**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 17 02:59:58 2013 Jun 17 09:19:28 Bambi_BOFH: you also might want to have a look at: Jun 17 09:19:31 ~jrtools Jun 17 09:19:32 extra, extra, read all about it, jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Jun 17 09:20:25 there's a command how to basically turn off rotation completely Jun 17 09:21:21 while still allowing it for apps that intentionally do portrait, like dialer (when set accordingly in dialer's settings menu) Jun 17 09:56:49 my n900 hung up completely, and i had to take out the battery to get it to restart Jun 17 09:57:06 now almost none of my icons are visible. has anyone had a similar issue? Jun 17 09:57:22 I had such problem once maybe twice Jun 17 09:57:30 did you touch voltages on CPU? Jun 17 09:58:20 WizardNumberNext: no Jun 17 09:58:34 never changed any clocks or voltages Jun 17 09:58:40 SmartReflex? Jun 17 09:59:09 that's the potentially unstable power-saving feature right? Jun 17 09:59:30 n900 have at least two (I remeber two of them) watchdogs, so it should reset itself Jun 17 10:00:01 usualy SR is stable up to 600MHz Jun 17 10:00:27 anything beyond and SR might cause spontaneous resets Jun 17 10:00:51 I am running on SR almoist from start Jun 17 10:01:05 but I locked mine to 600MHz Jun 17 10:02:44 250MHz is stilling your battery, as going to sleep and waking up takes twice as much time, and work takes twice as much as on 500MHz, so in the end it doesn't improve battery life, but worsen it Jun 17 10:03:00 so get rid of 250MHz Jun 17 10:03:05 WizardNumberNext: i think i experimented with smartreflex but i can't remember whether i left it on or off Jun 17 10:03:09 how do i check? Jun 17 10:03:16 I find mine to be most power-efficient at 600MHz Jun 17 10:03:20 i know it's been running fine for weeks Jun 17 10:03:42 it is somewhere in /proc I think Jun 17 10:03:50 or /sys/power Jun 17 10:04:07 need to connect to wireless to check Jun 17 10:04:29 but first I need to make my "morning" green tea Jun 17 10:05:28 bbs Jun 17 10:17:05 WizardNumberNext: sorry, that's nonsense Jun 17 10:17:40 DocScrutinizer05: which one? Jun 17 10:18:28 my brain is still sleeping, so please forgive me for any nonsense Jun 17 10:18:42 WizardNumberNext: freq governor should be quite sensibly tuned to use 250 only when it has better power balance than run-to-idle @ 600MHz Jun 17 10:19:50 and locking CPU to 600MHz is what IvanS. HW-ChiefDesigner of Nokia explicitly said you MUST NOT (2119) do since it fries the CPU Jun 17 10:20:00 Doc don't you think that n900 is sleeping most of its life? I am not trying to argue, but trying to find reason why you think that Jun 17 10:20:19 yes I read this one Jun 17 10:20:25 no, e.g. during a call CPU is never sleeping at all Jun 17 10:21:49 wait I do not remember, whether during call CPUs freq is scaled or locked Jun 17 10:22:04 so a 30min call will most likely fry your device, due to thermal design capacity and also CPU livetime <15kh at *80°C* (iirc) if CPU is 10°C hotter then this goes down by factors Jun 17 10:22:44 never did Jun 17 10:22:56 500MHz is nominal mac CPU clock, 600 is factory overdrive Jun 17 10:23:10 max* Jun 17 10:23:46 locking CPU clock to overdrive is a +really* BAD THING[TM] to do Jun 17 10:26:02 WizardNumberNext: you're free to experiment how much you can tune your car err N900, and suffer breakdowns as many as you can afford. But please don't suggest it's a sane thing to do for others who maybe don't understand the risk Jun 17 10:26:07 WizardNumberNext, DocScrutinizer05: i did test smartreflex a couple of times, but never changed any config files to make it permenant Jun 17 10:26:15 nor have i changed any frequencies Jun 17 10:26:26 any idea how to make my icons come back? Jun 17 10:27:34 BCMM: SR allegedly has hw flaws which might cause glitches under certain conditions. It's deprecated by Nokia afaik, maybe due to silicon error, maybe due to PCB layout or circuit design error Jun 17 10:27:58 however we never heard SR will kill your hw, it's just considered instable Jun 17 10:28:16 OC however *IS* killing your device, sooner or later Jun 17 10:28:56 I really get upsaet every time I hear sb saying "I OC since years and *so far* *my* device survived that" Jun 17 10:28:56 DocScrutinizer05: i know, haven't OCed it for that reason Jun 17 10:29:29 and locking device to >500MHz is a really nasty OC mode Jun 17 10:29:36 and a silly one too Jun 17 10:35:58 (( 250MHz is stilling your battery, as going to sleep and waking up takes twice as much time, and work takes twice as much as on 500MHz, so in the end it doesn't improve battery life, but worsen it)) incorrect since a) going to sleep doesn't take much time anyway, since with zeroclock there's no overhead in "going to sleep" it's simply switching off components in CPU that are waiting. But anyway whatever overhead might Jun 17 10:36:00 be involved with "going to sleep" the point of 250MHz is it doesn't do that at all, or at least way less frequently, e.g when playing mp3 Jun 17 10:37:10 in the end is still worsen battery life Jun 17 10:37:15 It's a design parody when you have to downclock your CPU for mp3 usage because the DSP is so inefficient. Jun 17 10:37:16 and this is main point Jun 17 10:37:21 and the equation is still made up since it's not about duration/time of anything but about joule the whole process consumes Jun 17 10:37:49 teotwaki: eh? Jun 17 10:38:12 well, using the DSP keeps the CPU alive, no? Jun 17 10:38:38 so you can't efficiently use the DSP when you're only playing mp3s, because it's more efficient to use the CPU alone? Jun 17 10:38:42 At least, that's what I remember. Jun 17 10:39:05 then 500MHz Must be more efficient, then 250MHz, as leakage current is same on both 250MHz and 500MHz, but voltage is slightly changed Jun 17 10:39:16 and regarding joule per process it's not that simple to say anything takes twice as long so it is twice as power hungry since the whole point of lower clock is lower poser consumption at lower clock rates Jun 17 10:40:02 teotwaki: the DSP is not ideally set up and routed hw wise for mp3 playback Jun 17 10:40:10 yes, but you still forget about leackage current, which isn't involved in computation, so is pure waste Jun 17 10:40:16 you can't run PA on DSP Jun 17 10:40:26 DocScrutinizer05: so as I said, it's a design parody :) Jun 17 10:40:53 leakage current is the same for zeroclock and 900MHz Jun 17 10:41:07 and that is the point! Jun 17 10:41:22 so what? Jun 17 10:41:32 WizardNumberNext: you have an amazing ability to make a point, then flip it around 180 degrees to prove something else. Jun 17 10:41:48 then 250MHz simply cannot be more power-efficient, then 500MHz Jun 17 10:41:57 meh Jun 17 10:41:57 than* Jun 17 10:42:52 and since it's not raining outside my bank account simply can't be in the negatives Jun 17 10:42:54 and 500MHz enables you to do task twice as fast, so CPU can sleep twice as long Jun 17 10:43:09 DocScrutinizer05: eh? Jun 17 10:43:25 SO WHAT when it draws same leakage current while sleeping?? Jun 17 10:43:37 WizardNumberNext: but if the CPU uses twice as much power to run twice as fast, that's a null operation. Jun 17 10:43:39 teotwaki: exactly Jun 17 10:43:45 teotwaki: I think that rain and bank was about my consideration about cpu power Jun 17 10:44:10 and looking at how CPUs scale, I doubt doubling the frequency results in *only* doubling the power usage. Jun 17 10:44:18 but then is sleeping twice as long taking almost no power Jun 17 10:44:32 and CPU is not using twice the power but maybe 3 times the power at double clock speed Jun 17 10:44:37 teotwaki - it is more than double Jun 17 10:44:46 teotwaki: exactly, again Jun 17 10:45:25 so running at 500Mhz for mp3 playback is idiotic. Jun 17 10:45:51 anyway most today's CPUs are running on too big voltage anyway Jun 17 10:45:59 uhuh Jun 17 10:46:11 for instance - nokia gives us 60 at 600MHz Jun 17 10:46:17 I been running on 48 Jun 17 10:46:23 your greenpeace consultant told you that? Jun 17 10:46:42 AMD gives us 1.45v on 3.6GHz - it is sufficient for 4.0GHz Jun 17 10:47:22 You do realise that voltage has little to do with power usage, right? Jun 17 10:47:55 sure, since AMD only hires idiots from mental house to do ther power profile evaluations Jun 17 10:48:10 and in case of Phenom II 1090T I even don't know, because I favour CPU-NB clock, not CPU clock Jun 17 10:48:55 "ZOMG, that cable has 1 billion volts on it" "Yeah, but it only gives out 1 nano amp, so total power output is 1W". Jun 17 10:48:56 it's just that they have other aims regarding device stability and reliability than you obviously are willing to tolerate Jun 17 10:49:03 AMD always was either lowering clock or raise votage to be perfectly sure their chips will always deliver even on poorly designed power supplys Jun 17 10:49:55 yeah sure Jun 17 10:50:02 powersuplies, suure Jun 17 10:50:03 man I am running kernel, which was compiled entirielly in RAM - that is quite good test for stability Jun 17 10:50:23 that's nothing Jun 17 10:50:47 who the fuck is WizardNumberNext? Jun 17 10:50:51 you obviously have no clue about testing hw for stability Jun 17 10:51:03 Is he just some troll or something? Jun 17 10:51:49 i9f it comes to power supplies - ASUS M4N78 PRO - ma clock 3.7GHz/1.5v and even littlest step further and it becomes unstable. ASUS M5A97 - 4.0GHz perfectly stable with 1.45v Jun 17 10:51:53 just one of the zillion WFM followers Jun 17 10:52:12 or is he one of the government-conspiracy-crazies who happened to stumble upon a couple of hak5 episodes, and decided he was going to revolutionise the computing industry? Jun 17 10:52:26 oh boy there is a disagreement Jun 17 10:52:31 lets quickly start calling the other a troll and what not Jun 17 10:52:39 because THOSE are the real good arguments Jun 17 10:52:48 Lava_Croft: has nothing to do with disagreement, just the randomness of his topics. Jun 17 10:52:50 Lava_Croft: ack Jun 17 10:53:08 teotwaki: if you need to call him a troll of tinfoil hat crazy in order to beat his random statements Jun 17 10:53:12 i guess you just not good enough! Jun 17 10:53:15 teotwaki I think it might be very hard to revolutionize computing industry without few bilion us dollars Jun 17 10:53:25 stick to the facts! :) Jun 17 10:53:31 Lava_Croft: I'm not trying to beat him. Jun 17 10:53:51 Lava_Croft: he doesn't answer questions, just flows from topic to topic until he can get a raise out of one of us. Jun 17 10:54:16 protip: just stop talking to him then Jun 17 10:54:16 WizardNumberNext: as mentioned above, you just have different requirements/standards for your definition of "stable" Jun 17 10:54:44 Lava_Croft: wait, what, I'm not free to do whatever I want? OMG. Jun 17 10:54:52 eh? Jun 17 10:54:58 ZOMG, I'm not a pro! Jun 17 10:55:05 seriously I am going to do prime test some time iun future Jun 17 10:55:14 prime test? Jun 17 10:55:34 anyway normaly nobody is running such computational intesive task every day Jun 17 10:56:02 well, there might still be a bunch of bitcoin people hoping to get lucky on CPUs. Jun 17 10:56:14 in industry "stable" means that it works in full temperature range and full voltage range allowed and full signal distortion and S/N range on all manufacturing variances, with a defined very low MTBF Jun 17 10:56:23 lucky? in what way? Jun 17 10:56:52 WizardNumberNext: well, lucky in that CPU mining is all but pointless now. Jun 17 10:57:17 WizardNumberNext: look at GIMPS, last I checked they still had people running a lot of primality algorithms on CPUs. Jun 17 10:57:44 teotwaki - I might join some time in future Jun 17 10:58:10 ooh, I missed to add: on all CPU opcodes allowed, in all possible sequences of thos opcodes Jun 17 10:58:18 but then I would have to lower my CPU clock, as there is big enough chance for overheat Jun 17 10:58:57 doc: those undocumented too? Jun 17 10:59:13 anyway, 'later. Jun 17 10:59:52 so your RAM based kernel compilation at a certain moderate room temperature in a certain average condition, using ~95% of existing CPU opcodes, doesn't mean anything regarding how reasonable are CPU manufacturer's recommended operating conditions Jun 17 11:00:10 i think i can explain this Jun 17 11:00:17 if my bicycle has a flat tire and i repair it myself Jun 17 11:00:22 my testing takes 2 minutes Jun 17 11:00:27 if the tire doesnt run flat again, its fixt Jun 17 11:00:32 now if i was AMD and i fixed tires Jun 17 11:00:38 i would test each repaired tire for a week Jun 17 11:00:50 in every crazy near impossible scenario possible Jun 17 11:01:00 it seems WizardNumberNext does it my way Jun 17 11:01:22 and DocScrutinizer05 tries to explain that while it might work fine, its hardly a standard Jun 17 11:01:42 obviously, I am only one person, not thousands ;) Jun 17 11:01:43 am i far off? Jun 17 11:01:59 Nope. Jun 17 11:02:09 Well, a couple of miles, depends on whether your tyre is flat or not. Jun 17 11:02:25 and if it comes to standards, yes doc is right Jun 17 11:02:29 One of them argues that because he tested his tyre quickly, and it seemed fine, anyone could run it at 200PSI. Jun 17 11:02:39 what is a hak5? Jun 17 11:02:59 Doc explained that just bouncing it off the ground twice doesn't really prove it's going to withstand a hippo sitting on it. Jun 17 11:03:09 I was wondering about hak5 for while as well, but dropped it Jun 17 11:03:19 ~google hak5 Jun 17 11:03:26 is it like a gibson? Jun 17 11:03:28 ~useless Jun 17 11:03:29 * infobot starts crying and hides from teotwaki in the darkest corner of the room. :( Jun 17 11:03:35 ~ggl hak5 Jun 17 11:03:46 * teotwaki gives up. Jun 17 11:04:11 ~wiki hak5 Jun 17 11:04:14 I couldn't find a matching article in wikipedia, look for yerselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=hak5&go=Go Jun 17 11:04:25 http://hak5.org/ Jun 17 11:06:06 well, and while your analogy to tires is nice, what I try to say is not about hippos sitting on it but about tire manufacturer is obliged to make sure all his tires will not go flat even after 3 months Jun 17 11:06:13 for new tires Jun 17 11:06:18 yes Jun 17 11:06:22 which is kind of what i meant Jun 17 11:06:37 which is sth completely different to the WFM approach of somebody *fixing* his tire Jun 17 11:06:45 there is just a difference between what a single consumer might see as 'working fine' and what a big company sees as 'working fine' Jun 17 11:06:46 Actually, I've had loads of tyres going flat after couple days of usage. Jun 17 11:06:49 yup Jun 17 11:07:01 see, no need to call him a troll of tinfoil hat loony! Jun 17 11:07:03 er loonie* Jun 17 11:07:12 my goodness temperatures are ruining my typing Jun 17 11:09:08 teotwaki: I guess that's still tolerable since you can inflate it any time, and you notice it in the morning when starting your ride that it needs some more air. But when your tire would go flat all of a sudden (like a glitch in a CPU at 1+1=714) then you probbaly would shoot the manufacturer of that tire Jun 17 11:09:17 going to see WinAwe to playy some games Jun 17 11:09:52 suddenly goes flat when driving 120km/h Jun 17 11:09:55 Lava_Croft: I'll call anyone anything I want, thank you very much. Jun 17 11:10:05 teotwaki: i wasnt implying anything else Jun 17 11:10:11 there is no need to' Jun 17 11:10:19 is different from 'you arent allowed to' Jun 17 11:10:43 actually, that's exactly what it says, it just adds a very condescending tone to it. Jun 17 11:10:55 i cant help it how words sound to you Jun 17 11:11:13 i know what i said and my intentions with saying it, the rest is up to you Jun 17 11:11:30 maybe if you sit on your knees, you can let the negativity higher than your nose Jun 17 11:11:33 and you could drown in it! Jun 17 11:11:56 DocScrutinizer05: Actually, most slow leaks you get come from punctures or pinches, not defects. In my experience, defects usually come in the form of tyre simply not inflating, cap popping or catastrophic failure while riding. Jun 17 11:12:44 Lava_Croft: that's very offensive. I'm a small person. Jun 17 11:14:26 Anyway, as I said earlier, 'later. Jun 17 11:14:50 (also, am not a small person) Jun 17 11:16:15 whatever, back to initial topic: while anybody may suggest blocking 250MHz for allegedly better power saving, you MUST NOT suggest locking CPU to 600MHz since then I have to act about it. It's not allowed to suggest potentially damaging measures without clearly explaining the danger they come with Jun 17 11:19:59 isnt this more about people blindly doing what someone else suggests instead of about whatever random placebo someone comes up with Jun 17 11:21:18 no matter if it's about flooding the USB receptacle with 50ml superglue to allegedly reinforce it, about locking CPU to 600MHz to allegedly safe power (actually energy), or placing the device into oven @90°C to allegedly get higher charging to 130% of nominal capacity into battery. It's not allowed Jun 17 11:21:47 oh, i wasnt aware of channel rules surrounding such placebos :| Jun 17 11:21:48 not allowed to suggest it publicly without proper warning Jun 17 11:22:22 might not be unwise, given the insane amount of placebos there are for the n900 Jun 17 11:22:38 well, placebo is the wrong word, since a lot of them do cause trouble/damage Jun 17 11:23:02 s/safe/save/ Jun 17 11:23:45 that's the point Jun 17 11:24:03 "or placing the device into oven @90°C to allegedly get higher charging to 130% of nominal capacity" Jun 17 11:24:07 ^rofl, wat? Jun 17 11:24:19 vi__: the world if full of awesome SECRETS like that Jun 17 11:24:26 it's a simple transfer of repo contribution rules to general communication Jun 17 11:24:32 brb, microwaving my fone. Jun 17 11:25:26 The point at which cpu power use really rises on the n900 is above 600MHz. Jun 17 11:25:35 * DocScrutinizer05 hands vi__ a 50ml bottle of superglue Jun 17 11:25:55 heh, I already used electric glue. AKA solder. Jun 17 11:26:27 :-D Jun 17 11:26:42 i have this USB port that just wont break Jun 17 11:26:53 everytime i charge, i pry it a bit to see if its loose Jun 17 11:26:55 try harder. Jun 17 11:27:02 for the past nearly 4 years, nothing happened Jun 17 11:27:09 on 3 different n900s :D Jun 17 11:27:12 You are the only one! Jun 17 11:27:18 i have an N9 that fell apart Jun 17 11:27:22 i guess that was my punishment Jun 17 11:27:22 nope, here as well Jun 17 11:27:27 On saying that, none of my n900s have broken USB ports either. Jun 17 11:28:05 It is those stories you read where users say 'my n900 will only charge if I hold the cable in at an angle'. Jun 17 11:28:12 yes Jun 17 11:28:28 my n9's usb port is a bit iffy with that Jun 17 11:28:36 sometimes you need to tug the cable a bit to get it to make contact Jun 17 11:28:42 Lava_Croft: I'd think it's not exactly desirable to have a N9, but calling it a punishment is a little harsh ;-P Jun 17 11:28:43 damn finns cant assemble phones, i swear Jun 17 11:28:52 also, why would blocking 250MHz save you power? Jun 17 11:28:54 i mean it falling apart as punishment Jun 17 11:28:59 lol Jun 17 11:29:01 the n9 itself is really great, as a smartphone Jun 17 11:29:22 nothing feels better as a fulltouch phone than the n9 Jun 17 11:29:43 for a *phone* I tend to agree Jun 17 11:29:50 well, yeah, thats what it was meant to be Jun 17 11:29:52 a smartphone, not a MID Jun 17 11:29:56 I never considered my N900 a phone though Jun 17 11:30:01 same here Jun 17 11:30:10 its just my pocketPC only my PocketPC is a real PC Jun 17 11:30:13 :) Jun 17 11:30:32 but the n9 makes for a good phone-like phone Jun 17 11:30:48 camera is nice too Jun 17 11:31:01 no hdr tho, which is ridiculous Jun 17 11:31:30 On device HDR is over-rated. Jun 17 11:31:49 yes, and that's been the major conceptual flaw of N9/HARM - Nokia binned the NIT concept and moved on to "smartphone" which is an idea/concept that I actually hate Jun 17 11:31:57 there is really not a single N9 app to allow for HDR photography Jun 17 11:32:01 Especially ones that cannot take rapid sequences of shots. Jun 17 11:32:03 DocScrutinizer05: yes Jun 17 11:32:10 DocScrutinizer05: you saw the early concepts of Harmattan GUI right Jun 17 11:32:15 that looked like something i would really want Jun 17 11:32:29 then it changed to this highly stylized and very smooth but also totally limited Swipe stuff Jun 17 11:32:58 DocScrutinizer05: http://plaza.fi/s/f/editor/images/X-20121010223740579127.jpg Jun 17 11:32:58 :nod; Jun 17 11:33:07 i can still feel sad when i see that Jun 17 11:33:38 but meh, Nokia is basically done for in my book Jun 17 11:33:45 they dont have any products i would want Jun 17 11:33:54 well, id pay money for a new Booklet Jun 17 11:35:04 nobody wants to pay Nokia money to have Blue Screens of Death on their phones ;) Jun 17 11:35:26 stop living in the past Jun 17 11:35:34 BSoD is about as common these days as kernel panics on linux Jun 17 11:35:46 I havent had a single BSoD on my Win7 box ever since i installed win7 :) Jun 17 11:36:01 I just had one on my Windows 7 box like 5 days ago, so yeah Jun 17 11:36:04 heh Jun 17 11:36:11 well, i have kernel panics too, sometimes! :) Jun 17 11:36:23 still, nokia is using crippled software, yes Jun 17 11:36:30 i guess the whole world except Redmond agrees on that Jun 17 11:37:55 and even for a smartphone, the N9 (and sailfish?) is way too focused / placing emphasis on that sozial network stuff that I hate so much Jun 17 11:38:58 and sailfish even has the appshop on "screen4" - OMFG how insane is *that*? Jun 17 11:39:22 why not amazon? Jun 17 11:39:34 or youporn? Jun 17 11:40:22 or a single huge 911 call button Jun 17 11:41:14 simple! because that all wouldn't payback for Jolla Jun 17 11:43:21 jury still out on whether it's simple to change screen4 from appshop to xterm Jun 17 11:44:30 the fact that they don't make that an advertising point that it's possible to replace appshop on screen4 by $yourapp already makes me sad or rather reluctant Jun 17 11:46:13 and while we're at it, please let me replace the "feeds" (or whatever they call all that twitter/SMS/facebook/whatnot stuff on screen3) by good old xterm Jun 17 11:47:26 err xchat Jun 17 11:48:20 screen2: apmefo/catorize please Jun 17 11:48:32 screen1: hildon desktop Jun 17 11:49:16 incl min 4 screens, widgets, all Jun 17 11:50:01 the feeds screen is very nice Jun 17 11:50:12 overall the swipe system is the best smartphone GUI ive ever used Jun 17 11:50:23 my problem is just my previous device and my first ever 'smart' device, the n900 Jun 17 11:50:31 it just sets a standard that is hard to surpass Jun 17 11:50:58 anyone who i give my N9 to is someone who immediately likes the device Jun 17 11:51:22 except the broken 'system-ui' menu you have at the top of the screen, they can work with it right away Jun 17 11:51:36 and ill not mention how people touch the device itself Jun 17 11:51:47 sometimes you almost feel like wiping the device afterwards Jun 17 11:52:18 just dont compare it to Maemo5/n900 Jun 17 11:52:30 look at it as a smartphone and then notice all the maemo-ish stuff it has Jun 17 11:52:54 not good enough for me Jun 17 11:53:14 its my type of device, but its a maemo device after all Jun 17 11:53:24 er Jun 17 11:53:28 its not my type of device* Jun 17 11:53:42 it lacks HW keyb, no FM transmitter, no HW camera button Jun 17 11:54:21 but its still a smartphone that runs the near-same crazy mutant debian as the n900 Jun 17 11:54:34 aye, a hardware keyboard is pretty must for, well, anyone Jun 17 11:54:44 well, anyone in this channel maybe :) Jun 17 11:55:01 meh, hipsters can stick to their iPhones and whatnot :P Jun 17 11:55:08 but most for most people a HW keyboard = twice devices Jun 17 11:55:14 ;) Jun 17 11:55:23 well, it kind of works OK to use xterm on the N9 Jun 17 11:55:27 ashley: that's exactly what N9 is: a me-too-iPhone Jun 17 11:55:30 better than i expected, but its still a far cry from the n900 Jun 17 11:55:35 DocScrutinizer05: thats not true Jun 17 11:55:48 that is a false assumption concerning the N9 Jun 17 11:55:50 I still remember the Nokia 9210 Communicator...one of the best phones I've ever owned (kinda hard to pick which one is better, that or the N900 :P) Jun 17 11:56:03 its a smartphone, but its built from a much different perspective/philosophy than the iphone Jun 17 11:56:20 well, the N9 has seemed to me like Nokia's take on (beating) iPhone -- I dunno about the internal philosophies and whatnot Jun 17 11:56:25 but the days that nokia devices with HW keyboards were the devives that kids dreamt about are just over Jun 17 11:56:36 probably forever Jun 17 11:56:51 and don't get me wrong, the N9 is a relatively nifty device, I just wish it had a better, user-replaceable battery Jun 17 11:56:53 it would have made no sense for nokia to create another HW keyb device, no matter how much you and i want one Jun 17 11:57:00 no shit about the battery Jun 17 11:57:03 or the USB door Jun 17 11:57:11 or the fact that the camera module tends to start tearing up the shell Jun 17 11:57:13 don't get me started what I think about what kids dream of Jun 17 11:57:17 by splitting it open, very slowly Jun 17 11:57:30 or the fact that the film covering the shell just tears off Jun 17 11:57:30 the N9, imo, could've been something, but it was a pretty solid foundation for what could've been. Jun 17 11:57:35 no matter how well you treat the device Jun 17 11:57:40 shit just chips off Jun 17 11:58:07 the N9 is a clear indication that Nokia could have made it fine without Windows Phone Jun 17 11:58:15 damn right Jun 17 11:58:15 and still be able to make both the smartphones and the MIDs Jun 17 11:58:39 im not a brand type person, but when you think of Elop saying Meego wasnt ready Jun 17 11:58:51 and then looking at the WP7 software running on my brother's HTC device Jun 17 11:59:00 i get a little agitated Jun 17 11:59:16 and wonder if that was ready Jun 17 11:59:26 Lava_Croft: you could imagine how I felt when I saw that the N9 could actually read Office files out of the box Jun 17 11:59:27 oh well, not a day for agitation! Jun 17 11:59:44 rikanee: imagine how i felt when i saw no support for internet radio in mediaplyer on n9 Jun 17 11:59:49 :P Jun 17 12:00:18 ehh, well, regression from Maemo 5 ;) Jun 17 12:00:21 theres gaping holes in harmattan on the n9, but its just so special :) Jun 17 12:00:26 and so Nokia Jun 17 12:00:43 hardware and sofware as a complete package Jun 17 12:00:43 Lava_Croft: really? imo all I lack is games, really. Jun 17 12:00:55 i dont really play games on it, my wife has an iphone and we have a nexus7 Jun 17 12:00:56 (an IR transmitter would be handy, but alas) Jun 17 12:01:17 i beat oregon trail on n900 and thats about it:) Jun 17 12:01:24 Harmattan lacks speed dialing function -- that was quite a surprise to me at least, since like most Nokia phones have had that basic & essential feature Jun 17 12:01:31 SMS, calls, media player, video, camera, office, Linux shell, what more? Jun 17 12:01:33 meh, I wish all friggin appliances finally moved on and binned IR in favor of BT Jun 17 12:01:39 i dont use speed dial, i do use the shortcut menu a lot to get to the phone Jun 17 12:01:46 you know, half-pull up the screen Jun 17 12:02:12 don't you feel like getting trolled each time you need to point at your TV with that IR remote? Jun 17 12:02:15 DocScrutinizer05: i reckon the cost of IR is a fraction of BT Jun 17 12:02:39 and hihi playing with IR remotes Jun 17 12:02:41 yeah, maybe half Jun 17 12:02:45 you remember those watches from back in zee day Jun 17 12:02:52 yes, got one Jun 17 12:02:56 god that was fun Jun 17 12:03:04 then we got those universal remotes Jun 17 12:03:11 those had a way more powerful transmitter Jun 17 12:04:45 nah CIR is soooo 70s Jun 17 12:05:51 and you can't find a single friggin TV using BT, WLAN, or just 443MHz remote Jun 17 12:06:20 ha, my aunt had a tv with ultrasonic remote Jun 17 12:06:48 so when your TV is placed on the floor you need to lift the remote from table each time you want to send a command to TV Jun 17 12:06:59 ultrasonic is 60s Jun 17 12:07:16 it was a color tv tho.. which wasnt so common here in 60s Jun 17 12:07:35 yeah, ok, make that 80s and 70s then Jun 17 12:07:52 while in the 50s they had cable remote Jun 17 12:07:54 ;-P Jun 17 12:07:54 prolly 70s.. it was early 90s or late 80s when i saw it Jun 17 12:08:04 ive seen cable remotes too, but in 80s stuff Jun 17 12:09:26 yeah, my Akai GX635 had a remote 11pin DIN plug, which I built a remote with nice keys and 12m cable for Jun 17 12:09:49 been ~1980 Jun 17 12:14:43 anyway, *my* gta04 specs from times back with Openmoko had a 4xx/8xx transceiver ;-D Jun 17 12:15:01 a pity OM never came to manufacture that device Jun 17 12:16:00 (it also had an bidir IR interface) Jun 17 12:16:48 both CIR and IrDA Jun 17 12:17:11 optimized for CIR Jun 17 12:17:28 and IrDA just dual-use Jun 17 12:20:14 reminds me to move that N904 ML thread to tmo and add Nikolaus' answer Jun 17 12:24:12 >>Since I read between your words that nobody from the N900 community has done it yet, I am not sure if we can do it better in reasonable time and missing big budget. I would be happy if anyone proves me wrong by working on it and showing tangible results. I think this community will then try to help as good as possible. Jun 17 12:24:14 Nikolaus Jun 17 12:24:15 PS: if someone wants donate me a N900 I can take a look inside.<< Jun 17 12:25:30 DocScrutinizer05: will the RX-GTA05 base board be compatible straight up with N900 peripheral devices, or will I need to buy new ones? Jun 17 12:25:51 sorry? Jun 17 12:26:33 which peripheral devices? Jun 17 12:30:50 DocScrutinizer05: LCD, camera, magnet sensor, keyboard, etc Jun 17 12:31:06 errr Jun 17 12:31:32 in my book (main) camera and hw kbd are part of the mainboard Jun 17 12:31:33 from what I've been reading on the IRC, it's all-new electronics that happen to fit into the N900 shell Jun 17 12:31:57 and for now it's nothing but just an idea Jun 17 12:32:48 the current gta04 board has a option to connect hw kbd and camera Jun 17 12:33:22 for the N900 replacement PCB I'd expect those components the be part of the basic kit Jun 17 12:33:41 particularly kbd Jun 17 12:34:21 the magnet sensor (compass) I have no particular opinion Jun 17 12:35:44 probably a nice-to-have as integrated part of base PCB, since the manufacturing and BOM is just a few cents to max two or three EUR higher, while later addition is almost impossible Jun 17 12:38:11 to make it utterly clear I'd expect such N904 to be able to run maemo5/fremantle with only minimal tweaks Jun 17 12:38:32 DocScrutinizer05: basically, have as many fun things as possible on-board, to extend the fun you'll have with the device. Jun 17 12:38:42 yep Jun 17 12:39:32 such a device would be ~600EUR min anyway, I guess. So not much sense in saving a 5 bucks for a nice feature like compass, eh? Jun 17 12:39:42 ++ Jun 17 12:40:13 DocScrutinizer05: compass, nice nav chips, Hirose connectors for all the radios, etc. Jun 17 12:40:18 (600) we might get it cheaper if actually >1000 users would preorder Jun 17 12:49:18 http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/downloads/48/ Jun 17 13:00:33 for the minimal-tweaks statement above, it remains to get evaluated how easily we can replace core closed blobs like the ISI libs for acces/interface to modem Jun 17 13:02:49 so, while I seem to recall stskeeps made fremantle run on a beagleboard quite some years ago, a *comprehensive* port of maemo5/fremantle incl all "peripheral" functions like modem, BT, whatever is for sure a demanding project Jun 17 13:03:47