**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 21 02:59:58 2013
May 21 05:44:06 <Addison_> Can someone help me just a little with trying to boot from an SD Card?
May 21 05:44:22 <Addison_> I'm following the directions on this page.
May 21 05:44:23 <Addison_> http://wiki.maemo.org/Booting_from_a_flash_card
May 21 06:03:13 <kerio> Addison_: boot what from an sd card?
May 21 06:10:55 <Gear_> hey
May 21 06:11:09 <Gear_> somehow the IR sensor? burned a hole in the screen
May 21 06:11:37 <Gear_> it melted a sort of little bump, how the hell did this happen? has anyone heard of this before?
May 21 06:12:20 <Gear_> it's not a hole, more like a tiny barely raised blister, but I'm not sure the sensor works anymore and I have NO idea how this happened overnight
May 21 06:12:27 <freemangordon_> Gear_: IR LED is next to camera buttton, I can't see a wa it to "burn" the screen ;)
May 21 06:12:35 <freemangordon_> *way
May 21 06:12:46 <Gear_> the one on the front of the screen
May 21 06:13:15 <Gear_> IR sensor, for the phone to be next to your face, whatever it is
May 21 06:13:17 <freemangordon_> it is either fron camera, ambient light sensor or proximity detector
May 21 06:13:21 <freemangordon_> *front
May 21 06:13:31 <Gear_> yeah one of those things
May 21 06:13:37 <Gear_> it melted a little blister
May 21 06:15:03 <Addison_> Never mind kerio.  I just decided to start all over again.
May 21 06:18:04 <Gear_> has anyone ever heard of this happening?
May 21 06:19:17 <Gear_> I'm nearly going to retire this n900 and use the new one, but I'd like another 6 months at least before doing that
May 21 06:19:54 <Gear_> I don't know how to test what happened. the ambient light sensor works
May 21 06:20:24 <freemangordon> what about proximity?
May 21 06:20:50 <freemangordon> Gear_: ooh, there is another LED, the RGB one :)
May 21 06:21:22 <Gear_> no it's right by teh speaker hole
May 21 06:21:57 <Gear_> proximity sensor works
May 21 06:22:20 <freemangordon> proximity sensor is right to the speaker hole
May 21 06:23:31 <Gear_> shit, actually it's that
May 21 06:23:40 <Gear_> how the hell does that burn out.
May 21 06:24:32 <Gear_> now I'll be pushing buttons with my face
May 21 06:45:50 <Apic> A wonderful splendid Sweetmorn to You all.
May 21 08:15:46 <Gear_> the contacts in my phone are dialling wrong
May 21 08:16:05 <Gear_> the proximity sensor somehow burned a hole in the screen now the contacts are wrong?
May 21 08:16:17 <Gear_> seems like this phone is dead :(
May 21 08:21:32 <rikanee> Gear_: burned a /hole/ in the screen?
May 21 08:21:43 <rikanee> it's adjacent to the screen and relatively low power though
May 21 08:27:50 <Gear_> yes
May 21 08:28:00 <cehteh> show pic
May 21 08:28:10 <Gear_> it' smore like a blister than a hole
May 21 08:28:15 <Gear_> but it's definitely burnt
May 21 08:28:18 <Gear_> from the inside
May 21 08:28:24 <cehteh> you are smoker?
May 21 08:28:28 <Gear_> I don' thave any picture hosting crap
May 21 08:28:35 <Gear_> the prox sensor is broken too
May 21 08:28:36 <cehteh> imgur.com
May 21 08:28:43 <Gear_> I'm telling you it's burned from the inside
May 21 08:28:55 <Gear_> the proximity sensor somehow burned a blister into the plastic above it
May 21 08:29:07 <cehteh> would be odd
May 21 08:29:10 <Gear_> and some of my contacts are dialling the wrong ones
May 21 08:29:17 <Gear_> something is really screwed up
May 21 08:29:25 <cehteh> looks like that
May 21 08:29:30 <Gear_> it's not like I've dropped this or anything recently
May 21 08:29:57 <rikanee> time to add this to "N900 Hardware Defects".
May 21 08:30:25 <rikanee> cooking itself is pretty odd, though.
May 21 08:30:27 <Gear_> any scan I should run?
May 21 08:30:38 <Gear_> I wouldn't have thought it was possible for the prox sensor to do that
May 21 08:30:47 <Gear_> but it is a small IR emitter with an ir reciever
May 21 08:30:50 <rikanee> Gear_, back it up, export contacts to VCF, etc, then reflash it
May 21 08:31:04 <Gear_> I mean for the hardware defect report
May 21 08:31:28 <Gear_> is there anything I can scan the hardware with?
May 21 08:31:31 <rikanee> I don't think it's the IR sensor doing it, it would probably be hot air and a digitizer that had material defects
May 21 08:31:53 <Gear_> no this phone has performed flawlessly for a long time
May 21 08:31:56 <Gear_> since new.
May 21 08:32:02 <Gear_> I've kept it in really good condition
May 21 08:32:08 <rikanee> Gear_: what's the ambient temp in your part of the world?
May 21 08:32:30 <Gear_> about 10 degrees celcius
May 21 08:32:50 <Gear_> probably 6 at night.
May 21 08:33:00 <Gear_> up to 18 in the day at the moment
May 21 08:33:24 <Gear_> its' possible angry birds was on standby for like 10 hours
May 21 08:33:47 <rikanee> yeah, but the N900 gets warm at the back, not towards the screen
May 21 08:34:07 <Gear_> its' definitely the ir emitter for the proximity sensor that has burned the screen from the inside out
May 21 08:34:25 <jaska> some sort of short-circuit?
May 21 08:35:01 <Gear_> how
May 21 08:35:09 <Gear_> it hasn't been wet or dropped or anything
May 21 08:35:21 <Gear_> it's a weird short circuit.
May 21 08:35:32 <Gear_> I have a new one on standby
May 21 08:35:41 <Gear_> I'll export this stuff to that one
May 21 08:35:48 <Gear_> but also I only recently changed to CSSU
May 21 08:35:58 <Gear_> is it possible this could be a bug
May 21 08:36:18 <Gear_> because realistically this is the end of the phone
May 21 08:36:39 <Gear_> wouldn't want other poeple to have theirs spontaneously combust or whatever
May 21 08:36:49 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed a funny idea that proxy sensor IR LED gone apeshit and lazored a blister/bubble into digitizer plastic
May 21 08:37:40 <Gear_> yeah I didn' tknow it could output that much
May 21 08:37:44 <Gear_> but it happened
May 21 08:37:59 <DocScrutinizer05> I dunno if the component *could* (physically) do such thing, at least once
May 21 08:38:27 <Gear_> trust me, it did.
May 21 08:38:45 <Gear_> I know it's that component only from video of the unit
May 21 08:38:52 <Gear_> the tiny flashes it pulsed
May 21 08:39:02 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly, the IR light it emits is supposed to go _thru_ the digitizer plastic, not warm it up
May 21 08:39:24 <Gear_> what if it was upside down
May 21 08:39:38 <Gear_> though I don't think it was
May 21 08:39:40 <Gear_> anyway it happened
May 21 08:39:41 <DocScrutinizer05> if however the component emitted blue magic smoke and became a heating during the process, _that_ could cause such effect
May 21 08:40:32 <DocScrutinizer05> not LED IR but component surface IR radiation, and hot air
May 21 08:40:53 <DocScrutinizer05> in *theory* that could happen
May 21 08:40:58 <Gear_> no PROBABLY not IR so intense that it burns a hole
May 21 08:41:23 <Gear_> but if something malfunctioned, the emitter goes apeshit and burns itself out
May 21 08:41:27 <Gear_> it took the plastic with it
May 21 08:41:34 <Gear_> that's how hot it got
May 21 08:41:39 <Gear_> and this stuff is what
May 21 08:41:41 <Gear_> 2mm thick?
May 21 08:41:44 <ShadowJK> It can't.. also, it goes right through the plastics, because otherwise if the plastic absorbed the IR, the sensor would be useless
May 21 08:41:47 <ShadowJK> so it'd burn hole in your head insgtead
May 21 08:41:49 <DocScrutinizer05> nah
May 21 08:41:50 <ShadowJK> Considering the crazy stuff you're saying, this holr im head theory sounds more plausible to me :D
May 21 08:42:13 <DocScrutinizer05> not 2mm
May 21 08:42:19 <Gear_> 1.5mm
May 21 08:42:22 <Gear_> it's more than 1mm
May 21 08:42:34 <Gear_> anyway, whatever. I don't care about your speculation
May 21 08:42:55 <Gear_> if there is any hardware scan I can run I'll give you the results
May 21 08:43:01 <DocScrutinizer05> and when the component got internal short, it will draw arbitrary power directly from Vcc and component will heat up to several 100°C
May 21 08:43:43 <DocScrutinizer05> it's <<1mm, see earpiece apperture
May 21 08:44:49 <DocScrutinizer05> and that apperture adds the black stuff which is aperture on proximity detector too
May 21 08:45:23 <ShadowJK> pics anyway
May 21 08:45:23 <ShadowJK> Gear_; do you smoke?
May 21 08:45:35 <DocScrutinizer05> if you don't care about my speculation, then please don't spam the channel with yours
May 21 08:45:45 <Gear_> I was talking to shadow
May 21 08:45:47 <Gear_> not you
May 21 08:45:49 <Gear_> you're talking sense
May 21 08:46:50 <cehteh> the truth is prolly that elop equipped the n900's with brain zapping lasers which can be remote controlled :)
May 21 08:46:54 <DocScrutinizer05> Gear_: could you take a mocro snapshot? and publish? I'd be eager to _see_ how it looks
May 21 08:47:06 <DocScrutinizer05> cehteh: LOL
May 21 08:47:13 <DocScrutinizer05> :-P
May 21 08:47:24 <DocScrutinizer05> macro even
May 21 08:47:28 <Gear_> I could
May 21 08:47:35 <Gear_> but I'm not goign to anymore.
May 21 08:47:35 <rikanee> cehteh: "BUY LUMIAS"
May 21 08:48:00 <Gear_> I'm over this shit, later
May 21 08:48:18 <dhbiker> rage quit ?
May 21 08:48:20 <DocScrutinizer05> Gear_: anyway, testing proximity sensor is easy
May 21 08:48:50 <Gear_> "make a call"
May 21 08:49:08 <Gear_> did that, also installed and ran "healthcheck" but that just said the prox sensor was open
May 21 08:50:14 <Gear_> some kind of short, pullup state, and the component burning out with an unknown amount of current is what happened, I'd like to know why
May 21 08:50:33 <cehteh> btw you seen the first google-glass impressions: https://twitter.com/jzellis/status/335460563469627392/photo/1/large
May 21 08:50:53 <dhbiker> lol cehteh 
May 21 08:52:14 <rikanee> cehteh: 10/10 would buy, if it meant all the ads I'd see on the streets would be replaced by ones styled by Google
May 21 08:53:12 <DocScrutinizer05> Gear_: watch cat /sys/devices/platform/gpio-switch/proximity/state
May 21 08:53:19 <DocScrutinizer05> as root
May 21 08:54:19 <cehteh> btw http://i.imgur.com/DzUn2YI.jpg
May 21 08:54:38 <DocScrutinizer05> rikanee: luckily it's not yet a replacing AR-goggles
May 21 08:55:38 <Gear_> some obese dude with a fat chick?
May 21 08:56:39 <cehteh> you dont know that dude?
May 21 08:57:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I haven't seen such awesome goggles yet, not even as prototype. I probably should file a patent for my design of combined selectively dim'able sunglasses plus full view-angle projector. So you could a) dim selectively the spot in your view that the sun comes in and blinds you, and b) even superimpose a warning "sun here, don't look into that direction!"
May 21 08:58:00 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-D
May 21 08:58:32 <rikanee> cehteh: better version: https://www.dropbox.com/s/y9arnte287q7ghw/1363459074016.jpg?v=1mcis
May 21 08:59:18 <DocScrutinizer05> wtf got gnu to do with that now?
May 21 09:01:24 <rikanee> ah whoops, forgot this wasn't an imageboard.
May 21 11:02:40 <vi__> super capacitor to replace mobile phone batteries?  PUH-LEASE.
May 21 11:08:05 <LinuxCode> you are missing the really exciting bit
May 21 11:08:12 <vi__> which is?
May 21 11:08:14 <LinuxCode> a girl made it
May 21 11:08:30 <vi__> From what I can see she hooked a cap upto an LED.
May 21 11:08:31 <LinuxCode> and, she has an interest in nano-tech
May 21 11:08:51 <LinuxCode> http://www.itechpost.com/articles/9488/20130520/new-supercapacitor-developed-18-year-old-charge-cell-phones-20.htm
May 21 11:08:57 <LinuxCode> sounds a bit more involved than that
May 21 11:09:35 <vi__>  So far, however, the new supercapacitor has only been used to power an LED light.
May 21 11:09:40 <vi__> ^ not really.
May 21 11:09:58 <trx> seems to me like a marketing scheme
May 21 11:10:13 <trx> no way in hell she did anything except take a picture :)
May 21 11:10:33 <LinuxCode> Intel seems to think it is worth something
May 21 11:10:47 <vi__> They thought will.i.am is worth something.
May 21 11:10:48 <trx> i am not questioning the technology
May 21 11:10:56 <LinuxCode> I hope she got patents on it
May 21 11:11:07 <vi__> You cant patent a capacitor!
May 21 11:11:09 <LinuxCode> I know there is loads of r&d going on in the battery sector
May 21 11:11:27 <LinuxCode> vi__, you have a very simplistic view
May 21 11:12:06 <vi__> cap+resistor+led==NEW KIND OF MEGA FONE BATTERY THAT WILL LAST FOREVER.
May 21 11:12:15 <trx> :))
May 21 11:12:20 <Gear_> reeks of bullshit
May 21 11:12:57 <Gear_> india pumps out kids with PhD's at 20 years old
May 21 11:13:25 <joga> yeah, surely as qualified as any other PhDs
May 21 11:13:28 <Gear_> US kids are borderline retarded compared to virtually every other developed country
May 21 11:13:31 <LinuxCode> joga, lol
May 21 11:13:35 <vi__> haha
May 21 11:14:19 <Gear_> and some 18 year old girl develops nanotech capacitors in her spare time that holds a charge for 18 years
May 21 11:14:29 <Gear_> "oh US is doing amazingly well too, look at this"
May 21 11:15:01 <Gear_> the whole of the united states scores LOWER in english tests than dutch teenagers in teh equivalent of SATs
May 21 11:15:08 <LinuxCode> Gear_, I don't particularly think our education system is much better either
May 21 11:15:11 <Gear_> and dutch is their second language
May 21 11:15:15 <LinuxCode> meaning UK/OZ/NZ
May 21 11:15:19 <Gear_> much beter than what
May 21 11:15:40 <Gear_> NZ is a dump and anyone educated leaves
May 21 11:15:40 <LinuxCode> compared to many continental European countries
May 21 11:15:57 <Gear_> compared to continental european countries no, they're still pathetic
May 21 11:16:03 <LinuxCode> but then again, I have been through the German education system
May 21 11:16:07 <LinuxCode> I think that is overrated
May 21 11:16:11 <Gear_> nowhere NEAR as bad as the US
May 21 11:16:16 <LinuxCode> hehe
May 21 11:16:43 <Gear_> the dutch education system is good, but highly class based
May 21 11:17:00 <Gear_> they stream you according to aptitude/intelligence
May 21 11:17:08 <LinuxCode> they do that in Germany too
May 21 11:17:14 <Gear_> but still, if you end up a bricklayer, you are BRILLIANT at laying bricks
May 21 11:17:24 <Gear_> but you're never going to rise any higher than that your entire life
May 21 11:17:29 <LinuxCode> 3 tears of school, although now with the new comprehensives, you dont get that as much
May 21 11:17:33 <Gear_> that is your life, FOREVER
May 21 11:17:43 <joga> until they just 3d print our houses heh
May 21 11:17:48 <Gear_> holland had 4 tiers
May 21 11:17:50 <vi__> Yeah, but we will ALWAYS need skilled bricklayers.
May 21 11:18:00 <LinuxCode> but even there they still have a lower aptitude group system
May 21 11:18:05 <Gear_> everywhere will need skilled labourours
May 21 11:18:06 <LinuxCode> vi__, and lawyers
May 21 11:18:11 <LinuxCode> lol
May 21 11:18:44 <vi__> art critics and journalists? Not so much.
May 21 11:18:47 <Gear_> when I was in the netherlands it was 4 tiers
May 21 11:18:58 <Gear_> 3 of technical school and then university
May 21 11:19:22 <LinuxCode> Gear_, ohh I meant
May 21 11:19:27 <Gear_> but that whole place is held together at the seams by engineering
May 21 11:19:28 <LinuxCode> as in Secondary schooling level
May 21 11:19:35 <LinuxCode> they have 3 aptitude levels
May 21 11:19:47 <Gear_> in holland you'll end up in one of 4 tiers
May 21 11:19:49 <LinuxCode> Hauptschule, Realschule, Gymnasium
May 21 11:20:02 <LinuxCode> and now new, comprehensives, which are a mash up 
May 21 11:20:11 <LinuxCode> secondary+tertiary levels combined
May 21 11:20:14 <fizzie> http://bestmag.co.uk/news/052013-492/ is the first article I've seen that actually mentions any details ("Her design incorporated a novel core-shell nanorod electrode with a hydrogemated TiO2 (H-TiO2) core and polyaniline shell. -- Good conductivity of H-TiO2 combined with the high pseudo-capacitance of polyaniline results in significantly higher overall capacitance and energy density --") ...
May 21 11:20:20 <fizzie> ... though even that doesn't bother with actual numbers.
May 21 11:20:35 <Gear_> fizzie
May 21 11:20:50 <vi__> No indication of the actual capacitance?
May 21 11:21:01 <Gear_> there are all sorts of pathetic "ted" speeches showing "amazing US teens" doing all sorts of bullshit
May 21 11:21:02 <dhbiker> why is HAM so sloow :<
May 21 11:21:12 <vi__> ted can go eat a bag of dicks.
May 21 11:21:16 <Gear_> 15 year old builds electric car that's more efficient than cycling!!!
May 21 11:21:31 <vi__> 3 YEAR OLD SHITS THE CURE TO CANCER!
May 21 11:21:41 <LinuxCode> lol
May 21 11:21:41 <vi__> HER DOCTORS HATE HER.
May 21 11:21:44 <Gear_> 16 year old makes a 100 dollar replacement to border security scanning systems!
May 21 11:21:49 <LinuxCode> you are such a bunch of haters
May 21 11:21:51 <LinuxCode> lol
May 21 11:21:51 <Gear_> all these prodigys
May 21 11:22:03 <jaska> hate keeps a man alive.
May 21 11:22:04 <Gear_> no, TED is mostly like watching infomercials
May 21 11:22:09 <LinuxCode> ohh is there a channel for sawfish on freenode ?
May 21 11:22:09 <vi__> jaska: !
May 21 11:22:19 <Gear_> they try to repackage some sort of grille as the new miracle cooking device
May 21 11:22:40 <Gear_> and they try to repackage some pathetic old science project as the next incredible breakthrough by an american teenager
May 21 11:23:08 <vi__> Can some one please tell what the capacity and physical dimensions of this capacitor are?  At the very least give some indication of the energy density per volume?
May 21 11:23:21 <Gear_> no, because it's probably just a drawing
May 21 11:23:25 <LinuxCode> sory sailfish
May 21 11:23:33 <Gear_> the potato powers the LED
May 21 11:23:34 <fizzie> vi__: "203.3 mF/cm^2 (238.5 F/g) compared to the next best alternative supercapacitor in previous research of 80 F/g", says the abstract.
May 21 11:23:35 <LinuxCode> I keep thinking of sawfish
May 21 11:23:41 <vi__> Gear_: Dont be such a hater, it lit an LED.
May 21 11:24:05 <Gear_> the potato was a metaphorical representative of the capacitor
May 21 11:24:24 <fizzie> http://www.usc.edu/CSSF//History/2013/Projects/S0912.pdf <- said abstract.
May 21 11:24:25 <Gear_> the nanotechnology was drawn with coloured pencils
May 21 11:24:33 <vi__> fizzie: Thank you.
May 21 11:24:35 <Gear_> the abstract relies on what
May 21 11:24:55 <Gear_> in depth knowledge of the "nanotech" in question?
May 21 11:25:03 <Gear_> it just reeks of some marketing shit
May 21 11:25:23 <Gear_> the education system there is pumping out retard after retard, there is never any press about anyone excelling at anything
May 21 11:25:42 <Gear_> because they never do.
May 21 11:26:07 <Gear_> they'll be in a recession for another decade
May 21 11:26:28 <fizzie> I would assume the numbers in the abstract came from a thing called "measurements", but I have no idea how much peer review the California state science fair involves, so who knows.
May 21 11:26:51 <Gear_> some mystery capacitor comes from a female highschool student made in her spare time can power iphones for 18 years?
May 21 11:26:58 <Gear_> WOW
May 21 11:27:06 <Gear_> they really are producing geniuses there
May 21 11:27:12 <Gear_> let's all believe it
May 21 11:27:42 <vi__> While the cap may have a high density, how much of that power is usable?
May 21 11:27:45 <Gear_> and change our minds
May 21 11:27:54 <vi__> After all there is spare heat energy in an ice cube.
May 21 11:28:24 <Gear_> compared to something colder than an ice cube
May 21 11:28:40 <vi__> Gear_: Yes.
May 21 11:28:53 <vi__> But it is all in how you say it :)
May 21 11:29:16 <Gear_> so an 18 year old girl (not that realistically gender has any role to play, but in the press a girl looks WAY better)
May 21 11:29:25 <vi__> There is 5000j of heat energy in this ice cube! (above absolute zero).
May 21 11:29:27 <Gear_> produces nanotechnology in her spare time
May 21 11:29:40 <Gear_> and creates a battery that will last longer than any electronic device
May 21 11:29:42 <joga> if she was chinese she would be 11 years old
May 21 11:29:56 <Gear_> probably
May 21 11:30:03 <fizzie> I'd assume the "18 years" figure is something derived from the (extrapolated?) cycle life number given.
May 21 11:30:21 <vi__> In the context of the report, what does the word 'synthesized' mean?
May 21 11:30:31 <Gear_> nothing
May 21 11:30:35 <Gear_> drew with crayons
May 21 11:30:39 <Gear_> printed a picture of
May 21 11:30:52 <vi__> Gear_: you hate harder than me.
May 21 11:31:13 <Gear_> I'm not hating
May 21 11:31:17 <vi__> Gear_: and mrs vi_ says I am a functioning Haterholic.
May 21 11:31:19 <Gear_> it' sjust marketing and lies
May 21 11:31:42 <Gear_> they're constantly lowering passing grades so they can say more kids pass
May 21 11:31:43 <vi__> There is clearly a lot of spin here but there must be some merit to it.
May 21 11:31:52 <joga> if someone already paid $50000 or so for it they probably checked if it had any merit
May 21 11:32:03 <Gear_> MARKETING
May 21 11:32:05 <joga> maybe even asked a physicist or something
May 21 11:32:20 <Gear_> this is hte lady gaga of science
May 21 11:32:23 <fizzie> "The new electrode was fabricated into a flexible solid-state device -- Used lab equipment at [UCSC] under the supervision of Dr. Yat Li"; I suppose you could ask Dr. Li about what it meant.
May 21 11:32:57 <vi__> HERE I HAVE SYTHESIZED A SUPER CAPACITOR WITH A POTATOE AND SYTHESIZED A MOBILE PHONE WITH A LCD CLOCK.
May 21 11:33:16 <Gear_> they need a positive spin on the education system because of how incredibly badly it is failing compared to even the least developed countries
May 21 11:33:22 <vi__> That means the led was connected to the cap.
May 21 11:33:51 <Gear_> why not create the boyband equivalent of a "scientist"
May 21 11:33:54 <Gear_> full scholarship etc
May 21 11:34:04 <Gear_> "under the supervision of dr whoever"
May 21 11:34:33 <Gear_> "um, put this there adn that there, OH LOOK YOU'VE CREATED SOMETHING"
May 21 11:34:34 <jaska> dr kuma
May 21 11:34:50 <Gear_> "WE'RE PRODUCING GENIUSES!"
May 21 11:35:23 <Gear_> why not market the education system as working with some "autotuning" except just in the science field?
May 21 11:35:50 <Gear_> they've been doing it to sell records forever
May 21 11:36:07 <Gear_> sell the idea that child prodigys are coming out of the ghetto in new york
May 21 11:36:13 <joga> I don't mind even if it was just some marketing on top of the supposed achievement
May 21 11:36:23 <Gear_> how can it POSSIBLY not be
May 21 11:36:52 <fizzie> Given that Dr. Li's latest "selected publication" is "Hydrogen-treated TiO2 nanowire arrays for photoelectrochemical water splitting" (esp. compared with the title of this supercap project) and his research interests involve "-- development of novel functional nanomaterials -- rational design and synthesis of functional nanomaterials, especially one-dimensional nanostructures --", you could ...
May 21 11:36:58 <fizzie> ... sort of guesstimate there's been some amount of guidance involved.
May 21 11:37:13 <Gear_> I already guesstimated that
May 21 11:37:23 <vi__> fizzie and there is the punchline.
May 21 11:38:02 <vi__> Perhaps this is a clever plan to get some much needed cash for science research.
May 21 11:38:12 <Gear_> or for the school
May 21 11:38:17 <fizzie> Gear_: I thought your guesstimation was "it's just a drawing".
May 21 11:38:33 <Gear_> read up
May 21 11:38:38 <vi__> Hey kid, pretend you invented my thing and get a bunch of money and shit so we can research it more.
May 21 11:39:14 <joga> I don't really see the problem, so this person may be a normal person after all. does having a proper lab and supervisor turn the to-be-supercap into a disappointment?
May 21 11:40:08 <Gear_> the instant we get phones that last for 18 years I will be proven wrong
May 21 11:40:23 <Gear_> no single person "invents" anything anymore
May 21 11:40:41 <Gear_> especially not a kid out of some ghetto
May 21 11:40:45 <joga> why not?
May 21 11:40:49 <Gear_> it's the boyband of science
May 21 11:41:01 <Gear_> let's use occam's razor on this one
May 21 11:41:30 <Gear_> A: she synthesised nanotechnology in her spare time and it works exactly as marketed
May 21 11:41:43 <joga> does it bother you that it's a she?
May 21 11:41:59 <Gear_> no, in reality it's probably more likely to be a she
May 21 11:42:10 <Gear_> but for the public
May 21 11:42:13 <Gear_> that's HUGE
May 21 11:42:59 <Gear_> look at forensics classes or biology or vetinary sciences or anything else
May 21 11:43:12 <Gear_> the bulk are chicks
May 21 11:43:51 <Gear_> mech engineering or electronics engineering you get far less
May 21 11:44:35 <vi__> On the positive side, this is a motivated young student who has been given a scholarship who will probably make the most of it.
May 21 11:44:44 <Gear_> or else
May 21 11:44:58 <vi__> At 19 I was hitchhiking and getting high.
May 21 11:45:23 <Gear_> she has to make the most of it
May 21 11:45:32 <vi__> No she does not.
May 21 11:45:38 <Gear_> it's in the spotlight now
May 21 11:45:39 <vi__> But she probably will.
May 21 11:45:41 <vi__> So.
May 21 11:45:43 <Gear_> she has corporate backing
May 21 11:45:48 <Gear_> it's probably in her contract
May 21 11:45:50 <joga> there have been many spotlights, never heard of again
May 21 11:45:55 <vi__> You think they will shoot her if she does not?
May 21 11:46:11 <Gear_> I bet she'll be penalised
May 21 11:46:17 <joga> eh :)
May 21 11:46:51 <joga> there's a bit of a pessimistic tone here heh
May 21 11:47:24 <Gear_> they're not gonna black bag her, but if she's signed a contract with someone, there'll be repercussions, the aptitude test for this one was probably drug use and all kinds of other psychological profiling
May 21 11:48:19 <Gear_> the cia select people straight out of highschool, why not start marketing nanotech and other bullshit with a similar selection process?
May 21 11:48:31 <vi__> Gear_: are you USA?
May 21 11:48:55 <Gear_> if I wasn't?
May 21 11:49:31 <vi__> was 9/11 a hologram?
May 21 11:49:53 <Gear_> no, elvis flew the plane
May 21 11:49:57 <LinuxCode> lol
May 21 11:50:02 * LinuxCode shakes head
May 21 11:50:32 <Gear_> it's right there in the bible
May 21 11:50:37 <vi__> You are aware Vietnam was a false flag operation orchestrated to implicate the French as partially responsible for faking the moon landings?
May 21 11:50:49 <vi__> also, lizard people.
May 21 11:51:01 <Gear_> vietnam isn't officially a "war"
May 21 11:51:36 <vi__> wait, are we talking about Vietnam 1 or 2
May 21 11:51:39 <vi__> ?
May 21 11:51:49 <Gear_> rocky 5
May 21 11:51:58 <Gear_> time for sleep
May 21 11:55:10 <Macer> wow.. i found my first original n900 bag
May 21 11:55:18 <Apic> Cool.
May 21 11:55:19 <Macer> the other 2 never had the bags
May 21 11:55:23 <Macer> what's up with that? :)
May 21 11:55:23 <Gear_> bag?
May 21 11:55:31 <Macer> yeah... early models from nokia had a bag
May 21 11:55:37 <Gear_> what's up with my proximity sensor going supernova
May 21 11:55:53 <Gear_> macer was it the one with the magnetic closing thing
May 21 11:55:58 <Macer> no
May 21 11:56:08 <Macer> looks like a ancient coin bag heh
May 21 11:56:20 <Macer> with teh string you pull to close it... like a crown royal bag :)
May 21 11:56:25 <Gear_> I have the boxes
May 21 11:56:32 <Gear_> in mint condition
May 21 11:56:41 <Gear_> maybe I could sell them to a hong kong distributor
May 21 11:56:45 <Gear_> of the fake ones
May 21 11:56:48 <Macer> i didn't care much for the boxes.. especially after n900 #2 broke heh
May 21 11:56:59 <Macer> lol
May 21 11:57:22 <Macer> i always wondered if my N900s were fake. no idea how to tell tho tbh. maybe hk does just that good of a job of replicating
May 21 11:57:33 <Gear_> you'd know
May 21 11:57:39 <Macer> then again.. it isn't like nokia made them very sturdy anyways.. with usb ports that fall off
May 21 11:57:48 <Macer> and modems that stop working randomly
May 21 11:57:56 <Macer> what a shame. the os is so awesome heh
May 21 11:58:20 <Gear_> my usb port has been fine
May 21 11:58:38 <Gear_> actually my first n900 has only just started to malfunction
May 21 11:58:57 <Gear_> the reserve one is probably going to have to become active
May 21 12:03:31 <Macer> heh
May 21 12:03:38 <Macer> my 1st one had the usb port fall off
May 21 12:03:44 <Macer> 2nd one had the modem just stop working
May 21 12:03:49 <Macer> known issues for both
May 21 12:04:05 <Macer> nokia literally told me to shove paper into the battery compartment
May 21 12:04:12 <Macer> AWESOME QA lol
May 21 12:16:54 <rikanee> Macer: it's rumored that N900s were wave-soldered under the sun in winter ;)
May 21 12:17:57 <DocScrutinizer05> N900 100% clones can't be done - BB5 chip not available
May 21 12:19:06 <DocScrutinizer05> so anything that runs maemo5 *is* a genuine Nokia N900
May 21 12:20:11 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: albeit it may have a fake housing, B-grade screen, and shoddy assembly.
May 21 12:20:36 <DocScrutinizer05> yes. The so called refurbished ones
May 21 12:21:39 <DocScrutinizer05> Macer: who's "Nokia" in your "Nokia told me..."
May 21 12:21:46 <rikanee> honestly, if chinese factories started actually pumping out RX-51 /board/ clones, with real OMAPs and Maemo 5 on them, I'd contact them immediately.
May 21 12:22:50 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, sure
May 21 12:23:07 <DocScrutinizer05> but, as said above, BB5 cmt chip not available
May 21 12:23:13 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik
May 21 12:24:04 <DocScrutinizer05> NB it also needs proper filesystem (the "mass storage" flash content inside modem, which holds data like IMEI, calibration, etc)
May 21 12:24:31 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: well, unless they're also into recycling other Nokia phones, at which point they might try pulling BB5s off them (this would be co$$$tly though…)
May 21 12:24:44 <DocScrutinizer05> you probably could flash that, if you have the needed software and prommer hw
May 21 12:27:01 <DocScrutinizer05> the term "filesystem" for the config storage in cmt chips is rather ridiculous, it's rather something similar to CAL, with block addr hardcoded to firmware
May 21 12:27:35 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: the GSM radio calibration data is stored in BB5?
May 21 12:27:45 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
May 21 12:27:49 <rikanee> hmm, the more you know, I guess.
May 21 12:28:39 <DocScrutinizer05> there's a friggin lot of calibration to be done to GSM/UMTS radio
May 21 12:29:38 <DocScrutinizer05> and none of the "I want a free and open GSM radio stack!!1!!" fools has the slightest idea of any of that calibration
May 21 12:29:55 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: Nokia has a service tool that does it semi-automagically though, and it seems that it's not all that hard to acquire on the grey market.
May 21 12:30:10 <DocScrutinizer05> does what?
May 21 12:30:17 <rikanee> Radio calibration.
May 21 12:30:29 <DocScrutinizer05> calibration? you'll need a R&S CMU200 for that at very least
May 21 12:30:55 <DocScrutinizer05> good luck in finding a used one that can do UMTS calib, for <100k bucks
May 21 12:31:20 <DocScrutinizer05> (SIC!) USD even
May 21 12:31:47 <rikanee> wasn't there mention of a radio jig in the service manual?
May 21 12:32:17 <DocScrutinizer05> possible
May 21 12:33:31 <DocScrutinizer05> you need a well defined and calibrated contraption to attach CMU200 to the DUT, for RF calibration
May 21 12:42:27 <DocScrutinizer05> obviously quadcore
May 21 12:42:36 <DocScrutinizer05> oops ECHAN
May 21 12:43:48 <Macer> DocScrutinizer05: nokia tech support
May 21 12:44:09 <Macer> when they said they wouldn't honor my warranty in the US because the device was from GB
May 21 12:44:11 <DocScrutinizer05> poor fools citing a database
May 21 12:44:11 <Macer> go figure
May 21 12:44:25 <Macer> i couldn't even see that being in the database
May 21 12:44:40 <Macer> they probably got that from a forum
May 21 12:44:53 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, and added it to their db
May 21 12:46:02 <DocScrutinizer05> similarly to the "reset your router to factory settings, pull the power plug for 1 minute" advice you get from your ISP when you complain about poor datarates on DSL
May 21 12:46:35 <DocScrutinizer05> you don't even think about arguing with them about S/N-ratio etc
May 21 12:48:00 <DocScrutinizer05> they will ask you the always same 6 initial questions and if you don't confirm you did that, you won't get any useful answer to your actual problem (not that you usually ever get such useful answer anyway, from 1st level helpdesk)
May 21 12:51:36 <DocScrutinizer05> once you passed this initial dummy test and the flowchart in the service drone's screen (which is same as in your user manual under "faq") shows up "call service hotline", they come up with that collected nonsense that 2nd level helpdesk or back-office digged up in foum and other google search, as well as some tips that actually originated in the R&D or tech service department. Papaer probably isn't one of the latter category
May 21 12:54:50 <joga> fortunately my isp will happily adjust line levels if I ask them to and can also do it over irc
May 21 12:58:14 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: hehe, DSL. A local telco here is sick of repeatedly replacing copper and fixing exposed lines, so now they're migrating users slowly to fiber.
May 21 12:59:00 <rikanee> poor people love stealing phone lines - they're not HV, easy to identify, and usually bundled pretty thick.
May 21 13:00:04 <DocScrutinizer05> omg
May 21 13:00:31 <DocScrutinizer05> here those cables are dug deep in the ground, so stealing them isn't exactly simple
May 21 13:01:07 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: well, city planning here isn't exactly stellar, so it's overhead spaghetti land for us.
May 21 13:01:12 <DocScrutinizer05> what they steal here are railway power cables (particularly the GND cabling from rail to power station)
May 21 13:02:31 <DocScrutinizer05> and that's getting increasingly annoying, since these idiots stop all railway traffic on that line for several hours or longer, and only every second idiot fries himself during that action
May 21 13:03:15 <rikanee> wow, that blows.
May 21 13:03:47 <rikanee> the railways here are fenced off and the power line endpoints are buried, so they don't even try.
May 21 13:03:49 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm just waiting for them to steal the rails instead of the cables
May 21 13:05:51 <rikanee> when phone lines are stolen (they usually beat up the DSLAM or exchange), you can expect zero service for at least 3 days while they string up the wires, again.
May 21 13:06:22 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm sad I sound like a nationalist or racist when I have to state that this shit started with end of soviet union and opening of frontiers to the easern european countries
May 21 13:06:56 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't help, it's the truth
May 21 13:07:40 <rikanee> as a result, their fancy new fiber backbone is completely buried, with amplifier points in electric-fenced buildings, conveniently also placed near new LTE cell towers
May 21 13:09:06 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: hey, when immigration is lax and social services are plentiful, you can't really expect much.
May 21 13:09:36 <DocScrutinizer05> in the syria refugee camps in turkey etc the watertanks get stolen!!
May 21 13:10:14 <rikanee> Wow.
May 21 13:10:39 <DocScrutinizer05> I mean... what a unique class of asshole you have to be to steal the water tanks in a camp?
May 21 13:13:43 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05, weren't there tales of ex-USSR immigrants cooking with firewood in a flat?
May 21 13:14:06 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
May 21 13:14:30 <DocScrutinizer05> there are also tales of vietnamese or koreans cooking with C4
May 21 13:14:40 <DocScrutinizer05> which seems to burn quite nice
May 21 13:17:23 <DocScrutinizer05> no matter what's the idiocy you could think of, you can bet on finding it being done somewhere by some idiot
May 21 13:18:39 <DocScrutinizer05> WTF?? http://jolla.com/
May 21 13:18:57 <DocScrutinizer05> gives me a really nonsensical rather empty page
May 21 13:19:15 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly again "optimized for MSIE"
May 21 13:19:38 <rikanee> DocScrutinizer05: their CDN probably doesn't like you at this time - loads fine here.
May 21 13:20:03 <rikanee> the images load dynamically though, so if you have JS disabled, you may need to enable it
May 21 13:20:24 <DocScrutinizer05> nah, the page has an ugly (not even9 photoshopped *side* view of a device
May 21 13:20:41 <DocScrutinizer05> idiots
May 21 13:20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> who got JS enabled?
May 21 13:22:04 <cehteh> DocScrutinizer05: yeah, when you enable JS ist a kindof nice idea, but having no fallback is FAIL
May 21 13:22:34 <jaska> yeah its pretty blank apart from a black top bar
May 21 13:23:00 <DocScrutinizer05> not even enabling JS, Java, and plugins, makes that page do anything meaningful on reloading. Neither does opening it in FF
May 21 13:23:23 <cehteh> with JS it works for me in ff
May 21 13:23:39 <jaska> enabling js works for me, and starts the cpu fan on the laptop :)
May 21 13:23:55 <cehteh> huh .. wtf cpu ... here not :)
May 21 13:24:16 <cehteh> flash loaden pages do that
May 21 13:24:39 <DocScrutinizer05> FF _has_ JS enabled
May 21 13:24:50 <cehteh> you scrolled down?
May 21 13:25:05 <DocScrutinizer05> OHHFUCK!!!
May 21 13:25:12 <cehteh> lmao :)
May 21 13:25:15 <DocScrutinizer05> failwhale
May 21 13:25:24 <cehteh> avantgarde web page design :)
May 21 13:26:04 <cehteh> progressive :)
May 21 13:26:59 <cehteh> as i saied, i kinda like the style, gives some surprise *but* having no fallback is FAIL .. and discoverability, hey you need to pass the entry exam :)
May 21 13:27:22 <cehteh> anyways the device look ok, but no more
May 21 13:27:42 <cehteh> from the very sparse things we know so far
May 21 13:27:50 <DocScrutinizer05> so WTF are they telling me (except "we are 7331 web programmers who invented another fuckedup way to garble webpages")? Do they actually take off on a colored swappable back cover for case??? OMG!
May 21 13:28:08 <rikanee> cehteh: for a EUR400 off-contract device, it's okay, but not mind-blowing.
May 21 13:28:24 <cehteh> my hopes for sailfisch on a note2 like device have not come true,but well, that was a wet dream
May 21 13:29:07 <cehteh> DocScrutinizer05: yeah ignore that backcover thing .. wtf :P
May 21 13:30:00 <cehteh> but still reasonable ok device, price ok, sailfish will likely perform well on it (i hope for more specs .. 1GB ram? what display res? what battery?)
May 21 13:30:08 <rikanee> man, the Jolla would've been more exciting if they had a bezel-less screen to highlight the fact that it's all swi-- sweep, and no HW buttons.
May 21 13:30:19 <rikanee> * except for power and volume, of course.
May 21 13:30:46 <cehteh> my n900 still works, unless it dies i will not become a early adopter this time
May 21 13:30:48 <rikanee> cehteh: IIRC they've released no HW specs aside from what's on http://join.jolla.com
May 21 13:31:05 <DocScrutinizer05> WHERE IS THE HW KBD, JOLLA??
May 21 13:31:26 <cehteh> DocScrutinizer05: bluetooth kb from amazon :P
May 21 13:31:43 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm about as amazed of this jolla device as I was about the lumia
May 21 13:31:48 <cehteh> i made my mind .. hardware keyboards are out, i'd go for a BT one
May 21 13:32:26 <cehteh> its definately *not* the most amazing feature stuffed geek compliant gross hardware
May 21 13:32:38 <cehteh> its just mainstream and ok .. take that
May 21 13:33:27 <rikanee> cehteh: I'm holding my breath for what kind of expansion bus the Other Half is, exactly
May 21 13:33:34 <DocScrutinizer05> I rather get a android device with really nice specs, and root it, then
May 21 13:33:38 <SpeedEvil> it's unclear
May 21 13:33:39 <cehteh> but hey bigger heavier expensiver .. would prolly not as good for 80% of their customers
May 21 13:33:54 <SpeedEvil> the other halves pictured are thin plastic shells with NFC
May 21 13:34:18 <cehteh> DocScrutinizer05: i really cant stand android, buyed that note2 for my wife, nice hardware, but android, bullshit
May 21 13:34:20 <rikanee> right now it smells, and looks like NFC (there is what seems to be a tag on the cover), but if they have fancy things like i2c or whatnot, then the Jolla would be real exciting.
May 21 13:34:23 <SpeedEvil> so, at the very worst there is a nice clip to attach a BT keybvoatd to
May 21 13:34:44 <cehteh> its not that intuitive to use .. and then all the crap, spam, nag, adware
May 21 13:34:53 <SpeedEvil> ideally, there would be bidirectional power and USB, and API/i2c
May 21 13:35:08 <SpeedEvil> spi
May 21 13:35:30 <cehteh> clip on keyboard over nfc would do as well
May 21 13:35:30 <SpeedEvil> even just bidirectional USB and power would be food
May 21 13:35:33 <SpeedEvil> good
May 21 13:35:42 <SpeedEvil> cehteh: or magnetometer even
May 21 13:35:52 <teotwaki> I'm looking for a project name for an email server.
May 21 13:35:53 <teotwaki> Ideas?
May 21 13:36:04 <cehteh> lameduck?
May 21 13:36:12 <SpeedEvil> serverus
May 21 13:36:45 <teotwaki> that's actually pretty nifty
May 21 13:37:08 <cehteh> whats an email server? SMTP, IMAP? 
May 21 13:37:17 <DocScrutinizer05> cya
May 21 13:37:30 <teotwaki> cehteh: email distribution server.
May 21 13:37:43 <cehteh> so smtp?
May 21 13:37:44 <teotwaki> cehteh: provides advanced programming abilities for email routing.
May 21 13:37:56 <cehteh> you mean like .. 
May 21 13:38:00 <cehteh> sendmail? :)
May 21 13:38:07 <teotwaki> No, not at all like sendmail.
May 21 13:38:09 <cehteh> m4 ftw :P
May 21 13:38:16 <rikanee> oh, regarding the SoC of the device, I'm guessing it's a 50/50 split either between Qualcomm and ST-Ericsson.
May 21 13:38:27 <cehteh> jk
May 21 13:38:51 <cehteh> bit anyways existing email servers can do that .. exim, postfix 
May 21 13:38:55 * SpeedEvil wrote a sendmail.cf once by hand. He has never fully recovered.
May 21 13:39:22 <cehteh> sendmail can do that even more, but people fail the configuration step
May 21 13:39:50 <cehteh> SpeedEvil: back in times people did that w/o the m4 frontend
May 21 13:40:00 <cehteh> thats pretty hardcore
May 21 13:40:12 <SpeedEvil> yes, without m4
May 21 13:40:21 <teotwaki> cehteh: I don't believe there's any FS that enables to do what we need. I've been studying the subject since Septembre, FYI.
May 21 13:40:39 <cehteh> ok have fun
May 21 13:40:47 <vi__> what about 1112112?
May 21 13:41:00 <vi__> also, what is that jolla thing?
May 21 13:41:16 <vi__> Is there an actual data bus going to the back?
May 21 13:41:26 <cehteh> i am happy with the postfix/dovecot combo
May 21 13:41:42 <SpeedEvil> vi__: not reveled
May 21 13:41:50 <SpeedEvil> revealed
May 21 13:42:03 <SpeedEvil> vi__: hints have been yes
May 21 13:42:09 <cehteh> at worst only some contacts or notches :)
May 21 13:42:20 <SpeedEvil> at worst just the notches
May 21 13:42:26 <SpeedEvil> hopefully
May 21 13:42:26 <SpeedEvil> l
May 21 13:42:38 <SpeedEvil> at least USB both ways and power
May 21 13:43:02 <SpeedEvil> in some ways I'm more interested in software stack than hw
May 21 13:43:06 <vi__> Because I had a colour changing front on my Ericsson 628 12 years ago. 
May 21 13:44:05 <rikanee> vi__: we can only hope the Other Half amounts to more than Xpress-On covers.
May 21 13:44:18 <vi__> polyphonic ringtones?
May 21 13:44:21 <cehteh> the swipe UI is at least something outstanding, and i think its really intuitive and useable, but for the truth, time will tell
May 21 13:44:49 <vi__> snake 3d?
May 21 13:46:23 <DocScrutinizer05> 100EUR preorder credit for a  “The Other Half” mystery thing?? WTF Jolla
May 21 13:46:46 <rikanee> vi__, I was thinking more along the lines of a polyphonic ringtone /editor/
May 21 13:46:49 <DocScrutinizer05> for all I can tell  “The Other Half” could be a registration to their website as well
May 21 13:49:13 <DocScrutinizer05> and I honestly fail to see how I'm going to dial a number or a contact (even one out of 8 speeddial contacts, as on old simple Nokia featurephones) on that jolla device "without even looking at it"
May 21 13:50:08 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd be surprised if at least REdial would be possible without looking at the screen to press the right button
May 21 13:50:23 <vi__> DocScrutinizer05: Have you not heard? Buttons are for old men!
May 21 13:50:43 <DocScrutinizer05> old and proud of it. I'm older than you ever will get
May 21 13:50:50 <vi__> rofl
May 21 13:51:08 <vi__> Every year I catch up, you get another year on me.
May 21 13:51:39 <vi__> But we must face facts.  Buttons are an artefact of the past.
May 21 13:51:47 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
May 21 13:51:51 <DocScrutinizer05> obviously
May 21 13:52:14 <DocScrutinizer05> but they abandoned buttons prematurely, without any proper alternative in the bottom drawer
May 21 13:52:27 <vi__> Despite the fact tactile controls allow one to use a device without vision.
May 21 13:52:44 <vi__> i.e. changing the volume of your music player while it is in your pocket.
May 21 13:53:06 <DocScrutinizer05> that would be true for really advanced texture or shape changing surfaces
May 21 13:53:38 <rikanee> vi__, don't worry, in time both volume and power buttons will be obsolete, and devices will always and forever be on (*)
May 21 13:53:48 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, misinterpreted what you said
May 21 13:54:42 <DocScrutinizer05> volume buttons get useless as youth gets deaf with their 20th birthday the latest
May 21 13:54:55 <DocScrutinizer05> which conveniently solves the phonecall problem as well
May 21 13:55:01 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
May 21 13:55:36 <DocScrutinizer05> ringtones getting replaced by vibrator patterns and electroshocks
May 21 13:55:55 <DocScrutinizer05> nobody doing phonecalls in times of twitter
May 21 13:56:08 * DocScrutinizer05 goes searching for a rope
May 21 13:56:26 <SpeedEvil> I for see buttons coming back when someone works out how to do the live extrudable buttons
May 21 13:56:48 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah. see above
May 21 13:57:07 <SpeedEvil> ah
May 21 13:57:16 <rikanee> I really doubt the longevity of what is essentially bubble wrap on a screen.
May 21 13:58:12 <DocScrutinizer05> nano can do wonders
May 21 13:58:24 <SpeedEvil> rikanee: quite
May 21 13:58:56 <DocScrutinizer05> piezo plastic transparent film, whatever
May 21 15:12:52 <norayr> hey, I have installed community ssu for my friend on his n900, but we cannot see the rotation applet and enable autorotation
May 21 15:13:00 <norayr> it's stable, may it be that's the reason?
May 21 15:13:19 <norayr> before I have installed SSU on my n900 and it seemd to work
May 21 15:13:23 <norayr> just after installation
May 21 15:13:39 <norayr> but I guess I have installed testing version on my n900
May 21 15:20:28 <Sc0rpius> yeah I think if it's stable the applet is a different package
May 21 15:20:35 <Sc0rpius> but you can still install it
May 21 15:21:25 <Sc0rpius> status-area-orientationlock-applet
May 21 15:21:27 <Sc0rpius> that's its name
May 21 15:21:35 <norayr> thank you
May 21 15:21:40 <Sc0rpius> you're welcome
May 21 15:50:26 * DocScrutinizer05 sighs and envisions the pretty instructive text on cssu wiki frontpage
May 21 15:50:40 <DocScrutinizer05> ~cssu
May 21 15:50:41 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU
May 21 15:51:07 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Note that both videos show installation (and features) of CSSU-T - for (on first glance missing) features of CSSU-S see http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU#Features<<
May 21 15:51:57 <divVerent> BTW, I noticed that after installing cssu-t...
May 21 15:52:01 <divVerent> cssu's repo is still active
May 21 15:52:18 <divVerent> so apparently, if CSSU upgrades before CSSU-T, it'll pull CSSU's version then at first
May 21 15:52:20 <DocScrutinizer05> >>You find there how to use new features such as Thomas Perl's hildon-desktop improvements and the status of applications in Portrait Mode with forcerotation.<<
May 21 15:52:25 <divVerent> will it later replace by a thumb version again?
May 21 15:52:45 <divVerent> or should I better manually disable the CSSU repo?
May 21 15:53:06 <DocScrutinizer05> err what now? cssu-t or thumb?
May 21 15:53:15 <divVerent> cssu-t is not thumb?
May 21 15:53:21 <DocScrutinizer05> not at all
May 21 15:53:22 <divVerent> oh, testing
May 21 15:53:26 <divVerent> both start with t ;)
May 21 15:53:41 <divVerent> but anyway... I am on cssu-thumb, and noticed that cssu's repo is still active
May 21 15:53:46 <divVerent> so I wonder if that is right or not
May 21 15:53:53 <freemangordon> divVerent: it is
May 21 15:54:02 <divVerent> good then
May 21 15:54:03 <freemangordon> you need cssu-t repo enabled
May 21 15:54:13 <freemangordon> along with cssu-thumb repo
May 21 15:54:16 <divVerent> okay
May 21 15:54:17 <DocScrutinizer05> well, ask freemangordon, I never really wrapped my head around that particular problem of cssu-thunmb maintenance
May 21 15:54:18 <divVerent> then all is right
May 21 15:54:28 <divVerent> so if cssu-t upgrades a package and thumb lags behind
May 21 15:54:36 <divVerent> I'd just get for the time being the non-thumb version?
May 21 15:54:45 <divVerent> and it'll later upgrade to the thumb version when it is ready?
May 21 15:54:53 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
May 21 15:54:55 <DocScrutinizer05> aiui
May 21 15:55:22 <divVerent> BTW, I recently got the case of packages being offered for upgrade by apt that HAM does not...
May 21 15:55:26 <divVerent> stuff like oss-wifi
May 21 15:55:37 <divVerent> I then upgraded them all one by one, except for libhildon1... that one I did not dare to ;)
May 21 15:56:16 <divVerent> but now I know why that's the case, so all is good
May 21 15:56:49 <divVerent> I especially updated the CA certificates thing... that one sounded most important to upgrade ASAP
May 21 15:56:54 <freemangordon> divVerent: did you enable cssu-devel by chance?
May 21 15:57:04 <divVerent> not intentionally
May 21 15:57:15 <divVerent> but let me check
May 21 15:57:57 <divVerent> community-devel is in HAM's config, but disabled
May 21 15:58:11 <divVerent> it has this nice <disabled/> tag
May 21 15:59:40 <DocScrutinizer05> *sigh*  seems Falk is torturing our db with that 13GB repligard table import ;-P
May 21 16:00:51 <DocScrutinizer05> nice load-test on whole maemo infra XD
May 21 16:01:10 <DocScrutinizer05> still not a ingle ALARM mail
May 21 16:01:16 <DocScrutinizer05> single even
May 21 16:01:44 <divVerent> that's what DB servers are for
May 21 16:01:47 <divVerent> 13GB is nothing
May 21 16:01:52 <DocScrutinizer05> but I'm really wondering what made tmo VM load hit the roof
May 21 16:01:54 <divVerent> even MySQL can handle that ;)
May 21 16:03:09 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly since for all I know tmo VM runs its own private mysqld
May 21 16:04:29 * DocScrutinizer05 ponders to throw another 2 CPUs into db VM
May 21 16:08:53 <DocScrutinizer05> meh, won't help on 99.5%wa
May 21 16:09:21 <DocScrutinizer05> which also explains why other VMs go up in load
May 21 16:09:40 <DocScrutinizer05> they share the same strorage after all
May 21 18:30:39 <ShadowJK> the little I've run webservers, which is almost 0, usually the defaults for mysql/apache and so on assumes the machine has infinite ram
May 21 18:35:24 <Drathir> mysql depends of data trafic but can have high resource usage...
May 21 18:50:28 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL æ jolla CEO: >>The phone will be a smart phone for mass market. It will not be a tech phone intended for Linux hackers. Consumers are not able to hack kernel or flash new software for the device.
May 21 18:50:29 <DocScrutinizer05> - We are however planning on creating a development version of the phone for open source community, those interested in Linux and open systems and for partners.<<
May 21 18:51:05 <DocScrutinizer05> suuuuure
May 21 18:51:10 <DocScrutinizer05> like N950?
May 21 18:51:15 <divVerent> in other words, the device you actually CAN get will be locked down to death?
May 21 18:51:26 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, obviously
May 21 18:51:29 <divVerent> well, I'd even bet that someone here in the channel will "jailbreak" the non-development version
May 21 18:51:42 <divVerent> and put Maemo on it, haha
May 21 18:51:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd not bet on any of that
May 21 18:52:07 <divVerent> that is, assuming it will get any sales at all ;)
May 21 18:52:16 <divVerent> and not be as successless as a CERTAIN OTHER PHONE OS
May 21 18:52:32 <divVerent> Windows Phone devices will be actually bought the very day one can install Android on them
May 21 18:52:34 <DocScrutinizer05> tivoization is thoroughtly understood and tested, and so far no way to "jailbreak" even N9 has been found
May 21 18:52:46 <divVerent> then why does Apple fail every single time?
May 21 18:53:06 <divVerent> it's just a matter of how much energy is put into it
May 21 18:53:07 <Aoyagi> wait wait
May 21 18:53:16 <Aoyagi> You're talking about WP here, let me join.
May 21 18:53:22 <divVerent> yes, in the iPhone 4S and up they finally got the boot loader right...
May 21 18:53:33 <divVerent> but every single OS release had again a root exploit
May 21 18:53:53 <divVerent> I highly doubt Nokia is better there, or Jolla
May 21 18:54:04 <DocScrutinizer05> divVerent: nonsense, a proper crypo-signed locked bootloader isn't breakable, no matter how much 'energy' you invest in it
May 21 18:54:05 <divVerent> I mean... you even can use a Linux kernel exploit of the stone age kernel these devices tend to get shipped with
May 21 18:54:18 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: except that you can start working AFTER the boot loader
May 21 18:54:23 <divVerent> like the iPhone 4S and higher jailbreaks do
May 21 18:54:35 <DocScrutinizer05> so what?
May 21 18:54:39 <divVerent> the weakest link is what matters
May 21 18:54:43 <divVerent> it doesn't HAVE to be the boot loader
May 21 18:54:46 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not interested in a crippled hardware
May 21 18:54:53 <divVerent> nobody is... hopefully
May 21 18:55:22 <DocScrutinizer05> see N9 and locked CAL in openmode, there you got your "jailbreaked" hw platform
May 21 18:55:31 <Aoyagi> You know, if you could install Maemo/Meego to Lumia 920 and actually control it... well, that would be awesome. (and I hate that word)
May 21 18:56:56 <thedead1440> DocScrutinizer05: where did you get that quote?
May 21 18:57:15 <DocScrutinizer05> to have root access doesn't mean you control the complete hw, on a system that has shit like aegis on it / in it
May 21 18:57:28 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.ossimantylahti.com/2012/07/interview-of-jussi-hurmola-jolla-mobiles-managing-director/#
May 21 18:58:14 <thedead1440> That interview is 10 months old; things have dramatically changed after that from what they have been saying
May 21 18:58:28 <DocScrutinizer05> oooh, indeed
May 21 18:58:45 <DocScrutinizer05> got fooled by somebody posting that link on a ML today
May 21 18:59:05 <thedead1440> i remember reading on IRC some quotes about how they didn't expect the backlash etc hence they decided to refocus their priorities and goals
May 21 18:59:22 <DocScrutinizer05> hahaha
May 21 19:00:01 <thedead1440> that is why their SDK was delayed too so that they didn't have as many closed bobs as they initially thought was ok or whatever... can't remember their exact quotes though
May 21 19:00:29 <DocScrutinizer05> I buy it nevertheless
May 21 19:00:36 <DocScrutinizer05> (your story)
May 21 19:01:50 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm still afraid they have a culture of thinking "commercial == closed"
May 21 19:01:55 <thedead1440> the proof is in the pudding; like teotwaki said yesterday they have been upgraded from vapourware to droplet(mist)ware with the unveiling of the device. When the balance is unveiled we'll know for sure what they actually are doing
May 21 19:03:00 <thedead1440> an interview yesterday with Marc mentioned that they won't be opening up code till they ship their device mainly because they are afraid of someone using their code and pre-empting them
May 21 19:03:26 <DocScrutinizer05> this whole aegis shit been the wrong idea (tivoization, just done right), and it seems those Nokians who moved to jolla are still loving the idea
May 21 19:03:48 <thedead1440> hence why limited specs info was revealed so that they are not held to ransom for components
May 21 19:04:37 <DocScrutinizer05> well, maemo even *started* better than that, afaik
May 21 19:04:58 <thedead1440> re aegis; they have expressly answered "No DRM" when asked directly about aegis. I think if they do implement something similar it might be a watered-down version or something new but with the same locked-down issues
May 21 19:06:15 <DocScrutinizer05> it's still the concept to rape open source, steal all you need and cook it in sulfuric acid in your secret labs in the souterrain, then eventually throw a "product" over the wall. That's not a community driven OS
May 21 19:06:51 <DocScrutinizer05> thedead1440: Nokia *always* said that aegis was NOT about DRM
May 21 19:07:26 <thedead1440> i'm not well-versed with reading code from git but a number of people on TMO have said that nemo seems to be getting substantial contributions from Jolla
May 21 19:07:44 <thedead1440> code contributions*
May 21 19:08:48 <DocScrutinizer05> well, in my book nemo == jolla, for any relevant metrics
May 21 19:09:54 <Aoyagi> I hear Jolla heavily based on Android...
May 21 19:10:17 <thedead1440> then that code is public; from what i understand the middleware of sailfish is the same as mer/nemo with jolla contributing their changes back. sailfish's ux and the bells+whistles have not yet been contributed back due to their fears
May 21 19:10:58 <DocScrutinizer05> as enthusiastic I've been about the N900 when it got announced, after already being in love with N810, as sceptical I've been for N9 and that never changed, and that jolla stuff doesn't change it either
May 21 19:11:00 <thedead1440> Aoyagi: nope; its linux based with android apps being available too
May 21 19:11:31 <divVerent> one thing I wonder BTW
May 21 19:11:41 <divVerent> if it is so easy to lock down an OS... why has Apple failed every single time?
May 21 19:11:57 <divVerent> I mean, the jailbreakers always have to replace the kernel by a custom one (or add a kernel extension)
May 21 19:12:07 <DocScrutinizer05> Aoyagi: they have a dalvik emulator or sth
May 21 19:12:10 <divVerent> in order to get rid of the signature verification
May 21 19:12:30 <divVerent> so why doesn't Apple "simply" prevent loading of not signed kernels/kernel extensions?
May 21 19:12:58 <DocScrutinizer05> nfc, I never looked into apple
May 21 19:13:23 <divVerent> there can be two reasons: 1. Apple does, but there's always a buffer overrun somewhere, or 2. Apple for some reason doesn't even try
May 21 19:13:25 <DocScrutinizer05> aiui they just rely on classical unix permissions and missing root account
May 21 19:13:33 <divVerent> I had an iPhone, they do more
May 21 19:13:39 <divVerent> the kernel verifies executable integrity
May 21 19:13:51 <divVerent> so you can run non-signed scripts but not binaries
May 21 19:14:16 <divVerent> also, there is a "sandbox" that is SEEMINGLY unrelated and prevents applications from accessing data of other applications, or do "evil" syscalls
May 21 19:14:32 <divVerent> however, all the jailbreaks I've seen ALSO turn off the sandbox, making even apps from the Store possibly dangerous
May 21 19:14:42 <Aoyagi> Oh, I see, thanks.
May 21 19:14:46 <divVerent> confirmed this by placing a symlink in a FTP server app
May 21 19:14:59 <divVerent> which then allowed browsing into other apps ONLY if jailbroken
May 21 19:15:32 <divVerent> now, how do people actually "apply" jailbreaks? By somehow screwing up the boot process as root
May 21 19:15:35 <DocScrutinizer05> there you are
May 21 19:15:39 <divVerent> be it via a manipulated backup file
May 21 19:15:39 <Aoyagi> Ah, I misread that... "Sailfish uses a lightweight flavour of Linux, called the Mer operating system, and has the ability to run Android applications via a compatibility layer. Open-source Mer is based on MeeGo, Nokia's doomed mobile Linux project that Jolla's software engineers used to work on."
May 21 19:15:50 <divVerent> or (older devices) by breaking the boot loader
May 21 19:16:25 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, and meego IS aegis-infested
May 21 19:17:00 <divVerent> basically, it LOOKS like the hardest part of an Apple jailbreak is replacing the kernel or kernel extensions
May 21 19:17:21 <divVerent> once you're root AND unsandboxed, nothing prevents replacing the kernel any more
May 21 19:17:51 <DocScrutinizer05> and despite the initial hopes you can't rip out aegis from kernel and hope for a "rooted" meego. You basically had to write everything anew if you'd plan to do that
May 21 19:18:04 <divVerent> basically, such a thing CAN be done right - e.g. by closely auditing any unsandboxed root processes
May 21 19:18:14 <GeneralAntilles> Assuming Aegis will be in Sailfish is a big damn assumption.
May 21 19:18:26 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: why can't you? What would happen if aegis were just ripped out?
May 21 19:18:34 <divVerent> it then won't run any signed binaries/blobs any more?
May 21 19:18:36 <DocScrutinizer05> and loading a patched kernel is possible on meego/harmattan only because Nokia allows it
May 21 19:18:46 <DocScrutinizer05> and they didn't from beginning
May 21 19:19:16 <DocScrutinizer05> they changed the XLoader to allow that, after community bitched about the promissed openmode missing
May 21 19:19:56 <DocScrutinizer05> divVerent: everything using aegisfs on N9
May 21 19:20:17 <divVerent> I mean... can't one "just" patch aegis to say yes to all access requests?
May 21 19:20:19 <DocScrutinizer05> to store stuff like SSL certs, mail accounts, whatnot else
May 21 19:20:28 <divVerent> it SOUNDS like standard software cracking
May 21 19:20:43 <divVerent> is also how the iOS jailbreakers break the kernel binary verification
May 21 19:21:06 <DocScrutinizer05> so yes, you can rip out aegis of all the closed blobs of dialer, mailer, callendar, contacts, younameit
May 21 19:21:24 <DocScrutinizer05> but that's worse than writing *everything* anew from scratch
May 21 19:21:48 <divVerent> even if all you do is patching the kernel side of aegis to still allow "forbidden" requests?
May 21 19:21:56 <DocScrutinizer05> and still stuff like CAL flash area stays locked once CPU mode gone secure->open
May 21 19:22:22 <divVerent> thing is, I do wonder how Nokia can possibly get this working when Apple fails every single time
May 21 19:22:43 <DocScrutinizer05> again, apple took a way simpler approach
May 21 19:22:43 <divVerent> Apple's main issue is so many unsandboxed root system services that do read data from flash
May 21 19:22:56 <DocScrutinizer05> no aegisfs on apple
May 21 19:23:04 <dos1> Apple does not care that much about jailbreaking
May 21 19:23:09 <divVerent> dos1: THAT may be it
May 21 19:23:17 <divVerent> buit why do they "fix" it in every single iOS release then?
May 21 19:23:36 <dos1> because it's easy for them and they just want it to be some kind of PITA
May 21 19:24:39 <DocScrutinizer05> divVerent: patching kernel either makes device go into openmode, or will break boot all together
May 21 19:25:05 <DocScrutinizer05> dependng on policy the coder of XLoader implemented
May 21 19:25:14 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: assumign you already HAVE a runtime root exploit...
May 21 19:25:22 <divVerent> which is also the assumption iOS jailbreaks require
May 21 19:25:26 <DocScrutinizer05> root is irrelevant
May 21 19:25:32 <divVerent> I mean a runtime kernel space exploit
May 21 19:25:50 <DocScrutinizer05> your kernel will not get loaded by xloader
May 21 19:25:51 <divVerent> once you can run code at kernel level, you can patch the kernel at runtime
May 21 19:25:52 <DocScrutinizer05> period
May 21 19:26:01 <dos1> divVerent: you'd have to find exploit to bootloader
May 21 19:26:10 <divVerent> dos1: why doesn't a kernel exploit suffice?
May 21 19:26:16 <divVerent> an exploit to run user code from kernel space
May 21 19:26:24 <divVerent> Linux sometimes has one of these
May 21 19:26:26 <divVerent> but not TOO often
May 21 19:26:42 <divVerent> that SHOULD allow runtime patching the kernel
May 21 19:26:59 <dos1> ouch, runtime patching
May 21 19:27:14 <divVerent> yes, patching a few bytes of aegis to say yes to all access attempts
May 21 19:27:23 <dos1> but what about CAL?
May 21 19:27:34 <DocScrutinizer05> first version of HARM had such exploit, you could load a kernel module (with tricks) and that module gave you full control over what aegis did, without switching device hw into openmode
May 21 19:27:46 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: exactly
May 21 19:27:46 <DocScrutinizer05> they fixed that in second release of HARM
May 21 19:27:54 <divVerent> and kernel level user code execution hole allows that
May 21 19:28:03 <divVerent> of course, they are usually fixed easily
May 21 19:28:07 <divVerent> and quickly by Linux kernel devs
May 21 19:28:32 <divVerent> so basically it's counting on Nokia to not release an upgrade fast enough
May 21 19:28:40 <divVerent> vendors tend to be slow at third party software upgrades
May 21 19:29:04 <divVerent> basically, if device is 2 years old, AND had no kernel update during the time
May 21 19:29:09 <divVerent> I would just ASSUME there is such a hole
May 21 19:29:27 <DocScrutinizer05> but gaining control over execution permissions and file permissions still doesn't mean you can do what you want, since on next boot aegis will checksum all init.d/* files and whatnot else, and if any of those got touched, you get ~malf
May 21 19:29:29 <divVerent> the hard part is finding it, Linux kernel changelogs tend to not mention these things
May 21 19:29:34 <divVerent> or tend to mention them simply as crash fixes
May 21 19:29:55 <DocScrutinizer05> ~malf
May 21 19:29:55 <infobot> well, malf is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg
May 21 19:29:57 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: yes, this kind of "jailbreak" would need to be re-executed from e.g. SD card after every boot
May 21 19:30:12 <DocScrutinizer05> haha, good luck
May 21 19:30:16 <divVerent> also common for many Apple exploits
May 21 19:30:36 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm definitely not interested in such crippled devices
May 21 19:30:36 <divVerent> like, often you only had a "tethered" jailbreak because the jailbreakers had no way yet to store it persistently
May 21 19:30:41 <divVerent> (as doing THAT requires a further exploit)
May 21 19:31:13 <DocScrutinizer05> ~aegis
May 21 19:31:13 <infobot> http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or  http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif
May 21 19:31:32 <Aoyagi> Sounds suspiciously like UEFI.
May 21 19:31:33 <DocScrutinizer05> aegis my ass
May 21 19:31:40 <DocScrutinizer05> Aoyagi: it is
May 21 19:31:44 <Aoyagi> :(
May 21 19:31:57 <divVerent> Aoyagi: yes, you can build that same thing on top of UEFI Secure Boot
May 21 19:33:10 <divVerent> I just don't believe Nokia, out of all those who tried, got such a thing to work flawlessly
May 21 19:33:21 <divVerent> yet still don't want to buy such a device
May 21 19:33:45 <Aoyagi> So that Aegise'd device, it was bricked?
May 21 19:34:08 <divVerent> that's what aegis does if it sees a problem... PROABBLY can be reflashed somehow, but that's it
May 21 19:34:25 <divVerent> but a VM running aegis AND an old linux kernel COULD be interesting for playing around :)
May 21 19:34:42 <Aoyagi> Hah, would you consider minefield a playground?
May 21 19:34:58 <Aoyagi> At least those are my impressions about the whole thing so far :D
May 21 19:35:07 <divVerent> Aoyagi: I talked about a VM :)
May 21 19:35:15 <divVerent> that can be snapshotted, reverted, etc.
May 21 19:35:49 <Aoyagi> Yeah, still tho. Oh well, I guess it could be considered a game, heh.
May 21 19:35:57 <divVerent> the part that makes this hard BTW is that one would need to go right from sandboxed userspace to kernel space... quite MANY barriers to break
May 21 19:36:26 <divVerent> so even if a hole is found, quite likely aegis (or is polciies whereever it gets these from) may be adjustable to fix the hole
May 21 19:36:49 <divVerent> e.g. if the exploit involves mmap(), you could just ban mmap()
May 21 19:37:44 <Aoyagi> Isn't that kind of a duct type solution?
May 21 19:37:50 <divVerent> (Linux actually at some point restricted mmap() for that very reason... the null address is no longer mmap()able so one can't that easily exploit kernel NULL pointer dereferences)
May 21 19:38:04 <divVerent> Aoyagi: frameworks like Aegis are great for implementing duct tape
May 21 19:38:06 <divVerent> even the OS X sandbox is
May 21 19:38:14 <Aoyagi> hah
May 21 19:38:16 <divVerent> (i.e. the iOS sandbox OS X recently got too)
May 21 19:38:45 <divVerent> like, the old Linux mmap+NULL pointer dereference exploits would probably be a simple syscall argument match rule for such a framework
May 21 19:39:16 <divVerent> the easiest way, but also most likely to be impossible, would be a buffer overrun in parsing those manifest files :)
May 21 19:39:22 <divVerent> but I expect that THIS part is actually coded right
May 21 19:39:28 <DocScrutinizer05> you can't do a proper aegis VM
May 21 19:39:49 <DocScrutinizer05> aegis asks for the certs in a secure region of flash that you can't read out
May 21 19:40:07 <DocScrutinizer05> everything in HARM does that, e.g. for all the aegisfs
May 21 19:40:10 <divVerent> there is no reason why e.g. VirtualBox or VMWare could not emulate such a region
May 21 19:40:28 <divVerent> it may involve however rekeying
May 21 19:40:37 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, but how would you *copy* it?
May 21 19:40:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
May 21 19:40:39 <divVerent> as you can't read out the actually "correct" vendor keys
May 21 19:40:47 <divVerent> you can't, you'd have to generate your own keypair
May 21 19:40:54 <divVerent> and only test against applications signed by that
May 21 19:41:00 <divVerent> (or possiby re-sign other apps)
May 21 19:41:13 <DocScrutinizer05> that keypair won't work for OVI, for * and for **
May 21 19:41:17 <divVerent> right
May 21 19:41:38 <DocScrutinizer05> so you reinvented aegis, just without the core functions
May 21 19:41:41 <divVerent> it'd be merely an experiment to find a hole in Aegis + old kernel... which, once it worked, could be tried on an actual device
May 21 19:41:55 <DocScrutinizer05> or rather, you re-invented HARM
May 21 19:42:06 <divVerent> no, I would not even care for any applications
May 21 19:42:19 <divVerent> the only goal would be to have enough of the sandbox working so one can try breaking out of it
May 21 19:42:34 <DocScrutinizer05> there is no sandbox
May 21 19:42:43 <DocScrutinizer05> the OS is the sandbox
May 21 19:42:46 <divVerent> Aegis basically is that
May 21 19:42:48 <divVerent> sure
May 21 19:43:00 <DocScrutinizer05> afk o/
May 21 19:43:04 <divVerent> it still is a Linux kernel "with some extra code", and the goal of "breaking out" is, say, /dev/mem access
May 21 19:43:34 <divVerent> but even succeeding there is far from an actual jailbreak
May 21 19:44:15 <DocScrutinizer05> honestly, discuss it over at #harmattan, with jonni and djszapi
May 21 19:44:15 <divVerent> BTW, do any platforms do per-page executable memory signatures?
May 21 19:44:24 <DocScrutinizer05> and that guy who wrote inception
May 21 19:44:24 <divVerent> so a manipulated code in RAM will no longer be executed?
May 21 19:44:47 <divVerent> because, THAT would actually block the common ways to "jailbreak" such a system
May 21 19:45:05 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik ARM security concept already allows that
May 21 19:45:19 <divVerent> oh, OK... THEN it may ACTUALLY be unbreakable
May 21 19:45:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and it's actually used in some phones that share RAM between AP and modem
May 21 19:45:30 <divVerent> but again, why doesn't Apple then... performance :P
May 21 19:46:07 <DocScrutinizer05> I know Thor modem chips do that, when using ram bridge
May 21 19:46:08 <divVerent> because, if the whole kernel lives on such signature-protected memory pages, changing access checks in the kernel at runtime is hopeless
May 21 19:46:39 <divVerent> changing kernel DATA stays possible, but... hard to achieve a jailbreak solely by that
May 21 19:47:15 <divVerent> especially if Aegis works like a good sandbox system SHOULD work
May 21 19:47:40 <divVerent> (and e.g. keep the policies on same way protected pages)
May 21 19:47:45 <DocScrutinizer05> again, i'm not interested in jailbreaks. I'm interested on an OPEN platform that *invites* me to mess with it, not tries to block me 
May 21 19:47:55 <divVerent> agreed
May 21 19:48:06 <divVerent> I was mainly saying that IF such a thing gets popular, it eventually WILL get broken
May 21 19:48:15 <divVerent> not that I would automatically want to buy it then
May 21 19:48:42 <DocScrutinizer05> I got better targets for my creativity than jailbreaks and "who's got the longer..." with aegis developers
May 21 19:49:31 <divVerent> right
May 21 19:49:49 <divVerent> I find it mainly interesting from the security perspective... as some things such a system does could also help e.g. servers
May 21 19:49:56 <divVerent> you do not WANT exploit code to be able to run
May 21 19:50:41 <divVerent> a "properly TCPA'd" platform could be nice for a server... IF the keys are in the hands of the admins
May 21 19:50:48 <DocScrutinizer05> when HARM's security team in their eternal wisdom decide that it's "too dangerous" to allow any app developer to make the indicator LED flash, then that's it for you. You're restricted with your new leete app to a customer base that's willing to "jailbreak" their N9
May 21 19:51:09 <DocScrutinizer05> and that's *not* a made-up example
May 21 19:51:18 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the hard bitter truth
May 21 19:51:21 <divVerent> sure, same with Apple
May 21 19:51:26 <divVerent> this is what I hated about iOS most
May 21 19:51:32 <divVerent> no app can access data of other apps...
May 21 19:51:45 <divVerent> which means you don't just need one MP3 player app and one FTP server app and one file manager app
May 21 19:51:48 <divVerent> but you need ONE that does all of these
May 21 19:51:58 <divVerent> so that you can FTP MP3s to the iPhone then copy/rename them there
May 21 19:52:13 <divVerent> so the wheel is reinvented by every app
May 21 19:52:21 <divVerent> and no two apps with integrated file manager have this file manager work the same way
May 21 19:52:24 <Apic> What. Me worry?
May 21 19:52:38 <divVerent> Apic: no, that was only a rant about iOS :)
May 21 19:52:45 <divVerent> Maemo is great because it does NOT have this flaw
May 21 19:53:15 <DocScrutinizer05> and of course there is ZILCH documentation that says "sorry dude, no access to indicator LED". You have to learn about that the hard way, possibly at end of your development when you test the final product on customer devices instead of your developer device
May 21 19:53:42 <DocScrutinizer05> which happened exactly like that to MohammadAG
May 21 19:53:52 <divVerent> ouch
May 21 19:54:05 <divVerent> OK, Apple does the "same thing"... use of "undocumented APIs" is forbidden
May 21 19:54:19 <divVerent> guess what happens often to devs who developed for OS X first?
May 21 19:54:27 <divVerent> they use some API they knew from OS X, and it works on iOS...
May 21 19:54:35 <divVerent> then their app gets rejected because this particular function is not on the iOS docs
May 21 19:55:06 <DocScrutinizer05> since that day my HARM devices collect dust
May 21 19:55:39 <divVerent> and OF COURSE Apple provides no ways for developers to check their apps for use of "bad" functions
May 21 19:55:43 <divVerent> before submitting them to the Store
May 21 19:55:56 <divVerent> so it's basically the same...
May 21 19:56:00 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
May 21 19:56:05 <DocScrutinizer05> unbearable
May 21 19:56:15 <DocScrutinizer05> so, I'm afk
May 21 19:56:22 <divVerent> add to this that the search on apple.com is abysmal...
May 21 20:04:51 <DocScrutinizer05> ((a "properly TCPA'd" platform could be nice for a server... IF the keys are in the hands of the admins)) ... is what I always hear from a lot of aegis defendants. In my book there's no added security in any TCPA compared to what you can achieve with file permissions, user rights, posix permissions and e.g. selinux
May 21 20:05:24 <DocScrutinizer05> au contraire, such a setup is easier to understand, easier to maintain, and thus inherently safer
May 21 20:05:55 <DocScrutinizer05> once you find an exploit in either of both, you're busted anyway
May 21 20:06:57 <DocScrutinizer05> and no TCPA will help to avoid exploits. TCPA is for one sole purpose: NOT give the keys to the admins
May 21 20:07:01 <DocScrutinizer05> ~trust
May 21 20:07:01 <infobot> from memory, trust is safe
May 21 20:07:07 <DocScrutinizer05> ugh
May 21 20:09:00 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg
May 21 20:09:56 <Aoyagi> Do you know what I love about Germany? The way they (you) are trying to protect personal privacy.
May 21 20:21:34 <DocScrutinizer05> ~trust
May 21 20:21:35 <infobot> trust is, like, safe, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbS_lDJuJg
May 21 20:22:24 <DocScrutinizer05> which been quite an interesting fight with that b*tch, to teach her about "trust"
May 21 20:22:33 <DocScrutinizer05> since:
May 21 20:22:47 <DocScrutinizer05> ~trust is something else
May 21 20:22:48 * infobot looks at is something else suspiciously
May 21 20:22:59 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-P
May 21 20:23:24 <DocScrutinizer05> ~trust is also something else
May 21 20:23:24 * infobot looks at is also something else suspiciously
May 21 20:23:51 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listkeys trust
May 21 20:23:52 <infobot> Factoid search of 'trust' by key (14): intertrust ;; trust me you really ;; trusteddebian ;; security untrusted ;; i trust the situation ;; cmd: trust (.*?) ;; antitrust ;; infobot: trust #DEL# ;; deb-of-trust ;; security trusted path ;; linux trustees ;; security trusted channel ;; trust ;; security trusted subject.
May 21 20:24:37 <DocScrutinizer05> the problem of "grammar free" syntax
May 21 20:24:58 <Aoyagi> hah
May 21 20:25:25 <Aoyagi> "trust me you really" sounds interesting
May 21 20:25:46 <DocScrutinizer05> ~literal trust me you reall
May 21 20:25:49 * infobot looks at me you reall suspiciously
May 21 20:25:57 <DocScrutinizer05> ~literal trust me you really
May 21 20:25:58 * infobot looks at me you really suspiciously
May 21 20:26:08 <DocScrutinizer05> F U!!
May 21 20:26:42 <DocScrutinizer05> ~factinfo trust me you really
May 21 20:26:42 <infobot> trust me you really -- created by geiseri <geiseri@209.83.63.64> at Fri Dec  8 21:50:07 2000 (4546 days); it has been requested 2 times, last by pcj at Fri Nov 21 10:46:58 2008.
May 21 20:27:48 <DocScrutinizer05> factinfo cmd: trust (.*?)
May 21 20:27:56 <DocScrutinizer05> ~factinfo cmd: trust (.*?)
May 21 20:27:56 <infobot> cmd: trust (.*?) -- created by maquis <n=maquis@c-24-17-72-165.hsd1.wa.comcast.net> at Tue Sep 11 14:43:12 2007 (2079 days); it has been requested 10 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 1m 59s ago.
May 21 20:28:10 <DocScrutinizer05> ~forget cmd: trust (.*?)
May 21 20:28:11 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05: i forgot cmd: trust (.*?)
May 21 20:28:18 <DocScrutinizer05> ~literal trust me you really
May 21 20:28:19 <infobot> "trust me you really" is "<REPLY> are a hot pile of steaming man flesh..."
May 21 20:29:46 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry maquis (whoever that is), your factoid (cmd) collided with ~13 others
May 21 20:30:56 <Aoyagi> The bot sounds full.
May 21 20:31:06 <DocScrutinizer05> full like drunk?
May 21 20:31:38 <DocScrutinizer05> she sometimes sounds and acts like that
May 21 20:31:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ~attack Aoyagi
May 21 20:31:43 * infobot grabs a pen, screams like she's possessed, and begins chasing Aoyagi
May 21 20:31:50 <Aoyagi> Full of information nearing critical overflow thresholds :D
May 21 20:31:55 <Aoyagi> nooo
May 21 20:32:02 * Aoyagi runs around the channel in panic
May 21 20:32:23 <DocScrutinizer05> ~status
May 21 20:32:24 <infobot> Since Thu May 16 18:12:47 2013, there have been 38 modifications, 263 questions, 0 dunnos, 0 morons and 125 commands.  I have been awake for 5d 2h 19m 36s this session, and currently reference 119057 factoids.  I'm using about 24152 kB of memory. With 0 active forks. Process time user/system 1385.83/27.08 child 0/0
May 21 20:32:38 <DocScrutinizer05> meh, only 119057 factoids
May 21 20:32:48 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess the mysql db can handle a few more
May 21 20:34:36 <DocScrutinizer05> it seems more like somebody didn't consider that "cmd: xy $parameter" fill cause headaches when overriding factoids and even commands of the form "xy ab cd"
May 21 20:34:53 <DocScrutinizer05> s/fill/will/
May 21 20:34:53 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: it seems more like somebody didn't consider that "cmd: xy $parameter" will cause headaches when overriding factoids and even commands of the form "xy ab cd"
May 21 20:39:12 <DocScrutinizer05> bot should _first_ check if "xy ab cd" is a valid internal command, _then_ check if it's a 100% match on any simple factoid, and only _then_ match against cmd factoids, and even there it shoud try best match of number of parameters between defined cmd factoid and input. So that a input of "xy ab cd" matches "cmd: xy $1 $1" before it matches "cmd: xy $1"  or "cmd: xy $1 $2 $3" 
May 21 20:40:13 <Aoyagi> @_@
May 21 20:42:04 <ab> DocScrutinizer05: could you please mangle that input which mentions my nickname? :)
May 21 20:46:47 <RST38h> ab: He did write "xy" and "cd" around it!
May 21 21:02:09 <DocScrutinizer05> ab: sorry
May 21 21:03:00 <DocScrutinizer05> ab: I guess you never join any German channels, eh? ;-) 
May 21 21:03:12 <ab> DocScrutinizer05: :)
May 21 21:03:33 <ab> DocScrutinizer05: I used to work in a company that had 'ab <place>' in its name
May 21 21:03:34 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders if there's a user nick "is"
May 21 21:04:15 <DocScrutinizer05> or "it"
May 21 21:04:35 <DocScrutinizer05> ~seen the
May 21 21:04:44 <infobot> the <ba3034cc@gateway/web/freenode/ip.186.48.52.204> was last seen on IRC in channel #sporewiki, 3h 59m 41s ago, saying: 'Hello'.
May 21 21:05:02 <DocScrutinizer05> I bet this guy had lots of fun
May 21 21:05:53 <DocScrutinizer05> ~wiki the the
May 21 21:05:57 <infobot> At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_the (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{Use British English|date=April 2011}} {{Use dmy dates|date=April 2011}} {{Infobox musical artist | name = The The | image = | caption = | image_size = | background = group_or_band | origin = United Kingdom | genre = Post-punkAlternative rock | years_active = 1979–present | label = 4ADSome BizzareEpicNothing/InterscopeLazarus/Cineola | associated_acts = | website = | current_members ...
May 21 21:27:29 <Woody14619a> Le sigh...32G micro-sd/hc cards, class 10.  $24.  
May 21 21:28:28 <Apic> *shrug*
May 21 21:30:03 <Woody14619> Just odd to see micro-cards breaking the $1/G limit... bound to happen, but...
May 21 21:51:39 <SpeedEvil> quite.
May 21 21:52:32 <SpeedEvil> if your not keeping up, you tend to have the 'wait, that's got to be a mistake' reaction
May 21 23:46:53 <Gear_> I paid at least a buck per gig 9 months ago
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 22 02:59:58 2013