**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 17 02:59:59 2013
Apr 17 07:47:24 <vi__> who here can speak Italian?
Apr 17 07:47:31 <vi__> kerio: You are Italian right?
Apr 17 08:38:35 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> hi, where do I find the official images for the n900 for reflashing it
Apr 17 08:41:43 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> it's been months that I asked
Apr 17 08:41:53 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> I was told to come back later
Apr 17 08:42:20 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> because there is something like nokia to community infrastructure migration
Apr 17 08:42:22 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> I'm back
Apr 17 08:42:27 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> maybe the address changed?
Apr 17 08:43:14 <vi__> I have no idea.  I kept my own copies so I would never be stuck without.
Apr 17 08:43:18 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> ok
Apr 17 08:44:20 <fizzie> http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ is I think the mirror I've seen people talk about on channel.
Apr 17 08:44:30 <fizzie> (That's the sum total of my knowledge about the topic.)
Apr 17 08:44:47 <GNUtoo-N71JQ> thanks a lot
Apr 17 12:01:50 <Macer> hello
Apr 17 12:50:55 <Macer> anybody know of some good bug tracking style software that can be modified for industrial health and safety issues?
Apr 17 12:51:34 <r00t|home> on maemo?!
Apr 17 12:52:07 <rikanee> r00t|home: Well, don't let platform support stop him for using it for SCADA!
Apr 17 12:52:16 <rikanee> Isn't bugzilla a good candidate?
Apr 17 12:52:28 <jacekowski> Macer: flyspray?
Apr 17 12:53:07 <Macer> i guess
Apr 17 12:53:18 <Macer> i just need something that can be modified enough as to make custom areas :)
Apr 17 12:53:22 <Macer> but i guess any its would do huh?
Apr 17 12:53:34 <jacekowski> flyspray is great 
Apr 17 13:30:02 <vi__> Hey
Apr 17 13:30:15 <vi__> Is there some kind of alternative to m$ visual studio?
Apr 17 13:30:15 <Cor-Ai> no
Apr 17 13:30:23 <Cor-Ai> :D
Apr 17 13:30:43 <Cor-Ai> not this window i wantede! sry! dont mind me!
Apr 17 13:34:21 <rikanee> vi__: Eclipse (lol)
Apr 17 13:36:37 <Pali> ccxCZ: ping
Apr 17 13:37:04 <Pali> vi__: Qt Creator
Apr 17 13:37:20 <Pali> vi__: or KDevelop
Apr 17 13:38:05 <Pali> vi__: or vim + makefile + gcc + gdb + valgrind (but only for linux) :-)
Apr 17 13:52:51 <Pali> ccxCZ: that 0xFFFF bug which you reported is fixed now (in git)
Apr 17 13:53:06 <Pali> I was able to debug and it
Apr 17 13:53:37 <Pali> if there are no other reported bugs I will release new version of 0xFFFF which will be stable
Apr 17 13:58:46 <ccxCZ> Pali: pong
Apr 17 13:58:53 <ccxCZ> nice
Apr 17 13:59:14 <Pali> are you going to test 0xFFFF?
Apr 17 13:59:16 <ccxCZ> just got my external charger this weekend, so I might try again :-)
Apr 17 13:59:46 <ccxCZ> first I'll have to debug why /dev/usb doesn't show on my laptop though
Apr 17 14:00:12 <jacekowski> it shouldn't
Apr 17 14:00:19 <jacekowski> there is no /dev/usb
Apr 17 14:01:05 <Pali> there is /dev/bus/usb/
Apr 17 14:01:16 <ccxCZ> yeah, that's the one
Apr 17 14:01:45 <rikanee> Pali: only dependency of 0xFFFF is libusb, right?
Apr 17 14:01:49 <ccxCZ> replacement for older thing in sysfs iirc
Apr 17 14:02:21 <Pali> rikanee, yes (gnu libc and gcc too...)
Apr 17 14:03:11 <Pali> ccxCZ, it was somewhere in /proc/
Apr 17 14:03:19 <Pali> maybe you have broken udev
Apr 17 14:03:26 <rikanee> ah. I'll try to build a static version for ARMel, and see if I can flash N900 from Android device (or even from iOS devices)
Apr 17 14:03:37 <ccxCZ> maybe I have no udev :-)
Apr 17 14:03:51 <Pali> rikanee, you should be able to do it
Apr 17 14:03:53 <ccxCZ> been a while since I've tackled it so I forgot the proper paths
Apr 17 14:03:57 <Pali> but I did not tested it
Apr 17 14:04:25 <ccxCZ> but my other pc with the pretty much same userspace works, so I blame the kernel config
Apr 17 14:04:34 <Pali> ccxCZ, then you need to create character devices yourself
Apr 17 14:05:17 <ccxCZ> mdev on both machines, same config, should be at least
Apr 17 14:05:31 <Pali> see if you have usb devices in /sys/bus/usb/devices/
Apr 17 14:05:46 <Pali> for each device entry there should be "dev" file
Apr 17 14:05:59 <Pali> where is "major:minor"
Apr 17 14:06:18 <Pali> which means major and minor number for character device in /dev/bus/usb
Apr 17 14:07:00 <ccxCZ> yup, it's there
Apr 17 14:07:15 <Pali> rikanee, 0xFFFF needs old (legacy) version of libusb, not version 1.0
Apr 17 14:07:33 <Pali> ccxCZ, so then mdev did not created character devices...
Apr 17 14:07:38 <rikanee> Pali: ah, thanks for the heads-up. I was wondering why it didn't work on Archlinux.
Apr 17 14:07:48 <ccxCZ> yeah, it's pretty weird
Apr 17 14:08:22 <Pali> rikanee, Skry already created 0xFFFF package in arch repository
Apr 17 14:08:48 <ccxCZ> I need to set up some proper logging on the kernel hotplug handler
Apr 17 14:09:21 <Pali> rikanee, you need arch package libusb-compat
Apr 17 14:09:55 <rikanee> Got it. I thought the new libusb (libusbx?) was plain compatible with the old one.
Apr 17 14:10:34 <Pali> no, new libusb 1.0 is incompatible with old libusb
Apr 17 14:11:00 <Pali> libusbx should be compatible with libusb 1.0 (but again not with old libusb)
Apr 17 14:11:45 <jacekowski> that's the thing you love about linux
Apr 17 14:11:53 <jacekowski> everything is incompatible
Apr 17 14:12:23 <Pali> jacekowski, where is problem?
Apr 17 14:12:33 <Pali> new libusb has another name
Apr 17 14:12:40 <Pali> new libusb has new interface
Apr 17 14:12:49 <jacekowski> but libusb 1.0 is incompatible with older versions
Apr 17 14:12:54 <Pali> so you can have both libraries in system
Apr 17 14:13:33 <Pali> jacekowski, old and new libusb are different implementation of userspace usb access
Apr 17 14:14:04 <Pali> new libusb has cleaned api
Apr 17 14:14:43 <Pali> I think this was good step. create new library which will have fixed API & ABI and rename it
Apr 17 14:14:46 <jacekowski> incompatible API
Apr 17 14:14:57 <jacekowski> no it wasn't
Apr 17 14:15:17 <jacekowski> it worked and now you have two incompatible implementations of same thing
Apr 17 14:15:30 <Pali> and what will be better? using hacks in *new* applications because old libusb has some problems?
Apr 17 14:16:01 <Pali> then we will have new windows
Apr 17 14:16:39 <Pali> compatible with 16bit systems with all stupid winapi functions which have lot of deprecated arguments...
Apr 17 14:18:33 <jacekowski> s/new\ windows/operating\ system\ that\ has\ most\ of\ the\ marketshare/
Apr 17 14:18:38 <rikanee> Pali: half the system is wasted on wrapper functions ;)
Apr 17 14:19:34 <rikanee> There are actually just a handful of real DLL files needed by Windows itself, they're named "api-ms-win-something-something.dll", the rest is layers upon layers of compatibility hacks.
Apr 17 14:20:35 <Pali> plus wrappers for other languages and VM...
Apr 17 14:27:44 * ccxCZ wonders why mdev traverses /sys/class for coldplugging instead of /sys/devices
Apr 17 14:30:19 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: full ack
Apr 17 14:34:16 <vi__> looks like I am using visual studio.  The company would rather pay £800 to 'keep everything the same' than use something else.
Apr 17 14:45:13 <ccxCZ> at least there's vi mode for visual studio :-)
Apr 17 14:46:43 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
Apr 17 14:51:54 <rikanee> vi__, are you at least using VS 2008?
Apr 17 14:52:03 <rikanee> 2010 and newer are slow as dog shit.
Apr 17 15:01:11 <Pali> visual studio nor any other MS application does not have valgrind support
Apr 17 15:01:39 <Pali> or application with valgrind features
Apr 17 15:08:00 <vi__> I just downloaded visual studio c# express 2012.
Apr 17 15:08:09 <vi__> We shall see how this goes.
Apr 17 15:14:41 <vi__> Who is a cheap courier service to get something shipped from germany to the UK?
Apr 17 15:20:51 <r00t|home> vi__: dhl? ;)
Apr 17 15:23:40 <vi__> TNT, 27euro.
Apr 17 15:23:43 <vi__> mmm
Apr 17 15:27:40 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, I used M$-VS last time ~2000 and it wasn't that bad, for editor etc
Apr 17 15:28:03 <DocScrutinizer05> (ok, this been for VB. No comments please!)
Apr 17 15:28:23 <vi__> But I am able to send parcels TO Germany for only 15euro.  What T F Germany?
Apr 17 15:28:50 <DocScrutinizer05> wheep a bit
Apr 17 15:29:08 <DocScrutinizer05> -h
Apr 17 15:30:14 <r00t|home> vi__: what's the size/weigt....
Apr 17 15:30:25 <r00t|home> *weight...
Apr 17 15:30:33 <vi__> 65*15*15cm @6kg
Apr 17 15:30:39 <DocScrutinizer05> WTF UK - maybe the customs there are way more demanding
Apr 17 15:31:10 <vi__> It is widely known our customs and exercise are complete bastards.
Apr 17 15:31:13 <DocScrutinizer05> shipping a parcel isn't like a math algo that you can reverse
Apr 17 15:31:25 <vi__> A one way hash!
Apr 17 15:32:48 <vi__> UK customs will open your shit, charge you an extra 20%.  The post office will pay this then have you pay £10 for the service.
Apr 17 15:33:11 <vi__> cost of your stuff+20%+£10.
Apr 17 15:33:22 <r00t|home> <vi__> 65*15*15cm @6kg  <--- 20eur with dhl...
Apr 17 15:34:19 <sixwheeledbeast> mmm, got a friend that had a yoshi full system shipped from states and had the 20% sting. Still cheaper than buying in UK tho.
Apr 17 15:34:19 <r00t|home> if it was 60cm and 5kg, 15eur
Apr 17 15:35:11 <r00t|home> vi__: http://www.dhl.de/en/paket/pakete-versenden/weltweit-versenden/paket.html
Apr 17 15:35:40 <vi__> eh?
Apr 17 15:35:54 <vi__> according to dhl uk site it is £80.
Apr 17 15:36:09 <vi__> Are you sure that is a Germany -> Uk parcel?
Apr 17 15:36:38 <r00t|home> 80 pounds would be like max weight and size to some 3rd world country
Apr 17 15:36:49 <r00t|home> the page i linked is in english
Apr 17 15:37:34 <vi__> I am reading it now.  It is served from dhl.de.  There appears to be no dhl.co.uk equivalent.
Apr 17 15:38:17 <r00t|home> i wasn't even serious about suggesting dhl... it's just what you get if you go to the post office here
Apr 17 15:39:20 <vi__> It looks to be the cheapest so far, good suggestion.
Apr 17 15:41:46 <vi__> The actual shock is only 40cm long.
Apr 17 15:42:01 <vi__> They should be able to wrap it <60cm
Apr 17 15:42:30 <r00t|home> weight has to be <=5kg too to get into the cheaper class
Apr 17 15:43:24 <vi__> it is only 5euro more.
Apr 17 15:53:26 <r00t|home> vi__: it seems that dhl outside of germany only does express deliveries or business customers... which would be why it's so expensive on dhl.co.uk
Apr 17 15:57:10 <DocScrutinizer05> ordering a DE->UK shipment in DE is probably much cheaper than ordering same stuff from UK
Apr 17 15:57:15 <r00t|home> dhl's biggest competitor for private shipping inside germany... will ship to uk for 1eur less: https://www.myhermes.de/wps/portal/paket/Home/privatkunden/preise/paket ("Internationaler Versand")
Apr 17 15:57:36 <vi__> aaah, hermes.
Apr 17 15:57:45 <r00t|home> DocScrutinizer05: that too... and normally nobody would do the reverse anyway
Apr 17 15:57:52 <DocScrutinizer05> ordering from UK was like "instruct UK parcel service to pick up at foreign location"
Apr 17 15:58:24 <vi__> Time to take chem|st up on his offer to assist with a DE purchase!
Apr 17 15:58:40 * DocScrutinizer05 hides
Apr 17 15:59:37 <r00t|home> indeed... all germans, hide!
Apr 17 15:59:41 <r00t|home> <-- hides
Apr 17 15:59:57 <vi__> too late!
Apr 17 16:00:02 <vi__> I have your number now!
Apr 17 16:00:25 <r00t|home> IP number, eh?
Apr 17 16:01:20 <DocScrutinizer05> ever heard of VoIP? ;-P
Apr 17 16:01:59 * DocScrutinizer05 glares at his PC's speaker, waiting for it to start shouting commands
Apr 17 16:03:35 <DocScrutinizer05> on a unrelated sidenote: ISDN actually allws very finegrained remote control of each particular subsystem of your "phone", like microphone, speaker, earpiece, display...
Apr 17 16:03:50 <DocScrutinizer05> allows* (I've heard)
Apr 17 18:17:39 <kerio> vi__: i am italian, and i was also at the uni
Apr 17 18:17:49 <kerio> what do you need to be translated?
Apr 17 18:17:52 <kerio> and in which direction?
Apr 17 21:28:19 <DocScrutinizer51> ~botsnack
Apr 17 21:28:19 <infobot> aw, gee, DocScrutinizer51
Apr 17 21:32:37 <wxcafe> hmm
Apr 17 21:36:05 <DocScrutinizer51> ""Words guys like woody set up as laws? Where is the referendum on that? Few days discussion on a single thread, you missed, your fault, we rule now. Big FU to the community.""  FFS how dull can a single brain get?
Apr 17 21:37:58 <Woody14619> ???
Apr 17 21:38:27 <DocScrutinizer51> szopin
Apr 17 21:38:41 <DocScrutinizer51> hi Woody14619 
Apr 17 21:39:20 <DocScrutinizer51> every single word in this quote is BS
Apr 17 21:39:45 <DocScrutinizer51> EVERY! SINGLE! word
Apr 17 21:39:57 <RST38h> including "a""an" and "the"?
Apr 17 21:40:04 <DocScrutinizer51> yep
Apr 17 21:42:58 <DocScrutinizer51> I'd like to anser: been this meddley selected for showing the post you had most trouble to undertsand a single word, or did you pick those sippets that would suffer maximum crippling of sense by posting them without context?
Apr 17 21:43:05 <Woody14619> Done
Apr 17 21:49:23 <DocScrutinizer05> I still can't decide which weapon to use
Apr 17 21:50:24 <RST38h> So, gentlemen, are you talking about TMO posts, of all things?
Apr 17 21:51:11 <RST38h> Any reason why anyone would discuss a tmo post in a semi-decent place like this one?
Apr 17 21:53:13 <Woody14619> Because it could have an actual impact on the community?  Just a thought...
Apr 17 21:55:10 <DocScrutinizer05> I instructed HtheB to revert his thread teardown
Apr 17 21:55:27 <DocScrutinizer05> it's the worst thing you could do to this particular thread
Apr 17 21:57:17 <DocScrutinizer05> since when is bickering and fighting on tmo a reason to close a thread
Apr 17 21:57:54 <DocScrutinizer05> perticulrly one where really important stuff regarding community is "discussed" :-o
Apr 17 21:58:06 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly*
Apr 17 22:39:43 <chem|st> DocScrutinizer05: in particular, we decided on let threads die on their own if they get offtopic far enough they get lost anyway... in this case it is gone to far 6 pages ago and fine to be closed... what I read on the last page reflects most of the offtopic discussion's continuous repeating page2page...
Apr 17 22:40:20 <Woody14619> The problem being that the last rant is by someone who doens't have a clue as to what's going on.
Apr 17 22:40:36 <Woody14619> And by closing with that, people will assume that it's correct.
Apr 17 22:41:31 <Woody14619> Had it been closed 6 posts before that, or truncated (including removing the tiny quick  post I got in as a quick reply) that would be different.
Apr 17 22:42:01 <chem|st> I could delete all but the starting post...
Apr 17 22:42:08 <Woody14619> Thus the reason I tend to quick-post these days.... To get something in to refute, just in case a thread closes before I can compose a well thought out reply.
Apr 17 22:42:21 <chem|st> ?
Apr 17 22:42:28 <chem|st> does that happen frequently?
Apr 17 22:42:37 <chem|st> that is more of an issue for me
Apr 17 22:42:59 <Woody14619> I've had at least 3 times this month where I hit submit to find the thread was closed under me... so... I'm going to say yes. :)
Apr 17 22:43:43 <Woody14619> Though to be fair, those may have been the only three threads closed in the past month AFAIK.
Apr 17 22:45:17 <chem|st> Woody14619: I cut the firewood at the end for now
Apr 17 22:46:12 <Woody14619> Thanks... Will go check in a second... browser is rebooting atm. :P  Firefox V 20.0.1!  Yay?
Apr 17 22:47:26 <Woody14619> Close enough. :)
Apr 17 22:48:36 <chem|st> well you cannot delete all of it
Apr 17 22:48:58 <chem|st> steam is hard to catch!
Apr 17 22:49:05 <chem|st> good night!
Apr 17 22:49:10 <Woody14619> agreed. :)  Thanks again.
Apr 17 22:49:31 <chem|st> next time try a sane discussion with HtheB
Apr 17 22:49:49 <Woody14619> I thought I did? :(
Apr 17 22:49:50 <chem|st> I will talk to him about how he closed 2morrow
Apr 17 22:50:01 <chem|st> not sane enough it seems
Apr 17 22:50:36 <Woody14619> Well, to be fair, I got no notice about anything....   The only moderation comment in the thread was yours that I saw.
Apr 17 22:50:50 <Woody14619> And I did try to keep the tone civil.
Apr 17 22:51:10 <chem|st> ah no I ment directly not over the thread
Apr 17 22:51:19 <chem|st> after he closed it
Apr 17 22:51:50 <Woody14619> Again, I did send a PM to him.  I was more confused than anything, but... Guess I'll re-read and see if my tone was off.  
Apr 17 22:51:58 <Woody14619> Wasn't intentional if it was...
Apr 17 22:52:19 <chem|st> new moderators need to be petted the first month until they know not to bark at night not drink from the toilet and so on...
Apr 17 22:52:43 <chem|st> *monthS
Apr 17 22:52:49 <Woody14619> lol. :) well.  OK.
Apr 17 22:53:24 <chem|st> both HtheB and thdead1440 get into it pretty strong at times
Apr 17 22:53:27 <Woody14619> To be fair, I don't know him, so... Which is why I questioned why he close it.  I was hoping for dialog honeslt.
Apr 17 22:53:45 <chem|st> dead found his way around pretty fast though
Apr 17 22:53:47 <Woody14619> (eg something like this)
Apr 17 22:53:54 <Woody14619> I noticed. ;)
Apr 17 22:54:09 <Woody14619> Yet he still won't run for Council.... :P
Apr 17 22:54:26 <chem|st> needed a slap or two and is very good help with cleaning the mess
Apr 17 22:55:30 <chem|st> I am 4 years in now... ran for council with no love once (was on vacation to be honest)
Apr 17 22:55:45 <Woody14619> Well... You know....
Apr 17 22:55:49 <chem|st> got vetted for cssu and talk...
Apr 17 22:55:55 <Woody14619> There is this election coming up.... just saying.... ;)
Apr 17 22:56:04 <chem|st> and essential here is "got vetted"
Apr 17 22:56:10 * Woody14619 whistles and looks around at the ceiling...
Apr 17 22:57:04 <chem|st> night! ;)
Apr 17 22:59:04 <Woody14619> night! :)
Apr 17 23:20:04 <DocScrutinizer05> hehehe
Apr 17 23:20:30 <DocScrutinizer05> I was a bit instructive in my post to him, though not particularly rude
Apr 17 23:20:50 <DocScrutinizer05> all fine with what we have now
Apr 17 23:21:06 <DocScrutinizer05> except for the genral insanity in this whole thread
Apr 17 23:21:24 <DocScrutinizer05> but that's just the mirror of insanity in situ
Apr 17 23:25:35 <DocScrutinizer05> believe it or not, this day gave me some hope
Apr 17 23:25:51 <Woody14619> how so? :)
Apr 17 23:25:59 <DocScrutinizer05> PM
Apr 17 23:52:01 <DocScrutinizer05> GeneralAntilles: pingpingping p ing p i n gpi  ng p  ing
Apr 17 23:52:14 <GeneralAntilles> pong
Apr 17 23:57:59 <GeneralAntilles> DocScrutinizer05, pong
Apr 17 23:58:07 <DocScrutinizer05> howdy!!!
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 18 02:59:58 2013