**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 26 02:59:58 2013
Jun 26 04:42:14 <DocScrutinizer05> tbh that's just because all the manufacturers are silly and think they can patent their GUI, rather than offer a truly open GUI to user
Jun 26 04:44:38 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd build a GUI that simply can recognize arbitrary gestures and user can assign a certain makro to each gesture, let's call that customization or user defined skin. Add to that a few desktops that can take arbitrary widgets and you're done. "SWIPE? Hell no! that's my customization of MyDesktop!"
Jun 26 05:34:01 <DocScrutinizer05> allow 1, 2, and 3-dimensional graphs with arbitrary sensor input incl first and 2nd derivative against the other dimensions, for each coordinate of such graphs. Then define areas that such graphs have to stay inside (obviously for 0 order derivative of time such gesture detection is a bit meaningless, since it would allow a gesture only at one certain moment, while 2st order allows to define gestures of a certain range of duration)
Jun 26 05:35:20 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, that stuff in brackets been BS for second half, the 1st order derivative of time is a constant
Jun 26 05:36:04 <DocScrutinizer05> we actually need to allow absolute and relative for all dimensions I guess
Jun 26 07:22:47 <Shapeshifter> Is there any way of making the n900 autoconnect to WPA enterprise wlans (other than pthimon/autoconnect from github which has to be compiled and requires qt-mobility)?
Jun 26 07:24:13 <Shapeshifter> And how can I scan for available networks on the cli as well as connect to networks from the cli?
Jun 26 07:24:31 <Shapeshifter> Then I could just script a cron job
Jun 26 07:25:07 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm
Jun 26 07:25:33 <DocScrutinizer05> sth around ICD2
Jun 26 07:27:27 <DocScrutinizer05> I have a WLAN-off/on queenbeecon, and I know somewhere in wiki next to usb connectivity or tethering/BT-PAN there's sth mentioned regarding priority of connections used
Jun 26 07:28:01 <DocScrutinizer05> iwconfig scan; to start with?
Jun 26 07:31:14 <DocScrutinizer05> check phonecontrol, it also might have sth
Jun 26 07:32:49 <DocScrutinizer05> and finally, the usual advice: dbus-monitor both buses and then select disconnect from current network and pick a new network in the GUI
Jun 26 08:27:12 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: thanks, I'll check out those things.
Jun 26 08:27:20 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: what's your opinion on smart reflex?
Jun 26 08:35:23 <DocScrutinizer05> Shapeshifter: I'm very reluctant to use it, since I still don't think it is a huge achievement regarding power conservation, and the saying is that SR is instable on hw level
Jun 26 08:36:05 <DocScrutinizer05> my top priority is a rock solid stable phone
Jun 26 08:37:04 <DocScrutinizer05> and I'm charging once per day anyway, while - when I go to tablet mode (GSM disabled) - my device has a standby time of ~5 days, *without* SR
Jun 26 08:37:21 <DocScrutinizer05> so why should I use it? I wouldn't even notice the difference
Jun 26 08:41:54 <DocScrutinizer05> this however is applicable for my very own usage pattern that doesn't include much of mp3 listening, gameplay, or any other non-internet-related usage. So each time my CPU awakes, it does so when the modem already burned a magnitudes higher quantum of energy for transmitting/acknowledging data
Jun 26 08:42:06 <DocScrutinizer05> YMMV
Jun 26 08:43:06 <DocScrutinizer05> some tests I recently read seem to suggest that power savings by SR&certain undervolting/overclocking profiles during mp3 playback might be up to 16%
Jun 26 08:44:05 <DocScrutinizer05> for me this wouldn't be a convincing argument even when I'd listen to mp3 all day long
Jun 26 08:44:17 <DocScrutinizer05> again YMMV
Jun 26 08:46:39 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: Do you think it's true that an old SIM card (bad connectors) could impact battery life? 
Jun 26 08:47:30 <DocScrutinizer05> in theory yes, but that's a really bizarre scenario
Jun 26 08:48:15 <DocScrutinizer05> kinda like "it's possible to build a AM radio with a cooking pot and a spoon"
Jun 26 08:51:25 <DocScrutinizer05> let me put it this way: as long as you don't notice other problems (like missing connectivity or "no SIM detected"), it's hard to come up with a story how the SIM and bad contacts there would have any impact on your battery standby time
Jun 26 09:00:14 <DocScrutinizer05> Shapeshifter: sorry, iwlist scan
Jun 26 09:00:21 <DocScrutinizer05> not iwconfig
Jun 26 09:01:17 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: well I do get "no sim detected" from time to time but I'd suspect the chips coming of the pcb or something...
Jun 26 09:01:20 <DocScrutinizer05> actually >> iwlist wlan0 scan << is the better 
Jun 26 09:01:59 <DocScrutinizer05> Shapeshifter: check *#06# as soon as you encounter 2no sim detected"
Jun 26 09:02:36 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: I'll remember that. I don't have iwlist on my n900...
Jun 26 09:02:39 <Shapeshifter> or so it seems
Jun 26 09:02:41 <DocScrutinizer05> this shall display you IMEI if the modem still working
Jun 26 09:03:13 <DocScrutinizer05> Shapeshifter: iwlist might be from a supplementary pkg which you need to install
Jun 26 09:06:34 <Shapeshifter> By the way I have another annoying problem. The notes application doesn't auto-save and doesn't load the previous notes file after a reboot. I.e. I have to manually save the notes or else they are lost when the phone shuts down and I also have to manually load the notes file, since Notes opens with an empty notes file.
Jun 26 09:07:57 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm
Jun 26 09:08:52 <DocScrutinizer05> tbh I despise notes app, so I dunno how it works nowadays and if that changed "officially"
Jun 26 09:09:27 <DocScrutinizer05> or if there's a catch how you shall handle storing and opening of texts
Jun 26 09:09:43 <DocScrutinizer05> isn't this the shit that stores the textx in tracker?
Jun 26 09:10:40 <DocScrutinizer05> if that's true, than any changes you done to tracker config might have caused that issue
Jun 26 09:10:46 <DocScrutinizer05> then*
Jun 26 09:12:24 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: mh, no I think it stores it in a text file in .documents
Jun 26 09:12:36 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: what do you use for quick notes?
Jun 26 09:12:52 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: I sometimes simply use vim but I haven't configured it for autosaving. I could do that. simple enough
Jun 26 09:14:02 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: it's quite odd I can't find iwlist/iwconfig. They're not installed. There's an iw package in the repos but it's a different tool and can't scan (operation not supported -95).
Jun 26 09:15:24 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: And I can't find a matching package via dpkg -S
Jun 26 09:15:45 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: could you please run whereis iwconfig so I can at least know the right path where it's supposed to be?
Jun 26 09:18:06 <DocScrutinizer05> all iw* tools in /sbin/
Jun 26 09:18:09 <Shapeshifter> >.> dpkg -S iwconfig only shows me a bunch of man pages in the man-db-pages package.
Jun 26 09:18:22 <Shapeshifter> strange. 
Jun 26 09:18:39 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: does dpkg -S /sbin/iwconfig give you any output?
Jun 26 09:19:38 <DocScrutinizer05> wireless-tools: /sbin/iwconfig
Jun 26 09:20:29 <DocScrutinizer05> wireless-tools:
Jun 26 09:20:30 <DocScrutinizer05>   Installed: 30~pre7-1.3maemo+0m5
Jun 26 09:20:39 <DocScrutinizer05>         500 https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ Packages
Jun 26 09:21:24 <DocScrutinizer05> CAN ANYBODY PLEASE FIX apt-cache?!? So it shows whole URL and not only base URL
Jun 26 09:22:04 <DocScrutinizer05> Shapeshifter: I bet it's nokia's tools repo
Jun 26 09:24:21 <Shapeshifter> mh...
Jun 26 09:24:48 <Shapeshifter> Isn't that repo offline?
Jun 26 09:26:05 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Wireless_Tools
Jun 26 09:27:05 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: thanks!
Jun 26 09:27:57 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/repositories.install
Jun 26 09:28:07 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/devtools/maemo5#Installation
Jun 26 09:29:09 <DocScrutinizer05> beware, my .install installs THREE repos, you might want to delete two of them in HAM catalogs after you clicked on the .install
Jun 26 09:29:10 <DocScrutinizer05> see
Jun 26 09:29:13 <DocScrutinizer05> ~jrtools
Jun 26 09:29:14 <infobot> methinks jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
Jun 26 09:31:01 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: Mh. I get "Err https://downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ Release" and later "W: GPG error: http//downloads.maemo.nokia.com ./ Release: The following signatures were invalid: KEYEXPIRED ..." when doing apt-get update. There still must be something wrong with my repos...
Jun 26 09:31:24 <Shapeshifter> I searched the forum and I guess it has something to do with the dns migration away from Nokia but I can't find a solution...
Jun 26 09:31:54 <DocScrutinizer05> no, that's the well known fsckng exired nokia signature key
Jun 26 09:32:16 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: so it's a non critical warning?
Jun 26 09:32:23 <DocScrutinizer05> most easy workaround I heard of: set your system date to 2012-01-01 temporarily
Jun 26 09:32:28 <Shapeshifter> >.>
Jun 26 09:32:53 <DocScrutinizer05> if that's a showstopper anyway - I think it's only a warning
Jun 26 09:33:09 <DocScrutinizer05> please report about your findings
Jun 26 09:33:20 <DocScrutinizer05> so next time I have better info to share
Jun 26 09:34:21 <DocScrutinizer05> I *think* "W:"  means "noncritical Warning"
Jun 26 09:34:57 <DocScrutinizer05> it just lowers trustlevel of that source
Jun 26 09:36:08 <DocScrutinizer05> so you couldn't replace or update packages that been formerly installed to your system from same repo when the key was valid, since then the notorious "third party policy" would forbid replacing the existing package by a lower-trusted version
Jun 26 09:36:39 <DocScrutinizer05> for fresh installs however it shouldn't matter AIUI
Jun 26 09:38:05 <Shapeshifter> DocScrutinizer05: nah I don't mind the warning. In any case, installing wireless-tools from the tools repo worked. thanks
Jun 26 09:38:22 <Lava_Croft> is there actually a mirror for http://repo.pub.meego.com/
Jun 26 09:42:01 <DocScrutinizer05> Shapeshifter: thanks for reporting
Jun 26 09:42:42 <DocScrutinizer05> Lava_Croft: ask on #harmattan, over there the info is more up to date
Jun 26 09:50:26 <Shapeshifter> whohoo! it's quite easy to connect to WPA2 (even enterprise) from the cli without having to mess with iw* tools by running "dbus-send --system --type=method_call --dest=com.nokia.icd /com/nokia/icd com.nokia.icd.connect string:"IAP_ID" uint32:0" with an IAP_ID found in gconftool. Nice.
Jun 26 09:53:19 <Shapeshifter> now if I could monitor wlancond scans using dbus-scripts, that would be brilliant...
Jun 26 09:56:09 <Shapeshifter> it's also funny that the WPA auth passwords are stored in gconf as plain text ...
Jun 26 09:56:12 <Shapeshifter> great job Nokia
Jun 26 09:56:19 <Shapeshifter> as always
Jun 26 10:05:25 <DocScrutinizer05> well, how else would you stpore them?
Jun 26 10:05:54 <DocScrutinizer05> you need the plaintext password, everything else doesn't work for authenticating against any AP
Jun 26 10:06:59 <DocScrutinizer05> or are you referring to that insane "concept" to obfuscate the local password store so that hackers still easily can read it out but *user* can't read it anymore without using hackertools?
Jun 26 10:09:05 <divVerent> Shapeshifter: not much secure on iPhone :P
Jun 26 10:09:20 <divVerent> Shapeshifter: iPhone encrypts it with LOTS OF KEYS which are stored in plain on the device itself
Jun 26 10:09:39 <divVerent> the only security there is - and which the N900 maybe should do - is encrypting it with the lock code (indirectly)
Jun 26 10:09:54 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, something has to be "plain text", if only it's the algo for rot13 ;-P
Jun 26 10:09:54 <divVerent> however, look at your lock code and how easily it is guessed...
Jun 26 10:10:04 <divVerent> most people use just a few digits
Jun 26 10:10:19 <DocScrutinizer05> since after all eventually some app needs the plaintext password back to use it
Jun 26 10:10:27 <divVerent> you actually can brute force the lock code ON a jailbroken iPhone in a few mins
Jun 26 10:10:39 <divVerent> it only takes so long because the CPU is so slow :P
Jun 26 10:11:00 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: well, encrypting by the lock code is SOMETHING... but really not much
Jun 26 10:11:08 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, all that is not meant to protect a device against real attacks
Jun 26 10:11:11 <divVerent> it also would mean the freshly booted, not yet unlocked, phone would not connect to a WLAN
Jun 26 10:11:31 <divVerent> one can argue whether that would be good or bad, there is arguments for both sides
Jun 26 10:11:45 <DocScrutinizer05> if you want a secure device, you'll need cryptfs
Jun 26 10:11:54 <divVerent> sort of
Jun 26 10:11:58 <divVerent> as I said... iPhone does all that
Jun 26 10:12:02 <divVerent> yet isn't much secure
Jun 26 10:12:09 <divVerent> it all stands or falls with the security of the unlock code
Jun 26 10:12:16 <DocScrutinizer05> and even that doesn't help against device getting stolen in uncrypted/unlocked state
Jun 26 10:12:17 <divVerent> and nobody uses a long code there
Jun 26 10:12:51 <divVerent> for most devices: because on screen keyboard sucks, so all people use is few digits or a pattern (similar security)
Jun 26 10:13:02 <divVerent> for N900: because nokia didn't implement keyboard password entry :P
Jun 26 10:13:04 <DocScrutinizer05> you however can implement a erase-all function that kicks in on too many false unlock tries
Jun 26 10:13:13 <divVerent> not really...
Jun 26 10:13:16 <divVerent> on iOS, yes
Jun 26 10:13:23 <divVerent> this is the main thing what the cryptfs is for
Jun 26 10:13:35 <divVerent> so "wiping" the device is a single sector write to clear the key
Jun 26 10:13:48 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Jun 26 10:14:14 <divVerent> but it is true, the N900 really offers no security for passwords at all... not even pseudo security like iOS :P
Jun 26 10:14:24 <divVerent> which is why I did a hack to make modest never store email passwords to disk
Jun 26 10:14:51 <divVerent> the gconf files contain the empty string for the password, and before using modest, I run a shell script remounting this dir as a ramdisk, copying the files in, and asking and inserting the passwords
Jun 26 10:15:18 <divVerent> same hack probably can be applied to WLAN too
Jun 26 10:16:23 <divVerent> the only actually somewhat secure device is the Blackberry
Jun 26 10:16:52 <divVerent> and even that (at least the Bold 9000) I can "crack open" with a little help from the owner...
Jun 26 10:17:06 <divVerent> i.e. trojan some system files (you CAN replace OS files via USB)
Jun 26 10:17:13 <divVerent> then give it back :P
Jun 26 10:17:40 <divVerent> but design wise, Blackberry did it best... lock code is mandatory before opening the whole user file system, mainly
Jun 26 10:17:45 <DocScrutinizer05> my staement stands: once your device is "unlocked", and "security" by additionally obfuscating any passwords is a false friend that makes matters worse instead of better
Jun 26 10:17:49 <divVerent> AND actually good support for long and alphanumeric lock codes
Jun 26 10:17:55 <divVerent> i.e. real keyboard and working PW entry
Jun 26 10:18:02 <DocScrutinizer05> s/and/any/
Jun 26 10:18:02 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: my staement stanys: once your device is "unlocked", and "security" by additionally obfuscating any passwords is a false friend that makes matters worse instead of better
Jun 26 10:18:14 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: so? this is why you always lock it :P
Jun 26 10:18:14 <DocScrutinizer05> s/ and/ any/
Jun 26 10:18:14 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: my staement stands: once your device is "unlocked", any "security" by additionally obfuscating any passwords is a false friend that makes matters worse instead of better
Jun 26 10:18:44 <divVerent> the lock screen of the N900 is actually a LOT more secure than the competition's...
Jun 26 10:18:48 <DocScrutinizer05> Shapeshifter complained about cleartext passwords he can see on his unlocked device
Jun 26 10:18:50 <divVerent> due to not having so many features :P
Jun 26 10:19:12 <divVerent> basically, I do not expect any hacks to break the N900 lock screen
Jun 26 10:19:32 <divVerent> the only real chance you have is probably doing something tricky via USB
Jun 26 10:19:45 <divVerent> the lock screen has ONE issue though...
Jun 26 10:19:53 <divVerent> when the phone turned off the screen, then auto locked
Jun 26 10:19:56 <divVerent> and you later unlock it
Jun 26 10:20:04 <divVerent> you see for a split second the window below the lock screen
Jun 26 10:20:17 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, yeah
Jun 26 10:20:22 <divVerent> but that is just a minor information leak
Jun 26 10:20:26 <DocScrutinizer05> we could call that a bug
Jun 26 10:20:29 <divVerent> yes
Jun 26 10:20:54 <DocScrutinizer05> on unlock the screen should get enabled only *after* refreshing it
Jun 26 10:21:03 <divVerent> Blackberry did most of the security right, but its lock screen is bound to have the same vulns as Apple's or iOS's
Jun 26 10:21:14 <divVerent> regarding full user data on crypto FS, there is more challenges
Jun 26 10:21:22 <divVerent> e.g. what if you receive a SMS right after boot, before unlock
Jun 26 10:21:42 <divVerent> Blackberry then stores the message in a temporary unencrypted location, to be moved to proper storage on unlock
Jun 26 10:22:41 <divVerent> also... everyone knows this freezing RAM hack :P
Jun 26 10:23:09 <divVerent> basically, an attacker who invests about like $1000 per targeted device type can easily crack disk encryption on any powered on device
Jun 26 10:23:37 <divVerent> by freezing the RAM, removing the frozen RAM, and reading it out on another device
Jun 26 10:24:09 <divVerent> of course, if I were such an attacker, I would rather invest these $1000 into cracking a specific iOS or Android device type than into cracking N900s...
Jun 26 10:24:30 <divVerent> or actually, rather into Blackberry, as I can read most stuff from iPhones and Android anyway :P
Jun 26 10:24:33 <DocScrutinizer05> usually the modem stores the SMS until the AP/userland fetches it. Obviously not applicable for those crappy devices that don't even have an AP but run all processes on modem processor
Jun 26 10:24:59 <divVerent> DocScrutinizer05: sort of, but the user interface wants to show the SMS text on the lock screen :P
Jun 26 10:25:08 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
Jun 26 10:25:12 <divVerent> which BTW is a security hole by itself
Jun 26 10:25:13 <jaska> but.. if you open a blackberry, liquid feces will pour out.
Jun 26 10:25:16 <divVerent> but ALL the current devices do it
Jun 26 10:25:49 <divVerent> this is how you crack open an Apple device, knowing the email address of the guy:
Jun 26 10:26:02 <divVerent> go to apple.com, ask for password reset...
Jun 26 10:26:14 <divVerent> the powered on and networked iPhone will happily display a confirmation code on the lock screen :P
Jun 26 10:26:31 <divVerent> they probably fixed THAT part, though... by putting more crap before the code
Jun 26 10:26:43 <divVerent> but still, anything with SMS based confirmation will likely work
Jun 26 10:27:30 <divVerent> while bashing competitioon phone security: Android
Jun 26 10:27:37 <divVerent> it has security systems comparable to iOS...
Jun 26 10:27:46 <divVerent> BUT: the SD card is always unencrypted
Jun 26 10:27:50 <divVerent> and that is where all the photos go
Jun 26 10:28:28 <divVerent> only Blackberry actually is capable of encrypting the SD card content out of the box...
Jun 26 10:51:14 <wnd> seems that my n900's internal memory(card) is busted. filesystems on mmcblk0p[12] keep breaking. :-(
Jun 26 10:58:40 <Lava_Croft> :<
Jun 26 10:59:33 <Shapeshifter> I'm not sure why people use a lock screen...
Jun 26 10:59:37 <Shapeshifter> i don't use one
Jun 26 11:00:01 <Lava_Croft> i disable lockscreens on any device i can, if possible
Jun 26 11:00:11 <Lava_Croft> if i have to count all the time ive spent looking at useless lockscreens....
Jun 26 11:01:17 <Shapeshifter> lock screen on androids are funny. You can spy on someone entering it from a mile away thanks to the connecting bars
Jun 26 11:01:55 <orson> it is enough if you wipe the touchscreen before some unlocks it
Jun 26 11:02:18 <orson> then you will have quite clear traces of finger movement visible
Jun 26 11:03:28 <orson> of course, depending on how greasy are fingers of the user ;)
Jun 26 11:05:11 <DocScrutinizer05> wnd: what exactly are the symptoms you see?
Jun 26 11:05:54 <wnd> two consecutive fscks detect and repair errors (but only in interactive mode)
Jun 26 11:06:12 <DocScrutinizer05> wnd: *IF* your eMMC was flawed on hw level, you would face plenty of system panics due to swap getting corrupted
Jun 26 11:06:46 <wnd> the thing no longer even boots to ui as init can't mount mydocs
Jun 26 11:07:10 <DocScrutinizer05> mydocs is not needed for booting
Jun 26 11:07:23 <DocScrutinizer05> /home is needed
Jun 26 11:07:35 <wnd> well, the same happens with optfs (which I believe holds /home)
Jun 26 11:07:56 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, home contains /opt
Jun 26 11:08:02 <wnd> my mistake, I mentioned mydocs first because that's what I fscked twice (with errors)
Jun 26 11:08:40 <DocScrutinizer05> fsck more often than not fails when started on device to fix the VFAT on MyDocs
Jun 26 11:09:14 <DocScrutinizer05> your best option is to do a complete reflash
Jun 26 11:09:16 <wnd> mmcblk0p[12] on this device are ext3
Jun 26 11:09:36 <wnd> I suppose I should give that a try
Jun 26 11:10:05 <DocScrutinizer05> I honestly suggest you test the device with a plain vanilla stock fremantle system
Jun 26 11:10:07 <wnd> and perhaps run dd on those devices to see if I get io errors
Jun 26 11:10:47 <DocScrutinizer05> data corruption on flash rarely ever is related to IO errors
Jun 26 11:12:55 <DocScrutinizer05> and on my side jury is still out on ext3 and its journalling, on flash. It easily might be worse than plain ext2
Jun 26 11:13:18 <wnd> that's probably correct
Jun 26 11:13:28 <DocScrutinizer05> since unlike on HDD, on flash you can't write single sectors
Jun 26 11:13:51 <DocScrutinizer05> physically you always have to rewrite complete erase-pages
Jun 26 11:15:49 <DocScrutinizer05> btw BWAHAHAHA @ USA: "he doesn't own a valid passport anymore since the USA canceled it" - I *never* heard of remote invalidation of a valid passport. That's the whole point of a passport
Jun 26 11:16:08 <DocScrutinizer05> (sorry for OT, but I had to say that)
Jun 26 11:31:41 <Raimu> :)
Jun 26 11:37:34 <DocScrutinizer05> fsckng US-government always thinks they can bend or invent new laws just like they seem fit
Jun 26 11:38:24 <Raimu> Bad thing is they usually get away with it
Jun 26 11:38:35 <Raimu> Through sheer weight
Jun 26 11:38:46 <jaska> might makes right
Jun 26 11:38:56 <Raimu> haha
Jun 26 11:39:21 <DocScrutinizer05> no, we didn't murder that guy, we eliminated a unlawful combattant / terrorist / <up-to-you>, which is perfectly legal according to that new US law anywhere on this globe
Jun 26 11:40:38 <DocScrutinizer05> FSCKYOU according to MY law it's perfectly legal to blast you off my lawn when you ever dare to show up here
Jun 26 11:41:54 * DocScrutinizer05 heats up the MTHEL
Jun 26 11:41:55 <rikanee> the kind of mass-collection and analysis power they have is /scary/.
Jun 26 11:42:22 <Raimu> Thankfully any collection of insane amounts of data is ultimately impossible to process, therefore relatively safe
Jun 26 11:42:46 <Raimu> That is, unless someone invents something straight out of science fiction.
Jun 26 11:42:47 <rikanee> backed with fiber taps and ZBs of storage and counting, the only thing missing is processing power for all of it
Jun 26 11:43:42 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed, though as soon as they want to know about *your* sexula preferences or whatever, it's the easiest thing to grep thru that insane amount of random data for your IPs, mail addr, and whatnot
Jun 26 11:43:52 <Raimu> Yes, that's right though.
Jun 26 11:45:06 <rikanee> speaking of which, makes me interested to feed an Accumulo instance raw wireshark caps of my home network.
Jun 26 11:46:13 <DocScrutinizer05> wich is the exact problem with that shit: it's useless for what they claim they do it for, but it is *easily* abused to e.g. allow/deny a visa based on you-dunno-what-they-gep'ed-the-data-for
Jun 26 11:47:13 <Raimu> DocScrutinizer05: Yeaaaah
Jun 26 11:56:32 <SAiF> They can break any password with a dictionary attack using all that info. HAHA
Jun 26 13:10:56 <Iridos> DocScrutinizer05, well... traveling to the US and I had to answer the question if I "was involved in genocide" ... hmmm, now was I? Or if I'm entering with the goal to commit terrorist activities.... well, no, but what if I change my mind until then?
Jun 26 13:17:46 <Lava_Croft> Iridos: When my brother visited the USA they were so welcoming
Jun 26 13:17:51 <Lava_Croft> with automatic rifles
Jun 26 13:18:00 <Lava_Croft> treating him like a terrorist
Jun 26 13:20:15 <SAiF> Yet they say it is a  Free Country
Jun 26 13:23:43 <Lava_Croft> i guess once you are inside! :D
Jun 26 13:29:13 <DocScrutinizer05> it's probably indeed a free country. In the sense that everybody does whatever they like. Including the three-letter-agencies and down to the last dumbass countryside sheriff or flatfoot police officer
Jun 26 13:31:05 <DocScrutinizer05> when police there wants to charge you for speeding, it's not about your car plate and photos of your steering the car, it's about police needing a faster car than you have, to catch you right away
Jun 26 13:32:05 <DocScrutinizer05> in a certain aspect they still have wild west cowboy regulations over there
Jun 26 13:32:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and they act globally exactly like that
Jun 26 13:39:31 <Lava_Croft> they looked very closely at their european forefather
Jun 26 13:39:35 <Lava_Croft> and realized: we can do this much better
Jun 26 13:39:54 <Lava_Croft> europe is also becoming much a fortress like the USA is
Jun 26 13:40:25 <Lava_Croft> at least the USA doesnt put immigrant children in jail while awaiting to be deported 
Jun 26 13:40:28 <Lava_Croft> NL does:)
Jun 26 13:40:58 <Lava_Croft> and those 3 letter agencies in the USA can only dream of the powers that Dutch agencies have
Jun 26 13:41:17 <jaska> oh, here.. the police can grant themselves search warrants.
Jun 26 13:41:18 <Lava_Croft> (over their own citizens of course)
Jun 26 13:41:25 <Lava_Croft> oh, they dont need warrants here
Jun 26 13:41:29 <Lava_Croft> they can just wiretap all they want
Jun 26 13:41:39 <Lava_Croft> cameras at the roads take pics of my license plate and store it for 2 years at least
Jun 26 13:41:53 <Lava_Croft> DPI and checking surfing behaviour is all common practice here
Jun 26 13:42:08 <Lava_Croft> that why NL is the second country to put net neutrality into law
Jun 26 13:42:22 <Lava_Croft> that way you can point at it and say: "look, we embrace freedom!"
Jun 26 13:56:49 <GeneralAntilles> One nice thing that had been keeping the effectiveness of a lot of that stupid shot at bay in the US was the lack of interagency communication. Especially between state and Fed level agencies.
Jun 26 13:57:01 <GeneralAntilles> Now it's all going into massive databases.
Jun 26 13:57:22 <GeneralAntilles> The DEA has quietly been installing highway license plate cameras.
Jun 26 14:00:34 <DocScrutinizer05> GeneralAntilles: the point probably is you don't really need a licence plate at all for driving around with your car in USA
Jun 26 14:01:01 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, you probably better had one, but if you don't - does it matter?
Jun 26 14:02:39 <GeneralAntilles> DocScrutinizer05, no, a cop or sheriff or highway patrol will stop you at some point.
Jun 26 14:03:04 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah sure, they stop you. and then?
Jun 26 14:04:14 <DocScrutinizer05> do you have any documents along with such licence plate?
Jun 26 14:04:49 <DocScrutinizer05> or could you use an arbitrary plate on your car and no cop would even notice when checking you
Jun 26 14:05:21 <Lava_Croft> here they just check your license plate in the dbase right away
Jun 26 14:05:30 <Lava_Croft> and if something is not in order, you have problems
Jun 26 14:05:33 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Jun 26 14:05:35 <Lava_Croft> be it tax debt, fines, whatever
Jun 26 14:05:43 <Lava_Croft> usually they put everybody in one parking lot
Jun 26 14:05:46 <DocScrutinizer05> right
Jun 26 14:05:49 <Lava_Croft> from the IRS to cops to whatever
Jun 26 14:05:54 <Lava_Croft> and hold razzia's along the highway
Jun 26 14:06:00 <Lava_Croft> checking up on everyone they deem suspicious
Jun 26 14:06:20 <Lava_Croft> its great spending 2h at a police station because a friend of yours is in the army
Jun 26 14:06:26 <Lava_Croft> and has empty bullet casings in his car
Jun 26 14:06:40 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway I heard in USA you sell the car with all the tickets *the car* collected over time, that not yet been paid
Jun 26 14:07:02 <DocScrutinizer05> so sometimes you have to pay for getting rid of the car ;-P
Jun 26 14:07:06 <Lava_Croft> tying fines to the license plate is an awesome idea:D
Jun 26 14:09:15 <DocScrutinizer05> "Nice car! why do you sell it? and THAT cheap!" <opens glove box - 200 tickets ooze out> "UGH! Yeah that's why"
Jun 26 14:10:12 <ecc3g> huh?  fines are tied to the registration tied to the tags... car sold, fines stay with the previous registrar...
Jun 26 14:10:27 <DocScrutinizer05> in USA?
Jun 26 14:10:31 <ecc3g> yes...
Jun 26 14:10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, maybe that's obsolete or incorrect info then on my side
Jun 26 14:10:50 <ecc3g> I get new tags every time I buy a car...
Jun 26 14:11:27 <ecc3g> they "are" tied to tags of course but they go back to whoever registered the car.
Jun 26 14:11:28 <GeneralAntilles> DocScrutinizer05, don't trust information about the US you get in Europe. :)
Jun 26 14:11:55 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, usually the truth is much worse X-P
Jun 26 14:13:14 <GeneralAntilles> More like, completely unrelated. ;)
Jun 26 14:13:40 <GeneralAntilles> And don't forget the US is a federation of states.
Jun 26 14:13:54 <GeneralAntilles> So rules are often quite different from state to state.
Jun 26 14:15:24 <DocScrutinizer05> I *think* I got this as a story from a good friend, 20 years or somesuch ago, after he visited US to get his PP licence
Jun 26 14:16:14 <DocScrutinizer05> PP? whatever pilot license 
Jun 26 14:17:15 * DocScrutinizer05 curses his spellchecker for not knowing correct English
Jun 26 14:18:22 <ecc3g> provisional pilot license?
Jun 26 14:18:33 <DocScrutinizer05> dunno
Jun 26 14:18:48 <DocScrutinizer05> I thought it's called PP, but I'm not sure about it
Jun 26 14:19:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ~seen Woody14619
Jun 26 14:19:45 <infobot> woody14619 is currently on #maemo #maemo-ssu. Has said a total of 1 messages. Is idling for 18h 52m, last said: 'I'd say, yes, that's a great reason to advertise it (and to hopefully garner a bit more of appreciation to those who volunteer their time for such).'.
Jun 26 14:22:06 <DocScrutinizer05> so the story is a) pretty old, and b) from SF area, if it's actually been told by my friend
Jun 26 14:24:05 <HtheB> DocScrutinizer05, do you have any knowledge of extracting rootfs 
Jun 26 14:24:26 <HtheB> (tarring it)
Jun 26 14:26:21 <DocScrutinizer05> HtheB: err, please elaborate
Jun 26 14:27:15 <HtheB> i have a proto device laying here
Jun 26 14:27:37 <HtheB> just want to extract the rootfs to try it on the regular N950 
Jun 26 14:27:45 <HtheB> (maybe using ubiboot)
Jun 26 14:37:25 <Shapeshifter> fucking modest!! it regularily eats 100% CPU and my battery...
Jun 26 14:42:05 <DocScrutinizer05> HtheB: well, I'd think a normal tar -czvf should do, unless you run into troubles with all the virtual filesystems
Jun 26 14:43:07 <DocScrutinizer05> stuff like /dev and /sys for sure is sth you usually/mostly don't want to add to your tarball
Jun 26 14:44:01 <DocScrutinizer05> HtheB: I feel like I can't give good advice, please ask somebody with better knowledge
Jun 26 14:44:46 <kerio> you probably want to mount the root device on a separate directory
Jun 26 14:44:50 <kerio> and tar from there
Jun 26 14:46:06 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, this sounds good
Jun 26 14:53:06 <HtheB> kerio, I coulnd't
Jun 26 14:53:10 <HtheB> keeps asking if I was root
Jun 26 14:53:13 <HtheB> which I was -_-
Jun 26 14:53:17 <kerio> ~aegis
Jun 26 14:53:17 <infobot> http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or  http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif
Jun 26 14:57:49 <HtheB> kerip, afaik, there is no aegis in the proto devices
Jun 26 14:59:04 <HtheB> kerio *
Jun 26 15:14:45 <Haro> How do you install the SSL certificates on the N900 to use wget with https?
Jun 26 15:33:17 <Haro> How do you install the SSL certificates on the N900 to use wget with https?
Jun 26 15:43:06 <orson> Haro: I know it's not the direct answer to your questions, but maybe you don't need certificates and simply use the --no-check-certificate parameter?
Jun 26 15:55:39 <kerio> you don't /need/ certificates
Jun 26 15:55:43 <kerio> but they are somewhat good
Jun 26 16:04:01 <orson> I agree, it just depends on the situation - it occurred to me a few times that I wanted to download a script from https website, but I could not as the certificate could not be verified
Jun 26 16:04:37 <orson> and it was not highly secured data, so the simplest solution worked the best
Jun 26 17:32:15 <discopig> hi
Jun 26 19:09:38 <Win7Mac> DocScrutinizer05, would love to read your comment: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=86207&page=3
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 27 02:59:58 2013