**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 04 02:59:58 2015
Nov 04 05:40:21 <Maxdamantus> Got the N9 I bought.
Nov 04 05:40:27 <Maxdamantus> seems to be in better condition than I expected.
Nov 04 05:51:57 <jonwil> why would anyone want a N9?
Nov 04 05:52:18 <Maxdamantus> Oksana: I suspect the latter will be a uboot image with that Linux kernel appended.
Nov 04 05:52:35 <Maxdamantus> because extra N900s are harder to find.
Nov 04 05:55:06 <KotCzarny> n9 is a lot different software wise than n900
Nov 04 05:55:35 <Maxdamantus> It still runs Xorg, right?
Nov 04 05:56:16 <KotCzarny> yeah
Nov 04 05:56:19 <KotCzarny> but no gtk
Nov 04 05:56:31 <KotCzarny> only qt and xlib i think
Nov 04 05:57:24 <Maxdamantus> Gtk is normally just a library.
Nov 04 05:57:50 <Maxdamantus> it's not like it's lacking any convenient support for a Gtk service.
Nov 04 05:58:28 <KotCzarny> still, its just showing that it can be different
Nov 04 05:59:09 <Maxdamantus> I don't expect it to be the same. I don't particularly like Maemo either, but it seems preferable over something like Android to me .
Nov 04 05:59:55 <jonwil> I have owned 4 different cell phones in my life and the N900 is the best one I have ever owned
Nov 04 06:00:09 <KotCzarny> :)
Nov 04 06:00:55 <jonwil> A fair few years ago now I did a 6 month student internship with Motorola (basically 6 months of full time paid work that counted as a university course)
Nov 04 06:01:02 <Maxdamantus> N900 is my second one, after some carier-specific phone running some special OS.
Nov 04 06:01:24 <jonwil> My first phone was a Motorola E378i which was a piece of crap.
Nov 04 06:02:02 <jonwil> Then I lost that phone somewhere after only a short amount of time and replaced it with a Motorola L6 which was a little better but still crap.
Nov 04 06:02:40 <jonwil> Both of those were bought outright and used on a prepaid plan
Nov 04 06:03:38 <jonwil> Then quite a while after that I switched carriers to a different carrier on a by-the-month contract and bought a Motorola Z6 linux phone which wasn't the worst thing in the world (especially after some nice hackers found a backdoor in the boot loader that let you replace the kernel and root filesystemwithout failing the signature checks)
Nov 04 06:04:04 <jonwil> Then I got the N900 and have been happy ever since
Nov 04 06:04:36 <jonwil> Other than the USB port problems, the N900 is a surprisingly tough phone
Nov 04 06:05:02 <jonwil> Its landed on the floor more than once (enough to pop off the back cover and even the battery sometimes) but its still going strong
Nov 04 06:06:08 <jonwil> Technically this is my third N900 after the first one was replaced under warranty because the flex cable connecting the multi-color LED and front camera to the main phone part failed and the second one was replaced for the busted USB problem
Nov 04 06:06:12 <Maxdamantus> I've dropped mine on tar-seal road a couple of times.
Nov 04 06:06:29 <jonwil> both of which are manufacturing/design problems rather than failings on my part I suspect
Nov 04 06:06:34 <KotCzarny> mine was dropped hard few times too
Nov 04 06:06:45 <jonwil> why do you need a N9 if you already have a N900?
Nov 04 06:06:58 <Maxdamantus> I soldered the USB port to the motherboard a while ago.
Nov 04 06:07:00 <KotCzarny> i would like n9 (and 770) to port oscp to
Nov 04 06:07:12 <jonwil> fair enough :)
Nov 04 06:07:16 <Maxdamantus> in case I want to experiment with things.
Nov 04 06:07:31 <Maxdamantus> I'm meant to kind of have a phone.
Nov 04 06:07:48 <KotCzarny> also, it can be considered jolla phone
Nov 04 06:08:32 <jonwil> me, I am running all sorts of self-built packages on my phone including my own reverse engineered MCE clone
Nov 04 06:09:01 <Maxdamantus> isn't MCE already open?
Nov 04 06:09:17 <Maxdamantus> I think I modified it to avoid turning the screen on when plugging in USB.
Nov 04 06:09:23 <jonwil> not the N900 version
Nov 04 06:09:30 <Maxdamantus> maybe it was DSME.
Nov 04 06:09:35 <jonwil> DSME is open
Nov 04 06:09:37 <jonwil> MCE wasn't
Nov 04 06:09:43 <jonwil> not until I came up with https://github.com/community-ssu/mce/:)
Nov 04 06:09:49 <jonwil> which btw was a LOT of work
Nov 04 06:10:27 <Maxdamantus> https://gist.github.com/Maxdamantus/d607903103bd63667fee
Nov 04 06:10:46 <Maxdamantus> ah, that is MCE.
Nov 04 06:10:51 <Maxdamantus> It'll be your one then.
Nov 04 06:11:02 <jonwil> yeah probably
Nov 04 06:14:50 <jonwil> Anyhow, I should probably get back to working on libcodelockui :)
Nov 04 06:26:46 <Maxdamantus> I see that the volume controls work while the screen is off by default on the N9.
Nov 04 06:27:01 <KotCzarny> is this clean flash?
Nov 04 06:27:06 <Maxdamantus> No.
Nov 04 06:27:37 <Maxdamantus> I suspect it's almost clean. It looks like the last person did a flash then installed some psm-toggle thing.
Nov 04 06:40:31 <Maxdamantus> The status light on this thing looks like HAL 9000 when it's off.
Nov 04 06:41:33 * jonwil wonders if people appreciate all the reverse engineering work he does for the N900
Nov 04 06:41:45 <jonwil> I am sure they do though :)
Nov 04 06:45:24 * Maxdamantus wonders if he should put a tiny bit of epoxy over the missing corner around the phone jack.
Nov 04 08:09:03 <Sicelo> Maxdamantus: isn't it normal and expected that volume controls should work while screen is off?
Nov 04 08:16:33 <Maxdamantus> Sicelo: apparently not on the N900.
Nov 04 08:16:52 <Maxdamantus> that's an extra configuration option in /etc/dsme.ini or something.
Nov 04 08:17:43 <Sicelo> no. default
Nov 04 08:19:31 <Maxdamantus> Hm?
Nov 04 08:19:48 <Maxdamantus> By default, the keyboard device is disabled when the screen is off.
Nov 04 08:19:49 <bencoh> Sicelo: default when playing music with mediaplayer
Nov 04 08:19:57 <bencoh> (or mafw, dunno)
Nov 04 08:20:07 <Maxdamantus> Ah, maybe that's the case.
Nov 04 08:20:17 * Maxdamantus hasn't used the default music player in a while.
Nov 04 08:20:30 <bencoh> which is a bit annoying for other players
Nov 04 08:20:50 <bencoh> the most annoying thing is the power button "interruption"
Nov 04 08:21:21 <Sicelo> ah. 3rd party player :)
Nov 04 08:21:22 * Maxdamantus never presses the power button.
Nov 04 08:21:27 <Maxdamantus> except when turning it on
Nov 04 08:21:33 <bencoh> when you play something with mplayer/cmus/whatever and press it, music get stucks for a few seconds and system feels slow/unresponsive
Nov 04 08:21:39 <bencoh> I wonder where that comes from
Nov 04 08:22:51 <Maxdamantus> I've always assumed pressing the power button does some sort of temporary freeze of processes it doesn't completely trust or something.
Nov 04 08:23:11 <bencoh> maybe
Nov 04 09:14:44 <Sicelo> bencoh: even in CSSU power button does that?
Nov 04 09:19:52 <bencoh> cssu-stable yes
Nov 04 09:19:58 <bencoh> dont know about others
Nov 04 09:46:16 <Vajb> confirmed with mplayer + cssu-testing
Nov 04 09:46:32 <Vajb> like if i double click power to lock screen
Nov 04 09:46:38 <Vajb> there is slight pause
Nov 04 09:47:07 <Vajb> also if i click it to see time same thing happens
Nov 04 09:48:22 <Vajb> time well spent yesterday. I looked everywhere and cuoldn't pinpoint exactly what makes that task switcher icon appear in top left corner.
Nov 04 09:49:35 <Vajb> next thing to do will be to compare with other device to see if maemeego does some other magic than just to lose image.
Nov 04 09:50:02 <Vajb> but i suppose it just replaces image with black box sort of
Nov 04 09:50:19 <Vajb> would match with behaviour at least.
Nov 04 09:53:24 <bencoh> probably yes
Nov 04 09:54:28 <Sicelo> you're really serious about this :)
Nov 04 09:55:37 <Sicelo> by the way, after you succeed, how  do you plan on getting into the application list?
Nov 04 10:15:16 <jonwil> The button in question is rendered by hildon-desktop FYI
Nov 04 10:17:16 <jonwil> probably hd-title-bar.c is what is drawing it
Nov 04 10:17:26 <jonwil> But yeah again removing it is totally stupid
Nov 04 10:19:07 <bencoh> jonwil: by the way, sure we do (appreciate)
Nov 04 12:00:08 <Sicelo> for the life of me, i can't find a working tutorial for flashplayer 10 on n900 ... i need it for my 2nd device
Nov 04 12:18:57 <Vajb> Sicelo: im speaking of task manager button not application list.
Nov 04 12:31:09 <bencoh> Sicelo: iirc it was just a matter of downloading flash10 (for harmattan?) and hexedit it
Nov 04 12:31:19 <bencoh> I think there is a tmo post
Nov 04 12:31:23 <bencoh> ~flash10
Nov 04 12:31:26 <bencoh> ~flash
Nov 04 12:31:27 <infobot> [maemo-flashing] http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware, or - on linux PC - download&extract http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir.tgz, cd into it, do sudo ./flash-it-all.sh
Nov 04 12:31:33 <bencoh> meh :)
Nov 04 12:37:56 <Sicelo> haha
Nov 04 12:38:04 <Sicelo> not reflashing :p
Nov 04 12:48:16 <bencoh> ~flashplayer
Nov 04 12:48:17 <infobot> somebody said flashplayer was http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=1295928&postcount=2268
Nov 04 12:50:11 <Sicelo> thanks. got to it from another angle ;)
Nov 04 12:56:08 <Sicelo> this link seems better.
Nov 04 12:58:21 <Sicelo> um .. download link seems dead. or i have to create ubuntu one account?
Nov 04 13:00:38 <Sicelo> ah, lol. ubuntu one closed.
Nov 04 13:01:20 <Oksanaa> ;-) Cloud may be the future, but it's not a bright one
Nov 04 13:02:46 <Sohil876> Cloud is too early imho.
Nov 04 13:07:29 <Sicelo> :)
Nov 04 13:07:40 <Sicelo> the sun & wind drives cloud away
Nov 04 13:08:48 <Sicelo> anyway, got the file in my other n900 :)
Nov 04 13:10:10 <klopsi-u3> thanks to transflective screen, n900 is readable in full sun
Nov 04 13:10:43 <Oksanaa> :-D And so is Neo900, or will be
Nov 04 13:13:49 <Oksanaa> By the way, how is Deutsche Bank? I heard about lay-offs or something?
Nov 04 13:14:27 <klopsi-u3> hard times
Nov 04 13:33:05 <bencoh> Sicelo: I think I found the .deb with some google-fuu
Nov 04 13:33:35 <Sicelo> bencoh: pm? :)
Nov 04 13:34:43 <bencoh> err, not sure I have it around here
Nov 04 13:36:26 <Sicelo> thought you meant now
Nov 04 13:40:33 <bencoh> hmmm, looks like I have 10-1 on my n900
Nov 04 13:40:51 <bencoh> (installed, couldnt find the package on it)
Nov 04 13:43:29 <Sicelo> i have the file bencoh. thanks. had a copy of the 10-1 deb on my main N900
Nov 04 13:52:33 <bencoh> :)
Nov 04 14:02:58 <Sicelo> i just want to 'speedtest' my mobile network ... somehow i have 300MB expiring in a few hours that i wasn't aware of all along
Nov 04 14:03:51 <Sicelo> can't think what else to do with this data
Nov 04 15:50:35 <txt-file> Sicelo, torrent!!! :-D
Nov 04 18:21:52 <Vajb> hmm tried find to find hd-title-bar.c, but it says it doesn't excist
Nov 04 18:29:38 <bencoh> Vajb: hildon-desktop/src/home/hd-title-bar.c
Nov 04 20:15:51 <drozdziak1> Hi guys, is there any reasonable distro to use on N900 instead of Maemo? I mean, with an ability for making calls and texting? (The #n900 channel didn't answer my question, neither did googling it)
Nov 04 20:17:12 <Sicelo> no
Nov 04 20:17:19 <Sicelo> what's wrong with Maemo?
Nov 04 20:18:06 <drozdziak1> Virtually nothing. I'm just thinking about finally buying an N900
Nov 04 20:18:10 <Sicelo> likely in the near future all distros that support ARM will do what you want ... but as of yet, none other
Nov 04 20:18:19 <Sicelo> enjoy Maemo :)
Nov 04 20:18:55 <drozdziak1> Is it because of lack of documentation for hardware?
Nov 04 20:18:56 <Sicelo> it's not as 'stale' as you may think .. still a few devs keeping it as fresh as circumstances allow
Nov 04 20:19:41 <drozdziak1> Yes, I do realise that, there's still a market for new units in my country. It's just its specs are a bit outdated for the present standards.
Nov 04 20:19:58 <Sicelo> drozdziak1: i don't think you've seen a phone that works 100% with 'standard' linux distros .. (except maybe ubuntu phone? not sure)
Nov 04 20:20:55 <drozdziak1> Sicelo: You mean some N900's ability to do that?
Nov 04 20:21:12 <Sicelo> no
Nov 04 20:21:14 <drozdziak1> Or the lack of it being indifferent?
Nov 04 20:22:32 <bencoh> well, actually, you might be able to place calls and a few other things, but nothing out of the box
Nov 04 20:22:37 <bencoh> and you wont get any clean UI
Nov 04 20:22:45 <Sicelo> drozdziak1: gfx drivers for example are closed source. modem 'speaks' in a way that needs some special closed-source nokia binaries .. which means and depends on particular kernel
Nov 04 20:22:51 <bencoh> (unless you start working on it)
Nov 04 20:23:05 <Sicelo> bencoh: aiui that's still future :) do you know a way currently? to call?
Nov 04 20:23:22 <drozdziak1> I see, that makes a lot of sense. 
Nov 04 20:24:03 <drozdziak1> I wonder, why can't someone for once make a device that's fully hackable? Just. Once.
Nov 04 20:24:12 <bencoh> Sicelo: nemo is able to do it with opensource parts; as for kernel, required drivers have been merged
Nov 04 20:24:36 <Sicelo> not really opensource parts, iirc. 
Nov 04 20:24:59 <bencoh> nemo? fully opensource apart from battery/bme iirc
Nov 04 20:25:35 <bencoh> unfortunately they dropped n900 support and went full wayland
Nov 04 20:25:38 <Sicelo> hmm, :-/ i don't remember that
Nov 04 20:26:32 <Sicelo> i know skry made a lot of progress with Arch, but even he ended up abandoning it.
Nov 04 20:27:17 <bencoh> and even before that, they started releasing some new UI that just feels dead slow on n900 and is half-incomplete
Nov 04 20:28:08 <bencoh> worst thing is they removed a lot of working images, and the few still lying around aren't too great
Nov 04 20:28:14 <bencoh> (some of them work, kindof)
Nov 04 20:28:25 <Sicelo> ui is not too big problem though. when i played with debian i didn't mind sending sms via ofono scripts, or connecting to 3g that way
Nov 04 20:28:52 <Sicelo> i should look where my nemo images are. but nemo was also stuck on 2.6.37 kernel, was it not?
Nov 04 20:29:00 <bencoh> probably
Nov 04 20:29:43 <Sicelo> that's what i remember. in fact, the rescueos kernel was based on nemos :)
Nov 04 20:29:50 <bencoh> I dunno which modem/voice kernel driver it used, but if it's the same as in maemo (or close enough) then their ofono/pulseaudio setup might work on debian with latest (4.3) kernel
Nov 04 20:30:45 <bencoh> (or a kernel built from pali's or sre's tree, whichever works best)
Nov 04 20:31:32 <bencoh> Sicelo: https://lwn.net/Articles/635328/
Nov 04 20:32:03 <Sicelo> yes, know that one. spoke to sre while he worked on it
Nov 04 20:32:33 <Sicelo> i seem to think something is still missing .. maybe i should play with debian again :)
Nov 04 20:32:58 <bencoh> I wonder what he's running on his daily n900 (if he still has one as a daily phone)
Nov 04 20:33:24 <Sicelo> last it was maemo :p actually he's generally online via xmpp with it
Nov 04 20:34:25 <bencoh> ah
Nov 04 20:34:41 <bencoh> do we have a maemo xmpp mux?
Nov 04 20:35:10 <Sicelo> MUC, you mean? i don't believe so
Nov 04 20:35:55 <bencoh> muc* yeah
Nov 04 20:35:57 <Sicelo> sre used to hangout on OFTC, but seems he left IRC, or at least not so active there anymore
Nov 04 20:38:34 <Sicelo009N> hmm, so you are right after all bencoh :)
Nov 04 20:39:20 <Sicelo009N> partially. The debian kernel has not yet enabled the config option (there is a debian bug for that)
Nov 04 20:39:30 <Sicelo009N> but the mainline kernel contains all required bits
Nov 04 20:39:35 <Sicelo009N> that's sre ^^
Nov 04 20:39:48 <Sicelo009N> so far I only got the downlink direction working (from extern phone to n900), but thats a userland problem
Nov 04 20:40:49 <bencoh> did you just try placing a call?
Nov 04 20:41:32 <Sicelo> no. i don't even have any 4.x kernel here .. i'm pasting what he has said just now
Nov 04 20:42:04 <Sicelo> so problem is in debian, ... meaning other distros may be fine.
Nov 04 20:42:17 <Sicelo> guess it's time to finally use my other N900
Nov 04 20:42:53 <bencoh> ah
Nov 04 20:42:57 <Sicelo> https://lists.debian.org/debian-kernel/2015/07/msg00079.html <<-- debian 'bug'
Nov 04 20:43:07 <bencoh> well, building a kernel on debian isn't that hard :)
Nov 04 20:43:16 <Sicelo> yeah
Nov 04 20:44:11 * Sicelo wonders where skry went off to .. he'd be happy man now
Nov 04 20:44:23 <bencoh> ^^
Nov 04 20:44:35 <bencoh> I really should get a second n900
Nov 04 20:45:18 <Sicelo> you have no other device even?
Nov 04 20:45:27 <Sicelo> dumb phone, etc.?
Nov 04 20:46:10 <bencoh> I do have some dump phone
Nov 04 20:46:17 <Sicelo> i did all my nemo/arch/debian/etc. experiments on my only N900 (at the time) which was also my main phone :)
Nov 04 20:46:27 <Sicelo> risky, i know, but i had no choice
Nov 04 20:47:05 <Sicelo> only stopped when my USB broke, and i got lazy thereafter. since 2nd N900 arrived, i have done nothing. it's just a backup N900
Nov 04 20:47:18 <bencoh> playing with maemo userland is mostly fine (unless you break essential stuff - and you're good for a rescueOS round), but fiddling with other distros is ... meh :)
Nov 04 20:47:37 <bencoh> keep inserting/removing the microsd
Nov 04 20:47:57 <Sicelo> i made a partition off mmc at the time :p
Nov 04 20:48:10 <bencoh> haha
Nov 04 20:48:12 <bencoh> noway :-)
Nov 04 20:48:29 <Sicelo> yup. couldn't get a quality microsd
Nov 04 20:52:19 <Sicelo009N> anyway, so i was spreading fud. drozdziak1 seems you might be able to get your calls in other distro now :)
Nov 04 20:53:14 <bencoh> but still not out of the box and with some work (especially if you want a GUI)
Nov 04 20:53:44 <Sicelo> of course. but i guess someone fiddling with other distros should expect to work hard :p
Nov 04 20:54:26 <Sicelo> once i broke something in the N900, and maemo could no longer create /dev nodes. i almost reflashed
Nov 04 20:54:45 <Sicelo> *broke something while playing with debian..
Nov 04 20:57:19 <Sicelo> bencoh: seems XMPP is 'dead' as far as user numbers are concerned
Nov 04 20:58:33 <Sicelo> tbh, i hate how browsers have taken over the computing world. gone are the days of RSS client, telnet client, IRC client, etc. webchat, google reader, etc. :(
Nov 04 21:01:06 <Sicelo> of course it's because this helps user not configure anything, and is one of the reasons why whatsapp and friends are so pervasive.
Nov 04 21:20:47 <drozdziak1> Sicelo009N: That's great! :) Gotta go, see you all around, I guess.
Nov 04 23:16:15 <jonwil> hi