**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 22 02:59:58 2012
Dec 22 03:56:42 <ShadowJK> heh, agps used 12.8kbyte of data during an hour of driving around in car
Dec 22 03:58:51 <unclouded> thank you to everyone who helped me with my Debian from u-boot.  the watchdog is now working and I wrote up what I did at http://wiki.debian.org/MaemoAndSqueeze in case it saves any time for others
Dec 22 04:03:37 <unclouded> if anyone ends up using that page then I'd be very interested in any commands I left out or got in the wrong order so I can correct it
Dec 22 04:56:17 <ManoftheSea> unclouded: cool.  Does it *Require* u-boot?  Can multiboot not do the trick?
Dec 22 05:22:46 <unclouded> I imagine it would work with multi-boot too.  does multi-boot flash the selected kernel to mtd3 on each boot or did I mis-read that?
Dec 22 05:29:07 <ManoftheSea> It looks like one of the references you had, demonstrated a configuration for multi-boot.  Yes, it flashes when it changes, as I understand it.
Dec 22 05:37:00 <unclouded> I think the configuration for Pali's u-boot is the same format as for multi-boot?
Dec 22 05:38:39 <unclouded> I'm not sure because I'm a bit new to Maemo
Dec 22 09:10:35 <int_ua> Can anyone check the /home/user/.config/hildon-desktop/status-menu.conf ? I desperately need it
Dec 22 09:18:13 <MetalGearSolid> I don't have a status-menu.conf there
Dec 22 09:22:49 <int_ua> ok, thanks
Dec 22 09:23:43 <int_ua> Currently my status-menu and clock won't start and I'm digging the syslog to find out why
Dec 22 10:24:18 <Guest85059> Hi, is there a command line interface to change the presence options from e.g. online to offline?
Dec 22 10:24:55 <kerio> Guest85059: it's probably a dbus message
Dec 22 10:25:12 <kerio> ~phone-control
Dec 22 10:25:15 <kerio> hrmpf
Dec 22 10:25:17 <kerio> ~phonecontrol
Dec 22 10:25:17 <infobot> it has been said that phonecontrol is http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control
Dec 22 10:25:30 <kerio> Guest85059: http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control#Set_presence
Dec 22 10:38:30 <Guest85059> Thanks, kerio.
Dec 22 10:38:38 <Guest85059> I have some issues with that tough:
Dec 22 10:38:42 <Guest85059> ~ $ dbus-send --type=method_call --print-reply --dest=org.freedesktop.Telepathy.MissionControl /org/freedesktop/Telepathy/MissionControl org.freedesktop.Telepathy.MissionControl.SetPresence uint32:2 string:"Offline" 
Dec 22 10:38:44 <Guest85059> Error org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.Telepathy.MissionControl was not provided by any .service files
Dec 22 10:38:45 <Guest85059> ~ $
Dec 22 10:38:46 <infobot> hmm... $ is a dollar sign
Dec 22 10:39:26 <Guest85059> Do you know which package provides qdbus
Dec 22 10:44:41 <Guest85059> The python script in the linked thread works, cool :-)
Dec 22 10:44:46 <Guest85059> Thanks again kerio
Dec 22 11:03:02 <dimir> How to write good code: http://xkcd.com/844/
Dec 22 11:39:52 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer51: moving to china but not to EU...
Dec 22 14:01:37 <int_ua> $ apt-cache search status | grep -v l10n | grep status
Dec 22 14:01:53 <int_ua> Looks like we are missing a naming convention
Dec 22 17:58:46 <DocScrutinizer06> chem|st: I just had a chance to understand what you're talking about when I received a mail from nybauer sent 2012-12-22_18:43. I didn't even know about all that before, and that's symptomatic for what's wrong with the whole operation
Dec 22 18:01:19 <DocScrutinizer06> I.E. the mail informing 'us' about such plans to maybe move tmo to HK-located server came in ~30min ago
Dec 22 18:01:27 <kerio> what the shit, HK?
Dec 22 18:01:32 <kerio> how about no
Dec 22 18:01:33 <DocScrutinizer06> indeed
Dec 22 18:02:18 <ShadowJK> why hk..
Dec 22 18:02:29 <teotwaki> fuck, I'll pay for the server
Dec 22 18:02:30 <ShadowJK> i thought bandwidth was expensive in asia
Dec 22 18:02:41 <int_ua> cheap prices?
Dec 22 18:02:51 <teotwaki> int_ua: cheaper than 30€/mo?
Dec 22 18:03:10 <int_ua> How would I know)
Dec 22 18:03:18 <teotwaki> int_ua: france has the cheapest hosting in the world.
Dec 22 18:03:38 <ShadowJK> France, Netherlands, Germany, even UK
Dec 22 18:03:50 <ShadowJK> US has lots of cheap hosting too
Dec 22 18:03:57 <kerio> and it doesn't require data to pass through the great firewall nor through echelon
Dec 22 18:04:07 <int_ua> echelon?
Dec 22 18:04:09 <teotwaki> well, I've not found cheaper than 18€/mo anywhere else than france for a full dedi.
Dec 22 18:04:18 <DocScrutinizer06> the complete failure sits in the sentence "During next Board meeting it's planned to address the [...] selection of hosting provider"
Dec 22 18:04:19 <ShadowJK> Last time I checked, asia hosting had the decimal point one position more expensive than elsewhere :P
Dec 22 18:04:51 <DocScrutinizer06> Boerd has no technical background to do a proper selection of any such hosting provider
Dec 22 18:05:28 <teotwaki> Depending on the size of the server, we may have a (free) ability to host it.
Dec 22 18:05:37 <ShadowJK> they'll end up buying a static-only hosting you mean? :P
Dec 22 18:05:42 <int_ua> isn't it a choice based on pure numerical comparisons?
Dec 22 18:06:07 <ShadowJK> lol no
Dec 22 18:06:15 <DocScrutinizer06> Board obviously not even has the technical knowledge about what's needed to host any part of the maemo infra
Dec 22 18:06:28 <DocScrutinizer06> yet they decide on such stuff in closed meetings
Dec 22 18:06:40 <kerio> who's in the hf board?
Dec 22 18:06:59 <teotwaki> shit
Dec 22 18:07:15 <teotwaki> connecticut: +129% gun sales since the murders
Dec 22 18:08:10 <ShadowJK> At the very least you want to check webhostingtalk.com for positive/negative reviews/comments/threads/post about a potential provider. Finding no posts at all about a provider is a "run, run fast" sign.
Dec 22 18:09:47 <DocScrutinizer06> and the worst thing about that whole unholy hosting 'discussion' inside board: They seem to completely forget about administration, again suggesting council should come up with a list of voluntary casual admins to do technical server system administration
Dec 22 18:11:04 <ShadowJK> Well if they buy some random webspace on a shared server that allows 1 vhost and 1 sql db (as long as mysql doesnt start using actual cpu and ram), and ftp-only access, there wont be much administration to do :P
Dec 22 18:11:13 <DocScrutinizer06> and comparing prices of low-level dedicated server or even vserver hosting with other offers that are actually about managed hosts
Dec 22 18:11:14 <ShadowJK> (and not much of a functional tmo either)
Dec 22 18:13:37 <DocScrutinizer06> then the constant rambling and fud about how insanely high the Nemein hosting will be, while we got not even any quoation from them - neglecting that any such service in the past included administration (of whatever quality)
Dec 22 18:15:21 <ShadowJK> One of the things Mer really spent effort on was cutting the stupid stuff out of infra to get hosting costs down :)
Dec 22 18:15:22 <DocScrutinizer06> basically any hosting will consist of 10% technical services cost (hw leasing, colocation, traffic, energy...) and 90% sysop costs
Dec 22 18:19:49 <ShadowJK> Has anyone of countl/board ever managed a opensource or other community project...
Dec 22 18:19:54 <DocScrutinizer06> well, for now it seems Board has decided to move tmo to the infra Nokia donated to community, and thus consolidate stuff - brillint decision. Finally! :-)
Dec 22 18:20:12 <kerio> phew
Dec 22 18:20:15 <kerio> so... business as usual?
Dec 22 18:20:20 <kerio> for how long?
Dec 22 18:20:29 <DocScrutinizer06> you never know what's next
Dec 22 18:21:39 <ShadowJK> Because like, even if a volunteer admin is found to admin the cheap HK server, I bet it only takes a year or two before he decides to seize all control over the server for his or her own agenda, and then the budget datacentre offers two choices: a) do nothing b) terminate and erase server
Dec 22 18:21:51 <ShadowJK> then databases and forum is lost :)
Dec 22 18:21:59 <tadzik> hello
Dec 22 18:22:17 <DocScrutinizer06> ShadowJK: yup
Dec 22 18:22:49 <tadzik> do you know if there's a way to access alarms from outside the GUI applications? Some library, dbus, database of them?
Dec 22 18:23:02 <DocScrutinizer06> ShadowJK: *i* basically managed openmoko infra, at least 'passively'
Dec 22 18:23:36 <DocScrutinizer06> the actual management been done by the professional admins Roh and Gismo which I suggested to Board
Dec 22 18:23:49 <DocScrutinizer06> they decided to ignore that completely
Dec 22 18:24:04 <ShadowJK> I mean the political and people-interaction issues become pretty horrendous with community-owned infra quite quickly 
Dec 22 18:24:33 <DocScrutinizer06> you definitely can't have "community-owned infra"
Dec 22 18:25:02 <kerio> tadzik: alarmclient can manipulate alarmd alarms
Dec 22 18:25:16 <DocScrutinizer06> I understood Board realized that and appointed me for "owner" of the infra
Dec 22 18:25:16 <kerio> but it's a lower level than the alarms you set in the clock app
Dec 22 18:25:34 <ShadowJK> it's pretty cool how Meego which we all loved to hate, managed to be more transparent and open than this our new hf :)
Dec 22 18:25:43 <DocScrutinizer06> seem I fell for a misconception
Dec 22 18:25:58 <Natanaiel> my n900 doesn't update anymore
Dec 22 18:25:59 <tadzik> kerio: it's okay, I want a Qt app to set an alarm
Dec 22 18:26:00 <Natanaiel> why?
Dec 22 18:26:13 <kerio> Natanaiel: with HAM?
Dec 22 18:26:24 <Natanaiel> kerio: HAM?
Dec 22 18:26:32 <kerio> "Application Manager"
Dec 22 18:26:39 <Natanaiel> yeah
Dec 22 18:26:54 <kerio> the nokia gpg keys expired, and HAM is a fickle bitch
Dec 22 18:27:08 <kerio> there's no real fix except to use apt
Dec 22 18:27:39 <kerio> but it's not really a substitute
Dec 22 18:27:48 <kerio> it requires more knowledge of how maemo works, for instance
Dec 22 18:28:01 <kerio> Natanaiel: what are you trying to update?
Dec 22 18:28:06 <DocScrutinizer06> redpill?
Dec 22 18:28:20 <kerio> DocScrutinizer06: i'm not sure there's a setting to ignore gpg keys
Dec 22 18:28:31 <DocScrutinizer06> kerio: you should volunteer to find out about redpill and how to exploit it for that
Dec 22 18:28:33 <kerio> (if so, community-ssu-enabler should enable it i suppose)
Dec 22 18:28:51 <kerio> i don't like being volunteered to work on HAM D:
Dec 22 18:28:53 <DocScrutinizer06> as a stop-gap solution
Dec 22 18:28:58 <kerio> k, fine
Dec 22 18:29:39 <kerio> by the way, does nokia let us rehost the maemo repos?
Dec 22 18:29:46 <kerio> the ones on downloads.maemo.nokia.com
Dec 22 18:29:47 <DocScrutinizer06> a) find out if stock HAM allows redpill. b) set up instructions how to enable and configure it
Dec 22 18:30:23 <kerio> DocScrutinizer06: you mean add that specific configuration to community-ssu-enabler right?
Dec 22 18:30:27 <DocScrutinizer06> kerio: a very good question that got some attention some 2 or 3 days ago 'behind the scenes'
Dec 22 18:31:05 <DocScrutinizer06> kerio: I mean find a working procedure for everybody on how to re-enable HAM-based update
Dec 22 18:31:13 <kerio> ...actually, i think that right now it's impossible to install cssu
Dec 22 18:31:17 <kerio> from a stock device
Dec 22 18:31:26 <ShadowJK> :s
Dec 22 18:31:27 <kerio> DocScrutinizer06: you should test it when your new n900 arrives
Dec 22 18:31:38 <DocScrutinizer06> my new n900?
Dec 22 18:31:40 <kerio> ShadowJK: because of the 1.3.1 update, which is OTA only
Dec 22 18:31:55 <kerio> DocScrutinizer06: the one that fmg is supposed to buy in your stead?
Dec 22 18:32:09 <DocScrutinizer06> luckily we got 1.3.1 updates in cssu as well
Dec 22 18:32:28 <DocScrutinizer06> kerio: I don't see that happen
Dec 22 18:32:37 <kerio> DocScrutinizer06: like, hosted by cssu?
Dec 22 18:32:44 <kerio> then it should still be installable
Dec 22 18:33:22 <DocScrutinizer06> yep, the security fixes got delivered via cssu first, only later nokia shipped an official update called 1.3.1 which basically obsoletes those cssu patches
Dec 22 18:34:37 <DocScrutinizer06> that's why cssu howto-install clearly states that you need *either* 1.3 or 1.3.1 to install cssu
Dec 22 18:35:32 <DocScrutinizer06> you could say Nokia Pr1.3.1 is a backport of cssu to stock ;-D
Dec 22 18:35:55 <kerio> hrmpf, enabling "show all packages" with extras-devel enabled is a bad idea
Dec 22 18:36:07 <DocScrutinizer06> hahaha
Dec 22 18:36:57 <DocScrutinizer06> cya
Dec 22 18:37:20 <kerio> how do i see the total cpu time used by a process?
Dec 22 18:37:27 <kerio> i still have the stupid top
Dec 22 18:38:22 <DocScrutinizer06> time+
Dec 22 18:38:44 <kerio> no, i meant a currently-running process
Dec 22 18:43:45 <kerio> hm...
Dec 22 18:43:56 <kerio> the install of something from downloads.maemo.nokia.com succeeded
Dec 22 18:52:20 <kerio> DocScrutinizer06: i think i see the problem
Dec 22 18:53:30 <kerio> DocScrutinizer06: i can't really test it, though
Dec 22 18:54:58 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: so please elaborate
Dec 22 18:55:23 <kerio> hrmpf, i can't get an install to fail here
Dec 22 18:56:51 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: hold on, i'm trying to get an actual error message
Dec 22 18:59:17 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: ok so... HAM's idea of package priority is called a "domain"
Dec 22 18:59:35 <kerio> a package is in a certain domain based on the key it's signed with and the repository it's in
Dec 22 18:59:48 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Dec 22 18:59:57 <kerio> each domain has a certain priority, and packages can't move to a domain with a lower priority due to an upgrade
Dec 22 19:00:47 <kerio> what can end up failing is that some packages, installed, can't be upgraded because they belong to the nokia domain but the new version is in the unidentified domain
Dec 22 19:00:51 <kerio> because of the key error
Dec 22 19:00:58 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, and 999 has some special meaning for priority iirc
Dec 22 19:01:14 <kerio> 1001 has, actually, but that's an apt thing, i'm not sure if it applies to HAM
Dec 22 19:02:07 <kerio> for reference, the latest community-ssu-enabler adds the cssu repos as domains with a trust level (sorry, it's not called priority) between 700 and 703
Dec 22 19:02:12 <DocScrutinizer05> a domain with expired or invalid key losing its priority
Dec 22 19:02:42 <kerio> the "stock" maemo-extras is at 200, ovi at 400, nokia-certified at 400, nokia-system at 600
Dec 22 19:03:06 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: but it's weird, because catalogues also specify a domain
Dec 22 19:03:11 <kerio> and that should apply regardless of key...
Dec 22 19:03:11 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: nice investigation
Dec 22 19:04:07 <kerio> a possible way to fix that, but i can't test it because of course i can't upgrade to anything - bleeding edge yo - would be to enable redpill mode and disable the domain check
Dec 22 19:04:08 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: I think you might ask jaffa and MohammadAG
Dec 22 19:04:47 <kerio> aka enter the HAM settings and untick "Ignore packages from wrong domains"
Dec 22 19:04:51 <DocScrutinizer05> (redpill domain check) that's what I meant
Dec 22 19:06:20 <DocScrutinizer05> we honestly schould instruct all n900 users to upgrade to cssu-s at least
Dec 22 19:06:42 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: we'd have to check if the hidden settings apply even without redpill mode enabled
Dec 22 19:06:59 <kerio> but enabling that setting is kinda unsafe ofc
Dec 22 19:07:11 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Dec 22 19:07:26 <kerio> anyway, you can enable redpill mode on every PR, you have to edit a file in ~/.something
Dec 22 19:08:00 <DocScrutinizer05> I thought that got dropped in ~PR1.2 HAM
Dec 22 19:08:06 <tadzik> crap. I set an alarm with libalarm, and now it keeps going off, while not visible in alarm-ui :D
Dec 22 19:08:17 <Jaffa> Evening all
Dec 22 19:08:28 <DocScrutinizer05> Jaffa: hi! :-D
Dec 22 19:09:00 <kerio> tadzik: alarmclient
Dec 22 19:09:07 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah
Dec 22 19:09:15 <kerio> alarmd goes beyond alarm-ui
Dec 22 19:09:16 <tadzik> I can't even poweroff
Dec 22 19:09:26 <tadzik> what a daemon
Dec 22 19:10:00 <DocScrutinizer05> well, you can't poweroff if a alarm event is scheduled for next ~3min I guess
Dec 22 19:10:01 <kerio> it powers off and then boots immediately to make sure you get the alarm
Dec 22 19:10:09 <kerio> oh, maybe it doesn't power off at all
Dec 22 19:10:40 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: you can check it on your vanilla n900 i suppose
Dec 22 19:10:51 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: http://wiki.maemo.org/Red_Pill_mode follow the instructions in the last part of that page
Dec 22 19:10:58 <DocScrutinizer05> I probably can do that - not today though
Dec 22 19:10:58 <tadzik> I'm doomed. I can't even turn this shit off now
Dec 22 19:11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> tadzik: use alarmclient
Dec 22 19:11:31 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: i'm not sure if he ignored me or what
Dec 22 19:11:34 <tadzik> DocScrutinizer05: I can't even open a terminal. This thing goes on as soon as I turn it off
Dec 22 19:11:39 <tadzik> kerio: see above
Dec 22 19:11:48 <kerio> tadzik: ssh?
Dec 22 19:11:51 <tadzik> yeah, I'll have to
Dec 22 19:12:15 <tadzik> if I figure out how to turn on wifi in 1 second
Dec 22 19:12:16 <DocScrutinizer05> can't open a xterm? why?
Dec 22 19:12:57 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, you scheduled a recurring alarm, every second? LOL
Dec 22 19:13:34 <tadzik> apparently, yeah
Dec 22 19:13:42 <tadzik> I just copypasted the example from http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Using_Generic_Platform_Components/Alarm_Framework
Dec 22 19:14:00 <DocScrutinizer05> could you move the alarm requester/screen to background via ctrl-backspace?
Dec 22 19:14:04 <tadzik> either I accidentally changed some lines, or it's a nasty piece of code, this one
Dec 22 19:14:12 <tadzik> no, that doesn't work
Dec 22 19:14:25 <tadzik> power button doesn't work either
Dec 22 19:14:37 <DocScrutinizer05> open xterm via ctl-shift-x?
Dec 22 19:14:49 <tadzik> alarmclient -c should remove all events
Dec 22 19:14:49 <DocScrutinizer05> was it ctrl-shift-x? or t?
Dec 22 19:14:53 <tadzik> maybe I'll be able to type that
Dec 22 19:15:29 <tadzik> oh god yes
Dec 22 19:15:38 <tadzik> I need a watchdog doing that
Dec 22 19:15:51 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm?
Dec 22 19:15:59 <tadzik> alarmclient -c removed all alarms
Dec 22 19:16:09 <tadzik> I hope there wasn't anything important there
Dec 22 19:16:20 <tadzik> it removed 5, I knew of 3
Dec 22 19:16:37 <DocScrutinizer05> some might have been birthdays or sth
Dec 22 19:16:49 <DocScrutinizer05> update also has an alarm
Dec 22 19:21:35 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: what did you want me to ask Jaffa about?
Dec 22 19:22:01 <DocScrutinizer05> HAM
Dec 22 19:22:11 <kerio> but why, specifically?
Dec 22 19:22:15 <Jaffa> Old school. Been a while since I touched that
Dec 22 19:22:22 <DocScrutinizer05> well, about how all that crap works
Dec 22 19:23:34 <kerio> hah
Dec 22 19:23:36 <DocScrutinizer05> Jaffa: seems we got increasing number of users reporting issues with expired signing keys in *.maemo.nokia.com
Dec 22 19:23:54 <RST38h> +1
Dec 22 19:24:39 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd think this needs some in-depth investigation and suggestions how to "fix" stuff
Dec 22 19:24:42 <freemangordon> + it is impossible to do OTA update from PR 1.x to PR1.3
Dec 22 19:25:26 <DocScrutinizer05> Jaffa: If you could lend a helping and and share some of your knowledge, this would be much appreciated
Dec 22 19:25:36 <DocScrutinizer05> helping hand*
Dec 22 19:26:00 <kerio> i'm not sure that HAM checks the signing keys explicitly, it doesn't appear to do so from my logs
Dec 22 19:26:04 <kerio> so it's got to be a domain issue
Dec 22 19:26:09 <Jaffa> DocScrutinizer05: Sure. Immediate thought is encoding a workaround in the CSSU HAM/apt.
Dec 22 19:26:20 <Jaffa> kerio: Keys are probably checked by apt-worker
Dec 22 19:26:33 <kerio> Jaffa: yeah but it doesn't complain, for "normal" packages
Dec 22 19:26:51 <freemangordon> Jaffa: sure, but what about those without CSSU?
Dec 22 19:27:02 <kerio> freemangordon: clearly, they're irrelevant
Dec 22 19:27:12 <freemangordon> kerio: what?
Dec 22 19:27:12 <kerio> >:D
Dec 22 19:27:47 <kerio> actually, once we get hold of all the repos, we can just re-sign the packages with the maemo.org key
Dec 22 19:27:59 <kerio> ...actually that would still not work
Dec 22 19:27:59 <DocScrutinizer05> I think council can push an official notice strongly suggesting that *all* users move to cssu
Dec 22 19:28:28 <freemangordon> kerio: the point is that CSSU (for example) of HF may want to push a package informing n900 users about CSSU existance
Dec 22 19:28:28 <kerio> freemangordon: to fix this properly, you need HAM to know the new key, you need the new key to be in the keychain, and you need the packages to be signed with that key
Dec 22 19:28:31 <Jaffa> freemangordon: Well, without Nokia fixing the key, transferring the domain or similar - I'm not sure there's anything else you can do
Dec 22 19:28:51 <kerio> Jaffa: you can't fix the key
Dec 22 19:28:57 <kerio> the key is expired, the devices know that
Dec 22 19:29:15 <kerio> if the problem is the HAM domain, which i think it is
Dec 22 19:29:17 <Jaffa> kerio: I meant Nokia pushing an update to fix the key
Dec 22 19:29:27 <kerio> Jaffa: they can't push any update, HAM will reject it
Dec 22 19:29:35 <DocScrutinizer05> Jaffa: nokia won't transfer the domain maemo.nokia.com I guess
Dec 22 19:29:38 <Jaffa> kerio: Fair point :)
Dec 22 19:29:42 <kerio> also that
Dec 22 19:29:47 <Jaffa> DocScrutinizer05: Indeed.
Dec 22 19:30:00 <freemangordon> though I was able to do OTA update from 1.2 to 1.3 by using apt-get
Dec 22 19:30:05 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: to be fair, nokia or we could release a "repository-oneshot-fix" package that fixes the situation
Dec 22 19:30:09 <tadzik> fun fact: if you 'alarmclient -c' while the alarm is running, the bastard will keep ringing, impossible to turn off
Dec 22 19:30:12 <kerio> freemangordon: do you remember the error message from HAM?
Dec 22 19:30:21 <Jaffa> Which means that users have to get a fix into the keychain. HAM - at least - won't let that happen without another trusted domain. Which means CSSU
Dec 22 19:30:24 <freemangordon> kerio: no error message ;)
Dec 22 19:30:33 <freemangordon> just no update
Dec 22 19:30:38 <kerio> Jaffa: nah, running stuff as root is easy
Dec 22 19:30:41 <Jaffa> kerio: I suspect that won't work from Extras as it'd involve overwriting a file from a package in a higher domain
Dec 22 19:30:47 <kerio> no it won't
Dec 22 19:30:53 <Jaffa> kerio: Yeah, could bodge it using postinst
Dec 22 19:30:57 <kerio> it's *adding* a new file
Dec 22 19:30:57 <Jaffa> (probably)
Dec 22 19:31:07 <kerio> which is what you do in the first install of community-ssu-enabler
Dec 22 19:31:21 <Jaffa> kerio: Don't you need to overwrite the old key with the new one?
Dec 22 19:31:33 <freemangordon> Jaffa: I think we can find a package in extras to use for that purpose
Dec 22 19:31:33 <kerio> Jaffa: you can't change the expire date of a gpg key
Dec 22 19:31:44 <freemangordon> which is in "user" section
Dec 22 19:31:46 <DocScrutinizer05> I'll consider this task as correctly spawned and kicked off
Dec 22 19:31:47 <Jaffa> kerio: No, I know
Dec 22 19:32:03 <DocScrutinizer05> I'll leave it up to you for now, please don't drop it
Dec 22 19:32:07 <Jaffa> kerio: I didn't say change the expire date - I said overwrite the key [file]
Dec 22 19:32:14 <kerio> actually, all this discussion is moot
Dec 22 19:32:23 <freemangordon> kerio: why?
Dec 22 19:32:26 <kerio> because we'd need write access to downloads.maemo.nokia.com
Dec 22 19:32:31 <kerio> to do things in the proper way
Dec 22 19:32:46 <freemangordon> kerio: that won;t happen, the only way is -extras
Dec 22 19:32:49 <Jaffa> kerio: Or you write to /etc/hosts and point it at downloadsnokia.maemo.org
Dec 22 19:32:54 <kerio> Jaffa: oh you
Dec 22 19:33:07 <kerio> then we'd need a mirror-ish of downloads.maemo.nokia.com
Dec 22 19:33:12 <Jaffa> Pragmatic solutions probably needed
Dec 22 19:33:25 <kerio> oh, if we're going pragmatic then it's easy
Dec 22 19:33:35 <Jaffa> Given it's likely to drop offline at some random point (I guess), that doesn't seem unreasonable (though I note in the Council logs notes about (c))
Dec 22 19:33:56 <kerio> new package in extras, repository-oneshot-fix, empty package that does stuff in postinst:
Dec 22 19:34:06 <kerio> enable redpill mode in HAM
Dec 22 19:34:16 <kerio> enable "ignore wrong domain" in HAM
Dec 22 19:34:25 <freemangordon> kerio: no new package, a new version of an existing one
Dec 22 19:34:38 <kerio> freemangordon: what?
Dec 22 19:34:48 <kerio> which existing one?
Dec 22 19:34:56 <freemangordon> we need to find it :)
Dec 22 19:35:08 <freemangordon> a package that will do the job
Dec 22 19:35:32 <kerio> Jaffa: do you think that HAM will honour redpill preferences even if redpill is disabled?
Dec 22 19:35:44 <kerio> think/remember
Dec 22 19:36:10 <freemangordon> hmm where is xterminal?
Dec 22 19:36:15 <freemangordon> in what repo?
Dec 22 19:36:40 <kerio> the stockest of them all
Dec 22 19:37:08 <kerio> freemangordon: maemo extras is lower than any other nokia repo, including ovi
Dec 22 19:37:39 <kerio> so we can't push an update for any package in the stock image, pretty much
Dec 22 19:37:47 <kerio> without a tiny bit of user intervention
Dec 22 19:38:13 <freemangordon> kerio: pool/maemo5.0/free/o/osso-xterm/osso-xterm_0.14.mh27+0m5_armel.deb
Dec 22 19:38:25 <freemangordon> I read that as maemo-extras
Dec 22 19:38:36 <kerio> you read that wrong :)
Dec 22 19:38:37 <kerio> http://maemo.org/packages/view/osso-xterm/
Dec 22 19:38:59 <kerio> maemo 5 device root filesystem pr1.0, pr 1.2, sdk free armel, sdk free i386, device ssu repository pr 1.2
Dec 22 19:39:17 <freemangordon> kerio: but someone said that priority is ignored for repos with expired keys
Dec 22 19:39:39 <kerio> no, the repository drops to trust level 0
Dec 22 19:39:39 <freemangordon> or I misread it
Dec 22 19:39:45 <kerio> but the packages still have the original trust level
Dec 22 19:39:52 <kerio> the installed packages
Dec 22 19:39:56 <freemangordon> aah, i see
Dec 22 19:39:57 <kerio> so they won't get upgraded by ham
Dec 22 19:40:21 <kerio> i... think
Dec 22 19:40:28 <kerio> where's the "trust level" stored?
Dec 22 19:41:04 <freemangordon> NFC
Dec 22 19:41:34 <kerio> we need someone with PR1.2 still installed
Dec 22 19:41:39 <tadzik> freemangordon: do you understand this alarmclient thing?
Dec 22 19:41:44 <freemangordon> tadzik: no
Dec 22 19:41:53 <tadzik> I can reproduce that it recurs indefinitely if you remove the snooze button from it :|
Dec 22 19:41:55 <kerio> maybe disabling every repo, updating and then reenabling every repo could fix it
Dec 22 19:42:05 <tadzik> I guess that's a "doctor, it hurts when I do this" situation
Dec 22 19:42:15 <freemangordon> :)
Dec 22 19:42:42 <kerio> srsly, where's the domain for every package stored?
Dec 22 19:42:58 <freemangordon> kerio: my undersaning is that we should find a way to inform every n900 user that there is CSSU
Dec 22 19:43:20 <freemangordon> I can't think of any other way but through a package
Dec 22 19:43:55 <kerio> we can't push anything to a stock device, right now
Dec 22 19:44:03 <freemangordon> so, we should find an appropriate package in maemo-extras and push a new version of it
Dec 22 19:44:09 <freemangordon> maemo-extras is the way
Dec 22 19:44:14 <kerio> no package in maemo-extras is preinstalled on a stock device ffs
Dec 22 19:44:34 <freemangordon> are you sure?
Dec 22 19:45:50 <freemangordon> hmm, what about docs-to-go? (I know it is not in extras)
Dec 22 19:45:59 <freemangordon> is OVI key still valid?
Dec 22 19:46:32 <kerio> freemangordon: apt-key list
Dec 22 19:48:26 <freemangordon> hmm, what is that:
Dec 22 19:48:27 <freemangordon> pub   1024D/4510B055 2009-03-18
Dec 22 19:48:27 <freemangordon> uid                  MaemoSW Admin <admin@maemo.research.nokia.com>
Dec 22 19:49:49 <Pali> freemangordon, private maemo repo on maemo.research.nokia.com
Dec 22 19:50:12 <freemangordon> the key is still valid
Dec 22 19:50:28 <kerio> meh, this is confusing
Dec 22 19:50:34 <Pali> but DNS A record is only in nokia intranet
Dec 22 19:51:09 <freemangordon> yeah :(
Dec 22 19:51:22 <kerio> well, that key is good enough for nokia-system
Dec 22 19:51:24 <kerio> trust level 600
Dec 22 19:51:38 <Pali> that key is useless
Dec 22 19:51:46 <freemangordon> well, then we just need to find a package in maemo-extras
Dec 22 19:51:49 <Pali> and provides by package maemo-internal-keyring
Dec 22 19:52:03 <Pali> (or similar name)
Dec 22 19:52:52 <kerio> which keys are CC3E6BA3EE288AECEE24FD8EB6ECBFF74C36F0B6 and 1CC1A2A2B8CE8F258F896B4207C0DFF713FA4ED6 ?
Dec 22 19:54:12 <freemangordon> Pali: maemointernal-keyring
Dec 22 19:54:43 <freemangordon> kerio: where did you get that from?
Dec 22 19:55:13 <kerio> /usr/share/hildon-application-manager/domains
Dec 22 19:59:56 <kerio> i just can't see what nokia was supposed to do, really
Dec 22 20:00:06 <kerio> push an update and hope that people would upgrade before the keys expired?
Dec 22 20:02:17 <kerio> it's too late now
Dec 22 20:08:35 <freemangordon> well, I guess another option will be to see which is the most downloaded package in extras
Dec 22 20:08:51 <freemangordon> or top 10
Dec 22 20:09:05 <freemangordon> will be better than nothing
Dec 22 20:10:15 <freemangordon> kerio: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/n900-fmrx-enabler/
Dec 22 20:10:16 <freemangordon> :D:D:D
Dec 22 20:10:35 <freemangordon> that should solve the case for PR 1.3
Dec 22 20:10:49 <kerio> hmm
Dec 22 20:11:08 <kerio> freemangordon: http://maemo.org/packages/view/n900-fmrx-enabler/
Dec 22 20:11:28 <kerio> it's preinstalled
Dec 22 20:11:40 <freemangordon> kerio: in PR1.3
Dec 22 20:11:41 <kerio> i'm not sure if pushing it through extras will work
Dec 22 20:11:51 <freemangordon> of course it will
Dec 22 20:12:13 <kerio> we don't really have a clue of what HAM actually does with that weird trust-level shit
Dec 22 20:12:36 <freemangordon> but I can't think of a way to test it
Dec 22 20:13:33 <freemangordon> kerio: aah, wait, it is installed on pre-PR1.3 devices too
Dec 22 20:14:29 <freemangordon> Jaffa: any thoughts? for n900-fmrx-enabler package to be used as a tool to fix gpg keys?
Dec 22 20:14:37 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: ^^^
Dec 22 20:14:53 <kerio> it's definetely in a user section
Dec 22 20:15:06 <kerio> also note that it's only preinstalled for Global users
Dec 22 20:15:26 <kerio> no, maybe it's not preinstalled in the... uk?
Dec 22 20:15:26 <freemangordon> kerio: well, better than nothing
Dec 22 20:16:53 <freemangordon> kerio: we can try a better candidate, but I don;t know why
Dec 22 20:17:08 <freemangordon> s/try/try to find/
Dec 22 20:17:08 <infobot> freemangordon meant: kerio: we can try to find a better candidate, but I don;t know why
Dec 22 20:18:24 <kerio> i don't know if adding a new file in /usr/share/hildon-application-manager/domains will help though
Dec 22 20:18:29 <freemangordon> kerio: any idea how to test if this will work?
Dec 22 20:18:39 <kerio> maybe we'll have to divert and change the existing one
Dec 22 20:18:48 <kerio> freemangordon: dude, i don't even have a clue of how to get an error message
Dec 22 20:18:51 <Pali> btw, what are you trying to do?
Dec 22 20:19:03 <kerio> i tried a lot, couldn't find a way to make *something* fail on my HAM
Dec 22 20:19:10 <kerio> Pali: try to fix the expired nokia key
Dec 22 20:19:15 <freemangordon> kerio: if there is a way to push an update to the devices, I am sure we'll find what should be done
Dec 22 20:19:35 <kerio> Pali: by using n900-fmtx-enabler as an "attack vector"
Dec 22 20:19:40 <kerio> we push an update to that package in maemo extras
Dec 22 20:19:49 <kerio> it should appear on every HAM
Dec 22 20:19:55 <Pali> why not wait waht happen with maemo.nokia.com??
Dec 22 20:20:04 <freemangordon> kerio: it is not only about the key, toldya, we can use it to inform n900 users about CSSU existance
Dec 22 20:20:07 <kerio> Pali: the gpg key nokia used to sign is expired
Dec 22 20:20:21 <Pali> kerio, maybe nokia will fix key
Dec 22 20:20:25 <Pali> or will delete repo
Dec 22 20:20:28 <kerio> Pali: there's no way to fix it
Dec 22 20:20:41 <Pali> kerio, changing expiration
Dec 22 20:20:42 <freemangordon> Pali: how will they sign it?
Dec 22 20:20:47 <Pali> it is possible
Dec 22 20:20:49 <kerio> ...you can't change the expiration of a key
Dec 22 20:20:54 <Pali> you can
Dec 22 20:21:00 <freemangordon> Pali: how
Dec 22 20:21:11 <freemangordon> the keys are on the device
Dec 22 20:21:11 <kerio> freemangordon: we can use it to silently enable CSSU stable for users
Dec 22 20:21:16 <Jaffa> freemangordon: Could work. Would need testing.
Dec 22 20:21:31 <Pali> apt-key can update key from keyserver
Dec 22 20:21:33 <kerio> i'm not sure which assumptions we're running with, here
Dec 22 20:21:33 <freemangordon> kerio: well, thats more than I would do
Dec 22 20:21:39 <Pali> and I bet that there can be support in HAM
Dec 22 20:21:44 <kerio> can we assume we control maemo.org?
Dec 22 20:21:50 <kerio> what about downloads.maemo.nokia.com?
Dec 22 20:22:05 <Pali> and if somebody change exporation of nokia key, he also push it to some public gpg server
Dec 22 20:22:13 <freemangordon> Jaffa: for sure (testing)
Dec 22 20:22:21 <Pali> and then it will be synced will other gpg servers
Dec 22 20:22:28 <Pali> and apt-key can update it on device
Dec 22 20:22:42 <Pali> after that apt-get can work again
Dec 22 20:22:45 <freemangordon> Pali: does "the user" need to run commands on the device?
Dec 22 20:22:59 <Pali> freemangordon, I do not know how is apt-key configured
Dec 22 20:23:10 <kerio> you'd need user intervention
Dec 22 20:23:15 <freemangordon> Pali: can you check it?
Dec 22 20:23:30 <Pali> yes, but not know...
Dec 22 20:23:37 <freemangordon> kerio: if that's true, then we'd better forget about that :)
Dec 22 20:23:38 <Pali> doing something other...
Dec 22 20:23:47 <freemangordon> Pali: ok, no hurry
Dec 22 20:24:06 <Pali> and if nokia decide to drop maemo.nokia.com then changing apt configuration will be useless...
Dec 22 20:24:34 <Pali> (then we can only publish our backup with new signature)
Dec 22 20:28:49 <kerio> and put everything in maemo extras! :D
Dec 22 20:28:53 <kerio> actually not really
Dec 22 20:29:01 <kerio> push the update through n900-fmtx-enabler
Dec 22 20:29:02 <freemangordon> Pali: new signature with what key?
Dec 22 20:29:22 <kerio> freemangordon: maemo.org extras for instance
Dec 22 20:29:25 <kerio> or a new one
Dec 22 20:29:34 <kerio> to add a repo you need to run stuff as root anyway
Dec 22 20:30:00 <freemangordon> but we are still in point 1 - user action is needed
Dec 22 20:31:01 <kerio> no, we push a new version of n900-fmtx-enabler, if it works
Dec 22 20:31:09 <freemangordon> aah, ok
Dec 22 20:31:32 <kerio> the visible name will be something user-friendly related to a system upgrade
Dec 22 20:31:46 <freemangordon> ok, makes sense
Dec 22 20:32:12 <kerio> can user package require reboots?
Dec 22 20:32:18 <freemangordon> and we can push a link to CSSU on desktop
Dec 22 20:32:26 <freemangordon> kerio: don;t think so
Dec 22 20:33:17 <freemangordon> anyway, all this have to wait until we have control ovler maemo.org
Dec 22 20:33:23 <freemangordon> *over
Dec 22 20:36:03 <kerio> freemangordon: in the mean time, every cssu should ship the current n900-fmtx-enabler but with a bigass epoch
Dec 22 20:36:20 <kerio> and fix the repos
Dec 22 20:36:56 <freemangordon> fix? how? we don;t have new key
Dec 22 20:37:41 <freemangordon> kerio: BTW we should test if it works first (the package)
Dec 22 20:38:05 <kerio> by the way, why can't we just disable the fucking trust-level check?
Dec 22 20:38:18 <freemangordon> But i'll leave that to someone more knowledgeable than me
Dec 22 20:38:38 <freemangordon> kerio: what's wrong with it?
Dec 22 20:38:49 <kerio> for instance, it makes the nokia repo not work if there's no valid gpg key
Dec 22 20:38:50 <kerio> :)
Dec 22 20:39:21 <kerio> it's disableable by writing to ~/.osso/hildon-application-manager
Dec 22 22:22:03 <kerio> freemangordon: we can test your fmtx-enabler idea by changing the keys and the address of the maemo repo with one made by us
Dec 22 22:40:15 <tadzik> is there any nice portrait mode virtual keyboard that people use?
Dec 22 22:56:33 <DocScrutinizer05> not afaik
Dec 22 22:56:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I might be wrong though
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