**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jul 13 02:59:59 2014 Jul 13 09:02:29 DocScrutinizer05: could i ask the n900 phone lock is errased with reflash the device? Jul 13 09:03:14 only when you do full reflash Jul 13 09:03:26 incl the eMMC Jul 13 09:03:54 ok thats great... Jul 13 09:04:29 * drathir need think about but maybe buy new one n900, not worth fix current one i guess... Jul 13 09:04:32 you however could flash rootfs-only with a PR1.1.1 fiasco and thus regain control of the device incl the data on eMMC Jul 13 09:06:39 then scavenge all the data from eMMC, run the lockcode hack to discover the code that's set, then reset the code to whatever you like, and then reflash to PR1.3.1 Jul 13 09:06:56 ~lockcode Jul 13 09:06:56 [lockcode] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=524522#post524522 Jul 13 09:07:38 current one i will save for neo900 replace in future maybe... And that one what i think to buy is locked by mistake and key forgotten, ofc warranty not valid and prove of buy the phone with box+imei with phone that low chance is stolen one... Jul 13 09:08:05 * DocScrutinizer05 makes a mental note to kick out that closed blob for lockcode management for neo-fremantle, and replace it by owns stuff eventually Jul 13 09:08:50 DocScrutinizer05: oh wow even easier method, but i guess if i buy i goin to be sure no malicious staff inside and do full reflash, but for check before i try that second method too... Jul 13 09:09:13 good plan, yes! Jul 13 09:09:50 DocScrutinizer05: yes its great idea to improve security too... Jul 13 09:11:05 well, that's on my private todo list for Neo900, but we will start without any special OS support, beyond a debian with BSP to show/check the new functions Jul 13 09:12:31 Neo900 isn't a complete product like Nokia N900 been, with an OS provided by manufacturer and not really meant to run anything else on it Jul 13 09:13:13 we (Neo900 UG) are a mere hw manufacturer, like Asus for your PC motherboard Jul 13 09:13:37 up to you to pick the OS of your choice and install it Jul 13 09:15:59 DocScrutinizer05: /me like testing the new ideas always... Jul 13 09:17:14 mostly when thats great ideas and no other similar alternatives... Jul 13 09:18:11 by the time Neo900 sales start, there most likely will be replicant and SHR as OS choices already, and Neo-fremantle hopefully already in the beta phase where most basic stuff works sufficiently well for daily use Jul 13 09:18:18 * drathir thinks its insane that android need 4cores cpus and running also with no problems on one core w/o gpu acceleration... Jul 13 09:19:36 well, comsider one to two of the CPUs always being busy with modem firmware radiostack Jul 13 09:20:29 when you take that fact into account, it's not surprising that those devices need at least dualcore to run properly Jul 13 09:21:32 form the chip manufacturer's POV the whole user OS is just of minor relevance, as long as the modem radio stack just works Jul 13 09:22:27 then they eventually noticed that this concept tends to not work that great when you for example want to stream a video from UMTS to your phone screen Jul 13 09:22:40 DocScrutinizer05: oh that good points didnt know that, always thinks that radio have hw acceleration and os side only sent command to it... Jul 13 09:22:45 so... bingo, we need multicore SoC Jul 13 09:23:22 yes, that's true for N900 and Neo900, but hardly for any other smartphone you can buy today Jul 13 09:24:05 jolla for example using a snapdragon SoC that shares the CPUs between radio stack aka modem and the user OS Jul 13 09:24:52 * drathir need to add on my virt list that point in place whay like n900 ^^ Jul 13 09:25:03 why* Jul 13 09:25:15 basically every Samsung and younameit-otherBrand does exactly same approach of sharing CPU and RAM Jul 13 09:26:21 DocScrutinizer05: for me its strange behaviour a little exclude in case that is more cheap solution... Jul 13 09:26:31 what's even worse: this sharing of CPU and RAM allows modem firmware to gain *complete* control over the whole device Jul 13 09:26:46 true Jul 13 09:28:08 and to protect modem firmware from user OS gaining control over it, you have all sorts of nasty stuff in hardware that blocks what you can do on user OS Jul 13 09:29:51 of course such protection always works only one direction, there's always one party that is in control of the safety blocks and one party that gets controlled by the safety blocks. That's *always* like modem firmware is the master and user OS is the controlled one Jul 13 09:31:16 in N(eo)900 we have a simple sort of "protection": we use two separate systems, one for modem and one for linux, and they are linked only by 4 datalines for some sort of serial data transfer Jul 13 09:31:27 :-) Jul 13 09:31:48 that sounds scarry to me... ;/ i more prefer that user have full controll on the parts, even if os infected thats only user fault... Jul 13 09:33:23 DocScrutinizer05: thats should be and also if needed that connection should be disabled ofc... Jul 13 09:35:31 and i guess is better monitoring something if that have only short possibility to interaction and not full shared control... Jul 13 09:49:36 DocScrutinizer05: why do modern smartphone makers do it this way, then? Jul 13 09:49:44 to save on costs? Jul 13 09:49:59 would it really cost that much more to run the radio on a separate chip? Jul 13 09:56:58 yes Jul 13 09:57:26 it costs a $$$ and quite some real estate Jul 13 10:02:41 see for example N900: it has BB5 aka RapuYama chip (analog toOMAP3430), Gazoo (analog Gaia aka TWL4030), it needs RAM, and flash storage. That's 4 rather large and complex (and expensive) chips that you don't need on a integrated design where modem uses the already existing CPU and companion chip and RAM and storage Jul 13 10:03:40 it's also 4 chips less to cram into your case Jul 13 10:05:30 a OMAP3430 costs ~30USD, a companion chip maybe 20, storage and RAM isn't for free either Jul 13 10:06:03 then you need PCB real estate for the whole stuff Jul 13 10:06:44 in the end it can save you 20..40% of your BOM cost Jul 13 10:07:39 now think about EE R&D going stingy about a chip for 1USD already, then you know how much is the pressure to reduce cost Jul 13 10:10:26 heck that's easily a 50USD you can save *per device*! On your own manufacturing costs. Usually device manufacturers don't earn a 50 bucks per device at all Jul 13 10:10:57 the market is tough Jul 13 10:11:34 your new device has to be 0.5mm slimmer than the competition, and a 5 bucks cheaper Jul 13 10:12:34 none of the average joe customers understands that a decent design costs real hard bucks to pay for it Jul 13 10:13:58 remember the discussions "OOOH NOES why has Neo900 to be THAT expensive?" while it's actually almost same price like the N900 been 5 years ago Jul 13 10:14:11 .o0(that extra chips will also drain power) Jul 13 10:14:18 nowadays that crap has to be cheap, no matter how EE odes it Jul 13 10:14:35 Humpelst1lzchen: a tiny bit but way less than you might think Jul 13 10:14:45 does* Jul 13 10:14:54 it Jul 13 10:15:31 oh, and how much do I think? Jul 13 10:15:34 there's not so much difference between a dualcore and tow separate cores when it comes to power consumption Jul 13 10:15:44 two* Jul 13 10:16:09 DocScrutinizer05: FR: dual core Jul 13 10:16:21 hmmß Jul 13 10:16:39 neo900 ... Had to google that. You guys are actually making a new n-series phone? Is it going to have some OS bundled ? Jul 13 10:16:50 no Jul 13 10:17:26 [2014-07-13 Sun 11:13:13] we (Neo900 UG) are a mere hw manufacturer, like Asus for your PC motherboard Jul 13 10:17:36 [2014-07-13 Sun 11:12:31] Neo900 isn't a complete product like Nokia N900 been, with an OS provided by manufacturer and not really meant to run anything else on it Jul 13 10:17:44 [2014-07-13 Sun 11:13:37] up to you to pick the OS of your choice and install it Jul 13 10:18:19 Katajakasa: i think nseries is a nokia trademark Jul 13 10:18:48 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91142 Jul 13 10:19:06 Yup, i just found the thread, reading. Jul 13 10:19:25 ooh, then you're busy the rest of this weekend Jul 13 10:19:29 lol Jul 13 10:19:41 :D Jul 13 10:19:54 DocScrutinizer05: feature request: fart apps Jul 13 10:20:03 It says in the post that the hardware is open... But how about drivers for that hw ? Jul 13 10:20:07 build your own one Jul 13 10:20:14 open hardware usually means open drivers Jul 13 10:20:19 not necessarily ... Jul 13 10:20:26 yes, necessary Jul 13 10:20:30 hell, it's what it means Jul 13 10:20:41 .oO(unless you want to use the graphic card) Jul 13 10:20:41 i doubt we have exact schematics for the omap SoC Jul 13 10:20:56 you can't build your own Jul 13 10:21:25 you have the registers of the omap in the TRM and Linux also runs on it Jul 13 10:21:43 Katajakasa: actually Jul 13 10:22:01 what definition of "open hardware" do you have that means that there can be no drivers? Jul 13 10:22:29 Schematics etc. can be open, but you can have closed blobs (like graphics accelerator) Jul 13 10:23:35 we don't have open driver for the GFX-3D Jul 13 10:23:52 SHR runs fine without it Jul 13 10:24:02 replicant too Jul 13 10:24:33 for Neo-fremantle I hope every user can revamp the drivers of the N900-fremantle he owns Jul 13 10:25:08 please read http://neo900.org - it's all there Jul 13 10:25:41 we openly explain what's open Jul 13 10:25:44 :-) Jul 13 10:26:20 Oh, there are links on the right side of the nav bar, too Jul 13 10:27:04 well with the n900 blob we are forced to stay on the old xorg/kernel release..but lets worry about that later Jul 13 10:27:26 I don't even own the original N900 :P Jul 13 10:28:54 http://neo900.org/faq#floss Jul 13 10:29:52 Katajakasa: too bad, you probably need a N900 owner to share his binaries with you then Jul 13 10:30:16 ^that shouldn't be a problem... Jul 13 10:30:20 since I guess it's "illegal" to download the fiasco images when you don't own a N900 Jul 13 10:30:34 ~pr13^1 Jul 13 10:30:37 ~pr131 Jul 13 10:30:39 combined is, like, the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ Jul 13 10:31:18 uhm Jul 13 10:31:20 btw Jul 13 10:31:35 should be backup the image before nokia is loosing them? Jul 13 10:31:41 I know some people who have N900, it probably wouldn't be a problem Jul 13 10:33:29 ~combined Jul 13 10:33:29 i heard combined is the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ Jul 13 10:33:34 ~emmc Jul 13 10:33:34 hmm... emmc is magnet:?xt=urn:btih:402fb5cc8a48ecbc18a77c9cf70d869a775bcf53&dn=RX-51%5F2009SE%5F10.2010.13-2.VANILLA%5FPR%5FEMMC%5FMR0%5FARM.bin or https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4105928/RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.VANILLA_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.torrent, or http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2010/5/--FID--A0A22YHFSICNA/--LID--FiRe1275051276916/AE98ED9D_RX-51_2009SE_10.2010.13-2.CENTRAL-EUROPE_PR_EMMC_MR0_ARM.bin Jul 13 10:33:39 ~flasher Jul 13 10:33:39 flasher is probably at http://www.jedge.com/n810/flasher/maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz (also .exe!), or http://www.chakra-project.org/ccr/packages.php?ID=5027 or generally http://www.google.com/search?q=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz. HARMattan(N9): https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/fl/flasher-harmattan/flasher-harmattan.tar.gz, or -- list of filenames/md5sums: http://pastebin.com/sYKdNJSH, or http://galif.eu/nokia/ Jul 13 10:33:40 DM3730, so the graphics chip should be SGX530 ... maybe there is some hope. http://powervr.gnu.org.ve/doku.php :/ Jul 13 10:34:05 yes, there's some 2hope" Jul 13 10:34:13 s/2/"/ Jul 13 10:34:14 DocScrutinizer05 meant: yes, there's some "hope" Jul 13 10:34:14 2hope4me Jul 13 10:36:40 DocScrutinizer05: https://maemo.org/ doesn't work Jul 13 10:37:17 so? how I'm related? Jul 13 10:37:32 you're an op in #maemo! Jul 13 10:37:35 i think Jul 13 10:37:41 eyup Jul 13 10:37:50 and it's also always your fault, anyway Jul 13 10:39:14 mh, apparently the ocsp server doesn't know wtf that certificate is supposed to be Jul 13 10:39:16 because it's expired Jul 13 10:39:26 DocScrutinizer05: https://maemo.org/ doesn't work due to expired ssl cert Jul 13 10:40:22 known issue, but not my problem Jul 13 10:40:42 btw for me it works just fine Jul 13 10:41:00 I'm not using google spyware ;-) Jul 13 10:41:59 konqueror just tells me that the cert is invalid, and asks me whether to accrept it for this session only or forever Jul 13 10:43:50 the certs are a problem since the times Nokia transferred the servers and stewardship to community, but not the ownership to the domain. You can't easily buy a SSL wildcard cert when you're not admin-c of the domain Jul 13 10:44:37 which, honstly, is the sole purpose of certs Jul 13 10:46:16 asl hildon foundation what's status of those obscure negotiations that allegedly happen between HiFo and Nokia sincce almost 2 years Jul 13 10:46:22 ask, even Jul 13 10:47:39 btw that's also the reason why mxr.maemo.org doesn't work anymore Jul 13 10:48:00 DNS record fubar Jul 13 10:56:29 ~literal combined Jul 13 10:56:29 "combined" is "the rootfs fiasco image of maemo. For N900 latest (PR1.3.1) see http://nds2.fds-fire.nokia.com/fdp/interface/FiRe/2011/9/--FID--A0A22MVWFVFAM/--LID--FiRe1317015685654/RX-51_2009SE_21.2011.38-1_PR_COMBINED_MR0_ARM.bin, or http://galif.eu/nokia/" Jul 13 10:56:57 ~tabletsdev Jul 13 10:56:57 http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://skeiron.org/tablets-dev/ or http://tabletsdev.maemo.org Jul 13 10:58:39 ~no, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/ Jul 13 10:58:55 infobot: no, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/ Jul 13 10:58:55 okay, DocScrutinizer05 Jul 13 11:00:41 Humpelst1lzchen: ^^^ Jul 13 11:03:12 dos1: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Devices/NokiaN900/InstallGuide isn't really up to date Jul 13 11:07:21 ~tabletsdev is also http://www.mmnt.net/db/0/0/93.81.63.203/repositories/skeiron.org/skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads Jul 13 11:07:21 DocScrutinizer05: okay Jul 13 11:07:38 ~tabletsdev Jul 13 11:07:38 from memory, tabletsdev is http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/ http://wiki.maemo.org/Tabletsdev , http://tabletsdev.maemo.org (all defunct, thanks Nokia) or the nice site http://www.fladnag.net/downloads/telephone/n900/tools/, or http://www.mmnt.net/db/0/0/93.81.63.203/repositories/skeiron.org/skeiron.org/tablets-dev/maemo_dev_env_downloads Jul 13 11:11:07 ~factinfo tabletsdev Jul 13 11:11:07 tabletsdev -- created by DocScrutinizer05 <~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg> at Tue Aug 27 21:07:53 2013 (319 days); last modified 3m 46s ago by DocScrutinizer05!~saturn@openmoko/engineers/joerg; it has been requested 9 times, last by DocScrutinizer05, 3m 29s ago. Jul 13 11:13:01 when I last tried, I couldn't get recent SHR images to boot on N900 Jul 13 11:16:59 hmm Jul 13 11:17:18 how comes? Jul 13 11:19:23 no one maintaining it Jul 13 11:19:33 shouldn't bitrot Jul 13 11:19:51 no one actually testing it and reporting bugs in time Jul 13 11:19:55 it's supposed to be self-comprisng, nore or less, no? Jul 13 11:20:11 more* or less Jul 13 11:20:27 kernel? Jul 13 11:20:57 afair it didn't want to mount partition on my device Jul 13 11:21:04 but I didn't look further into it Jul 13 11:21:06 o.O Jul 13 11:21:28 oooh, that could actually be low level kernel stuff maybe Jul 13 11:21:41 I'm not even sure which kernel SHR is using on N900 Jul 13 11:21:52 I bet on KP Jul 13 11:22:01 what else? Jul 13 11:22:26 I think it was some newer kernel version, from some meego porting project of smth like that Jul 13 11:22:55 KP is probably already too old for current OE userspace Jul 13 11:23:04 umm, $ curl -O http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo5.0/free/k/kernel/kernel_2.6.28-20103103+0m5_armel.deb Jul 13 11:23:59 maybe I should try freemangordon's kernel :P Jul 13 11:24:28 SHR will be probably much more happy with it than Maemo Jul 13 11:25:00 dunno Jul 13 11:25:30 maybe, but it for sure should learn to operate a few peripherals first Jul 13 11:25:46 like camera or even audio Jul 13 11:26:15 still better than not booting at all ;) Jul 13 11:26:24 but anyway, playing with that has rather low priority on my todo list Jul 13 11:26:34 not booting doesn't make sense in my book Jul 13 11:27:28 whatever, when the howto suggests to download stuff from tabletsdev then people most likely will fal with that hurdle already Jul 13 11:27:43 fail* Jul 13 11:27:52 howto is already out of date with more than just tabletsdev Jul 13 11:28:04 it would need complete rewrite Jul 13 11:28:16 mhm Jul 13 11:28:31 then it's even worse Jul 13 11:29:03 maybe leave in the >>Download the Flasher 3.5 from http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/maemo-dev-env-downloads.php?f=maemo_flasher-3.5_2.5.2.2.tar.gz<< hen, so users notice how useless it is Jul 13 11:32:52 there is a possibility that starting with the next month I might have more time for gta0x/n900/neo900 hacking, so I may look into that a bit deeper than "meh, doesn't boot :(" Jul 13 11:34:18 DocScrutinizer05: we can just get certs for every subdomain Jul 13 11:34:40 the startcom CA is in pretty much every modern-ish OS Jul 13 11:34:48 and startssl gives certs for free Jul 13 11:35:11 I did that some 16 months or so ago, those expired and I received bashing why the certs were on *my* name rather than HiFo Jul 13 11:35:50 so I want ** and now it's up to dinnowhom to get new certs Jul 13 11:35:55 went* Jul 13 11:36:40 I really really don't care Jul 13 11:38:06 the signature with the fat red EX- before "admin coordinator" and the "(stepped down due to bullying)" is tehre for a reason Jul 13 12:11:22 https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=maemo.org i didn't even know "T" was a rating Jul 14 02:37:11 stupid question which came up before, how do I select all emails in email? Jul 14 02:37:17 thought it was just Ctrl+a but that's no longer working **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jul 14 02:59:59 2014