**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Nov 22 03:00:00 2013
Nov 22 09:45:53 <LowMemory> ~afk
Nov 22 09:45:54 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, afk is Away From Keyboard
Nov 22 10:30:51 <vi__> What is the obsession with metal phones?
Nov 22 10:31:02 <vi__> Do people not realise metal blocks RF?
Nov 22 10:32:04 <mashina> "but cheap"
Nov 22 10:32:21 <mashina> ...but people don't realize metal can feel cheap too
Nov 22 10:32:35 <mashina> i have a stack of nokia C3s and they might have a metal back but it feels cheap
Nov 22 10:32:59 <mashina> my plastic N900? not so much. even a samsung (infamous for cheap plastic) feels fairly solid
Nov 22 12:46:57 <solofight> what tool do you guys use to convert your pc into a wifi hotspot ?
Nov 22 12:47:34 <solofight> i own a nokia n900 and when i try mhotspot tool - the device is not able to get an ip address from the software
Nov 22 12:47:38 <solofight> any ideas ?
Nov 22 12:50:14 <psycho_oreos> mobilehotspot tool turns your N900 into a wifi sort of hotspot. I don't know why you would want to do that when you want to turn your PC into a wifi hotspot.
Nov 22 12:51:53 <solofight> psycho_oreos: i have a usb data card internet connected to my PC. I want to convert my PC into a hotspot so that i can connect my n900 to it for internet
Nov 22 12:52:38 <psycho_oreos> solofight, so I'd use something like USB tethering, it seems miles easier.
Nov 22 12:53:08 <solofight> psycho_oreos: any suggestion on the tool to do that ?
Nov 22 12:54:05 <psycho_oreos> solofight, it is on the maemo wiki.
Nov 22 12:54:19 <psycho_oreos> Called something like USB networking.
Nov 22 13:00:23 <solofight> psycho_oreos: thanks - read about it in the maemo docs... but that procedure will only enable maemo devices to connect right ? But if i can make my laptop a wifihotspot then i can connect any devices right ?
Nov 22 13:01:21 <psycho_oreos> solofight, virtually any other devices can connect yes. Though you still need knowledge on networking in order to make sense of it all.
Nov 22 13:01:38 <solofight> psycho_oreos: i am a fast learner
Nov 22 13:02:32 <psycho_oreos> solofight, so learn TCP/IP networking. It will give you a huge insight of how to troubleshoot networking issues.
Nov 22 13:12:21 <psycho_oreos> To think collectively, nobody can learn TCP/IP completely in overnight. If you are looking for a more sane option in the time being. I suggest to look for a simpler solution rather than a do-all, be-all, end-all solution. That is get one device to work at a time if and when you need that other device to use your computer's internet connection rather than understanding the entire underlying protocols.
Nov 22 13:13:41 <psycho_oreos> Had it been me I would have deduced from a more easier option in the mean time as learning TCP/IP does not necessarily grant me the wisdom to tackle a simple problem at hand. solofight
Nov 22 13:26:33 <vi__> just run mobile hotspot shell script.
Nov 22 13:27:24 <vi__> It puts your NIC into master(?) mode and routes you through iptables.
Nov 22 13:28:33 <psycho_oreos> mobile hotspot.. what? on N900? master/AP mode on N900?
Nov 22 13:30:11 <winocm> https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/status/403751170298380288
Nov 22 13:30:14 <winocm> eheheheh
Nov 22 13:30:30 <winocm> still need to implement twl4030 keypad support later
Nov 22 13:30:33 <winocm> and watchdog
Nov 22 13:43:54 <vi__> psycho_oreos: ...yes.
Nov 22 13:44:00 <vi__> what is surprising about this?
Nov 22 13:44:53 <psycho_oreos> t... *facepalms* you do realise that is not real master/AP mode on N900 right?
Nov 22 14:06:57 <vi__> ...
Nov 22 14:07:01 <vi__> u wot mate.
Nov 22 14:09:22 <vi__> I thought the updated wl1251 driver supported ap mode.
Nov 22 14:09:26 <psycho_oreos> 1) I am not your mate, 2) master/AP mode on wl1251 has been widely discussed from long time ago.
Nov 22 14:09:34 <vi__> Don't facepalm at me son.
Nov 22 14:09:48 <vi__> Well fuck you too then.
Nov 22 14:10:04 <Wizzup> children
Nov 22 14:10:11 <Wizzup> we are all one under the teapot
Nov 22 14:29:51 <DocScrutinizer05> play nice, kids!
Nov 22 14:30:07 <DocScrutinizer05> softmac would allow AP mode
Nov 22 14:30:31 <DocScrutinizer05> if some smart hacker would implement a softmac for WL1251
Nov 22 14:30:38 <zamn900> hello
Nov 22 14:30:50 <DocScrutinizer05> aiui
Nov 22 14:31:43 <zamn900> what's up DocScrutinizer05 
Nov 22 14:32:34 <DocScrutinizer05> busy as usual
Nov 22 14:33:13 <DocScrutinizer05> softmac would need to exploit monitor and injection
Nov 22 14:33:54 <DocScrutinizer05> and aiui both has been enabled by the improved wlan drivers
Nov 22 14:35:12 <psycho_oreos> As I last understood it, proper master/AP mode requires tertiary firmware which TI will never release.
Nov 22 14:35:36 <DocScrutinizer05> for hardmac sure
Nov 22 14:35:50 <DocScrutinizer05> you understand the concept of softmac?
Nov 22 14:36:27 <psycho_oreos> Yeah roughly, the firmware sits on the host machine as a file requiring the host machine to shove that firmware onto the chip in order to make use of it.
Nov 22 14:36:46 <jaska> nah, softmac = host machine does the job of the tertiary firmware
Nov 22 14:36:53 <DocScrutinizer05> the whole stack is handled on Application Processor Environment (aka "in the driver") and the WLAN chip only used as PHY
Nov 22 14:36:53 <Hurrian> AP mode firmware for wl1251 was never released?
Nov 22 14:37:15 <DocScrutinizer05> psycho_oreos: nope, that's hardmac
Nov 22 14:37:27 <jaska> usually the wlan chip will do some of the timing-critical stuff even in softmac
Nov 22 14:37:34 <DocScrutinizer05> since the "cpu" that exectutes the firmware is in the WLAN chip
Nov 22 14:37:38 <psycho_oreos> DocScrutinizer05, hardmac requires flashing, softmac doesn't need that.
Nov 22 14:37:54 <DocScrutinizer05> that's correct however doesn't tell much
Nov 22 14:38:12 <DocScrutinizer05> though "flashing" is relative term here
Nov 22 14:38:32 <DocScrutinizer05> uploading firmware also is a valid way to run hardmac
Nov 22 14:39:04 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't matter if it's done once and stored in wlan flash or if it's done each time on chip init
Nov 22 14:39:59 <DocScrutinizer05> in softmac the whole stack is run on APE, while with hardmac the "firmware" runs on a cpu in wlan chip
Nov 22 14:40:14 <psycho_oreos> Initially hardmac's implmentation was into some EEPROM, though manufacturers have transitioned slowly away from EEPROM to more host dependent firmware.
Nov 22 14:41:20 <DocScrutinizer05> while that's partially correct representation of historical facts, it's quite unrelated to the differentiation between softmac and hardmac
Nov 22 14:41:28 <psycho_oreos> The real question here is, has the master/AP mode been finally implemented on N900?
Nov 22 14:41:46 <psycho_oreos> In other words, can one simply run hostapd and it will work?
Nov 22 14:42:13 <DocScrutinizer05> right, it is the question if somebody has created a comprehensive softmac for 1251
Nov 22 14:42:48 <psycho_oreos> ^ In a nutshell, no. Simply put.
Nov 22 14:42:51 <DocScrutinizer05> (since I don't hope for a AP-enabled firmware blob to show up ever)
Nov 22 14:43:12 <psycho_oreos> I wouldn't be holding my breath on one.
Nov 22 14:43:15 <DocScrutinizer05> (which would allow for hardmac-based AP mode)
Nov 22 14:44:45 <psycho_oreos> People often confuse mobilehotspot and the like program on N900 as if N900 has some proper master/AP mode. Technically that is not the case, clearly iwconfig tells one that it is in Ad-Hoc mode.
Nov 22 14:44:50 <DocScrutinizer05> jaska: yep
Nov 22 14:45:24 <DocScrutinizer05> psycho_oreos: also yep
Nov 22 14:45:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ~woli softmac
Nov 22 14:45:58 <DocScrutinizer05> ~wiki softmac
Nov 22 14:46:01 <infobot> At http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softmac (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{update|date=July 2013}} A 'wireless network interface controller' (WNIC) is a network interface controller which connects to a radio-based computer network rather than a wire-based network such as Token Ring or Ethernet. A WNIC, just like other NICs, works on the Layer 1 and Layer 2 of the OSI Model. A WNIC is an essential component for wireless desktop computer. This card uses an ...
Nov 22 14:47:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ~bash wikipedia
Nov 22 14:47:44 * infobot beats wikipedia with ksh
Nov 22 14:48:46 <psycho_oreos> Old prism54 driver website had a fairly good explanation of softmac drivers in a nutshell.
Nov 22 14:49:39 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.google.de/search?q=prism54+softmac
Nov 22 14:49:43 <psycho_oreos> Anyway we can go on forever endlessly discussing differences between hard and softmac. It doesn't change anything for the fact that wl1251 remains incapable of doing proper master/AP mode.
Nov 22 14:49:52 <DocScrutinizer05> dang, you beat me to it
Nov 22 14:50:12 <psycho_oreos> Haha, I can say we think alike lol.
Nov 22 14:50:35 <psycho_oreos> Well on that part that is..
Nov 22 14:50:56 <DocScrutinizer05> psycho_oreos: how so? wl1251 could support softmac and then anybody savvy enough can inplement proper AP mode
Nov 22 14:51:00 <Hurrian> thing is, i doubt you'll find a wl1251 AP mode firmware floating around, WiLink4.0 wasn't used on many devices.
Nov 22 14:51:25 <Hurrian> plus, implementing AP mode support in-driver for it would be an enormous PITA
Nov 22 14:51:59 <Hurrian> I just finished doing AP mode enablement for the N9, the commits add up to around half the driver in itself :/
Nov 22 14:52:06 <psycho_oreos> DocScrutinizer05, I thought wl1251 was already largely a softmac for that matter. Also yes anyone could implement it but nobody would actually do it. Which is a dilemma in itself.
Nov 22 14:52:45 <DocScrutinizer05> aiui packet injection allows WLAN chip to get used as "PHY" and thus defining packets to get sent completely under software control
Nov 22 14:53:18 <DocScrutinizer05> and packet injection enabled drivers have been published long time ago
Nov 22 14:53:29 <DocScrutinizer05> same goes for monitor mode and RX
Nov 22 14:53:31 <psycho_oreos> kvalo for instance would easily be able to write one up easily, afterall he was the one that ported the support for linux. Though would he release an master/AP capable driver/firmware? unlikely.
Nov 22 14:54:51 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wireless.kernel.org/en/users/Drivers/p54
Nov 22 14:54:58 <Hurrian> DocScrutinizer05: it'd be pretty much a PoC then - you'd have to be in promisc to grap ALL the frames from all STA and then filter it out, then decode packets.
Nov 22 14:55:19 <DocScrutinizer05> (fullmac=hardmac)
Nov 22 14:55:48 <DocScrutinizer05> Hurrian: that's exactly what softmac does
Nov 22 14:55:50 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Nov 22 14:56:30 <DocScrutinizer05> that's also the reason why we can't use softmac for embedded: it keeps CPU busy all the time and cuts thru battery in hours
Nov 22 14:56:55 <DocScrutinizer05> that however doesn't mean the wl1251 never could do it
Nov 22 14:57:08 <Hurrian> I guess having a dumb RF frontend passing you the frames saves you the FFT needed to decode it from all the other RF, but all that processing has to take some crazy toll on the N900's 3430
Nov 22 14:57:45 <DocScrutinizer05> FFT?
Nov 22 14:58:02 <DocScrutinizer05> we're not talking about SDR here
Nov 22 14:58:25 <DocScrutinizer05> WLAN tuners/decoders are usually not FFT based
Nov 22 14:58:29 <Hurrian> yep, yep, I meant that compared to full SDR, it's not as big a performance hit, but still, it's a big performance hit :P
Nov 22 14:58:36 <Hurrian> ah.
Nov 22 14:58:41 <DocScrutinizer05> way too mcuh overhead for nothing
Nov 22 14:59:58 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not comletely sure which modulation WLAN is using, but I'm absolutely sure they use hw-demodulators in the WLAN chip
Nov 22 15:01:22 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11n-2009#Data_rates
Nov 22 15:02:47 <DocScrutinizer05> WLAN chips use discrete tuner and hw decoders/demodulators
Nov 22 15:02:54 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik
Nov 22 15:03:09 <DocScrutinizer05> that's the "PHY" level
Nov 22 15:03:56 <psycho_oreos> Ahh I see where I went wrong with my quote, I was generalising. Let me correct my quote. I meant that in WL1251's current stance it is incapable of doing master/AP mode, for the greater public.
Nov 22 15:04:10 <DocScrutinizer05> on top of that works either a fullmac/hardmac protocol stack on a dedicated CPU in the WLAN chip, or a softmac protocol stack implemented on the host in a softmac driver
Nov 22 15:04:53 <DocScrutinizer05> wl1251 by design is a hardmac chip
Nov 22 15:05:14 <DocScrutinizer05> with the firmware getting loaded on each chip init from APE
Nov 22 15:05:49 <DocScrutinizer05> (other hardmac chips may have the firmware on local flash storage)
Nov 22 15:06:31 <DocScrutinizer05> but you can run almost every arbitrary hardmac-enabled chip in softmac mode
Nov 22 15:06:56 <DocScrutinizer05> suspending the chip's CPU and controlling the PHY aka radio directly from APE
Nov 22 15:07:26 <psycho_oreos> That's what prism54 project did, making a hardmac act as a softmac where everything is much more easier to work with.
Nov 22 15:08:03 <DocScrutinizer05> prism54 had a CPU and most cards came with a hardmac firmware, yes
Nov 22 15:08:27 <psycho_oreos> I guess wl1251 is the same more or less. I mean a real hardmac would still boot without the firmware in place in theory. However it was made to act like a softmac because it was probably far easier to implement.
Nov 22 15:08:34 <DocScrutinizer05> not all cards came with a flash to store the firmware on it
Nov 22 15:08:53 <psycho_oreos> Yeah because of the cost factor supposedly, but there's other contributing factors.
Nov 22 15:09:41 <DocScrutinizer05> nevertheless you could run all prism54 in softmac mode, not using the on-chip CPU at all
Nov 22 15:10:11 <DocScrutinizer05> or just to forward register values to inerface and vice versa
Nov 22 15:10:19 <psycho_oreos> That was what gave birth to p54, amongst two other main issues when dealing with fullmac mode.
Nov 22 15:11:02 <DocScrutinizer05> the prism54 project also worked on a FOSS hardmac "firmware" implementation
Nov 22 15:11:13 <DocScrutinizer05> but afaik that got abandoned eventually
Nov 22 15:11:41 <psycho_oreos> That sort of reminds me of b43's fwwf project.
Nov 22 15:11:51 <DocScrutinizer05> since the documentation of the on-chip CPU and system at large never been comprehensive enough to make that FOSS hardmac a reall success
Nov 22 15:12:01 <psycho_oreos> I mean in a different sense of course, it was a FOSS alternative to softmac but was free.
Nov 22 15:12:54 <DocScrutinizer05> there's a working softmac FOSS implementation for prism54
Nov 22 15:12:56 <psycho_oreos> Supposedly the history states that intersil was once very open about the specs with their hardware, hence that was why the support was widespread. After conexant took over, the policy radically changed.
Nov 22 15:13:35 <psycho_oreos> Not islsm I think it is right?
Nov 22 15:13:44 <DocScrutinizer05> again: softmac: code runs on linux APE CPU. Hardmac: code runs on a dedicated CPU insde WLAN chip
Nov 22 15:15:33 <DocScrutinizer05> http://lekernel.net/prism54/faq.html  ;-)
Nov 22 15:17:02 <psycho_oreos> Heh cheers, looking at this old link brings back nostalgia. Yeah freemac was the right word.
Nov 22 15:18:33 <DocScrutinizer05> >>SoftMAC works with all chipsets, even those designed for FullMAC<<
Nov 22 15:19:33 <psycho_oreos> Yeah again, that was what became p54 project. Forcing fullmac devices to act as softmac so that they are on the same level playing field as those softmac by design chipsets.
Nov 22 15:20:17 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Nov 22 15:20:45 <DocScrutinizer05> and that could basically be done with any hardmac chip
Nov 22 15:21:22 <DocScrutinizer05> and nothing stops you from implementing AP-mode aka infrastructure-mode into your softmac
Nov 22 15:23:23 <DocScrutinizer05> btw lekernel is an active user in #openmoko-cdevel and #qi-hardware
Nov 22 15:24:08 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, maybe not so active in #openmoko-cdevel lately
Nov 22 15:24:09 <psycho_oreos> In theory of course for the wl1251, the fact still remains that wl1251 does not have master/AP mode in its current implementation for the public.
Nov 22 15:24:29 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, the firmware doesn't support AP mode
Nov 22 15:24:38 <psycho_oreos> That handle brings back memories, I remember talking to him one day about p54u stuff coincidentally.
Nov 22 15:24:48 <DocScrutinizer05> and possibly the on-chip CPU is simply not capable of supporting it
Nov 22 15:26:27 <psycho_oreos> Initially people were hoping for a tertiary firmware, but of course that never happened. To implement master/AP mode on the host machine still requires someone with intimate knowledge of the wl1251 chipset. Which again points back to kvalo.
Nov 22 15:31:52 <psycho_oreos> I was looking for an old screenshot of prism54 with iwconfig when it is not associated. It had a cool description (for what it was back then). Also I remember earlier NIT devices featured STelectronics wlan which were similar to something off the intersil family.
Nov 22 15:32:00 <DocScrutinizer05> >>We are pleased to inform all our Jolla pre-booking customers that you will soon receive instructions on how to complete your order via our webshop. ... In order to secure your priority delivery during December, please make sure you have completed your purchase by 2 December, 2013.<<
Nov 22 15:32:19 <DocScrutinizer05> [email]
Nov 22 15:33:41 <sono> don't tempt me doc
Nov 22 15:33:57 <sono> i only need one phone =p
Nov 22 15:37:15 <psycho_oreos> Ahh found something that would suffice: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-461617.html (first thread, check the iwconfig output). Pure nostalgia when using prism54 driver.
Nov 22 15:38:57 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: wl1251 using mac80211 so it is sotfmac driver
Nov 22 15:39:16 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
Nov 22 15:39:20 <DocScrutinizer05> hardly
Nov 22 15:40:30 <Pali> TI wl1251 driver support -- This will enable TI wl1251 driver support. The drivers make use of the mac80211 stack.
Nov 22 15:40:52 <Pali> wl1251 is softmac driver for sure
Nov 22 15:41:17 <Pali> there is monitor mode which comes from mac80211 stack
Nov 22 15:42:29 <Pali> p54 driver is softmac too (it using new softmac firmware also for old devices which was previously hardmac...)
Nov 22 15:42:49 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: but softmac is not enough for AP mode
Nov 22 15:43:15 <Pali> driver/firmware must support AP
Nov 22 15:43:21 <psycho_oreos> Hahaha we were just discussing that moments ago, seems like the ramifications just don't end. :D
Nov 22 15:43:31 <Pali> and our wl1251 firmware does not support it
Nov 22 15:43:53 <Pali> only month ago TI released redistributable firmware for wl1251
Nov 22 15:44:13 <Pali> and md5sum of that released firmware is same as in n900
Nov 22 15:44:44 <psycho_oreos> o.O lol in other words TI is still firm on their policy of no master/AP mode.
Nov 22 15:44:58 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Ti wl1251 is a softmac (software based Media Access Control) and has firmware sitting on the oneNAND which normally is uploaded<< sounds pretty much paradox ( http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1085471&postcount=41 )
Nov 22 15:46:20 <DocScrutinizer05> softmac == NO FIRMWARE
Nov 22 15:46:25 <DocScrutinizer05> basically
Nov 22 15:47:09 <DocScrutinizer05> since firmware is running on CPU on WLAN chip, which is pretty much the definition of hardmac
Nov 22 15:47:19 <Pali> DocScrutinizer05: no, with softmac driver you are implementing MAC layer in kernel driver, but this is not enough for AP
Nov 22 15:47:44 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, that's what I'm elaborating on since ~ 1h
Nov 22 15:48:39 <Pali> hmmm... maybe it is possible to use packet injection to implement AP in SW?
Nov 22 15:48:39 <DocScrutinizer05> and if MAC layer was implemented completely in kernel driver, then our dear battery was depleted in 4h
Nov 22 15:48:53 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: see what I wrote above
Nov 22 15:49:24 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, softmac/software based AP would exploit injection mode
Nov 22 15:49:34 <psycho_oreos> You know, there was something else also ironically funny. nokia supposedly patented the tethering to computer or something which forces android phones to come with master/AP mode when using something like wifi hotspot. Now there are some old android devices with wl1251 chipset in them I am certain. I wonder how will the manufacturers treat those instance? still enforce Ad-Hoc? or not have a compatible program for wifi hotspot with affected devices?
Nov 22 15:49:36 <DocScrutinizer05> and monitor mode
Nov 22 15:50:51 <psycho_oreos> Yeah in fact aircrack-ng's project specifically targets that, notably the tool is airbase-ng.
Nov 22 15:51:12 <psycho_oreos> One is able to create a fake AP which would broadcast in monitor mode as if it is a real AP.
Nov 22 15:51:23 <Pali> maybe we can ask hostapd developers if it is possible to implement AP support with monitor + packet injection
Nov 22 15:52:14 <psycho_oreos> I somehow don't think that is a good idea.
Nov 22 15:54:09 <psycho_oreos> wifi chipset manufacturers are already somewhat unhappy that rfmon was found by hackers and made it available to the public. If one were to implement AP support via the loophole would enrage manufacturers to patch rfmon.
Nov 22 15:59:27 <psycho_oreos> broadcom for instance I bet deliberately removed rfmon functionality from their wl driver but have left the functionality within the windows driver: http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2008/Nov/506
Nov 22 20:45:14 <Ken-Young> I have an N950 which is in perfect shape, and which I never use.   I can't sell it, because I don't really own it; It's on "loan" from Nokia, and I'm pretty confident they'll never come looking for it.   What should I do with it?   Is there any community project that could really make good use of a "donated" N950?
Nov 22 21:09:35 <DocScrutinizer05> Ken-Young: nope
Nov 22 21:09:55 <DocScrutinizer05> My suggestion: sell it, but for not less than 1500$
Nov 22 21:10:18 <DocScrutinizer05> or simply keep it
Nov 22 21:10:27 <DocScrutinizer05> to brag ;-)
Nov 22 21:10:44 <sixwheeledbeast> I'd suggest donating to a future Coding Comp if you really don't want it.
Nov 22 21:11:00 <DocScrutinizer05> that's a brilliant idea
Nov 22 21:11:04 <Win7Mac> great idea!
Nov 22 21:11:27 <Ken-Young> DocScrutinizer05, I wouldn't feel right about selling it; I feel bad enough already for having let it sit idle for so long.   I don't own it.   I've just *got* it.
Nov 22 21:11:48 <Ken-Young> I guess I should see if some Mer or Sailfish person wants it.
Nov 22 21:11:49 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, I know the contract
Nov 22 21:12:11 <DocScrutinizer05> definitely mer and sailfish are not nokia ;-)
Nov 22 21:12:28 <Ken-Young> I'd certainly be willing to put it up as the prize in a coding competition.
Nov 22 21:12:30 <DocScrutinizer05> rather nokia's hardest competitor
Nov 22 21:12:53 <DocScrutinizer05> that would be best use, and actually in the sense of the contract you probably signed
Nov 22 21:13:49 <DocScrutinizer05> all the loaners been supposed to get handed on to next developer when not used anymore (admittedly on Nokia requesting that)
Nov 22 21:14:41 <DocScrutinizer05> I think a pize for a competition on maemo coding is 100% in spirit of that regulation
Nov 22 21:15:05 <sixwheeledbeast> This is why I suggest CC, it will hopefully find a dev willing to code for harmattan. That was the point of them after all ;)
Nov 22 21:15:17 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Nov 22 21:15:30 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, afk for an inverview ;-)
Nov 22 21:15:37 <sixwheeledbeast> o/
Nov 22 21:16:28 <Ken-Young> Hmmmm - I'd be more excited by a Fremantle competition.
Nov 22 21:31:49 <sixwheeledbeast> :nod: 
Nov 23 00:21:43 <arvut> is this channel still alive?
Nov 23 00:22:55 <winocm> i hope so
Nov 23 00:25:11 <arvut> =)
Nov 23 00:25:37 <arvut> I thought of maybe installing a custom dvorak layout on my n9, think it is possible?
Nov 23 00:25:47 <arvut>  #n9 is pretty dead
Nov 23 00:25:57 <arvut> and so is #meego
Nov 23 00:26:01 <arvut> and #harmattan
Nov 23 00:27:28 <mashina> when you do maybe consider relabelling keys
Nov 23 00:31:40 <arvut> well, I have a notebook that uses a special dvorak layout that I also use on my desktop. if I ssh to that notebook, I have to use the same layout in order to log in.
Nov 23 00:31:58 <arvut> my n9 uses qwerty and that fails when trying to log in
Nov 23 00:32:08 <arvut> so you see the problem =)
Nov 23 00:33:53 <sono> huh
Nov 23 00:34:52 <arvut> the password has to be typed using that dvorak layout, else login fails
Nov 23 00:38:25 <sono> no, that is irrelevant
Nov 23 00:38:42 <sono> keyboard layout is a strictly local affair handled way before ssh 
Nov 23 00:39:30 <sono> i suppose you are mistyping something due to the layout switch?
Nov 23 00:40:13 <Hurrian> @arvut: making custom layouts for the N9 is possible, just make new XMLs from those in /usr/share/meegotouch/virtual-keyboard/layouts .
Nov 23 00:40:20 <arvut> so I should be able to login using a different keyboard layout then?
Nov 23 00:40:44 <arvut> Hurrian: I have the layout to use, its called svorakA1
Nov 23 00:40:48 <Hurrian> yep, activate all layouts you need, just swipe to choose between them
Nov 23 00:41:32 <Hurrian> arvut: is it in a Mallit XML or a plain layout of the keys?
Nov 23 00:41:33 <arvut> ill try to load it, do you load it with loadkeys on n9 or another command?
Nov 23 00:42:17 <arvut> Hurrian: its one of those command-line layouts, svorakA1.tar.gz
Nov 23 00:43:20 <winocm> Hurrian: is that you.
Nov 23 00:43:37 <Hurrian> The N9 keyboard doesn't use raw keymaps, you need to use the XML configuration for Maliit.
Nov 23 00:43:48 <Hurrian> it's a plain key layout thing so it should be easy to understand
Nov 23 00:44:15 <Hurrian> winocm: looking for a real hw platform for your xnu thing?
Nov 23 00:46:41 <arvut> oh
Nov 23 00:47:09 <arvut> actually that was a typo, its called svorak.map.gz
Nov 23 00:47:31 <arvut> I load it in gentoo with "loadkeys svorak.map.gz"
Nov 23 00:47:51 <arvut> but n9 is debian-based linux so I dunno if it uses the same command for loading keys
Nov 23 00:48:12 <Hurrian> well, about that, uhh, you do know the touchscreen doesn't exactly send letters to the HID layer :P
Nov 23 00:48:56 * winocm wants to get an N900 soon..
Nov 23 00:49:29 <arvut> its a pretty neat device
Nov 23 00:49:39 <arvut> but I mostly use my n9 these days
Nov 23 00:50:54 <arvut> I want a n950 tho :P saw one go2000 euro on ebay.. so tho..
Nov 23 00:51:05 <arvut> so pretty much wont happen, ever
Nov 23 00:51:26 <arvut> s/go2000/go for 2000/
Nov 23 00:51:38 <arvut> damn connection is getting saggy
Nov 23 01:10:08 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Nov 23 02:59:59 2013