**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat May 25 02:59:57 2013 May 25 06:40:54 hi, folks May 25 06:41:49 does anybody affiliated with repository.maemo.org present? May 25 09:29:45 before I waste 30minutes to code my own: is there already an "align to grid" tool for hildon-desktop? May 25 09:29:57 if not - it looks like I'll do it as shell script then May 25 09:34:08 hmm, I think some theme manager thingy allowed to configure grid snap... May 25 09:35:33 divVerent, I have something in Settings called Theme Customizer (I forget the package name), it allows to define the snap etc May 25 09:36:29 odd, as there is no gconf setting for that May 25 09:37:01 wonder where it sets that then :) May 25 09:37:19 dunno :) but I have it set on 8 pixels and when I drag stuff around they align themselves according to that May 25 09:38:24 OH, so maybe the snap size is part of the theme May 25 09:38:29 that'd explain why I don't find it in gconf May 25 09:39:32 thanks, that did it May 25 09:40:16 no snap to grid shell script then :) May 25 09:50:07 ok. i thought the old ibm mechanical keyboard was cool up until i realized how much noise it makes when you type May 25 09:50:28 i wonder if i can find custom keys for it heh May 25 09:58:10 some of my more special keyboards have this 'plunk' sound they make when you release a key, it sorta echoes inside it also May 25 09:58:55 hard to type quietly with those :) May 25 11:56:16 A wonderful splendid Towel Day. May 25 11:58:34 dammit, didn't bring my towel May 25 13:14:44 Apic: a wonderful (UGT) good morning May 25 13:15:25 tnx May 25 13:31:47 BTW, just saw with NetStory... I need only about 100 MB per month of mobile traffic with the N900 May 25 13:31:55 by setting it to only use mobule internet when asked to May 25 13:32:01 good it has options to e.g. only May 25 13:32:07 check email on wifi automatically, and such May 25 13:32:18 iPhone in same usage pattern took about 500 MB May 25 13:32:41 100 MB however only due to Opera's Turbo server... otherwise it'd be about 200 MB May 25 14:05:32 yeah, but that usage pattern is mostly irrelevant to me, thanks xchat ;-) May 25 14:06:36 the whole idea and purpose behind irc and maemo unique awesome multitasking being the always-online aspect May 25 14:07:22 IOW the fact that I get audible and vibra notification on every highlight and inbound /query in realtime May 25 14:07:44 that would be too much for me... due to some other channels May 25 14:08:11 thing is, Maemo simply needs a lot less traffic than iOS May 25 14:08:19 because you have more control on what you enable and what not May 25 14:08:27 I also use AutoDisconnect, for example May 25 14:08:55 the only optimization I could think of is a smart proxy that does the highlight detection serverside and thus buffers "irrelevant" traffic until a realtime "event" happens May 25 14:09:36 divVerent: auto-disconnect is a poor idea and a terrible botch/hack that messes up your connectivity sooner or later May 25 14:09:46 messes up? May 25 14:09:57 I know it isn't really implemented right... but what is the worst that can happen? May 25 14:09:59 that it disconnects May 25 14:10:01 so what May 25 14:10:07 being associated to aPN doesn't mean any increased power usage or traffic per se May 25 14:10:18 sure May 25 14:10:25 but it means that the next program wanting a data connection will ask me May 25 14:10:32 (or fail) May 25 14:10:45 AutoDisconnect's main issue is that its detection logic is flawed May 25 14:10:52 it checks once per $INTERVAL for the amount of traffic since start May 25 14:11:04 so if just at the end of $INTERVAL I open the browser... May 25 14:11:12 it may still disconnect me right after fetching some data May 25 14:11:25 and I seen like half a million user complaints about mysterious defects in connectivity that were impossible to fix even by deinstallation of auto-disconnect -> reflash for those poor lads May 25 14:11:29 I can live with that though, it never hit me, but it's an obvious flaw nevertheless May 25 14:11:44 that I did not have yet May 25 14:11:56 what weird stuff does it do other than checking traffic amount and disconnecting? May 25 14:12:08 yeah it kicks in at random, eventually May 25 14:12:29 yes, it does kick in at random, by its flawed design... for the reason I described May 25 14:12:33 but that issue I can live with May 25 14:12:44 auto-disconnect is messing with icd config and logic in a way that doesn't get deinstalled by postrm May 25 14:12:54 why would it even need to do that May 25 14:12:59 eventually icd breaks on that mess May 25 14:13:13 and do you have any other software to suggest for that purpose? May 25 14:13:22 all I REALLY want is automatic disconnection from GPRS/3G when locking May 25 14:13:39 sorry I never did an in-depth evaluation, just episodic wisdom May 25 14:13:53 also, if the bug is known, why isn't it fixed May 25 14:13:57 (the bug in postrm, that is) May 25 14:14:16 divVerent: for THAT I'd suggest dbus-scripting plus some smart dbus message to ICD2 May 25 14:14:18 see May 25 14:14:33 ~phone-control May 25 14:14:35 I wouldn't know which message, though May 25 14:14:38 ~phonecontrol May 25 14:14:39 and on which event May 25 14:14:40 from memory, phonecontrol is http://wiki.maemo.org/Phone_control May 25 14:14:46 but also May 25 14:14:50 now that I know postrm has a bug May 25 14:14:54 should I really dare to deinstall it? May 25 14:15:08 or would that even CAUSE issues due to now dangling references? May 25 14:15:23 nah, deinstall of auto-disconnect is prone to COMPLETELY mess up stuff May 25 14:15:38 why is it in extras BTW then May 25 14:15:41 if it is that broken May 25 14:15:41 yep, exactly May 25 14:15:46 shouldn't such stuff remain in extras-devel then? May 25 14:15:53 indeed May 25 14:16:07 I sure can't afford reflashing it May 25 14:16:12 it'd take me ages to get set up aghain May 25 14:16:25 auto-disconect would be a fine candidate to join crappatch's fate May 25 14:16:26 EVEN with backup of all gconf stuff May 25 14:16:44 in my book May 25 14:16:56 alas I have no time to follow up on it May 25 14:16:58 actually... is there a tool that identifies all modified system files (including config), and creates a diff from the original version? :) May 25 14:17:05 debsums is sort of that May 25 14:17:08 but not packaged for Maemo May 25 14:17:21 well, you know the path to go... ;-D May 25 14:17:26 if I have the list of files modified from the original version, all else I need is the original .debs and diff May 25 14:17:31 seen your application May 25 14:17:36 yes, but it'd take me still a few weeks to be able to run the SDK May 25 14:17:43 I still only have my eeepc 701 May 25 14:18:03 and yes, debsums should be somewhat easy to port May 25 14:18:08 although the debian binary does not run on Maemo May 25 14:18:13 too many library dependencies for crypto hash stuff May 25 14:18:19 :nod: May 25 14:18:26 but such libs tend to be quite portable May 25 14:18:41 actually, if I had a Debian system here... I could run debsums remotely :) May 25 14:18:53 debsums can use another root, and sshfs exists May 25 14:19:15 or you ask somebody with a proper system to run that stuff for you ;-D May 25 14:19:21 hehe May 25 14:19:23 actually May 25 14:19:25 debsums may be a good idea May 25 14:19:32 it may even find what AutoDisconnect screwed up May 25 14:19:41 yep, absolutel ping merlin1991! May 25 14:19:54 once you know the file, it probably can be fixed by a few dpkg commands May 25 14:19:57 he might be very interested May 25 14:20:24 he also might be willing to help on getting debsums pkg built for maemo May 25 14:20:25 too bad it's still ugly to download every single .deb, and extract the one file to compare with May 25 14:20:48 also, I recently noticed that LOTS of stuff from community is not in the mp-community-*-pr metapackage May 25 14:20:50 not even apt is May 25 14:21:00 :nod: May 25 14:21:02 or the notes app is not either May 25 14:21:11 I had wondered why my deborphan keepers file is so big :) May 25 14:21:11 that's base package that comes by flashing May 25 14:21:15 I created it from a fresh install May 25 14:21:35 some of the packages in that list SURE don't look like I could safely remove them May 25 14:21:47 sure May 25 14:21:49 so mp-*-pr does not protect all that should be protected from "accidental" removal May 25 14:22:17 that's why apt-get upgrade is forbidden (well, one of the reasons, and not really exactly fitting this case, but anyway) May 25 14:22:24 upgrade does not remove stuff May 25 14:22:27 you mean dist-upgrade :) May 25 14:22:31 yep May 25 14:22:40 but even dist-upgrade doesn't "just do" it May 25 14:22:44 it lists what it would do, and asks May 25 14:22:47 and auto-remove May 25 14:22:47 something one should ALWAYS read May 25 14:22:53 even on Ubuntu this broke stuff sometimes May 25 14:22:59 and other weird commands on apt cmdline May 25 14:23:04 like, I had it once want to remove bash on Ubuntu May 25 14:23:19 lol May 25 14:23:21 autoremove is not even broken... May 25 14:23:27 it does what it is designed for... and its design is bad May 25 14:23:28 probably deinstalled 90% of system May 25 14:23:30 it's equally bad on Debian May 25 14:23:50 just that Debian does a better job at marking packages "essential" May 25 14:23:55 which apt generally refuses to remove May 25 14:24:08 :nod: May 25 14:24:25 nokia been terribly lazy on dependcy-definitions May 25 14:24:37 I actually hate the autoremove function of packaging systems May 25 14:24:41 I mean, does it even do any good? May 25 14:24:47 I install stuff, try it out... and later want to remove it May 25 14:24:52 they cut edges there, assuming they were in full control of every PR that rolls out May 25 14:24:53 but when I installed like 50 crazy things to try out May 25 14:24:58 then I don't remember any more which they were May 25 14:25:09 so basically, I do not even WANT automatic marking as "wanted" when installing stuff May 25 14:25:24 I know you can tell apt to not do that, but the default is bad and leads to clutter in that list May 25 14:25:31 that's why I use debfoster/deborphan May 25 14:25:45 my workflow is to rather install lots of stuff May 25 14:25:47 try it out May 25 14:25:50 mark as good what I want to keep May 25 14:25:52 then remove all else May 25 14:25:54 you seem pretty savvy regarding that stuff May 25 14:26:12 using Debian, Ubuntu for ages... May 25 14:26:21 as for debsums, I will now try to run that over WLAN then Internet then my server :) May 25 14:26:29 the flash image isn't THAT big, so it may even work May 25 14:26:29 all it needs is a proper lesson on all the broken stuff in maemo packaging and we have a new maintainer ;-) May 25 14:26:46 isn't the lesson of what is NOT broken shorter? :) May 25 14:26:53 indeed ;-P May 25 14:27:45 regarding the phone control page... I was not into telephony much May 25 14:27:51 what is the difference between "ICD" and "ICD2" May 25 14:28:04 let's face it: apt never been meant to get used without HAM wrapper around it, on maemo May 25 14:28:36 I think there is no difference, except lazy typing May 25 14:28:39 I somewhat doubt the HAM wrapper does it a lot better... it does other things worse May 25 14:29:05 is the icd2 documented anywhere? May 25 14:29:20 that bitmask field looks intriguing... like, can it be told to not touch wifi? :) May 25 14:29:51 (HAM) well, it adds another layer of abstraction, some filtering, and a new concept of traust/security May 25 14:29:55 ah, no May 25 14:29:55 trust* May 25 14:30:00 it is documented, and does nothing useful May 25 14:30:12 they should rather have done this trust concept as part of apt May 25 14:30:37 hm... "network type" is one of the args of that request. That sounds neat. May 25 14:30:45 so disconnect GPRS on lock is actually quite easy May 25 14:30:57 it sure is May 25 14:31:04 oh wait, also noticed something else May 25 14:31:07 I want to conserve battery life May 25 14:31:09 would take me max 15 min to implement May 25 14:31:24 so maybe what I really want is to disconnect GPRS _and_ wifi as soon as I am on battery AND locked May 25 14:31:31 yes, probably May 25 14:31:44 only this checking for both things... is not that trivial using just dbus-script May 25 14:31:51 unless I store data in files, which I would not want to May 25 14:32:01 get dbus-scripting pkg, run dbus-monitor and find out about the relevant events/messages, implement the dbus-scripting-script May 25 14:32:14 so I would rather want to check lock state and charging state... in worst case, using bnf's way, and lock is sure in the process table :) May 25 14:32:23 dbus-scripting however is somewhat stateless... or not? May 25 14:32:26 it nonly responds to messages May 25 14:32:40 why not store data in temporary files? May 25 14:32:42 but if I only want to react when TWO events are true, and no matter which one came last May 25 14:32:47 that is error prone :) May 25 14:32:58 I'd rather check the respective other state on each state change May 25 14:33:06 or, even better: find our about sttaes by more dbus messages or rads from sysfs? May 25 14:33:15 yes, that would be it May 25 14:33:36 just means more badly doucmented dbus stuff to figure out May 25 14:33:42 damn, my typing sucks today even worse than usually May 25 14:34:01 dbus-monitor is your friend May 25 14:34:41 and dbus-introspections (which is non-existant for all genuine nokia dbus objects >:-( ) May 25 14:35:12 check out mdbus aka mickey#s dbus monitor May 25 14:35:19 awesome May 25 14:35:35 tan expansion on dbus methods and addr May 25 14:35:39 tab* May 25 14:35:53 based on introspection May 25 14:36:14 AAAWEESOME! May 25 14:37:04 that is nice May 25 14:37:42 http://www.google.de/search?q=mdbus+mickey May 25 14:39:12 0root@v220120211684756499:~# debsums -r /mnt -l > no-md5sums.txt; debsums -r /mnt -c -a > changed-md5sums.txt May 25 14:39:14 iirc it's python! ;-) May 25 14:39:16 wonder how slow that will be :) May 25 14:39:30 probably a few hours May 25 14:39:44 1Mbit/s upstream May 25 14:40:21 you should get a proper account on a net box with some cpu grunt and fat backbone May 25 14:40:44 the server I use basically has that May 25 14:40:52 the 1MBit/s is the limit of my ADSL the N900 is connected to May 25 14:41:02 err May 25 14:41:14 k May 25 14:41:32 all PC I have here is the eeepc with 4 GB SSD May 25 14:41:37 and 2 GB RAM May 25 14:41:46 a typical case where the rule "swap = 2 * ram" would be REALLY bad May 25 14:41:52 I finally should upload a complete virgin maemo5 fs to $somewhere May 25 14:41:59 so I used an alternate rule: "swap = 0" May 25 14:42:18 divVerent: 2GB RAM for a Linux system is a /lot/ May 25 14:42:29 yes May 25 14:42:32 but I sometimes used it May 25 14:42:35 I had to run Java stuff... May 25 14:42:55 typically in my daily use, up to 1GB get used May 25 14:43:04 some web sites eat a lot of RAM May 25 14:43:05 don't ever try to run crazy PHP jobs on it! ;-) May 25 14:43:07 actually, unless I were to build/link large programs, e.g. Android/Firefox/Chrome/etc., I'd have swap off May 25 14:43:21 on SSD I never use swap... except on the N900 where it can't be avoided May 25 14:43:29 we got one on garage.m.o that used to use 5GB of ram, for nuttin May 25 14:43:32 but there I moved swap to an old micro SD card May 25 14:43:39 if it breaks from write cycles, so be it May 25 14:43:50 there is BTW a neat trick to "move" swap on N900 May 25 14:43:56 just swapon -p 1 /dev/elsewhere May 25 14:44:00 it will take priority over the default swap May 25 14:44:19 just that messybox original swapon doesn't take any parameters May 25 14:44:28 I have the swapon with parameters May 25 14:44:29 particularly not prio May 25 14:44:30 no matter where from May 25 14:44:34 but the prio is set in /proc/swaps May 25 14:44:44 divVerent: with bb-power, I edited the init scripts to automatically swap to SD card if a swap partition is detected there May 25 14:45:06 rikanee: that I didn't dare :) May 25 14:45:30 the swapon I have here is from busybox, and only supports -a and -p prio options May 25 14:45:40 but that may be only in bb-power May 25 14:46:08 swapon -p is broken on PR1.3 busybox ;) May 25 14:46:12 broken how? May 25 14:46:14 debsums: missing file /mnt/opt/maemo/usr/share/doc/an-droid-theme/copyright (from an-droid-theme package) May 25 14:46:24 do I really like that error? May 25 14:46:39 ah, right May 25 14:46:44 there is this /usr/share/doc deleting hack May 25 14:46:57 but why is it then in the .deb in the first place? May 25 14:47:02 why not build the .debs with that stuff removed? May 25 14:47:17 divVerent: they didn't patch the packager to do so May 25 14:47:29 instead, it's done by a postinst cleanup script May 25 14:48:17 ah, and debsums doesn't apply the root to absolute symlinks May 25 14:48:21 explaining some other missing filles May 25 14:48:45 that is unfortunate May 25 14:49:51 so, restarting with sshfs now using -o transform_symlinks May 25 14:50:32 rikanee: that sounds stupid May 25 14:50:58 shouldn't one rather do this on the build server creating the .debs? May 25 14:50:58 divVerent: just one hack in the pile of hacks that is Maemo May 25 14:51:14 that part should be fixable on the upload server, though May 25 14:51:17 ideally, it should be done as a config option in every single package May 25 14:51:28 in a Debian world, yes, but that is asking too much May 25 14:51:42 maintainers having to fix every single package to not installing docs, I do understand why that is asking too much May 25 14:51:57 but it isn't hard to unpack a .deb, remove the doc files AND their references in the file list, then repack it May 25 14:52:32 in a Debian world, packages with "big" doc already solve this by splitting it up in foo and foo-doc packages May 25 14:57:34 do I really WANT to see that debsums report... May 25 14:57:42 debsums: missing file /mnt/usr/share/man/man1/aseqdump.1.gz (from alsa-utils package) May 25 14:57:46 so the ALSA MIDI crap is compiled in May 25 14:57:58 easily wastes 500kb... May 25 15:01:38 I want to install g++-4.6 and I need libc6-dev and that also needs linux-kernel-headers May 25 15:02:12 the only way I can find to get these packages is to search for them and uses maemo.org to get a direct link May 25 15:03:34 oooh I see, the pool thing confused me. so I am indeed looking at the freemantle free sdk repo May 25 15:11:01 yay installing with the new repos May 25 15:12:18 I wanted C++ mostly for installing fish May 25 15:12:54 DocScrutinizer05: I see the issue with debsums again May 25 15:13:07 right, it is in Perl - and starts with a screenful of "use" statements May 25 15:13:20 no chance to port that to Maemo... even if you do succeed, you need like 10 more packagves May 25 15:13:25 ugh backlog, tl;dr May 25 15:13:28 wazzup? May 25 15:14:38 I have up running debsums over this pipe... does take way too long May 25 15:14:58 will do it when my real PC is there... which has big enough disk to run a debian chroot :) May 25 15:15:09 divVerent: you're aware that we, when pondering how to add karma from IRC, conisdered to give *negative* karma for more than 3 consecutive posts from same guy without anybody answering? May 25 15:16:09 no, was not aware... I normally prefer to break lines early May 25 15:16:33 users tend to ignore long monologues May 25 15:17:10 (I know I'm not the one who's always aware of that truth either) May 25 15:18:20 anyway, now trying to run debsums on my eeepc... which runs Arch linux though May 25 15:18:54 :nod: May 25 15:19:08 it looks like File::FnMatch isn't even packaged for Arch May 25 15:20:18 apt-get dist-upgrade with that sdk repo wants to remove most of my packages :( May 25 15:21:21 no, it heavily assumes to be able to call the dpkg binary May 25 15:21:32 eddyb9: known issue, don't dist-upgrade May 25 15:21:38 dammit May 25 15:21:57 but normally dist-upgrade just fails resolving conflicts at all :) May 25 15:21:58 I want to switch over to a cssu (maybe thumb) repo May 25 15:22:08 oh, THAT is not to be done via dist-upgrade anyway May 25 15:22:14 please undo your previous reposiotry adding May 25 15:22:19 hmm? May 25 15:22:21 and follow the documentation on cssu/cssu-thumb directly May 25 15:22:25 it works totally different May 25 15:22:30 what do you mean? May 25 15:22:38 you are supposed to use some .install file May 25 15:22:38 how different? May 25 15:22:43 which then will graphically bring your system to CSSU May 25 15:22:49 via HAM May 25 15:23:06 if you do it just by apt means, it won't do some reconfiguring required by the upgrade May 25 15:23:13 but that uses apt sources, doesn't it? May 25 15:23:30 not only that May 25 15:23:38 well, ham wasn't doing anything last time I tried May 25 15:24:19 maybe it was, but this darn debian crap isn't transparent enough May 25 15:24:48 apt-get is so bad compared to zypper, and aptitude doesn't do much better May 25 15:25:10 you just aren't supposed to add a repository at all for this May 25 15:25:20 you install a specific file you get on the page explaining CSSU (don't have the link here) May 25 15:25:46 this will add the repository, and set up some other stuff May 25 15:25:51 yes May 25 15:26:00 also, there is a so-called CSSU Enabler you will have to run May 25 15:26:04 see the step by step instructions May 25 15:26:11 but it's not transparent and I can't even see what happened afterwards May 25 15:26:17 you can read the scripts May 25 15:26:20 it indeed is not transparent May 25 15:26:21 derp May 25 15:26:28 you should just do it like the docs say May 25 15:26:58 sudo zypper se | grep thumb May 25 15:27:09 that would tell me which packages are thumb May 25 15:27:29 ~cssu May 25 15:27:30 cssu is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU May 25 15:27:33 or with -s, I can also see which packages have thumb versions that aren't installed May 25 15:28:53 maemo doesn't work like any other usual debian distro, when it comes to repostiories and package management May 25 15:29:26 not like any RPM based distro either May 25 15:29:33 so it's even worse. I like to know what state my packages are in May 25 15:30:16 loom into HAM and there on "uninstall" - all packages meant to maybe get uninstalled by user are listed there May 25 15:30:35 that'S about as much as you can get to know about 2state of packages" May 25 15:30:49 if a package gets a thumb version after I do this, I can't just automatically upgrade to that May 25 15:30:50 plus of course there's apt-cache policy May 25 15:31:25 also ham is the slowest thing ever May 25 15:31:36 well, there's some reason for that May 25 15:31:47 it does stuff apt-get doesn't May 25 15:32:21 there's usually nothing wrong in apr-get install May 25 15:32:35 but you never should touch any of the other apt-get commands May 25 15:32:51 as a rule of thumb (except apt-get update ;-D ) May 25 15:33:12 and you should also never edit the catalog/repo files directly May 25 15:34:05 I changed sources.list to add the sdk repos May 25 15:34:19 BZZZ already a mistake May 25 15:34:28 generally May 25 15:34:48 eddyb9, DANGER! DANGER! May 25 15:34:51 even two mistakes May 25 15:35:11 sdk repo isn't meant for target platform May 25 15:35:49 you might replace maemo5 core stuff by emulations for scratchbox/qemu May 25 15:36:27 :/ May 25 15:36:38 but I wanted g++ May 25 15:36:53 and you can't install it without sdk May 25 15:36:55 eddyb9: do it in a chroot May 25 15:37:02 srsly? May 25 15:37:03 GCC doesn't like being optified May 25 15:37:11 well, then build a proper deb pkg on SDK, with all dependencies, and install it on N900 May 25 15:38:08 gcc works fine, but g++ has a broken secondary dependency May 25 15:38:29 which is like bad package maintenance May 25 15:40:50 why does everyone screw up linux on mobile? May 25 15:56:54 The sdk repo is not compatible with device repos May 25 15:57:38 eddyb9: because they can May 25 15:57:45 I wish someone would package gcc though, compile it with --prefix=/opt/gcc/ or something :) May 25 15:57:49 why doesn't any real linux distro make a mobile OS? May 25 15:57:59 (no, Ubuntu Phone does not count, that is still Android) May 25 16:05:46 ubuntu are doing the craziest shit May 25 16:05:58 why an Ubuntu Phone is still Android????? May 25 16:06:25 Sc0rpius: because they cheated May 25 16:06:29 and maybe lied May 25 16:07:29 openSUSE has releases for ARM boards, and I wouldn't be surprised if I could get it working on N900, but the nokia closed source stuff would be a PITA May 25 16:08:44 I still don't get why people say Ubuntu Phones are Androids when they are clearly not May 25 16:10:03 you clearly not know the crap canonical is doing May 25 16:10:25 NOBODY knows May 25 16:10:37 there are just rumors May 25 16:10:46 what? May 25 16:12:22 nobody has seen an Ubuntu phone so nobody knows how they really are May 25 16:12:39 and people is way misinformed May 25 16:12:44 people say "Ubuntu phones can't make calls right now" May 25 16:12:53 WHICH Ubuntu phone if there is NONE available May 25 16:13:04 Canonical already said by the end of March they are going to show a fully-functional phone May 25 16:13:10 http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/ubuntu-for-android May 25 16:13:16 THAT'S NOT THE SAME THING!!!!!!!!!! May 25 16:13:27 DON'T YOU EVER confuse Ubuntu for Android with Ubuntu Phone!! May 25 16:13:42 Ubuntu for Android is something you can install in Android phones May 25 16:13:50 oh my, aren't you mad May 25 16:13:52 Ubuntu Phone is a whole new device with NATIVE Linux running on it and NO JAVA May 25 16:14:03 see? May 25 16:14:07 I knew you were misinformed. May 25 16:14:28 Except there's no Ubuntu Phone yet May 25 16:14:33 So how can you know? May 25 16:14:41 those are my lines!! May 25 16:14:50 http://www.zdnet.com/canonical-to-dogfood-ubuntu-smartphones-before-end-of-may-7000015204/ May 25 16:15:10 and that's not a Samsung running Ubuntu for Android (a total different SOFTWARE product) May 25 16:15:10 Yeah, I'll believe it all when I see it. May 25 16:15:18 Canonical being Canonical May 25 16:15:23 yeah well everybody said the same about Jolla and Jolla showed their phone May 25 16:15:29 now it's Canonical's turn May 25 16:15:33 they will show the phone May 25 16:15:46 http://www.ubuntu.com/phone/ May 25 16:15:51 have you see polls? worldwide people is more likely to support an Ubuntu phone (known brand, etc) than a Jolla phone May 25 16:15:59 between the weasel words it says android May 25 16:16:00 eddyb9, now that's the link you should be reading :) May 25 16:16:10 it's obvious what they're doing May 25 16:16:10 it is NOT Android. May 25 16:16:20 ubuntu for android is a subpage of that May 25 16:16:29 it's a different product May 25 16:16:53 they're running a mutated linux on top of android May 25 16:17:09 that's the Ubuntu for Android which you can install since ages in your Android phone May 25 16:17:09 you'll see May 25 16:17:11 that exists since AGES May 25 16:17:23 it's not the same thing May 25 16:17:34 Ubuntu Phone uses a whole different OS called Ubuntu Touch May 25 16:17:51 Ubuntu for Android runs on a phone running Android. It's an APP, it's not a whole OS. It's just an app May 25 16:18:19 loool wtf? May 25 16:18:25 before June 1st Canonical will show the phone May 25 16:18:28 QML? May 25 16:19:03 Ubuntu for Android is like that EasyDebian in the N900 May 25 16:19:05 exactly the same May 25 16:19:14 but for Android phones of course May 25 16:19:19 ubuntu, using Qt? May 25 16:19:24 * eddyb9 popcorn May 25 16:19:35 yes. The Ubuntu Phone using Ubuntu Touch OS uses Qt. May 25 16:20:55 but won't they get all the hate in the world as they are the largest gnome userbase? May 25 16:21:26 having the "ubuntu" name on it, it's pretty unlikely it'll get hate May 25 16:21:34 except for purist geeks May 25 16:21:48 I don't think Canonical actually has a device May 25 16:21:49 and let's be hones purist geeks is like 0.056% of the potential buyers. May 25 16:21:55 They're chasing OEMs May 25 16:22:18 lol, purist geeks May 25 16:22:24 and ubuntu in the name May 25 16:22:24 And their hardware support has some relation to linhybris. May 25 16:22:48 they want to abuse android drivers May 25 16:22:48 maybe they'll show the OS in an existing device May 25 16:22:58 of course they will May 25 16:23:04 but not OVER Android May 25 16:23:15 totally replacing it instead. May 25 16:23:19 that's what it says on the front page, between the weasel words May 25 16:23:25 not totally May 25 16:23:47 Android hardware without dalvik VM = WIN May 25 16:25:18 good luck getting QML JITed May 25 16:25:27 it is not running Java... May 25 16:25:42 not sure what QtScript is using right now behind the scenes May 25 16:25:45 you're just being stubborn and hateful against something you have yet to see May 25 16:25:54 dude May 25 16:25:55 we need to be open May 25 16:26:00 QML is JavaScript May 25 16:26:04 open to Jolla, open to Ubuntu Phone May 25 16:26:09 with some syntax changes May 25 16:26:19 it is JavaScript based but it is not JavaScript. May 25 16:26:59 I know because I use kde4. I like Qt, and if anything good comes out of this ubuntu fuckup is a win for Qt May 25 16:27:02 the thing is, like I said in the forums May 25 16:27:14 Jolla is destined to die if the software companies don't support it May 25 16:27:19 yes and they use a JS engine May 25 16:27:27 but they will blindly support something that has "ubuntu" on it May 25 16:27:29 let me check exactly which one May 25 16:27:42 May 25 16:27:52 Sc0rpius: that's almost as bad as windows mobile May 25 16:28:10 I don't want support for a shitty linux distro, I want generic support May 25 16:28:32 I know you want a Linux distro but May 25 16:28:33 ShadowJK: are you available for a short test? May 25 16:28:42 if you're objective a Windows Phone is great for the general phone user May 25 16:28:45 (not for the geek) May 25 16:28:57 and Windows Phone have support, every app exists for Windows Phone May 25 16:29:08 will every app exist for Jolla? I doubt it will get a WhatsApp. May 25 16:29:14 we can't have progress without hackers May 25 16:29:19 I doubt it will get an Instagram May 25 16:29:28 instagram doesn't exist on windows phone ;-) May 25 16:29:34 and those kind of apps are the apps that make the phone sell May 25 16:29:38 and if the phone don't sell, the phone dies,. May 25 16:29:44 pfft May 25 16:29:45 DocScrutinizer05; well, at bbq party with refreshments May 25 16:29:48 fuck consumerism May 25 16:30:24 there's something called Itsdagram for Windows Phone hehehe May 25 16:30:33 which is a fully functional Instagram client May 25 16:30:43 eddyb9, we're talking about a business May 25 16:30:51 and Jolla wants to make a business out of it May 25 16:30:59 not just make happy 50.000 geeks around the world May 25 16:31:48 when there are 500 million iOS devices around the world <--- that's the number they want May 25 16:31:53 that's the number everybody wants (even Ubuntu Phones) May 25 16:32:41 you don't start a revolution like that May 25 16:32:53 silly silly half-assed penguins May 25 16:33:06 if Jolla knows something about this is that if they make a phone 100% targetted to geeks they will be out of business in less than a year May 25 16:33:15 like the N900/N9 May 25 16:33:30 they have to make something good for both worlds: the geeks and the average phone user May 25 16:33:43 that's why by the way they have to ditch hardware keyboard. May 25 16:33:55 they are somewhat dodgy when talking about a keyboarded jolla device May 25 16:33:59 even if we would love a hardware keyboard, that would cut the sells in 75% May 25 16:34:12 they know they have to ditch the keyboard. May 25 16:34:20 o_O QML switched to v8 May 25 16:34:28 there apparently is some work being done on "other half" for a keyboard option May 25 16:34:36 which means crazy fast even on ARM May 25 16:34:37 the device won't be appealing with a hardware keyboard. May 25 16:34:54 I want the hardware keyboard May 25 16:34:58 but I know it's very unlikely. May 25 16:35:06 I don't really see why it wouldn't be appealing with a HW kb May 25 16:35:21 if done correctly it could be good May 25 16:35:33 ask your 15 years old daughter if she would want one with a hw keyboard May 25 16:35:40 wait, what, they're replacing v8? May 25 16:35:52 and the way she thinks, it's the way 500 millions iOS users think, and you want to sell your phone to 500 million users. May 25 16:36:01 Sc0rpius, if I had one the most shou would have would be a nokia s40 device May 25 16:36:20 she would say "I want an iPhone 5" :/ like all teenagers say. May 25 16:36:23 unless she bought it with her own money May 25 16:36:27 hahaha May 25 16:36:28 Sc0rpius, not really May 25 16:36:38 Sc0rpius, someone's kid in this building bought a lumia May 25 16:36:44 ~15 or so years old May 25 16:36:46 Lumia's are GREAT May 25 16:36:49 (for kids) May 25 16:36:58 dude I saw a Nokia Lumia 920 in action May 25 16:37:03 and it's great for those kids May 25 16:37:07 but then you install SSH client May 25 16:37:09 you connect May 25 16:37:16 you switch application let's say somebody messaged you May 25 16:37:19 ---- connection dropped May 25 16:37:23 and that sucks. May 25 16:37:38 well atleast with android that has a chance of surviving May 25 16:37:38 since there's no real multitasking and not even event handlers for sockets they can't stay connected May 25 16:37:44 seriously May 25 16:37:46 everything has to be coded "push oriented" May 25 16:37:55 they save hours of battery like that May 25 16:37:59 but that frustrates me May 25 16:38:16 what's wrong with a device where you can use the hw keyboard, but it's optional? May 25 16:38:26 absolutely nothing May 25 16:38:39 you'll have to carry the keyboard around = annoying May 25 16:38:42 if they can make the "other half" a sliding keyboard option it would be fantastinc I'd say May 25 16:38:44 wat May 25 16:38:45 unless it's something you can dock in the device May 25 16:39:00 Sc0rpius, you are aware they have this "other half" thingy with jolla May 25 16:39:00 carry around the keyboard? May 25 16:39:05 basically a custom back cover May 25 16:39:18 yeah they invade twitter with "other half" ads May 25 16:39:20 I'd say a keyboard for that isn't out of the question May 25 16:39:30 N900 only needs to be slimmer May 25 16:39:39 if they find an appealing way to do it, I hope they will. May 25 16:39:40 and it's already touch or hw kb May 25 16:39:52 http://jollatides.com/2013/05/23/share-your-ideas-your-dream-other-half/ May 25 16:40:02 what would be wrong with a slimmer N900? May 25 16:40:39 there's this "leaked" design for the succesor of N9, best phone I've ever seen May 25 16:41:52 http://mynokiablog.com/2012/09/04/leaked-prototype-nokia-lauta-rm-742-cancelled-immediate-n9-successor/ May 25 16:42:07 the keyboard is non-intrusive May 25 16:42:16 what would be wrong with that? May 25 16:42:34 that looks nice May 25 16:42:38 I'd grab one of those May 25 16:42:59 seriously, more design, less corporate crap (like closed source), less forced user pleasing May 25 16:43:34 the things geeks would like also affect a large share of the market, but less visibly May 25 16:44:31 android is kinda good because it gives you more freedom (if rooted) and even if I despise Java, the dalvik thing is working good for them May 25 16:45:54 if I could do everything I've ever wanted (or at least the simple things), the world would be a better place :-< May 25 16:46:47 I know how to run windows phone apps alongside android and native PC linux apps May 25 16:47:00 that Lauta is nice May 25 16:47:22 eddyb9: The World _is_ a good Place, just the _People_ suck. May 25 16:47:36 it needs some work, but less work than each of those platforms needs May 25 16:49:11 I've been knowing some magic for a while now, and I've been trying to do some things, like break crypto (that failed and is postponed until NP=P), write an web IDE or a decompiler May 25 16:50:05 the last one is the current one, but I have a track record of not finishing things and also being crappy at doing more than a week of work in the time of a few months May 25 16:50:16 decompiler for what? May 25 16:50:25 everything executable May 25 16:50:40 good luck with that May 25 16:51:05 best choice right now is to spend $4k for IDA Pro and HexRays, which are useless most of the time May 25 16:51:14 IDA pro is great May 25 16:51:18 hahaha May 25 16:51:21 noob May 25 16:51:37 eddyb9: you do know that you can solve any NP problem in polynomial time by making use of Moore's Law? May 25 16:51:41 I've been using it for ages, specially for ARM May 25 16:51:49 IDA is not a decompiler, but a disassembler/debugger, not the same thing May 25 16:52:12 hexrays claims to be May 25 16:52:20 but they're both crap May 25 16:52:44 all decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++ May 25 16:53:01 since it really depends on the compiler how you can decompile things May 25 16:53:21 I had a x86 backend in a couple of days, and in another few days I had working stack analysis May 25 16:53:28 which IDA doesn't have May 25 16:53:37 Sc0rpius: common misconception May 25 16:53:41 now a decompiler for Android or .NET (like Windows Phone apps) will show perfect codes but there are already way too many decompilers for that May 25 16:54:20 well I'm not sure if you know how compilers work May 25 16:54:28 that's because those have bytecode formats that require type information May 25 16:54:53 but at least you should agree that a single C line of code will be assembled different in gcc compared to other compiler May 25 16:55:16 it will be assembled differently in different versions of gcc May 25 16:55:22 a decompiler would have to guess which compiler was used and guess what was the original C line May 25 16:55:23 exactly May 25 16:55:29 and if you use -O options in gcc May 25 16:55:36 and in the same version with different optimization levels May 25 16:55:56 ok, you're not dumb, but I'm slow because xchat on N900 May 25 16:56:23 but the thing is... May 25 16:56:45 the processor will do similar operations no matter the compiler May 25 16:56:50 or the platform May 25 16:57:27 you only have a problem if you have legacy disasm, which is what IDA gives you for two thousand dollars May 25 16:58:07 well since most people that use IDA don't use it for legal reasons most people don't get IDA in legal ways ;) May 25 16:58:52 if I wasn't this fucked up with school & stuff, I would've had a web interface with more of C-like output, already May 25 16:59:35 like Bill Gates said (or shoud have said9 May 25 16:59:46 "assembler ought to be enough for everybody" May 25 16:59:57 :) May 25 17:00:02 so you don't really need a decompiler May 25 17:00:18 so you're ignorant May 25 17:01:14 wIDE would be finished already, too. awesome code manipulation :-< May 25 17:01:40 an ignorant because I can read assembler and don't need C code? May 25 17:01:51 I've been cracking software since I'm 8 years old and I'm almost 40! May 25 17:02:07 even before x86 processors were out May 25 17:02:20 you're ignorant because you think you can do things in assembly May 25 17:02:20 disassembling for Z80, MC6502, MC6809E, etc the real processors at the time :) May 25 17:02:25 I can May 25 17:02:30 want a demo? May 25 17:02:36 I'll give you a binary May 25 17:02:54 I can show you an uTorrent with several new options everything done in assembler. May 25 17:03:08 and actually the original uTorrent executable was encrypted. May 25 17:03:13 find me where it reads a .lyc file and tell me what it does with it May 25 17:03:21 hah, encrypted May 25 17:03:23 you NEVER recompile and executable you want to modify May 25 17:03:35 NEVER May 25 17:03:51 you patch it in assembler, always. May 25 17:04:13 actually introducing the op code in an hex editor, not really "assembling" May 25 17:04:34 patching is easy May 25 17:04:48 figuring out where to patch can be hard May 25 17:04:50 if you have unobfuscated/unencrypted code: yes May 25 17:05:06 you go through 4 levels of factories and vtables May 25 17:05:12 the problem comes when the executables are encrypted May 25 17:05:18 without a decompiler to help you May 25 17:05:25 encryption is a minor annoyance May 25 17:05:41 as they always need to be decrypted by something to work May 25 17:06:02 same for unpackers May 25 17:07:09 but if you need C code May 25 17:07:18 then there must be something wrong in you May 25 17:07:24 reading assembler is more than enough if you're a real cracked May 25 17:07:26 cracker May 25 17:07:58 no it isn't May 25 17:08:12 it's actually trivial to screw with you May 25 17:08:52 a few characters of C code can generate more than a hundred instructions with -O3 May 25 17:09:03 do you really think the people that are patching games and software for PC everyday are using decompilers? May 25 17:09:12 mix in some real operations in there and you'll need a blackboard May 25 17:09:15 because they aren't. May 25 17:09:30 they're using shitty stuff like hexrays and they're miserable May 25 17:09:40 they don't use hexrays. May 25 17:09:46 they don't even use IDA if it's x86. May 25 17:09:51 they use something called ollydbg May 25 17:10:13 lol that older PoS May 25 17:10:26 still unbeatable in Windows :) May 25 17:10:28 not even by IDA May 25 17:10:40 I reverse engineered the Battle.Net2 protocol in one day with IDA May 25 17:10:46 found out how much it sucks May 25 17:11:25 and I know a community of real reverse engineers, I know for sure there's a need for a real decompiler May 25 17:11:34 I don't think so. May 25 17:11:53 unless it's a higher level language like .NET or Java but there are already way too many decompilers for that. May 25 17:12:52 why am I even talking to you... May 25 17:13:26 ollydbg is a debugger, but not a full flow analyzing disassembler May 25 17:13:29 because of people like you, we don't have tools May 25 17:13:30 different tools,different purpose May 25 17:13:49 true May 25 17:13:54 eddyb9, we don't need them May 25 17:13:57 used ollydbg a lot even for open source May 25 17:14:03 because windows' own crash reports suck May 25 17:14:06 that's why they don't exist May 25 17:14:13 you don't need them May 25 17:14:14 but telling people to use ollydbg and make screenshot tends to help May 25 17:14:16 ollydbg is great May 25 17:14:23 and because of statemements like this, we have no calm and productive mood in IRC channels May 25 17:14:26 I still use it May 25 17:14:47 you go ahead and find vulns in chromium. in assembly May 25 17:14:54 why would I? May 25 17:14:59 they won't pay me a single cent for that May 25 17:15:17 then shut up May 25 17:15:30 I don't think you understand how the world works May 25 17:15:33 eddyb9: behave! May 25 17:15:42 if there's a need -> then became the solution, not backwards May 25 17:15:43 also, I doubt a good decompiler for modern compiled C will ever exist May 25 17:15:49 but if anyone wants to try, I won't stop them May 25 17:15:59 divVerent, it's not possible is the first thing I said May 25 17:16:06 it may be POSSIBLE May 25 17:16:15 brute force any possible C files, compile with all possible flags, compare :) May 25 17:16:26 divVerent: I'm not talking "I want source code" decompilation May 25 17:16:27 31<Sc0rpius>30 all decompilers will be crap specially for things like C, C++ May 25 17:16:38 I'm talking practical decompilation May 25 17:16:39 but current C/C++ compilers do so crazy optimizations May 25 17:16:45 you would have like a library of all compilers behaviors somehow coded in your decompiler. May 25 17:16:46 it's near impossible to get back to even similar source May 25 17:16:56 most of the optimizations are easy to revert May 25 17:16:58 but if anyone succeeds, it'd be very interesting May 25 17:17:06 yeah May 25 17:17:09 and that's why I insist: May 25 17:17:15 good luck with that May 25 17:17:36 but now swaying there's a NEED for a C/C++ decompiler... that's wrong. May 25 17:17:55 actually May 25 17:18:02 there is more need of a nice annotating disassembler May 25 17:18:06 that not just does what IDA does May 25 17:18:08 I agree May 25 17:18:13 but also shows explanations of obscure instructions May 25 17:18:22 basically IDA + google May 25 17:18:25 saying there's a need of a C/C++ decompiler only shows lack of experience in assembly, that's all. May 25 17:18:31 academics and people who do RE for a living agree with me May 25 17:18:36 get more experience, practice more, read more. Buy books. May 25 17:18:44 divVerent: I already have something much better than that May 25 17:18:52 Sc0rpius: but a human can fail May 25 17:19:02 the decompiler will fail more :) May 25 17:19:23 ISAs are quite complex, and malware writers abuse this a lot May 25 17:20:07 the decompiler won't fail May 25 17:20:32 ISA? May 25 17:20:41 instruction set architecture May 25 17:20:43 ic May 25 17:22:27 IDA (and disassemblers in general) can't even tell you if a function ever returns May 25 17:22:45 or where it can return May 25 17:22:57 *nod* May 25 17:23:02 So Live-Debugging is to prefer. May 25 17:23:15 But IDA does have a Debugger integrated also since quite some Time. May 25 17:23:17 but you can't debug everything May 25 17:23:20 True. May 25 17:23:20 well back to Yappari, which by the way was created reversing official WhatsApp clients. May 25 17:23:24 so bbl May 25 17:23:54 you can do so many things with executable code May 25 17:24:09 it's just silly to throw away the potential May 25 17:24:28 a free, open-source, decompiler May 25 17:24:39 not perfect, but correct May 25 17:25:23 with a clean, easy to interact with, interface May 25 17:26:07 if only I wasn't this big fuckup that never gets anything done May 25 17:26:43 and I may fail this year of highschool because geography (geopolitic crap, mostly) May 25 17:31:43 You know what we need a LOT MORE than a C decompiler? May 25 17:31:50 a C binary vs source code comparer :) May 25 17:31:59 to see if gcc screwed up again May 25 17:33:10 haha, a "not perfect, but correct" decompiler is also known as disassembler... just change every "mov a, b" into "a = b;" May 25 17:34:03 B-) May 25 17:34:13 I love Assembly. May 25 17:34:47 in fact, for QuakeC I wanted to make such a thing... I already have a binary analyzer that does quite some static analysis, detect unused/uninitialized values, etc. May 25 17:35:04 and it prints out QCVM assembly... I did want to write a second output that transforms the instruction 1:1 into QC May 25 17:35:39 so the analyzer is also useful to people who don't want to learn in which argument order STORE_F works :) May 25 17:36:56 so you want a translator May 25 17:37:05 and that would be cool if it's multiprocessor May 25 17:37:21 that is translate assembly code from several processors to a standard "more human readable" code May 25 17:37:23 not necessary C May 25 17:37:24 the main issue why people want a decompiler is that Intel assembly got so convoluted May 25 17:37:28 something more easily to understand May 25 17:37:32 especially the MMX/SSE instructions can get quite obscure May 25 17:37:32 that would be nice May 25 17:37:52 you define a standard "assembly" code human readable with things like "a = b" and stuff May 25 17:38:06 and then you make translators for x86, ARM, etc to THAT standard human code you just defined May 25 17:38:13 that's a very good idea May 25 17:38:21 even better if it has some heuristics to read SSE code, e.g. notices dot products and matrix multiplications May 25 17:38:34 of course it will not be a 1 instruction = 1 line of code May 25 17:38:49 but something like 10 MMX instructions = 1 line of simple human readable math code May 25 17:39:29 that's a very good idea May 25 17:39:42 even 1:1 would work May 25 17:40:12 yeah but simple loops would be nice to be read as "fors" and "whiles" and the like May 25 17:41:11 I love QEMU May 25 17:41:22 Emulators in general May 25 17:41:25 DosBox rules too May 25 17:42:34 these very lines I'm typing are being sent through an X-Chat running on a VMWare VM with Ubuntu 12.04.01 full screen in the second monitor of a Windows 8 host May 25 17:42:50 * Sc0rpius runs both worlds at the same time May 25 17:45:50 I type inside a UserModeLinux-VM May 25 17:48:09 even 1:1 would work May 25 17:48:13 sorry May 25 17:50:41 divVerent: ooh! "a = b" is not assembler? May 25 17:50:50 Well, maybe not ARM assembler May 25 17:51:19 Sc0rpius: neat idea May 25 17:51:21 we could call it C May 25 17:53:46 DocScrutinizer05: look at id software's quake code May 25 17:53:54 their compiler was so buggy, theybasiclaly wrote in C-like assembler May 25 17:53:59 only one operation in each line May 25 17:57:14 https://github.com/RobSis/quake-portal-gun/blob/master/src/weapons.qc#L420 just look at this function May 25 17:57:50 and observe two bugs right at the top (the normalize() call is a bug too, as QuakeC has no pass by reference) May 25 18:17:54 DocScrutinizer05: probably list of all changed files: http://paste.debian.net/6528/ May 25 18:18:10 I don't see anything autodisconnect related here yet May 25 18:18:31 but some things are weird May 25 18:18:34 I would really see promoting to extras-testing work :( May 25 19:16:16 [techstaff notice] we're cleaning up a huuuuge db table, and that blocks www.m.o and possibly other services too. Sorry for the inconventience May 25 19:17:09 (if you're interested: purging 25mio records from repligard table, keeping 9mio) May 25 19:37:55 [techstaff notice] the sql commands been too mighty, blocking our db for undefined extended periods of time. So we aborted the job and will restart it later when we found a way to "renice" it May 25 22:05:50 hello everyone May 25 22:06:14 anyone there? May 25 22:08:37 no May 25 22:08:43 :D May 25 22:08:50 hi May 25 22:09:21 what's this chat for? Maemo suggestions or just talking? May 25 22:09:27 good morning (UGT) May 25 22:09:46 this is the general maemo chat here May 25 22:10:15 axcept maemo6 aka meego-harmattan which is a tiny bit OT here May 25 22:10:45 I'm a new Maemo user and I have to meet its community May 25 22:10:57 you alread met it ;-) May 25 22:11:07 just to see how alive it still is you know May 25 22:11:26 well, we still no zombies May 25 22:11:51 as a N900 owner may I be interested in harmattan too? Is it going to work on older devices as well? May 25 22:11:59 and I heard over at tmo there are still a few 1000 posts per day May 25 22:12:16 nope, harmattan only works on N9 May 25 22:12:24 (and N950) May 25 22:12:30 mmm... a pity May 25 22:13:02 you hardly find many users here that would swap fremantle for harmattan on their N900 May 25 22:13:49 those who love harmattan got a N9 to use it May 25 22:14:08 I guess that even though maemo5 may become a little outdated my N900 is still a great device and I'd endorse it with another OS rather than switching to N9 May 25 22:14:12 since it's useless anyway on a device that can't do swipe properly May 25 22:14:40 ever heard of cssu? May 25 22:14:58 heard of yeah, haven't looked into it yet May 25 22:15:04 ~cssu May 25 22:15:04 [cssu] http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU May 25 22:15:14 you maybe should do that May 25 22:15:15 I've had my phone for like.. three days :) May 25 22:15:51 ooh, then just enjoy it for now, and stay away from any weird stuff that promises to optimize anything in maemo for you May 25 22:16:21 I bought a used phone just to feel comfortable tampering with it :D May 25 22:16:33 fremantle is absolutely optimal as is. Not much you'd want to boost or fix in it May 25 22:17:00 you however should flash it to a factory state May 25 22:17:03 ~flash May 25 22:17:03 i guess maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware May 25 22:17:12 I actually find it very hard that Onion button has been developed but no way to encrypt pidgin has instead.. May 25 22:17:29 oh thanks, that would be great.. May 25 22:17:35 since... you never know what last owner did to the device and particularly to the software/system on it May 25 22:18:16 ~pr131 May 25 22:18:17 i heard combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin May 25 22:19:00 and May 25 22:19:05 ~tabletsdev May 25 22:19:06 rumour has it, tabletsdev is http://repository.maemo.org/tabletsdev/ May 25 22:19:59 ~tabletsdev is also http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev May 25 22:19:59 okay, DocScrutinizer05 May 25 22:20:22 mmmm... a lot to know May 25 22:20:31 ~tablets-dev is see tabletsdev May 25 22:20:31 okay, DocScrutinizer05 May 25 22:20:40 I'm going to flash it I guess May 25 22:20:53 I actually would like to get to know it and its terminal first May 25 22:21:00 sure May 25 22:21:26 start with getting http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin and flasher-3.5 from tabletsdev May 25 22:21:38 I'm trying all the linux commands I know and they don't work.. I guess I need some documentation over it May 25 22:22:03 ok, I'll download it now and store till I make up my mind May 25 22:22:04 then follow instructions on http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, which you should read completely twice, before starting May 25 22:22:27 mmm.. risky? May 25 22:22:28 in the end usually flashing is mere fun May 25 22:22:33 no risk at all May 25 22:22:39 you always can recover May 25 22:22:48 N900 is basically unbrickable May 25 22:22:58 which is awesome May 25 22:23:25 I have to dig into encryption tools developed for Maemo5, any heads-up? May 25 22:23:26 just make sure you never forget your towel, err to charge your battery May 25 22:24:01 full loaded battery of course May 25 22:24:15 yeah, double check that May 25 22:24:39 since sometimes N900 doesn't charge when you messed up something in software May 25 22:25:12 I noticed! That's so damn strange of a phone.. May 25 22:25:17 which is quite unfortunate since with depleted battery you can't fix the software, and without proper software you can't charge the battery May 25 22:25:25 never seen anything like that before May 25 22:26:26 well, probably almost all phones work in a similar way. Just on other phones you hardly can mess up the software ;-) May 25 22:26:41 I really believed the battery was there waiting to get filled by electric power as a mere energy container... May 25 22:26:48 indeed :D May 25 22:27:37 what are your favorite apps? May 25 22:27:42 anyway, welcome! May 25 22:27:49 thanks a lot May 25 22:27:52 I'm afk for some TV now# May 25 22:28:07 but this channel is worth staying May 25 22:28:12 for you ;-) May 25 22:28:29 lots of nice helpful people here May 25 22:28:33 ok! bye May 25 22:28:37 thanks for your help May 25 22:40:59 ooh, and take care about your USB, it's flimsy May 25 22:41:38 you should tread it like it was made of thin glass May 25 22:41:44 treat* May 25 22:51:47 yeah, I read so... I'm trying to be as careful as possible May 25 23:07:11 anyone there? May 25 23:25:29 still 224, incl you May 25 23:27:12 hey, do I know you from some other chan or other nick, or do you use a client that has user name "New Now Know How" per default? May 25 23:27:37 ooh, chatzilla May 25 23:28:00 whatever that is May 25 23:32:39 yes May 25 23:33:12 maybe you're into drupal? May 25 23:39:25 is it possible to have a program developed for linux run on your maemo5? May 25 23:40:17 GogoPogo: as long as it's linked to glibc, and built for ARM, why not May 25 23:41:26 well.. that would require much better skills than I currently do anyway May 25 23:41:42 GogoPogo: search for Easy Debian May 25 23:42:00 actually commandline programs usually compile right away in scratchbox May 25 23:42:16 most of them May 25 23:42:33 I'm looking up Easy Debian May 25 23:42:52 Doc, source code would be enough ? May 25 23:43:03 except such special stuff like.... cron, xev maybe, rtcwake for sure May 25 23:43:16 GogoPogo: yes May 25 23:43:31 don't forget dependencies ;) May 25 23:44:00 there's a whole lot of nice stuff in tools repo May 25 23:44:22 like strace May 25 23:44:41 and whatnot else May 25 23:45:05 I'm better off showing you what I'd like to run maybe May 25 23:45:24 http://www.cypherpunks.ca/otr/ as a Pidgin plugin May 25 23:45:43 I can't understand if it is feasible May 25 23:46:57 http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5 May 25 23:47:09 you can download source code and library.... May 25 23:47:31 I think somebody asked about otr some months ago in here May 25 23:49:09 it would be so cool.. I use it with my contacts, among PCs and portable devices as well May 25 23:50:05 I faintly seem to recall sth about onion and tor May 25 23:50:13 yeah! May 25 23:50:19 I already used it, it's great May 25 23:50:24 just a little outdated May 25 23:50:26 GogoPogo: your friends use OTR? May 25 23:50:31 yes May 25 23:50:48 man, sigh, people at uni are switching to the new hotness, WeChat May 25 23:51:11 WeChat, never heard of it :\ May 25 23:51:11 https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-04-01.log.html#t2013-04-01T18:16:33 May 25 23:51:37 GogoPogo: IM client owned by Tencent, which I'm 99.9999% sure is a Chinese backdoor May 25 23:53:12 oh... that's disgusting May 25 23:53:37 http://maemo.org/packages/view/pidgin-otr/ May 25 23:53:45 WeChat is a chinese thing May 25 23:53:59 I really need to learn my way to this community and its resources May 25 23:54:03 isn't WeChat extremely popular in China? May 25 23:54:03 http://maemo.org/packages/search/?org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bproperty%5D=name&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B1%5D%5Bvalue%5D=otr&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bproperty%5D=title&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bconstraint%5D=LIKE&org_maemo_packages_search%5B2%5D%5Bvalue%5D=same sorry no shorter URL May 25 23:54:36 I swear I had searched the website for it May 25 23:54:39 Sc0rpius: Tencent owns QQ, which is /the/ IM client in China May 25 23:54:49 I see May 25 23:55:04 this however is shorter http://maemo.org/packages/view/pidgin-otr/ May 25 23:55:07 not quite sure about WeChat, but it looks like it's targeted at more international users May 25 23:55:26 russian people us jabber a lot May 25 23:55:50 but few encrypt their convos May 25 23:55:57 GogoPogo: you still want to compile it from scratch? May 25 23:56:26 Doc, even if I was able to do such a thing I wouldn't be so silly :D May 25 23:57:15 I'm trying to understand how to get it May 25 23:57:29 i'll try through terminal May 25 23:57:48 GogoPogo: have you installed rootsh? May 25 23:58:06 not yet .. do I need it ? May 25 23:58:34 I usually use "sudo gainroot" May 25 23:58:44 oh, that works well enough, then May 25 23:59:00 next, have you activated extras-revel? May 25 23:59:06 I still fear it doesn't gain root though... May 25 23:59:06 *devel May 25 23:59:26 are they the maemo.org app repositories? May 26 00:00:03 they're extra app repositories, because apparently pidgin-otr hasn't been promoted to testing or Stable yet May 26 00:00:12 http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel#How_to_activate_Extras-devel May 26 00:01:09 thank you very much! May 26 00:01:27 get rootsh! May 26 00:01:30 I need I'll have to install rootsh because I get some permission denied errors.. May 26 00:01:36 you won't be root without May 26 00:01:43 I think* May 26 00:01:46 ok May 26 00:01:53 (unless you sue ssh to login as root to localhost) May 26 00:02:47 the ssh thing sounds sooo great May 26 00:02:54 but honestly you shouldn't use apt-get unless you understood how HAM works May 26 00:04:13 when you're already in HAM to install rootsh, why not edit catalogs to get extras-devel (or click on one of the extras-devel installfiles) and then install pigin-tor via HAM May 26 00:04:37 what do you mean by ham? May 26 00:04:46 and while you're at it, you probably could install ssh (server and client) as well May 26 00:04:56 Holdon Application manager May 26 00:05:13 the gui app manager? May 26 00:07:16 yes May 26 00:07:34 navigate to: May 26 00:07:37 ~jrtools May 26 00:07:39 extra, extra, read all about it, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools May 26 00:07:39 well.. I guess I figured it out.. but I'll make sure I did May 26 00:07:48 with N900 browser May 26 00:08:12 you'll find a link that you can click to install extras-devel and tools repo May 26 00:09:03 this is the link you should click: http://joerg.cloud-7.de/repositories.install May 26 00:09:26 read the warning and instructions May 26 00:09:41 in HAM go to menu->catalogs May 26 00:10:03 enable extras-devel catalog, disable the other two catalogs May 26 00:10:28 manual add doesn't work, I'll try with the link May 26 00:10:30 wait for update finishing, then search for pidgin-otr May 26 00:11:06 does godaddy.com check ssl certificates of the default browser? May 26 00:11:28 GogoPogo: all the certs should still be valid May 26 00:12:10 IIRC there was an update issued some time ago to update the revocation list, but SSL just plain works on every site I've been on May 26 00:13:03 godaddy.com might be different, using an individual client-side cert to authenticate user May 26 00:13:17 startssl.com does May 26 00:13:26 I just wonder why any time I surf to starpage.com I get "Godaddy approved this website" May 26 00:13:28 ah, in that case, just add it to the cert store if it's self-signed May 26 00:13:50 GogoPogo: that means that GoDaddy is the CA for that website May 26 00:14:01 startpage.com* May 26 00:14:06 ok great May 26 00:14:47 so SSL is fully working. Absolutely fabolous. May 26 00:14:49 or, in natrual language: godaddy issued the SSL cert of startpage.com May 26 00:15:48 ok, I guess godaddy can be trusted May 26 00:15:50 :) May 26 00:15:51 in a fullsize browser, you can watch details of the cert by clicking on the SSL icon in URL box or wherever your browser shows it May 26 00:16:24 might look like a padlock, or a key or sth May 26 00:16:54 can you understand something out of it? I remember having to add manually some of them for my vpn May 26 00:17:11 GogoPogo: if certs have to be manually added, it's usually self-signed May 26 00:17:18 yes, vpn needs some certs usually May 26 00:17:50 you don't want to know details right now May 26 00:17:57 ;-) May 26 00:18:23 I was pleasently surprised by finding OpenVPN inside HAM :) May 26 00:18:28 rather make sure your HAM can install pidgin-otr May 26 00:18:46 yes I am, it is still updating the catalogue May 26 00:18:52 yeah, there's aplethora of packages available in HAM May 26 00:19:20 that takes an annoying long time, but you are not doing that every day, so just be patient May 26 00:19:34 might take 7 minutes May 26 00:19:56 but eventually it actually finishes ;-) May 26 00:19:57 I swear, the maemo.org repos are filled with almost every Linux desktop program you can think of. May 26 00:20:21 that's more than great May 26 00:20:38 IIRC, there is Mono Develop, Prolog, Java,... May 26 00:20:47 a mobile with all this stuff is above any of my expectations May 26 00:21:12 I installed flash player 11 but it is pretty slow, same to you? May 26 00:21:19 that's a palmtop PC May 26 00:21:24 yeah, it is a bit of an exception though May 26 00:21:30 youtube as well? May 26 00:21:30 which happens to have a phone built in May 26 00:21:34 GogoPogo: Flash is /slow/ on the N900 May 26 00:21:47 most other devices/platforms don't even have package management with dependency support May 26 00:21:49 it turns the phone into a pocket warmer. May 26 00:22:17 too bad it's still found around the web May 26 00:22:25 pretty often May 26 00:22:51 well, not /that/ often anymore May 26 00:23:01 newer websites have dropped flash completely for layouts May 26 00:23:11 I know that May 26 00:23:18 apple rules the market you know May 26 00:23:36 thank digital Deity May 26 00:23:54 flash navigation my ass May 26 00:23:55 yup, that was one good thing that came out of Apple's tight-fisted iOS policy May 26 00:24:26 never seen anything more stupid than that May 26 00:24:51 well.. I don't know... Adobe is a corporation that many developers always depended on and it's never a good thing but now well.. it's just Apple's turn.. May 26 00:24:52 flash is poor enough a 'solution' for video playback etc May 26 00:25:35 but to abuse it for shit like navigation menues etc is plain braindamaged May 26 00:25:47 yeah it is May 26 00:25:54 uberleete web-"programmers" May 26 00:25:59 btw now you can achieve most magic with css :) May 26 00:27:59 once you're in HAM anyway, you should get openssh (client & server), simple brightness applet, cpu load applet, GSM 2G/3G switcher May 26 00:28:12 rootsh of course May 26 00:29:15 I guess it got stuck May 26 00:29:27 no May 26 00:29:35 it just takes eternities May 26 00:29:45 stay patient May 26 00:31:12 I hope you disabled the test repo! May 26 00:31:21 :D nope May 26 00:31:34 it's absolutely useless when you have devel repo eneabled May 26 00:31:44 and it takes twice as long May 26 00:32:09 yuppie! May 26 00:33:25 honestly, you should actually *delete* test repo from your catalogs list May 26 00:33:46 ok I'll restart it and avoid it May 26 00:33:55 (and I should delete it from that install file9 May 26 00:33:59 ) May 26 00:35:03 ohmy 10-Oct-2010 May 26 00:35:50 memories :) May 26 00:36:06 this whole jrtools page been originally meant for my personal use only May 26 00:36:38 incl the repositories.install May 26 00:38:41 ooh, add notmynokia to the list of stuff to install right away May 26 00:38:57 it's definitely going to take forever! May 26 00:39:16 notmynokia, sounds interesting May 26 00:39:20 it takes 7 minutes with extras-devel only May 26 00:39:31 ~mynokia May 26 00:39:31 from memory, mynokia is a digital robbery courtesy Nokia, or http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription, or https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10366 May 26 00:39:33 04Bug 10366: MyNokia SMS sent after update without any action from the user May 26 00:39:44 GogoPogo: most magic with CSS? May 26 00:39:51 CSS3 is the magic ;) May 26 00:40:10 shape transforms, motion, and with JS, interactivity May 26 00:40:28 indeed :D May 26 00:40:34 I made a POC window manager once just to learn all the new tricks May 26 00:40:47 poc? May 26 00:40:53 GogoPogo: you can abort it and edit the catalog even when the current update not yet finished May 26 00:40:59 Proof of concept WM, made in HTML5+CSS3+JS May 26 00:41:15 I still need to find a good manual to study it thouroughly May 26 00:41:22 if nothing else works, close HAM and restart it May 26 00:41:42 still faster than waiting 15min for a useless update to finsih May 26 00:42:19 after closing HAM there's a 60s contemplation&chillout time before it can start again May 26 00:42:25 Doc, is it a file I can manually edit through USB connection? May 26 00:42:43 which one? May 26 00:42:51 the notmynokia? May 26 00:42:54 the catalogues May 26 00:43:15 I can't stand waiting now May 26 00:43:18 no, you shouldn't edit catalogs in file anyway, even if you could May 26 00:43:25 which you can't via USB May 26 00:43:29 rikanee it would be awesome to see :) May 26 00:43:42 why not anyway? May 26 00:43:54 why I can't via USB? May 26 00:44:14 because HAM has a special unexpected way to handle the catalogs May 26 00:44:20 GogoPogo: HAM is like a girlfriend on her period. May 26 00:44:25 let's just put it that way. May 26 00:44:30 and via USB you only have access to MyDocs May 26 00:44:37 not to your home dir May 26 00:45:04 oh... but I could dpkg a file without including the path in the terminal, like it was in root.. May 26 00:45:12 or maybe I didn't :D May 26 00:45:36 I did because... it worked after that May 26 00:45:43 GogoPogo: if you'd like to edit files from the comfort of a large screen, you can install a FTP or SCP server May 26 00:46:11 ooh btw you fist should FLASH A CLEAN SYSTEM May 26 00:46:39 rikanee that's one hell of a tip! :) May 26 00:46:45 never used SCP before May 26 00:46:57 since you impossibly could have installed anything on terminal via dpkg or apt-get if that was a clean system without rootsh installed May 26 00:47:00 doc I'll learn my way to the system first and then I will surely flash it May 26 00:47:22 oh i see! May 26 00:47:44 BTW, you might as well do a backupmenu snapshot :) May 26 00:47:54 :D May 26 00:49:40 rikanee: is your POC online ? :) May 26 00:49:47 GogoPogo: reflash, install ssh, enter "sftp://root@n900-IP" into your linux browser (konqueror?) - profit! May 26 00:50:07 GogoPogo: nah, I don't have a web server, I'll see if I can throw a zip somewhere. May 26 00:50:21 brb, scrounging around my Dropbox for it May 26 00:50:23 browse files like they were on your desktop, open them for editing in kwrite, copy them May 26 00:51:05 that would be very comfortable, thanks May 26 00:51:08 I'll note it down May 26 00:51:42 I sometimes even forget i'm actually on my phone, when I work on it from my desktop PC May 26 00:52:01 remote shell, remote filebrowser, remote editing, whatever you like May 26 00:52:40 I pull files directly from the n900 window into the cloud-7.de window, bith sftp:// May 26 00:52:44 both* May 26 00:53:16 clear May 26 00:53:19 then I wonder why it takes a bit longer than usual local copy ;-P May 26 00:53:22 m/t May 26 00:53:26 how does the cloud-7.de work or what is that for? May 26 00:54:16 http://maemo.cloud-7.de May 26 00:54:48 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo May 26 00:55:11 http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5 actually May 26 00:55:18 who has the right to upload there? May 26 00:56:21 tomorrow I'll signup to the forum May 26 00:56:23 me May 26 00:57:17 it found 12 updates to my software.. I guess it finished!! FINALLY May 26 00:57:40 don't install the updates! May 26 00:58:08 didn't, just skipped for the moment May 26 00:58:14 yes, good May 26 00:58:59 oh good... pidgin-otr is there. I'm almost crying May 26 00:59:13 now search for ssh, pidgin-t*rmpgdsd, notmynokia, simple brightness applet, load applet May 26 00:59:18 and install them May 26 00:59:33 sure :) May 26 00:59:42 searching is done by typing on kbd May 26 00:59:49 in category all May 26 01:00:07 I noticed, that's the only way to find your way in such a huge list May 26 01:01:29 after you're done, DISABLE extras-devel catalog again May 26 01:01:57 really? why? Nothing useful apart from the listed above? May 26 01:02:05 which as a side effect reduces wait time to 1.30 May 26 01:02:47 nah, you just don't want it enabled all the time and have those updates from extras-devel pop up every day May 26 01:03:17 I see May 26 01:03:27 you shouldn't accept updates for arbitrary stuff coming from extras-devel May 26 01:03:57 form -devel you pick the packages you want, then disable it again May 26 01:04:17 pidgin-otr doesn't seem to work :( but I'll try out different clients tomorrow May 26 01:04:28 ok, I'll go for the ones you mentioned now May 26 01:04:41 if you want to install an update for a package you already got from extras-devel, you do that manually May 26 01:05:18 apt-get? May 26 01:05:27 you're free to pick others you find interesting, but I wouldb't install too many on a single day. You won't know which one caused what when you do May 26 01:06:12 nah, not apt-get, enable extras-devel and install the new version then diable again May 26 01:06:28 ok! May 26 01:06:50 you may use apt-get once you understood how HAM works May 26 01:07:00 and what the different repos are for May 26 01:07:09 dropbear SSH Client and Server? or SCP? May 26 01:07:20 and particularly what commands in apt you never must use May 26 01:07:28 neither May 26 01:07:32 openssh May 26 01:07:59 dropbear is kinda... limited May 26 01:08:20 again, client and server? May 26 01:08:24 yep May 26 01:08:51 it will ask you for a new password to set on root account, iirc May 26 01:09:01 I never set one :\ May 26 01:09:07 NEW May 26 01:09:23 yeah I know, I mean, I haven't set one yet May 26 01:09:31 since I've had this phone May 26 01:09:35 that's why it does that for you May 26 01:10:04 ok May 26 01:10:12 since otherwise, how would you log in? May 26 01:10:50 yeah you're right :D LOL May 26 01:10:59 ooh would you do me a favour? May 26 01:11:03 sure May 26 01:11:11 in xterm type: May 26 01:11:13 id May 26 01:11:21 and tell me what it answered May 26 01:11:54 uid=29999(user) gid=29999(user) May 26 01:11:59 :nod: May 26 01:12:03 not type May 26 01:12:07 sudo gainroot May 26 01:12:12 and then id again May 26 01:12:20 now* type... May 26 01:12:43 uid=0(root) gid=0(root) May 26 01:12:46 \m/ May 26 01:12:53 now please type May 26 01:13:02 apt-get policy rootsh May 26 01:13:14 and tell me if it found something May 26 01:13:33 hold on May 26 01:13:43 err May 26 01:13:44 sorry May 26 01:13:54 apt-cache policy rootsh May 26 01:14:18 "sudo apt-get policy rootsh" gives me an error May 26 01:14:24 sure May 26 01:14:25 I'll try the latter May 26 01:14:28 why sudo? May 26 01:14:41 I didn't say sudo May 26 01:14:56 you're uid=0(root) gid=0(root), no? May 26 01:14:59 ;-) May 26 01:15:27 yeah sorry.. I wanted to make sure I was superuser ;) May 26 01:15:39 yeah it found 1.8 May 26 01:15:51 see, that's why you should reflash May 26 01:16:08 what does that mean? May 26 01:16:12 you inherited a system that got already tampered with May 26 01:16:27 somebody installed rootsh May 26 01:16:29 sh*t :) May 26 01:16:53 (if apt-cache policy said "installed: 1.8") May 26 01:17:18 (it's normal when it says "available: 1.8") May 26 01:17:52 installed: 1.8, cadidate: 1.8 May 26 01:18:01 :nod: May 26 01:18:14 ok :\ May 26 01:18:24 I will flash it May 26 01:18:52 yeah, you should do that. If only to have the genuine fresh maemo feeling May 26 01:18:57 I will backup the address book and the calendar first May 26 01:19:03 I see :) May 26 01:19:05 good idea May 26 01:19:41 the built in backup app is doing a great job for that May 26 01:19:50 thanks for the tip May 26 01:20:21 I don't know where you are from guys but it's late here, I'm going to bed May 26 01:20:36 it was so useful and nice to talk to you May 26 01:20:52 you should do a complete backup of your files in "MyDocs" via USB May 26 01:21:29 since a complete flash would ^H *will* delete your data there, and backup app doesn't backup that May 26 01:21:51 rather the backups will live there - if you haven't stored them to a uSD May 26 01:22:21 oh I see, you're right May 26 01:22:26 ok May 26 01:22:30 yeah, come back tomorrow and start your flashing experience May 26 01:22:37 thanks for your help :) May 26 01:22:44 yw May 26 01:22:56 DocScrutinizer05, do you fancy those Jolla phones or not yet? May 26 01:22:57 my N900 will be reborn May 26 01:23:04 bye bye May 26 01:23:13 fancy? May 26 01:23:22 yeah are you interested? do you like them? May 26 01:23:23 please rephrase May 26 01:23:26 aah May 26 01:23:43 i'm still in the process to make up my mind May 26 01:23:52 for now I hate their marketing May 26 01:25:09 I'm interested but can't get over that marketing that sells "the other half" like it was best thing since sliced bread, but doesn't give a single hint what that thing actually is May 26 01:26:08 I thought it was like something you put like a cover but it mods the phone somehow May 26 01:26:13 there have been several such promos in the last 2 decades, like spreading May 26 01:26:17 the external keyboard looks like will be like that May 26 01:26:31 "drftlbaz! the best, you want it!" May 26 01:26:36 everywhere May 26 01:26:47 so you hear it every 5 seconds May 26 01:26:58 but NFC what it actually is May 26 01:27:22 until 6 weeks later you find drftlbaz candybar at your gas station May 26 01:27:29 heh May 26 01:27:54 and I hated every single one of them May 26 01:28:52 Sc0rpius: electrical contacts for expansion options would be all I'd need. May 26 01:29:20 last popular one been "evonincs" May 26 01:29:33 Evonics actually, iirc May 26 01:30:21 "Evonics! We invent the future" everywhere, on the house walls, in TV, everywhere, for 8 weeks May 26 01:30:43 just that May 26 01:30:56 no friggin hint what evonics actually is May 26 01:31:34 sorry, EVONIK May 26 01:31:40 I didn't know BB10 run Android apps :/ May 26 01:31:58 so now every OS has a Dalvik VM as an app. May 26 01:33:58 Sc0rpius: "Write once, run everywhere" May 26 01:34:02 :/ May 26 01:34:16 haha May 26 01:34:51 Jolla also confirmed SailfishOS would execute Android apps May 26 01:35:00 so this is the new trend May 26 01:45:47 at least on BB10 it doesn't work that well May 26 01:46:07 also it is currently based on Android 2.1(or 2.3 ?) API level May 26 01:46:16 well, I'm all for 10 thousand fart apps running under dalvik. For those who need such stuff. As long as that dalvik engine runs on a proper linux May 26 01:46:22 but many API are actually not available May 26 01:47:22 also, there are rumors that the preloaded Android runtime (+ Cascades and that Air stuff and maybe that Webworks something) eat all RAM causing the 8 multitasking app limit :) May 26 01:48:20 M4rtinK: I wouldn't be surprised, really May 26 01:48:22 the problem with Android is, you really need tens of thousands of apps May 26 01:48:27 as most of them are so bad May 26 01:49:26 you need a large number of them to get a few good ones (gaussian curve in action :)) May 26 01:49:29 M4rtinK: meh, I guess when you're a tiny player in the mobile market you can't really count on app devs to bother to make a native version May 26 01:50:27 even the recently sort-of released Skype application for BB10 is an Android port and reportedly it is ultra awful :) May 26 01:51:13 but yeah, for some niche service frontends it could be better than nothing May 26 01:52:33 but could have also the opposite effect - people might not make a fully functional native application if there is a sort-of functioning one converted from Android May 26 01:52:49 mmm. May 26 01:53:24 fwiw, Magenta already runs iOS binaries flawlessly [*] May 26 01:53:47 on the other hand - why should applications not run on multiple platforms ? :) May 26 01:54:24 thats also my goal, to make my apps run on everything, while minimizing platform dependent code May 26 01:54:29 (except that Apple "extended" the OpenGL ES API on iOS, and as such breaks when run on Linux+Magenta.) May 26 01:55:07 but in contrast to just running apps from other platform, my stuff is written to be multi platform May 26 01:55:44 but if you run stuff tragetting Android & iOS, it might expect functionality that is not there, breaking things or not working at all May 26 01:55:57 M4rtinK: well, someone still has to port the runtime ;) May 26 01:55:58 rikanee: not much of a surprise :) May 26 01:56:25 rikanee: yeah, but only ones - that's the nice thing :) May 26 01:57:21 *once May 26 01:59:06 that's the nice thing on Python May 26 01:59:22 you just need to compile it for a platform once May 26 02:00:15 and then your (any anybody elses) Python apps will work on the platform May 26 02:00:39 without the usual cross-compilation fun & games :) May 26 02:05:27 anyway, good night everyone ! :) May 26 02:05:33 or morning :) May 26 02:05:41 M4rtinK: you know fso 1 been python May 26 02:05:52 and fso2 been rewritten in vala May 26 02:06:36 yeah, I remember their slogan: May 26 02:06:42 "killing the snake" :) May 26 02:07:13 and I agree May 26 02:07:24 Vala. May 26 02:07:28 Wow. May 26 02:07:35 Were any GNOME devs involved? May 26 02:07:40 FSO is quite performance critical, tripple so on the FreeRunner May 26 02:07:49 indeed May 26 02:08:11 but I haven't had performance issues with Python when writing apps in it May 26 02:08:21 is the Freerunner really that underpowered? May 26 02:08:35 quite May 26 02:08:45 you are basically just gluing a bunch of C libs together anyway :) May 26 02:09:18 yeah, for sure true for high level stuff May 26 02:09:43 rikanee: but has a higher Python version (2.7) than the N900 (2.5) :) May 26 02:09:53 but low level stuff like irq handlers etc are impossible to write in python May 26 02:10:03 sure May 26 02:10:13 but that is what C is for May 26 02:10:35 that is what mickey used vala for May 26 02:10:53 (well, vala seems a glorified C with some makros) May 26 02:11:51 well, I've heard some complaints about the quality of he C code it generates May 26 02:11:54 aiui it actually creates C "p-code" May 26 02:12:03 but can't judge it as I've never worked with it myself May 26 02:12:39 but I'm using Shtowell (which is written in Valla) and it works just fine May 26 02:12:55 *Shotwell May 26 02:13:39 BTW, I think Gnome devs abandoned Valla haven't they ? May 26 02:14:05 at least I think most of the new Gnome stuff is not written in Valla May 26 02:14:18 and quite a lot of Gnome Shell stuff is using Javascript May 26 02:20:25 and now really good night :) May 26 02:22:38 o/ **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun May 26 02:59:58 2013