**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 17 02:59:58 2012 Dec 17 03:26:50 Somebody remind me what "CC device" stands for. Dec 17 03:27:44 Charge Coupled Device? Dec 17 03:28:52 credit card Dec 17 03:28:59 http://maemo.org/community/council/2012-11-30_and_2012-12-07_council_meeting_minutes/ Dec 17 03:29:00 candy cane Dec 17 03:29:08 In relationship to the N9s and N950s that were handed out. Dec 17 03:29:34 Community Council Dec 17 03:30:11 oh Dec 17 03:30:23 cc might mean the NFC on the n9 Dec 17 03:31:04 which as I understand it requires a chip the n9 does not have - to pretend to be a nfc payment card Dec 17 03:31:31 as well as the cooperation of MasterCard/visa/... Dec 17 03:31:32 The devices that the Community Council distributed which caused a brew-ha-ha. Dec 17 03:31:36 oh Dec 17 03:31:42 nvm Dec 17 03:32:06 OK, thanks. Dec 17 03:51:47 DocScrutinizer: infobot joined! Dec 17 07:50:51 GeneralAntilles: coding competition iirc Dec 17 07:53:27 unclouded: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60526&page=3 might be a start Dec 17 07:56:16 unclouded: "import evolution" is the key Dec 17 07:58:35 nice idea. maybe I can get a small python script to add contacts Dec 17 07:58:52 please share when finished Dec 17 08:03:31 this is probably a better way. ruby-bdb could read the contact database OK but when I wrote a new contact to it and transferred it back to the N900 then eds hung Dec 17 09:29:29 is it possible to open any program "fullscreen", without hildon-status-menu? https://www.dropbox.com/s/rnizi7pcef3p34u/Screenshot-20121216-223805.png Dec 17 09:29:52 ps windows seems top be undecorated but i would like it to be fullscreen Dec 17 09:30:00 (and yeah, im not serious) Dec 17 10:04:42 mickname: some apps work full screen; see the browser, marble, etc Dec 17 10:24:05 what do I need to get python-evolution working? "evolution.ebook.list_addressbooks()" returns "None". I'm not running as root and have python-gnome2 installed. The following example suggests that no special initialisation is required: http://dev.mutt.org/trac/wiki/QueryCommand/EvolutionSearch Dec 17 10:29:35 unclouded: there is little bit different adressbook obaining as the default addressbook is accessible a little bit different way. Dec 17 10:30:11 I don't remember it. I have to take a look into eds source code ... Dec 17 10:33:21 ah ok. just by playing around I tried "evolution.ebook.open_addressbook('default')". does that sound right? Dec 17 10:37:01 I don't think so. Dec 17 10:37:15 http://pastebin.com/i94vFtSq Dec 17 10:37:50 The maemo usually goes through the last else (begin with char ^filename) Dec 17 10:38:17 It's maemo specific. Dec 17 10:38:30 I'm sorry on maemo it should work the way you mentioned. Dec 17 10:39:04 But maybe system instead of default ... I don't know how it's in python binded. Dec 17 10:40:23 addressbook/libebook-dbus/e-book.c (in eds source) Dec 17 10:40:31 I hope I remember this well. Dec 17 10:42:32 ok, cheers. i'll have a play and see what works Dec 17 10:42:51 And the default should be ok. Because it tries to find the default one and if none is exist then the system one is tried. Dec 17 10:43:50 (very similar function as for system addressbook) Dec 17 11:26:11 unclouded: see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=990571#post990571 Dec 17 11:26:43 ebook = evolution.ebook.open_addressbook("default") Dec 17 11:26:59 you need to be 'user' for it to work Dec 17 11:27:41 cheers, I'm getting the hang of this and writing a python script that looks quite similar Dec 17 11:28:49 although this one looks like it does a better job of command line arguments than I was going to Dec 17 11:30:32 I think my version of the above python thingie got even a few more tweaks, but i can't recall which ones Dec 17 11:31:32 where is it best to post when I'm done? I read that the wiki is read-only now? Dec 17 11:34:43 unclouded: drop it on tmo Dec 17 11:34:47 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/bin/contact Dec 17 11:34:54 for your convenience Dec 17 11:37:58 unclouded: (post on tmo) i'd suggest to add it to the thread as of above Dec 17 11:38:11 after all it's just the f^-1 Dec 17 11:38:22 aka inverse function Dec 17 11:43:44 unclouded: maybe you even could merge the two? Dec 17 11:45:04 that does make sense. no point in having several scripts to manage the addressbook from the command line Dec 17 11:58:23 btw I really don't get it why so many even devels suggest to invoke their python scripts like "python myscript.py" Dec 17 11:58:40 shebang line been invented for a reason after all Dec 17 12:02:25 docscrutinizer05, probably works better in windows? Dec 17 12:03:28 hahaha Dec 17 12:04:08 this rationale makes perfect sense for python scripts that clearly are meant to run on maemo5 only Dec 17 12:05:03 but you actually might have a point there, maybe those devels are the ones that came from windows and maybe even still using it as their main OS Dec 17 12:05:48 so the concept of executable scripts is somewhat strange to them Dec 17 12:15:22 though you can associate .py files with python in win and start them via double click Dec 17 12:15:32 and the shebangline is ignored by the python interpreter Dec 17 12:16:28 it has to, since that's the concept of shebang, the *whole* file gets interpreted by the interpreter from shebang Dec 17 12:25:25 merlin1991: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebang acctually the interpreter in shebang gets invoked with all the parameters in shebang, plus the filename itself as additional parameter Dec 17 12:28:46 err nonsense in wikipedia - ":" is NOT a comment, it's the null function Dec 17 12:28:58 DocScrutinizer05, it's posted to http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=60526&page=3. will look in to merging the two scripts tomorrow Dec 17 12:29:13 unclouded: nice :-) Dec 17 12:32:18 thanks for all the help! :) Dec 17 12:42:49 anyone else got problems logging into wiki.maemo.org right now? Dec 17 12:50:10 thp: err, got it fixed this morning? it's been borked since 2 months or more now Dec 17 12:50:59 CBA to even check Dec 17 12:51:41 me~CBA Dec 17 12:51:45 ~CBA Dec 17 12:51:45 i guess cba is Can't Be Arsed. Dec 17 13:08:02 MEH! wated time... >> A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "User::saveSettings". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry 'joerg_rw' for key 2 (apps.maemo.org)". << same as it "ever" was Dec 17 13:09:01 anybody got NO errors on wiki login? Dec 17 13:09:48 (and/or anonymous wiki edit ->save) Dec 17 13:10:19 s/wated/wasted/. Dec 17 13:10:44 So im making a tool for surgical replacement of mce valurs Dec 17 13:10:47 Values Dec 17 13:11:03 MohammadAG: old fart!! :-))) Dec 17 13:11:13 long time no see Dec 17 13:11:51 DocScrutinizer05, likewise :D Dec 17 13:12:11 we damn would need any available help from your side during those tough times Dec 17 13:12:32 http://pastebin.com/TQMPCaXr Dec 17 13:12:50 plan to use it in Harmattan's extended-power-menu postinst Dec 17 13:13:07 sed proved to be not advanced for the job Dec 17 13:13:14 hey, nice Dec 17 13:13:28 an augmented led-pattern installer Dec 17 13:13:45 led-pattern-editor for that Dec 17 13:13:52 I don't look at mce.ini's keys(!!!) Dec 17 13:13:56 well, sections Dec 17 13:14:04 [Display] etc Dec 17 13:14:09 :nod: Dec 17 13:14:22 I simply look for the key, and replace its value Dec 17 13:14:24 which *might* give you headache eventualy Dec 17 13:14:34 yeah, but not for the purpose I'm using it for Dec 17 13:14:48 only one possible occurrence for PowerKeyLongAction Dec 17 13:14:57 sure sure Dec 17 13:14:59 otherwise mce itself would go bonkers Dec 17 13:15:24 you pondered using existing ini-parser libs for that? Dec 17 13:15:47 they _would_ check for keys Dec 17 13:15:53 err sections Dec 17 13:15:58 whatever the name Dec 17 13:16:05 QSettings, but if you remember way back, it doesn't like comments Dec 17 13:16:15 yeah, that BS Dec 17 13:16:16 we tried it for hildon-desktop's transitions.ini Dec 17 13:16:18 :-/ Dec 17 13:16:22 it messed it up afair Dec 17 13:16:28 so forget my comment Dec 17 13:16:37 and mce.ini is a bit dangerous Dec 17 13:16:50 screw something up and bootloop the user's device :) Dec 17 13:16:56 hehe Dec 17 13:17:36 implemet a rescue fallback, resetting all edits when bootloop kicks in Dec 17 13:18:29 would be interesting for the CSSU, when I start that :P Dec 17 13:18:30 * DocScrutinizer05 feels reminded to windows system files security concept, and BURRPS Dec 17 13:18:37 err, start looking into that* Dec 17 13:19:14 anyway, rescueboot seems to do exactly that Dec 17 13:19:30 links in to bootmenu Dec 17 13:20:15 some other sections like events.d seems to have similar concepts Dec 17 13:21:02 MohammadAG: anyway, are you aware of the doomsday situation maemo at large is facing right now? Dec 17 13:21:19 looks like it's going fine :p Dec 17 13:21:26 BWAHAHA Dec 17 13:22:01 we (council, board) are doing our very best, but jury is still out on whether that's actually enough Dec 17 13:23:29 MohammadAG: anyway I'd appreciate very much to see you around on future council meetings in #maemo-meeting, each Friday evening Dec 17 13:23:52 ping me in any way besides IRC Dec 17 13:23:56 (if I'm not here) Dec 17 13:24:08 ever since I got rid of the iPhone I no longer have always-on push notifications Dec 17 13:32:32 how do I redirect stderr to a file? Dec 17 13:33:03 command 2>file Dec 17 13:38:02 thanks jon-kha Dec 17 13:38:04 err Dec 17 13:38:08 thanks jon_y Dec 17 13:39:21 np Dec 17 13:39:33 there was a way to perma redirect, but I forgot Dec 17 13:39:37 *forgot how Dec 17 13:40:06 close and open files from the shell and attach them to the descriptors Dec 17 13:40:44 jon_y, only need a temp solution, qDebug sends to stderr Dec 17 13:40:47 kind of why high security programs need to explicitly close and reopen stdout/err Dec 17 13:40:48 DocScrutinizer05, http://pastebin.com/mUjC3egR :) Dec 17 13:40:54 MohammadAG: man bash|less +'/^[^a-z]*Pipelines' Dec 17 13:41:06 that new line at the end bothers me though Dec 17 13:41:09 ok Dec 17 13:41:59 jon_y: (permanent way) in shellscript: exec 2>file Dec 17 13:42:25 ah yes, that Dec 17 13:43:55 bash is one of the better shells, I'm forced to use tcsh at work Dec 17 13:44:14 funky quoting system is always broken in tcsh Dec 17 13:44:19 eeeew Dec 17 13:44:40 "string\"" <- this is an error in tcsh Dec 17 13:44:46 unmatched " Dec 17 13:44:58 for some weird reason, when I started with linux, tcsh been default shell Dec 17 13:45:07 when was that? Dec 17 13:45:19 took me like 2 months to go SCREWDAT! and get bash Dec 17 13:45:34 when was tcsh ever default? Dec 17 13:45:38 err 199x Dec 17 13:45:43 ah Dec 17 13:45:57 I first used Linux around 2000 Dec 17 13:46:22 when started KDE? Dec 17 13:46:47 probably around 2005-ish Dec 17 13:46:54 noway Dec 17 13:46:59 or later Dec 17 13:47:10 kde3 maybe Dec 17 13:48:01 Founded October 14, 1996 Dec 17 13:48:14 I used kde3 for the first time was on Knoppix :) Dec 17 13:48:18 well, I guess I started before that Dec 17 13:48:39 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kde Dec 17 13:48:55 very much gnome before that since it was default on redhat based distros Dec 17 13:50:57 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSE_Linux_distributions#Origins so that's about the time where I started looking into linux (minix before) Dec 17 13:52:26 probably before some of you were born ;-D Dec 17 13:53:53 well, the Linux machines at work are SLES machines Dec 17 13:54:27 kernel 2.6.16 is the most bleeding edge :( Dec 17 13:54:35 or was it 2.6.18 Dec 17 13:54:50 dang, those 40 disks full of slackware, I recall and shudder Dec 17 13:54:52 glacial pace indeed Dec 17 13:55:49 wow, there is a SLES12 Dec 17 13:58:29 forced.. to.. use... tcsh :( Dec 17 13:58:32 and before linux there been true unix and AmigaOS Dec 17 13:58:35 cruel and unusual punishment. Dec 17 13:58:59 indeed Dec 17 13:59:21 jaska: EVERYBODY USES TCSH THERE Dec 17 13:59:26 they don't know any better Dec 17 13:59:29 in hell? Dec 17 13:59:35 ROTFL Dec 17 13:59:49 jaska: +1 Dec 17 14:00:03 also, I'm forced to use PHP Dec 17 14:00:23 yeah, it is kind of a hell hole Dec 17 14:00:29 well, I heard it's usefull for a certain class of problems Dec 17 14:00:38 (php) Dec 17 14:00:53 the thing about php is that when it errors out, you get a blank page Dec 17 14:01:00 no message whatsoever Dec 17 14:01:10 \o/ Dec 17 14:01:28 you have to make a support ticket to get the lazy ass admin to read the apache logs Dec 17 14:01:40 logs are lockdown tight that nobody else can read it Dec 17 14:01:41 ouch Dec 17 14:02:09 use your own local apache for development then? Dec 17 14:02:20 yeah, on my windows machine :| Dec 17 14:02:33 company laptop runs windows only Dec 17 14:02:33 mmmpff :x Dec 17 14:02:57 reminds me of my last and current job Dec 17 14:03:15 sometimes, even if you rsync the code over to the production machine, you still get a mysterious blank page :( Dec 17 14:03:27 *php code Dec 17 14:03:45 tribute to gates Dec 17 14:04:39 well, the worst thing is that I sometimes encounter Perl code that don't use strict Dec 17 14:04:56 cthulhu pops up when you upgrade the Perl interpreter Dec 17 14:05:15 Perl Critic should be mandatory Dec 17 14:05:46 and occasionally you find stupid C/C++ code written by shell script people Dec 17 14:05:58 great Dec 17 14:06:43 though decent shell script people are rare and also are capable of writing decent code in any language Dec 17 14:06:56 how stupid could you get to do system(string1 + std::string(argv[2])) in a sudo program Dec 17 14:07:40 lol Dec 17 14:07:52 the only reason they C++ is that they couldn't figure out how to concat in C Dec 17 14:08:12 and glib because they can't understand memory management Dec 17 14:09:15 ok, time to wave and run Dec 17 14:09:20 I'm lucky to be moving off maintaining a program that does that glib memory allocation, YET have input limits Dec 17 14:09:53 it has arbitrary input limits, yet uses dynamic memory :( Dec 17 14:10:22 I wonder what other adventures I'll have in 2013 Dec 17 14:10:45 MohammadAG: lazy bugger, /join #maemo-ssu !!! Dec 17 14:11:02 MohammadAG: what's wrong with your irc client? Dec 17 14:11:09 no autojoin? Dec 17 14:11:37 MohammadAG: you're still main maintainer of cssu-t Dec 17 14:14:23 DocScrutinizer05, my client is fine, znc goes down -> channels lost Dec 17 14:29:29 DocScrutinizer05: seems like it's not yet fixed. [...] from within function "User::saveSettings". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry 'thp' for key 2 (apps.maemo.org)". Dec 17 14:30:38 thp: see recent mail on community-ML from jaffa Dec 17 14:31:15 long hurting PITA Dec 17 14:31:38 and now bbl, for good Dec 17 17:05:44 heh. Got a call from someone requesting help upgrading their Lumia's OS. Dec 17 17:06:08 Zune is pretty horrible and confusing, well and also WinPho, it told him he needed Windows 8. Dec 17 17:06:34 Biggest issue though (and here it gets on-topic again) was his Lumia's USB port was loose :-) Dec 17 17:09:21 ShadowJK: I thought they made it rock solid after n900? Dec 17 17:10:13 to that I say: lol Dec 17 17:11:06 is reliable robust microUSB at all possible? =) Dec 17 17:12:02 the cool thing about the round plugs is that they're more or less self centering Dec 17 17:12:12 and they don't even stop working if you bend them Dec 17 17:15:16 yep Dec 17 17:15:37 * RST38h asks the Tentacled One to return the 2.5mm plug Dec 17 17:24:32 2.5mm for USB would be a charm if it wasn't for the USB2.0 requirements regarding symmetry and parasitic capacity, anf the ID pin Dec 17 17:31:05 Doc: I just want it for charging Dec 17 17:31:19 Doc: They can keep damn USB for data. Dec 17 17:32:06 Also, circular jacks are known to carry stereo sound *and* video, that is 3 wires + ground. Not bad for such a simple design. Dec 17 17:33:20 for charging nothing beats a pair of gold plated pads on case surface Dec 17 17:33:55 with a 'plug' with two pogopins and a magnet Dec 17 17:34:49 well, maybe inductive charging Dec 17 17:40:20 it happened again, current absorbed ~200mA with nothing running Dec 17 17:40:30 powertop reporting a lot of DMA wakeups Dec 17 17:40:34 what the shit Dec 17 17:42:39 DocScrutinizer: what the shit Dec 17 17:43:22 it wasn't bluetooth, it wasn't the modem, it wasn't wifi Dec 17 17:43:32 ifconfig wlan0 down Dec 17 17:43:32 ? Dec 17 17:43:45 ShadowJK: hmm, i actually haven't checked Dec 17 17:43:48 then offline cellular internets Dec 17 17:44:04 i stopped sscd at one point Dec 17 17:44:08 and stopped bluetoothd Dec 17 17:44:23 ...maybe that didn't necessarily stop the cellmo? Dec 17 17:45:22 wlan is sometimes left active even though it looks disconnected in gui :) Dec 17 17:46:06 hm, i haven't actually disconnected the wifi connection this morning Dec 17 17:47:15 but what about the high DMA? Dec 17 17:48:26 it was like 2000 Dec 17 18:06:31 ShadowJK: could the uSD swap cause this? Dec 17 18:08:14 never happened to me Dec 17 18:08:30 Usually mysterius powerdraws have been either wifi or cellular Dec 17 18:08:42 they both tend to get stuck in lowsignal conditions for me Dec 17 18:30:49 yep Dec 17 18:32:16 radio stacks are definitely not recovering well from a few certain state transitions Dec 17 18:33:20 seems to me that some state transitions have no timeout Dec 17 18:33:38 ShadowJK: doing ifconfig wlan0 down would fix that, right? Dec 17 18:34:05 that and maybe rmmod wl1251 Dec 17 18:35:47 wl12xx actually Dec 17 18:47:56 * ShadowJK 'd try ifconfig wlan0 down first Dec 17 18:48:16 also because that codepath probably has more testing than rmmod codepath ;p Dec 17 18:55:30 I'd think they are complementary Dec 17 18:55:56 you probably can't rmmod with if up Dec 17 18:57:10 and at least for pre-PR1.1(?) it been notorious that WLAN eats battery like mad when not associated to an AP, until you'd rmmod wl12xx Dec 17 18:57:30 prolly a bug in wl12xx.ko Dec 17 19:04:16 the origin and birth of all those auto-disconnect tools btw, in my book Dec 17 19:06:09 nowadays they should be more or less of arguable usefulness, except for inbound IP traffic via GPRS (pings etc) which you can't stop in any other way than tearing down the APN of GPRS Dec 17 19:06:54 which I doubt any of those auto-disconnectors does Dec 17 19:09:45 frals: on topic - is fmms tearing down the existing APN connection to establish the MMS connection, or did you manage to find a way to have concurrent APNs active on BB5 cmt? Dec 17 19:10:29 concurrent Dec 17 19:10:35 coooool Dec 17 19:11:14 I gather that happend with a truckload of help from ISI guys? Dec 17 19:13:56 just needed a pointer from one of the guys there, it was already implemented in the stack Dec 17 19:13:59 or is this wireless modem API spec actually so much to the point that it allows concurrent APNs to get set up and activated Dec 17 19:14:11 :-) Dec 17 19:14:36 iirc AT cmd set according to 3GPP allows up to 4 Dec 17 19:16:48 damn, this system (maemo5) had - and still has - such an amazing potential that just rots due to missing documentation Dec 17 19:16:51 some operators dont allow it thou Dec 17 19:17:55 recently I heard stskeeps sighing "If only Nokia had opened up ICD2!" Dec 17 19:18:52 he considered it the more functional alternative to networkmanager and whatnot else available out there Dec 17 19:19:08 I tend to agree Dec 17 19:20:52 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders how long a porduct has to be EOL until Nokia's lawyers declare all documentation and related stuff non-relevant for further business and just allow to dump it to some rapidshare or git or whatever Dec 17 19:21:11 without any further inspection or approvement Dec 17 19:24:14 Nokia: consider that it's *deletion* of data that costs energy (see wikipedia: "entropy") - so please just move it to a publish storage, think green, save our environment! Dec 17 19:24:24 public* Dec 17 19:28:16 DocScrutinizer05: i'm not sure that that's how it works Dec 17 19:29:16 orly? ;-P Dec 17 19:30:21 or did you mean my rationale regarding enery<->info convertability? I could try to find out ho many Joule worth of energy is contained in one bit Dec 17 19:30:29 how many* Dec 17 19:30:43 How about half a bit? =) Dec 17 19:30:44 no, I'n NOT e*_ Dec 17 19:31:05 ...as we are already in the metaphysical territory... Dec 17 19:31:23 RST38h: like with energy you have a Plank quantum for info as well Dec 17 19:31:42 Well... you do not really know Dec 17 19:31:45 and no, that's absolutely non-metaphysical Dec 17 19:32:03 See, you are thinking digital terms Dec 17 19:32:29 we're thinking information Dec 17 19:32:48 a non-quantized amount of information is impossible to have, and impossible to transfer Dec 17 19:33:01 But there are all kinds of information storage devices which contain tangled data Dec 17 19:33:20 See "associative memory" Dec 17 19:33:22 that's just compression Dec 17 19:33:36 Well, for a sysadmin, everything is compression Dec 17 19:33:55 But what if the input is analogue and the output is analogue and there is a neural network in between? Dec 17 19:34:14 Or some other phenomenon that stores sum of states? Dec 17 19:34:40 you have a physical loss of precision at *some* point Dec 17 19:34:56 there you can quantify Dec 17 19:35:10 kerio: You can't talk about "precision" without defining domain first Dec 17 19:35:50 in discrete domain you have got finite sets of bits that you sysadmins call "integers" Dec 17 19:36:14 they are not really integers in math sense, because they are a subset of the integer set Dec 17 19:36:22 1 bit of entropy frees a certain amount of other energy though. It's clearly defined. I'm not totally sure this http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=convert+1+bit+to+joule is already what I'm searching for, but the highest entropy is in a filled storage and the lowest entropy in a all-zeroes storage Dec 17 19:37:43 Doc, you did notice Wolfram telling you that "bits and joules are not compatible", didn't you? Dec 17 19:37:45 and that's the reason this little daemon that opens the microscopic door to let fast water molecules to the right chanber and only slow molecules to the left, well it doesn't work since that daemon needs *energy* to **forget** what he just learned about speed of that molecule Dec 17 19:38:35 Doc: Now, replace molecules with electrons or photons, and go crazy =) Dec 17 19:38:37 RST38h: sure I noticed that, but did you see the words "entropy2 and "Joule" in the formula below? Dec 17 19:38:43 yeah Dec 17 19:38:55 I think poor engine is trying to make SOME sense of the query Dec 17 19:39:19 But the query is still invalid without specifying how you represent bits Dec 17 19:40:30 Oh well, enough metaphysics, sleepy time. Dec 17 19:40:31 RST38h: fast and slow water photons??? .oO(ªÐ€Ł©®) Dec 17 19:41:00 Doc: there are plank time and plank distance btw Dec 17 19:41:17 RST38h: nope, you don't get it. Entropy is about pure info, irrespective of representation Dec 17 19:41:20 Doc: in case you want to ponder on that world-is-a-simulation thing ;) Dec 17 19:41:50 Doc: You just used molecules, didn't you? Here is your representation Dec 17 19:42:21 MEH! Dec 17 19:42:21 I mean, yes, there is entropy in info theory and there is entropy in thermodynamics. Now, are they the same thing? =) Dec 17 19:43:08 RST38h: a cleared storage contains potential energy Dec 17 19:45:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_demon Dec 17 19:46:23 >>However, due to the connection between thermodynamic entropy and information entropy, this also meant that the recorded measurement must not be erased. << Dec 17 19:46:46 since erasure eats energy Dec 17 19:47:08 just as much energy as you could've possibly harvested by that daemon Dec 17 19:48:04 ergo: 1 bit has a clearly defined amount of energetic equivalent Dec 17 19:48:17 no matter how you2represent" it Dec 17 19:48:24 no matter how you "represent" it Dec 17 19:49:05 neither the representation (instance) of the info nor that of the energy is relevant Dec 17 19:50:38 >>Erasing information is a thermodynamically irreversible process that increases the entropy of a system<< Dec 17 19:51:07 by decreasing the local entropy in the storage Dec 17 19:58:51 anyway no matter what wolfram says about compatibility between bit and Joule, a 4.1E-21 Joule/bit sound about right to me Dec 17 19:58:57 heh Dec 17 19:59:03 at 300K though Dec 17 20:03:37 RST38h: never mess with a physics prof about intriguing physics niche cases Dec 17 20:03:55 odds are you're not that involved in the topic as your opponent Dec 17 20:04:15 hehe Dec 17 20:08:12 >>Regarding Landauer's principle, the minimum energy dissipated by deleting information was experimentally measured by Eric Lutz et al. in 2012.[11] << Dec 17 20:09:11 [11]^ jobs (2012-03-07). "The unavoidable cost of computation revealed : Nature News & Comment". Nature.com. Retrieved 2012-09-07. Dec 17 20:11:15 so pretty please Nokia, don't increase entropy of our universe, just release complete source code of maemo instead of deleting it eventually when nobody can recall what it been for Dec 17 20:12:49 somehow i don't think that the entropy generated by sending the source somewhere is less than the entropy generated by deleting it Dec 17 20:13:05 http://www.nature.com/news/the-unavoidable-cost-of-computation-revealed-1.10186 Dec 17 20:13:13 kerio: then you don;t know what entropy is Dec 17 20:13:18 kerio: SSSHHHHHH! Dec 17 20:13:35 DocScrutinizer05: oh, sorry Dec 17 20:17:14 DocScrutinizer05: isn't Maxwell's demon being dead some kind of old news? Dec 17 20:17:35 sure Dec 17 20:17:49 aah, those journalists :D Dec 17 20:18:03 and since it is and I knew why, I was so certain about me being right in my dispute with RST38h Dec 17 20:18:05 ;-D Dec 17 20:19:07 heh, seems I am late for the party :D:D:D. I just read the backscroll Dec 17 20:19:58 Landauer's Limit Dec 17 20:20:46 If I (an EE concerned about chip building) wouldn't ever have heard about it, I should serach for another job Dec 17 20:23:15 DocScrutinizer05: how close are we to that limit, in current circuits? Dec 17 20:24:17 >>Meanwhile, in fledgling quantum computers, which exploit the rules of quantum physics to achieve greater processing power, this limitation is already being confronted. “Logic processing in quantum computers already is well within the Landauer regime,” says physicist Seth Lloyd of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology in Cambridge. “One has to worry about Landauer's principle all the time.”<< Dec 17 20:25:51 kerio: in silicon chips that work with thousands of electrons to store a single bit, we're not yet close Dec 17 20:26:02 Any tips on soldering? Dec 17 20:26:09 sure Dec 17 20:26:15 Need to solder ID pin with GND Dec 17 20:26:18 don't burn your fingers ;-P Dec 17 20:26:25 And the cable before that, broke it by mistake Dec 17 20:26:59 on a more serious comment: don't inhale the fumes Dec 17 20:27:38 and practice practice practice Dec 17 20:27:42 Besides that? Dec 17 20:27:53 The practice part is hard Dec 17 20:27:55 more practice Dec 17 20:29:16 most important two bits (well, 3) of soldering: use right temperature of iron, and heat both objects you want to connect. And use high quality solder Dec 17 20:29:44 think of the entropy you created to share those three bits! Dec 17 20:29:51 and gain, dn't inhlae the fumes Dec 17 20:30:00 and a #4: don't move the solder joint until it's completely solid and cold Dec 17 20:30:01 err Dec 17 20:30:10 and again, don't inhale the fumes Dec 17 20:30:45 also it's handy to have one of those solder removal tools in case stuff goes the wrongdirection Dec 17 20:31:19 #1 don't pick up/catch the iron by the hot end. Dec 17 20:31:29 even if it's 'off'. Dec 17 20:31:30 too hot soldering iron will burn the flux in your solder and even the solder itself. Too low temperature will cause you to heat stuff too long and so distruct it Dec 17 20:33:01 #2 solder with your pants on Dec 17 20:33:30 that one is also important. Dec 17 20:33:51 #3 don't put the soldering iron flat on the table because "it doesn't touch the desk anyways" Dec 17 20:34:34 #4 don't try to catch it when it falls after having violated #3 Dec 17 20:35:30 honestly, just practice practice practice. You'll learn all of the rest no other way Dec 17 20:35:49 except maybe that bit with the fumes ;-P Dec 17 20:36:11 for that look at me X-P Dec 17 20:36:37 420 BLAZE IT Dec 17 20:37:21 oooh!! NEVER use cheap flux!! Dec 17 20:37:44 DocScrutinizer05: those fumes... are they the nice kind that gets you high? Dec 17 20:38:11 kerio: you're better off with glue ;) Dec 17 20:38:39 unless it's explicitly rated "electronic flux" it's more of a etching stuff than any help for your circuit Dec 17 20:39:03 kerio: only if you love lead in your brain Dec 17 20:39:13 who doesn't? Dec 17 20:39:17 so yep, glue is waaaay better Dec 17 20:41:39 MohammadAG: probably when you pay as much for your first solder wire as you pay for your first dirt cheap soldering iron (30W), you're on the safe side Dec 17 20:42:20 30-130W Dec 17 20:42:46 * DocScrutinizer05 thinks there must be a billion and one youtube videos titled "soldering for dummies" or the like Dec 17 20:43:11 Looked at those Dec 17 20:43:19 But it all looks simpler in vids Dec 17 20:44:51 I found the ID pin, its not connected Dec 17 20:45:07 But i broke pin 3 Dec 17 20:45:19 Well, whatever was connected to it Dec 17 20:45:21 anyway when there's any noticable delay in melting soldering wiro on iron's tip, it's too cold. When solder bubbles, "cooks" and smokes a lot it's probably too hot. When solder gets "brittle" while on hot tip, it definitely is way too hot Dec 17 20:46:29 remove solder from tip with a wet sponge Dec 17 20:46:41 well, damp sponge Dec 17 20:48:04 if solder falls off from tip instead of melting on it and sticking to it, get a better tip, the one you got is uter crap Dec 17 20:48:19 hm eudev looks interesting Dec 17 20:48:23 or you forgot the sponge thing Dec 17 20:49:37 MohammadAG: and honestly, practice on a at least 10 arbitrary thin wires before you try fixing real stuff Dec 17 20:50:16 100% guarantee that you ruin your first 5 solder joints and the objects you try to solder Dec 17 20:52:38 after ~50 joints you might call yourself a beginner, depending on your talent a promising or a desperate one Dec 17 20:57:24 MohammadAG: soldering in one sentence: clean your object to solder, place tip with a tiny bit of solder to both object you want to join same time, to heat them both up, then feed a bit of solder to *the* *objects* NOT to tip, objects need to be hot enough to make the solder wire melt, stop feeding solder when both objects are connected / covered with one small blob of molten solder. Done Dec 17 20:57:54 remove solder iron and wire and let the joint cool down *without* *moving* it Dec 17 21:04:42 the whole process mustn't take longer than ~10s. If it doesn't work in 10s, let cool down completely and start from very beginning Dec 17 21:05:06 DocScrutinizer05++ Dec 17 21:05:19 at least someone who knows how it's done correctly Dec 17 21:05:39 a lot of guys would melt the solder on the tip etc :p Dec 17 21:05:45 well, I'm practicing it since, duh... 43 years? Dec 17 21:05:59 46? Dec 17 21:06:01 I am not that old yet ;p Dec 17 21:06:23 but soldering since my 12th or smth :} Dec 17 21:06:47 6th or 7th Dec 17 21:06:57 but nowadays its not the soldering but the firmware that breaks :( Dec 17 21:07:01 my n900 still acting up ... Dec 17 21:07:15 hmm Dec 17 21:07:21 now its like: Dec 17 21:07:25 pull battery Dec 17 21:07:27 start Dec 17 21:07:38 led controller work + keyboard backligt works fine Dec 17 21:07:44 leave it on for a day (in stdby) Dec 17 21:07:57 keyboard backlight works only on the left hand side of the keyboard Dec 17 21:08:06 duh Dec 17 21:08:06 and the led itself doesnt work anymore :/ Dec 17 21:08:33 duh? Dec 17 21:08:37 you tried to directly hammer the sysnodes? Dec 17 21:08:55 no Dec 17 21:09:05 but I guess its software messing it up after a while Dec 17 21:09:16 quite unusual Dec 17 21:09:18 so a full reflash could possibly fix it? :/ Dec 17 21:09:24 maybe Dec 17 21:09:31 you got fcam? Dec 17 21:09:42 powerkernel? Dec 17 21:09:44 did have, removed it a while ago Dec 17 21:09:47 powerkernel yes Dec 17 21:09:55 :-/ Dec 17 21:10:16 powerkernel *had* strange stuff in sys for lp5523 Dec 17 21:10:19 after fcam things improved a little (before the led was dead even after pulling battery) Dec 17 21:10:37 fcam does strange stuff to the non-strange sys nodes of lp5523 Dec 17 21:10:38 strange thing is ... this happens *now* Dec 17 21:10:49 while I run the same software for ... probably half a year :/ Dec 17 21:11:11 honestly to me this doesn't exactly sound like sw problem Dec 17 21:11:27 mompls Dec 17 21:11:45 DocScrutinizer05, what? kernel-power has no patch for lp5523 Dec 17 21:12:16 Pali: it *had* Dec 17 21:12:35 I know you removed it eventually Dec 17 21:12:58 $ git log | grep lp5 --> empty Dec 17 21:14:00 now I looked into full diff history and only nokia patches has substring lp5 Dec 17 21:14:45 Gh0sty: for f in /sys/class/leds/lp5523:kb*/; do echo 50 >${f}led_current; echo 100 >${f}brightness; done Dec 17 21:15:12 and what should that do? Dec 17 21:15:19 light it up like a christmastree? :p Dec 17 21:15:21 shine up all 6 kbd leds Dec 17 21:16:03 only if you don't enter on device (key-release event) Dec 17 21:16:20 if you enter it on device, prepend a `sleep 10` Dec 17 21:16:31 DocScrutinizer05, ok I found some *disabled* leds-lp5523.diff patch in git Dec 17 21:16:43 s/git/git history/ Dec 17 21:16:44 Pali meant: DocScrutinizer05, ok I found some *disabled* leds-lp5523.diff patch in git history Dec 17 21:16:45 Pali: toldya Dec 17 21:17:38 Ok, so my first practice attempt failed Dec 17 21:17:45 I knocked off some chip Dec 17 21:18:25 lol DocScrutinizer05 Dec 17 21:18:29 you know what that did? Dec 17 21:18:36 DocScrutinizer05: how do you stand this shit Dec 17 21:18:40 now the right hand side is lit up Dec 17 21:18:44 and the left is out :p Dec 17 21:19:12 when executing the command however the whole keyboard lights up shortly Dec 17 21:19:25 hmm Dec 17 21:19:38 from the moment I touch the "screen activate" button Dec 17 21:19:42 its again the left side Dec 17 21:19:58 Gh0sty: you maybe got a pre-summit (very early proto) N900? Dec 17 21:20:08 not that I know of Dec 17 21:20:14 bought it in a regular store Dec 17 21:20:20 then nope Dec 17 21:20:28 reflash Dec 17 21:20:31 mce borked Dec 17 21:20:50 or something weird interfering with mce on lp5523 Dec 17 21:20:58 hmm Dec 17 21:21:03 can i do selective backup? Dec 17 21:21:10 like ... only contacts or something ... Dec 17 21:21:24 sure, that's what maemo backup gives you Dec 17 21:21:32 ah yes Dec 17 21:21:34 right Dec 17 21:21:46 so used to dumping the whole thing with backupmenu :p Dec 17 21:21:51 hehe Dec 17 21:22:26 you might want to do a lsof|grep lp55 before Dec 17 21:22:53 no modules like that Dec 17 21:22:59 though that not even shows mce on my system Dec 17 21:23:02 ergh no open stuff like that :p Dec 17 21:23:54 modinfo leds_lp5523 Dec 17 21:24:18 srcversion: 6C5B926F43DDD08CE15A802 Dec 17 21:24:30 http://pastebin.com/qAXL8hRz Dec 17 21:25:12 http://pastebin.com/mwzkjn1A Dec 17 21:26:20 I honestly hope KP52 doesn't fsckup I2C again Dec 17 21:26:37 smeels Dec 17 21:26:41 smells* Dec 17 21:27:06 I could try to downgrade kernel again I guess Dec 17 21:27:07 oops KP51 Dec 17 21:27:09 lemme see Dec 17 21:27:20 2.6.28.10-power51 Dec 17 21:28:35 this *very* much feels like a hw issue, at least something like I2C kernel driver fckdup, like it been in KP48(?) Dec 17 21:29:30 what should i install Dec 17 21:29:34 kernel-maemo ? Dec 17 21:29:40 yup Dec 17 21:30:08 unless you already gone thumby Dec 17 21:30:31 thumby? Dec 17 21:30:37 cssu-thumb Dec 17 21:31:29 thombified system Dec 17 21:31:42 ;-) Dec 17 21:31:58 If you were, you'd know Dec 17 21:32:48 honestly, reflash stock PR1.3 and test Dec 17 21:33:15 then go back to current system via BM and act accordingly to what you found Dec 17 21:33:46 dammit Dec 17 21:33:51 now its stuck in reboot loop Dec 17 21:33:52 fuck :( Dec 17 21:34:01 keep in mind that you need to install same KP51 before you restore from BM Dec 17 21:34:29 you flashed stock kernel but forgot the modules? Dec 17 21:35:11 ah thats not a dependency Dec 17 21:35:13 grzm Dec 17 21:35:51 great Dec 17 21:35:53 flash KP51 via flasher, to recover Dec 17 21:35:59 bootmenu but no keyboard to work :( Dec 17 21:36:22 where do i find kp51 for flasher? Dec 17 21:36:31 err Dec 17 21:36:46 Pali: ^^ Dec 17 21:36:59 ~kp Dec 17 21:37:00 well, kp is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85665 Dec 17 21:37:39 flash stock 2.6.28 version Dec 17 21:37:57 he got kp51 modules Dec 17 21:38:21 also depmod was called? Dec 17 21:38:26 I gather flashing stock kernel is what he did Dec 17 21:38:38 then bootlooped Dec 17 21:38:59 here is flasher deb package: http://maemo.org/packages/view/kernel-power-flasher/ Dec 17 21:39:13 so what? Dec 17 21:39:17 just undeb it and flash kernel fiasco image Dec 17 21:39:22 that's for systems that don't bootloop Dec 17 21:39:27 aaah Dec 17 21:39:50 $ dpkg -x package.deb unpacked_dir Dec 17 21:39:57 Gh0sty: ^^^ Dec 17 21:40:17 $ flasher-3.5 -F unpacked_dir/boot/.fiasco -f -R Dec 17 21:40:35 Gh0sty: ^^^ Dec 17 21:41:50 checking ... Dec 17 21:44:20 DocScrutinizer05, any news from nokia/nemein about migration? Dec 17 21:44:27 kernel-power-flasher_2.6.28-10power51_armel.deb Dec 17 21:44:38 dpkg -x gives a dir with only etc and usr Dec 17 21:44:39 no boot Dec 17 21:44:42 Pali: nope Dec 17 21:45:35 Gh0sty, sry, you need package kernel-power Dec 17 21:45:40 not -flasher Dec 17 21:46:24 ah k Dec 17 21:46:34 hmm i had 51 not 51r1 I guess :p Dec 17 21:46:52 you should use r1 Dec 17 21:47:04 yeah but if I did have none r1 Dec 17 21:47:08 can I flash with r1 ? Dec 17 21:47:13 it has same vermagic Dec 17 21:47:26 only suffix in deb package version Dec 17 21:48:53 Pali meant: "yes" Dec 17 21:55:45 nope Dec 17 21:55:56 it uninstalled all the kernel-power stuff I guess? :/ Dec 17 21:56:49 its not rebooting Dec 17 21:56:55 just shuts down now :/ Dec 17 21:57:08 see the white nokia screen for 10 sec Dec 17 21:57:12 and black Dec 17 21:58:46 yay Dec 17 21:59:05 dang, flash PR1.3 stock Dec 17 21:59:09 test Dec 17 21:59:13 restore BM Dec 17 21:59:58 s/restore BM/err scratch that, install KP51, then restore from BM/ Dec 17 22:00:00 DocScrutinizer05 meant: err scratch that, install KP51, then restore from BM Dec 17 22:10:22 ohnoes! Dec 17 22:10:26 the hands with sound! Dec 17 22:10:34 thats been a long time i have seen that :p Dec 17 22:21:12 hmm with the default repos from a pr flash is there a quick way (through application install?) to get the testing etc repos? Dec 17 22:22:31 just install cssu-configuration ? Dec 17 22:23:04 first install cssu Dec 17 22:23:18 hmm cssu is not in the default repos? Dec 17 22:25:27 no Dec 17 22:29:20 I dont get soldering Dec 17 22:48:32 Gh0sty: first test your kbd LEDs and stuff, hell fire and brimstone Dec 17 22:50:29 yeah now it works :) Dec 17 22:50:46 but we'll see after the cssu upgrade and not going to restore the backups yet ... Dec 17 22:52:08 cssu is to be installed like instructed on Dec 17 22:52:10 ~cssu Dec 17 22:52:11 cssu is, like, http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU Dec 17 22:52:50 don't do weird '1337' stuff like manually installing catalogs/repos or anything! Dec 17 22:53:11 meh Dec 17 22:53:22 do it, just be prepared to occasionally reflash :) Dec 17 22:53:35 kerio: shutup Dec 17 22:54:24 k :( Dec 17 22:54:45 kerio: you know pretty well that there's an enabler to run Dec 17 22:55:04 oh, you meant to install cssu itself? Dec 17 22:55:09 i thought you meant in general Dec 17 22:55:13 nah Dec 17 22:56:16 [2012-12-17 23:52:08] cssu is to be installed like instructed on Dec 17 22:56:18 [2012-12-17 23:52:10] ~cssu Dec 17 22:56:24 [2012-12-17 23:52:50] don't do weird '1337' stuff like manually installing catalogs/repos or anything! Dec 17 22:57:53 MohammadAG: try coating a normal installation wire (~1.5mm diameter) with tin Dec 17 22:58:21 you'll learn a lot about how solder/tin behaves Dec 17 22:59:13 and actually coating wire ends is a good preparation to connecting them by soldering Dec 17 23:00:31 once you feel comfortable with coating 1.5mm wire so it looks not all messy but has a nice smooth coating, go and do same with 0.2mm diameter wire Dec 17 23:01:19 then solder one of the 0.2mm ends to a 1.5mm end. Both of the ends coated before Dec 17 23:01:21 actually is there no way to flash immediatly a PR 1.4 (PR 1.3 + CSSU or something) Dec 17 23:01:30 no Dec 17 23:01:53 why no image based updates? :/ Dec 17 23:02:07 you flash 1.3, then install CSSU according to installation instructions on http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU Dec 17 23:02:15 i know just did it Dec 17 23:02:30 was just wondering if there were no new PR's from the community or smth Dec 17 23:02:42 Gh0sty: making eMMC images is a pain in the ass Dec 17 23:02:42 why no images? well, mainly because nobody prepared an image yet Dec 17 23:02:55 Gh0sty: so you have to keep everything in the rootfs until the first boot Dec 17 23:02:58 but then it might not fit Dec 17 23:03:17 yep, that too Dec 17 23:03:19 unless we remove something from the image itself Dec 17 23:03:46 also, we have to doublecheck that nothing that CSSU provides installs directly in /opt Dec 17 23:04:29 otoh, if we just disregard fiasco images we can also ignore the stupid maemo-optify-runonce Dec 17 23:08:05 hmm Dec 17 23:08:20 my kernel is after cssu testing install still power59 Dec 17 23:08:23 50* Dec 17 23:08:25 not 51 Dec 17 23:10:35 Its more legal issues Dec 17 23:10:54 DocScrutinizer05: trying to solder anything makes me break it Dec 17 23:10:56 Gh0sty: your kernel after installing CSSU should still be stock Dec 17 23:11:12 well i already updated it before installing cssu :p Dec 17 23:11:13 I tried soldering something on top of a pin, the pin broke off cause of heat Dec 17 23:11:23 but how do i get power 51 now? :/ Dec 17 23:11:45 ~kp Dec 17 23:11:47 from memory, kp is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=85665 Dec 17 23:11:49 How long should i leave the gun to heat up before I start trying to solder Dec 17 23:12:03 MohammadAG: GUN??? :-o Dec 17 23:12:24 Its an iron shaped like a gun Dec 17 23:12:40 dafaq, that's just for killing stuff Dec 17 23:12:53 not even Dec 17 23:12:55 *I* Dec 17 23:13:05 can solder with such a gun Dec 17 23:13:22 Why? Dec 17 23:13:29 imprecision Dec 17 23:13:31 it's a friggin monster Dec 17 23:13:39 Its very light Dec 17 23:13:58 forget it Dec 17 23:14:16 you can't solder electronic stuff with a gun Dec 17 23:14:40 if only because you need to hold your 'iron' like a pencil Dec 17 23:14:57 I could do that Dec 17 23:15:12 The "barrel" isnt that small :p Dec 17 23:16:27 then I probably have no clue what type of 'gun' you're talking about, but honestly I suggest to get a proper 25..35W soldering iron Dec 17 23:16:29 http://db.tt/8cPBTguI Dec 17 23:16:53 MohammadAG: that thing is huge Dec 17 23:17:13 meh, forget dat shite Dec 17 23:17:55 get this http://www.reichelt.de/?ARTICLE=54203;PROVID=2028;&utm_source=Preisvergleich&utm_medium=CPC&utm_campaign=Preisvergleich_google_feed&gclid=CJGlwrPJorQCFUFb3godfRYAPQ Dec 17 23:18:43 or one of those: http://www.reichelt.de/ERSA-Loetkolben/2/index.html?;ACTION=2;LA=3;GROUP=D212;GROUPID=549;START=0;OFFSET=16;SHOW=1;SID=12UM@oFH8AAAIAAGIDHqscc47b96fe5e9092d40df622d634e3a88 Dec 17 23:19:20 even that one http://www.reichelt.de/Diverse-Loetkolben/KOLBEN-FP-30/3/index.html?;ACTION=3;LA=2;ARTICLE=89497;GROUPID=4136;artnr=KOLBEN+FP+30;SID=12UM@oFH8AAAIAAGIDHqscc47b96fe5e9092d40df622d634e3a88 Dec 17 23:22:29 http://www.ebay.de/itm/Lotkolben-Soldering-Iron-30-W-VTS25LF-/190540176510?pt=DE_Haus_Garten_Heimwerker_Elektrowerkzeuge&hash=item2c5d145c7e Dec 17 23:24:40 http://www.ebay.de/itm/HQ-Soldering-iron-for-220-V-Lotkolben-lot-kolben-loten-Kolben-220V-Keramik-/360530522777?pt=DE_Haus_Garten_Heimwerker_Elektrowerkzeuge&hash=item53f14b3299#ht_875wt_1139 Dec 17 23:24:54 find a bin to dump that gun in Dec 17 23:25:28 well, it's still good to solder bigger stuff Dec 17 23:25:54 dump a gun in a bin? Dec 17 23:26:35 actually forget that last one I linked above, it is already too strong with its 50W (unless you use it with a dimmer to reduce power) Dec 17 23:26:56 teotwaki: to get rid of the evidence Dec 17 23:26:56 teotwaki: http://db.tt/8cPBTguI Dec 17 23:28:26 heh Dec 17 23:29:20 Bah, im pissed Dec 17 23:29:26 I was going to say: "Disassemble the main parts of the gun, duck tape them together in a sticknade, go to an international truck stop and throw the nades on top of a few trucks" Dec 17 23:29:34 best way I know of to dispose of a handgun. Dec 17 23:30:30 sticknade: wrap a number of small items together into a small shape (flat, preferably) held together with ducktape, and with ducktape on the outside, so that when you throw it, it sticks. Dec 17 23:30:44 n Dec 17 23:31:12 MohammadAG: here's what I thought you're using: http://www.circuitspecialists.com/j-100.html Dec 17 23:31:33 haha Dec 17 23:31:46 isn't that enough to blow out any circuitry near the tip? Dec 17 23:32:22 yep Dec 17 23:32:50 that shit starts to glow red after a few seconds Dec 17 23:32:56 http://db.tt/8vh8HDTf Dec 17 23:34:39 yay Dec 17 23:34:56 now that looks exactly like soldered with http://db.tt/8cPBTguI Dec 17 23:36:04 at least that huge ugly tin blob over the black patch (chip) is the best I could do with that gun Dec 17 23:36:05 Woo, burned finger Dec 17 23:36:17 toldya you don't! Dec 17 23:38:24 MohammadAG: honestly, stop that. Get a nice decent soldering iron for a 10 bucks tomorrow Dec 17 23:38:54 will save you lots of woes and frustration Dec 17 23:39:46 Awesome Dec 17 23:39:53 I soldered the usb cable Dec 17 23:39:58 I'll second doc on this one Dec 17 23:40:05 This was $20 :p Dec 17 23:40:10 the best way to get scared of soldering is to use a crappy soldering iron. Dec 17 23:40:21 :nod: Dec 17 23:40:31 also, for fuck's sake, clean your soldering iron after every single drip. Dec 17 23:41:06 just have a big wad of toilet paper, or a moist sponge and rub off any excess off the tip. You'll thank me in 3 years, and you still use the same iron. Dec 17 23:41:41 not THAT one Dec 17 23:41:44 and don't use your mom's kitchen sponge. She'll kill you; you'll have killed her sponge. Dec 17 23:42:14 Don't use the toilet/litterbox sponge either. Heat doesn't play well with poo. Dec 17 23:43:04 paper tissue is just fine Dec 17 23:43:36 Thoughts http://db.tt/GYvWURZr Dec 17 23:43:38 yeah, but the moist/cold sponge helps with the initial burns, they are inevitable. Dec 17 23:43:42 toilet paper (though.... IL, MohammadAG, I dunno) Dec 17 23:44:09 You think they don't have toilet paper in IL? Dec 17 23:44:26 Oh we do, i assure you Dec 17 23:44:35 I know some regions on this earth they don't use toilet paper Dec 17 23:44:39 Maybe they use shells. Dec 17 23:44:45 nah, water Dec 17 23:45:22 guess why you don't use your left hand for holding food, in e.g. marocco Dec 17 23:46:19 We use water too Dec 17 23:46:25 But there's toilet paper Dec 17 23:46:33 Anyway, thoughts on the cable? Dec 17 23:46:43 And how the heck do i test it Dec 17 23:47:02 Well, that's the problem with USB. Dec 17 23:47:15 hard to tell from that photo Dec 17 23:48:12 It charges the N86 Dec 17 23:48:15 IF I had to utter a notion to save my life, i'd say 'looks fishy' Dec 17 23:48:56 that's a micro-USB plug? Dec 17 23:49:05 to the N86? Dec 17 23:49:55 Yes Dec 17 23:49:55 Why I weep when I see we went from serial ports to usb... serial ports were optoisolated Dec 17 23:50:00 No data Dec 17 23:50:00 looks like a micro-B Dec 17 23:50:11 Micro B indeed Dec 17 23:50:12 mess with a usb port, and you'll fry your mobo Dec 17 23:50:30 mess with an rs232, and you'll fry... the rs232 controller, at best. Dec 17 23:50:42 Tried with N900 Dec 17 23:50:49 It shows the usb dialog Dec 17 23:50:51 rs232 rarely ever is opto-isolated Dec 17 23:50:59 MAX232 very common Dec 17 23:51:02 DocScrutinizer05: was it the parallel port then? Dec 17 23:51:02 Selected mass storage, failed to enumerate on P C Dec 17 23:51:19 I guess that cable is gone? Dec 17 23:51:35 only stuff that's regularly opto is MIDI Dec 17 23:51:56 hmm Dec 17 23:52:02 00:54:57 up 1:33, 0 users, load average: 0.15, 0.26, 0.42 Dec 17 23:52:06 "0 users" Dec 17 23:52:09 what? Dec 17 23:52:14 LOL Dec 17 23:52:31 ask for lusers! ;-P Dec 17 23:52:48 DocScrutinizer05: wasn't there a current loop thingie on rs232? Dec 17 23:53:04 Yep, data doesn't work Dec 17 23:53:05 nah, rs232 is +/-12V Dec 17 23:53:10 Wonder what pin 3 is Dec 17 23:53:10 not current loop Dec 17 23:53:16 that's tty/20mA Dec 17 23:53:26 MohammadAG: guess Dec 17 23:53:32 D+ or D- Dec 17 23:53:47 D+ Id say Dec 17 23:54:04 1/2 would be power Dec 17 23:54:16 3/4 d+/d-? Dec 17 23:54:18 Err Dec 17 23:54:19 Nope Dec 17 23:54:21 and from that way too small distant photo I'd say the D+ and D- are short Dec 17 23:54:49 1 +, 2 D+, 3 D-, 4 ID, 5 GND Dec 17 23:54:54 or sth like that Dec 17 23:55:23 Ah, vbus is 1 pin Dec 17 23:55:28 on 4 pin USB 4 is GND Dec 17 23:55:35 yep VBUS+ Dec 17 23:55:55 No, if sth is shorted then itd be D+ and ID Dec 17 23:56:01 FIQ: output of who? Dec 17 23:56:09 Would a multimeter helps? Dec 17 23:56:21 MohammadAG: I might have swapped ID and GND above Dec 17 23:57:26 DocScrutinizer05: are you messing with me? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/Rscl.jpg Dec 17 23:58:15 oh wait Dec 17 23:58:18 I'm confused. Dec 17 23:58:21 nevermind... Dec 17 23:59:07 Does power flow through a disconnected usb cable? Dec 17 23:59:20 As in one part in PC the other out Dec 17 23:59:29 MohammadAG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Physical_appearance Dec 17 23:59:59 no Dec 18 00:00:10 there mustn't Dec 18 00:00:36 usually a dangling cable never should have any current flowing thru it Dec 18 00:00:49 btw, changing the topic Dec 18 00:00:51 USB no exception Dec 18 00:00:57 thoughts on the lenovo e330? Dec 18 00:01:02 DocScrutinizer05: its micro B Dec 18 00:01:10 I have a micro a otg cable Dec 18 00:01:20 From the Nokia N8 package Dec 18 00:01:40 Havent tried any lenovos Dec 18 00:01:49 But HP is a never again for me Dec 18 00:02:12 Two batteries in two years, and the charger sympathizes with them and breaks too Dec 18 00:02:58 well, my T500 (used) came with a defect PSU, they sent me 2 new spare ones Dec 18 00:03:58 a friend of mine has the ultraslim version of the T5xx series, and told me to stay away from it Dec 18 00:04:30 since it's the complete opposite of the good old strudy T500 Dec 18 00:04:34 T50 Dec 18 00:04:37 etc Dec 18 00:05:20 the BIOS fan control is a crappy joke though Dec 18 00:05:31 on mine Dec 18 00:05:51 Wonder if i should replace the battety or sell the laptop Dec 18 00:06:06 what is it? Dec 18 00:06:10 well, I've had a lenovo x1 carbon Dec 18 00:06:15 and it's fantastic Dec 18 00:06:29 best keyboard on a laptop, bar none Dec 18 00:06:33 great touchpad Dec 18 00:07:01 but I'd like a cheap 13" for travel Dec 18 00:07:10 11" is too small to do any real work on. Dec 18 00:07:25 and hard to get decent hardware under Dec 18 00:08:12 whatever friends, my pub doesn't wait for me. But I'm waiting for my beer Dec 18 00:08:15 o/ Dec 18 00:08:22 'later Dec 18 00:08:54 MohammadAG: if you want a sweet and sexy linux laptop Dec 18 00:08:58 look at the x1 carbon Dec 18 00:09:13 very nicely priced for the hardware you get. Dec 18 00:12:02 They still have that mouse thingy? Dec 18 00:12:10 oh yea Dec 18 00:13:30 teotwaki: one more for leaving: was that you or timeless who built the alternative locales? Dec 18 00:14:37 mouse thingy? that red knob that I removed and stuffed it into the phone receptacle? Dec 18 00:14:54 the mouse clit, yes. Dec 18 00:15:12 dman what a mouse!!! ;-P Dec 18 00:15:21 damn even Dec 18 00:15:22 DocScrutinizer05: I do remember messing around with locales, but I don't think I ever published something... Dec 18 00:15:40 for N810/diablo? Dec 18 00:15:48 you're getting old, DocScrutinizer05. Dec 18 00:15:53 You asked that question in August. Dec 18 00:16:03 quite possible Dec 18 00:16:04 DocScrutinizer05 ask timeless, he published his own improved translations - or was it crashanddie? Dec 18 00:16:21 DocScrutinizer05 zeq: I juggled with all that shite some 2 years ago. My conclusion been it's not possible to do anything about it. IIRC the 'normal' locale dirs don't contain anything, it's all in that 23MB closed blob locale-cache Dec 18 00:16:22 timeless is the l10n man. Dec 18 00:16:43 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=24564 Dec 18 00:17:09 Apparently qwerty published the actual purge. Dec 18 00:19:16 Holy shit, french border control "extreme" division. Heli pilot training: "At some point, the instructor will turn off the engines, either during flight, takeoff or landing. The pilot has no other option that to succeed the exercise and control the vehicle's reaction" Dec 18 00:25:26 That's standard training in a majority of helicopters, civilian too Dec 18 00:27:17 ShadowJK: in a live helicopter? Dec 18 00:27:43 Except most attempts will have "power recovery" at the end, the pilot executes an engine-off landing with the heli, but levels out a few feet above ground, the instructor restores engine power and the heli enters a hover Dec 18 00:28:12 fair enough. Dec 18 00:28:21 In some models you must also do the full touchdown during training atleast once Dec 18 00:29:07 but there are some that don't fly that well without engines, and you might not get to do full touchdown and stop Dec 18 00:29:39 I thought passing my bike license was a hassle. Dec 18 00:30:39 Helicopter flying is roughly similar to balancing two bowling balls ontop of 30 foot pole Dec 18 00:33:47 I figured---I was jesting. Dec 18 00:34:07 It's surprising though, I remember the first time I tried to drive a bike Dec 18 00:34:26 I thought I would never understand the basics Dec 18 00:34:55 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOJSo6_F6mE Instructors cuts engine power, pilot does a 360 turn over water and touches down on a beach :) Dec 18 00:35:31 I've now passed my license twice, and a few thousand miles further, I completed an advanced training course no sweat. Dec 18 00:37:27 :) Dec 18 00:37:32 same with chutes, first time, it went by in a flash, and I hardly enjoyed any of it, nowadays, I jump solo, take the out position on planes to film or photograph others, etc. Dec 18 00:37:59 I'm guessing helis must be the same, it just becomes an extension of your body. Dec 18 00:39:52 I think it's mostly about getting your brainstem programmed Dec 18 00:40:28 the brain is too slow for the small corrections and reactions needed to maintain stable flight :) Dec 18 00:42:14 djeezus, billy robbins, 360kg at 19yo Dec 18 00:43:28 iirc I once worked out that most helis with engines out have same glide ratio as the space shuttle. The space shuttle gets to start at 300km of altitude though :) Dec 18 00:44:31 I think helis are the sexiest of the heavier than air flights Dec 18 00:45:51 I got fascinated by them after discovering FlightGear had a heli model Dec 18 00:46:09 My first flight lasted about half a second Dec 18 00:46:38 hey Dec 18 00:46:51 I think I've destroyed about a grand worth of rc helis Dec 18 00:47:01 A year later and I was pretty good in flightgear's heli models, but my PC was too slow by then, so I bought a rc heli :) Dec 18 00:47:33 Oh and before that, rc heli sim, helped me alot to not crash rc heli on first flights Dec 18 00:49:59 All the cool RC pilots land without motor power too :( Dec 18 01:10:14 teotwaki: nothing Dec 18 01:13:35 hi I want to use an app called ytube Dec 18 01:13:46 mhm Dec 18 01:13:59 but it seems it has been broken for some weaks Dec 18 01:14:10 weeks Dec 18 01:14:27 i wonder if there is a way I can report the bug or lear if there is any patch on the way Dec 18 01:14:39 well, I gather it is messing withyoutube Dec 18 01:14:43 I found the garage page Dec 18 01:14:46 http://maemo.org/packages/view/ytube/ Dec 18 01:14:56 but the bug report route me to the forum Dec 18 01:15:51 forum is a valid bugreport means Dec 18 01:16:40 odds are that youtube changed their API and thus ytube doesn't work anymore Dec 18 01:16:53 its odd, it seems I dont have an account on the forum, but have one on the site Dec 18 01:17:23 DocScrutinizer51: I am still getting most of the info of th videos and feed, the issue is when I try to download it, or play it. Dec 18 01:17:43 DocScrutinizer51: so it cant be an issue of the codec, but of the retrieving mechanism Dec 18 01:17:48 I think it must have been broken for more than just a few weeks Dec 18 01:18:16 ShadowJK: well I can still comment, thum up/down, and share it through fb/twitter Dec 18 01:18:35 I only cant seem to play or download the video Dec 18 01:18:56 I also dont see a link to the source so I cant tell what is the software using for that Dec 18 01:20:19 My guess would be there's a python copy of youtube-dl lurking Dec 18 01:20:25 it tends to be that Dec 18 01:20:43 i guess dpkg -L ytube Dec 18 01:21:02 on your device, would give filelisting and see if it's a python app or what Dec 18 01:21:26 it is a python app, I know that from the comments Dec 18 01:21:33 python and QML Dec 18 01:22:14 and also the changelog says it uses mplayer to reproduce the videos Dec 18 01:22:28 I dont know what module/parameters do python uses. Dec 18 01:22:35 to download the video Dec 18 01:25:07 isn't it flash? Dec 18 01:26:02 DocScrutinizer51: huh? Dec 18 01:26:07 what is flash? Dec 18 01:26:39 flash like in shockwave flashplayer 10 Dec 18 01:27:16 I doubt python has a flash modulee Dec 18 01:27:18 module Dec 18 01:27:36 and even more odd to use it as a retrieval of files Dec 18 01:28:17 it would probable be using curl, or something like that Dec 18 01:28:53 urllib2 Dec 18 01:30:13 I'd figure they use flash9.+ microB plugin to playback, and do a screencast record Dec 18 01:30:37 wtf :) Dec 18 01:30:52 None of the youtube apps do that Dec 18 01:31:06 well youtube videos are flash, no? Dec 18 01:31:17 No Dec 18 01:31:35 then NFC Dec 18 01:31:36 the youtube webpage uses a player implemented in flash Dec 18 01:31:45 The videos are .mp4 Dec 18 01:31:58 err ahhh ummm Dec 18 01:32:25 .oO(???) Dec 18 01:33:09 The thing that usually fails is downloading from youtube. Google doesn't like non-youtube.com players downloading the videos, and regulary change their webpage to break third party software. Dec 18 01:34:38 ShadowJK: well I use youtube-dl on my machine and I update regularly, is thn0n900ere a way to do the same for ytube on my Dec 18 01:34:42 yoh Dec 18 01:34:49 *there Dec 18 01:34:53 what I said Dec 18 01:35:35 patch should be pretty simple, but without a repo of th code, or bugzilla is hard to push a patch. Dec 18 01:35:57 also I would presume ytube uses a modified version of youtube-dl Dec 18 01:36:14 I'd assume that too Dec 18 01:39:34 it also seems I cant login to the forum, the contact admin form is broken (captcha doesnt work) Dec 18 01:39:42 o I cant get my account back on working Dec 18 01:39:49 I can login to the site, but not the forum Dec 18 01:40:58 lease elaborate Dec 18 01:41:00 http://maemo.org/packages/source/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_source/ytube/1-8/ Dec 18 01:41:45 youtube-dl needed an updated a few weeks (months?) ago bc yt changed something Dec 18 01:42:12 yeah Dec 18 01:42:15 (and i rarely have luck with n900 yt player bc they seem to be always out of date...) Dec 18 01:42:22 players Dec 18 01:44:05 ShadowJK: I pastee that link already, but their bugzilla send me to the forum, which I cant access :/ Dec 18 01:44:29 that one has .tar.gz of sourcecode Dec 18 01:44:36 if you're interested Dec 18 01:45:11 well, microB worked 24h ago wtith Dec 18 01:45:24 yeah only microb sorta works Dec 18 01:45:49 Well that's the official google approved youtube player Dec 18 01:45:54 but other yt `apps' usually less so Dec 18 01:46:12 ShadowJK, yeah Dec 18 01:46:12 forum login should work Dec 18 01:46:29 other services not so much Dec 18 01:46:58 Well he lost his password or something Dec 18 01:51:05 ShadowJK: I didnt lost my password I can login to the maemo garage, but I cant login to forums Dec 18 01:51:07 makes sense? Dec 18 02:25:02 no Dec 18 02:25:30 talk.maemo.org is supposed to work Dec 18 02:25:36 JZA: ^^^^ Dec 18 02:37:42 DocScrutinizer05: I think you didnt read me, the forum 'contact form' doesnt work http://talk.maemo.org/sendmessage.php?do=docontactus Dec 18 02:37:53 and I cant login with my garage login/password Dec 18 02:38:15 DocScrutinizer05: captcha is busted **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Dec 18 02:59:58 2012