**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Apr 17 02:59:58 2014 Apr 17 07:10:45 A wonderful nice splendid gorgeous Thursday Morning (UGT) on this fine Boomtime! Apr 17 08:33:54 Hi all. I seem to remember a recent power-kernel has support for enabling monitor mode on the wlan without loading 3rd party drivers. Can't seem to find the script on the maemo website though Apr 17 08:35:32 found it - http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=89823 Apr 17 09:08:43 wow, somebody is providing 1.0.1g of openssl TMO. Distributed over dropbox. Definitly gonna install it, no concerns :-). Apr 17 10:02:58 NIN101: somebody? it's niel... Apr 17 10:06:14 yeah. Apr 17 11:14:38 haha Apr 17 11:15:11 What? Apr 17 11:16:26 did he at least publish the md5sum via tmo? Apr 17 11:16:45 Ok Apr 17 11:17:15 and why the heck via dropbox? is it too large for a tmo attachment? Not to mention the "very fne" autobuilder Apr 17 11:17:23 =) Apr 17 11:18:20 DocScrutinizer05: no, no sums. Apr 17 11:18:30 :-S Apr 17 11:25:47 isn't such ssl bugfix a 1120% clear candidate for CSSU? Apr 17 11:26:28 and CSSU the *only* correct way to deploy it Apr 17 11:26:45 DocScrutinizer05: maemo uses 0.9.8 and an upgrad eto 0.9.8y should happen, not 1.0.1 as compatibility is not guaranteed. Since CSSU already did some OpenSSL updates and it is part of the bases system, yes, CSSU. Apr 17 11:27:17 mhm, was't aware. Apr 17 11:27:40 OpenSSH which is also outdated otoh is not CSSU business but god knows who, probably packaged by nokia initially and forgotten by all. Apr 17 11:28:14 sure, it's on extras Apr 17 11:28:20 afaik Apr 17 11:28:39 or tools/SDK/whoknows Apr 17 11:29:24 ssh is a normal package. -> extras. ssl is system core? -> CSSU Apr 17 11:29:30 yep. Apr 17 11:30:22 ssh is on extras Apr 17 11:30:37 then it has (or had) a maintainer Apr 17 11:30:56 and almost everybody is free to take over and update it Apr 17 11:31:55 procedure is simple: contact maintainer CC council. After a week - if no answer - pester council to transfer maintainership to you Apr 17 11:32:01 could be in tools/sdk too, but I am 100% sure it's also in extras Apr 17 11:32:24 isn't openssl still 0.98somenthing in CSSU? Apr 17 11:32:37 Maxdamantus: yes, but an outdated one Apr 17 11:32:40 Dunno. Maybe I'm not using the right repositories. Apr 17 11:33:16 but one that doesn't have one of the known major bugs. Apr 17 11:33:17 DocScrutinizer05: well with what I read about maemo's infrasturcutre/politics I am sure not many have the motivation to go through this pain. Apr 17 11:33:30 it's in-between two of them. Apr 17 11:33:30 hmm? Apr 17 11:33:59 there are no politics entangled with infra/builder Apr 17 11:34:17 hmm ok. Apr 17 11:34:20 No but the SDK settup is a mess Apr 17 11:34:56 Maemo toolchain for qt has vanished Apr 17 11:34:58 I see a lot of packages getting updates every day Apr 17 11:35:06 Maxdamantus: The current version as shipped by CSSU is not affected by heartbleet but other vulnerabilities, upgrading to 0.9.8y should be done. Apr 17 11:35:30 ah, okay. Apr 17 11:36:08 and with a bit of "politics" (like talking about it here in IRC) even promotion from -devel to extras-proper works Apr 17 11:36:08 there was a significant bug introduced by Debian maintainers in an earlier version. Apr 17 11:36:42 DocScrutinizer05: Yeah, but I am talking about setup not about a running installation Apr 17 11:36:59 Maxdamantus: that was PRNG issue in 2008. Apr 17 11:37:02 get the VM! Apr 17 11:37:43 ~sb Apr 17 11:37:46 from memory, scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, or hosted by maemo.org now, maintainer thedead1440, or at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB/ Apr 17 11:38:18 I 'have' the VM but it doesn't include qtcreator and such but scratchbox is working fine, yes Apr 17 11:38:31 ~literal sb Apr 17 11:38:34 "#maemo sb" is "see scratchbox" Apr 17 11:38:57 ~literal scratchbox Apr 17 11:38:57 "scratchbox" is "a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, or hosted by maemo.org now, maintainer thedead1440, or at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB/" Apr 17 11:39:22 for compiling/making it works Apr 17 11:39:32 hmm.. speaking of VMs, I wonder if anyone's experimented with qemu/kvm on N900. Apr 17 11:39:51 Maxdamantus: haha, where you take memory for that? Apr 17 11:39:51 infobot: no, scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB Apr 17 11:39:52 okay, DocScrutinizer05 Apr 17 11:40:24 okias: you could balloon the memory. Apr 17 11:40:39 Would love to upload updated openssh but I just can't get around making a proper build-package Apr 17 11:40:55 so it would use a bit more than a Linux instance itself. Apr 17 11:40:56 It's just my skills are too low ;) Apr 17 11:41:07 which doesn't necessarily need a lot. Apr 17 11:41:36 replace openssh with x ;) Apr 17 11:41:41 MrPingu: well in theory you could use the current package and update its source. Apr 17 11:41:44 probably way less than running a Gecko-based browser. Apr 17 11:42:11 Maxdamantus: well, then just try power-kernel + kvm Apr 17 11:42:13 so is the normally-included iommu module actually used for anything? Apr 17 11:42:36 actually, dunno if it's included in nokia's kernel. Apr 17 11:43:02 it is. Apr 17 11:43:07 NIN101: Yes that could but some guide for doing this, wouldn't hurt me Apr 17 11:43:27 moin :) Apr 17 11:44:51 okias: still thinking maemo community is dead? Apr 17 11:45:06 DocScrutinizer05: ok, fine :D Apr 17 11:45:19 btw. I wonder, I seen qt5 effort Apr 17 11:45:37 if it could be included in some official repos? Apr 17 11:45:41 sure, some nerd for sure tackled that Apr 17 11:45:49 I will take a look on mud-builder, I believe it does what I want... Apr 17 11:45:54 http://wiki.maemo.org/Qt5-Maemo5 Apr 17 11:46:04 which seems fine Apr 17 11:46:05 but our 2official repos" are "frozen" Apr 17 11:46:15 DocScrutinizer05: what do you mean? Apr 17 11:46:34 I mean there's no switch to a new Qt happening for fremantle Apr 17 11:46:48 DocScrutinizer05: well, what about estabilish new repos_ Apr 17 11:46:49 ? Apr 17 11:46:53 you're free to install Qt5 on your system, from extras(-devel) Apr 17 11:47:43 actually, I feel like pretty mess with repos on N900.. i disabled few download.nokia, which has that gpg error Apr 17 11:47:49 and of course it works Apr 17 11:48:12 s/error/warning/ Apr 17 11:48:28 we have ONE "repo" that we barely can keep up to date, despite it per definitionem is meant to just deploy bugfixes, not complete system changes like Qt4->Qt5: it's called CSSU Apr 17 11:49:18 that's next thing, I noticed cssu cssu-testing cssu-dev & cssu-thumb.. I know for what is cssu-thumb & cssu-testing... should they be combined? Apr 17 11:49:33 so cssu + cssu-testing + cssu-dev together ? Apr 17 11:49:39 *nobody* will rewrite whole maemo incl all apps to change Qt4 to Qt5 Apr 17 11:49:50 I will break my head around packaging another time, g2g Apr 17 11:49:51 bye Apr 17 11:49:51 DocScrutinizer05: well, it's not that hard Apr 17 11:50:05 still *nobody* will do it Apr 17 11:50:11 DocScrutinizer05: on desktop, few apps compiled pretty out-of-box (except some small tweaks in cmake) Apr 17 11:50:22 I could do it Apr 17 11:50:27 LOL Apr 17 11:50:33 at least for apps I use Apr 17 11:50:44 LOLOL Apr 17 11:50:57 don't be se skeptic :D Apr 17 11:51:29 once I even though about porting few pygtk apps to qt Apr 17 11:51:36 then go ahead, but for maemo at large we'd need somebody to port all ~2000 packages in extras(-devel) to Qt5 which I don't see to happen *ever* Apr 17 11:52:12 well, Qt4->Qt5 transition should be pretty easy.. .you say we have community Apr 17 11:52:13 and *why*? Apr 17 11:52:20 1) qtwebkit Apr 17 11:52:32 dream on! :-) Apr 17 11:52:48 well, I don't see anyone care much about gecko :D Apr 17 11:52:53 fremantle is basically in maintenance mode Apr 17 11:53:31 add whatever you like but don't hope for a new updated core system Apr 17 11:54:17 heck, we're still on 2.6.28-omap1 kernel Apr 17 11:54:22 DocScrutinizer05: can be created some official repo for that? Apr 17 11:54:27 no Apr 17 11:54:29 DocScrutinizer05: well, that changes soon Apr 17 11:54:36 no Apr 17 11:54:45 why not? (1 question) Apr 17 11:55:28 because of the same reasons why it didn't change the last 4 years Apr 17 11:55:54 well, as I see, there is still living eco-system, I think there could be people who contribute Apr 17 11:56:06 there are too many blobs that depend on the 2.6.28 API/ABI Apr 17 11:56:18 oh, I meant repository Apr 17 11:56:27 not kernel, I'm aware of actual kernel state :) Apr 17 11:57:04 there IS a repo! even 3. They are called extras-devel, extras-testing, extras Apr 17 11:58:53 plus there's CSSU-Testing and CSSU-Stable for updates to the core system Apr 17 11:59:43 but that won't push the whole maemo to a new incompatible configuration Apr 17 12:00:18 since it's by definition just deploying bugfixes, but not a complete system Apr 17 12:04:12 I think Qt4 and Qt5 can coexist. So if you wanna play with Qt5, go and create a Qt5 package to install it to fremantle, deploy it via maemo-extras(-devel|-testing) repo, make sure it doesn't mess up the stock fremantle system for those who install your Qt5 package. Then you can try to port stuff like microB or whatever you feel needs your love most, maybe eventually such update even has chances to get deployed via CSSU if it actually Apr 17 12:04:13 fixes stuff that needs fixing Apr 17 12:04:49 fremantle won't switch to Qt5 and deprecate Qt4 since that will definitely kill fremantle for 99% of users Apr 17 12:07:39 we need more contributors to currently existing fremantle, not a split of forces into those who maintain "old" fremantle and a few who think they need to develop an incompatible "fremantle-2.0" Apr 17 12:09:07 wasn't microB closed-source Apr 17 12:09:26 LjL-Tablet: it's "firefox" Apr 17 12:09:29 we seen this, been there, before: when everybody got told "why do you want to develop that app for maemo fremantle? Why not go for meego already? meego is da noo shite" Apr 17 12:09:47 LjL-Tablet: GUI closed, core FOSS Apr 17 12:10:10 right but Qt4 vs 5 would concern the GUI, no? Apr 17 12:10:29 nfc Apr 17 12:10:34 fair enough Apr 17 12:10:36 oh, and I thought microB gui went opensource too ... :( Apr 17 12:11:39 i, for one, would like to see my N900 keep up with things, while staying usable (in other words: not some newfangled OS that's slow as heck and very experimental, but not a completely static Maemo with just tiny bugfixes, either) Apr 17 12:11:46 but i don't get a vote, i'm just a user Apr 17 12:13:23 same for me, but with less closed-source stuff :) Apr 17 12:13:50 oh yes, that too Apr 17 12:14:04 actually swap the priorities for me, full open-source is a higher one Apr 17 12:14:17 yup :) Apr 17 12:14:32 but i guess i didn't mention that because i was under the impression it was slowly being done Apr 17 12:14:56 LjL-Tablet: we're working on it, you're welcome to join the team! :-) Apr 17 12:15:18 ~fptf Apr 17 12:15:18 methinks fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 Apr 17 12:15:21 ~cssu Apr 17 12:15:22 methinks cssu is http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU Apr 17 12:15:42 oh i'm an awful programmer, the best thing i ever did for a mobile device was a thingie to change the backlight according to light sensor on an old iPaq ;( Apr 17 12:16:14 until those efforts aren't "mission accomplished" yet, no "new repos for Qt5 fremantle" or anything like that wil make any sense at all Apr 17 12:17:04 Cruel Word… Apr 17 12:17:06 +l Apr 17 12:17:30 eh, i'm unlikely to be getting the Neo900... plus what does "mission accomplished" mean on the CSSU case, will there ever be a point when it's "perfect"? Apr 17 12:17:53 err, not really Apr 17 12:18:50 but i'd consider a complete replacement of all blobs by FOSS rev-eng versions a significant point in time, from which on we cna adjust our policies a bit Apr 17 12:19:24 however rhat's not CSSU goal, that's fptf goal Apr 17 12:21:53 any such FOSS-only fremantle will never be 100% feature-complete, and thus there are a lot of users who bought N900 because of the original fremantle OS that comes with it, and they *don't want* to switch to something that's a new OS in the end, no matter what you call it Apr 17 12:22:08 True. Apr 17 12:22:57 they don't care if it is fullof blobs, or if it has qt4 or Qt5 Apr 17 12:24:00 I have to admit I sympathize with this approach, for my daily phone Apr 17 12:24:27 I have not yet dared to switch to pure free Debian either Apr 17 12:24:40 Somehow i've gotten to like Maemo Apr 17 12:24:47 Even the closed quirky Parts… Apr 17 12:25:02 err :] Apr 17 12:25:03 :) Apr 17 12:26:57 when you want a new OS, there are quite a few to choose from, starting with debian, and FF-OS, and prolly not ending at sailfish getting ported by somebody Apr 17 12:27:22 ic Apr 17 12:27:26 why the heck would we *nuke* original fremantle for something new that pretends to be fremantle as well? Apr 17 12:27:48 only inferior, but FREEEEE Apr 17 12:27:59 why inferior ? Apr 17 12:28:16 because i would never use Debian on a phone, i don't like FF-OS, and afaik Sailfish is hardly free Apr 17 12:28:19 Nukes are mostly bad. Apr 17 12:28:21 meow Apr 17 12:28:25 mreow Apr 17 12:28:25 Me-ow… Apr 17 12:28:26 because of feature-completeness, amount of testing, and so on Apr 17 12:28:43 :3 Apr 17 12:29:17 most of those features are/can be accomplished with oss Apr 17 12:29:33 and particularly because of the lack of apps available, since nobody is going to port the thousands of apps in extras Apr 17 12:30:04 the apps would need to work out of the box (or after a painless reompile), no doubt Apr 17 12:30:27 if you want such thing, go contribute to FPTF. Do *NOT* suggest to nuke original fremantle to meet your preferences Apr 17 12:31:12 but you said you didn't want a split of forces Apr 17 12:31:18 what is it you want :P Apr 17 12:31:32 :)) Apr 17 12:31:47 FPTF is exactly about such "new fremantle" that could be thumbified, maybe even come with Qt5 per default (while still keeping compatibility for Qt4-apps), aso Apr 17 12:32:53 FPTF however is all about keeping compatibility, so we do NOT need to rebuild all thosands of apps, we do NOT need to RE the dialer etc Apr 17 12:33:17 well when it's called an effort to port it to the Neo900, i'm not so confident its people will care about it working acceptably on my N900, but eh Apr 17 12:33:45 otherwise we wouldn't call it fremantle porting, but razher "our-leete-new-OS-for-N899-and-the-like" Apr 17 12:34:00 I'm glad to get a N900-like Phone with LTE, even when there exist some Disadvantages. Apr 17 12:34:20 Maybe one could even plug in an LTE-USB-Stick via hostusb ;-) Apr 17 12:34:33 LjL-Tablet: you are missing the point. Let me tell you that people +will* care, even a lot Apr 17 12:35:24 DocScrutinizer05: well, the point isn't made very cogently in the introductory post to it... Apr 17 12:35:58 the point is obvious to the devels, and it's discussed somewhere around post#8 or somesuch Apr 17 12:36:39 an OS that's free so you can port it to $arbitrary-platform of course can get ported to N900 as well Apr 17 12:37:59 eh Apr 17 12:38:14 however the FPTF thread clearly discusses all the non-portable things we never will be able to liberate Apr 17 12:38:23 i used the word "acceptably". i can port Android to the N900 (it's been done), that doesn't mean it can seriously be used Apr 17 12:38:42 so what? Apr 17 12:39:10 ah sorry, i was under the mistaken impression i cared about my N900 being usable Apr 17 12:39:17 please read the damn FPTF thread Apr 17 12:39:52 I'm feeling tired discussing this here, to explain development 101 Apr 17 12:40:27 i always love this newfangled thing of roadmaps being in forum "threads" one has to sift through rather than, you know, a wiki or something. it's basically Usenet except done wrong and used for the wrong thing Apr 17 12:40:37 the FPTF nor CSSU devels are not Santa Claus Apr 17 12:41:34 we can't change reality so it meets your requirements, just to make you happy Apr 17 12:41:56 then don't, but don't tell me what i'd actually like to have Apr 17 12:42:10 talking of which, would having a TMO2news gateway seem reasonable ? Apr 17 12:42:18 i can accept "i'd like to have X" "you won't get X from us" Apr 17 12:42:54 (not asking anyone to actually do it, just know whether it feels reasonable to some of you) Apr 17 12:42:54 but "i'd like to make X" "i don't want you to split efforts" "but i'd like X" "you don't get it, X is what the devs will do" "but it's not" "you don't get a free lunch, split if you want"... Apr 17 12:43:18 *sigh* Apr 17 12:43:20 afk Apr 17 12:43:27 cya Apr 17 12:49:45 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1420525#post1420525 Apr 17 12:51:05 B-) Apr 17 12:52:51 #1: This thread is dedicated to discussion about concepts and details of how to port maemo fremantle OS to Neo900 (Neo900 - finally a successor of N900) - ***or more generally to new hw platforms*** Apr 17 12:53:45 ic Apr 17 12:54:17 >>Everybody who wants to contribute in porting (and ***during that step by step "freeing"***) fremantle, please don't hesitate...<< Apr 17 12:55:30 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1372710&postcount=2 Apr 17 12:56:06 I do not like Forums, sry ;-) Apr 17 12:56:10 IRC > * Apr 17 12:57:59 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91399 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Apr 17 13:14:40 2014 Apr 17 13:18:42 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1375859&postcount=21 Apr 17 13:19:04 Thanks for relaying the Forum into here. B-) Apr 17 13:21:07 Neo900 has a Compass? Way kewl! Apr 17 13:24:43 Apic: (thanks for relaying) http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91399 has a dang lot of what been argued here during last 2h Apr 17 13:25:03 that's why I'm tired to discuss all that again Apr 17 13:25:19 and thus I relay the relevant links to here Apr 17 13:25:23 Ok **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Apr 18 02:59:59 2014