**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jan 01 02:59:58 2014 Jan 01 08:25:13 hi Jan 01 08:27:41 http://pastebin.com/hR7kRbXP getting error Jan 01 08:54:04 Loke: the preremove script fails since the jonh file etc isn't in /usr/bin but optification moved it to /opt/*/* and created a symlink Jan 01 09:14:37 ShadowJK: quite possible their OEM isn't offering anything different to this. But they _again_ created a communication MCA by "countries that Jolla can operate will get defined later" (OWTTE) and then "works on 6 continents"(OWTTE) and now the already anticipated fsckup re US UMTS Jan 01 09:15:53 honestly, Murphy cup in Platinum. It's incredible how they spot every single opportunity to screw up something Jan 01 09:16:40 particularly when that opportunity is faintly related to their communications policy Jan 01 09:23:07 poor devil tehdely will probably be locked in to his 900/2100 version, even when Qualcom/OEM eventually will flash a US version to the same snapdragon chipset, this version can't get flashed to devices already sold to customers, since Qualcom prefers to not allow distribution of that modem firmware Jan 01 09:23:55 (and of course the device would need new calibration when switchng it to other firmware/bands) Jan 01 09:25:16 it's pretty funny to see how the Jolla design in a strange way resembles OM Neo1973 Jan 01 09:26:01 only that Openmoko always provided debug board to flash new bootloader via JTAG, and properly documented how to do that Jan 01 09:28:17 well, actually meanwhile the basic system architecture regarding booting almost resembles Freerunner, with the auxiliary NOR-boot to recover from catastrophic damage of main bootloader by powering up while holding AUX button Jan 01 09:32:48 hi doc Jan 01 09:40:25 got it but how can I remove it Jan 01 09:49:38 its killing me dude please help me Jan 01 10:25:07 yay, (s)he's not very persistent, eh? Jan 01 10:29:10 anyway, I also had a hard time to tell what's the best method to fix broken uninstall. Might install again, them de-optify the files (i.e. move back the files from /opt/ to the original location, thus nuking the symlinks), then maybe edit the .prerm in /var/*/dpk/*/ somewhere to fix any messup in there. Then uninstall again. But I'm pretty sure there's a hardcore method - maybe a parameter --force or sth - to make apt/dpkg " Jan 01 10:29:11 succeed" with uninstalling john Jan 01 10:29:35 ooh, and somebody might open a ticket against john: "doesn't uninstall" Jan 01 10:29:40 ~pkg Jan 01 10:29:40 i guess pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/ Jan 01 13:31:24 people, where can i find a material to learn how to use appmefo ? i installed it and created a folder and added all games into it but the folder is not visible on my menu and all games that i added are still lying outside on the main menu Jan 01 13:31:28 dont know what i am missing Jan 01 14:08:56 solofight: that sounds pretty starnge Jan 01 14:09:08 solofight: have you saved your setup in apmefo? Jan 01 14:09:46 DocScrutinizer05: the mistake is mine - i saved but did not press the activate button Jan 01 14:09:53 tried it and it worked Jan 01 14:10:03 solofight: open apmefo settings, create a folder, name and icon and all, store and quit Jan 01 14:10:35 one hard factor is that it did not create its own folders and put icons accordingly like cateroise does Jan 01 14:10:48 we need to manually create all folders and its icons and then add apps Jan 01 14:10:56 is that correct ? DocScrutinizer05 ? Jan 01 14:13:47 yes Jan 01 14:13:59 that's the feature of apmefo Jan 01 14:15:03 I discarded catorize after a week since I never could get used to the silly sorting that it automatically creates Jan 01 14:15:34 and back in that time at least, catorize didn't allow user to create own folders and sort apps to her liking Jan 01 14:16:39 catorize base its' sorting on HAM I think Jan 01 14:16:52 DocScrutinizer05: yes "It did not allow me to customize" and thats the reason i ditch it Jan 01 14:16:53 solofight: just NEVER try to drag an icon on hildon applauncher dirextly Jan 01 14:17:04 FIQ: correct Jan 01 14:18:25 if you do nonetheless, you'll instantly lose all apmefo created submenus, and you have to start apmefo (possibly via cmdline) and hit activate again Jan 01 14:19:33 I wonder if eventually somebody could intergarte apmefo and Hildon Applauncher Jan 01 14:20:02 I.E. make apmefo a part of hildon-home or hildon-desktop or whatever Jan 01 14:20:07 for CSSU Jan 01 14:20:34 hildon applauncher? what's that? Jan 01 14:20:42 this would fix the "must not drag icons" issue Jan 01 14:21:03 FIQ: the way you start your apps on hildon? Jan 01 14:21:15 oh ok Jan 01 14:22:23 instead of "must not drag icons" you could then allow to drag icons to submenus even Jan 01 14:22:49 instead of doing that in generic apmefo interface Jan 01 14:23:52 DocScrutinizer05: you mean do not drag an icon from the hildon app manager to a folder created using apmefo ? (like dragging chess icon from games folder) correct ? Jan 01 14:24:26 I mean "do not drag any icon, EVER, ANYWHERE" Jan 01 14:24:34 in applauncher Jan 01 14:25:40 you quite obviously can't drag an icon out of a subfolder since there's nothing to drag it to Jan 01 14:26:10 so if i want to rearrange an icon within the hildon manager, how do i do i t? Jan 01 14:26:20 and you can't drag an icon into a submenu folder since hildon desktop/applauncher doesn't support that Jan 01 14:26:26 you don't @ solofight Jan 01 14:26:32 exactly Jan 01 14:26:38 you sue apmefo to do that Jan 01 14:26:45 ohh Jan 01 14:27:10 use* Jan 01 14:27:16 guess thats the tradeoff Jan 01 14:27:20 DocScrutinizer05: btw, can I still *access* the interface (and then leave it) without hurting apmefo? Jan 01 14:27:35 hmm? Jan 01 14:27:36 because when device starts up, there's slight lag Jan 01 14:27:43 which interface? what access? Jan 01 14:27:50 and I occasionally invoke that move thing accidentally Jan 01 14:28:06 the hold="give new place" thing Jan 01 14:28:16 DocScrutinizer05: can i drag the icon in the desktop ? to arrange my widgets and stuff ? Jan 01 14:29:04 FIQ: I somehow disabled that on my device Jan 01 14:29:22 you can do that? Jan 01 14:29:25 TIL Jan 01 14:29:27 ...how Jan 01 14:32:17 I *guess* in tweakr Jan 01 14:32:28 or in CSSU settings Jan 01 14:32:28 Where can I get a list of devices that run on Maemo or something based on it? Jan 01 14:32:49 N900, N810, N800 Jan 01 14:32:56 here you are Jan 01 14:33:02 :-) Jan 01 14:33:19 well, some say N950, N9 Jan 01 14:33:20 :P Jan 01 14:33:35 some disagree Jan 01 14:33:42 Why do some disagree on that? Jan 01 14:33:56 in my book HARM!=maemo Jan 01 14:34:15 HARM? Jan 01 14:34:18 Does it harm me? Jan 01 14:34:39 possibly Jan 01 14:34:48 it for sure harms *me* Jan 01 14:35:10 N770 too afaik Jan 01 14:35:30 i left that out since I guess pretty few of them exist and still work Jan 01 14:35:52 pretty sure the same case applies for N8x0 :p Jan 01 14:36:25 > N810, N800 Jan 01 14:36:28 Why do they always add 10 to it when there's an update? Jan 01 14:36:30 Same with Blackberry Torch 9800 / 9810 Jan 01 14:36:31 nah, I have two N810 here, one powered up and fine Jan 01 14:36:54 and the other? Jan 01 14:37:14 the other is pretty pristine Jan 01 14:37:59 DocScrutinizer05 what's so harmful about MeeGo? Jan 01 14:38:12 ~aegis Jan 01 14:38:13 http://www.developer.nokia.com/Community/Wiki/Harmattan:Developer_Library/Developing_for_Harmattan/Harmattan_security/Security_guide , or "The purpose of this framework is: ... to make sure that the platform meets the requirements set by third party software that requires a safe execution environment.", or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_Computing#Criticism, or http://en.qi-hardware.com/w/images/1/10/ME_382_LockedUpTechnology2.gif Jan 01 14:38:21 to start with Jan 01 14:38:57 and the "can't downgrade firmware" policy resulting from it Jan 01 14:39:07 ~malf Jan 01 14:39:07 extra, extra, read all about it, malf is http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg Jan 01 14:39:37 it offers no real security and is mostly a roadblock to be able to do what you want Jan 01 14:40:03 yes Jan 01 14:40:25 and I hate devices with built-in self-destruct function Jan 01 14:41:08 Hmpf Jan 01 14:41:08 particularly when the trigger button is integrated into a random number of ordinary files that you mustn't touch Jan 01 14:41:29 As horrible as I find that, I can't live with a resistive touch screen Jan 01 14:41:29 ~may-i-edit Jan 01 14:41:30 mayIedit () { grep "`basename $1`" /var/lib/aegis/refhashlist && echo "probably not" && return; echo "edit if you feel venturous"; } Jan 01 14:42:03 Should I expect the N9's touch screen to be as responsive as, say, that of a modern Samsung Galaxy? Jan 01 14:42:34 Or a slightly less modern one for that matter, like the Galaxy S I / II Jan 01 14:42:37 err, it's a capacitive touchscreen. I guess they all are pretty much the same Jan 01 14:42:50 Nah Jan 01 14:42:59 I ordered a chinkphone once and its screen was horrid Jan 01 14:43:04 they are, since I hate them all ;-P Jan 01 14:43:10 Yeah, same Jan 01 14:43:20 But there aren't really many options when it comes to keyboards Jan 01 14:43:38 huh? Jan 01 14:43:59 Too few smartphones have keyboards so I'll succumb Jan 01 14:44:20 im the other way around, ill sooner stop using a phone than get a keyboardless phone. Jan 01 14:44:36 while technically true, it's not relevant to touch screen technology Jan 01 14:44:48 @ antithesis_ Jan 01 14:44:54 :nod: Jan 01 14:45:05 N810W was left from that list Jan 01 14:45:09 just was about to ask how touchscreen is related to kbd Jan 01 14:45:14 what's N810W Jan 01 14:45:16 ? Jan 01 14:45:21 I wonder how many of those were made, couldn't have been many Jan 01 14:45:23 that's a weird device Jan 01 14:45:25 and rare Jan 01 14:45:46 Though more than the 3D display N810 for sure :) Jan 01 14:45:48 N810 with errr, how's it called? Jan 01 14:45:51 (I was never around in N770-N810 days allthough I did consider a N810 back in the day) Jan 01 14:45:57 WAN? Jan 01 14:46:02 wimax? Jan 01 14:46:06 wimax! Jan 01 14:46:08 jaska I'm kinda the same, actually. I sold my Chinkphone because it was too shitty, but just now I tried out some note-taking on my mom's Sony device and it was actually quite pleasant, better than I'd expected Jan 01 14:46:12 huh? Jan 01 14:46:16 what is this :D Jan 01 14:46:23 @ DocScrutinizer05 ShadowJK Jan 01 14:46:24 i had to think hard to remember what was the name of that hypedup wlan/wwan tech :( Jan 01 14:46:28 So maybe it was just the touch screen on that one chinkphone that was so shit, not 'all touchscreens' Jan 01 14:46:31 glorified WiFi Jan 01 14:46:42 That being said, I never checked if it was because of the screen protected I'd placed over it or not Jan 01 14:46:44 and to consider i was involved in some of that shit ages ago. Jan 01 14:46:54 (wlan/wwan, not n810) Jan 01 14:46:59 I don't know, do screen protectors make the screens less responsive? Jan 01 14:47:09 I'd actually like if wifi used wimax type media access control Jan 01 14:47:25 screen protector on a capacitive touch? LOL! Jan 01 14:47:27 wifi more or less copies ethernet csma/cd Jan 01 14:48:05 cd? Jan 01 14:48:15 hardly ;-) Jan 01 14:48:27 well, RX side maybe Jan 01 14:48:34 not even that Jan 01 14:48:37 DocScrutinizer05 what's so funny about it? >_< Jan 01 14:48:39 So weak stations can hog the channel for ages.. wimax gives each station a time slot, when time is up next station gets the channel regardless if first got through any data or not Jan 01 14:49:30 antithesis_: c-ts and protectors don't go together well Jan 01 14:49:46 physics Jan 01 14:49:48 a couple of friends with jollas use them w/o issues afaik Jan 01 14:49:57 but I never tried myself Jan 01 14:50:11 since I don't own a device with capacitive ts Jan 01 14:50:11 Hm Jan 01 14:50:23 And all capacitative touch screens are on-par? Jan 01 14:50:29 with each other Jan 01 14:50:32 some protectors may have less negative impact than others, but all of them do no good to capacitive touch Jan 01 14:50:42 "Responsive touchscreen" is pretty complex topic really, because there's two sides to it. The delay between finger touching, and the electronics detecting it and passing it on to CPU, and the time it takes for CPU and OS to process it, and the time it takes to display something on screen Jan 01 14:51:03 antithesis_: for sure not, there are better and inferior controller chips Jan 01 14:51:26 I'm not talking about how fast it is, ShadowJK , but how accurate Jan 01 14:51:29 also what ShadowJK said Jan 01 14:51:32 My firefox os phone just about manages to detect which quadrant of the screen is touch ;p Jan 01 14:51:49 lol Jan 01 14:52:02 It also does something I havent seen since mid 90s Nokia: Dust collecting between the layers of the screen Jan 01 14:52:12 OMG! Jan 01 14:52:29 So, to rephrase the question: are all capacitative touch screens as accurate? Jan 01 14:52:37 no Jan 01 14:52:47 that largely depends on particular build Jan 01 14:52:51 There are tests Jan 01 14:53:16 where people have used capacitive stylus and rulers to draw grid pattern on screen in some paint program Jan 01 14:53:39 there are remarkably more designs on c-ts than you can read about on wikipedia Jan 01 14:53:39 * FIQ can't use capacitive screens with his nails, therefore they are annoying Jan 01 14:53:47 the worst show a wavy grid, many have distortion at the edges Jan 01 14:54:18 while for resistive ts wikipedia seems to almost have a comprehensive list of known technologies and variants Jan 01 14:55:32 btw i recently found out about SG Note-2: it has c-ts plus wacom style inductive hybrid Jan 01 14:56:22 so yes, you can use stylus on note-2, but not arbitrary sylus but only special inductive type Jan 01 14:56:34 antithesis_; http://mashable.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/diytouchscreenanalysis3.jpg Jan 01 14:57:07 http://mashable.com/2010/01/11/touchscreen-comparison/ Jan 01 14:59:04 ^^^ ROTFL!! Jan 01 14:59:19 now that's pretty bad Jan 01 15:00:31 worst touchscreen ive ever used: sph-m550 Jan 01 15:00:55 (yes its a cdma phone, didnt use the cdma parts in .fi) Jan 01 15:01:40 DocScrutinizer05; you disassembled your jolla? Jan 01 15:01:44 nope Jan 01 15:01:50 shall I? Jan 01 15:02:03 or was the antennae comments from exterior inspection? Jan 01 15:02:09 yep Jan 01 15:02:12 ah Jan 01 15:02:25 looks nasty to disassemble Jan 01 15:02:39 but... that#s probably always the case Jan 01 15:02:44 I suspect the design has some nasty flex issues.. Jan 01 15:02:49 yep Jan 01 15:03:23 what makes me wonder: it has no visible testpads *anywhere* Jan 01 15:03:31 judging by the number of "sim card is lost when phone is in pocket", and battery contact glitches Jan 01 15:04:30 pulling off TOH is a major PITA anyway Jan 01 15:04:54 Mine is loose in one corner, so it's easy to start there Jan 01 15:05:18 * DocScrutinizer05 can't figure how any PCB mounted to that wobbly TOH plastic shall survive that procedure Jan 01 15:05:51 I was very amused yesterday when jolla cellmo stopped working :) N900 feature-parity with autosuicide modem :D Jan 01 15:06:38 Anyone making TOH with any features would have to do a new design, and make phone thicker.. Jan 01 15:06:38 really? Jan 01 15:06:58 oh joy Jan 01 15:07:17 apparently my ext3 is corrupted again Jan 01 15:07:21 just tested the RFID tag in TOH: N9 says "this tag has no content" - as usual Jan 01 15:07:25 There's a hundred or so people with modem issues, judging by the number of votes "disappearing SIM" has Jan 01 15:07:34 and I'm positive that I did not shutdown the device incorrectly Jan 01 15:07:46 perhaps my eMMC is simply starting to fail Jan 01 15:07:55 FIQ: that's annoying Jan 01 15:08:26 ShadowJK: sounds like I should get rid of the thing ASAP Jan 01 15:08:36 this time it seems only xchat scrollback was affected Jan 01 15:08:46 hmm Jan 01 15:08:47 There seems to be a sensor/switch in the sim bay, which touches the side of sim card.. seems tolerances in sim cards are much bigger than what the switch is designed for Jan 01 15:08:52 and also frame flex Jan 01 15:09:03 DocScrutinizer05: can I somehow make a full FS check to which files are having issues? Jan 01 15:09:06 without repairing that is Jan 01 15:09:34 FIQ: err, fsck has a check-only option Jan 01 15:09:38 FIQ; cd /home ; ls -lhRa > /dev/null Jan 01 15:09:44 so I know if I can just make a backupmenu backup (and having it fail to save files with issues) and restore from that right away Jan 01 15:10:03 ShadowJK: yeah something like that, ty Jan 01 15:10:34 wont detect files with garbage in them, but i dont know what would Jan 01 15:11:08 umm, ls? Jan 01 15:11:23 will ls detect broken inode chains? Jan 01 15:11:38 it only managed to find these scrollback files I mentioned Jan 01 15:11:39 ls is only reading dir inodes, no? Jan 01 15:11:52 "stale NFS file handle" Jan 01 15:11:58 ouch Jan 01 15:12:02 -lh makes it access inodes Jan 01 15:12:06 this is interesting Jan 01 15:12:12 because Jan 01 15:12:13 instead of jsut listing directory contents Jan 01 15:12:18 I've had this issue 4 times Jan 01 15:12:24 standard filesystem response when an inode is of fubar "type" Jan 01 15:12:26 *all* of them has been related to xchat Jan 01 15:12:47 does xchat do something weird with files on maemo? Jan 01 15:13:03 not really, just writing like mad Jan 01 15:13:13 hm Jan 01 15:13:24 perhaps I should disable scrollback and logging Jan 01 15:13:25 I seriously discourage doing IRC logs on embedded Jan 01 15:13:31 I noticed I started experiencing "ext3 corrupt after unexpected shutdown" much more frequently after I enabled browsed disk cacehe... And if the fs is damaged once, it often gets worse from use even without more unexpected crash/reboot Jan 01 15:13:40 DocScrutinizer05: well this time it was scrollback Jan 01 15:13:52 and afaik that is on by default Jan 01 15:13:58 (logging isn't though) Jan 01 15:14:18 all right Jan 01 15:14:27 so let's turn that xchat setting off Jan 01 15:14:40 oh... Jan 01 15:14:41 and backup/restore via backupmenu Jan 01 15:14:45 do you have cssu? Jan 01 15:14:50 yes ShadowJK Jan 01 15:14:52 I guess xchat does several dozen writes per second, for logs Jan 01 15:15:12 I have cssu thumb, and noticed /home mount options are different from stock Jan 01 15:15:47 I'm not sure if the corruption issues arised from cssu Jan 01 15:15:49 So, if I remember (which I havent since last boot), I do mount /dev/mmcblk0p2 /home -o remount,noatime,nodiratime,commit=1 Jan 01 15:15:53 but I never had issues w/o cssu Jan 01 15:15:56 iirc that's how it was in stock Jan 01 15:16:48 noatime,nodiratime for sure Jan 01 15:17:02 commit=1 I'm not sure Jan 01 15:17:30 anyway I start to feel unhappy with CSSU Jan 01 15:17:31 k logging turned off and verified off Jan 01 15:17:41 I always assumed it came from Nokia QA battery-removal tests Jan 01 15:18:38 anybody familiar with fail2ban? Jan 01 15:18:46 I'll shut down xchat nicely, re-do ls "scan" to verify that it didn't break anything else (especially not system important files) as of we speaking, and let backupmenu do its' thing Jan 01 15:18:54 * Ashley` ...kinda Jan 01 15:19:00 kthxbai Jan 01 15:19:21 FIQ: oh yes! you must quit xchat proper, otherwise settings are not saved Jan 01 15:19:48 Ashley`: any hints what to check/customize after installation? Jan 01 15:20:04 vim /etc/fail2ban/jail.conf Jan 01 15:20:05 :v Jan 01 15:20:24 add your home IP address to "Exclude" section Jan 01 15:20:48 that's exactly the sort of hint I hoped for Jan 01 15:20:57 write some customized jails for your nginx v: Jan 01 15:21:12 (oh, not using nginx? install nginx then xD) Jan 01 15:23:26 what about that weird auto-mailing Jan 01 15:23:42 is that actually a good idea to keep/use? Jan 01 15:23:50 mailto-whois etc Jan 01 15:24:20 seems like it's more a way to make my own box look rogue Jan 01 15:24:23 * Ashley` uses another program for sending logwatches Jan 01 15:24:39 i don't remember its name Jan 01 15:24:49 it sends me summary of logs every day Jan 01 15:24:52 mailto-whois doesn't send logs but complaints Jan 01 15:25:15 sounds pretty weird. and scary Jan 01 15:25:52 # Sends a complaint e-mail to addresses listed in the whois record for an Jan 01 15:25:53 # offending IP address. Jan 01 15:25:58 oh Jan 01 15:26:00 hm Jan 01 15:26:11 I don't have it turned on. Jan 01 15:26:45 at least I guess that's what "sendmail-whois[name=sasl, dest=you@example.com]" does Jan 01 15:27:41 oh, judging by the mailaddr template, it isn't Jan 01 15:28:14 so wtf means sendmail-whois? Jan 01 15:29:17 maybe it sends whois output of banned IPs to you Jan 01 15:29:19 /etc/fail2ban/jail.conf is full of that stuff Jan 01 15:29:29 aah, maybe Jan 01 15:31:05 I guess I don't want an email for each scanner hammering my box Jan 01 15:31:19 yeah Jan 01 15:31:23 already added apps are still showing in the list of apps to be added for a new folder in apmefo Jan 01 15:31:24 sometimes 3 or 5 per day Jan 01 15:31:24 :( Jan 01 15:31:47 Such email reports used to be marked "Idiot with firewall" Jan 01 15:31:52 solofight: they don't vanish there Jan 01 15:31:53 at ISPs Jan 01 15:32:05 daily log summary (including fal2ban.log) is better v: Jan 01 15:32:11 otherwise you couldn't add them to multiple submenus Jan 01 15:33:29 ShadowJK: yep, that's however my least worry Jan 01 15:33:56 ShadowJK: my box on blacklists would be worse Jan 01 15:34:40 yes Jan 01 15:35:13 the huger the ISP the higher the probability of my box sending multiple complaints and the higher the impact/damage from getting onto the blacklist of that ISP/provider Jan 01 15:38:10 DocScrutinizer05: what i mean is if an icon is already selected to be a part of a folder it should not be in the list of appls which i can add to for another folder ... right ? Jan 01 15:38:39 wrong Jan 01 15:38:54 solofight: they don't vanish there otherwise you couldn't add them to multiple submenus Jan 01 15:40:17 I admit that's a bit of a hassle to sort out which app is already "used"/covered Jan 01 15:40:32 exactly Jan 01 15:41:08 I used to do that by saving one folder's config, then switching between apmefo settings and that folder in appstarter Jan 01 15:41:59 there's also a trick of directly editing the apmefo local config files, I guess Jan 01 15:43:06 or you print out a list of all existing apps - to paper copy - and checkmark each single one you handled Jan 01 15:43:32 on the bright side: that problem is a clear one-time issue Jan 01 15:44:13 later installed apps are relatively easy to handle Jan 01 15:44:29 since you deal with only one app at a time Jan 01 15:44:46 so this is a 60 min of hassle that really pay back Jan 01 15:45:09 doonce, profit forever Jan 01 15:45:46 when you get lazy, you end with some few apps in root menu, see my screenshot ;-) Jan 01 15:46:13 I eventually should move bq27-monitor to system, and Opera to utils Jan 01 15:46:26 and maybe opera also to core apps? Jan 01 15:47:59 Ashley`: is "exclude" actually named "ignoreip"? Jan 01 15:48:32 oh Jan 01 15:48:34 yeah Jan 01 15:48:41 DocScrutinizer05: apmefo local config files ! ? how to edit them ? Jan 01 15:48:49 I edited it a long time ago... Jan 01 15:48:50 solofight: no idea Jan 01 15:49:09 Ashley`: the problem is: I have dynamic local IP Jan 01 15:49:12 oh Jan 01 15:49:22 so, you've no problem with bans Jan 01 15:49:28 apmefo settings and that folder in appstarter ? here do you mean the folder which i created and the root menu ? Jan 01 15:49:33 ban -> reconnect (another ip) -> you're not banned :D Jan 01 15:49:39 not THAT dynamic Jan 01 15:49:45 hm... Jan 01 15:49:59 like "changes every other week" Jan 01 15:50:01 Maybe you can make some script that autoupdates config :v Jan 01 15:50:33 Or hope you'll not get banned Jan 01 15:50:34 I guess I can't use IP ranges or URLs there? Jan 01 15:50:44 You can use IP ranges Jan 01 15:50:54 that's fine for me then Jan 01 15:51:01 I don't know about URLs... you're thinking about domains? Jan 01 15:51:17 a /16 is better than nothing already Jan 01 15:51:27 yep Jan 01 15:51:32 dyndns Jan 01 15:52:36 prolly can even use a /24 Jan 01 15:52:45 or at least a /20 Jan 01 15:53:02 worked just fine Jan 01 15:53:06 nice Jan 01 15:56:57 I lost 18 files Jan 01 15:57:07 all related to scrollback Jan 01 15:57:16 otherwise backup went seamless Jan 01 15:57:33 apart from a million timestamp errors as I didn't bother to set system time Jan 01 15:58:35 DocScrutinizer05, # "ignoreip" can be an IP address, a CIDR mask or a DNS host. Jan 01 15:58:51 DocScrutinizer05, so, I think you can use dyndns or somthing like that Jan 01 16:00:06 \o/ Jan 01 16:04:06 Ashley`: where the heck are the manpages? Jan 01 16:04:16 dunno :v Jan 01 16:04:22 Ashley`: what is a ? Jan 01 16:04:51 ~$ ssh ashley.re man -k fail2ban Jan 01 16:04:51 fail2ban-client (1) - configure and control the server Jan 01 16:04:51 fail2ban-regex (1) - test Fail2ban "failregex" option Jan 01 16:04:51 fail2ban-server (1) - start the server Jan 01 16:04:54 here Jan 01 16:04:57 fail2ban-client is pretty complex Jan 01 16:05:32 jail is... uh... my english skills suck... :f Jan 01 16:05:42 funny enough man -k fail2ban doesn't yield anything for me, seems there's missing some re-indexing Jan 01 16:06:46 is JAIL each of the [ssh-iptables] etc sections? Jan 01 16:07:13 so, is ssh-iptables a ? Jan 01 16:09:07 or is the complete jail.conf one ? Jan 01 16:09:46 see etc/fail2ban/jails.d or something like that Jan 01 16:09:52 jails are defined there Jan 01 16:10:08 they're... rules for banning Jan 01 16:10:41 fail2ban works by parsing logs and comparing lines to regexps and counting occurences AFAIK Jan 01 16:11:20 I have no etc/fail2ban/jails.d or similar, just filters.d and action.d Jan 01 16:11:38 `oh Jan 01 16:11:39 sorry Jan 01 16:11:41 filters.d Jan 01 16:11:44 yes, that's what I thought Jan 01 16:12:05 aaah, ok, filters.d jas the JAILs then Jan 01 16:17:45 this package could use some docs/HowTo Jan 01 16:19:32 set addignoreip Jan 01 16:19:33 adds to the ignore list of Jan 01 16:19:48 from man fail2ban-client Jan 01 16:26:52 the dest= on every section is pretty weird. you'd exopect that to be a macro or global setting or default Jan 01 16:32:39 http://privatepaste.com/abc7fd3239 \o/ Jan 01 16:35:32 hi i wondered what were you guys thoughts on jolla? Jan 01 16:40:55 How do I disable all e-mail for a particular account during a particular time period? I would like to control this either via some UI or via a script. Jan 01 16:41:21 (N900) Jan 01 17:00:48 jdoles: diable all email? Jan 01 17:02:30 Presumably he'd like to disable auto-update for a single account, for a specific time period Jan 01 17:07:09 that seems hard to accomplish Jan 01 17:13:59 DocScrutinizer05: I just want an API to disable a particular account between two dates (or in general a set of dates). Jan 01 17:14:55 The previous CSSU upgrade was noticably better than anything before; the RAM improvements are noticable. Jan 01 17:15:20 So, to whoever is responsible for that: good job. Jan 01 18:13:57 o.O Jan 01 18:23:52 jdoles: (mail) I think that's not supported Jan 01 18:24:41 DocScrutinizer05: what's there to o.O about? Jan 01 18:25:13 I don't know of any RAM savings in latest CSSU Jan 01 18:25:30 DocScrutinizer05: not the latest. Jan 01 18:25:33 DocScrutinizer05: the one before that. Jan 01 18:25:36 except of course you're on cssu-thumb Jan 01 18:25:40 DocScrutinizer05: yeah, that one. Jan 01 18:25:46 aaah Jan 01 18:26:13 They should have done this when the phone was released. Jan 01 18:26:31 htey didn't know how to do it Jan 01 18:26:44 about 2-3MB less code in latest -thumb Jan 01 18:26:57 or even more Jan 01 18:27:09 it's been freemangordon who was the awesome genius to find out how to implement the thumb-bugfix Jan 01 18:27:18 :) Jan 01 18:27:29 How is it possible that a bunch of open-source hobbyists are better than 100,000 employees? Jan 01 18:27:36 despite those saying it is impossible :P Jan 01 18:27:40 Or just freemangordon by himself, that's it. Jan 01 18:27:52 er that is. Jan 01 18:28:03 jdoles: I can afford it Jan 01 18:28:07 well, basically nobody did care Jan 01 18:28:24 noone will want his money back from me ;)( Jan 01 18:28:30 freemangordon: are you a millionaire with too much time on your hands? Jan 01 18:28:35 no Jan 01 18:28:36 The experts were "It's fixed in newest chip version" or smth Jan 01 18:28:52 yes Jan 01 18:29:08 this is a bug only on some of our CPUs Jan 01 18:29:25 jdoles: If I were, I'd have funded the neo900 project :)( Jan 01 18:29:41 WTF is with that bracket? Jan 01 18:29:43 and nobody at Nokia or anywhere else wanted to invest the time to find a better bugfix than "don't use thumb" Jan 01 18:30:04 It sounds like a billion dollar mistake. Jan 01 18:30:13 TI did it Jan 01 18:30:37 Someone didn't write the contracts correctly then. Jan 01 18:30:48 jdoles: afaik Nokia planed to use thumb, but it turned out that chips are buggy Jan 01 18:30:52 who knows Jan 01 18:31:02 *planned Jan 01 18:31:11 Also SR Jan 01 18:31:16 :nod: Jan 01 18:31:17 DocScrutinizer05: it was just decided not to take the risk, all the thumb issues and available workarounds were known and taken into account when making the decision :) Jan 01 18:31:20 the best contract can't fix a chip Jan 01 18:31:39 DocScrutinizer05: no, but it can fix billions of dollars. Jan 01 18:31:45 ssvb: sounds sensible Jan 01 18:31:53 Then again, probably TI doesn't want to take on such contracts. Jan 01 18:32:16 ssvb: hmm, I beg to disagree (all were known), binutils were fixed somewhere in late 2010 or 2011 Jan 01 18:32:29 It would have been interesting if some spy agency would turn out to have sabotaged the chips. Jan 01 18:32:47 freemangordon: hmm, are you really sure? Jan 01 18:32:56 lemme check it again, but iirc Jan 01 18:32:59 (to eliminate another mobile player from the market) Jan 01 18:33:20 (and in particular a non-American company) Jan 01 18:33:48 TI did exit the market Jan 01 18:33:49 ssvb: hmm, I am mistaken Jan 01 18:33:56 it is 2009 Jan 01 18:34:15 ssvb: but why then? Jan 01 18:34:20 makes no sense Jan 01 18:34:32 With all the Privacy Issues Today, I wonder why are you still using Maemo? I mean, with the non-free bits it more or less sure that meamo does spy on you like any other mobile os. So.... how will you react to this? Jan 01 18:34:33 freemangordon: in any case, I remember that the errata list from arm included the recommendations to patch the linker, and the preliminary patches were available at the time Jan 01 18:36:20 somedude238: broadband modem in n900 does not have access o the APE memory Jan 01 18:36:25 *to Jan 01 18:36:28 Funny that, with all the privacy issues today, I wonder why more people aren't using maemo Jan 01 18:36:33 :nod: Jan 01 18:36:58 freemangordon: the thumb issues were discovered one after another, it was not like a nice and *complete* list of thimb issues was available right from the start Jan 01 18:37:27 ssvb: I see Jan 01 18:37:57 there was a fear there will be some undiscovered issue? Jan 01 18:38:36 freemangordon: yes Jan 01 18:39:15 * ShadowJK vaguely recalls mru discovering new hw bugs every week Jan 01 18:39:25 ssvb: yep, makes sense. though if it was me to decide, I'd have taken the risk. Jan 01 18:40:16 as "the risk" is some application crashing once a month, which happens anyway, with or without thumb :) Jan 01 18:40:46 freemangordon: seeing only modem is narrow for a perspective. Let me give you an example. If I put in my simcard, suddendly I recive various "configuration" sms, then meamo doesn something I don't know what and I'm suddendly subscriber to some "mynokia" service I have to opt out after.... sound like an privacy issue to me. Jan 01 18:41:26 somedude238: that "issue" is well known for, how much, 3 years? Jan 01 18:42:24 freemangordon: (take the risk) that's the difference Jan 01 18:42:39 and is actually the only known privacy issue. And believe me, there are people who known what is inside maemo, I doubt a real privacy issue would have passed unnoticed so far Jan 01 18:43:23 DocScrutinizer05: I did something similar in my RL job Jan 01 18:43:41 and notmynokia issue is even implemented into maemo in a pretty obvious way Jan 01 18:43:46 Maemo might be an exception in that it tells you when operator has sent conifugration data Jan 01 18:44:03 ~notmynokia Jan 01 18:44:09 damn Jan 01 18:44:25 ~listvalues mynokia Jan 01 18:44:26 Factoid search of 'mynokia' by value returned no results. Jan 01 18:44:37 meh Jan 01 18:45:15 anyway mynokia issue is not related to inbound config SMS Jan 01 18:45:19 not at all Jan 01 18:45:30 freemangordon: so thinking about secret laws, secret contracts and not so secret NDAs, do you think who ever did work for nokia and knows about privacy issues is allowed to talk about it without facing serious legal issues? just saying Jan 01 18:45:32 N900 actively sends out a SMS Jan 01 18:45:50 somedude238: I don;t talk about ex-nokians Jan 01 18:46:06 somedude238: we know our shit Jan 01 18:46:19 we don't need sekrit info from inside Nokia Jan 01 18:46:26 right now on the channel there are at least 10 people who know almost everything on how the suff in maemo works Jan 01 18:46:38 stuff even Jan 01 18:46:48 Even so, question is why would maemo be any more exposed to agency meddling than other systems Jan 01 18:47:03 hah, rather less Jan 01 18:47:18 anyway, /me is back to REing fmtxd Jan 01 18:47:24 \o/ Jan 01 18:47:33 gooo freemangordon GOOOOO! Jan 01 18:47:57 DocScrutinizer05: for some strange reason I was thinking there is only ARM binary Jan 01 18:48:10 hm? Jan 01 18:48:16 oh Jan 01 18:48:20 x86? Jan 01 18:48:28 I was like WTF?!? yesterday when I discovered there is x86 binary too :) Jan 01 18:48:31 yep Jan 01 18:48:52 and it is easy to RE some 30k x86 binary Jan 01 18:49:00 :nod: Jan 01 18:49:34 with the almighty hexrays armed :D. BFG9000, you know ;) Jan 01 18:50:07 however watch out that it#s not a fake/dummy to make maemo work on platform without FM Jan 01 18:50:44 DocScrutinizer05: rephrase please, can't parse Jan 01 18:50:44 on some ends they must have sneaked in dummies Jan 01 18:51:20 (still some hangover left over :) ) Jan 01 18:51:24 maemo x86 supposed to run on a platform that has no FM chip thus no sysnodes for it. Rest of system want's to emulate this Jan 01 18:51:53 so fmtxd might be a dummy stub that doesn't do anything Jan 01 18:52:08 DocScrutinizer05: naah, it is ok, it searches for some files in /tmp if it can't find the real files :) Jan 01 18:52:12 just gives an API that returns "OK, whatever you say" Jan 01 18:52:20 no, the code looks just ok Jan 01 18:52:22 HAH! Jan 01 18:52:27 :-) Jan 01 18:53:23 '/tmp/dummy.vbus', '/tmp/dummy.charger' :D Jan 01 18:53:37 * freemangordon likes the names Jan 01 18:53:43 so they redirected the sysfs nodes to tmp/dummy.txt files? smart? Jan 01 18:53:54 LOL? Jan 01 18:53:55 :nod: Jan 01 18:54:04 my guessing is good, isn't it? Jan 01 18:54:07 yep Jan 01 18:54:42 #IFDEF ? Jan 01 18:54:51 or actually code? Jan 01 18:55:05 i.e. would the armel binary do the same? Jan 01 18:55:09 no, it tries to open the real sysfs node and falls back to "dummy" one Jan 01 18:55:46 so strings armel bin | grep tmp/dummy.charger ? Jan 01 18:56:10 :-D Jan 01 18:56:12 try it Jan 01 18:56:20 dafilenam? Jan 01 18:56:34 "/usr/sbin/fmtxd" Jan 01 18:56:38 tnx Jan 01 18:56:40 or "/sbin/fmtxd" Jan 01 18:56:43 not sure Jan 01 18:56:51 which * ;-9 Jan 01 18:57:01 no ssh open to the device Jan 01 18:57:13 and it is about 3 meters away :) Jan 01 18:57:39 IroN900:~# strings `which fmtxd`|grep tmp Jan 01 18:57:40 /tmp/dummy.vbus Jan 01 18:57:42 /tmp/dummy.charger Jan 01 18:57:51 see :) Jan 01 18:57:56 :-D Jan 01 18:58:39 that mynokia kills me Jan 01 18:58:46 ~listkeys nokia Jan 01 18:58:48 Factoid search of 'nokia' by key (6): nokia ;; nokia stuff ;; nokia-sso ;; mynokia ;; nokiatune ;; nokia770. Jan 01 18:58:57 ~mynokia Jan 01 18:58:58 well, mynokia is a digital robbery courtesy Nokia, or http://wiki.maemo.org/PR1.2_compulsory_My_Nokia_subscription, or https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10366 Jan 01 18:59:00 04Bug 10366: MyNokia SMS sent after update without any action from the user Jan 01 18:59:05 LOL Jan 01 18:59:30 DocScrutinizer05: okay... knowing stuff does imply you know how non-free bits in maemo work. logicaly it can be assumes you can replace it with free software. then whey didn't I read about the free software meamo version for download? maybe because you don't know all about it? oh, but that would be like.... you cannot gurantee meamo doesn't have a lot more privacy issues. no offence. Jan 01 18:59:48 clear Jan 01 18:59:50 clear Jan 01 19:00:03 * ecc3g hands self a / Jan 01 19:00:48 somedude238: we have other means than knowing the sourcecode to check what a system does or possibly could do Jan 01 19:01:34 I just can tell you I *KNOW* my N900 isn't "spying on me" the way you suppose Jan 01 19:01:55 since I'd notice when it did Jan 01 19:02:23 and most probably I'd meanwhile even noticed when it had the ptential to do Jan 01 19:02:59 we disassembled and analyzed ~99.8% of all binaries on that device Jan 01 19:03:23 and I'd notice immediately when my device starts acting unusual Jan 01 19:03:41 processes not expected to run Jan 01 19:03:54 causing CPU load not expected to be seen Jan 01 19:03:56 what about baseband etc.? Jan 01 19:04:05 causing battery drain that is hated a lot Jan 01 19:04:26 what could baseband do except already contacting BTS? Jan 01 19:04:45 sth it's built for and I hope it does reliably anyway Jan 01 19:05:39 spy on my internet traffic? well that can be done on BTS as well, just like anywhere else in world wide internet on any cisco router that happens to forward my data Jan 01 19:06:08 modem reporting to NSA about charging state of my battery? Jan 01 19:06:10 ;-P Jan 01 19:06:57 ok, they *can* activate the GPS on N900 and get a somewhat more precise fix than they could with mere triangulation from 3 BTS Jan 01 19:07:08 when I'm outdoor Jan 01 19:07:24 NIN101: what's "etc"? Jan 01 19:07:40 ooh, we have NOLO Jan 01 19:07:41 DocScrutinizer05: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/30C3-SIM-Karten-Angriffe-bleiben-bedrohlich-2072666.html Jan 01 19:07:56 who knows what evil daemons hide in there ;-) Jan 01 19:08:07 NIN101: ooooooold Jan 01 19:08:29 not the point. Jan 01 19:09:06 and yet to get tested if N900 BB5 maybe is a clean SAT implementation that actually rises an exception of sorts on JS programs running on SIM Jan 01 19:09:39 or if it actually simply can't and will not do SAT at all, like Nokia admitted Jan 01 19:09:54 You're all looking in the wrong place. The agency would obvioisly modulate the powergrid frequency, to create audio and video, which when we use camera, triggers an exploit in the emmc Jan 01 19:10:09 that however it pretty much completely unrelated to the phone Jan 01 19:10:33 DocScrutinizer05: Nobody is perfect. I mean I do not say I don't belive you have the ability and the means to do as you say you do. Do you have a scientific paper explaining you methods and more or less proof there no more privacy issues than mynokia subscribtion? So other people can check your results and stuff. .... Okay, that would mean a lot of work but today trust needs a bit more then just a "because we say so". Jan 01 19:10:33 heheheharrrrhaha Jan 01 19:11:22 somedude238: no, and I'm not doing that paper without payment Jan 01 19:12:05 also, do you track your CPU load and processes 24/7 :-)? Jan 01 19:12:14 yes Jan 01 19:12:39 but what about my evil kernel module? Jan 01 19:12:58 DocScrutinizer05: how much money do you want for doing such a paper? Jan 01 19:13:02 oh, the one pali kicked out of KP last week? Jan 01 19:13:12 heh Jan 01 19:13:38 DocScrutinizer05: not "my" in particular, an attackers evil kernel module, how would you detect that? Jan 01 19:13:42 somedude238: lemme see.... 2 weeks == 10 man-days * 8h * 80bucks Jan 01 19:14:13 I first instance have no evil kernel modules on my device Jan 01 19:14:23 how do you know? Jan 01 19:14:31 and my last lsmod is prolly 2 weeks ago Jan 01 19:14:45 your lsmod is not reliable if your system is infected. Jan 01 19:14:53 meh Jan 01 19:15:00 NIN101; by that metric, there is not a single device in the world that can be trusted Jan 01 19:15:11 yep. Jan 01 19:15:15 Not even SD cards :-) Jan 01 19:15:31 yeah, I saw that talk on the 30c3. Jan 01 19:16:10 NIN101: so you just proved that ... you can't watch CPU operating Jan 01 19:17:12 and my system ISN't infected Jan 01 19:17:20 Also Samsung patching their cards so they don't bug out and overwrite their own firmware. Imagine an attacker that knew the sequence and conditions that trigger that bug, could potentially replace the firmware with his own, and have the card modify the operating system stored on it :-) Jan 01 19:17:29 DocScrutinizer05: you sure that's enough? seems a bit fast to me or you are very confident you can do a paper for other people to check. Jan 01 19:19:18 " so you just proved that ... you can't watch CPU operating" Please rephrase. if you mean that you can't trust CPU load values reported by the kernel when your system is infected, then ineed, you can't. Jan 01 19:19:23 somedude238: I'm not interested in that whole discussion, it's like little Fritz going to chocolate factory asking for a quote for 30.000 kg of nougat chocolate Jan 01 19:19:52 why would I waste my time doing a proper quote? Jan 01 19:20:36 As kernel is typically only read at bootup, it'd be trivial for the compromised memory card to serve a compromised kernel at poweron, and return the original kernel later if anyone tried to read verify :D Jan 01 19:21:06 ShadowJK: 7here's /dev/mem though Jan 01 19:21:12 ShadowJK: :-). Jan 01 19:21:53 ShadowJK: and how the heck did my 27 updates work? Jan 01 19:22:01 DocScrutinizer05: I'm saying I try to get the money for you to do contracted work doing that paper. Jan 01 19:22:42 somedude238: if you're really interested in that, contact me on my commercial addr per email please Jan 01 19:22:50 OH, and let's not forget the led controller, it's a turing complete chip afterall, it might modulate he notification light with a datastream :s Jan 01 19:23:35 somedude238; would be more interesting in the context of Neo900 really Jan 01 19:24:11 ShadowJK: hehe, indeed Jan 01 19:24:12 The stock Maemo5/N900 concerns will go away automatically as the modem tends to suicide eventually anyway Jan 01 19:24:53 why do a security audit for a device that's fading away? Jan 01 19:24:57 ShadowJK: that's also the point. I read neo900 does want to make use of meamo. first the it must be deemed safe or it's not usable. Jan 01 19:25:26 o.O Jan 01 19:25:52 somedude238; I think the majority of the closed telephony stuff is entirely incompartible anyway, and would have to be thrown out Jan 01 19:26:01 DocScrutinizer05: I'll contact you in the next few days about the contracted work. Jan 01 19:26:15 do you have a faint idea what you mean by "safe"? Jan 01 19:26:35 and any idea how to accomplish that requirement? Jan 01 19:26:57 honestly, I#m curious what it is you want to see getting done Jan 01 19:28:01 on Neo900 you can have the security audit for half the price of N900 Jan 01 19:28:04 it's not doable unless you build every chip yourself, and xray them to confirm nobody tampered with them during manufacture, etc.. But then, you're doing the design work on an insecure machine in the first place, and can't trust the design software to synthesize your design Jan 01 19:29:00 ShadowJK: that#s why I ask about the level of "security" he's interested in resp talking about Jan 01 19:29:14 right Jan 01 19:29:52 I mean "all software from FOSS" doesn't say anything about security anyway, really Jan 01 19:30:01 not immanently Jan 01 19:30:35 DocScrutinizer05: my Idea of "safe" in meamo context is first and foremost there is no remote access posibility by "nokia" or other thirdparty. from there apps "leaking data to the cloud" and down to sqashing bugs that could make previous things said possible. Jan 01 19:30:42 I can't do a full 100% security audit of even just the linus kernel Jan 01 19:31:06 somedude238: that's feasibe :-) Jan 01 19:32:00 depends. If we include "remote exploits" in "no remote access posibility for third parties", then probably not. Jan 01 19:32:06 If you take as a given that the hardware which the maemo software runs on behaves as documented Jan 01 19:33:22 NIN101: since standard system doesn't expose any servies, there's hardly any exploit of such services for anybody to make use of Jan 01 19:34:12 speaking about user space servers. Jan 01 19:34:31 there also clients, and the kernel. Jan 01 19:34:35 you'd need to find an exploit in e.g. pop3 Jan 01 19:34:45 or - of course - web browser Jan 01 19:34:58 It's for sure not going to prevent you from installing and/or using random software Jan 01 19:35:07 :nod: Jan 01 19:35:27 yeah, we can stretch this as far as we want. A very detailed definition of "safe" must be provided. Jan 01 19:35:51 aiui it's up to me to provide that Jan 01 19:36:13 I'll valuate what's safe and what's not safe, and that's the definition Jan 01 19:36:21 evaluate even Jan 01 19:36:26 aiui he wants you do to an audit to confirm maemo is safe. In this case, he must. Jan 01 19:37:05 browser for example is NOT safe. Microsoft, netscape, firefox and opera didn't manage to define a safe browser Jan 01 19:37:12 so how could I? Jan 01 19:37:55 NIN101: we're not selling pink ponies. sorry Jan 01 19:38:31 whatever. Jan 01 19:38:59 but sure, I'll be happy to answer a request "prove that any arbitrary software on maemo is safe" with a "it's not" and invoice 1 man-week for that ;-P Jan 01 19:41:40 but I for sure can define what's needed to make a few different levels of security work. Like cryptfs for example. OR - for lowest level - explain why stock maemo considered free of spyware but still has week spots that open up vulnerabilities, like e.g. said browser Jan 01 19:42:15 weak spots even Jan 01 19:42:39 you could sandbox the browser Jan 01 19:42:53 DocScrutinizer05: isn't oviously not neccesary anymore. you just said the opposite. and meamo is not safe. thus it's not neccesary to pay you for contracted work to proof it's not safe. Jan 01 19:43:00 accepting the limitations in usability that comes with Jan 01 19:43:23 somedude238: aaah I knew it Jan 01 19:44:08 yeah, maemo (incl the 1600 apps in maemo-extras) definitely is NOT safe Jan 01 19:44:39 I know i#m talking to lil jimmy asking for 30 ons of chocolate Jan 01 19:44:51 tons* Jan 01 19:45:17 yay chocolate :3 Jan 01 19:45:58 DocScrutinizer05: what did you knew? first you say one thing and then the other. what do you expect? Jan 01 19:46:35 somedude238: and - just FYI - the browser for example definitle will NOT make it on fremantle running on Neo900, OOTB. You have to install it yourself, as user, and we will leave no doubt about the security risk that comes with such thing Jan 01 19:50:57 DocScrutinizer05: I don't care anymore. it's like saying "it can do nothing at all but it's safe until you actually install software....." you just destroyed any credibility and trust I was willing to invest. just stop. Jan 01 19:51:28 This applies to everything? Jan 01 19:51:53 somedude238: sorry we have no pink ponies for you Jan 01 19:51:58 and no chocolate Jan 01 19:53:06 and no OS that refuses to install carefully crafted malware, even when original user asks with stern voice, and waving with root permissions Jan 01 19:53:54 or did you think I could evaluate 1600 apps for their safety? Jan 01 19:54:03 that all brings me back to the inital question.... With all the Privacy Issues Today, I wonder why are you still using Maemo? I mean, with the non-free bits it more or less sure that meamo does spy on you like any other mobile os. So.... how will you react to this? Jan 01 19:54:14 This was one of the huge criticisms regarding Nokia N9 / Maemo6 actually, that root wasnt root, and phone would kill itself if you tried to tweak it.. Jan 01 19:54:39 somedude238: please stop spreading bullshit Jan 01 19:55:35 it#s more or less sure that there are no "non-free" - as of your definition - bits on maemo Jan 01 19:56:14 Maemo 5 came before the adware age, and before people saw money in personal data, so there's much less data transfer going on by default, which makes it easier to spot if anything suspicious were to happen Jan 01 19:57:24 ShadowJK: it would be *pretty* obvious when e.g. the PVR opengl-3D driver would try to talk to internet, or do random fopen() Jan 01 19:57:43 we don't need sourcecode to know it doesn't Jan 01 19:58:32 Ultimately to answer the question "why are you still using maemo5?", my own personal answer and opinion is that the alternatives are worse :-) Jan 01 19:58:34 but discussing with somedude (who luckily just left) is futile anyway Jan 01 19:58:51 oh i have join/parts hidden Jan 01 19:59:07 (worse) obviously, for every maemo user plain obvious to see Jan 01 20:01:08 it's just like "with all the proprietary wlan card drivers, why is any of you still using linux on his PC?" Jan 01 20:06:08 * DocScrutinizer05 just wonders if somedude eventually will find some rogue fraudster who will offer him to prove that ACME-RANDOM-OS is actually *totally* secure Jan 01 20:06:19 no matter what he does to that awesome OS Jan 01 20:07:23 I actually hope he will, since I guess he will feel much better then, even while he's not any more protected from malware and privacy threats Jan 01 20:08:32 *sigh* Jan 01 20:09:01 apropos, sandboxing browserd is probably a nice idea Jan 01 20:09:25 the heck what's up? netsplits? Jan 01 20:12:13 I wonder what it takes to run the microB instance in a chroot Jan 01 20:13:40 dbus should have the means to filter sufficiently finegrained to only startup/unhide the browserd instance and not allow random rogue access from browserd/microB to other services Jan 01 20:14:22 sure downloading documents is moot then Jan 01 20:14:43 but that's the purpose after all, no? Jan 01 20:15:37 well, you even still can download (and upload) data into/from the changeroot, and host can access the changeroot of course Jan 01 20:17:20 but the changeroot can't access the host and the services on there, like dpkg/HAM, or liblocation Jan 01 20:17:45 good new year DocScrutinizer05 Jan 01 20:17:47 or audio Jan 01 20:17:55 zammy: same to you :-) Jan 01 20:17:58 I wanna ask Jan 01 20:18:04 perl repository Jan 01 20:18:16 I must update perl for irssi scripts Jan 01 20:18:23 mhm Jan 01 20:19:18 I have a pretty foggy idea about perl Jan 01 20:19:31 and about irssi Jan 01 20:19:38 you make it pretty even if it s not Jan 01 20:19:41 make it Jan 01 20:20:22 you checked ~pkg ? Jan 01 20:20:28 ... Jan 01 20:20:32 where Jan 01 20:20:36 ~pkg Jan 01 20:20:44 dang, bot gone Jan 01 20:20:44 zzzz Jan 01 20:21:03 http://maemo.org/packages/ Jan 01 20:22:08 there's a bazillion *-perl packages Jan 01 20:22:42 incl: Jan 01 20:22:45 perl Perl Jan 01 20:22:46 perl-5.16 perl-5.16 Jan 01 20:22:48 perl-base Perl-base Jan 01 20:22:49 perl-modules Perl-modules Jan 01 20:23:19 that's about as much as I can help with perl Jan 01 20:23:26 alright Jan 01 20:23:29 got Jan 01 20:25:08 but DocScrutinizer05 check out yourself Jan 01 20:25:09 better Jan 01 20:25:15 click on the links of perl Jan 01 20:25:32 it's not really updated Jan 01 20:25:34 hm? Jan 01 20:25:56 I hve no idea what's qualifying as "updated" Jan 01 20:26:12 perl Jan 01 20:26:16 it's 5.9 Jan 01 20:26:18 .8 Jan 01 20:26:43 *shrug* Jan 01 20:27:00 toldy I have no clue of perl. Sorry Jan 01 20:28:15 and particularly I have no idea what you're looking for Jan 01 20:29:04 so instead of telling me, it's prolly the better strategy to check by yourself Jan 01 20:31:28 oh I see there are two perls Jan 01 20:31:33 one old Jan 01 20:31:40 and one 5.16 Jan 01 20:31:46 such weird Jan 01 20:31:54 that's what I posted above, yeah Jan 01 20:32:19 2014-01-01 21:22:42] incl: Jan 01 20:32:20 instead of one which includes old one too Jan 01 20:32:21 [2014-01-01 21:22:45] perl Perl Jan 01 20:32:22 [2014-01-01 21:22:45] perl-5.16 perl-5.16 Jan 01 20:33:58 OT sidenote: when that somedude guy had been serious, he had asked "which commercial email addr?" Jan 01 20:35:38 him not doing that told me enough about him and his request Jan 01 20:38:31 evry once in a while you run into self appointed smartasses who think they can make you do some job for them, since once you did that job, they can't be forced to pay what they promised and you'd rather take a 200 instead of that 6000 before you get nothing at all. Seen this more often than I need to feel happy Jan 01 20:41:31 surprisingly that's always a request like the one we seen above, of the class "make me an accounts program please" or "evaluate that business plan and come up with alternatives" or "we need a driver for this exotic printer" or the like Jan 01 20:43:00 you always can tell they don't plan to really put down that money since they didn't even bother to think 30 min about what they actually need/want Jan 01 20:46:56 when they would think about it, just for 30 min, their question would rather sound like "this exotic printer can do stuff we find in new printers that cost ~1500bucks. Do you think it's worth trying to get a driver for this exotic critter, or should we better get a new one that comes with proper drivers?" Jan 01 20:48:35 but no, they simply assume it's for _sure_ cheaper for _them_ to ask yu to make that damn junk work and write a custom driver for it. Jan 01 20:49:49 since... you can't ask more for the job than a new printer would cost them, this is rogue and nobody dares to do such thing Jan 01 20:50:59 and after all, the new printers come hardware PLUS driver for just 1500, so how could just the driver cost more than this? Jan 01 20:53:39 happy easter! and bbl ;-D Jan 01 20:57:49 wb infobot Jan 01 21:07:46 DocScrutinizer05: infobot joined! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jan 02 02:59:58 2014