**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 01 02:59:58 2013 Jan 01 08:13:37 Hi could someone direct me to which VM image to use from here (http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php) to compile for fremantle in scartchbox Jan 01 08:15:31 I'd try the one with fremantle in the description Jan 01 08:16:48 thanks Jan 01 10:08:55 anyone help me with uboot Jan 01 10:27:51 if you ask, someone might Jan 01 10:29:30 yes getting Jan 01 11:21:12 How do you power on an N900 with kernel power and CSSU when it is charging? I keep pressing the power on button and it keeps taking me through weird splash screens. I have to remove the charger to get it to boot Jan 01 11:21:42 Pretty annoying since I just plugged in the charger to upgrade CSSU (it was refusing), now it won't boot Jan 01 11:25:23 unrelated to CSSU Jan 01 11:25:41 probably old KP Jan 01 11:26:25 2.6.28-10power50 Jan 01 11:28:10 you have uboot? Jan 01 11:29:41 I haven't touched the boot loader since I bought the phone Jan 01 11:30:24 It's uboot by default, yeah? Jan 01 11:30:30 no Jan 01 11:30:48 oh, well, then no, I don't have uboot :) Jan 01 11:31:26 I remove the charger from the wall socket and it boots, though Jan 01 12:02:03 weird Jan 01 12:02:09 ACT_DEAD confusion? Jan 01 12:19:18 I am getting error while doing u-boot-update-bootmenu Jan 01 12:19:26 sourav: which error? Jan 01 12:19:41 invalid file-missing kernel Jan 01 12:19:55 this is just a wild guess, mind you Jan 01 12:20:01 but i think there might be a missing file Jan 01 12:20:26 okay what I did is installed uboot Jan 01 12:20:38 no, hold on Jan 01 12:20:44 where are you getting this error message? Jan 01 12:21:05 from terminal Jan 01 12:21:14 because it's normal that stuff like, say, backupmenu gives out that error Jan 01 12:21:53 what about the piggyback kernel? Jan 01 12:22:10 what about it? Jan 01 12:22:19 does that load? Jan 01 12:22:31 or only when adding new kernels? Jan 01 12:22:43 i didn't restarted Jan 01 12:22:50 with fear Jan 01 12:23:00 sourav: error messages when parsing fanoush bootmenu entries are expected and normal Jan 01 12:23:21 sourav: pastebin the output if you're worried Jan 01 12:23:59 okay give me one minute Jan 01 12:30:20 uBoot is unrelated to fanoush's bootmenu and shouldn't even touch those config files, except for importing stuff on explicit user command Jan 01 12:30:36 blame pali and ask for this getting fixed Jan 01 12:32:45 spitting error msgs when there's no real error (known as "expected to fail") shouldn't show up anywhere either. You got all sorts of shell scripting tools to avoid such errors, starting with `test` command and not ending with redirection of stderr Jan 01 12:34:15 it's more like a "Entry 'backupmenu.item' not a valid uboot bootmenu entry" Jan 01 12:43:19 exactly what I say: the two systems are largely unrelated, and shouldn't get mixed up by uboot install procedure Jan 01 12:44:55 there are most likely some uBoot configs that user doesn't want to show up in bootmenu, and there are bootmenu items that are meaningless to uBoot and thus throw errors Jan 01 12:45:59 no uboot configs show up in fanoush bootmenu Jan 01 12:46:03 it's like using same config for several alternative mail related programs. You wouldn't want your thunderbird and sendmail configs mixed up in a mess in one directory, would you? Jan 01 12:47:41 of course not Jan 01 12:47:54 but otoh, it would break backwards compatibility Jan 01 12:47:56 the correct way for mail was to start a tool sendmail-import-from-thunderbird on user's discretion, and otherwise keep the two config domains separate Jan 01 12:48:13 for uBoot all the same Jan 01 12:48:13 happy 2013 Jan 01 12:48:23 happy 2013 chem|st :-D Jan 01 12:48:27 * chem|st rises from last night's ashes Jan 01 12:48:42 chem|st: i'm not sure anyone lives in UTC-12 Jan 01 12:49:07 kerio: wishes for new year are not moot when new year already started Jan 01 12:49:48 you could argue that some believe too early congratualtions and wishes bring bad luck Jan 01 12:52:27 DocScrutinizer06: thus, the only correct congratulations are the one you give exactly as the calendar rolls over Jan 01 12:52:29 and it must be instant Jan 01 12:52:33 *they Jan 01 12:52:59 why? Jan 01 12:53:13 because too early isn't ok, and too late is too late Jan 01 12:53:18 :) Jan 01 12:53:24 too late is BS Jan 01 12:53:38 there is no such thing like "too late" Jan 01 12:54:04 kerio: then a happy armageddon+12 Jan 01 12:54:18 it's kinda gross to blame somebody for best wishes he offers Jan 01 12:54:29 DocScrutinizer06: happy 2012 Jan 01 12:55:04 DocScrutinizer06: <3 Jan 01 12:55:08 you wanna continue giving the party pooper here? Jan 01 12:55:14 incoming kick? Jan 01 12:55:23 pending Jan 01 12:55:43 :c Jan 01 12:55:44 and we are 13 hours after utc 2013 and that is what counts! Jan 01 12:55:55 happy 2013 everybody Jan 01 12:56:04 FIQ|n900: +1 Jan 01 12:56:10 FIQ|n900: +13 Jan 01 12:56:21 DocScrutinizer06: behave! Jan 01 12:56:27 same to you all (except kerio wo doesn't appreciate best wishes) Jan 01 13:05:56 re act_dead vs boot-from-charging: allegedly this got fixed for KP50 or KP51 by either pali or freemangordon Jan 01 13:06:24 iirc KP50 Jan 01 13:12:20 freemangordon: thanks, was it you or pali? Jan 01 13:12:36 freemangordon: I think you found the bug Jan 01 13:23:13 DocScrutinizer05: yep Jan 01 13:36:57 sorry kerio my battery was out and i have to restart it now in reboot loops Jan 01 13:45:30 battery out and bootlooping hu Jan 01 13:45:31 h Jan 01 13:45:31 neat Jan 01 13:45:52 well, turn it on with the keyboard open and at the prompt type "run attachboot" Jan 01 13:48:21 it did some readings and rebooted Jan 01 13:50:26 sourav: you're aware that bootloop doesn't charge battery, are you? Jan 01 13:51:19 kerio: run attachboot? Jan 01 13:51:30 to launch the attached kernel, iirc Jan 01 13:51:33 aka omap1 Jan 01 13:51:36 mhm Jan 01 13:51:43 yes so for that i use wallcharger Jan 01 13:51:47 so uboot menu Jan 01 13:52:31 sourav: how's using wallcharger related to non-charging in bootloop? Jan 01 13:54:36 my battery was 0% i treid to switch on but that's not possible so i charged my battery with wallcharger Jan 01 13:54:44 kerio: I thought sourav said he doesn't use any uBoot? Jan 01 13:55:02 maybe i'm confused, but wasn't his problem that he was trying to configure uboot? Jan 01 13:55:22 yep Jan 01 13:55:26 now when switching on getting penguin type image Jan 01 13:55:44 ooh, I mixed two users, josuah and sourav Jan 01 13:55:56 sorry Jan 01 13:55:57 hu Jan 01 13:56:03 sourav: when you say wallcharger, do you mean an external charger? Jan 01 13:56:26 yes Jan 01 13:56:32 :-S Jan 01 13:56:33 because the wallcharger is the nokia charger with the microusb plug Jan 01 13:56:58 sorry its external charger Jan 01 13:57:57 well then you're safe Jan 01 13:58:01 aka (wallwart) (genuine Nokia) fastcharger Jan 01 13:58:14 vs external charger Jan 01 13:58:38 wallcharger is a rather ambiguous and unfortunate term Jan 01 13:59:08 apologize Jan 01 13:59:21 what should i do now Jan 01 13:59:34 charge the battery, for instance :) Jan 01 13:59:45 charged it Jan 01 13:59:48 once it's charged, try turning your n900 on with the keyboard open Jan 01 13:59:59 then get to the uboot prompt, and type "run attachboot" Jan 01 14:00:00 did it Jan 01 14:00:13 yes then Jan 01 14:01:11 it reads and after nearly 3-4 sec it rebooted Jan 01 14:01:17 hm Jan 01 14:01:40 did you change your kernel? Jan 01 14:02:02 i am on kpv51r1 Jan 01 14:02:26 reflash it Jan 01 14:02:42 get the .fiasco image from the deb Jan 01 14:02:55 and then use flasher-3.5 to flash it, from a computer Jan 01 14:03:11 okay got it Jan 01 14:03:24 ar x .deb; tar xfv control.tar.gz Jan 01 14:03:26 but what can be the problem Jan 01 14:03:39 sourav: do you have cssu-thumb installed, perchance? Jan 01 14:03:47 yes Jan 01 14:04:00 well that explains it Jan 01 14:04:00 oops, no more omap kernel for you Jan 01 14:04:05 indeed Jan 01 14:04:22 i'd even remove the kernel/kernel-flasher/kernel-modules packages Jan 01 14:04:33 so you don't risk booting it at all Jan 01 14:04:48 sourav: the standard uboot image has the stock kernel attached to it Jan 01 14:05:04 you can't boot from that, it doesn't have the fix for thumb2 binaries Jan 01 14:05:57 the joy of thumbified system Jan 01 14:06:20 oh shush, you Jan 01 14:08:30 then how to use it ? Jan 01 14:08:39 if you have the kp modules already installed, just flash the kp kernel Jan 01 14:08:58 sourav: install kernel-power-bootimg, pretty much Jan 01 14:09:11 and then configure uboot to use that as the default Jan 01 14:09:39 okay guys posting what i did tell me what i did wrong Jan 01 14:10:17 well, install bootimg and uboot AFTER you get your system booting again Jan 01 14:10:18 installed uboot through ham uboot 2012.10-rc3-1 Jan 01 14:10:45 after flashing kp, you need to reinstall uboot Jan 01 14:11:43 jon tell me what i did wrong,let me complete Jan 01 14:12:12 first uboot then bootimg then u-boot-update-bootmenu Jan 01 14:12:28 is that right Jan 01 14:12:35 sourav: oh, you should be able to boot from the installed bootimg Jan 01 14:12:39 the kp51 one Jan 01 14:12:51 boot with the keyboard open, it'll give you a menu Jan 01 14:13:14 yes kp51 Jan 01 14:14:37 ya it gave the menu, selecting run attachboot Jan 01 14:14:46 no, don't run attachboot Jan 01 14:14:56 the attached kernel is useless for you Jan 01 14:15:02 you have to select kp51 Jan 01 14:15:39 if the kp selection is not there, you'll need to flash kp onto it to replace uboot Jan 01 14:15:50 jon_y: well, not necessarily Jan 01 14:15:56 you can load kp51 on a uSD :) Jan 01 14:15:56 you can redo uboot after your system boots properly Jan 01 14:16:18 that works too if you have a spare Jan 01 14:20:39 how to load kp on usd Jan 01 14:20:53 sourav: you should already have kp51 in the uboot menu Jan 01 14:21:38 no Jan 01 14:22:22 kerio: the friggin uboot-update-bootmenu (or whatsthename) threw error Jan 01 14:22:28 no it didn't Jan 01 14:22:52 kerio: you'll need to toss over the real uBoot command to boot kp51 Jan 01 14:23:10 http://pastebin.ca/2298487 <- this is a correct output from u-boot-update-bootmenu Jan 01 14:23:50 ouuuuuuuch! Jan 01 14:24:49 but whats that invalid file-missing kernel Jan 01 14:24:55 anyway, could you provide a uBoot menu screenshotß Jan 01 14:25:04 sourav: backupmenu isn't a uboot entry Jan 01 14:25:06 sourav: bogus bullshit Jan 01 14:25:12 ...pretty much, yes Jan 01 14:25:29 DocScrutinizer05: i'm not sure if i have another digital camera Jan 01 14:26:03 could you paste the original uBoot init file? Jan 01 14:26:35 unlike most of you I prefer that over some messy bootmenu entries Jan 01 14:26:56 since it *really* shows what uboot gonna do Jan 01 14:30:08 tbh I never got it how bootmenu would boot other kernels at all - except when it's part of friggin maemo-multiboot Jan 01 14:30:52 there's no original uboot init file Jan 01 14:31:04 nonsense Jan 01 14:31:06 if there's no "bootmenu.scr" in the first vfat partition, it defaults to... something Jan 01 14:31:15 when there wasn't then uBoot wouldn't even boot Jan 01 14:31:16 probably a menu with "run attached kernel" and "enter uboot console" Jan 01 14:32:07 unless the built in defaults of uboot are somewhat making sense for some standard bootup Jan 01 14:32:14 indeed :) Jan 01 14:32:26 i'm not sure of what's going to happen if you use the uboot without an attached kernel Jan 01 14:32:30 probably just the console Jan 01 14:33:01 kerio: can you post the .item for resque OS? Jan 01 14:33:05 thanks Jan 01 14:33:58 what's the use if .item when you're missing the necessary files for that? Jan 01 14:34:09 s/ if( of/ Jan 01 14:34:16 s/ if/ of/ Jan 01 14:34:19 DocScrutinizer05 meant: s/ of( of/ Jan 01 14:34:52 Does he now Jan 01 14:34:58 kerio: did you attach kp yourself? Jan 01 14:35:27 jon_y: yep, i kinda wanted to make sure that i could boot regardless of the status of the eMMC Jan 01 14:35:48 so at the very least i can get to the fbootmenu recovery console Jan 01 14:35:54 jon_y: http://pastebin.ca/2298488 Jan 01 14:35:55 * DocScrutinizer05 sighs Jan 01 14:36:24 kerio: where does initrd gets installed to? /boot too? Jan 01 14:36:47 jon_y: you have to put the files in /boot or /opt/boot and then run u-boot-update-bootmenu so the images are converted for uboot and placed in MyDocs/bootmenu.img.d Jan 01 14:37:23 I know where the kernel goes, initrd also goes to those places? Jan 01 14:37:38 OUUUUCH! Jan 01 14:37:51 jon_y: yep Jan 01 14:37:58 DocScrutinizer05: you seem to be hurting for some reason Jan 01 14:38:13 if i have thumb installed then can't i use uboot Jan 01 14:38:27 kerio: ok, also which script do you use to attach kp52? Jan 01 14:38:40 u-boot-gen-combined Jan 01 14:38:46 ooh Jan 01 14:38:50 but first you have to convert the zImage into an uImage Jan 01 14:39:00 to add a pop3 account to procmail, add the following files and .config entries to your thunderbird directory: .... >:-o Jan 01 14:39:01 I'll need to investigate that tomorrow Jan 01 14:39:20 I think u-boot-update-menu already does that somewhere Jan 01 14:39:32 *the uImage thing Jan 01 14:39:35 yep Jan 01 14:40:14 thanks kerio Jan 01 14:40:16 * jon_y off to sleep now Jan 01 14:40:26 I'm tempted to declare u-boot-update-menu a deprectaed botch Jan 01 14:41:48 complain to pali Jan 01 14:42:53 well i reflashed my device now how can i use uboot Jan 01 14:45:24 uboot is for booting different kernels. different kernels need different kernel modules in root filesystem. and A thombifid system needs a matching kernel anyway Jan 01 14:46:08 sourav: what did you reflash? :o Jan 01 14:46:21 so the first question isn't "how can I use uBoot?" but "what do I want to accomplish and do I need uBoot for that, or can it be done at all?" Jan 01 14:47:12 the first part of second question is sth only you can answer Jan 01 14:49:26 i was planning to install nemo Jan 01 14:49:50 standard uBoot comes in a config that per default boots to stock kernel and stock rootfs system. If you changed your rootfs system to thumb, it won't work with the kernel that comes with uBoot Jan 01 14:50:28 other kernels and systems (like nemo) need special installation to uBoot Jan 01 14:51:04 uBoot somewhat supports a 'standard' secondary OS to boot, installed on uSD Jan 01 14:51:27 it however does NOT support primary system = thumb Jan 01 14:51:44 and that's your 2problem" Jan 01 14:51:51 and that's your "problem" Jan 01 14:51:59 what do you mean it doesn't :o Jan 01 14:52:25 shouldbepossibletoworkaround Jan 01 14:52:38 +spaces Jan 01 14:52:52 isn't that obvious? I elaborated that uBoot comes with stock kernel attached, and stock kernel doesn't work for thombified system Jan 01 14:53:12 FredrIQ|n900: yep, thus I placed "problem" into ticks Jan 01 14:53:13 so don't use the attached kernel, use something else Jan 01 14:54:23 kerio: I know the sitaution, the issues, and the solution. But it seemed to me you failed to explain any of that to sourav Jan 01 14:54:37 :s i tried Jan 01 14:56:00 well both of you explained me very deeply thanks Jan 01 14:56:39 so what i got till now is to wait till an update to uboot Jan 01 14:56:43 I think the probelm sourav is facing could be summarized as: wants to use uBoot eventually to run sth like nemo etc, but right now fails to make thumb system run with uBoot which he'll eventually need to boot nemo. So first we need to explain to him how to set up a stock uBoot pkg so it will boot to thumb system per default Jan 01 14:57:16 sourav: such update is unlikely to happen any soonish Jan 01 14:57:27 yes please continue doc Jan 01 14:57:57 how to get it working with thumb Jan 01 14:58:19 you'll need to add a proper configuration plus the needed KP image to uBoot config, and make uBoot boot that KP zImage instead of the attached stock kernel Jan 01 14:58:40 by default Jan 01 14:58:44 preferably Jan 01 14:59:12 or you dive in head first, and build your own uBoot+KP combo Jan 01 14:59:51 if that's even possible, regarding the limited space in kernel partition and increased size of KP compared to stock kernel Jan 01 15:00:23 it's possible Jan 01 15:00:48 sourav: uBoot lives in kernel partition (cat /proc/mtd) and it's a 'header' to any default kernel attached and living in same partition Jan 01 15:01:07 this is the kernel uBoot boots by default Jan 01 15:01:25 both uBoot and the attached kernel come with uBoot package Jan 01 15:01:40 the standard uBoot package contains stock kernel Jan 01 15:02:01 this stock kernel will fail with your thumb system Jan 01 15:04:24 okay got it Jan 01 15:04:31 afaik there's even a version of uboot attached to kp in repositories Jan 01 15:04:35 so your options are a) don't use thumb binaries in your default root fs b) attach a KP51/2 to the uBoot header before flashing the thing to /dev/mtd3 c) make uBoot boot kernel from a zImage somewhere on NAND or eMMC or uSD Jan 01 15:04:41 FredrIQ|n900: it's outdated Jan 01 15:04:59 hmmmmm ok Jan 01 15:05:19 @ kerio Jan 01 15:05:47 indeed there been a uBoot+KP47 or something Jan 01 15:06:13 but that KP (whatever version it been) doesn't support thumb rootfs Jan 01 15:06:27 you'd need a up-to-date version of that Jan 01 15:06:35 yeah Jan 01 15:06:37 uBoot+KP52 Jan 01 15:06:49 hmm Jan 01 15:07:05 yeah combo one Jan 01 15:07:10 would be the best solution Jan 01 15:07:30 somebody should build and ship such pkg Jan 01 15:07:55 nice idea Jan 01 15:08:20 sourav: yep, it'd solve your "problem" Jan 01 15:09:18 not only mine but many others Jan 01 15:09:20 http://maemo.org/packages/view/uboot-power/ Jan 01 15:09:33 maintainer: mag Jan 01 15:10:15 yep Jan 01 15:10:17 see changelog ;-P Jan 01 15:10:53 maybe pali could take maintainership of that package and do an update Jan 01 15:11:06 it isn't been updated since 2010 Jan 01 15:11:19 sourav: it wont help you as of now Jan 01 15:11:32 due to outdated kp but yes Jan 01 15:12:21 i will try to contact pali for pkg Jan 01 15:13:01 but rightnow i need to restore my backup http://maemo.org/packages/package_instance/view/fremantle_extras-devel_free_armel/backupmenu/1.2.0-1/ Jan 01 15:13:19 sourav: alternatively you could pull the sources and build the "binary pkg" yourself, with recent KP Jan 01 15:13:23 its gives dependencies error Jan 01 15:13:30 make sure you install a kernel that matches the modules in your backup Jan 01 15:14:02 you need same kernel you had when you made that backup Jan 01 15:14:22 BM doesn't backup the kernel itself, only the kernel modules Jan 01 15:14:28 ^ I found out that the hard way once... Jan 01 15:14:39 if you restore the "wrong" kernel modules, you earn a bootloop Jan 01 15:14:53 and a broken backupmenu Jan 01 15:14:54 want these to be installed bootmenu, tar-gnu, i2c-tools, mtd-utils, libacl1 Jan 01 15:15:03 i.e. mandatory reflash needed Jan 01 15:16:39 is there anyway i can install BM and install these without apt-get updating Jan 01 15:16:50 probably you could move away your /lib/modules, restore, the move /lib/modules back into place and do a depmod -a Jan 01 15:17:04 then move* Jan 01 15:18:04 DocScrutinizer05: speaking of backupmenu, why does "recovery console" just give a black screen? Jan 01 15:18:05 or you install same kernel you had before/when you did that backup, then restore, then install whatever kernel you like Jan 01 15:18:27 FIQ|n900: afaik it only works with powerkernel Jan 01 15:18:35 FIQ|n900: recovery console is separate from backupmenu Jan 01 15:18:37 well I have kp Jan 01 15:18:40 stock kernel has no fb Jan 01 15:18:44 and it needs a fbcon module Jan 01 15:18:58 kerio: hmm but it's a backupmenu option :p Jan 01 15:19:10 it's a bootmenu option Jan 01 15:19:13 a fbootmenu Jan 01 15:19:29 sec I'll reboot Jan 01 15:19:44 kerio: eh? bootmenu option? Jan 01 15:20:11 aiui it's a function built in to backupmenu Jan 01 15:20:38 that's root console Jan 01 15:20:45 no, "Recovery console" is a separate boot menu entry Jan 01 15:21:01 in the recovery-boot package Jan 01 15:21:11 meh Jan 01 15:21:18 never looked into that Jan 01 15:21:24 it's neat Jan 01 15:21:30 it gives you a shell at the bootmenu level Jan 01 15:23:30 anything on this http://pastebin.com/Uehfu0UK Jan 01 15:23:54 duh Jan 01 15:24:01 of course it works when I ask why it doesn't work Jan 01 15:24:20 sourav: well... use apt Jan 01 15:24:26 you're missing dependencies Jan 01 15:24:56 yes i know so here no use of deb Jan 01 15:38:00 souarv: you should install BM via HAM Jan 01 15:38:15 which would have resolved the dependencies Jan 01 15:38:42 for now you could install i2ctools Jan 01 15:38:45 that's annoying but will have to do so Jan 01 15:38:54 to satisfy the loose dependencies Jan 01 15:39:03 i have all the debs Jan 01 15:39:15 dependencies deb Jan 01 15:40:07 can the maintainers integrate all dependencies in the single deb Jan 01 15:40:19 the whole point of package managers is that you don't have to do that Jan 01 15:40:28 it would lead to some sort of linux DLL hell Jan 01 15:41:22 souarv: however take care - i2ctools pkg preinstall will probably pop up a requester on H-D screen Jan 01 15:42:16 so it tends to "fail" for you when run via ssh login from PC Jan 01 15:42:57 also probably will fail unless you do run-standalone.sh dpkg ... Jan 01 15:50:56 thanks DocScrutinizer Jan 01 15:52:03 yw Jan 01 16:07:13 * kerio has no attached kernel flashed now Jan 01 18:34:45 http://www.businessinsider.com/sayonara-netbooks-asus-and-the-rest-wont-make-any-more-in-2013-2013-1 Jan 01 18:34:48 worst, news, ever. Jan 01 18:43:45 not much of a surprise with the way tablet computing has been making its stand. Jan 01 18:44:15 why buy a netbook when you can just get a tablet pc and just get a case with a blue tooth keyboard. Jan 01 18:44:56 that is some sad new for the open pandora project though. Jan 01 18:45:22 how is openpandora related? Jan 01 18:45:38 well it is a rather tiny netbook when you think about it. Jan 01 18:45:54 well yes Jan 01 18:45:56 and if netbooks are getting obsoleted who would want to buy a mini netbook Jan 01 18:46:16 uh... Jan 01 18:46:24 especialy since a android tablet really out does them anymore. Jan 01 18:47:14 ofc then again the world thought maemo would die out to, yet here we are. Jan 01 18:55:56 a tablet doesn't replace a netbook Jan 01 18:55:58 an ultrabook does Jan 01 18:56:04 the openpandora is a handheld console Jan 01 18:56:20 the physical keyboard is way too important Jan 01 18:56:32 that's why the N900 never dies... and netbooks never will! (well ultrabooks are fine replacements) Jan 01 18:57:40 all tablet pc's carry bluetooth now and most have bluetooth keyboard cases if not a universal one that works with them, so tbh they can easily be made in to netbooks. Jan 01 19:22:47 why "make sth into a netbook" when you can get a real netbook instead? Jan 01 19:25:11 in my book it's not the consumer that decides he wants tablets, it's the industry that hypes tablets and consumers buy whatever the week's hype, until they notice it's a PITA to use that win8 crap UX and the unspeakable virtual keyboard for writing anything more demanding than a tweet Jan 01 19:28:57 I think the trend is towards a tertiary "pc" device for very defined small set of usecases. While primary and secondary devices will pretty much stay what they ever been: full size desktop PC or "laptop" for primary, and notebook/netbook for secondary use Jan 01 19:30:00 for tertiary, e-books and tablets and whatnot else compete Jan 01 19:30:02 I don't understand how netbooks can be of any use to anyone. Jan 01 19:31:52 netbook is kinda cool, portable computer not dependent on ac socket, without android cripplings ;) Jan 01 19:33:25 And the addition over a regular small notebook is ...? ^^ Jan 01 19:33:48 n900 is my netbook Jan 01 19:33:49 np Jan 01 19:34:00 hah Jan 01 19:34:29 Aoyagi: dunno, I guess a netbook is defined as a small notebook Jan 01 19:35:00 well, maybe with some more "sophisticated" connectivity support Jan 01 19:35:11 I'm pretty sure "netbook" is defined by its low-class (and low powered) CPU, Atoms and alike. Jan 01 19:35:42 * Aoyagi consults the interntet Jan 01 19:35:51 uhuh, and who's doing that definition? Jan 01 19:36:24 Hm. I was just being more specific than necessary. Jan 01 19:36:28 probably you'll have to ask those who originally use the term, anyway. Those will be the marketing drones Jan 01 19:36:41 small, lightweight, legacy-free, and inexpensive laptop computers. Jan 01 19:36:56 The "inexpensive" part is what I was talking about. :) Jan 01 19:37:03 (c) Wikipedia Jan 01 19:37:09 :shrug: Jan 01 19:37:36 also http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12/28/2012_year_netbooks_died/ Jan 01 19:37:42 so your question >> And the addition over a regular small notebook is ...? ^^<< is rather meaningless, no? Jan 01 19:38:27 Well yeah, it was a rhetorical question :D Jan 01 19:39:44 not even that Jan 01 19:40:15 I'm guessing words like "useless" and "annoying" come to your mind. Jan 01 19:41:03 more like "irritating" Jan 01 19:41:18 Yeah... Jan 01 19:43:15 like "what's the advantage of an AK47 over a kalashnikov?" Jan 01 19:43:38 That doesn't make sense. Jan 01 19:43:40 There are multiple models of Kalashnikov machine gun Jan 01 19:43:45 So, do specify Jan 01 19:43:50 Oh. Jan 01 19:43:55 So it does make sense. Jan 01 19:45:02 But the internet says AK-47 = Kalashnikov...oh well, nevermind. Jan 01 19:46:08 it make as much or as little sense as your question did Jan 01 19:46:28 Note the word "regular" Jan 01 19:46:34 Internet actually says a lot if you know where to look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-47#Variants Jan 01 19:47:26 Well, those aren't really designed by certain Kalashnikov, they were only based on that person's design. Jan 01 19:47:55 Except for some Saiga rifle Jan 01 19:49:20