**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 03 02:59:58 2013
Dec 03 03:08:22 <WebTester> it works.
Dec 03 03:30:48 <solo50> i installed cssu on my n900then when i try installing my yappari it says conflick application package i need ur help
Dec 03 07:52:38 <freemangordon> how cute: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1392023&postcount=68
Dec 03 07:53:20 <freemangordon> honestly, why "we" still try to reach jolla is beyond me
Dec 03 07:53:45 <freemangordon> this is a corporation. period.
Dec 03 08:04:04 <thedead1440_> I don't see how doc's post was an affront when it was simply stating past experiences. 
Dec 03 08:06:14 <FIQ> so apparently HAM thinks it's a Good Idea(TM) to reload all repositories after each package upgrade at the update dialog
Dec 03 08:06:19 * FIQ begs to differ
Dec 03 08:39:53 <ruskie> http://www.gizmag.com/if-convertible-ultrabook-tablet-smartphone/29997/
Dec 03 09:11:13 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I think it's the building of the dependencies-datastructure  that takes forever
Dec 03 09:11:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and it makes some sense to rebuild that data after a package got installed
Dec 03 09:11:49 <DocScrutinizer05> well, maybe
Dec 03 10:23:08 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05: it does? even taking the fact into account that it did *just that* right before you actually performed the update
Dec 03 10:24:23 <DocScrutinizer05> by installing or deinstalling some package you change the dependencies on your machine
Dec 03 10:28:02 <DocScrutinizer05> of course apt could just update the existing dependency-tree and then tell HAM which packages to add or to remove from the list of available/installable/deinstallable packages, but I guess that's not how the API between apt-worker and HAM is designed
Dec 03 10:28:28 <DocScrutinizer05> NB I never really looked into all this - so I might be wrong 
Dec 03 13:37:36 <vi__> You do not realise how incredible the accounts integration is on fremantle till you have used android.
Dec 03 13:37:52 <vi__> Get this...
Dec 03 13:38:21 <vi__> To use skype or some such shit you actually have to open their crumby client and use an alternative dialler.
Dec 03 13:39:05 <jaska> heh
Dec 03 13:39:44 <vi__> There is zero integration.
Dec 03 13:39:51 <vi__> And spam coming at you from every angle.
Dec 03 13:40:12 <vi__> To top it off you have no idea what is running, how or indeed what resources it is using.
Dec 03 13:41:28 <vi__> I digress.
Dec 03 13:41:40 <vi__> Fremantle on better hardware.
Dec 03 13:41:45 <vi__> :'(
Dec 03 14:09:29 <grr> moin ;)
Dec 03 14:19:40 <FIQ> skype is basically as well integrated into the OS as just plain calling
Dec 03 14:29:26 <vi__> on maemo it is.
Dec 03 14:29:31 <vi__> on android, not so much.
Dec 03 16:46:50 <qwerty123> Hi. How to increase /tmp in easy debian? Its 6 mb. 
Dec 03 16:50:12 <DocScrutinizer05> chem|st: I don't give a flying F* about any blue/orange theming in default skin of tmo (I'm using  "-- Classic Light --" anyway ;-D), but please tell my I got that wrong that you seem to suggest to change URL of tmo and honestly think this could pan out if only somebody edits wiki with a sed command
Dec 03 16:51:44 <chem|st> hehe nope
Dec 03 16:52:19 <chem|st> I was just about telling concerns and that we need someone to clean
Dec 03 16:52:33 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah
Dec 03 16:52:46 <FIQ> change URL of tmo
Dec 03 16:52:47 <FIQ> why?
Dec 03 16:52:56 <FIQ> is there a good reason for it?
Dec 03 16:53:01 <DocScrutinizer05> we cleaned out Nokia, a few months ago. On their special request
Dec 03 16:53:02 <chem|st> stop please!
Dec 03 16:53:25 <chem|st> FIQ: we are not changing anything for now
Dec 03 16:53:33 <FIQ> oh ok
Dec 03 16:53:37 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly caffeine deficit
Dec 03 16:53:43 <chem|st> ;)
Dec 03 16:53:56 <FIQ> IMO changing urls would be a lot of effort for... nothing? I dunno, but it would be a lot of effort anyway
Dec 03 16:54:05 <FIQ> Unless you at least allow redirection from the old URL
Dec 03 16:54:11 <FIQ> then it would work I guess
Dec 03 16:54:13 <DocScrutinizer05> YES FIQ! we all thnk the same
Dec 03 16:54:28 <DocScrutinizer05> ;-)
Dec 03 16:55:26 <DocScrutinizer05> I've been most radical in suggesting a CNAME from sailfishtalk.com to talk.maemo.org/sailfish/
Dec 03 16:56:06 <DocScrutinizer05> and vBul could prolly even automatically switch skin on the vHost
Dec 03 16:56:35 <marmistrz> freemangordon: ping
Dec 03 16:56:48 <DocScrutinizer05> where skin even could imply "hide all other subforums"
Dec 03 16:56:54 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05: CNAME to a directory? wat
Dec 03 16:57:27 <FIQ> CNAME only allows domain aliases to other domains, not domains+directories... unless we mean 2 different things
Dec 03 16:57:27 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: for you I can write it RFC style ;-)
Dec 03 16:58:07 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: I used 2021 syntax, not yet published and commonly known
Dec 03 16:58:22 <DocScrutinizer05> :-P
Dec 03 16:59:27 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05: :P
Dec 03 16:59:38 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: you know, starting 2015 they plan to get a worldwide out-of-band sidechannel to go along the side of "normal" internet
Dec 03 16:59:50 <FIQ> ahh
Dec 03 17:00:02 <FIQ> of course
Dec 03 17:00:44 <SAiF> I think I fried my IR
Dec 03 17:00:47 <DocScrutinizer05> iseful for ICMP too
Dec 03 17:00:51 <DocScrutinizer05> useful even
Dec 03 17:00:52 <SAiF> is there a way to test?
Dec 03 17:01:00 <DocScrutinizer05> err
Dec 03 17:01:01 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Dec 03 17:01:15 <SAiF> how?
Dec 03 17:01:20 <DocScrutinizer05> get two mirrors or a second videocamera
Dec 03 17:01:34 <SAiF> adn?
Dec 03 17:01:38 <SAiF> and?
Dec 03 17:01:39 <DocScrutinizer05> operate IR LED and watch it by a camera
Dec 03 17:01:51 <SAiF> how to operate IR LED?
Dec 03 17:02:13 <DocScrutinizer05> doing this with N900 camera is proven to work but tricky without a second N900, thus the mirrors
Dec 03 17:02:30 <freemangordon> SAiF: install pierogi or irreco
Dec 03 17:02:49 <DocScrutinizer05> well, I used irreco for that, but I'm absolutely sure there are other apps and also some sysnode
Dec 03 17:03:03 <marmistrz> freemangordon: I have a question about the autobuilder
Dec 03 17:03:07 <SAiF> I was using pierogi, first of all I was getting outputs while scanning. for remote.
Dec 03 17:03:11 <DocScrutinizer05> tv-b-gone comes to mind
Dec 03 17:03:20 <SAiF> but now pierogi is showing some, error, 
Dec 03 17:03:38 <SAiF> I doubt, i fried the IR
Dec 03 17:03:49 <DocScrutinizer05> pierogi is pretty screwed by design
Dec 03 17:04:07 <SAiF> ^hi freemangordon.   
Dec 03 17:04:17 <marmistrz> freemangordon: Are all length pubkeys supported? After losing my previous key, I decided to copy my desktop pubkey
Dec 03 17:04:21 <freemangordon> SAiF: hi!
Dec 03 17:04:26 <FIQ> SAiF: if an application shows an error, my usual first thought is not "ok, hardware error"
Dec 03 17:04:33 <DocScrutinizer05> hard to believe you could fry the LED, it's driven at feeble level
Dec 03 17:04:51 <FIQ> but rather my last, after debugging it a bit :D
Dec 03 17:05:28 <marmistrz> freemangordon: IIRC, it was longer than the previous one (which was working)
Dec 03 17:05:28 <freemangordon> marmistrz: hmm? care to elaborate a bit? what keys, where?
Dec 03 17:05:38 <marmistrz> I'm uploading right now the pubkey
Dec 03 17:05:44 <freemangordon> aah, ok
Dec 03 17:05:45 <SAiF> thats good to hear..  I dont care if it works or not
Dec 03 17:05:51 <marmistrz> http://marmistrz.comli.com/public/id_rsa.pub
Dec 03 17:05:56 <marmistrz> at the autobuilder
Dec 03 17:06:06 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05: speaking of which, I suspect that my N900 has a broken BT as it refuses to find any devices at all (and there has been several reflashes between the issue, and it hasn't ever disappeared so I strongly doubt it's firmware error)
Dec 03 17:06:07 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, that's sysop domain
Dec 03 17:06:07 <marmistrz> I uploaded it yesterday (~24 hrs ago)
Dec 03 17:06:11 <freemangordon> marmistrz: no idea, but I guess you should follow the instructions on garage
Dec 03 17:06:15 <FIQ> any idea how to verify it?
Dec 03 17:06:22 <DocScrutinizer05> not exactly, but almost
Dec 03 17:06:29 <SAiF> oops sorry seems like you are in the middle of a serious discussion
Dec 03 17:06:32 <FIQ> there isn't really any errors
Dec 03 17:06:37 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon has no permissions  to mess with user accounts
Dec 03 17:06:41 <FIQ> but it always says that there's no devices nearby
Dec 03 17:06:44 <SAiF> bye freemangordon, FIQ
Dec 03 17:06:50 <FIQ> regardless of whether or not that'st rue
Dec 03 17:06:55 <FIQ> *that's true
Dec 03 17:07:31 <marmistrz> freemangordon: the keys generated in the scratchbox are shorter than the ones generated by raring. My concern is: are the longer keys unsupported?
Dec 03 17:07:36 <FIQ> and (before I ever did a reflash when the error appeared the first time) the existing paired things didn't work either
Dec 03 17:07:53 <DocScrutinizer05> marmistrz: sync from garage to builder might take 24 or even 48h
Dec 03 17:08:47 <marmistrz> DocScrutinizer05: thx
Dec 03 17:08:52 <marmistrz> I'll wait patiently :)
Dec 03 17:09:34 <DocScrutinizer05> I think the cronjob runs only once a day, and it's not unheard that it fails halfway thru
Dec 03 17:10:04 <DocScrutinizer05> if you're in a hurry, ask fremangordon to copy the key manually
Dec 03 17:10:20 <DocScrutinizer05> or xes or warfare
Dec 03 17:10:34 <marmistrz> No hurry ;) If I was in a hurry, I'd have used the web interface :) but thanks
Dec 03 17:10:44 <DocScrutinizer05> yw
Dec 03 17:11:20 <DocScrutinizer05> the usersync cronjob deploys the user credentials from garage to all the other VM
Dec 03 17:11:37 <DocScrutinizer05> at least it's supposed to do
Dec 03 17:11:58 <DocScrutinizer05> we already know it fails for deleting users, as well as for certain config changes
Dec 03 17:12:46 <DocScrutinizer05> I suggested to chage that crap to event-triggered on garage, maybe 6 months ago
Dec 03 17:13:00 <DocScrutinizer05> but we have too little manpower to sanitize that stuff
Dec 03 17:48:37 <marmistrz> DocScrutinizer05: did you notice the gconf-cleaner package polling the extras-cauldron-list? Maybe it'd be good to remove it's (as it's broken)
Dec 03 17:49:17 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry?
Dec 03 17:50:06 <DocScrutinizer05> gconf-cleaner package polling the extras-cauldron-list ??? o.O
Dec 03 18:17:25 <venemo_ff> hey
Dec 03 18:17:39 <venemo_ff> how's the neo900 going?
Dec 03 18:19:18 <grr> suddenly it become very popular.
Dec 03 18:19:46 <grr> all major portals are writing about it. 
Dec 03 18:22:42 <ecc3g> i do wonder about its software compatibility with existing software, that has to be the hardest thing with closed source all around...
Dec 03 18:23:35 <anYc> not if as much as possible stays the same
Dec 03 18:24:07 <anYc> and that's the major design goal
Dec 03 18:24:13 <anYc> (afaik)
Dec 03 18:24:14 <venemo_ff> yeah
Dec 03 18:24:26 <ecc3g> eh... everything changed, new SOC, new modem, etc.,etc.
Dec 03 18:24:31 <anYc> although people work on replacing the closed parts
Dec 03 18:24:39 <ecc3g> will the camera the same even?
Dec 03 18:24:41 <venemo_ff> I'm surprised by its popularity
Dec 03 18:24:54 <anYc> yeah, with compatible parts or parts that have oss drivers
Dec 03 18:25:42 <anYc> take a look into the FAQ
Dec 03 18:26:30 <anYc> if I remember correctly, only 3d (that's not required for the UI) is closed
Dec 03 18:28:05 <lufu> There is also #neo900 btw.
Dec 03 18:28:34 <grr> Neo900 project became popular with actual release of Jolla. What a coincidence...
Dec 03 18:28:55 <DocScrutinizer05> anYc: that's about kernel
Dec 03 18:29:33 <DocScrutinizer05> for maemo5  the picture looks different: we have a number of middleware and app-level blobs we need to patch or replace
Dec 03 18:31:51 <anYc> ah ok, so they depend on specific HW features?
Dec 03 18:32:43 <anYc> thought they're only required to make SW fully OSS
Dec 03 18:39:21 <grr> I saw recently brand new (with the QR sticker on LCD) costs in Poland for 1250PLN. New N9 was much cheaper. 
Dec 03 18:40:28 <sequantz> I bought my N9 for 900PLN in May 2012
Dec 03 18:40:35 <sequantz> brand new
Dec 03 18:46:08 <grr> I asked the shopkeeper why the N9 is cheaper. He said, you know, it's just NOT the same. :)
Dec 03 18:46:25 <anYc> poland doesn't use euros? didn't know that
Dec 03 18:46:55 <grr> nope, it does not.
Dec 03 18:47:26 <anYc> imho, that's one of the few nice things for people about europe :)
Dec 03 18:48:15 <anYc> no checks and money one has to exchange
Dec 03 18:49:46 <sequantz> euros in Poland? not yet :D
Dec 03 18:50:28 <sequantz> you can buy new n9 for 750 PLN, but those n9 are imported from China/Hong Kong/Singapore
Dec 03 18:50:47 <grr> the concept was good, but they screwed it up a bit. or two bit. and no parity check. :)
Dec 03 18:51:10 <grr> i don't like N9. I was disapointing smartphone.
Dec 03 18:51:22 <sequantz> :)
Dec 03 18:53:51 <grr> I still use n900. can't replace it with anything else.
Dec 03 18:55:00 <sequantz> i'm looking for n900 now
Dec 03 18:55:50 <sequantz> but many of them are in horrible condition ;)
Dec 03 18:57:55 <grr> You can still find a brand new sometimes.
Dec 03 18:58:59 <sequantz> yeah, but they are too expensive ;)
Dec 03 18:59:18 <grr> They are.
Dec 03 19:30:43 <Venemo> so, I'm quite surprised by how many people actually funded the Neo900
Dec 03 19:30:57 <Venemo> it reminded me to the good old times
Dec 03 19:31:08 <Venemo> I kind of still miss the hardware keyboard
Dec 03 19:49:12 <DocScrutinizer05> then go ahead do your donation ;-)
Dec 03 20:00:16 <x0rn> hey guys. can anyone help me in understanding of how to calculate current price for one Neo900 device? i read FAQ, but im not sure that i got all the rules clearly. so, what donation should i do to get complete device for sure?
Dec 03 20:01:30 <Defiant> afaik currently you can just donate >100euro right now and pay the rest later
Dec 03 20:03:42 <sequantz> so, how "big" is the rest? :D
Dec 03 20:04:00 <x0rn> k, and when i am to pay the rest? and how to calculate the rest? (=
Dec 03 20:04:34 <x0rn> sequantz: hehe.. yes %)
Dec 03 20:04:58 <Defiant> x0rn: have you seen the forum thread?
Dec 03 20:06:22 <x0rn> Defiant: yes, but it has more than 100 pages. i read about microphone, audio codecs, etc. but havent found donations.
Dec 03 20:07:22 <x0rn> Defiant: if to consider my eng knowledge -- i totally stuck in understanding of donation system ='(
Dec 03 20:07:24 <Defiant> x0rn: I know, I have followed it over time, but in my Opinion only the first post is the one you really need.
Dec 03 20:09:42 <jake42> http://neo900.org/faq#cost
Dec 03 20:11:05 <x0rn> jake42: i saw, 500-700 EUR for motherboard and +150 to complete device, but "Those prices are just early estimations, are subject to change and depend heavily on number of orders."
Dec 03 20:11:58 <x0rn> jake42: i just trying to understand how that estimations changed after completion of Phase 4 (200 devices) and how to calculate real price atm
Dec 03 20:12:25 <jake42> x0rn: yes, as they haven't sourced all the parts yet, no one can say for sure how much
Dec 03 20:12:52 <Defiant> right now they can estimate the price only based on prior experience..
Dec 03 20:13:17 <jake42> which is somewhere between 500 and 700 :P
Dec 03 20:13:52 <jake42> it nothing like going to the mall :)
Dec 03 20:14:12 <jake42> s/it/it's/
Dec 03 20:14:12 <infobot> jake42 meant: it's nothing like going to the mall :)
Dec 03 20:15:05 <x0rn> thx, i understand now. and one more question -- "when?". for example -- i donated 100+ EUR and now im able to buy device, after i paid the rest. how can i get know that they are shipping current devices, so i can pay the rest right now and get one?
Dec 03 20:15:42 <grr> there are not any interesting gadgets in the mall.
Dec 03 20:16:00 <jake42> x0rn: be sure that you will be informed when shipping starts
Dec 03 20:16:23 <jake42> but that will take another few months
Dec 03 20:16:51 <jake42> I *heard* something like second or third quarter
Dec 03 20:17:23 <grr> porting freemantle seems to be a major issue. unless the new soc is downward compatible.
Dec 03 20:17:28 <x0rn> btw, first 200 devices is already sold?
Dec 03 20:17:51 <jake42> grr: new soc is pretty similar
Dec 03 20:18:03 <Defiant> There is no single neo900 sold yet.
Dec 03 20:18:10 <grr> that's great.
Dec 03 20:18:16 <jake42> x0rn: 200 preordered = 200 donations over 100€
Dec 03 20:18:35 <jake42> grr: just a little faster
Dec 03 20:18:57 <grr> did any of you guys ordered the jolla thingy?
Dec 03 20:19:18 <x0rn> jake42: Defiant: thanks for help!
Dec 03 20:19:25 <jake42> x0rn: yw :)
Dec 03 20:20:03 <Defiant> jolla is missing a keyboard..
Dec 03 20:20:54 <grr> yes. i wonder why. lot of people were requesting a keyboard.
Dec 03 20:23:33 <jake42> I would guess designing a keyboard isn't the easiest part
Dec 03 20:23:41 <jake42> so they would just drop it
Dec 03 20:25:06 <grr> I thought there are still some hansets with HW keyboard built in. 
Dec 03 20:25:35 <mashina> all shit
Dec 03 20:25:48 <grr> N900 has suprisingly good keyboard for it's size. Much better than n810 had.
Dec 03 20:26:01 <mashina> i don't mind the 3row kb really
Dec 03 20:26:13 <jake42> grr: I think n810 kb is better than n900 :)
Dec 03 20:26:21 <mashina> especially because the screen doesn't so out so much that it creates wear/flimsiness
Dec 03 20:28:13 <grr> Not for me. I was slightly bigger so it is suppose to be better, but i am making more typing mistakes on n810 and almost none on n900. Could be quality of the switches, I don't know. 
Dec 03 20:29:51 <jake42> grr: not typing toi much anymore on my n810, though
Dec 03 20:31:56 <grr> I sometimes use it as external bluetooth keyboard/mouse for the media centre and sometimes as an IP radio.  
Dec 03 20:33:05 <grr> It would be cool to built N810 into the vintage 80-ties style boombox for the ip radio and podcasts. 
Dec 03 20:34:46 <ShadowJK> N810 upper row were a bit too close to screen
Dec 03 20:34:52 <ShadowJK> and keys were flatter
Dec 03 20:58:21 * sixwheeledbeast wonders how easy it would be to shoehorn inductive charging circuitry into a Neo900
Dec 03 20:59:02 <sixwheeledbeast> I guess there's not much room in there as it is :(
Dec 03 20:59:10 <Defiant> sixwheeledbeast: someone did that to the n900
Dec 03 21:00:06 <sixwheeledbeast> Defiant: yep, http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=56950 
Dec 03 21:00:32 <Woody14619> Samsung is doing it in the battery pack itself.  Not in phone at all.  Buy a new battery, drop it in, and you can inductive charge, even on a model that didn't support it natively.
Dec 03 21:00:52 <sixwheeledbeast> mmm
Dec 03 21:01:21 <sixwheeledbeast> must have a lower capacity battery 
Dec 03 21:01:37 <Woody14619> slightly smaller battery, (coil wraps around the whole cell normally, taking a sliver of room).  But nothing significant.
Dec 03 21:01:58 <sixwheeledbeast> interesting..
Dec 03 21:02:39 <Woody14619> The chip needed to handle it is small enough to fit in the header with the charge protection circuitry there.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Dec 04 02:59:58 2013