**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Aug 28 02:59:58 2013 Aug 28 03:17:53 "I got a letter for Mr HiFo. What? Sorry I don't think you actually are Mr. HiFo. You can send somebody to pick up that letter at post office. He just has to prove that Mr. HiFo sent him" Aug 28 03:19:11 sounds sane, no? whom would you send? Aug 28 03:19:57 A German maybe? ;-D Aug 28 04:09:18 DocScrutinizer05: you mentioned on http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369935&postcount=141 that OMAP3 chipsets don't work with >512MB RAM then how does the N9 a OMAP3630 chip work with 1GB RAM Aug 28 04:10:56 does it? Aug 28 04:11:12 indeed hence the surprise :) Aug 28 04:11:43 hmm, then I dunno what dos1 found this afternoon Aug 28 04:14:53 I as well seem to recall we checked what memory sizes the PoP on N900 3430 could actually use, quite some time ago when SpeedEvil and me mused about swapping SoC or PoP for a better one, and we as well found 512MB max. Maybe for 3730 that changed and Dos1 did look at wrong place Aug 28 04:15:40 you mean for 3630 not 3730 Aug 28 04:15:58 possibly thats the reason Aug 28 04:16:59 I think xxxx is the HS variant, while xxxx is the non-HS variant Aug 28 04:17:29 like with 3430 and 3530 Aug 28 04:18:42 in the end it doesn't matter, Nikolaus will try to source the best SoC he can get Aug 28 04:19:03 I' Aug 28 04:19:31 and for now we can't tell what that will be Aug 28 04:19:33 I'm wondering... wouldn't it just be cheaper to take a few old N900s and do some reflow on them; up the Ram? Aug 28 04:19:41 perhaps do some other simple mods? Aug 28 04:20:29 Just thinking how much money people would be spending, for a not that much better system, and how few could actually do it Aug 28 04:21:29 robbiethe1st: you're not to the point of this project. We want to create a new device that potentially can get built in a few years still, that we can base on for any successor and that we have full documentation for and full control over every single component Aug 28 04:22:01 In which case, wouldn't you want to build it with something /signifigantly/ better? Aug 28 04:22:18 no, since we want to stay compatible to fremantle Aug 28 04:22:55 and also we already *have* the core GTA04 design, tested and working Aug 28 04:23:02 What, exactly, does that entail? I mean, isn't most of it just standard libraries and ARM code? Aug 28 04:23:39 sorry I can't discuss this in detail right now, it's too complex and I'm too tired Aug 28 04:23:41 Just out of curiosity, what would prevent taking the whole OS, using a new kernel and interface modules, and running it on, say, a Tegra-based tablet? You've got X11 drivers etc? Aug 28 04:23:51 I should ask you tomorrow, then. Aug 28 04:24:21 (because, that's sort of what I want to try to do myself - got a Nexus 7(gen1), want to get X on it, and hopefully Hildon Aug 28 04:25:00 if you think you could port fremantle to a new kernel and a new platform with new peripherals, go ahead talk to pali why he still is basing KP on 2.6.28 and finally *do* it Aug 28 04:25:34 fremantle >> hildon Aug 28 04:26:15 porting hildon to a new platform == cordia aiui Aug 28 04:26:55 DocScrutinizer05, he's gone, and clearly needs to research... Aug 28 04:27:03 doesn't mean you got a new fremantle device, with all the apps from fremantle readily available Aug 28 04:27:41 but this GTA04 project does look interesting... will be following closely Aug 28 04:30:06 * DocScrutinizer05 feels like trying to mount a new engine into a car with broken engine, and maybe even a new engine with 50% more power. And all the time guys pass by asking "hey! why don't you build a Ferrari instead?" Aug 28 04:31:17 "wanna help? we will need cash, and plenty of it?" Aug 28 04:31:27 while same time my wife tells me she shreddered all our credit cards Aug 28 04:32:06 together with the money we had in the house Aug 28 04:43:17 wat Aug 28 04:43:26 why would she shred money :( Aug 28 04:46:09 MUAHAHAHAHAH i have a shredder! Aug 28 06:32:21 DocScrutinizer05: Can maemo infra provide for us supl-proxy with *non*self-signed certificate? http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369745&postcount=101 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1369854&postcount=102 Aug 28 06:33:28 DocScrutinizer05: btw, in above link are other supl servers Aug 28 06:43:22 Pali: can't we just replace the certificate? Aug 28 06:45:55 freemangordon: that is only proxy and you can use any certificate on your own proxy server Aug 28 06:46:10 so also maemo.org SSL certificate which is trusted Aug 28 06:48:10 Pali: I got that, but why put additional pressure on the maemo infra if we can use the correct certificate on the device. I guess we can take it from N9 Aug 28 06:50:05 oh, wait Aug 28 06:50:34 I guess we should change liblocation Aug 28 06:54:53 Pali: seems we are missing some root cert on the device Aug 28 07:03:11 Pali: well, "openssl s_client -connect supl.nokia.com:7275 -CApath /etc/certs/common-ca/" gives Verify return code: 0 (ok) Aug 28 07:08:01 freemangordon: supl.nokia.com:7275 provides every certificate up to and including the Verisign root certificate. Aug 28 07:08:38 However: it's the version of the root-certificate signed with md2 hash algorithm, considered unsafe, so lots of software have started not trusting it. Aug 28 07:09:14 Veggen: why then if I give -CApath /etc/certs/common-ca/ to openssl, the verification does not fail? Aug 28 07:09:15 there exists a new version, drop-in-replacement, signed with sha1. Aug 28 07:10:01 ...because it's the same keys? And openssl does trust it. Aug 28 07:10:44 Veggen: "...so lots of software have started not trusting it." - nothing changed on n900 side Aug 28 07:11:09 so I can't see how it stared to not trust it Aug 28 07:11:16 hmm. Aug 28 07:12:36 well. Maybe they did something on the supl.nokia.com side? Aug 28 07:12:52 that's for sure Aug 28 07:12:53 :) Aug 28 07:12:55 supl.nokia.com is self-signed Aug 28 07:12:59 read that TMO links Aug 28 07:13:04 Pali: uhm...no. Aug 28 07:13:14 Pali: it is not if I read the openssl output correctly Aug 28 07:13:23 ok Aug 28 07:13:33 Pali: try "openssl s_client -connect supl.nokia.com:7275 -CApath /etc/certs/common-ca/" Aug 28 07:14:04 freemangordon: SSL-wise, they don't have to provide the root certificate in the chain. As supl.nokia.com does. Aug 28 07:14:15 oh, I see Aug 28 07:14:46 Veggen: but wait, N9/50 does not have any problem with it Aug 28 07:15:02 anyway, there are some other hidden gconf keys for supl location daemon Aug 28 07:15:10 which are not exported to GUI Aug 28 07:15:21 look at gconf file included in location packages Aug 28 07:15:23 However, usually it doesn't hurt. But if they recently change to provide it, maybe because of infrastructure changes...then maybe they provide it now and not before. Aug 28 07:15:45 freemangordon: different software components on the client side might be more picky. Aug 28 07:16:42 Now I am just guessing at possible explanations. But I did have *exactly* that problem myself, for a site I do SSL-certificate-management for. Aug 28 07:16:45 Veggen: sure, but if we have a problem in openssl, lets upgrade/fix it then, instead of setting up supl proxy on maemo infra :) Aug 28 07:17:10 Veggen: how did you fix it? Aug 28 07:17:55 I stopped having the root certificate in the chain. Aug 28 07:18:06 hmm won;t work for us :) Aug 28 07:18:45 Mind you, it did require convincing a $three_letter_bigcorp to implement a change in their SSL stack. Aug 28 07:19:42 Luckily, I represented a $very_large_financial_customer in this case. Aug 28 07:19:49 :D Aug 28 07:20:09 however, it seems we have some problem on N900 Aug 28 07:20:24 maybe time to RE liblocation Aug 28 07:20:51 unfortunately, I have no more N900. Aug 28 07:21:02 hmm, or maybe I have. Aug 28 07:21:20 it was my N9 that was lost in a Dubai Taxi. Aug 28 07:21:41 damn, it is not liblocation :( Aug 28 07:22:00 Pali: do we have any idea which binary is failing to connect to supl server? Aug 28 07:22:24 location-daemon binary Aug 28 07:23:15 Pali: sure? I can only find /usr/bin/location-proxy Aug 28 07:24:52 so location-proxy Aug 28 07:25:01 it is that big daemon binary Aug 28 07:25:21 grep for gconf keys Aug 28 07:25:30 Pali: hmm, this is some 30k binary, why big? Aug 28 07:26:19 do not remember, but there was some small libraries and one executable daemon binary Aug 28 07:26:35 and I found there some hidden gconf keys Aug 28 07:26:46 I guess it makes way more sense to RE this, instead of libhildon-plugins-notify-sv.so. ade won;t be happy :D Aug 28 07:27:05 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 31988 Mar 2 2010 /usr/bin/location-proxy Aug 28 07:43:21 Hi guys...Is N900 support power bank? Aug 28 07:43:53 I have try several power bank, none successfully charge N900 battery Aug 28 07:48:37 sLumPia: I have a software problem on mine that means I can only charge from a real PC USB port Aug 28 07:50:21 * _ade_ is waving his fist at freemangordon :-) Aug 28 07:50:44 :) Aug 28 07:50:49 _ade_: morning Aug 28 07:51:00 <_ade_> morning Aug 28 07:52:34 <_ade_> freemangordon: I would say give the location issues priority above custom alarm sounds :-) Aug 28 07:52:46 :nod: Aug 28 07:55:24 unclouded: Sorry, what software problem? Is that only your on N900 or happen on all N900? Aug 28 07:56:13 no idea what the problem is. can't tell if your N900 is affected. definitely not all N900s though Aug 28 07:58:18 I have try at least 3 power banks and all of it failed to charged my phone Aug 28 07:59:26 Pali: "Aug 28 10:55:45 Nokia-N900 location-proxy[1496]: GLIB DEBUG default - Socket to supl.nokia.com opened, fd=10, verify_res=19" Aug 28 08:00:08 seems like it is certman to blame Aug 28 08:04:15 A wonderful splendid good Morning (UGT) on this gorgeous Setting Orange! Aug 28 10:45:23 DocScrutinizer05: IIRC, I did find a gig - but it was a flashless gig. I was assuming it was possible to boot from emmc - perhaps if you did silly things like not bond a ball, or tie a ball high/low using wire Aug 28 10:46:05 And 'find' meant 'locate on microns website' - rather than 'find vendor that will ship 5. Aug 28 11:58:44 .ZZZZZ .........................................................ssz......................aazzzzzzzzzzzaa7$).,,,,z.,,,,,,,,8898l!qwgblioimlzzzzzzz Aug 28 12:01:51 Good Sleep. Aug 28 12:37:58 SpeedEvil: thanks Aug 28 12:54:30 anyone want my old N810 Gentoo binpkgs? Aug 28 12:54:34 considering nuking them Aug 28 12:54:47 "so what is the exact procedure supposed to transfer the donations to a new account?" - 1) register HiFo as e.V. 2) create bank account in germany 3) The bank will cut a check to Hildon Foundation e.V. or transfer the funds to that new bank account Aug 28 12:55:18 Hi, found an update for 'mc' Aug 28 12:55:48 But it says it can't be installed because of it can't find 'libslang2 Aug 28 12:56:01 any way to fix it ? Aug 28 12:57:02 *3) First Niagara wil... Aug 28 12:58:03 * jaska drools at the mention of n900 with 4x the ram Aug 28 12:58:59 Win7Mac: you ever tried to open a bank account for some virtual entity? Aug 28 12:59:50 Win7Mac: afaik there are no checks that can get handed in to only the account that's written on the check Aug 28 13:00:41 no, but change of members/account access is possible Aug 28 13:01:03 Win7Mac: how would we and who would prove to 1st nagura that the HiFo account is legit and actually related to the US HiFo corporation? Aug 28 13:01:29 send all the papers + translation? Aug 28 13:04:03 there are already ~5 "hildon" entities existing, why can't none of them claim the money? (assuming that 1st nigeria would actually refuse to send the money to account of e.g. http://www.hildon.com/) Quite obviously you could fake whatever papers you like and send them to USA electronically or as FAX Aug 28 13:05:03 ok, I get your point. what can we do? Aug 28 13:05:56 when some legit legal HiFo director can't open a new account anywhere in USA and then make 1st niagra send the money to that new USA account, then why would a german e.V be able to make them send the money to a german account? Aug 28 13:06:39 I don't see anything that can be done anymore Aug 28 13:06:54 did you see woodys mail from 20.08.2013 21:45? Aug 28 13:06:56 Rob fucked it up thoroughly for whole maemo community Aug 28 13:07:02 no Aug 28 13:07:10 do you have it? Aug 28 13:07:13 no Aug 28 13:07:48 hm, you were cc'd. anyway, just a sec Aug 28 13:07:57 wait, then I must have it Aug 28 13:09:42 sent Aug 28 13:09:42 subject? Aug 28 13:09:56 Subject == Object Aug 28 13:09:59 First Niagra being a PITA. Aug 28 13:10:08 ;) Aug 28 13:20:09 I wonder why the heck the original mail didn't make it Aug 28 13:21:27 you should reread this mail carefully. Woody is clearly stating what he got told by Mike, and aiui the check option been not a quote of Mike's words Aug 28 13:22:05 from woodys mail - we prolly could write a new "Corporate Resolution to appoint new trustees" for Woody only Aug 28 13:22:19 sure Aug 28 13:22:35 First Niagara might except that Aug 28 13:22:56 that for sure would be the fastest to get hold of the money Aug 28 13:23:09 and you moost probably should find a new bank in USA with friendly competent employees, and ask them to help claim the money from 1stN Aug 28 13:23:28 most* Aug 28 13:24:22 one bank knows the other bank's weird thinking and how to cope with it Aug 28 13:25:56 find a new bank, talk to them and explain to them what you need, what you want to be able to do with that account, show them the existing papers and ask them if they need any other or additional documents to set up a working account and to claim the money from 1st niagara Aug 28 13:27:30 it'd be an interim solution just to get the money asap. We'd kill that account as soon as we have the e.v. Aug 28 13:28:12 I dunno US banks, but here in Germany at least there's a think called "Bankeinzugsverfahren" where the destination account bank initiates the transfer, based on some permission the owner of the drafted account gave to the owner of the drafting account Aug 28 13:28:39 s/think/thing/ Aug 28 13:28:41 DocScrutinizer05 meant: I dunno US banks, but here in Germany at least there's a thing called "Bankeinzugsverfahren" where the destination account bank initiates the transfer, based on some permission the owner of the drafted account gave to the owner of the drafting account Aug 28 13:31:48 since there's no verification about said permission on drafted side, the drafting side bank has to make sure the account owner is properly identified, and also they mustn't hand out the money for some period of time after transfer, so drafted side has a chance to check their account and roll back any rogue transfer Aug 28 13:33:05 ok, I'll email Woody Aug 28 13:36:06 I hate to say this, but: I told you for all I know you have to show up physically in a branch of the bank to get you on the access list, and you have to bring ID card or similar, and either the current owner must accompany you or the bank got a signed order from owner to add you (full name, nationality, maybe even ID card number) to the access list Aug 28 13:37:43 any other procedure would seem vulnerable and prone to fraud to me Aug 28 13:38:50 well, a signed order shouldn't be a problem Aug 28 13:42:34 from whom? now the account at 1st viagra is fsckdup since Rob removed. I don't think even Rob could sign such order now Aug 28 13:43:34 basically nobody can, since nobody is on the access list anymore aiui. the account is basically orphaned Aug 28 13:43:46 if read that mail right, 1st Niagara accepts Woody only Aug 28 13:44:47 is there something similar to german PostIdent-Verfahren in the US? Aug 28 13:47:27 I think even in germany postident is not sufficient to open or manage a bank account Aug 28 13:47:51 my bank offers it Aug 28 13:48:08 http://www.sparda-bank-hamburg.de/pdf/konto_und_depot/hh_postident_coupon.pdf Aug 28 13:50:13 ponder the following: every russian mafia boss and every german pimp will happily pay you a few thousand for you doing him the favor to open an account on your name that he can access and use to clean his illegal money Aug 28 13:50:26 al qaida all the same Aug 28 13:51:37 there's a rather terse ruleset what banks may allow and what they never will do, regarding identities and accountability of the individuals who have access to an account Aug 28 13:52:07 Geldwaeschegesetz Aug 28 13:54:27 right, I'm suggesting to woody to be either 1) only treasurer for the moment to get on the access list 2) open new account with all 3 of us on the access list Aug 28 13:55:03 btw similar considerations apply to e.V. - the foundation members maybe have to be Germans, most likely they have to live in Germany Aug 28 13:55:21 both Aug 28 13:55:43 where you have that from? Aug 28 13:56:12 when Woody can do this, he pretty please immediately transfers all money out of the tainted account at 1stN to any other account any of you guys has full access to Aug 28 13:56:43 I don't mind if that's a private account of any of you, or you actually manage to create a new account in USA Aug 28 13:57:15 creating an account is a lightweight and free of charge process, first approach Aug 28 13:58:13 if you manage to talk to the clerk about the purpose of the account and ask him how to set such thing up properly, all the better Aug 28 14:01:18 maybe don't confuse the guy at bank with HiFo foundation nonprofit blabla but simply explain to him you are 5 guys sharing a flat or a house, and the account is for all 5 of you, and eventually one or two of the crew may change Aug 28 14:01:54 s/all 5 of you/the house/ Aug 28 14:01:56 DocScrutinizer05 meant: maybe don't confuse the guy at bank with HiFo foundation nonprofit blabla but simply explain to him you are 5 guys sharing a flat or a house, and the account is for the house, and eventually one or two of the crew may change Aug 28 14:03:40 you of course can tell him about that HiFo club, but that doesn't change the way the account shall work and your house-example was just to explain more easily what you need Aug 28 14:04:13 after all this is not terre_des_hommes Aug 28 14:06:19 ((where you have that from?)) mere logic. I don't think some Inuit can meet in their igloo and found a german e.V. Aug 28 14:08:57 or worse yet: ku klux klan or al qaida Aug 28 14:10:17 obviously you at least have to be present in Germany to sign the papers and hand them in, and to check your snailmail box at the official address of the e.V. Aug 28 14:10:55 and Ordnungsamt must have a feasible way to verify identity of the inaugural members Aug 28 14:11:24 and to contact them Aug 28 14:13:24 err Amt fuer ordentliche Oeffnung Aug 28 14:17:00 check "(griechischer|spanischer|tuerkischer|*) Kulturverien" - they are all founded by German residents, though maybe they are Greeks or Spanish or... Aug 28 14:27:26 why is my N900 refusing to ring at random times ? Aug 28 14:27:36 like it rings on the first call Aug 28 14:27:45 and then on the next it doesn't Aug 28 14:27:47 :| Aug 28 14:27:58 sorry, my neighbour just came in, re-read now Aug 28 14:32:02 dhbiker: maybe your system is getting hogged by sth. check `df -h` and `top` Aug 28 14:32:54 already checked Aug 28 14:33:01 and load is always 0.07 or lower Aug 28 14:33:36 also just maybe your accelerometer got a hickup - it does this sometimes. Then your device might *think* it's face-down which means 'mute'. start spirit level app or similar accelerometer readout to check Aug 28 14:34:04 load is ok then, what about df? Aug 28 14:34:32 root 68% used Aug 28 14:34:39 everything else ok Aug 28 14:36:30 that's what's strange to me Aug 28 14:36:35 nothing special to see Aug 28 14:37:25 accelerometer also doing fine Aug 28 14:40:09 well... seems like i have to reflash it soon then :| Aug 28 14:48:35 check syslog (install it if you don't already have it) Aug 28 14:49:16 DocScrutinizer, I can't find any info saying non-germans cannot be funding members of an e.V. Aug 28 14:49:37 Leitfaden zum Vereinsrecht, page 13: http://www.bmj.de/SharedDocs/Downloads/DE/broschueren_fuer_warenkorb/DE/Leitfaden_Vereinsrecht.html? Aug 28 14:50:09 check other sounds. Is it only ringtone that fails or are all sounds broken? what about your profile? And what else is actually working when a call comes in - vibration, missed call notification, dialer popping up? Aug 28 14:52:28 Win7Mac: I'm rather sure they have to have a falid addr in germany, called "ladungsfaehige Anschrift". doesn't matter if they are native Germans or any other nationality, but they can't create a e.V. when they are just moving to Germany in their holiday or even not come to Germany at all and just send some signed papers from Australia Aug 28 14:52:45 anyone else who would like to run fish 2.0 on their N900? Aug 28 14:52:56 i used 1.23something before and it was great Aug 28 14:53:09 but i never managed to compile it myself Aug 28 14:53:15 fish? that weird filesystem? Aug 28 14:53:20 no the shell Aug 28 14:53:29 http://fishshell.com/ Aug 28 14:53:58 ok, thanks I'll do some more research Aug 28 14:54:19 s/falid/valid/. Aug 28 14:56:17 dhbiker: also, do you by any chance have per-contact-ringtones installed (package has some different name I can't recall right now)? Aug 28 14:58:54 DocScrutinizer05: nope i don't use per contact ringtones Aug 28 14:59:02 sms and call ringtone randomly faily Aug 28 14:59:16 also not vibrating when it should Aug 28 14:59:45 Win7Mac: german e.V. has special protection by law. It as well has some privileges. So you can bet on something in law forbids they abuse this on cayman islands simply by using a fax or one stooge in here Aug 28 15:00:02 only thing i have and i use it for more than a year is timed silencer Aug 28 15:00:12 hmmm Aug 28 15:01:15 I suggest dbus-monitor >>sessionbus.log&; dbus-monitor -s >>systembus.log Aug 28 15:01:32 and syslog Aug 28 15:01:49 or simply reflash ;-) Aug 28 15:02:01 probably just reflash Aug 28 15:02:35 do a BM backup before! if only for forensics Aug 28 15:02:43 i will Aug 28 15:03:38 thanks DocScrutinizer05 :> Aug 28 15:03:39 a weird idea: does your AV-jack work properly, i.e. does it recognize headset and headphones correctly? Aug 28 15:03:48 oh.. hmm Aug 28 15:03:50 let me check Aug 28 15:04:22 also, check size of your events-db Aug 28 15:04:24 yep Aug 28 15:04:27 works Aug 28 15:05:10 where is that ? Aug 28 15:05:14 eventsdb known to hog system to death when it frows to insane sizes. I consider everything >1MB severely insane Aug 28 15:05:25 mompls Aug 28 15:06:45 /home/user/.rtcom-eventlogger Aug 28 15:07:04 el-v1,db Aug 28 15:07:39 s/frows/grows/ Aug 28 15:10:15 326k Aug 28 15:10:17 Doc, Aug 28 15:23:53 nobody here tried the fish shell? Aug 28 15:24:25 Nope Aug 28 15:24:53 its awesome. unfortunately i failed when i tried to build it with the maemo sdk Aug 28 15:32:31 dhbiker: syslog and dbus-monitor it is then Aug 28 15:36:09 ~ping Aug 28 15:36:10 ~pong Aug 28 15:36:48 ^sorry I am getting used to doing that.. Aug 28 15:38:44 ~ping SAiF Aug 28 15:38:44 pong SAiF Aug 28 15:39:49 ~coffee SAiF Aug 28 15:39:50 * infobot steals some of aloril's special coffee and gives it to SAiF on a silver platter. Aug 28 15:40:14 o.O hoho..:) Aug 28 15:41:27 Doc, on Neo900, I won't vote. Aug 28 15:41:52 np Aug 28 15:42:04 don't vote if you're not interested Aug 28 15:42:32 we just need to find out about chances to make that happen Aug 28 15:42:43 Its not that I am not insterested. Aug 28 15:43:14 with just above 100bucks (coverterd 8000rs) a month( as a trainee), I cannot vote. Aug 28 15:44:24 But I would like a feature where .. Aug 28 15:44:28 vote ? Aug 28 15:44:38 sekrit vote ? :O Aug 28 15:44:43 I am struggling for english Aug 28 15:49:01 where I could store some money as an online wallet, where I can only put money now and then, from now on and maemo can take it for developement, and when my wallet reaches the amount at which neo900 is selling, I will get one too. Aug 28 15:49:08 Somebody rephrase Aug 28 16:26:21 just had a phonecall with the Deutsche Postbank and they will not accept treasurers who do not show up in a local branch :( Aug 28 16:26:35 for identification Aug 28 16:26:55 no postident process whatsoever Aug 28 16:47:43 SAiF: it's pretty clear :-) and thanks, and yes we will probably try to make such thing possible Aug 28 16:49:30 we're about to ponder a donation/fundraiser/kickstarter that does not automatically buy you a device but donations are meant for development. Of course we can plan to send out devices to donors who reached a certain limit, once we got them built Aug 28 16:50:59 okay doc., Aug 28 16:51:33 we might go for a combination of first-come-first-serve and those-wo-donated-most. Yet to get evaluated how a fair process should look like Aug 28 17:22:55 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 Aug 28 17:23:06 do my eyes see right ? :O Aug 28 17:26:16 haha Aug 28 17:26:45 spread the word! Aug 28 17:27:10 will do sir! Aug 28 17:28:45 well i guess it's time to restart the development of my EQ :3 Aug 28 17:38:14 also. voted on a poll Aug 28 17:42:59 DocScrutinizer05, how impossible is a specs bump? Aug 28 17:43:53 GeneralAntilles: for Neo900? Aug 28 18:55:27 dos1, yeah. Aug 28 18:55:43 i'd definitely grab a neo900 Aug 28 18:55:45 depending on price Aug 28 18:56:19 GeneralAntilles: some minor spec bump is very possible - we'll try to get the best parts we can afford and find Aug 28 18:56:41 major spec bump (like switching to OMAP4) is probably impossible at all Aug 28 18:57:09 just having usb ports that don't fall off, and some more ram would already do wonders Aug 28 18:58:33 you'll get both Aug 28 18:58:57 yeah then i'd grab one Aug 28 18:59:24 plus true USB-OTG, and a modem that's not telling you "no SIM detected" after 3 years Aug 28 18:59:28 nice Aug 28 19:00:07 that would definitely make the device a good bit more future proof Aug 28 19:00:30 GeneralAntilles: depends on the particular specs you want to bump Aug 28 19:02:04 regarding SoC we're pretty much limited by what's available and what would be compatible to fremantle Aug 28 19:02:17 I think the RAM is probably the biggest bottleneck. Aug 28 19:02:47 Ideally, I'd like an N900 formfactor device which can run Sailfish. Aug 28 19:03:12 18:59 < DocScrutinizer05> plus true USB-OTG, and a modem that's not telling you "no SIM detected" after 3 years <<<<------ how would this be guaranteed? Aug 28 19:03:19 Nikolaus said we theoretically could go OMAP4 since the increased height isn't a problem maybe in Neo900 - unlike GTA02/04 - but we would start to leave known ground Aug 28 19:03:34 Sicelo: hmm? Aug 28 19:03:40 In practice, there's always someone who will manage to rip out the usb ports Aug 28 19:03:41 OMAP4 would be a homerun. Aug 28 19:03:52 * ShadowJK has managed to rip out two usb ports on his desktop PC, but so far no N900 usb ports Aug 28 19:04:20 Software will be a big issue for omap4 though, I'd think Aug 28 19:04:35 there's no guarantee in life ever. But on GTA04 / Neo900 we use a modem module, and that hardly will suffer from popping-open solder points when you press too hard on the kbd Aug 28 19:05:01 i'm going to try to solder my n900's usb port soon Aug 28 19:05:09 i guess it's a good time to learn Aug 28 19:05:45 one of them is working intermittently so i don't want it to use it anymore until it's soldered and the other one i want to solder it before it starts breaking down Aug 28 19:06:36 ShadowJK: (software issue) that's what I think as well Aug 28 19:06:59 Hmm, different goals. I'd like something that'd work with a modern platform more than I want a faster Fremantle device. Aug 28 19:07:24 the whole purpose of Neo900 from a maemo community POV is to run maemo on it, preferably binary-compatible Aug 28 19:07:39 There are plenty of devices running "modern platforms" though Aug 28 19:07:50 exactly Aug 28 19:08:11 but no modern open platforms Aug 28 19:08:17 we're not going the doomed path of competing to iPhone et al, like N9 Aug 28 19:08:47 Win7Mac: oh? Aug 28 19:09:09 android isn't open? ;-P Aug 28 19:09:30 not for me Aug 28 19:09:52 I think android is just as open as maemo, just that android is way more clusterfscked Aug 28 19:10:26 and it's googlefsckedup Aug 28 19:10:28 maybe comparable to HARM Aug 28 19:11:20 meh, and fremantle has cherry and nokia-mail and ovi and all the closed blobs core apps from Nokia Aug 28 19:11:29 I was under the impression that LG Nexus 4 isn't totally impossible to swap out OS on, or whatever the currrent hacker favourite device for this is, the ones they use to host libhybris+Ubuntu or libhybris+Mer/Sailfish on.. Aug 28 19:11:40 so I honestly can't say maemo is more open than android Aug 28 19:12:19 ubuntu touch is interesting Aug 28 19:12:31 on a device with a keyboard and Mir running, it would be a decent maemo alternative Aug 28 19:12:41 well, "touch" it then. (ASCNR) Aug 28 19:17:03 "unrelated" http://wstaw.org/m/2013/08/28/plasma-desktopfx3743.png :-) Aug 28 19:18:03 well, maybe related to "USB not falling off" Aug 28 19:18:37 aw dammit i was at my aunt's today, and she has one of those usb otg adapters that fits inside the n900 Aug 28 19:18:42 forgot to steal it Aug 28 19:20:45 Well, there aren't any N900 formfactor devices out there. Aug 28 19:20:50 DocScrutinizer05: "Android" the core project/OS seems more open than Maemo from what i can tell... i mean, you can take a 100% open thing and get it to run on something as long as you know how to link it to the hardware. Maemo... i guess there's a free/non-free distinction in the repos, but Aug 28 19:22:48 GeneralAntilles: tbh I'd happily gone for N810 formfactor, if it was any feasible Aug 28 19:23:58 LjL-Alps: There are major structural issues. You end up with an android device, that there is no way to run linux apps on Aug 28 19:24:03 In general Aug 28 19:24:38 hi SpeedEvil Aug 28 19:24:47 hi Aug 28 19:26:20 * DocScrutinizer05 idly ponders to eventually abuse SpeedEvil and his expertise for QA and evaluation of GTA04 Aug 28 19:28:28 SpeedEvil: that's true but that's different from openness of the code... also, some could argue "general" linux apps aren't really any good to run on a phone. i'd say if porting them is easy, though, that's a big plus. Aug 28 19:28:51 LjL-Alps: depends Aug 28 19:28:56 LjL-Alps: To a degree - true. Aug 28 19:29:18 LjL-Alps: the problem arises when - for example - you want to add an authentication mode to the wifi config. Aug 28 19:29:22 or setup iptables Aug 28 19:29:24 Or ... Aug 28 19:29:27 a really decently written x11 app should run on embedded just fine Aug 28 19:29:41 with only very minor tweaks Aug 28 19:30:04 there is a significant problem with a consistent UI Aug 28 19:30:08 alas there's much bulls**t out there Aug 28 19:30:12 SpeedEvil, it's just not really Linux in any way other than being technically running a Linux kernel :P Aug 28 19:30:12 But android isn't really great at that anyway Aug 28 19:30:19 LjL-Alps: quite Aug 28 19:30:47 SpeedEvil: but other OS's are not Linux but are still open OS's, is all i'm saying Aug 28 19:31:06 LjL-Alps: (running linux kernel) not even that Aug 28 19:31:16 Android is better than ios - sure. Aug 28 19:31:33 eh i wasn't talking about open OS's Aug 28 19:31:37 Also - the powersaving is very much 'Oh - powersaving is too complex for app writers' Aug 28 19:31:38 err yes i was Aug 28 19:31:42 i wasn't talking about iOS Aug 28 19:31:45 in my book android kernel is as much linux as mach is Aug 28 19:32:06 maemos approach to powersaving was probably sane. Aug 28 19:32:09 and userland... :-x don't get me started Aug 28 19:32:19 SpeedEvil: what was maemo's approach? Aug 28 19:32:21 needed better tools though Aug 28 19:32:30 LjL-Alps: linux desktop Aug 28 19:32:34 LjL-Alps: It's the app writers problem. Aug 28 19:32:54 SpeedEvil: hmm. Aug 28 19:33:18 LjL-Alps: maemo approach is "no app shall hog cpu or any other resource for no good reason. When nothing to do: SLEEP!" Aug 28 19:33:34 This leads to silly stuff on android like persistant apps needing a notification active all the time Aug 28 19:34:10 DocScrutinizer05: i personally think this is something (among other things, security-related ones for instance) that on mobile OS's really begs to be kept under control by the OS, not just relied on application writer's goodwill Aug 28 19:34:29 meh Aug 28 19:35:04 You end up with stupid situations, like internet radios that pause if you switch away from the browser tab or the app Aug 28 19:35:16 on mass-market devices with commercial application stores with loads and loads of shit in them that's good approach Aug 28 19:35:26 ShadowJK: ack Aug 28 19:35:31 on device you own and you want to control (just like your PC) it sucks Aug 28 19:35:38 on maemo it works because devs know this Aug 28 19:35:53 some do ;-P Aug 28 19:35:55 SpeedEvil, apps that don't need to persist 100% of the time but can just respawn when there's enough free RAM to don't need that... while on the other hand, if you have something that *strictly needs to stay on* (because it's a persistent connection to IRC, for example), then in Android UI's situation, it makes total sense to not let the user be unaware of it Aug 28 19:36:00 korhojoa: the solution is not to make the OS dumber, it's to make the devs smarter Aug 28 19:36:18 "when there's enough free ram" Aug 28 19:36:20 for android there are so many people doing work that you eventually end up with someone making a shitty but popular application Aug 28 19:36:21 there's never enough free ram Aug 28 19:36:41 if you reduce ram usage, you have more ram for caching Aug 28 19:37:01 my busdriver is watching tv series while waiting at the stop Aug 28 19:37:44 has anyone figured out a way to make the n900 have more ram? i mean, has anyone even attempted it? Aug 28 19:38:01 that would probably require at least a new pcb, if not soc Aug 28 19:38:13 maemo handles low RAM amazingly well. Watch OOM in cooperation with HD kick out all the preloaded apps to recalim RAM Aug 28 19:38:18 well, i like Maemo as a Linux user who doesn't like having restrictions put on his computers (i'd like it much more if it were actually all open source, of course), but i just don't see how Maemo could have scaled to a mass market. while Android clearly has. Aug 28 19:38:28 DocScrutinizer05: what's HD? Aug 28 19:38:28 and restart them as soon as you add that swap partition ;-) Aug 28 19:38:38 hildon desktop Aug 28 19:38:56