**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 08 02:59:58 2016
May 08 13:24:42 <Linkandzelda> is python 2.5 the only version i can use for maemo dev?
May 08 13:41:24 <bencoh> we have some higher versions in extras-devel, but ....
May 08 13:55:23 <DocScrutinizer05> random systemd bugreport: running a cronjob for user XY *creates* a stale symlink ~XY/.local/share/systemd/user
May 08 13:56:55 <DocScrutinizer05> now figure this cronjob was a rsync job doing a sync of the user's homedir, where the user is only owning this shared dir and not supposed to ever log in interactively
May 08 13:57:51 <DocScrutinizer05> WTF systemd??!!
May 08 14:03:22 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/48973407
May 08 14:06:27 <Sicelo> it would apppear that all distributions will go systemd eventually, except may be those designed particularly against it (e.g. Devuan)
May 08 14:15:35 <KotCzarny> or where maintainers arent 'everyone is doing it so we must do it too'-drones
May 08 14:15:50 <KotCzarny> but keeping to 'do one thing, but do it perfect'
May 08 14:25:27 <Sicelo> maybe someone has to make a fork that gets the best bits of systemd, and the best of sysv :)
May 08 14:30:13 <KotCzarny> erm, and which are the 'best bits' ?
May 08 14:31:38 <KotCzarny> remember, if you simply want your os to boot quick, then disable unneeded services and enable parallel booting, or just use tux-on-ice (also known as swsusp2) it's that simple
May 08 14:32:15 <KotCzarny> otherwise it's just overcomplicating things that are simple into abomination taking over your system
May 08 14:49:27 <DocScrutinizer05> aka Devuan
May 08 14:50:33 <DocScrutinizer05> [2016-05-08 Sun 14:42:31] <nextime> it isn't us blocking systemd, is systemd blocking us to adopt it :)
May 08 14:51:32 <kerio> how often are you booting your fucking computer that makes boot time such an issue
May 08 14:51:47 <kerio> maybe you should work on the cause of your constant reboots
May 08 14:52:13 <kerio> like the fact that you can't fucking restart dbus-daemon
May 08 14:52:20 <kerio> because otherwise you need to restart everything that uses it
May 08 14:52:21 <KotCzarny> i reboot my n900 usually after every few battery empty messages
May 08 14:55:24 <kerio> btw can someone explain to me why it's so hard to get a tarball of an installed linux system
May 08 14:55:40 <KotCzarny> because uboot?
May 08 14:55:49 <kerio> no no, an amd64 install
May 08 14:56:42 <KotCzarny> just grab longsleep bare image
May 08 14:57:01 * DocScrutinizer05 frowns at kerio and suspects he's talking to an invisible (to DocScrutinizer05) source
May 08 14:57:15 <kerio> i'm talking to myself
May 08 14:57:19 <kerio> i've been spoiled by freebsd
May 08 14:58:08 <DocScrutinizer05> so lemme answer: *I* am booting my fscking computer maybe 2 to 3 times a year, and boot time is a total non-issue to me
May 08 14:58:20 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: indeed
May 08 14:58:41 <KotCzarny> ahm, amd64, not arm64.
May 08 14:58:41 <kerio> like, i understand that maybe it's a bit more of an issue for embedded
May 08 14:58:44 <kerio> but...
May 08 14:58:48 <DocScrutinizer05> actually servers see reboots less frequently
May 08 14:59:08 <kerio> servers aren't rebooted nearly often enough
May 08 14:59:37 <kerio> uptime is a measure of how unsure you are that everything will start up properly :>
May 08 15:00:01 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm  up 44 days 15:43 - seems I has a kernel update, the only legitimate reason for a reboot
May 08 15:00:23 <kerio> but still, is sync boot really much slower than the sort of async crap that upstart/systemd do, especially on a single-core machine?
May 08 15:00:52 <KotCzarny> kerio: some startup scripts have sleep commands in them
May 08 15:01:07 <KotCzarny> thats why its so slow on sync boot
May 08 15:01:07 <DocScrutinizer05> I dunno, my sysv-init did async startup since ages
May 08 15:01:40 <DocScrutinizer05> at least as option, which I never cared about
May 08 15:01:49 <DocScrutinizer05> so I can't even tell if it been used or not
May 08 15:02:03 <kerio> anyway, my question stands
May 08 15:02:29 <kerio> why can't i just download "the debian tarball" and unpack it in a directory to have a complete rootfs
May 08 15:02:44 <KotCzarny> also, it seems that systemd is just a disease introduced as a cure-it-all pill
May 08 15:02:58 <DocScrutinizer05> umm, you're sort of doing this for maemo
May 08 15:03:14 <KotCzarny> kerio, because updates
May 08 15:03:35 <DocScrutinizer05> as well as a huge number of other embedded devices
May 08 15:03:42 <KotCzarny> and because netinstall
May 08 15:03:55 <KotCzarny> also because modularity
May 08 15:03:57 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: freebsd does it for i386 and amd64
May 08 15:05:24 <DocScrutinizer05> yast (Opensuse) basically also does it for a number of defined default configs, then applying deltas on top of that to exactly match your individual setup
May 08 15:06:03 <kerio> "basically" is what upsets me
May 08 15:06:20 <DocScrutinizer05> basically each .rpm and .deb is a tarball
May 08 15:06:21 <kerio> debian is also "basically" doing that, if by "basically" you mean that the base system is a huge amount of udebs
May 08 15:06:24 <KotCzarny> kerio, but you are overcomplicating
May 08 15:06:32 <KotCzarny> just install one susyem
May 08 15:06:34 <KotCzarny> system
May 08 15:06:40 <KotCzarny> then tar and untar on another machine. done
May 08 15:07:02 <DocScrutinizer05> it's just about granularity of config you can have
May 08 15:07:12 <KotCzarny> but i prefer rsync over tar
May 08 15:08:09 <kerio> KotCzarny: https://download.freebsd.org/ftp/releases/amd64/10.3-RELEASE/
May 08 15:08:20 <DocScrutinizer05> you're asking for (A B B D E F), standard is (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F), and e.g. Suse does (ABCDE) (F)
May 08 15:08:22 <kerio> base.txz is literally a tarball of the freebsd /
May 08 15:08:43 <DocScrutinizer05> s/A B B/A B C/
May 08 15:08:44 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: you're asking for (A B C D E F), standard is (A) (B) (C) (D) (E) (F), and e.g. Suse does (ABCDE) (F)
May 08 15:08:52 <Sicelo> containing which packages? 
May 08 15:09:03 <kerio> base isn't packaged
May 08 15:09:59 <DocScrutinizer05> Suse even might do (ABCDEFG) - (G)
May 08 15:10:03 <ceene> i've installed debian many times on a virtual machine just to tar the whole rootfs and install that on a slower machine, or a machine with bad connectivity
May 08 15:10:16 <KotCzarny> yup
May 08 15:10:26 <KotCzarny> i do the same if i get new machine
May 08 15:10:34 <KotCzarny> just rsync os without /home
May 08 15:10:59 <KotCzarny> (regenerating keys etc later)
May 08 15:11:21 <DocScrutinizer05> I think live DVDs do a simple copy instead of tarball extract
May 08 15:12:10 <DocScrutinizer05> when you use the "install this Live system as permanent OS" feature
May 08 15:12:45 <DocScrutinizer05> afk, sorry
May 08 15:17:02 <kerio> also, why the hell doesn't linux ps support "d"
May 08 15:20:24 <KotCzarny> # ps  d
May 08 15:20:25 <KotCzarny> error: unsupported option (BSD syntax)
May 08 15:20:26 <KotCzarny> lol
May 08 15:20:37 <KotCzarny> it refuses to support it ;)
May 08 15:21:10 <kerio> like
May 08 15:21:17 <kerio> you've got a thing that outputs a list of processes
May 08 15:21:23 <kerio> it doesn't seem farfetched to add a tree view to it
May 08 15:21:28 <kerio> instead of requiring a separate program
May 08 15:21:58 <KotCzarny>  To print a process tree:
May 08 15:21:59 <KotCzarny>           ps -ejH
May 08 15:21:59 <KotCzarny>           ps axjf
May 08 15:23:00 <ceene> ps faux
May 08 15:23:11 <ceene> is the one i like
May 08 15:23:51 <KotCzarny> i usually use: ps axwwu
May 08 15:24:37 <kerio> ps auxwwdJ0
May 08 15:24:44 <kerio> because otherwise there's way too much crap
May 08 16:30:43 <Vajb_> question about jabber. In which server i should register? Newest or closest or totally irrelevant?
May 08 16:31:05 <KotCzarny> why not both?
May 08 16:32:30 <Vajb_> well it seems im not too familiar of how it works...
May 08 16:33:12 <Vajb_> i thought it is like facebook or something that there is only one place to register etc
May 08 16:33:40 <KotCzarny> i think its more like local server hubs talking to each other
May 08 16:33:49 <KotCzarny> ie. kind of irc structure
May 08 16:34:13 <Sicelo> you need only register on one server, and yes, irc is the best analogy
May 08 16:34:29 <KotCzarny> you can even have own server
May 08 16:35:12 <Vajb_> but they are all connected to each others?
May 08 16:35:16 <Sicelo> you will be able to talk to people on other servers, unless one of the involved servers is private
May 08 16:35:23 <KotCzarny> you have id@domain right?
May 08 16:35:30 <KotCzarny> domain part is the id of the server
May 08 16:35:41 <KotCzarny> and they can connect users together if needed
May 08 16:36:26 <KotCzarny> pick the one you trust
May 08 16:36:27 <Vajb_> and how do i tell my whatsapp friends what to do if there is too many choices :p
May 08 16:36:37 <KotCzarny> see id@domain part
May 08 16:37:17 <Vajb_> ah that'll be "me" shown to them? 
May 08 16:37:26 <Sicelo> KotCzarny: if they are on completely different domain, Vajb_ can talk to them
May 08 16:37:29 <Vajb_> i guess i'll go by newest software
May 08 16:37:59 <Sicelo> jabber/xmpp is federated, unless someone has explicitylt decided to make their server private
May 08 16:37:59 <Vajb_> plus security grade
May 08 16:38:14 <KotCzarny> sicelo, yes, that's what i meant 'servers talking to each other by domain'
May 08 16:39:18 <KotCzarny> also, google talk is also using xmpp/jabber network
May 08 16:39:56 <Sicelo> not anymore. they went private
May 08 16:40:02 <KotCzarny> ahm, pity
May 08 16:40:28 <Vajb_> yes i was thinking of google talk as alternative
May 08 16:40:41 <Vajb_> but thought it wont work because google
May 08 16:40:54 <Sicelo> facebook was also standard xmpp, decided to go proprietary too
May 08 16:41:31 <Sicelo> Vajb_: try google .. it works for some, but you have to ensure you add your friends, particularly if they are on android/hangouts
May 08 16:41:59 <Vajb_> well rather not
May 08 16:42:16 <Vajb_> im looking for alternative for longer time
May 08 16:42:32 <Sicelo> IRC :)
May 08 16:42:42 <Vajb_> if it is owned by some big blahblah u never know...
May 08 16:42:54 <Vajb_> no irssi for android :(
May 08 16:43:00 <KotCzarny> vajb: not true
May 08 16:43:19 <KotCzarny> if you root your device you can ssh to it and run on screen
May 08 16:43:20 <KotCzarny> ;)
May 08 16:43:24 <Sicelo> lol? why irssi?
May 08 16:43:30 <Vajb_> well wasn't visible in galaxy apps when my gf checked
May 08 16:43:33 <Sicelo> there are many irc clients for them
May 08 16:43:45 <KotCzarny> but it wont be battery friendly for sure
May 08 16:43:59 <KotCzarny> your best bet is to use mosh + irssi on screen somehwere
May 08 16:44:13 <Vajb_> yeah i guess some im client is better
May 08 16:44:20 <Sicelo> i don't even get why it has to be irssi?
May 08 16:45:07 * Sicelo started IRC with jmIrc on Nokia dumb phone
May 08 16:45:08 <Vajb_> well it is just something i trust :)
May 08 16:45:25 <KotCzarny> vajb, irssi, bitchx, epic
May 08 16:45:32 <KotCzarny> depends on your initial poison
May 08 17:33:20 <DocScrutinizer05> IRC has webchat :-)
May 08 17:34:06 <DocScrutinizer05> so literally everybody can use it, as long as you got a browser that can do what the webchat needs
May 08 17:34:53 <DocScrutinizer05> also creating multiuser chats is as simple as it gets: just join a random channel of your choice
May 08 17:36:19 <DocScrutinizer05> invite people: send http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=ourleetechannel
May 08 17:37:27 <DocScrutinizer05> really convincing people never been simpler
May 08 17:38:49 <DocScrutinizer05> no strings attached
May 08 17:39:54 <DocScrutinizer05> on N900 you're free to use a decen IRC client like xchat
May 08 17:41:41 <kerio> "good" LUL
May 08 17:42:13 <DocScrutinizer05> o.O ?
May 08 18:06:55 <joga> shell irc: still Just Works, unlike any of the other so-called better IM solutions :p
May 08 18:07:15 <joga> if I had an android/iphone I'd try Signal perhaps
May 08 18:07:36 <joga> with friends/family or so, but it's not the same anyway as irc
May 08 19:01:05 <Vajb_> well i ended up registering at chinwag
May 08 22:13:56 <Linkandzelda> how easy is it to take apart n900 and swap the screen?
May 08 22:22:25 <Sicelo> easy .. depends on you really (and tools) :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon May 09 02:59:59 2016