**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 11 02:59:58 2013
Jun 11 05:18:35 <tx0h> hello & good morning
Jun 11 05:31:47 <crculver> Does anyone have a script they could share with me to automount an ext3 partition when I insert a microSD card with that filesystem as the second partition?
Jun 11 05:42:13 <tx0h> sorry, i haven't tried microsd yet
Jun 11 05:43:18 <tx0h> i just like to know if there is a way to get the PUK of the sim card, i forgot it :-(
Jun 11 05:53:19 <crculver> tx0h, Why not take your phone to a neighbourhood shop that unlocks phones? 
Jun 11 05:58:35 <tx0h> it's not locked
Jun 11 05:59:55 <tx0h> but i need the puk to cancel a account because my traffic contingent is over and they let me surf with only 64kbit. i can only recharge my account to cancel the old one.
Jun 11 06:01:36 <crculver> tx0h, But those shops might be able to read the PUK with their equipment.
Jun 11 06:17:35 <tx0h> hmm... but is this equipment so much better than a linux OS on the phone?
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 11 06:41:24 2013
Jun 11 08:43:57 <panjgoori> hello everyone. when there will be a update for CSSU-Stable ? last update was on January.
Jun 11 09:15:41 <kerio> panjgoori: whenever there are enough worthy changes, i guess
Jun 11 13:45:16 <rikanee> iOS 7 looks awful, and the design is totally ripped off.
Jun 11 13:45:32 <rikanee> Even hobbyists at Dribbble are doing better than Apple at this.
Jun 11 13:46:34 <rikanee> (side note: the new call answer gesture is swipe up instead of swipe right huehuehuehue)
Jun 11 13:51:49 <kerio> the new ios looks... plasticky
Jun 11 13:51:55 <kerio> but i actually prefer it to the glossy thing
Jun 11 13:55:46 <rikanee> kerio: given the level of fit and finish Apple's known for, iOS just looks plain tacky.
Jun 11 13:55:54 <rikanee> Feels like Windows XP, so to speak.
Jun 11 15:41:10 <Lava_Croft> it feels like windows8
Jun 11 15:41:12 <Lava_Croft> ios7
Jun 11 15:41:29 <Lava_Croft> this weird mutant combination of something new (which looks plain ugly) and something old (which looks plain ugly)
Jun 11 15:51:22 <mad_dev> Lava_Croft: it seem that way, but the multi-tasking feature is new to the IOS family. So maybe there is something to look for.
Jun 11 16:04:59 <Lava_Croft> there is something to look for anyway, games!
Jun 11 16:05:07 <Lava_Croft> im so happy my lover has one
Jun 11 16:13:48 <vi__> Anyone here speak c#?
Jun 11 16:16:16 <vi__> I use the line: motor_drive_current_number = motor_drive_current_number/9.75;
Jun 11 16:16:30 <vi__> a=a/9.75;
Jun 11 16:16:42 <vi__> where a is a 'decimal' data type.
Jun 11 16:16:56 <vi__> I get the error:
Jun 11 16:17:03 <vi__> Error	7	Operator '/' cannot be applied to operands of type 'decimal' and 'double'
Jun 11 16:17:10 <vi__> WTF?
Jun 11 16:18:12 <vi__> I do not understand.
Jun 11 16:18:37 <vi__> Why can I not use a normal mathematical operator on what is essentially a float?
Jun 11 16:19:59 <ecc3g> dunno c# but it might be stronger typed than plain C, what are you trying to do there, can you typecast?
Jun 11 16:20:31 <ecc3g> what is a 'decimal' data type?
Jun 11 16:28:45 <ecc3g> oh. microsoft-ism non ieee "float"...
Jun 11 16:29:35 <freemangordon> vi__: oh, C# :(
Jun 11 16:30:10 <vi__> Well F* me.
Jun 11 16:30:19 <vi__> I asked in the c# room.
Jun 11 16:30:26 <vi__> Got flamed.
Jun 11 16:30:37 <vi__> They have gone back to talking about battlefront.
Jun 11 16:30:56 <vi__> c# can go suck a chubby.
Jun 11 16:31:12 <vi__> it turns out I have to append an 'm'
Jun 11 16:31:23 <vi__> as in: a=a*9.75m
Jun 11 16:31:35 <freemangordon> m for microsoft?
Jun 11 16:31:36 <ecc3g> typecasted.
Jun 11 16:32:07 <vi__> freemangordon: I have literally no idea.
Jun 11 16:32:13 <freemangordon> :)
Jun 11 16:32:18 <vi__> I am floundering around like a moron.
Jun 11 16:32:45 <vi__> Writing crappy code because I have no idea how to actually use visual studio 2010 or c#.
Jun 11 16:32:57 <freemangordon> vi__: why use it then?
Jun 11 16:33:05 <vi__> Because I have been told to.
Jun 11 16:33:13 <freemangordon> vs2010 has c++ compiler
Jun 11 16:33:14 <freemangordon> ooh
Jun 11 16:34:49 <freemangordon> this is the amongst the most stupid ideas i've ever heard - to force someone to write a code with an IDE he is not familiar with using a programming language he has NFC of
Jun 11 16:35:02 <freemangordon> WTF?
Jun 11 16:35:05 <vi__> for example, I am convinced there must be a way to 'link' a slider and a 'number box' instead of adding an 'update slider position' clause in the 'execute this when number box value is changed'.
Jun 11 16:35:23 <vi__> welcome to my company.
Jun 11 16:35:43 <vi__> I have a new job anyway.
Jun 11 16:35:50 <freemangordon> congrats
Jun 11 16:35:54 <vi__> TY
Jun 11 16:36:07 <vi__> I just have to eat this shit for 1 more month.
Jun 11 16:36:16 <vi__> Although I really want to finish this.
Jun 11 16:36:20 <freemangordon> vi__: you are coding some UI?
Jun 11 16:36:29 <vi__> I do not want to leave unfinished stuff.
Jun 11 16:36:34 <vi__> Yes.
Jun 11 16:36:52 <freemangordon> omg
Jun 11 16:37:21 <vi__> Is it that shocking?
Jun 11 16:38:10 <freemangordon> well... maybe not according to the policy of that company. But in my book, HW/SW guys should not code UI ;)
Jun 11 16:38:33 <vi__> heh.
Jun 11 16:38:39 <vi__> I concur!
Jun 11 16:38:43 <freemangordon> I mean those who know both sides of the coin
Jun 11 16:40:32 <freemangordon> In my company UI's are usually coded by a girl, which till not so long ago was an assistant :). The others are doing serious stuff
Jun 11 16:40:52 <vi__> Exactly, UI programming is for women.
Jun 11 16:41:29 <freemangordon> well, depends
Jun 11 16:41:37 <vi__> (i was joking)
Jun 11 16:41:41 <freemangordon> hehe
Jun 11 16:41:59 <vi__> if mrs vi__ heard that she would round house kick me to the head.
Jun 11 16:42:06 <freemangordon> I;d say that programming as a whole is not for women 
Jun 11 16:42:09 * freemangordon hides
Jun 11 16:42:52 <freemangordon> I am still to see relatively good code written by a woman
Jun 11 16:43:48 <vi__> hah, you are just jaded by tkscreenlock.
Jun 11 16:43:55 <freemangordon> heh
Jun 11 16:44:03 <vi__> and alarm snooze button.
Jun 11 16:44:48 <Wizzup_> freemangordon: eh...
Jun 11 16:44:57 <freemangordon> no, we tried to hire ladies several times, it was a disaster. one of the ladies had 2 university degrees (economics and engineering)
Jun 11 16:45:09 <vi__> In fact you do not even need an alarm snooze button now.  You wake up screaming every hour just thinking about the memory leaks, thus negating the need for an alarm.
Jun 11 16:45:10 <freemangordon> no use
Jun 11 16:45:16 <DocScrutinizer05> poor degrees for coding
Jun 11 16:45:16 <Wizzup_> You're generalising
Jun 11 16:45:42 <freemangordon> Wizzup_: hmm? I am talking about my experience
Jun 11 16:45:44 <DocScrutinizer05> generally degrees are poor qualification for coding ;-P
Jun 11 16:45:50 <vi__> You do not need a degree for coding.
Jun 11 16:45:57 <vi__> You just need a logical mind.
Jun 11 16:46:00 <vi__> and maths.
Jun 11 16:46:03 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: my degree is in robotics ;)
Jun 11 16:46:04 <vi__> lots of maths.
Jun 11 16:46:05 <DocScrutinizer05> no math
Jun 11 16:46:11 <freemangordon> LOTS OF math
Jun 11 16:46:16 <vi__> ALL MATHS.
Jun 11 16:46:17 <DocScrutinizer05> hah
Jun 11 16:46:25 <DocScrutinizer05> i++
Jun 11 16:46:35 <freemangordon> you really need it, not while coding, but because it changes your way of thinking
Jun 11 16:46:36 <vi__> Convert.ToInt32(i);
Jun 11 16:46:48 <DocScrutinizer05> ok, for graphics etc that's another thing
Jun 11 16:47:02 <DocScrutinizer05> or mp3 etc
Jun 11 16:47:18 <DocScrutinizer05> you should know what's a FFT
Jun 11 16:47:32 <DocScrutinizer05> and similar stuff
Jun 11 16:47:34 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: btw that lady engineering degree was in computer science
Jun 11 16:47:38 <DocScrutinizer05> matrix operations
Jun 11 16:47:50 <freemangordon> (or whatever is the english term)
Jun 11 16:47:58 <DocScrutinizer05> see? degrees are detrimental
Jun 11 16:48:06 <freemangordon> esp here ;)
Jun 11 16:48:24 <freemangordon> but math is still a must
Jun 11 16:48:55 <freemangordon> remember all the crypto algos 
Jun 11 16:48:57 <vi__> computer science. rofl.
Jun 11 16:49:21 <freemangordon> <freemangordon> (or whatever is the english term)
Jun 11 16:50:34 <vi__> Did you see on the forum the opera 12 crashing thing?
Jun 11 16:50:42 <freemangordon> anyway, UI should not be done by senior developer (and I don;t talk about job positions)
Jun 11 16:51:18 <vi__> People are claiming adding a '/' before 'opera' on the exec line is stopping the crashing.
Jun 11 16:51:32 <vi__> (the exec line of opera.desktop)
Jun 11 16:51:39 <freemangordon> vi__: yes
Jun 11 16:51:45 <vi__> it makes no sense.
Jun 11 16:51:51 <freemangordon> I was wondering WTF is that supposed to mean
Jun 11 16:52:13 <freemangordon> maybe someone should dig in hildon-desktop
Jun 11 16:52:14 <vi__> and How TF user 'seanmcken' discovered it?
Jun 11 16:52:21 <Wizzup_> vi__: I found that lots of ppl who do maths are not very good coders
Jun 11 16:53:01 <freemangordon> Wizzup_: sure, one need imagination and lots of other skills to be good developer
Jun 11 16:53:06 <vi__> Wizzup_: I was merely saying an understanding of maths is, in my opinion a very important quality for a coder.
Jun 11 16:53:09 <freemangordon> *needs
Jun 11 16:53:14 <Wizzup_> it is for certain programs vi__ 
Jun 11 16:53:25 <Wizzup_> but for the average java coder who uses eclipse and svn
Jun 11 16:53:26 <Wizzup_> probably not
Jun 11 16:53:27 <Wizzup_> :)
Jun 11 16:53:32 <Wizzup_> they just code whatever their tests tell them
Jun 11 16:53:42 <Wizzup_> but yeah, for more scientific and useful programming, yeah
Jun 11 16:54:05 <freemangordon> Wizzup_: we're discussing "good" developers, not "average java" developers ;)
Jun 11 16:54:35 <vi__> I believe maths is an essential skill like tying your shoes or wiping your butt after a dump.
Jun 11 16:54:39 <freemangordon> I was told those are paid per line of code in India, NFC if it is true though
Jun 11 16:54:52 <Wizzup_> freemangordon: right, then yes, a MSc at a good uni at least.
Jun 11 16:54:54 <vi__> paid per line??
Jun 11 16:55:02 <vi__> I could write a novel in the comments!
Jun 11 16:55:10 <freemangordon> (average java developers)
Jun 11 16:55:22 <freemangordon> vi__: toldya, NFC if it is true
Jun 11 16:59:21 <DocScrutinizer05> you know there been recurring investigations that all resulted in: a coder can produce 5..12 bugfree codelines per DAY
Jun 11 16:59:43 <DocScrutinizer05> long term average
Jun 11 16:59:51 <freemangordon> really?
Jun 11 16:59:53 <freemangordon> omg
Jun 11 17:00:21 <DocScrutinizer05> incl debugging and all
Jun 11 17:43:03 <DocScrutinizer05> e.g here http://codebetter.com/patricksmacchia/2012/01/23/mythical-man-month-10-lines-per-developer-day/
Jun 11 18:02:46 <DocScrutinizer05> oh wow, seems we have a BoD meeting appointment for thursday next week
Jun 11 18:32:20 <sixwheeledbeast> mmm still no logs to check back on if I get disconnected. Is povbot still stuck on overflow car park? 
Jun 11 18:39:38 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Jun 11 18:39:48 <DocScrutinizer05> and mgedmin is MIA
Jun 11 18:40:34 <DocScrutinizer05> what you see here is just his bouncer, with an away msf of Fri 7th
Jun 11 18:40:41 <DocScrutinizer05> msg
Jun 11 18:41:18 <DocScrutinizer05> err, not here, in #harmattan
Jun 11 18:41:22 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway see
Jun 11 18:41:25 <DocScrutinizer05> ~log
Jun 11 18:41:25 <infobot> it has been said that log is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog
Jun 11 18:41:30 <DocScrutinizer05> ~logs
Jun 11 18:41:30 <infobot> All conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily.
Jun 11 18:41:55 <DocScrutinizer05> not like povbot, but better than nothing
Jun 11 18:43:54 <DocScrutinizer05> and the nice part: unlike povbot, I have admin powers on infobot
Jun 11 18:44:19 <infobot> yes, you do, master
Jun 11 18:46:20 <infobot> sixwheeledbeast: you might find my logs useful once you look at them :-)
Jun 11 18:47:40 <sixwheeledbeast> :0
Jun 11 18:47:40 <DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: you got an idea where to find mgedmin's mail addr?
Jun 11 18:48:04 <sixwheeledbeast> I can look 
Jun 11 18:48:31 <DocScrutinizer05> marius getminas pov.lt programmers of litvana or sth
Jun 11 18:48:54 <DocScrutinizer05> gedminas even
Jun 11 18:49:33 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-06-11 20:35:46] [Away] mgedmin is away: Auto away at Fri Jun  7 17:50:08 2013
Jun 11 18:49:35 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-06-11 20:35:46] <mgedmin> mgedmin is currently away, try again later
Jun 11 18:49:57 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-06-11 20:36:24] [CTCP] Received CTCP-VERSION reply from mgedmin: ZNC 0.206+deb1 - http://znc.in.
Jun 11 18:50:33 <sixwheeledbeast> hidemail on IRC
Jun 11 18:50:37 <sixwheeledbeast> :(
Jun 11 18:50:43 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, normal
Jun 11 18:51:03 <DocScrutinizer05> http://mg.pov.lt
Jun 11 18:52:04 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe if you have a twitter account or sth, you can contact him on / via this website
Jun 11 18:52:47 <sixwheeledbeast> twitter dafuq no!
Jun 11 18:54:06 <DocScrutinizer05> nm, got a mail addr
Jun 11 19:04:22 <DocScrutinizer05> sent an email to marius gemin.as
Jun 11 19:04:47 <DocScrutinizer05> let's hope that makes it to wherever he is right now
Jun 11 19:07:33 * Lava_Croft always enjoys watching a freshly flashed N900 boot to its first startup screen
Jun 11 19:08:02 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed
Jun 11 19:08:36 <Apic> ... and finding it bad how it wastes €0.19 for an SMS. B0(
Jun 11 19:08:39 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, mgedmin seems alive at least: > >Something's wrong with this x220. 77°C while it's sitting idle in the shade .about 3 days ago from web<<
Jun 11 19:09:16 <DocScrutinizer05> Apic: follow the SOP and you'll not waste any SMS
Jun 11 19:09:30 <DocScrutinizer05> remove SIM before flashing
Jun 11 19:09:46 <Apic> Good Idea.
Jun 11 19:09:54 <Lava_Croft> i never flash n900 or n9 with sim
Jun 11 19:09:57 <DocScrutinizer05> follow instructions about ~mynokia and on ~jrtools, after flashing
Jun 11 19:10:03 <Lava_Croft> it makes you feel invaded if you do so
Jun 11 19:10:10 <DocScrutinizer05> only THEN insert SIM
Jun 11 19:10:37 <DocScrutinizer05> ~mynokia
Jun 11 19:10:37 <infobot> i guess mynokia is a digital robbery courtesy Nokia, or http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription, or https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10366
Jun 11 19:10:42 <DocScrutinizer05> ~jrtolls
Jun 11 19:10:50 <DocScrutinizer05> ~jrtools
Jun 11 19:10:51 <infobot> from memory, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
Jun 11 19:11:46 <DocScrutinizer05> in short the latter boils down to:
Jun 11 19:11:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ############################################ 
Jun 11 19:11:50 <DocScrutinizer05> # kill that cherry PITA, before it sends SMS  --  STILL ACTUAL!
Jun 11 19:11:52 <DocScrutinizer05> # see http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription
Jun 11 19:11:53 <DocScrutinizer05> touch /home/user/.cherry_state
Jun 11 19:12:34 <DocScrutinizer05> but then, you also shall clean out your SMS cache
Jun 11 19:12:50 <DocScrutinizer05> since a SMS might already wait there for getting sent
Jun 11 19:13:40 <DocScrutinizer05> so install notmynokia app, and read about cherry/mynokia robbery on wiki
Jun 11 19:14:44 <DocScrutinizer05> makes me wonder when CSSU will finally publish a CSSU (& cherry-neutered) FIASCO image
Jun 11 19:15:11 <Wizzup_> do it!
Jun 11 19:15:25 <DocScrutinizer05> make it!
Jun 11 19:15:35 <Wizzup_> hihi
Jun 11 19:15:50 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: we'll need some tool to track what goes into there
Jun 11 19:16:02 <DocScrutinizer05> err
Jun 11 19:16:20 <freemangordon> otherwise nothing can stop me to put a daemon tracking your GPS location or uploading your contacts DB
Jun 11 19:16:25 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't pali's 0xffff just build a fiasco from a plain fs
Jun 11 19:16:27 <freemangordon> for example
Jun 11 19:16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh
Jun 11 19:16:43 <DocScrutinizer05> I see
Jun 11 19:16:46 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: yeah 
Jun 11 19:16:51 <Pali> 0xFFFF can create fiasco image
Jun 11 19:17:09 <freemangordon> Pali: we have the tools, the point is about security
Jun 11 19:17:35 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, how about council "signing" the ready-made fiasco image, after inspecting it?
Jun 11 19:17:53 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: inspecting it would be a nightmare
Jun 11 19:18:05 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
Jun 11 19:18:27 <freemangordon> hmm, what about this:
Jun 11 19:18:32 <DocScrutinizer05> but I think that's no different to any arbitrary CSSU update
Jun 11 19:18:41 <Pali> somewhere I have list of packages which should be removed from fiasco rootfs image
Jun 11 19:18:56 <freemangordon> extract the image and put it in git
Jun 11 19:19:09 <freemangordon> (though that one should not be public)
Jun 11 19:19:17 <DocScrutinizer05> why?
Jun 11 19:19:19 <freemangordon> that way we can track the changes
Jun 11 19:19:26 <freemangordon> because if the IP
Jun 11 19:19:31 <DocScrutinizer05> fsck IP
Jun 11 19:19:37 <freemangordon> DSP codex, flashplayer, whatnot
Jun 11 19:19:41 <freemangordon> *codecs
Jun 11 19:19:47 <Pali> you can create script which update PR1.3.1 image to last CSSU
Jun 11 19:19:50 <freemangordon> anytime :D
Jun 11 19:20:00 <Pali> and then you can check what was and how changed
Jun 11 19:20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> plagood concept
Jun 11 19:20:13 <Pali> just diff on pr1.3.1 and new image
Jun 11 19:20:17 <freemangordon> Pali: sure, but this have to be made in public, at least partially
Jun 11 19:20:20 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: good concept
Jun 11 19:20:36 <freemangordon> Pali: how to check?
Jun 11 19:20:49 <DocScrutinizer05> you can check the script
Jun 11 19:20:57 <Pali> unpack both ubifs images and run script
Jun 11 19:21:04 <DocScrutinizer05> as well as all new pkgs it pulls from arbitrary source
Jun 11 19:21:11 <Pali> and you should get same image
Jun 11 19:21:23 <DocScrutinizer05> user has original certified NOKIA FIASCO
Jun 11 19:21:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and a *diff*
Jun 11 19:21:31 <freemangordon> I still like git concept more
Jun 11 19:21:31 <Pali> it will downloaded packages from CSSU repos
Jun 11 19:21:40 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Jun 11 19:21:46 <freemangordon> because we can track the changes that way
Jun 11 19:21:46 <Pali> git on 256MB image is stupid
Jun 11 19:21:51 <freemangordon> noo
Jun 11 19:21:56 <freemangordon> got on the rootfs
Jun 11 19:22:04 <freemangordon> EXTRACTED
Jun 11 19:22:16 <Pali> it will contains abou 200MB files
Jun 11 19:22:16 <freemangordon> and commit after every package installed
Jun 11 19:22:19 <freemangordon> so?
Jun 11 19:22:26 <Pali> and all are binaries...
Jun 11 19:22:27 <Wizzup_> what's the point of git on binary files?
Jun 11 19:22:31 <freemangordon> ok, so what?
Jun 11 19:22:36 <Pali> this will be too big and slow in git
Jun 11 19:22:43 <freemangordon> track of changes
Jun 11 19:22:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I think a patch to original extraced rootfs is the better way
Jun 11 19:22:46 <Pali> and there is bigger problem:
Jun 11 19:22:51 <Pali> git does not support permissions
Jun 11 19:23:06 <freemangordon> for sure it does
Jun 11 19:23:09 <Pali> so you cannot use git for creating ubifs image
Jun 11 19:23:19 <Pali> it does not support!
Jun 11 19:23:38 <Pali> there is no way to tell git that this file is owned by XYZ:ABC and has sticky bit set
Jun 11 19:23:38 <freemangordon> check your commits on gitorius fixing me putting executable source files
Jun 11 19:23:44 <freemangordon> oh
Jun 11 19:23:46 <freemangordon> ok
Jun 11 19:23:53 <Pali> executable is only only bit which is set in git
Jun 11 19:24:00 <freemangordon> ok, agree
Jun 11 19:24:07 <freemangordon> well, git won't work there
Jun 11 19:24:39 <DocScrutinizer05> look, that's an absolutely clean solution: user gets FIASCO and 0xffff and all the patchsets as script that does the tweaks, then pack it to a fiasco again with 0xffff, at *users* domain and under his supervision
Jun 11 19:25:04 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: not all users are on linux
Jun 11 19:25:12 <DocScrutinizer05> too bad for them
Jun 11 19:25:18 <Pali> but not all users care about verifing
Jun 11 19:25:19 <freemangordon> including me :P
Jun 11 19:25:22 <DocScrutinizer05> I honestly don't care for now
Jun 11 19:25:28 <freemangordon> Pali: but we should care
Jun 11 19:25:34 <Pali> some users can trust other users who verified that it is correct
Jun 11 19:25:40 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
Jun 11 19:26:01 <Pali> why? there will be howto verify image
Jun 11 19:26:09 <Pali> use some linux and here do this....
Jun 11 19:26:18 * freemangordon thinks this is unprofessional, sorry (untrusted fiasko image)
Jun 11 19:26:33 <DocScrutinizer05> if windows users really do care, they are free to install a ubuntu VM
Jun 11 19:26:44 <Pali> right
Jun 11 19:26:51 <freemangordon> bullshit
Jun 11 19:27:10 <Pali> there is *NO* windows driver for ubi and also no for ubifs
Jun 11 19:27:13 <freemangordon> go tell my sister she needs to install ubuntu VM under her win7
Jun 11 19:27:20 <DocScrutinizer05> seriously, CBA to care about windows users who don't care about verification anyway
Jun 11 19:27:38 <Pali> if somebody does not know how to install linux, he also does not know how to verify if ubifs image is correct
Jun 11 19:27:40 <DocScrutinizer05> I won't
Jun 11 19:27:51 <Lava_Croft> its great how 'windows users' are all assigned to a single group now
Jun 11 19:27:56 <Lava_Croft> you must be a 'linux user' or a 'mac user'
Jun 11 19:28:02 <freemangordon> however, do what you want, I am against that
Jun 11 19:28:14 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: if your sister comes to me asking "how can I verify that this fiasco isn't rogue?" THEN I will tell her exactly that
Jun 11 19:28:19 <freemangordon> (untrusted fiasko)
Jun 11 19:28:34 <Lava_Croft> i dont think the whole verification really matters at this point to most people
Jun 11 19:28:45 <DocScrutinizer05> exactly, Lava_Croft
Jun 11 19:28:47 <Pali> also please note that 0xFFFF not working on windows...
Jun 11 19:28:51 <Lava_Croft> even if it was malicious, it would be so awesome i would let the guy be malicious
Jun 11 19:28:53 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: if we prepare such an image in a correct way, then your answer will be - go read how it is prepared
Jun 11 19:28:56 <Lava_Croft> just because he targets such a huge market
Jun 11 19:28:59 <DocScrutinizer05> and freemangordon is the negatron for no reason here
Jun 11 19:29:28 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: that's no verification at all
Jun 11 19:29:47 <Pali> because ubi layer is supported only on linux and ubifs too, there is no way how to check integrity of our new roofs, only on linux
Jun 11 19:29:48 <DocScrutinizer05> and I won't give such an answer
Jun 11 19:29:56 <freemangordon> if the process is trusted, then the image will be trusted too
Jun 11 19:30:11 <DocScrutinizer05> so what?
Jun 11 19:30:17 <freemangordon> Pali: md5 can be calculated on every OS I am aware of, excluding DOS
Jun 11 19:30:45 <DocScrutinizer05> the process of applying patches to an extracted FIASCO under linux, then create a new FIASCO, is NOT trusted, or what?
Jun 11 19:31:01 <freemangordon> it is, but is is unapplicable to most of the users
Jun 11 19:31:08 <Pali> ok, if you are starting with trusted computing, first define what is ultimate trusted root
Jun 11 19:31:09 <DocScrutinizer05> SO WHAT??
Jun 11 19:31:33 <Pali> without it, this discussion is useless
Jun 11 19:32:19 <freemangordon> Pali: the trusted "root" is PR1.3(.1) image. all the changes on top of it should be traceable
Jun 11 19:32:38 <DocScrutinizer05> CSSU creates the tools (script, 0xffff) for doing the "patch" on arbitrary linux machines, provides a ready made fiasco bin image, and an instruction how any *LINUX* user can reproduce the process how it got built
Jun 11 19:32:47 <sixwheeledbeast> Well I agree with freemangordon, especially the last comment.
Jun 11 19:32:48 <DocScrutinizer05> WHAT ELSE do you demand for?
Jun 11 19:32:57 <Pali> ok, if only PR1.3.1 is trusted, then for modification you need ubifs driver
Jun 11 19:33:01 <Pali> which is only on linux
Jun 11 19:33:31 <freemangordon> Pali: I don;t say those modifications should be made by the end user
Jun 11 19:33:45 <DocScrutinizer05> shall we get it signed by microsoft or what?
Jun 11 19:33:46 <freemangordon> I say that they should be traceable
Jun 11 19:34:10 <Pali> for this you need ubifs driver again
Jun 11 19:34:25 <Pali> otherwise, you do not know *what* was changed in rootfs
Jun 11 19:34:26 <freemangordon> Pali: why? to make nd5 over the fiasko?
Jun 11 19:34:30 <freemangordon> *md5
Jun 11 19:34:45 <Pali> and what will md5 say about change?
Jun 11 19:34:47 <Pali> nothing
Jun 11 19:34:59 <DocScrutinizer05> or shall we create a binary with icon to doubleclick that creates the fiasco on windows user's machine locally? I really don't get your concerns, neither what you suggest how we traget your highly worried windows users
Jun 11 19:35:05 <Pali> also md5 say nothing about diff
Jun 11 19:35:11 <freemangordon> it will say that the image you've just downloaded is the same that was made by CSSU devs
Jun 11 19:35:41 <DocScrutinizer05> SO WHAT???? 
Jun 11 19:35:48 <freemangordon> and on the site you've downloaded the image from should be a list of changes compared with stock Nokia fiasko
Jun 11 19:35:52 <freemangordon> simple as that
Jun 11 19:35:53 <DocScrutinizer05> [2013-06-11 21:17:35] <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, how about council "signing" the ready-made fiasco image, after inspecting it?
Jun 11 19:36:00 <Pali> because you *need* to replace data in PR1.3.1 rootfs which is ubifs, you need ubifs driver
Jun 11 19:36:11 <freemangordon> key word being "inspecting" here
Jun 11 19:36:15 <Pali> otherwise you cannot verify integrity
Jun 11 19:36:25 <freemangordon> Pali: what?
Jun 11 19:36:55 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: sleep over it
Jun 11 19:37:01 <Pali> also there is another problem: because ubifs is "live" FS, you will propably always get different md5sum of images which contans *same* files
Jun 11 19:37:12 <DocScrutinizer05> you're severely confused right atm
Jun 11 19:37:48 <Pali> all hash funcion of ubifs image know nothing about files which are in image
Jun 11 19:38:07 <freemangordon> Pali: what is the problem to do md5 of RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin ? why do you need ubifs driver for that?
Jun 11 19:38:20 <Pali> so you cannot check if two ubifs images are same, only if you unpack them and check every file
Jun 11 19:38:21 <DocScrutinizer05> we don't
Jun 11 19:38:40 <Pali> you need ubifs driver for unpacking our new CSSU image
Jun 11 19:39:01 <freemangordon> omg, why unpack it, you can do md5 on the packed image
Jun 11 19:39:02 <DocScrutinizer05> what does the word "sign" in >>[2013-06-11 21:17:35] <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, how about council "signing" the ready-made fiasco image, after inspecting it?<< mean for you? it's "publish the md5sum" nothing else
Jun 11 19:39:05 <Pali> because if you run my script which will create new ubifs, it will have different md5sum as my image
Jun 11 19:39:15 <freemangordon> oh
Jun 11 19:39:20 <Pali> and will contains same files as my image
Jun 11 19:39:49 <freemangordon> Pali: I talk about ready-made fiasko, not about that script which will be useful only for "linux users"
Jun 11 19:39:54 <Pali> only because of using another version of mkfs, ubifs driver, linux kernel version, number of mount counts, type of nandsim, ...
Jun 11 19:40:01 <freemangordon> Pali: ^^^
Jun 11 19:40:12 <Pali> now I do not understand...
Jun 11 19:40:28 <freemangordon> what exactly?
Jun 11 19:40:30 <Pali> please define what you want and what you have now as input
Jun 11 19:40:32 <DocScrutinizer05> CSSU creates the tools (script, 0xffff) for doing the "patch" on arbitrary linux machines, provides a ready made fiasco bin image, and an instruction how any *LINUX* user can reproduce the process how it got built. Council approves that the md5sum of the fiasco built by CSSU team is 089247821894167476
Jun 11 19:41:10 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: hold on for a while please, I'll try to elaborate
Jun 11 19:41:21 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: linux user which will use our "patch" will have ubifs image with different md5sum, but same files
Jun 11 19:41:31 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
Jun 11 19:41:35 <DocScrutinizer05> who cares
Jun 11 19:41:43 <Pali> so for checking you need to unpack image
Jun 11 19:41:51 <Pali> and you can run diff, to check if it is OK
Jun 11 19:41:57 <DocScrutinizer05> the md5sum is **for the FIASCO provided by CSSU, for windows users**
Jun 11 19:42:02 <Pali> ok
Jun 11 19:42:27 <Pali> I agree with this solution
Jun 11 19:42:39 <DocScrutinizer05> I won't do any diff between two fiasco images, that's nonsense
Jun 11 19:42:47 <freemangordon> Pali: now, "we" prepare a fiasko based on top of PR1.3.1, in such a way that all the chaged files are logged somehow. once we finish applying the patches, we make md5 hash. 
Jun 11 19:43:04 <freemangordon> is it more clear now?
Jun 11 19:43:48 <Pali> changes will be only: add cssu repo, run apt-get update && apt-get upgrade
Jun 11 19:44:00 <tiss> Hey, anyone got a second to give a hand?
Jun 11 19:44:10 <Pali> shell script for this will be really simple
Jun 11 19:44:23 <DocScrutinizer05> the changed files are "logged2 in the script that applies the changes on arbitrary users' linux machines, so they can build their own fiasco if they don't trust the fiasco made by CSSU
Jun 11 19:44:24 <Pali> and logging all changed files from apt, this is very hard
Jun 11 19:44:25 <tiss> i'm *trying* to flash my n900 on linux
Jun 11 19:44:33 <sixwheeledbeast> tiss: go on
Jun 11 19:44:55 <sixwheeledbeast> tiss: have you read the flashing wiki page several times?
Jun 11 19:45:10 <tiss> So, I enter the command "sudo flasher-3.5 -F <firmware-image> -f
Jun 11 19:45:10 <tiss> " , and terminal says "option requires an argument -- 'F' "
Jun 11 19:45:24 <tiss> yeah, no luck there
Jun 11 19:45:54 <sixwheeledbeast> ~flashing
Jun 11 19:45:55 <infobot> well, maemo-flashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware
Jun 11 19:45:58 <freemangordon> tiss: replace <firmware-image> with .bin file you've downloaded
Jun 11 19:46:01 <Pali> tiss: and are you sure that you specified correct file?
Jun 11 19:46:06 <DocScrutinizer05> a) don't use sudo, become root
Jun 11 19:46:10 <DocScrutinizer05> su
Jun 11 19:46:14 <tiss> yeah yeah of course i replaced it with the filename
Jun 11 19:46:24 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: sudo is ok
Jun 11 19:46:37 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: is ^^^ enough about "linux users" and 0xffff?
Jun 11 19:46:48 <DocScrutinizer05> then check if your file really is existing, I hope you have replaced "<firmware-image>" by the true filename
Jun 11 19:46:52 <tiss> rx-51- blehblehbleh.bin-\,\ attachment 
Jun 11 19:47:09 <tiss> thats the  filenime
Jun 11 19:47:22 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: sudo sucks, for ls -l <filename>
Jun 11 19:47:39 <Pali> tiss: please upload full output from flasher
Jun 11 19:47:46 <DocScrutinizer05> sudo sucks, for "cd"
Jun 11 19:47:47 <tiss> yeah i'm not using sudo atm
Jun 11 19:47:54 <DocScrutinizer05> or rtaher "pwd"
Jun 11 19:48:30 <tiss> but the end of the filename is kinda weird isn't it? i mean ".bin-, attachment"
Jun 11 19:48:42 <DocScrutinizer05> tiss: please copy your exact and complete commandline here
Jun 11 19:48:47 <DocScrutinizer05> incl prompt
Jun 11 19:48:56 <tiss> ugh
Jun 11 19:49:17 <tiss> that's kinda, impossible i'm afraid
Jun 11 19:49:24 <DocScrutinizer05> if your file is actually named like that then you did something seriosly odd
Jun 11 19:49:31 <tiss> wireless drivers aint working on my linux installation
Jun 11 19:50:29 <tiss> but i can't install the flasher on windows either since the download mirror isn't working (for the windows installer)
Jun 11 19:50:33 <DocScrutinizer05> your file should be named sth like:
Jun 11 19:50:37 <DocScrutinizer05> ~pr131
Jun 11 19:50:37 <infobot> combined is probably the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin  or  http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
Jun 11 19:50:56 <tiss> so, i downloaded the linux installer and got on my linux mint laptop and i'm trying to do the falashing with it.
Jun 11 19:50:57 <DocScrutinizer05> I.E. "RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin"
Jun 11 19:51:39 <DocScrutinizer05> so do a wget http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/fiasco+co/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
Jun 11 19:52:05 <DocScrutinizer05> which shall result in a file RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin in your current dir
Jun 11 19:52:54 <DocScrutinizer05> then use sudo flasher-3.5 -F ./RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin -f
Jun 11 19:52:55 <tiss> "RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin-, attachment"
Jun 11 19:52:59 <tiss> that's the whole name
Jun 11 19:53:13 <tiss> sorry but i can't wget anything for the aforementioned reason
Jun 11 19:53:13 <DocScrutinizer05> that's terrible bullshit (sorry)
Jun 11 19:53:34 <DocScrutinizer05> please ls -l RX*
Jun 11 19:53:45 <DocScrutinizer05> and paste the length in bytes here
Jun 11 19:54:06 <tiss> sorry but the wireless drivers ain't working on my linux installation
Jun 11 19:54:11 <tiss> ie. i can't connect to internet
Jun 11 19:54:26 <tiss> i'm on my windows workstation atm
Jun 11 19:54:28 <DocScrutinizer05> for ls -l you don't need internet
Jun 11 19:54:43 <freemangordon> tiss: do you have ANY network access to that laptop?
Jun 11 19:54:56 <DocScrutinizer05> type
Jun 11 19:54:58 <tiss> yes, on my windows partititon
Jun 11 19:55:04 <DocScrutinizer05> ls -l RX*
Jun 11 19:55:07 <tiss> won't help much tho
Jun 11 19:55:16 <freemangordon> tiss: you got me wrong. can you ssh to it?
Jun 11 19:55:23 <DocScrutinizer05> then copy the number of "size" of ls output to here
Jun 11 19:55:59 <freemangordon> or just type it, it should be 6-7 digits at most
Jun 11 19:55:59 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: he doesn't need ssh to rename that oddly named file
Jun 11 19:56:26 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: I suspect he has downloaded the php script :)
Jun 11 19:56:32 <DocScrutinizer05> if it looks like reasonable length (and maybe md5sum) then all it needs is "mv RX* myfiasco.bin"
Jun 11 19:56:47 <tiss> alright maybe i should rather jump out the window or something
Jun 11 19:56:48 <DocScrutinizer05> that's why I want ls -l
Jun 11 19:56:58 <freemangordon> yeah, got it
Jun 11 19:57:23 <DocScrutinizer05> tiss whatever you better do, you got 100% precise instructions what you *should* do
Jun 11 19:57:37 <tiss> well, i typed "ls -l RX*"
Jun 11 19:57:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ls -l RX*
Jun 11 19:59:16 <DocScrutinizer05> you shall get a line like this one:
Jun 11 19:59:17 <DocScrutinizer05> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jr jr 200174197 28. Sep 2011  RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
Jun 11 19:59:28 <tiss> then it says "-rw----g--- 1 username username 200174197 june 11 2013 RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin-, attachment "
Jun 11 19:59:48 <tiss> wait a sex that g wasn't supposed to go there
Jun 11 19:59:50 <DocScrutinizer05> great! :-)
Jun 11 19:59:54 <DocScrutinizer05> no type
Jun 11 20:00:05 <DocScrutinizer05> mv RX* myfiasco.bin
Jun 11 20:00:44 <DocScrutinizer05> or replace "myfiasco.bin2 with whatever name you prefer
Jun 11 20:00:47 <tiss> aight
Jun 11 20:00:52 <DocScrutinizer05> COMBINED.bin
Jun 11 20:01:00 <tiss> done
Jun 11 20:01:20 <tiss> das it?
Jun 11 20:01:26 <DocScrutinizer05> check again by 
Jun 11 20:01:31 <DocScrutinizer05> ls -l my*
Jun 11 20:01:43 <tiss> ok
Jun 11 20:01:58 <tiss> well, its there
Jun 11 20:02:32 <tiss> so, back to the flashing part... still says "requires an argument -- F"
Jun 11 20:02:41 <DocScrutinizer05> chmod 666 my*
Jun 11 20:03:00 <tiss> ok...
Jun 11 20:03:05 <DocScrutinizer05> chmod 666 myfiaco*
Jun 11 20:03:09 <DocScrutinizer05> rather
Jun 11 20:03:19 <DocScrutinizer05> meh, you see the typo
Jun 11 20:03:26 <tiss> yeah, yeah
Jun 11 20:03:33 <tiss> still doesn't work though 
Jun 11 20:03:49 <Pali> "requires an argument -- F" --> this mean you did not specified argument
Jun 11 20:04:02 <Pali> because if you specify invalid file it write: "No such file or directory"
Jun 11 20:04:16 <tiss> well, i typed "flasher-3.5 -F <myfiasco.bin> -f
Jun 11 20:04:31 <Pali> without <>?
Jun 11 20:04:41 <DocScrutinizer05> sudo flasher-3.5 -F ./myfisco.bin -f
Jun 11 20:04:49 <tiss> oh, right
Jun 11 20:04:58 <freemangordon> <freemangordon> tiss: replace <firmware-image> with .bin file you've downloaded
Jun 11 20:04:59 <tiss> yeah okay i feel kinda stupid now
Jun 11 20:05:00 <DocScrutinizer05> sudo flasher-3.5 -F ./myfiasco.bin -f
Jun 11 20:05:03 <DocScrutinizer05> even
Jun 11 20:05:08 <tiss> it worked alright when i removed the <>
Jun 11 20:05:18 <tiss> anyway time to take the dog out for a sex
Jun 11 20:05:24 <tiss> bbw
Jun 11 20:05:31 <peetah> for a sex ?
Jun 11 20:05:32 <tiss> *sec
Jun 11 20:05:36 <tiss> *brb
Jun 11 20:05:44 <DocScrutinizer05> I loved the first version better ;-P
Jun 11 20:05:55 <tiss> no sex for that dog anymore am afraid
Jun 11 20:07:08 <DocScrutinizer05> tiss: you probably will need to delete a file named "-f" in your current dir
Jun 11 20:07:45 <DocScrutinizer05> rm './-f'
Jun 11 20:08:21 <DocScrutinizer05> or          rm ?f
Jun 11 20:08:42 <DocScrutinizer05> you can tell by
Jun 11 20:08:50 <DocScrutinizer05> ls -l *f
Jun 11 20:08:53 <DocScrutinizer05> or
Jun 11 20:08:56 <DocScrutinizer05> ls -l ?f
Jun 11 20:10:19 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders how tiss managed to get a "RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin-, attachment " file
Jun 11 20:14:06 <freemangordon> shit, my home has errors, WTF?!?
Jun 11 20:14:24 <freemangordon> "/home" even
Jun 11 20:15:08 <DocScrutinizer05> wonder how Nokia managed THIS:
Jun 11 20:15:10 <DocScrutinizer05> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jr jr 200174197 25. Okt 2010  RX-51_2009SE_20.2010.36-2_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
Jun 11 20:15:12 <DocScrutinizer05> -rw-rw-r-- 1 jr jr 200174197 28. Sep 2011  RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin
Jun 11 20:15:43 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: it is easy, ubifs image has same size
Jun 11 20:15:54 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah, k. thanks :-)
Jun 11 20:16:08 <Pali> they only modified files in ubifs archive
Jun 11 20:16:15 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Jun 11 20:16:17 <Pali> so size was not increased
Jun 11 20:16:53 <freemangordon> Pali: I can't unmount /dev/mmcblk0p2 while in maemo, ain't?
Jun 11 20:17:04 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly not
Jun 11 20:17:19 <DocScrutinizer05> you need backupmenu to fsck
Jun 11 20:17:37 <DocScrutinizer05> since it runs when /home not yet mounted, aiui
Jun 11 20:17:49 <Pali> yes, from maemo /home is unmountable
Jun 11 20:18:05 <freemangordon> won;t fly, I don;t have it installed and apt database is corrupted :(
Jun 11 20:18:06 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
Jun 11 20:18:52 <freemangordon> I wonder if we're hitting some hidden bug in ext3 driver aftyer the last CSSU update
Jun 11 20:18:57 <freemangordon> *after
Jun 11 20:19:04 <DocScrutinizer05> ((<Pali> yes, from maemo /home is unmountable)) how?
Jun 11 20:19:17 <freemangordon> as there are several reports for corrupted /home
Jun 11 20:19:37 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: bad, I mean it is not possible to umount /home
Jun 11 20:19:44 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: because of /opt I guess
Jun 11 20:19:46 <DocScrutinizer05> well, merlin1991 neutered fsck in boot process
Jun 11 20:20:05 <merlin1991> I didn't afaik the commit is from freemangordon
Jun 11 20:20:16 <Pali> fsck should be disabled in last cssu
Jun 11 20:20:21 <Pali> it is my commit
Jun 11 20:20:26 <freemangordon> merlin1991: well, I just pushed, it is Pali's
Jun 11 20:20:48 <DocScrutinizer05> then don't feel surprised when every unclean shutdown renders your /home borked
Jun 11 20:20:55 <Pali> I totally disabled fsck in maemo
Jun 11 20:21:03 <Pali> until new fsck will be in cssu
Jun 11 20:21:06 <freemangordon> oh, really?
Jun 11 20:21:16 <freemangordon> well, i guess I can enable it
Jun 11 20:21:28 <freemangordon> though I am afraid of the consequeces
Jun 11 20:21:36 <Pali> maemo fsck damaged my /home (ext3)
Jun 11 20:21:46 <freemangordon> going to dd first
Jun 11 20:22:08 <Pali> I dd-ed to notebook, where I fixed it and dd-ed back to phone
Jun 11 20:22:32 <DocScrutinizer05> quote woody: >>Thursday it is.  Please mark it on your calendars.<< (to BoD)
Jun 11 20:22:38 <Pali> there more people who reported that fsck in maemo damaged ext3 and ext4 /home
Jun 11 20:23:01 <freemangordon> hmm, on the other hand I have u-boot, so i think i can risk a reboot with fsck
Jun 11 20:23:58 <Pali> merlin1991: can you push new version of enabler to cssu-stable which has updated GPG key?
Jun 11 20:24:07 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: it's never fsck that damages the fs, it's the unclean umount / shutdown that does. fsck at worst doesn't succeed to *fix* it
Jun 11 20:24:11 <freemangordon> I don;t think I have anything valuable on rootfs
Jun 11 20:24:27 <DocScrutinizer05> /home
Jun 11 20:24:41 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: fsck really damaged my /home after unclean shutdown
Jun 11 20:24:45 <freemangordon> well, I'll take the risk
Jun 11 20:24:57 <freemangordon> will backup first
Jun 11 20:25:00 <Pali> when I called desktop version of fsck before maemo called, it repared
Jun 11 20:25:11 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: no it doesn't. If fs wasn't already damaged, fsck never would even touch it
Jun 11 20:25:11 <Pali> but when I called desktop version after maemo, it failed too
Jun 11 20:25:25 <merlin1991> Pali: chemist shoudl be around, or not, I'll do it
Jun 11 20:26:06 <Pali> unclean /home + maemo fsck + desktop fsck = damaged FS;
Jun 11 20:26:14 <Pali> unclean /home + desktop fsck = working FS
Jun 11 20:26:27 <DocScrutinizer05> that might be correct
Jun 11 20:26:30 <Pali> in both cases it was same dump og unclean /home
Jun 11 20:27:02 <DocScrutinizer05> but that unclean /home already been "damaged" by any meaning of the word
Jun 11 20:27:23 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: so in this case, maemo fsck did something which also new version of fsck was not able to fix
Jun 11 20:27:35 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, possible
Jun 11 20:27:40 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: by damaged I mean, FS which is not possible to fix
Jun 11 20:28:09 <DocScrutinizer05> but removing fsck completely is not the right way to cope with that
Jun 11 20:28:15 <Pali> and it not mountable (without some ro/force flags)
Jun 11 20:28:30 <DocScrutinizer05> since then you'll leave behind users with unclean fs
Jun 11 20:28:41 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: yes, but it is temp solution, until we have fsck which does not damage FSs
Jun 11 20:28:50 <DocScrutinizer05> solution to what?
Jun 11 20:29:05 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: also: in nokia rcS-late fsck was called *only* if mount failed
Jun 11 20:29:17 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: solution = new version of fsck in cssu
Jun 11 20:29:32 <kerio> e2fsprogs should be updated, yes
Jun 11 20:29:35 <DocScrutinizer05> you break stuff for those 95..99.9% users that never suffered fsck "damage" when fixing their unclean /home
Jun 11 20:29:47 <Pali> and internal repared in ext3 driver can do someting
Jun 11 20:29:58 <kerio> fwiw, i also report a massive botch of the builtin e2fsprogs
Jun 11 20:30:14 <kerio> fsck on ext3 is useless
Jun 11 20:30:27 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: if ext3fs is unclean, it can be still mounted by kernel driver and cleaned by internal cleaer
Jun 11 20:30:40 <DocScrutinizer05> uhuh
Jun 11 20:31:01 <Pali> kerio: it is usefull, it can found some abnormal file and dir states
Jun 11 20:31:12 <kerio> no, i meant the stock one
Jun 11 20:31:19 <DocScrutinizer05> then explain to me why we *now* see tons of users that complain that their /home is fuxored, after you *disabled* fsck all together
Jun 11 20:31:24 <Pali> stock? right, it is useless
Jun 11 20:31:39 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: it was before
Jun 11 20:31:56 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't see that
Jun 11 20:32:02 <Pali> fsck was enabled only in that cssu version which caused bootloop when sd card was inserted
Jun 11 20:32:43 <DocScrutinizer05> the way *I* read rcs-* it calls fsck to fix unclean umounts, and if you comment out that then your /home will never mount r/w again
Jun 11 20:32:53 <Pali> and in nokia rcS-late was started only if mount failed (internal ext3fs driver was unable to run own fsck/cleaner)
Jun 11 20:33:14 <ashley> so I installed nano (after setting up the fremantle/tools repo) via apt-get install nano and it works alright, but I think it quite doesn't treat umlaut characters (like ä and ö) correctly; a friend suggested inserting something like "export LANG=en_US.UTF-8" into .bash_profile but Maemo doesn't use bash, but ash...into what file would I put such an export statement?
Jun 11 20:33:53 <DocScrutinizer05> .profile?
Jun 11 20:34:06 <kerio> oh, how i wish maemo actually used ash
Jun 11 20:34:06 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: we can divide cssu into 3 versions: 1. before bootloop; 2. bootloop version; 3. fixed bootloop version
Jun 11 20:34:08 <kerio> and not busybox
Jun 11 20:34:17 <Pali> in 1. fsck was called if mount failed
Jun 11 20:34:22 <DocScrutinizer05> also stock messybox has a bug that actually makes it source .bashrc
Jun 11 20:34:22 <Pali> in 2. fsck was called always
Jun 11 20:34:32 <Pali> in 3. fsck is not called anymore
Jun 11 20:35:00 <freemangordon> yay, booted :D. lets see what are the damages
Jun 11 20:35:15 <DocScrutinizer05> "mount failed" means r/o mounts as well
Jun 11 20:35:18 <Pali> and because internal ext3fs cleaner working fine, in option 1. fsck was in 99% not called
Jun 11 20:36:12 <Pali> so 1. and 3. in 99% doing same
Jun 11 20:36:35 <ashley> DocScrutinizer05: cheers, that worked wonders :-D
Jun 11 20:36:47 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: when fsck will be updated to version which working, then we can enable calling fsck always again
Jun 11 20:37:07 <DocScrutinizer05> /bin/mount /home && grep -q "/home ext3 rw" /proc/mounts
Jun 11 20:37:09 <DocScrutinizer05>     if [ $? -eq 0 ]
Jun 11 20:37:10 <DocScrutinizer05>     then
Jun 11 20:37:12 <DocScrutinizer05>       return 0
Jun 11 20:37:13 <DocScrutinizer05>     else
Jun 11 20:37:15 <DocScrutinizer05>       grep -q "/home ext3 ro" /proc/mounts
Jun 11 20:37:16 <DocScrutinizer05> ...
Jun 11 20:37:36 <freemangordon> 2013-06-11 23:35:24  fsck -a /home
Jun 11 20:37:38 <freemangordon> fsck 1.41.3.maemo0 (12-Oct-2008)
Jun 11 20:37:40 <freemangordon> /dev/mmcblk0p2 contains a file system with errors, check forced.
Jun 11 20:37:42 <freemangordon> /dev/mmcblk0p2: Inode 24687 has illegal block(s).
Jun 11 20:37:44 <freemangordon> /dev/mmcblk0p2: UNEXPECTED INCONSISTENCY; RUN fsck MANUALLY.
Jun 11 20:37:46 <freemangordon> (i.e., without -a or -p options)
Jun 11 20:37:53 <freemangordon> :(
Jun 11 20:37:57 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: you fucked up maemo's r/o mount unclean fixing
Jun 11 20:38:03 <tiss> alright thanks freemangordon and docscrutinizer05
Jun 11 20:38:15 <tiss> n900 flashed succesfully, hoorah
Jun 11 20:38:32 <Pali> what?
Jun 11 20:39:01 <tiss> not sure if you got that but
Jun 11 20:39:10 <freemangordon> got it
Jun 11 20:39:10 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: maemo /etc/event.d/rcS-late calls fsck in case /home got mounted ro
Jun 11 20:39:18 <tiss> hookay
Jun 11 20:39:24 <tiss> now
Jun 11 20:39:26 <tiss> goodbye forever
Jun 11 20:39:34 <tiss> or until i next time run into problems
Jun 11 20:39:37 <DocScrutinizer05> which is the case whenever device shuts down in a not so graceful manner
Jun 11 20:39:41 <tiss> could be soon you know
Jun 11 20:39:44 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: this was in original nokia rcS-late
Jun 11 20:39:56 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Jun 11 20:40:05 <Pali> if mounting failed then it started fsck
Jun 11 20:40:12 <DocScrutinizer05> and it MUST stay like this, or anything *better*
Jun 11 20:40:35 <Pali> ok, need to update fsck
Jun 11 20:40:43 <Pali> and then new cssu can be released
Jun 11 20:40:44 <kerio> "which is the case whenever device shuts down in a not so graceful manner"
Jun 11 20:40:46 <kerio> wait, what?
Jun 11 20:40:48 <DocScrutinizer05> simply removing fsck all together fucks up 100% of users' devices during 6 months
Jun 11 20:40:50 <kerio> ext3 is a lot more resilient than that
Jun 11 20:41:48 * freemangordon goes to modify /sbin/preinit, wish him luck
Jun 11 20:41:49 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: this however is ext3 ON FLASH 
Jun 11 20:42:01 <kerio> tru dat
Jun 11 20:44:15 <DocScrutinizer05> debate is whether ext3 is any useful (more than ext2) *at all* on flash
Jun 11 20:44:40 <kerio> i run ext4 with data=writeback and nobarrier
Jun 11 20:44:42 <DocScrutinizer05> when you come to think of it, ext3 could be *worse* than ext2, on flash storage
Jun 11 20:44:53 <kerio> cuz i've got skillz
Jun 11 20:45:55 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: yes, pretty please update fsck
Jun 11 20:46:40 <DocScrutinizer05> lucky maemo, fsck is NOT a symlink to messybox
Jun 11 20:46:56 <DocScrutinizer05> (at least on my device, hope that's standard)
Jun 11 20:47:57 <kerio> i doubt any e2fsck exists apart from the e2fsprogs one
Jun 11 20:48:08 <kerio> file systems are kind of a big deal
Jun 11 20:48:59 <tiss> alright now, eh
Jun 11 20:49:06 <tiss> the flashing didn't seem to do that much
Jun 11 20:49:17 <tiss> all my media and stuff is there, also still have the same problems persisting
Jun 11 20:49:41 <kerio> you should've flashed VANILLA too, if you wanted to do a full reset
Jun 11 20:49:43 <tiss> see, MicroB canät finish loading sites sometimes - and then the window goes unresponsive and must be forced to close
Jun 11 20:50:10 <tiss> any idea why this happens?
Jun 11 20:50:33 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm
Jun 11 20:51:01 <DocScrutinizer05> webpage too large --> swap hell
Jun 11 20:51:23 <tiss> yeah but that happens on all sites
Jun 11 20:51:28 <tiss> did not use to happen, previously
Jun 11 20:51:30 <DocScrutinizer05> tiss: n900 has small amount of free RAM
Jun 11 20:51:32 <tiss> it just kind of suddenly started
Jun 11 20:52:13 <tiss> but i don't even have any applications installed
Jun 11 20:52:20 <tiss> anymore, that is
Jun 11 20:52:28 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, maybe you enabled or changed some plugin for microB?
Jun 11 20:53:00 <tiss> well, there's adblock plus
Jun 11 20:53:11 <DocScrutinizer05> monitoring the system via htop is a first start to find out what's going haywire
Jun 11 20:53:16 <DocScrutinizer05> ooooh
Jun 11 20:53:25 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, known to break stuff big time
Jun 11 20:53:38 <DocScrutinizer05> due to eternal lists of content to block
Jun 11 20:53:41 <tiss> well, crap
Jun 11 20:54:10 <tiss> lets see if removeing that helps
Jun 11 20:54:13 <DocScrutinizer05> we had the very same issue several months ago, for sure not this year
Jun 11 20:55:04 <tiss> alright, thanks again, lets see if that happens again
Jun 11 20:56:01 <freemangordon> Pali: any idea how to drop to shell from preinit? i created /bootmenu.sh, no use
Jun 11 20:56:18 <freemangordon> device resets with kbd open
Jun 11 20:56:50 <DocScrutinizer05> watchdog
Jun 11 20:57:17 <freemangordon> the point is I don't see the console
Jun 11 20:59:09 <DocScrutinizer05> tiss: https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2013-01-28.log.html#t2013-01-28T23:00:05
Jun 11 21:00:06 <Pali> freemangordon: you need to load fbon driver
Jun 11 21:00:17 <freemangordon> oh
Jun 11 21:00:21 <Pali> and also load correct keylayout
Jun 11 21:00:39 <Pali> and make sure that watchdog did not kick you
Jun 11 21:00:50 <freemangordon> I guess I don;t need anything specail to run fsck.ext3
Jun 11 21:00:54 <freemangordon> Pali: thanks
Jun 11 21:01:01 <Pali> do not use maemo fsck!
Jun 11 21:01:05 <DocScrutinizer05> tiss: https://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog/%23maemo.2012-11-18.log.html#t2012-11-18T20:49:45
Jun 11 21:01:12 <freemangordon> Pali: no option
Jun 11 21:01:17 <tiss> thanks friend
Jun 11 21:01:19 <Pali> dd to linux machine
Jun 11 21:01:23 <Pali> and run it there
Jun 11 21:01:36 <Pali> I had same problem and it totally damaged my /home
Jun 11 21:01:59 <Pali> use resuceOS to backup /home
Jun 11 21:02:07 <Pali> dd it via usb mass storage
Jun 11 21:02:16 <Pali> to have at least some backup
Jun 11 21:02:21 <freemangordon> ok
Jun 11 21:02:26 <freemangordon> ~rescueos
Jun 11 21:02:26 <infobot> [rescue-os] http://206.253.166.96/N900/rescueOS/
Jun 11 21:06:18 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: Pali: fsck is just as rogue as the cmdline parameters you give it on invokation
Jun 11 21:06:54 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, maybe maemo fsck version is a bit old
Jun 11 21:08:07 <DocScrutinizer05> and for sure you can't do huge fs repairs on N900, no matter which fsck version, due to missing free memory to keep those gigantic lists of inodes fsck sometimes needs to handle
Jun 11 21:09:24 <DocScrutinizer05> but I honestly doubt maemo fsck is fubar and inevitably breaks fs no matter what's the problem of the fs and the way you use fsck
Jun 11 21:17:28 <kerio> it fucked up perfectly working filesystems all the... hm, 3 times i used it
Jun 11 21:18:14 <kerio> no, 4
Jun 11 21:24:31 <freemangordon> does rescueos has charger script?
Jun 11 21:26:22 <Pali> freemangordon: yes
Jun 11 21:26:50 <Pali> kerio, freemangordon, DocScrutinizer05: is e2fsprogs from debian wheezy ok?
Jun 11 21:27:31 <freemangordon> Pali: tried to compile it, some missing dependencies and packaging failed
Jun 11 21:27:32 <DocScrutinizer05> why not?
Jun 11 21:27:50 <freemangordon> it depends on newer libblkid and libuuid
Jun 11 21:27:57 <freemangordon> (iirc)
Jun 11 21:28:13 <kerio> Pali: why not the latest stable? :(
Jun 11 21:28:43 <Pali> kerio: wheezy is last stable, isnt?
Jun 11 21:29:19 <kerio> no, i meant the latest stable version of e2fsprogs
Jun 11 21:29:26 <Pali> also same version is in testing and unstable
Jun 11 21:29:36 <Pali> only experimental has new version
Jun 11 21:30:18 <Pali> last version is 1.42.7 and debian has it in experimental
Jun 11 21:38:55 <oldtopman> Hey everyone, I just got a brand new (to me) n900 - where can I learn about the phone (esp. the package managers/sources)?
Jun 11 21:41:09 <sixwheeledbeast> oldtopman: http://wiki.maemo.org/Category:Beginners
Jun 11 21:41:11 <fw190> I have tried to find the list of candidates for HiFo but had no luck. Is there a place with the candidates list?
Jun 11 21:41:33 <fw190> I know that Chemist has jumped the ship
Jun 11 21:41:59 <oldtopman> sixwheeledbeast: Thanks much, I'll read those pages before I ask something stupid :P
Jun 11 21:42:18 <sixwheeledbeast> fw190: AFAIK GA and Chemist are candidates
Jun 11 21:42:46 <fw190> superb :) looks promissing but we need 3 to that tango
Jun 11 21:43:49 <sixwheeledbeast> correct
Jun 11 21:44:56 <fw190> if no one has spoted it maemo irc log is stuck on 6th :) 
Jun 11 21:45:22 <fw190> I tend to read the maemo-ssu and maemo logs every day
Jun 11 21:45:40 <fw190> so now I have nothing to read
Jun 11 21:45:52 <fw190> :)
Jun 11 21:49:01 <sixwheeledbeast> fw190: povbot is missing
Jun 11 21:50:02 <Pali> ~log
Jun 11 21:50:03 <infobot> it has been said that log is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog
Jun 11 21:50:04 <Pali> ~logs
Jun 11 21:50:05 <infobot> All conversations are logged to http://infobot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ Lines starting with spaces are not logged. Logs are updated daily.
Jun 11 21:50:47 <Pali> fw190: logs are on second link
Jun 11 21:50:50 <fw190> ah I didn't know that there are two logs
Jun 11 21:51:01 <fw190> I always checked the first one
Jun 11 21:51:09 <fw190> since a few yeras
Jun 11 21:51:15 <Pali> no, there are 3 logs :-)
Jun 11 21:51:19 <Pali> http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/maemo/
Jun 11 21:51:21 <sixwheeledbeast> the first one is better
Jun 11 21:51:58 <Pali> fw190: nslu2 has also live logs
Jun 11 21:52:53 <Pali> see also: https://wiki.maemo.org/IRC#Logs
Jun 11 21:55:27 <Pali> ~#maemo log is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog http://infobot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/maemo/
Jun 11 21:55:27 <infobot> ...but #maemo log is already something else...
Jun 11 21:55:29 <fw190> damn those habitts :) mg.pov.lt is my favorite
Jun 11 21:56:09 <Pali> ~#maemo no, log is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog http://infobot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/maemo/
Jun 11 21:56:09 <infobot> Pali: what are you talking about?
Jun 11 21:56:28 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: how to replace ~log?
Jun 11 21:59:58 <freemangordon> Pali: rescueos has latest released fsck
Jun 11 22:04:15 <sixwheeledbeast> Pali: I dont think the ~ is required
Jun 11 22:04:56 <Pali> infobot, no #maemo log is http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog http://infobot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/maemo/
Jun 11 22:04:56 <infobot> okay, Pali
Jun 11 22:04:59 <Pali> ~log
Jun 11 22:05:00 <infobot> somebody said log was http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog http://infobot.rikers.org/%23maemo/ http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/maemo/
Jun 11 22:05:09 <Pali> :-)
Jun 11 22:33:52 <DocScrutinizer05> wtf??
Jun 11 22:35:50 <DocScrutinizer05> >:-(
Jun 11 22:36:16 <kerio> ?
Jun 11 22:36:38 <Win7Mac> Hi, whazzup?
Jun 11 22:36:53 <DocScrutinizer05> madness as usual
Jun 11 22:37:42 <DocScrutinizer05> infobot: no, #maemo log is <reply>official maemo logs are at http://mg.pov.lt/maemo-irclog
Jun 11 22:37:42 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05: okay
Jun 11 22:37:58 <DocScrutinizer05> ~lock #maemo log
Jun 11 22:37:59 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05: locking factoid #maemo log
Jun 11 22:40:12 <Win7Mac> will it work again some day soon?
Jun 11 22:41:06 <DocScrutinizer05> as soon as marius gets to read his mail
Jun 11 22:42:00 <DocScrutinizer05> or we see another freenode netsplit, or rajaniemi.freenode.net goes down
Jun 11 22:46:39 <Win7Mac> hope marius gets to read his mail soon, it's broken since 5 days already :(
Jun 11 22:48:39 <Win7Mac> DocScrutinizer05, only got 1 answer to my mail yeterday... :(
Jun 11 23:22:55 <tiss> alright so
Jun 11 23:22:58 <tiss> i just installed cssu
Jun 11 23:23:01 <tiss> where are the features
Jun 11 23:23:12 <tiss> i'm in the main menu and portrait mode certainly isnt working
Jun 11 23:24:32 <ShadowJK> cssu-t doesn't add or change much
Jun 11 23:27:08 <tiss> oh, right, i had to conf in terminal
Jun 11 23:30:56 <Win7Mac> GeneralAntilles, dude, you're fast!
Jun 11 23:32:24 <GeneralAntilles> Win7Mac, sometimes. What in particular?
Jun 11 23:33:00 <GeneralAntilles> Ah, hehe.
Jun 11 23:33:06 <GeneralAntilles> All of 6 minutes!
Jun 11 23:33:14 <GeneralAntilles> Actually, I started about 40 minutes ago.
Jun 11 23:33:48 <tiss> hey by the way, can you install other cssu versions after installing the stable one?
Jun 11 23:34:24 <tiss> eg. if i wanted to try the thumb version, could i just install it normally or do i have to restore an earlier backup whre i didn't have any cssu yet?
Jun 11 23:35:55 <Win7Mac> I read you Created page with "This page lists every candidate..." just when this came in on tmo: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1351302#post1351302
Jun 11 23:35:57 <brzys> Hi guyz, is there way to lock screen in the landscape?
Jun 11 23:37:10 <GeneralAntilles> Win7Mac, lucky timing. :D
Jun 11 23:37:35 <Win7Mac> ;)
Jun 11 23:53:39 <Win7Mac> GeneralAntilles, probably consider a pm to khm?
Jun 11 23:55:04 * GeneralAntilles hems and haws.
Jun 11 23:55:47 <Win7Mac> hehe...
Jun 12 00:50:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't think khm has sufficient karma
Jun 12 00:59:55 <DocScrutinizer05> in http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1270698&postcount=59 http://talk.maemo.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=28751&d=1348332102  I can't spot maier, khm, or karmaflux
Jun 12 01:01:26 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/profile/view/karmaflux/ gives karma:29
Jun 12 01:03:33 <DocScrutinizer05> if somebody thinks we need to calculate current karma manually since it might result in >100 when we do, please contact woody about it, since he knows what's missing currently in karma calculation and can add those values manually
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 12 02:59:58 2013