**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 28 02:59:58 2015 Sep 28 05:19:29 dont know about best, but try fbreader or coolreader Sep 28 05:35:24 epub reader -- i found dorian to be the best. no bloat Sep 28 05:35:43 better memory management Sep 28 05:41:41 doesnt look bad, pity it has only epub format Sep 28 05:48:54 Sicelo: thanks Sep 28 05:48:58 how about for PDFs? Sep 28 05:49:17 KotCzarny: ok that Sep 28 05:52:36 pdf stock one is fine for most purposes ... can try mupdf for faster rendering, but there's no menu ... ymmv. you can also get evince. those are the ones i've used Sep 28 05:53:44 fbreader can do many formats Sep 28 05:53:56 fb2, html, chm, plucker, palmdoc, ztxt, tcr, rtf, oeb, ePub, pdb, openreader and more Sep 28 05:54:28 hmm Sep 28 05:54:38 misread pdb for pdf hrm Sep 28 05:54:43 oh well Sep 28 05:56:56 yeah, if one needs more than epubs, then they are 'forced' to use fbreaded. looks like the op only needs epub though :) Sep 28 05:57:22 so, dorian and stock pdf reader? Sep 28 05:57:25 and fbreader Sep 28 05:57:29 fbreader has pdf plugin, but i dont know if anyone compiled it for n900 Sep 28 05:58:15 ebzzry: evince or xpdf/poppler for pdfs that stock pdf reader couldnt read (there are some cases) Sep 28 05:58:25 usually those with 'no copy' flag Sep 28 05:58:32 How's the speed of evince? Sep 28 05:58:34 xpdf available for N900? Sep 28 05:58:43 Is evince in testing? Sep 28 05:58:49 sicelo: xpdf is practically poppler Sep 28 05:59:23 i don't remember seeing it in repos .. let me check. on computer i use xpdf a lot Sep 28 05:59:53 no xpdf, but poppler is there Sep 28 06:00:05 wonder whats included in poppler-utils Sep 28 06:00:52 What's the site again for package lookups? Sep 28 06:01:05 that's only what i see .. not poppler by itself Sep 28 06:01:05 ebzzry: apt-cache search somepackagename Sep 28 06:01:14 sicelo: http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/p/poppler/ Sep 28 06:01:16 On WWW Sep 28 06:01:53 KotCzarny: still :) Sep 28 06:02:04 there's no popple in the repos Sep 28 06:02:12 I want to know if evince is in testing or devel Sep 28 06:02:26 poppler-utils contains pdfinfo, pdftops, etc Sep 28 06:02:27 ebzzry: apt-cache search evince Sep 28 06:03:01 evince is in regular repos .. not devel or testing Sep 28 06:03:11 Sicelo: ok Sep 28 06:03:20 Is there a web interface for the packages? Sep 28 06:03:35 ebzzry: depends for which repo Sep 28 06:03:45 ~maemo-pkg Sep 28 06:03:52 ~maemopkg Sep 28 06:04:05 http://maemo.org/downloads/Maemo5/ Sep 28 06:04:06 http://maemo.org/packages/ Sep 28 06:04:15 for extras ones with descriptions Sep 28 06:04:21 There Sep 28 06:04:25 and categorized nicely Sep 28 06:04:29 By the way, what are the implications of having both extras and extras-testing? Can I have just one of them? Sep 28 06:04:50 ebzzry: you can have both, but extras-testing is more raw/untested Sep 28 06:05:00 and usually contains newer versions Sep 28 06:05:16 So extras-testing is a superset of extras? Sep 28 06:05:21 strict superset? Sep 28 06:05:22 Or no? Sep 28 06:05:34 package gets first uploaded (unchecked) to extras-devel, then developer promotes it to extras-testing for testing, then if it gets enough votes it gets into extras Sep 28 06:05:51 ok Sep 28 06:06:24 thats why extras-devel and -testing is virtually raw, ie. can have bad packages Sep 28 06:06:29 Do some of you run Mer? Sep 28 06:06:54 ebzzry: noone, afaik Sep 28 06:06:59 :) Sep 28 06:07:00 o Sep 28 06:07:01 ok Sep 28 06:07:15 it doesn't make sense on n900, compared to Fremantle Sep 28 06:07:19 ok Sep 28 06:07:42 Before I lost my first N900, I heard there was a port of Meego to N900. How did it go? Sep 28 06:08:07 sicelo: compiling xpoppler/xpdf should go clean (because libpoppler-dev is already done) Sep 28 06:08:37 i think so. maybe they had problems with right-click :/ Sep 28 06:08:54 which is used quite extensively in xpdf Sep 28 06:08:56 or they just needed poppler for some other app Sep 28 06:09:18 ebzzry: there still is, but it is unusable for daily usage Sep 28 06:09:29 freemangordon: ok Sep 28 06:10:15 Sicelo: did you read through FB app review process? Sep 28 06:10:39 i did, but got a little confused, then side-tracked Sep 28 06:10:46 let me get back to it again Sep 28 06:10:55 just a little confused? Sep 28 06:10:59 good Sep 28 06:11:34 seems you;re way smarter than me, as I got totally confused :D Sep 28 06:11:44 :) Sep 28 06:12:19 i think this is meant for heavy FB users. i was only using it for keeping in touch via xmpp Sep 28 06:12:27 tech smart but not mublejumblelawtrashtalk smart? Sep 28 06:13:42 Sicelo: evince is reported to be in -devel http://maemo.org/packages/view/evince/ Sep 28 06:13:59 there is also epdfview port Sep 28 06:14:25 (using libpoppler) Sep 28 06:14:37 KotCzarny: no, I regularly pass through some kind of certification process (certifying applications, not myself), and usually the certification docs are over-engineered, but you can get what is expected to be done. not the case with FB docs Sep 28 06:14:51 Sicelo: what is meant for heavy FB users? Sep 28 06:18:01 just people who use many apps that integrate with facebook for example, etc. but yeah, let me get back to the page and hopefully things will make better sense today Sep 28 06:18:24 ok Sep 28 06:35:07 Does anybody know if the emacs at http://maemo.org/packages/view/emacs24/ is optified? Sep 28 06:35:57 download and unpack? Sep 28 06:38:43 KotCzarny: ok Sep 28 06:45:10 What GPS apps do you use? Sep 28 06:46:05 ebzzry: modrana Sep 28 06:46:28 Defiant: why? Sep 28 06:46:36 why not? Sep 28 06:46:59 Why modrana, instead of the other apps? Sep 28 06:47:53 Because modrana does not crash every 10 minutes and has more features then most of the rest Sep 28 06:48:10 ooh and it can use osm and not nokia maps Sep 28 06:48:35 Defiant: thanks Sep 28 06:48:53 Does the modrana in testing and devel have a significant difference? Sep 28 06:49:13 no idea Sep 28 06:49:21 Defiant: ok Sep 28 07:01:34 ebzzry: I use devel one for modrana Sep 28 07:03:02 mm, another fine example of dev pissed with extras/-testing/-devel scheme Sep 28 07:06:42 sixwheeledbeast: ok Sep 28 08:50:26 vote for ipv6 support packages: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1483833&postcount=28 Sep 28 08:52:07 amazing even you have to go through vote system Sep 28 08:52:35 anyway, should i vote without testing? Sep 28 08:52:51 (because i have no ipv6 setup here atm) Sep 28 08:58:15 lol. voting without testing defeats the purpose Sep 28 08:58:34 :) Sep 28 08:58:43 he didnt ask to test and vote, but to vote Sep 28 08:58:53 that's why i'm asking Sep 28 08:59:23 they are in testing since 2013 which pretty much sums up the -testing failage Sep 28 09:03:14 i did test IPv6 on my N900 in the past, through a VPN tunnel Sep 28 09:04:11 ah, so it's not new packages ... i'll vote Sep 28 09:04:33 i still see no use for ipv6 Sep 28 09:05:01 ceene, ipv6 will get there, local ISPs starting to add it to services Sep 28 09:05:26 so they keep saying Sep 28 09:05:37 and it's nice because then most people wont have to pay for external ips Sep 28 09:05:52 (unless they start charging for ipv6, he he) Sep 28 09:05:57 most people don't want external ips Sep 28 09:06:21 ceene, external ip is useful, very useful Sep 28 09:06:32 in fact most people would benefit from being behind a nat that stops attacks and worms and all that Sep 28 09:06:36 maybe for you and for me Sep 28 09:06:45 for the 90% of the population they are more trouble than anything else Sep 28 09:06:58 it frees us from 3rd party server reliance Sep 28 09:07:12 but yes, what you are saying is also true Sep 28 09:07:43 in fact, most 3g connections are through nat Sep 28 09:08:03 and nobody seems to care Sep 28 09:08:24 as long you are just consuming data, yes Sep 28 09:08:36 and that's what most people does :) Sep 28 09:08:39 if you want to do anything more, you see the difference Sep 28 09:08:51 hmm, looks like i never used any of those packages for IPv6 .. did it manually. can't vote. Sep 28 09:09:01 sicelo: :) Sep 28 09:11:10 and that VPN server isn't around anymore .. can't test Sep 28 09:11:40 if you have tunnel account still active you can easily test Sep 28 09:11:54 there are many ipv6 services, www, irc Sep 28 09:12:58 the IPv6 was tunneled. i'll check the other services later Sep 28 09:34:05 ceene: that's terrible Sep 28 09:34:22 we can't have nice things because 90% of the population Sep 28 09:35:09 he didn't say that Sep 28 09:36:53 well thats the most common excuse Sep 28 09:37:00 so common I get annoyed Sep 28 09:37:17 < ceene> in fact most people would benefit from being behind a nat that stops attacks and worms and all that Sep 28 09:37:26 isn't that true? Sep 28 09:37:39 I hope you like staying behind 3 layers of NAT Sep 28 09:37:58 i personally don't like it, but I see how everyone I know benefits from it Sep 28 09:38:30 I remember installing windows on my uni's computers Sep 28 09:38:42 and getting infected with blaster during the installation itself Sep 28 09:38:57 sigh... Sep 28 09:39:06 because thousands of attacks were reaching the new computer public ip address even before it had finished installing Sep 28 09:39:13 now, i know how to solve that Sep 28 09:39:17 go and explain it to my parents Sep 28 09:39:23 thats right, never allow ipv6, ever Sep 28 09:39:28 i'm not saying that at all Sep 28 09:39:36 and i'm not the one who was to allow or disallow it Sep 28 09:39:48 i'm just saying that most people benefit from being behind a nat Sep 28 09:39:57 and? Sep 28 09:40:01 and nothing else Sep 28 09:40:06 why do i have to say anything else? Sep 28 09:40:09 i only say that Sep 28 09:40:18 because that alone implies a lot Sep 28 09:40:33 i don't mind, it's a matter or fact Sep 28 09:40:36 so if your parent's PC gets an ipv6 address Sep 28 09:40:40 now what? Sep 28 09:40:49 now they will be more exposed to viruses and attacks Sep 28 09:40:58 that they don't even know what they are Sep 28 09:41:03 and i will be the one to maintain their pc Sep 28 09:41:12 so the first thing i'd do, will be to setup our home router to do nat :) Sep 28 09:41:26 so your position is to ban ipv6 because 90% of the population is illiterate Sep 28 09:41:35 no, i haven't said that again Sep 28 09:41:40 11:39 < ceene> i'm not saying that at all Sep 28 09:41:40 11:39 < ceene> and i'm not the one who was to allow or disallow it Sep 28 09:41:40 11:39 < ceene> i'm just saying that most people benefit from being behind a nat Sep 28 09:41:43 that's what i said Sep 28 09:41:47 don't put words in my mouth Sep 28 09:42:17 s/who was/who has/g Sep 28 09:42:17 sure, I don't want to play the inquisitor Sep 28 09:42:32 but I fought tooth and nail to get ipv6 from my ISP Sep 28 09:42:47 "oh you won't need it" they say Sep 28 09:43:08 "for your own protection" Sep 28 09:43:15 if you benefit from it that's good and all Sep 28 09:43:23 but not everything that suits you suits everybody Sep 28 09:43:28 i won't fight against ipv6 Sep 28 09:44:07 but if anything happens to pose a threat to my parents computers i'll block it Sep 28 09:44:12 they for sure don't need ipv6 Sep 28 09:44:17 to be honest, they don't even need a computer Sep 28 09:44:29 :) Sep 28 09:44:29 give them an ipad Sep 28 09:44:39 works for my parents Sep 28 09:44:47 my mom likes her android tablet Sep 28 09:44:52 but my dad only likes his laptopt Sep 28 09:44:55 to each their own Sep 28 09:45:23 gotta be going now Sep 28 09:45:24 cya! Sep 28 09:51:17 um Sep 28 09:51:48 but people get infected even behind nat, shall we disallow email/im messages with link and www links in general? Sep 28 09:52:18 we should educate, not nanny them Sep 28 09:53:57 educated is nice Sep 28 09:54:28 unfortunately I don't really see it happening :( Sep 28 09:54:37 not true Sep 28 09:54:44 educate your parents, friends Sep 28 09:54:49 word gets around Sep 28 09:54:57 moin :) Sep 28 09:55:03 it was alien to them Sep 28 09:55:29 too much knowledge at once, teach one thing per session Sep 28 09:55:58 I can't even hold my parent's attention for 5 minutes Sep 28 09:56:23 they'd go off to do their own stuff Sep 28 09:56:38 and/or forget the next day Sep 28 09:56:54 repeat Sep 28 09:57:01 that's how people learn things Sep 28 09:57:19 My 80 years old mum likes only Linux. She struggles with Windows at my sister's place. Sep 28 11:39:19 my n900 sometimes does not recognize its SIM card Sep 28 11:39:21 what can i do? Sep 28 11:40:01 clean contacts Sep 28 11:40:10 replace sim with new one Sep 28 11:40:21 if that's not helping prepare for modem breakdown Sep 28 11:42:10 ime, add two or three pieces of paper. Sep 28 11:42:29 Maybe not three. Sep 28 11:44:33 can't really say that my experience is well-tested though. I just remember having issues with it detecting it the first few times, then added the paper and haven't had it again since (and haven't removed the paper) Sep 28 12:15:03 I can't download any wiktionary dumps for the evopedia anymore. Does anybody have a mirror? Sep 28 14:17:45 .repo Sep 28 14:17:51 ~repo Sep 28 14:18:02 ~repos Sep 28 14:19:04 ~maemo-repos Sep 28 14:19:12 bot rebooting Sep 28 14:19:25 please wait a minute Sep 28 14:20:23 ~wb Sep 28 14:20:24 It's great to be back! Sep 28 14:21:01 ~repos Sep 28 14:21:01 methinks repos is "deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/apps/ ./ ;; deb http://maemo.muarf.org/apt-mirror/mirror/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/mr0/ ./", or see http://wiki.maemo.org/Repository#List_of_Maemo_repositories Sep 28 14:21:53 muarf.org seems to be down also Sep 28 14:23:17 yeah, not responsive at least Sep 28 14:24:41 http:// maemo.linenoise.info/downloads.maemo.nokia.com/fremantle/ssu/apps/ seems to work Sep 28 14:25:44 * DocScrutinizer05 sighs and mumbles "skeiron" Sep 28 22:01:22 can I not use opengl at all on n810? https://wiki.maemo.org/MBX_drivers_status says need driver Sep 28 22:01:51 but specs say it can do 2mil polys a second: http://www.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?contentId=4671&navigationId=11990&templateId=6123 ? Sep 28 22:29:04 Basically there's no usable drivers Sep 28 22:46:31 is there a good short explanation on why the N900 3G is 1700/2100 combo? Sep 28 22:46:49 depends where you bought it probably Sep 28 22:48:18 wikipedia says: GSM 850/900/1800/1900 Sep 28 22:48:24 ahm Sep 28 22:48:25 umts Sep 28 22:49:10 yes, the "3G" UMTS stuff from Tmobile Sep 28 22:49:17 this is a US Market thing Sep 28 22:49:34 yup Sep 28 22:49:44 900/2100 used here Sep 28 22:49:50 except Tmobile never really offered the N900 in the US...? Sep 28 22:50:09 what does the 900/2100 mean? does UMTS require 2 bands to work or? Sep 28 22:50:21 there is also 1700 for japan Sep 28 22:50:25 ecc3g: it was an unlocked user supplied device. Sep 28 22:50:36 ds3: nope, different providers use different bands Sep 28 22:50:50 Tmobile killed 1700/2100 in the SFBay area this weekend Sep 28 22:51:12 but I can get a Tmobile signal (apparently) at 1900 Sep 28 22:51:33 so I am a bit confused as to why that signal is 1 band vs the other having 2 bands Sep 28 22:52:35 KotCzarny: yes, I know that. just donno why it is called out as a dual band thing Sep 28 22:52:55 I was never able to get 3G in palo alto. that was annoying. Sep 28 22:53:00 i mean, some use 900 band, some 2100 Sep 28 22:53:29 ecc3g: close to 101 or close to 280? Sep 28 22:53:38 101 Sep 28 22:53:50 KotCzarny: everything I can find seems to call out 2 numbers at once Sep 28 22:54:13 ecc3g: I get weak 3G all along 101 from Snv to PA Sep 28 22:54:28 <--- not happy, stuck with a Galaxy Nexus Sep 28 22:54:32 actually ECR Sep 28 22:54:40 ECR? Sep 28 22:54:47 El Camino Sep 28 22:55:10 I remember Frys in Palo Alto I got no signal with the n900 Sep 28 22:55:12 no 3g Sep 28 22:55:22 weak 3g in belmont Sep 28 22:55:41 works perfectly in CO Sep 28 22:55:54 (whole 'nother state) Sep 28 22:56:03 Frys in PA is a dead spot for me Sep 28 22:56:16 no 3 or 2G Sep 28 22:56:24 even outside near el camino is bad Sep 28 22:56:41 i guess it's all moot if they cancelled 1700/2100 Sep 28 22:56:49 i hate my android phone Sep 28 22:56:53 *nod* Sep 28 22:57:02 which android phone are you falling back to? Sep 28 22:57:09 zenfone2 Sep 28 22:57:35 use droid as wifispot? Sep 28 22:57:59 I've been trying to carry 2 phones, I dont like it... Sep 28 22:58:28 put it in the backpack? Sep 28 22:58:40 I don't have a backpack... Sep 28 22:58:48 buy one? Sep 28 22:59:12 One backpack for just a phone... yeah... Sep 28 22:59:26 not just for a phone Sep 28 22:59:42 backpack i one of the best inventions Sep 28 22:59:55 I don't have anything else I need to carry... Sep 28 23:00:14 food? Sep 28 23:00:18 drink? Sep 28 23:00:28 ... Sep 28 23:00:53 car battery for emergency power? Sep 28 23:01:13 those 95Ah babies give a long uptime Sep 28 23:01:50 not for the Android crap Sep 28 23:02:06 it is design to unpredictably drain the battery flat Sep 28 23:03:48 I guess I don't use my phone a huge amount, it's usually on standby Sep 28 23:03:59 and my android phone seems to have better standby time now... Sep 28 23:05:08 beware of the android equiv of tracker Sep 28 23:05:24 biggest peice of garbage designed in to android Sep 28 23:05:28 beware of android in general... :( Sep 28 23:05:31 :) Sep 28 23:06:05 Android has negative credibility Sep 28 23:06:31 but radiowise, Android seems to be the only option Sep 28 23:07:04 no one else doing gsm there? Sep 28 23:07:12 for bay area... seems so. Sep 28 23:07:16 GSM/EDGE works Sep 28 23:07:25 but there is a need for data Sep 28 23:07:53 for tethered operation, I much rather revive the N800 Sep 28 23:09:40 but ... the n800 doesn't have a modem Sep 28 23:09:46 or does it? Sep 28 23:09:54 only wifi Sep 28 23:09:57 yeah. Sep 28 23:09:59 and usb host mode Sep 28 23:10:01 :) Sep 28 23:10:09 but that one needs car battery Sep 28 23:10:40 but if you are tethering, it don't matter Sep 28 23:12:20 ShadowJK: well yes, there are not usable drivers for the n810, but what does that mean for an app that uses opengl? Sep 28 23:13:01 ShadowJK: basically I am in the middle of learning SDL and opengl to make some simple games on the n810, but if I can't use opengl at all, then I just need to focus on learning SDL only Sep 28 23:13:23 or finding cheap working n900 Sep 28 23:13:31 I don't really get what happens when your graphics chip doesn't support 2d or 3d accel and you send opengl data to it.... Sep 28 23:13:52 esaym153: in linux you usually end up with software rendering Sep 28 23:14:05 KotCzarny: automaticly? Sep 28 23:14:18 if mesa is installed Sep 28 23:14:23 hmm Sep 28 23:17:43 http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/diablo/free/m/mesa/ Sep 28 23:17:47 someone compiled it Sep 28 23:17:56 dont know how well it works Sep 28 23:18:27 if n810 can't even do 2d accel then that is stupid.... Sep 28 23:18:42 for simple programs its enough i guess Sep 28 23:18:58 install and check mesa demos Sep 29 00:00:19 ds3: don't listen to weitd excplanations, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93095 Sep 29 00:00:34 and the links therein Sep 29 00:04:21 then bash your government for not putting *any* reasonable nationwide regulations into effect. You can use one phone across all europe and it just works. In USA you're lucky when you drive 50 miles and your phone can still do simple emergency calls Sep 29 00:16:38 1700/2100 is a special band dubbed "AWS" and is no special in any way, other bands are e.g. 1800/1850 and are called "1800" Sep 29 00:17:54 well, sorry, no coffee. 1700/2100 is NO special band, just has exceptionally huge difference between upstream and downstream link frequencies Sep 29 00:17:56 reading... Sep 29 00:18:09 Ohhh okay Sep 29 00:18:40 so it is 1700 half duplex, 2100 half duplex (vs 1900 half/1900+dF half)? Sep 29 00:18:54 never go for frequencies, always go for bands, they are unambiguous and clearly specified Sep 29 00:19:12 yes Sep 29 00:20:58 bands are confusing. I like regular engineering descriptions Sep 29 00:21:33 having said that, a simple pentaband radio is what i need, it seems Sep 29 00:29:59 bands are regular engineering descriptions Sep 29 00:41:29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UMTS_frequency_bands Sep 29 00:42:05 as regular and engineering as it gets Sep 29 00:42:24 AWS = band4 Sep 29 00:44:57 actually you'd need band *and* technology (modulation, access protocol FD vs TD, channel width etc) Sep 29 00:45:14 but band anyway is waaay better than 'frequency' Sep 29 00:49:30 compare band1 (dubbed "2100", uplink 1920-80, downlink 2110-70) with band 4 (dubbed 1700/2100, UL 1710 – 1755, DL 2110 – 2155), and band 10 (dubbed 1700, **UPLINK** 1710 – 1770 and **DOWNLINK** - the one usually used to dub the frequency band - is 2110 – 2170) Sep 29 00:51:09 band 25: "1900", UL:1850 – 1915, DL:1930 – 1995 Sep 29 00:51:20 let me clarify what I mean - regular engineer as in general EE, not a mobile telcom engineer Sep 29 00:51:51 the "frequency" nicknames are mostly meaningless and arbitrary Sep 29 00:53:04 KotCzarny what is modem breakdown Sep 29 00:53:07 band 6, 19, 20 are all dubbed "800MHz" though they are NOT compatible Sep 29 00:53:17 Maxdamantus where add the paper? Sep 29 00:53:34 erlehmann: he meant modem chip defect, a known problem of N900 that basically can't get fixed Sep 29 00:53:52 erlehmann: forget about "add paper", it doesn't work Sep 29 00:53:52 DocScrutinizer05 how does it occur? Sep 29 00:54:04 yes, I perfer to be more specific then the names like '800MHz' Sep 29 00:54:36 erlehmann: BGA solder joints popping up when PCB gets bent by pressing on kbd (a sound theory that has no evidence so far) Sep 29 00:55:14 DocScrutinizer05 i had it just disconnect during a call when the phone lied still. Sep 29 00:55:16 if that is the case, why won't a reflow cycle fix it? Sep 29 00:55:18 ds3: so use bands :-) Sep 29 00:55:34 also, opening and closing the phone would re-detect the sim card. Sep 29 00:56:10 erlehmann: the popped-open solder joints make loose connections that break open and re-connect at random Sep 29 00:56:35 you can help it a tad by doing the spring-fix Sep 29 00:56:44 ~spring-fix Sep 29 00:56:49 ~spring Sep 29 00:56:50 hmm Sep 29 00:57:29 DocScrutinizer05 you have a link? Sep 29 00:57:44 ~springfix Sep 29 00:57:44 extra, extra, read all about it, springfix is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1243160#post1243160 and http://www.jabawok.net/?p=14 Sep 29 00:58:58 thx Sep 29 01:28:31 ds3: reflow does work, and I *think* somebody did it. However you know reflow isn't exactly simple, you need to heat up chip *and* PCB to >225° but <250°C for <20s, and you should not do this to camera, and a lot of other components on the board Sep 29 01:29:18 reflow can be done when you know what you're doing, using preheat to maybe 120°C and then hot air reflow station Sep 29 01:29:56 oh well. Sep 29 01:30:00 previously removing or covering with isolating material all the components that don't want a reflow Sep 29 01:31:41 never said it was easy. it just didn't make sense that reflow would not work Sep 29 01:31:56 N900 design has a fundamental flaw here: they shouldn't have placed large BGA chips on opposite PCB surface of kbd Sep 29 01:32:13 nobody said reflow doesn't work Sep 29 01:32:26 epoxy underfill might have helped Sep 29 01:32:35 hmm? where? Sep 29 01:32:41 then I misunderstood someone a while back Sep 29 01:32:44 under the BGA Sep 29 01:32:51 so the balls can't flex with the keyboard Sep 29 01:32:55 that's actually impossible Sep 29 01:33:04 why is it impossible? Sep 29 01:33:17 because there are BGA balls and nothing else Sep 29 01:33:24 let me find the link Sep 29 01:33:59 designing the PCB layout in a smarter way would have helped Sep 29 01:34:22 adding some istance posts to support PCB would have helped Sep 29 01:34:35 epoxy hardly ever helps anywhere in electronics Sep 29 01:34:40 http://www.embedded.com/design/system-integration/4235387/Underfill-revisited--How-a-decades-old-technique-enables-smaller--more-durable-PCBs Sep 29 01:34:45 take a look at that Sep 29 01:35:00 it should address exactly that theory (unless I misunderstood again) Sep 29 01:36:06 again, how would you apply epoxy between the 0.4mm PITCH bga balls? Sep 29 01:36:34 if it is thin enough, it can wick in Sep 29 01:36:43 not even discussing how much weaker such small epoxy joint is compared to a properly soldered BGA solder joint Sep 29 01:36:59 no no Sep 29 01:37:11 it would not replace the solder Sep 29 01:37:23 it would go around the solder replacing the void Sep 29 01:37:36 nobody said "replace". Epoxy usually isn't conductive Sep 29 01:38:11