**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 22 02:59:58 2014
Apr 22 09:09:52 <Apic> A wonderful splendid good Morning (UGT) on this gorgeous Boomtime!
Apr 22 13:02:16 <erlehmann> ohai
Apr 22 13:02:20 <erlehmann> i have a n900
Apr 22 13:02:33 <erlehmann> but nokia web page for flasher and firmware is not there anymore.
Apr 22 13:02:35 <erlehmann> what do?
Apr 22 13:05:11 <inz> ~combined
Apr 22 13:05:11 <infobot> hmm... combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/
Apr 22 13:05:44 <jormungandr> ~flasher
Apr 22 13:05:45 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, flasher is at http://www.jedge.com/n810/flasher/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz (also .exe!), or http://www.chakra-project.org/ccr/packages.php?ID=5027 or generally http://www.google.com/search?q=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz.   HARMattan(N9): https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fl/flasher-harmattan/flasher-harmattan.tar.gz, or -- list of filenames/md5sums: http://pastebin.com/sYKdNJSH, or http://galif.eu/nokia/
Apr 22 13:06:25 <erlehmann> intredasting
Apr 22 13:06:35 <erlehmann> thx inz jormungandr 
Apr 22 13:08:19 <erlehmann> ~emmc
Apr 22 13:08:19 <infobot> i heard emmc is magnet:?xt=urn:btih:402fb5cc8a48ecbc18a77c9cf70d869a775bcf53&dn=RX-51%5F2009SE%5F10.2010.13-2.VANILLA%5FPR%5FEMMC%5FMR0%5FARM.bin or https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4105928/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.torrent, or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2010/5/--FID--A0A22YHFSICNA/--LID--FiRe1275051276916/AE98ED9D_RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.CENTRAL-EUROPE_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin
Apr 22 17:00:06 <Mike11> hi all :)
Apr 22 17:01:38 <Mike11> the headphone jack at my laptop is not detecting my headphones, there is something in the connectors , but I can't fix it , so I was thinking of a wirkaround
Apr 22 17:01:44 <Mike11> workaround**
Apr 22 17:02:08 <Mike11> can I use my n900 as a bluetooth headset for my laptop?
Apr 22 17:02:54 <Mike11> I can do the opposite using my current bluetooth drivers (use my laptop as a headset)
Apr 22 18:20:36 <erlehmann> is there a general update strategy?
Apr 22 18:20:39 <erlehmann> i notice i have python 2.5 on my device
Apr 22 18:20:53 <erlehmann> will "apt-get update && apt-get upgrade" do?
Apr 22 18:36:24 <DocScrutinizer05> apt-get upgrade is massively deprecated
Apr 22 18:37:26 <erlehmann> DocScrutinizer05 so how do i upgrade to latest version of packages?
Apr 22 18:37:31 <erlehmann> i only got n900 yesterday
Apr 22 18:37:35 <DocScrutinizer05> it won't give you any new stuff from nokia's core repos, and even for maemo-extras repo is is prone to install stuff that HAM wouldn't and that breaks your system
Apr 22 18:38:01 <erlehmann> so what would you reccommend
Apr 22 18:40:12 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: you should install CSSU-Stable (or testing if you dare), and simply use HAM which checks for updates on a timed schedule without you worrying about it. When there are any updates, you see a blinking [!] in systray and clicking it will open HAM and offer to install the available updates
Apr 22 18:40:44 <DocScrutinizer05> CSSU is unrelated to the latter (HAM) and not exactly mandatory
Apr 22 18:42:17 <DocScrutinizer05> what however *is* mandatory: don't keep maemo-extras-devel repository enabled for those update checks, since in m-extras-devel (short: "-devel") there are lots of "updates" you rather do NOT want to install. See name of the repository
Apr 22 18:43:20 <erlehmann> let me read up on CSSU
Apr 22 18:43:52 <DocScrutinizer05> to understand this special situation around apt vs HAM is one of the keys to a satisfying maemo user experience. Maemo is NOT exactly debian, the software package management is significantly different
Apr 22 18:43:58 <erlehmann> ah, the CSSU is the stable distribution
Apr 22 18:44:49 <DocScrutinizer05> CSSU is an overlay over stock repos in which bugfixed packages get deployed
Apr 22 18:45:04 <DocScrutinizer05> it is NOT a distro
Apr 22 18:45:23 <erlehmann> oh okay
Apr 22 18:45:29 <DocScrutinizer05> particularly not a better or alternative distro
Apr 22 18:45:58 <erlehmann> but i get up to date python package?
Apr 22 18:46:07 <erlehmann> and can develop software so it is available on n900?
Apr 22 18:46:25 <erlehmann> i have made a pygame based synthesizer
Apr 22 18:46:39 <erlehmann> i would like to port that, but i need python 2.7 and pygame.
Apr 22 18:47:11 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: I think alternative python packages are available in maemo-extras*
Apr 22 18:47:36 <DocScrutinizer05> ~pkg
Apr 22 18:47:36 <infobot> i guess pkg is http://maemo.org/packages/
Apr 22 18:48:26 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/packages/view/python2.7/
Apr 22 18:48:31 <erlehmann> noice
Apr 22 18:48:34 <erlehmann> thx \o/
Apr 22 18:48:43 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/packages/view/python3/
Apr 22 18:49:00 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/packages/view/python3.2/
Apr 22 18:49:05 <erlehmann> \o/
Apr 22 18:49:43 <DocScrutinizer05> using apt-cache search and apt-cache policy is also not risky and sometimes convenient
Apr 22 18:50:10 <DocScrutinizer05> apt-get install you should already know what you're doing, some pkgs fail on that
Apr 22 18:50:24 <DocScrutinizer05> apt-get *upgrade is DEPRECATED
Apr 22 18:50:43 <erlehmann> so what use instead
Apr 22 18:51:08 <DocScrutinizer05> as a general rule: use HAM for installing any packages 
Apr 22 18:51:45 <erlehmann> how?
Apr 22 18:51:57 <erlehmann> what is command line?
Apr 22 18:52:07 <DocScrutinizer05> if HAM doesn't offer to install the package then there's a reason for that. Understand the reason before you go and ruin your system with apt-get install
Apr 22 18:52:20 <DocScrutinizer05> HAM is a GUI program
Apr 22 18:52:39 <DocScrutinizer05> the Hildon "Package Manager"
Apr 22 18:52:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ~ham
Apr 22 18:52:44 <infobot> well, ham is Hildon Application Manager.  Slow as molasses. Anticipate you got time for a beer or two until it finishes whatever it does
Apr 22 18:52:58 <erlehmann> can i exclude evil packages?
Apr 22 18:53:38 <DocScrutinizer05> you *can* do almost everything, this is linux after all
Apr 22 18:54:02 <DocScrutinizer05> but first, you need to know +what* you want to do
Apr 22 18:54:16 <DocScrutinizer05> and *how* to actually accomplish that
Apr 22 18:54:48 <DocScrutinizer05> for that you need to understand how maemo differs from what you're used to from standard debian
Apr 22 18:55:21 <erlehmann> where can i find a list of that?
Apr 22 18:56:14 <DocScrutinizer05> steer clear of shortcuts some people recommend, like "I never use HAM, I only use apt-get",  "Use fapman! it's waaay faster than HAM" and the like
Apr 22 18:56:50 <DocScrutinizer05> (list of that) this stuff is really poorly documented, if at all
Apr 22 18:57:46 <DocScrutinizer05> learning about scratchbox maemo SDK, about autobuilder and about repositories helps a bit
Apr 22 18:58:25 <DocScrutinizer05> for advanced users there are a few other interesting entry points
Apr 22 18:58:29 <DocScrutinizer05> ~jrtools
Apr 22 18:58:30 <infobot> it has been said that jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
Apr 22 18:59:00 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/Extras-devel#Limiting_the_damage
Apr 22 18:59:40 <DocScrutinizer05> ~fapman
Apr 22 18:59:40 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU). It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default. in short, it's deprecated
Apr 22 19:01:38 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: generally asking in here is always a good idea. questions like "I want to do X. I looked up in p, q, r how to do it and seems Y is the right way. Correct?" never are frowned upon
Apr 22 19:01:56 <DocScrutinizer05> and the answers you get are at least 80% correct
Apr 22 19:02:52 <erlehmann> thx
Apr 22 19:03:20 <DocScrutinizer05> yw :-) also welcome to maemo and N900!
Apr 22 19:03:37 <erlehmann> i have written a build system that depends only on /bin/sh and unix utilities
Apr 22 19:03:42 <erlehmann> redo
Apr 22 19:03:44 <erlehmann> after a design by DJB
Apr 22 19:03:53 <erlehmann> how i make a package? make deb package first?
Apr 22 19:04:24 <DocScrutinizer05> you generally want to use maemo scratchbox SDK
Apr 22 19:04:26 <DocScrutinizer05> ~sb
Apr 22 19:04:27 <infobot> methinks scratchbox is a cross-compiling system that uses binfmt_misc, rpc calls, and an nfs mount to make a cross-build appear to be 100% native, and is found at http://www.scratchbox.org/, hosted by maemo now. Also at http://maemo.merlin1991.at/files/SB
Apr 22 19:04:33 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm
Apr 22 19:04:51 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide
Apr 22 19:07:32 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: ^^^
Apr 22 19:07:39 <erlehmann> thx
Apr 22 19:09:05 * freemangordon needs ARM hexrays :(
Apr 22 19:09:26 <freemangordon> how it is possible it is still not leaked?!?
Apr 22 19:10:08 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: recently nobody succeeded with installing 'native' maemo SDK afaik (I.E. installing scratchbox to your PC's /scratchbox/ dir). It's widely considered too cumbersome. Instead use a VM with a complete SB installation inside
Apr 22 19:10:39 <erlehmann> DocScrutinizer05 nobody succeeded?
Apr 22 19:10:40 <freemangordon> hmm, actually I did it 2 months ago
Apr 22 19:10:54 <freemangordon> on ununtu 12.04 64 bit
Apr 22 19:10:55 <DocScrutinizer05> ok
Apr 22 19:11:01 <freemangordon> but it is tricky
Apr 22 19:11:06 <freemangordon> for sure
Apr 22 19:11:07 <erlehmann> DocScrutinizer05 let me note down. apt-get autoremove and apt-get upgrade are dangerous, right?
Apr 22 19:11:11 <DocScrutinizer05> nevertheless a VM is a viable alternative
Apr 22 19:11:19 <freemangordon> waaay better
Apr 22 19:11:26 <DocScrutinizer05> right
Apr 22 19:11:50 <DocScrutinizer05> apt-get dist-upgrade is bullshit!
Apr 22 19:12:33 <erlehmann> bullshit?
Apr 22 19:12:58 <DocScrutinizer05> and don't even think about installing a complete development environment (gcc, all libs etc) on your N900 natively
Apr 22 19:13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: dist-upgrade doesn't work at all
Apr 22 19:13:38 <DocScrutinizer05> ther's basically no such thing in maemo
Apr 22 19:14:13 <DocScrutinizer05> maemo is based on metapackages that do the whole upgrade task
Apr 22 19:14:39 <DocScrutinizer05> maemo has a terribly messed up dependency "management"
Apr 22 19:14:47 <DocScrutinizer05> read: NONE at all
Apr 22 19:15:25 <DocScrutinizer05> (this is the simplfied yellow press version of the whole story)
Apr 22 19:15:59 <erlehmann> lel
Apr 22 19:16:11 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway this is why usual apt-get upgrade and syblings doesn't work as expected
Apr 22 19:19:13 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: apt-cache dump mp-fremantle-generic-pr
Apr 22 19:19:26 <DocScrutinizer05> duck and cover!
Apr 22 19:19:45 <erlehmann> what
Apr 22 19:20:54 <erlehmann> WTF
Apr 22 19:21:29 <DocScrutinizer05> IroN900:~# apt-cache dump mp-fremantle-generic-pr|wc -l
Apr 22 19:21:31 <DocScrutinizer05> 84531
Apr 22 19:21:50 <erlehmann> how can i stretch the battery?
Apr 22 19:22:51 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_Consumption  http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Power_management
Apr 22 19:23:02 <erlehmann> thx
Apr 22 19:23:03 <DocScrutinizer05> N900 software power management
Apr 22 19:23:10 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_software_power_management
Apr 22 19:23:44 <erlehmann> on my htc dream i have powertop
Apr 22 19:26:16 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/packages/view/powertop/
Apr 22 19:26:32 <DocScrutinizer05> ~zzzpowertop
Apr 22 19:26:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listkeys powertop
Apr 22 19:26:45 <infobot> Factoid search of 'powertop' by key (1): powertop.
Apr 22 19:26:53 <DocScrutinizer05> dang
Apr 22 19:26:58 <DocScrutinizer05> ~zzztop
Apr 22 19:26:58 <infobot> zzztop is, like, - the better and even FOSS powertop - http://wiki.maemo.org/Zzztop
Apr 22 19:27:37 <erlehmann> thx
Apr 22 19:27:40 <DocScrutinizer05> yw
Apr 22 19:31:29 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: I recently did a lil fancy and made a catalogs-swapper, so you can do "apt-get install <some-leete-tool>" and then swap back catalog settings to what they are supposed to be 
Apr 22 19:31:56 <erlehmann> catalog?
Apr 22 19:31:57 <Apic> Cool
Apr 22 19:32:02 <erlehmann> catalog is sources.list?
Apr 22 19:32:09 <DocScrutinizer05> basically yes
Apr 22 19:32:23 <DocScrutinizer05> just for maemo it's a tad more complicated
Apr 22 19:32:39 <DocScrutinizer05> you are NOT supposed to edit sources.list manually
Apr 22 19:33:05 <DocScrutinizer05> use HAM for that, but it sucks after the 2nd time
Apr 22 19:33:17 <DocScrutinizer05> thus I did this lil silly
Apr 22 19:34:16 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/session-log_enable-catalogs_README.txt   http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/enable-catalogs
Apr 22 19:42:02 <erlehmann> DocScrutinizer05 i have noted down the stuff you said, thx http://news.dieweltistgarnichtso.net/notes/nokia-n900.html
Apr 22 19:44:32 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)
Apr 22 19:46:20 * DocScrutinizer05 ponders to eventually do a 3liner script to switch to "all", invoke HAM, and on HAM exit switch back to "basic" for the repos. Then create an alternative .desktop for "PowerHAM"
Apr 22 19:52:25 <DocScrutinizer05> ~docscrutinizer
Apr 22 19:52:26 <infobot> [docscrutinizer] jOERG, a HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko
Apr 22 19:52:31 <DocScrutinizer05> err
Apr 22 19:52:34 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: 
Apr 22 19:52:37 <DocScrutinizer05> ~joerg
Apr 22 19:52:37 <infobot> i heard joerg is a natural born EE, ex HW-developer and engineer of Openmoko, now mainly involved in maintenance of maemo and N900. Usually known as DocScrutinizer
Apr 22 19:53:28 <DocScrutinizer05> though I don't mind getting caled DocScrutinizer05
Apr 22 19:54:07 <erlehmann> DocScrutinizer05 do you want me to change the name?
Apr 22 19:54:18 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: generally you wanna join and exploit search in talk.maemo.org
Apr 22 19:54:28 <DocScrutinizer05> erlehmann: I don't care
Apr 22 19:54:38 <erlehmann> okay :)
Apr 22 19:55:40 <DocScrutinizer05> much noise and trolls in tmo, but also a really overwhelming wealth of info
Apr 22 19:57:49 <DocScrutinizer05> btw: Neo900 might be interesting for you (sorry for shameless advertising), and FPTF needs all the help it can get
Apr 22 19:57:55 <DocScrutinizer05> ~fptf
Apr 22 19:57:55 <infobot> rumour has it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308
Apr 22 19:58:30 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 
Apr 22 19:58:48 <DocScrutinizer05> and even neo900.org
Apr 22 20:00:59 <erlehmann> i don't need a faster CPU, more RAM and an LTE modem
Apr 22 20:35:04 <chem|st> erlehmann: where does all this LTE desire come from? H+ is faster than my landline... or does mobile latency magically decrease with it?
Apr 22 20:35:14 <erlehmann> dunno
Apr 22 20:35:59 <chem|st> contracts over here are pretty expensive, at least with a quota fitting the mbit/s
Apr 22 20:37:33 <chem|st> even now I can blow my quota within 50 seconds and get throttled to 54kbit...
Apr 22 20:40:20 <chem|st> erlehmann: ok I see some plus points apart of the speed, lower latency and lower consumption due to lower base-bands - lower bands also means better reception...
Apr 22 20:42:18 <LjL-Laplet> mobile phones really need aggressive ways to prolong battery life
Apr 22 20:44:47 <chem|st> LjL-Laplet: well it is not only hardware... bad software is actually the main cause of battery drain
Apr 22 20:45:02 <LjL-Laplet> main? doubtful
Apr 22 20:45:18 <LjL-Laplet> i mean sure, my phone could spend 6 days in standby with no misbehaving software
Apr 22 20:45:37 <LjL-Laplet> but use the network and keep the screen off, and eh. it's the hardware taking up the vast majority of the power
Apr 22 20:45:54 <chem|st> I got my laptop from 5h to 8h with simple measures, software wise
Apr 22 20:46:33 <chem|st> the standard system is based on software that is meant to run on a wall-powerout...
Apr 22 20:46:40 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, LTE actually +has* 2nagicaly" lower latency, and better power consumption properties, than UMTS(HSPA)
Apr 22 20:46:53 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, LTE actually *has* "magicaly" lower latency, and better power consumption properties, than UMTS(HSPA)
Apr 22 20:47:18 <chem|st> yeah just read what might be possible, still it is far from what is expected or desired
Apr 22 20:47:28 <DocScrutinizer05> mobile phones need better apps that don't waste power on doing idle busy all the time
Apr 22 20:47:44 <chem|st> I doubt 5ms and 300mbit/s will come all to soon to user grade
Apr 22 20:48:26 <LjL-Laplet> DocScrutinizer05: mobile phones need better OS's that kill their apps with fire if they even dare try
Apr 22 20:48:37 <DocScrutinizer05> LOL
Apr 22 20:48:55 <DocScrutinizer05> go for android if that's what you look for
Apr 22 20:49:09 <LjL-Laplet> yeah, no, Android doesn't really do that (and I'm using it)
Apr 22 20:49:14 <DocScrutinizer05> or winphone, or even iOS
Apr 22 20:49:37 <LjL-Laplet> iOS does that by... killing *all* the apps
Apr 22 20:49:45 <erlehmann> like an out of memory killer
Apr 22 20:49:49 <erlehmann> only for power consumption
Apr 22 20:49:59 <LjL-Laplet> not sure about Windows Phone, Windows 8 also likes to freeze everything though
Apr 22 20:50:01 <bencoh> with FIRE yay :)
Apr 22 20:50:06 <bencoh> (sorry)
Apr 22 20:50:09 <LjL-Laplet> erlehmann: Android has things like that but they just don't work too well
Apr 22 20:50:23 <DocScrutinizer05> the approach is nonsense
Apr 22 20:51:00 <LjL-Laplet> heh, must be why everyone's using it
Apr 22 20:51:13 <DocScrutinizer05> OOM-alike approach would be semi-sensible if only we could attribute resource consuption to the particular app
Apr 22 20:51:24 <bencoh> it is nonsense, it goes along the webcoder way though
Apr 22 20:51:24 <chem|st> my tablet lasts forever but that has a battery in the size of two iphones
Apr 22 20:51:35 <bencoh> let's monkeycode and let the OS handle this
Apr 22 20:51:51 <DocScrutinizer05> my N900 lasts for 2 weeks, on idle
Apr 22 20:51:56 <LjL-Laplet> DocScrutinizer05: what is the reason we can't?
Apr 22 20:52:08 <bencoh> I'm quite sure my n900 wont last for 2 weeks idling
Apr 22 20:52:17 <LjL-Laplet> my N900 hardly lasts two weeks powered off
Apr 22 20:53:55 <chem|st> my n9 lasts 2 weeks in flightmode... but thats about it
Apr 22 20:54:09 <LjL-Laplet> yeah, flight mode isn't exceptionally useful though
Apr 22 20:54:50 <DocScrutinizer05> my N900 even lasts 2 days (48h) with xchat IRC active via WLAN
Apr 22 20:55:05 <chem|st> the jolla lasts several days up to a week on my current use case
Apr 22 20:55:37 <chem|st> yeah I think 2-3 days wifi is doable with an n900
Apr 22 20:55:55 <bencoh> definitely
Apr 22 20:56:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and still one whole day usually, when doing IRC via 2G
Apr 22 20:57:00 <DocScrutinizer05> only a 4h though when going 3G aka UMTS
Apr 22 20:57:18 <chem|st> well, back in the early days it did not get to 3 days idle
Apr 22 20:57:34 <bencoh> wow, so there are some people who use umts on it ... :>
Apr 22 20:57:48 <DocScrutinizer05> and the only way to "fix" this is by killing/stopping xchat as soon as you move it to background or lock the screen
Apr 22 20:58:27 <DocScrutinizer05> which is exactly what defeats the whole pupose of maemo
Apr 22 20:58:42 <chem|st> bencoh: I even used voip on 3G^^
Apr 22 20:58:44 <DocScrutinizer05> purpose*
Apr 22 20:58:50 <bencoh> chem|st: impressive ^^
Apr 22 20:58:54 <DocScrutinizer05> I do that frequently
Apr 22 20:59:05 <DocScrutinizer05> just works
Apr 22 20:59:36 <DocScrutinizer05> (as long as I'm on 3G all the time, you can't switch to 3G when inbound call started ringing)
Apr 22 21:00:20 <DocScrutinizer05> however I'm NOT using (and never did) this Skype abomination
Apr 22 21:00:40 <DocScrutinizer05> known to eat your battery alive
Apr 22 21:00:49 <bencoh> bones and flesh
Apr 22 21:00:56 <bencoh> (and heart)
Apr 22 21:01:03 <DocScrutinizer05> :nod:
Apr 22 21:01:58 <chem|st> huuh it wasn't a hotline hoax, I really have a 13eur contract now with 100minutes/sms 50sms and 250MB/quota...and music-flat
Apr 22 21:04:03 <chem|st> my sister was always joking about her contract and the ancient computer they need to maintain to keep those contracts alive^^
Apr 22 21:04:33 <bencoh> ?
Apr 22 21:04:53 <chem|st> bencoh: you know the size of your SIM?
Apr 22 21:05:08 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O
Apr 22 21:05:21 * DocScrutinizer05 fetches caliper
Apr 22 21:05:39 <chem|st> think its 74K now... my sis had a 4K SIM and was wondering why she had no working internet on her n900
Apr 22 21:06:18 <DocScrutinizer05> .oO(???)
Apr 22 21:07:06 <DocScrutinizer05> how's APN related to size of user storage for contacts etc on SIM?
Apr 22 21:12:09 <DocScrutinizer05> how's APN related to SIM at large? except maybe for storing the credentials ("URL" [pinternet.o2online.de], User [internet], Password [internet])
Apr 22 21:13:08 <DocScrutinizer05> the IP stack is running on the modem anyway
Apr 22 21:13:56 <chem|st> on the 4K SIM was a WAP portal preset only
Apr 22 21:14:25 <chem|st> and that seemed non-existant those 8 years later
Apr 22 21:14:29 <bencoh> chem|st: mine is quite old
Apr 22 21:14:38 <bencoh> like 10yo
Apr 22 21:15:13 <chem|st> and of course it was not activated for UMTS
Apr 22 21:15:38 <chem|st> no idea what that means but they needed to replace the SIM to get it to work
Apr 22 21:16:18 <DocScrutinizer05> my SM is from 2000
Apr 22 21:16:21 <DocScrutinizer05> SIM
Apr 22 21:16:36 <chem|st> what size?
Apr 22 21:16:40 <DocScrutinizer05> mini
Apr 22 21:16:45 <DocScrutinizer05> err
Apr 22 21:16:48 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry no idea
Apr 22 21:17:19 <chem|st> I ahve actually no clue how old it was, it might be back from '98 or 99
Apr 22 21:17:26 <DocScrutinizer05> there are very few options available to rad out the SIM storage size
Apr 22 21:17:39 <DocScrutinizer05> read*
Apr 22 21:18:00 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe the according AT command would work via pnatd
Apr 22 21:18:19 <DocScrutinizer05> but I ddon't know the AT command by heart
Apr 22 21:18:44 <chem|st> the storage size is written on the SIM, at least on those I got
Apr 22 21:19:10 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, last time I looked at my SIM must be two years ago
Apr 22 21:19:33 <chem|st> my old one has 72k written on it...
Apr 22 21:19:42 <DocScrutinizer05> ignoring my own advice I don't even remove it on reflashing the firmware
Apr 22 21:20:01 <bencoh> why should you anyway ?
Apr 22 21:20:11 <DocScrutinizer05> ~cherry
Apr 22 21:20:12 <chem|st> I never removed it if not swapping phones...
Apr 22 21:20:18 <DocScrutinizer05> for example
Apr 22 21:20:28 <chem|st> well the sms...
Apr 22 21:20:37 <chem|st> don't care
Apr 22 21:20:44 <DocScrutinizer05> me neither
Apr 22 21:21:02 <DocScrutinizer05> they already boobytrapped me with that one
Apr 22 21:21:31 <DocScrutinizer05> so further SMS just cost me a 9ct or sth
Apr 22 21:21:44 <DocScrutinizer05> not worth the hassle to remove the SIM for that
Apr 22 21:22:49 <DocScrutinizer05> on other reports there seem to be cases where a garbled contact record on SIM causes modem to blow chunks, and that could easily stop flashing at all
Apr 22 21:23:05 <chem|st> how big is the SIM seed anyways? like 128bit? or 256bit? well three times... but that is not even 1k...
Apr 22 21:23:37 <DocScrutinizer05> then 3rd you just don't need the SIM for flashing, so it's best practice to remove it, so nothing can happen to it, no matter what
Apr 22 21:23:41 <chem|st> then some 512bit APN data so we have 70k left for user's contacts?
Apr 22 21:24:38 <M4rtinK> SIM toolkit ! :D
Apr 22 21:25:04 <DocScrutinizer05> SAT/STK doesn't work on maemo/BB5
Apr 22 21:25:31 <DocScrutinizer05> which mostly is considered a grace rather than a flaw
Apr 22 21:27:17 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway I dunno of any APN that needs SAT to get access to it
Apr 22 21:27:31 <DocScrutinizer05> some online banking needs SAT, yes
Apr 22 21:28:43 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder when they swapped name from SAT to STK
Apr 22 21:28:57 <DocScrutinizer05> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_Application_Toolkit
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Apr 23 02:59:58 2014