**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May 18 02:59:58 2016
May 18 07:43:33 <totalizator> oh gosh https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/3053711
May 18 07:43:45 <totalizator> see the Resolution
May 18 07:44:51 <kerio> the Resolution is to use windows 10
May 18 07:53:43 <Juest> Worst. Resolution. Ever!
May 18 07:54:44 <Juest> lololol, task scheduler, funny bug and wnidows 10 kernel uses a LOT of disk!
May 18 07:54:57 <Juest> uhh wtf
May 18 07:55:05 <Juest> yeah, dont use the ovbious
May 18 07:55:07 <Juest> lol
May 18 07:55:27 <Juest> never mind and sorry for the noise
May 18 10:23:05 <kerio> Pali: does your bq24k module actually charge at 1.8A
May 18 10:23:11 <kerio> i thought the limit was closer to 1A
May 18 10:23:31 <Pali> kerio: you can tell hw current limit
May 18 10:23:42 <Pali> and my bq module exports it via sysfs
May 18 10:23:56 <kerio> yeah but why is "dedicated" 1800 :(
May 18 10:23:58 <Pali> for wallchager is current limit something like unlimited (or upper limit)
May 18 10:24:03 <kerio> oh i see
May 18 10:24:22 <kerio> but the actual charging system will only charge at at most what the charging current for a near empty battery is?
May 18 10:24:50 <Pali> do not remember
May 18 10:24:54 <Pali> maybe ask doc
May 18 10:25:09 <Pali> at least with bq module you have full control of it
May 18 10:25:27 <Pali> so you can re-configure it with your own settings (if for some reason needed)
May 18 10:26:00 <kerio> dedicated charging from usb port
May 18 10:26:05 <kerio> #yolo
May 18 10:31:38 <DocScrutinizer05> WUT? 18ßß? 
May 18 10:31:44 <DocScrutinizer05> 1800
May 18 10:31:45 <kerio> yes, 18ssss
May 18 10:31:52 <kerio> i assume it's "no limit"
May 18 10:32:59 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm realy too lazy to get out the bq24150 DS now, but I doubt it has a 1800 setting
May 18 10:35:58 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: anyway there's USB limit, and charging current. They are only loosely related
May 18 11:23:13 <kerio> oh rofl
May 18 11:23:29 <kerio> setting the charging mode to dedicated keeps the blinking led even when the cable is detached
May 18 11:24:08 <kerio> oh ok it updated a bit later
May 18 12:38:50 <bencoh> 1800mA, really?
May 18 12:39:48 <kerio> oh bonus of using dedicated mode
May 18 12:39:58 <kerio> the screen doesn't light up when connecting or detaching the cable
May 18 12:40:00 <kerio> for some reason
May 18 12:44:47 <capitanocrunch> hi
May 18 12:45:10 <kerio> anyway, i pulled out a ludicrous amount of lint and dust from the musb connector
May 18 12:45:16 <kerio> now it works much better ^-^
May 18 12:46:21 <DocScrutinizer05> \o/
May 18 12:46:33 <capitanocrunch> i just noticed the navit team uploaded a new version of navit on maemo repos (they managed to use cmake to compile it)
May 18 12:46:59 <DocScrutinizer05> wow
May 18 12:47:52 <capitanocrunch> but then they stop to push updates...
May 18 12:48:18 <capitanocrunch> how can we pull the source via git or similar?
May 18 13:28:59 <ceene> someone knows how to define an SPI flash on the device tree?
May 18 13:29:24 <ceene> i can't get this thing to recognize my flash chip
May 18 13:29:48 <Sicelo> Pali is your friend with that :p
May 18 13:34:45 <KotCzarny> kerio: 1.8A is the microusb connector limit
May 18 13:35:07 <KotCzarny> even if you connect bigger powersource its just too small to flow through
May 18 13:46:23 <ceene> i got it!
May 18 13:46:24 <ceene> :)
May 18 13:46:39 <ceene> mtd0: 01000000 00010000 "spi32766.0"
May 18 13:49:36 <ceene> i don't know where that name comes from, though
May 18 13:55:29 <ceene> mtd0: 01000000 00010000 "spi1.0"                                                                                                                                                                                    
May 18 13:55:33 <ceene> that's better now
May 18 14:07:16 <ceene> ok, but where are my partitions?
May 18 14:29:19 <ceene> dev:    size   erasesize  name                                                                                                                                                                                      
May 18 14:29:22 <ceene> mtd0: 00000100 00010000 "bitfile"                                                                                                                                                                                   
May 18 14:29:27 <ceene> mtd1: 00000100 00010000 "kernel"                                                                                                                                                                                    
May 18 14:29:31 <ceene> mtd2: 00000100 00010000 "rootfs"                                                                                                                                                                                    
May 18 14:29:35 <ceene> mtd3: 00000100 00010000 "calibration"                                                                                                                                                                               
May 18 14:29:39 <ceene> cool!
May 18 14:29:39 <ceene> didn't mean to fill this out, only showing my happiness :P
May 18 14:29:41 <ceene> ups
May 18 14:32:14 <kerio> KotCzarny: is that a fact of life or a challenge?
May 18 15:51:25 <DocScrutinizer05> https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/16/05/18/1357218/nokia-announces-return-to-smartphone-tablet-markets
May 18 15:56:26 <Sicelo> with Android in tow .. anyway, here's to hoping they eventually do even better
May 18 16:13:16 <sunshavi> Sicelo: then waiting 4 smth better than the pyra ;)
May 18 16:14:15 <Sicelo> i'd love either Pyra or Neo900. i'd choose those any day
May 18 16:14:25 <Sicelo> but both are above my pay grade :)
May 18 16:15:04 <sunshavi> in the stmt they say: focus on Android. So It is more of the same. Android does not fill the cup
May 18 16:16:24 <Sicelo> otoh, i'm sure Nokia will get enough market share .. people, particularly here in Africa, still believe in Nokia
May 18 16:16:55 <Sicelo> mobile phone is synonymous with the word "Nokia" here, even though Samsung and Apple have their place
May 18 16:17:01 <sunshavi> Nokia is an strong brand
May 18 16:18:35 <sunshavi> wondering if Pyra is going to beat neon900 on getting first to the market
May 18 16:18:41 <Sicelo> it will
May 18 16:24:17 <KotCzarny> kerio: both
May 18 16:25:37 <DocScrutinizer05> it definitely will
May 18 16:26:29 <DocScrutinizer05> Nikolaus postponed Neo900 in favor of Pyra which has venture capital to do R&D
May 18 16:27:11 <kerio> :(
May 18 16:27:11 <DocScrutinizer05> however Pyra is no phone, I wouldn't want to use it as one at least
May 18 16:27:20 <Venemo> hey guys
May 18 16:27:28 <DocScrutinizer05> hey!
May 18 16:27:28 <kerio> will the mobile version actually be able to place calls
May 18 16:27:29 <Venemo> I'm surprised to see this channel still exists :)
May 18 16:27:31 <kerio> or will it only do data?
May 18 16:28:13 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: it's supposed to be able to place calls. Standby and inbound calls is a completely different topic though
May 18 16:28:29 <Sicelo> Venemo: hi :)
May 18 16:28:41 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: loooong time no see
May 18 16:29:00 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: too long!
May 18 16:29:10 <Venemo> I decided to revive my old N900
May 18 16:30:02 <Venemo> bought a new battery today, but the USB connector broke out years ago
May 18 16:30:14 <Venemo> I still have it, just need to figure out whether it is possible to solder it back
May 18 16:30:20 <Sicelo>  it should be
May 18 16:31:32 <Venemo> I've never taken the device apart
May 18 16:32:02 <Venemo> found a handy video on youtube, so maybe I'll do it tomorrow in the lab :)
May 18 16:32:54 <DocScrutinizer05> there's L1_2 service manual
May 18 16:33:06 <DocScrutinizer05> the YT videos are often crap
May 18 16:33:22 <DocScrutinizer05> ~l1_2
May 18 16:33:27 <DocScrutinizer05> thought as much
May 18 16:34:12 <Venemo> can you please gimme a link? google is not very forthcoming
May 18 16:34:28 <Venemo> this is what I found: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVEHm325-z8
May 18 16:34:29 <DocScrutinizer05> http://pdadb.net/download/nokia_n900_rx-51_service_manual_l1-l2_v1_0.pdf
May 18 16:34:57 <DocScrutinizer05> ~#maemo l1_2 is http://pdadb.net/download/nokia_n900_rx-51_service_manual_l1-l2_v1_0.pdf
May 18 16:34:57 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05: okay
May 18 16:35:12 <Venemo> wow, thank you DocScrutinizer05
May 18 16:36:46 <Sicelo> DocScrutinizer05: maybe you could add factoid for l3&4 as well :)
May 18 16:36:50 <DocScrutinizer05> that YT video is crap
May 18 16:37:53 <DocScrutinizer05> it's exactly the crappy YT video I had in mind when I warned
May 18 16:38:34 <Venemo> I see
May 18 16:39:05 <KotCzarny> ~usbfix
May 18 16:39:05 <infobot> well, usbfix is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt
May 18 16:39:11 <DocScrutinizer05> they skip important stuff that will definitely cause fatal mistakes when you disassemble
May 18 16:39:59 <DocScrutinizer05> to 'compensate', they do stuff that's absolute nonsense to do
May 18 16:40:47 <Venemo> I was kinda surprised to find out that it really was an smd microusb that can really break off, but it did
May 18 16:41:21 <luke-jr> good luck
May 18 16:42:01 <luke-jr> IMO it's not possible to repair a broken USB :<
May 18 16:42:26 <Venemo> why not?
May 18 16:42:55 <luke-jr> too small, and there's no way to get at the parts that need to be soldered
May 18 16:43:33 <Sicelo> luke-jr: i did it on both my N900. had never done SMD work before. just using regular soldering iron and lots of flux
May 18 16:43:50 <Sicelo> i think the rest of you are far better experts than i am :)
May 18 16:44:11 <Sicelo> and you probably all have better equipment at your disposal
May 18 16:44:20 <luke-jr> …
May 18 16:44:29 <luke-jr> Sicelo: after it broke off?
May 18 16:44:33 <Sicelo> yep
May 18 16:44:53 <luke-jr> there's literally no way to even get at the connections with a soldering iron :/
May 18 16:45:14 <Sicelo> it's easy .. you need to remove a bit of the RF shielding
May 18 16:45:21 <luke-jr> :|
May 18 16:45:30 <luke-jr> that's safe?
May 18 16:45:51 <Sicelo> i'd say so. they haven't exploded yet :)
May 18 16:46:51 <DocScrutinizer05> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9FC9fAlfQE
May 18 16:46:53 <Sicelo> but yes, proper hot air/reflow station would be best .. but i didn't have that, and didn't trust anyone else to fix my N900.
May 18 16:48:38 <KotCzarny> sicelo: start n900 repair bussiness
May 18 16:49:07 <Sicelo> if there were lots of N900 users here, i would. :)
May 18 16:49:11 <KotCzarny> :)
May 18 16:49:14 <KotCzarny> make it so!
May 18 16:50:02 <Venemo> luke-jr: are you saying it isn't worth a try?
May 18 16:50:23 <KotCzarny> he just says he is not believing his hands
May 18 16:50:46 <KotCzarny> there are quite few people who did resolder broken usb to n900
May 18 16:50:53 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: if you want to try, i'd say give it a go by all means
May 18 16:51:03 <KotCzarny> you might try with some disposable phone as a practice
May 18 16:51:55 <Venemo> I can solder QFN chips, how much harder can a USB port be?
May 18 16:52:41 <DocScrutinizer05> luke-jr is right, but Sicelo is also right. And you can even use 5mm long thin wires to connect the USB pins to the pads on PCB, then bend those wires while you push the USB into place and solder it down on the mechanical posts and reenforce it as suggested in ~usbfix
May 18 16:53:35 <Venemo> so it just needs a bit of creativity
May 18 16:53:35 <DocScrutinizer05> I suggest to cut/file off a part of the "steel roof" of the USB component, which covers the electric pins
May 18 16:53:40 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
May 18 16:54:08 <Venemo> sounds doable, unless the pads on the pcb also broke off, in which case I'd need to be even more creative
May 18 16:54:20 <DocScrutinizer05> even then there's a fix for that
May 18 16:54:34 <DocScrutinizer05> there are other solder points nearby
May 18 16:54:42 <Venemo> I'll see tomorrow
May 18 16:54:52 <Venemo> :)
May 18 16:55:13 <KotCzarny> solder qi charger ;)
May 18 16:55:18 <Venemo> hehe
May 18 16:55:45 <Venemo> by the way since you guys were talking about the pyra earlier. the hardware does seem nice, but the form factor looks unconvincing to me
May 18 16:55:48 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=693493&postcount=12  the pics are gone, but they are available elsewhere ;-)
May 18 16:56:13 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=870017&postcount=27  see attachment
May 18 16:56:33 <Venemo> is there a chance that the pyra's hardware would come in other form factors (maybe a Neo900 variant?)
May 18 16:57:07 <Venemo> got it, I think I'll give it a go! thanks for the links DocScrutinizer05!
May 18 16:57:14 <DocScrutinizer05> yw
May 18 16:57:53 <DocScrutinizer05> (pyra) not in Neo900 / N900 formfactor, won't fit in
May 18 16:58:06 <KotCzarny> sicelo, did you notice? 
May 18 16:58:20 <Sicelo> notice what?
May 18 16:58:32 <KotCzarny> sicelo, i didnt solitice oscp yet ;)
May 18 16:58:37 <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 Step2 however is targeted at exactly this combination of SoC and features
May 18 16:58:47 <Sicelo> haha, ;)
May 18 16:58:51 <Venemo> really?
May 18 16:58:58 <Venemo> or you just teasin' us? :)
May 18 17:28:09 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: do you have a timeframe on this Neo900 Step2?
May 18 17:28:34 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: just a "after Neo900"
May 18 17:28:43 <Venemo> I see
May 18 17:29:31 <kerio> neo900 2? :o
May 18 17:29:38 <DocScrutinizer05> at times I considered to already start a kickstarter for Step2, declaring Neo900 the prototyping needed to implement Step2
May 18 17:29:47 <kerio> if you don't call it neo1800 i'm going to be disappointed
May 18 17:31:11 <DocScrutinizer05> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1444602&highlight=STEP2#post1444602
May 18 17:39:03 <KotCzarny> kerio: neo9000 would be better
May 18 17:39:18 <KotCzarny> (adding 0s for next models)
May 18 17:39:53 <ds3> Neo901
May 18 17:42:51 <Venemo> lol
May 18 17:42:54 <Venemo> the name doesn't matter
May 18 17:43:01 <KotCzarny> not true
May 18 17:43:07 <KotCzarny> name DOES matter!
May 18 17:43:14 <Venemo> but I'd definitely be more interested in an OMAP5 platform than an OMAP3 one
May 18 17:56:03 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, as soon as we made a maemo work flawlessly on a OPEM3 platform, without any closed blobs we couldn't port to an OMAP5 platform
May 18 17:56:30 <DocScrutinizer05> s/OPEM/OMAP/
May 18 17:56:30 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: sure, as soon as we made a maemo work flawlessly on a OMAP3 platform, without any closed blobs we couldn't port to an OMAP5 platform
May 18 17:57:50 <DocScrutinizer05> unlike Pyra we don't hope for a generic debian ecosystem where we simply apt-get $whatever from mainline repos
May 18 17:58:00 <Venemo> how comfortable would you be with a Mer port?
May 18 17:58:09 <DocScrutinizer05> we heavily base on the existing maemo ecosystem
May 18 17:58:21 <DocScrutinizer05> Mer? blargh!
May 18 17:58:34 <Venemo> you know, the stuff that Sailfish is based on.
May 18 17:58:53 <Venemo> at least part of the heavy lifting could be shared with those guys
May 18 17:59:23 <DocScrutinizer05> there *is* *no* heavy lifting in SW done by Neo900 UG. We don't have the manpower for that
May 18 17:59:31 <Venemo> yup, my point exactly
May 18 18:00:29 <Venemo> to be honest I haven't been following up with maemo for several years now, so not sure how it is (or if it changed at all)
May 18 18:00:52 <DocScrutinizer05> and in my book Sailfish continued exactly the ill guided Harmattan design principles
May 18 18:01:13 <Venemo> yeah, the Sailfish UI isn't something I'd use on a Neo900
May 18 18:01:25 <Venemo> but the base system is pretty adaptable
May 18 18:01:57 <DocScrutinizer05> adaptable doesn't mean *anybody* actually *will* adapt it
May 18 18:02:12 <Venemo> I'm not trying to get into an argument here
May 18 18:02:26 <Venemo> my personal problem with maemo (either 5 or 6) is that by now it has a 6+ years old version of basically everything
May 18 18:02:32 <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 is meant to work OOTB with maemo5
May 18 18:02:48 <Venemo> not sure how big an effort it would require to bring it up to date, if that's even possible (and not sure if that is a goal for you)
May 18 18:03:24 <FIQ> kerio, should compromise by calling it neo18000
May 18 18:03:24 <DocScrutinizer05> the goal for Neo900 is to provide an ecosystem where apps are already available
May 18 18:03:34 <DocScrutinizer05> not a dream device for developers
May 18 18:04:13 <FIQ> urgh I wasn't a huge fan of sailfish' UI
May 18 18:04:23 <FIQ> I didn't find it *bad*, just... not special
May 18 18:04:27 <DocScrutinizer05> if you want a cutting edge OS you're free to port it to Neo900, this is the core design rule that Neo900 is so open that you can do with it whatever you want
May 18 18:04:28 <FIQ> compared to iOS/android
May 18 18:04:32 <Venemo> sure thing
May 18 18:04:47 <FIQ> and having a steeper learning curve
May 18 18:05:07 <Venemo> FIQ: I'm not talking about the Sailfish UI here specifically, but the underlying system that it builds on
May 18 18:05:16 <FIQ> Mer?
May 18 18:05:22 <Venemo> yes.
May 18 18:05:27 <KotCzarny> you either want a blackbox device or pocket computer with phone function
May 18 18:05:31 <DocScrutinizer05> regardless Neo900 needs to be compatible to stock maemo5 to have a living ecosystem, we can't create a new one
May 18 18:05:34 <FIQ> I think Mer might work on the Neo900 alread
May 18 18:05:34 <FIQ> y
May 18 18:05:54 <FIQ> (theoretically that is, the Neo900 doesn't exist yet)
May 18 18:06:04 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: yeah I get that
May 18 18:06:14 <Venemo> not suggesting to start from scratch
May 18 18:06:26 <Venemo> but I'd love to have "the best of both worlds", if that's possible
May 18 18:06:36 <DocScrutinizer05> once there's a genuine Neo900 ecosystem, we can move on to whatever platform we like
May 18 18:06:42 <FIQ> <DocScrutinizer05> unlike Pyra we don't hope for a generic debian ecosystem where we simply apt-get $whatever from mainline repos
May 18 18:06:55 <Venemo> FIQ: yup, I got that too
May 18 18:07:05 <FIQ> the pyra will not ship pure debian I think
May 18 18:07:15 <DocScrutinizer05> it won't, true
May 18 18:07:35 <DocScrutinizer05> however it already has a pandora community that ports a lot of games and stuff
May 18 18:07:35 <FIQ> it will be basically debian, but also own repos (for optimized software) and some modifications
May 18 18:07:47 <KotCzarny> devuan
May 18 18:07:48 <FIQ> kinda similar to how earlier Maemos worked? I dunno
May 18 18:07:48 <FIQ> yeah
May 18 18:07:50 <KotCzarny> to be exact
May 18 18:08:06 <FIQ> KotCzarny, no, the pyra will ship with debian
May 18 18:08:10 <FIQ> not devuan
May 18 18:08:15 <KotCzarny> i mean for neo900
May 18 18:08:18 <FIQ> ah
May 18 18:09:40 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: what I was trying to say is that there are people out there who'd appreciate a fresh software stack
May 18 18:10:09 <Venemo> I personally would love to have a device for on-the-go hacking on which I can run the latest Qt5 and the latest GCC
May 18 18:10:14 <DocScrutinizer05> possible, but that's only of marginal impact to the design rules for Neo900
May 18 18:10:27 <DocScrutinizer05> Neo900 is hardware only
May 18 18:10:31 <Venemo> I know
May 18 18:10:40 <Venemo> just sayin :)
May 18 18:10:58 <KotCzarny> if you have latest libs, nothing stops you from having latest gcc/qt
May 18 18:11:15 <KotCzarny> and latest libs usually mean mainline kernel
May 18 18:11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> I can't see why you couldn't run latest Qt5 and the latest GCC on Neo900 or even N900
May 18 18:11:25 <Venemo> nobody has ported those to the N(eo)9(x) yet
May 18 18:11:33 <DocScrutinizer05> so?
May 18 18:11:51 <Venemo> not sure if it's even possible
May 18 18:11:52 <DocScrutinizer05> that's exactly my point, Neo900 UG won't
May 18 18:12:09 <FIQ> <Venemo> I personally would love to have a device for on-the-go hacking on which I can run the latest Qt5 and the latest GCC
May 18 18:12:14 * Venemo is not expecting Neo900 UG to do it, just here to discuss the possibilities
May 18 18:12:33 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: why you fullquote others?
May 18 18:12:34 <FIQ> then debian wouldn't be optimal either since it thrives in ensuring stability over up-to-date software
May 18 18:13:06 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05, I usually do that when I want to reply to someone to reference what I'm replying to
May 18 18:13:10 <Venemo> FIQ: I wouldn't want to get into an argument about debian here, let's try to stay productive
May 18 18:13:14 <DocScrutinizer05> the possibilities are all there, freemangordon runs kernel 4,over9000 on N900
May 18 18:13:21 <FIQ> (er, to clarify, I only do it when what I'm replying to is unclear)
May 18 18:13:35 <FIQ> Venemo, no no I'm not either
May 18 18:13:55 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: then I suggest you quoze only partial and append your answer in same post
May 18 18:14:19 <Venemo> FIQ: but as an aside, you are correct, I don't like debian and don't use it myself, but I respect its goals
May 18 18:14:27 <FIQ> just saying since it seemed you wanted the latest of the things
May 18 18:14:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ((I usually do that when I want to reply)) nobody understands that really
May 18 18:14:47 <FIQ> and thus debian wouldn't be optimal, not trying to start a distro flamewar :
May 18 18:14:49 <FIQ> :)
May 18 18:16:30 <FIQ> anyway Venemo, if you want a pocket computer for development, I think the pyra might arguably be a better choice due to its keyboard
May 18 18:16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ~devuan
May 18 18:16:39 <infobot> somebody said devuan was the most awesome distro, or https://devuan.org
May 18 18:17:03 <FIQ> (shoulder button as modifiers is *great*, a major gripe I had with N900's keyboard apart from being 3-row which is workable)
May 18 18:17:22 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: maemo "secretly" moved from debian to devuan as base distro (aka 'upstream')
May 18 18:17:59 <Venemo> you trying to covertly start a systemd flamewar?
May 18 18:18:08 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe no
May 18 18:18:18 <DocScrutinizer05> no systemd in maemo is a fact
May 18 18:18:47 <FIQ> I'm not a fan of systemd myself but the issues I've had with systemd is minor enough for me not to make a fuss about it
May 18 18:18:50 <Venemo> FIQ: I am actually considering the pyra, but I dislike its thickness and that ugly game console feeling
May 18 18:19:02 <FIQ> Venemo, I see
May 18 18:19:12 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: well, try to install systemd on maemo. Good luck!
May 18 18:19:17 <FIQ> personally I find game controls a feature, and not just for gaming purposes
May 18 18:19:31 <FIQ> DocScrutinizer05, haha I don't embrace systemd at all :P
May 18 18:19:36 <Venemo> @ systemd: I've been using it since F15 adopted it, never had any problems. don't wanna flame about it though :)
May 18 18:19:53 <FIQ> I'd rather stay away, but on desktop I feel that avoiding it is more hassle than it's worth
May 18 18:20:22 <FIQ> I've had minor issues with it, issues I never had with the previous init systems I've used
May 18 18:20:27 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: it simply is incompatible to maemo, and will stay so invariably
May 18 18:20:28 <FIQ> but those are *minor*
May 18 18:20:33 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: okay.
May 18 18:20:57 <Venemo> on a different not: it would be interesting to know if the pyra's hw could be squeezed into an N810. that's something I would actually want.
May 18 18:21:03 <Venemo> on a different note: it would be interesting to know if the pyra's hw could be squeezed into an N810. that's something I would actually want.
May 18 18:21:12 <DocScrutinizer05> e.g. both maemo5 and systemd claim exclusive use of cgroups
May 18 18:21:26 <KotCzarny> venemo: http://linux-sunxi.org/User:Kc#systemd_is_evil
May 18 18:21:35 <KotCzarny> just a few links i've gathered
May 18 18:22:02 <FIQ> (the 3 issues that stood out for me was more tinkering needed to set things up, binary logfiles (why...), and a weird bug that made my system incredibly slow under certain circumstances)
May 18 18:22:05 <DocScrutinizer05> ((N810)) no way
May 18 18:22:05 <Venemo> KotCzarny: I have a few links of my own with counter-arguments, but let's not flame here please.
May 18 18:22:15 <KotCzarny> ok
May 18 18:22:16 <KotCzarny> :)
May 18 18:22:27 <KotCzarny> we are free to choose what we like
May 18 18:22:46 <FIQ> but ultimately I wont bother messing with things either way
May 18 18:23:24 <FIQ> Venemo, why the N810?
May 18 18:23:40 <FIQ> hm IIRC it had some benefits with the case that the N900 lacks
May 18 18:23:45 <FIQ> can't remember what exactly
May 18 18:24:01 <KotCzarny> good speakers?
May 18 18:24:08 <KotCzarny> big screen?
May 18 18:24:11 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: the pyra board should be around the right size for an N810, the dimensions look somewhat similar
May 18 18:24:16 <KotCzarny> dpad?
May 18 18:24:27 <DocScrutinizer05> I doubt it
May 18 18:24:35 <Venemo> FIQ: bigger screen, better keyboard, room for larger battery, better overall build quality. that is just my impression though.
May 18 18:24:38 <FIQ> ah, I never used the speakers myself on either device (obviously in the case of n810, I never had one)
May 18 18:24:49 <FIQ> didn't know it had a bigger screen/keyboard though
May 18 18:25:05 <KotCzarny> keyboard was similar in size
May 18 18:25:14 <FIQ> I've seen its d-pad, I prefer an actual d-pad, but I guess it's better than what N900 had
May 18 18:25:52 <DocScrutinizer05> N810 was (is) awesome
May 18 18:26:27 <DocScrutinizer05> and I still think (unlike many other users) that the N810 kbd is superior to the N900's
May 18 18:26:49 <Venemo_j> FIQ: look it up on wikipedia
May 18 18:27:00 <Venemo_j> DocScrutinizer05 +1
May 18 18:27:16 <FIQ> I wish more portable keyboards had shoulder buttons :P
May 18 18:28:04 <Venemo_j> I actually considered buying an N810 when I realized I wasn't gonna be as productive on the jolla phone as I was on the N900...
May 18 18:28:46 <Venemo_j> >4" devices are the norm these days anyway so it wouldn't even raise any eyebrows
May 18 18:29:16 <FIQ> heh
May 18 18:29:19 <FIQ> smaller and smaller
May 18 18:29:25 <FIQ> suddenly, bigger and bigger
May 18 18:29:30 <Venemo_j> I would've got one if it wasn't for the spectaculary outdated cpu architecture
May 18 18:29:44 <FIQ> what does it use, OMAP2?
May 18 18:29:48 <KotCzarny> yup
May 18 18:29:51 <Venemo_j> yup
May 18 18:29:55 <FIQ> ah
May 18 18:30:23 <KotCzarny> works great as a heart of intelligent audio system
May 18 18:30:44 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: ((suddenly, bigger and bigger)) the veteran users told Nokia so before N900 rollout
May 18 18:31:26 <luke-jr> N810 kbd is definitely superior to  N900
May 18 18:31:28 <luke-jr> by far
May 18 18:31:47 <DocScrutinizer05> if Nokia had kept the N810 formfactor for N900, that would've been a dream
May 18 18:32:22 <DocScrutinizer05> the screen feels like 3 times the size - obviously it's not but still...
May 18 18:32:40 <DocScrutinizer05> so does the kbd
May 18 18:32:53 <FIQ> is it 4row?
May 18 18:33:00 <DocScrutinizer05> err
May 18 18:33:03 * DocScrutinizer05 checks
May 18 18:33:13 <luke-jr> overall, I prefer the C760 formfactor
May 18 18:33:14 <FIQ> should know that :P
May 18 18:33:18 <luke-jr> so I have high hopes for Pyra
May 18 18:33:18 <FIQ> it's a huge difference
May 18 18:33:28 <FIQ> C760?
May 18 18:33:30 <DocScrutinizer05> yup
May 18 18:33:34 <luke-jr> FIQ: yes
May 18 18:33:34 <FIQ> oo
May 18 18:33:41 <FIQ> yeah that would have been great
May 18 18:33:46 <luke-jr> http://www.dreadscott.com/C760/Zaurus_C760.jpg
May 18 18:34:09 <FIQ> then the only real complaint I would have with it would ultimately be trickier modifiers on thumb keyboards
May 18 18:34:48 <DocScrutinizer05> dang, that thing collected to much dust, I thought the diplay is broken and went black, while it was only a wipe where dost got removed ;-P
May 18 18:34:59 <DocScrutinizer05> s/ to / so /
May 18 18:35:00 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: dang, that thing collected so much dust, I thought the diplay is broken and went black, while it was only a wipe where dost got removed ;-P
May 18 18:35:56 <Venemo_j> my N950's screen died :(
May 18 18:35:57 <DocScrutinizer05> again dang! I need to revivie this thing
May 18 18:36:23 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh N950, definitely not using that one for anything. Wrong OS
May 18 18:36:46 <FIQ> isn't aegis easy to get rid of though
May 18 18:36:53 <FIQ> luke-jr, ah
May 18 18:36:56 <DocScrutinizer05> I hate an OS that tells me "MALF!" when I touch a silly harmless init script or whatever
May 18 18:38:05 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.cloud-7.de/Aegis-kills-device.jpg
May 18 18:38:38 <Venemo_j> was cool in 2011
May 18 18:38:47 <DocScrutinizer05> MALF never was cool
May 18 18:38:55 <Venemo_j> not MALF
May 18 18:39:06 <FIQ> that's dumb
May 18 18:39:16 <Venemo_j> but the device was
May 18 18:39:20 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
May 18 18:39:48 <DocScrutinizer05> Werner got one a 6 months ago and went "SHIT! why didn't Nokia sell those?"
May 18 18:39:52 <FIQ> but I have a feeling they "had" to
May 18 18:40:10 <FIQ> as in, they were persuaded by operators to do it
May 18 18:40:27 <KotCzarny> not operators, managers probably
May 18 18:40:35 <Venemo_j> there were rumors
May 18 18:40:44 <FIQ> IIRC the n900 got into operator trouble for not being able to be locked
May 18 18:40:46 <Venemo_j> about that
May 18 18:40:48 <DocScrutinizer05> for the rationale of Aegis?
May 18 18:41:13 <DocScrutinizer05> err N900 *was* able to get locked, at least SIMlocked
May 18 18:41:32 <FIQ> uh
May 18 18:41:37 <FIQ> how do you lock a phone
May 18 18:41:41 <FIQ> that allows you to be root
May 18 18:41:53 <DocScrutinizer05> it's a modem thing, not APE
May 18 18:42:15 <DocScrutinizer05> it's a BB5 phone like many other Nokia phones
May 18 18:42:22 <FIQ> mhm
May 18 18:43:41 <DocScrutinizer05> aegis was more about overclocking and generally gaining control over the ecosystem again. More sales-speak they decided to make money from software and that didn't pan out with OVI and maemo5
May 18 18:44:16 <DocScrutinizer05> and finally Nokia died from that ill concept of "make money from appshop"
May 18 18:45:37 <Venemo> they died from the ill concept of betting too much on symbian and killing off the in-house competitors to that
May 18 18:46:01 <DocScrutinizer05> that too, to some degree
May 18 18:46:18 <DocScrutinizer05> however symbian had a working ecosystem but no future
May 18 18:47:05 <DocScrutinizer05> while maemo never had an ecosystem like a "decent product", it always was FOSS
May 18 18:47:20 <DocScrutinizer05> more FOSS than nokia sales droids liked it
May 18 18:47:29 <Venemo> they should've invested more into maemo and maybe should've made a symbian runtime on top of that. by the time they realized their mistake (and bought Qt), it was too late
May 18 18:48:09 <Venemo> who knows
May 18 18:48:11 <DocScrutinizer05> they should have focused on selling decent hardware rather than trying to make money from appshops
May 18 18:48:17 <KotCzarny> they should've gave maemo more freedom to experiment, not trying to sell out on it
May 18 18:48:28 <Venemo> anyway, I believe nokia's mistake was mismanagement, simply
May 18 18:48:35 <DocScrutinizer05> OVI was an epic failure
May 18 18:48:49 <Venemo> I wasn't sorry to see them go
May 18 18:49:01 <Venemo> (although I was sorry for the good engineers that worked there)
May 18 18:49:56 <DocScrutinizer05> yep. A pity some of the worst of Nokia spirit got ported to Jolla
May 18 18:50:34 <DocScrutinizer05> while some of the best got lost during that transition
May 18 18:51:08 <DocScrutinizer05> or maybe, it was already lost at that time, drowned in Aegis
May 18 18:51:24 <Venemo> indeed
May 18 18:51:26 <Venemo> who knows.
May 18 18:51:47 <Venemo> to be honest I'm not sure if actually anyone is working on anything in jolla
May 18 18:52:19 <Venemo> we gave them hundreds of bugreports since 2013, none of which have been fixed since (okay, maybe one or two)
May 18 18:52:34 <DocScrutinizer05> which is one of the nasty concepts inherited from Nokia. Completely opaque
May 18 18:52:36 <KotCzarny> drowned in bugs
May 18 18:53:11 <Venemo> at least from the few dozens that I personally reported,, only one or two is fixed, a few are marked as "this is a feature, not a bug", the rest just isn't cared about
May 18 18:53:25 <Venemo> I was really sorry to see all that
May 18 18:53:32 <FIQ> Venemo: I get the impression that they have too few engineers to be productive with the OS itself
May 18 18:53:41 <FIQ> s/engineers/workers/
May 18 18:53:42 <infobot> FIQ meant: Venemo: I get the impression that they have too few workers to be productive with the OS itself
May 18 18:53:56 <Venemo> I don't know. they got some good people still
May 18 18:54:08 <DocScrutinizer05> I think Jolla simply didn't learn the lessons from maemo
May 18 18:54:23 <Venemo> but since the communication from them is 0, I'm not sure what's going on in there
May 18 18:55:24 <FIQ> and I thought they were supposed to be open
May 18 18:55:26 <DocScrutinizer05> seems there's no Quim Gill at Jolla either
May 18 18:55:30 <FIQ> and transparent
May 18 18:55:54 <Venemo> they were a lot more open and transparent in 2013 than they are now
May 18 18:58:53 <DocScrutinizer05> https://de.linkedin.com/in/quimgil
May 18 18:59:18 <kerio> DocScrutinizer05: what about a watercooled, overclocked-to-smithereens omap3?
May 18 18:59:34 <DocScrutinizer05> Jolla seems to lack understanding of the importance of a porson like Quim in their company
May 18 19:00:15 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: what about it? did it reach the Jupiter already?
May 18 19:00:31 <kerio> no, for the neo900 2
May 18 19:00:40 <DocScrutinizer05> no way
May 18 19:00:49 <DocScrutinizer05> OMAP3 is already almost EOL
May 18 19:00:50 <kerio> replace the screen with a vat for the liquid nitrogen
May 18 19:01:14 <kerio> bump the cpu to 2ghz
May 18 19:01:20 <DocScrutinizer05> OMAP3 has _no_ decent digital video interface
May 18 19:01:43 <DocScrutinizer05> OMAP3 has a max of 1GB RAM
May 18 19:02:53 <luke-jr> I thought OMAP5 was EOL?
May 18 19:03:15 <DocScrutinizer05> err
May 18 19:03:38 <FIQ> who is Quim anyway?
May 18 19:03:45 <DocScrutinizer05> OMAP and TI embedded is End Of R&D
May 18 19:03:59 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: https://de.linkedin.com/in/quimgil
May 18 19:04:01 <FIQ> "OMAP3 is already almost EOL" <- almost?
May 18 19:04:25 <DocScrutinizer05> FIQ: yes, we can still buy chips
May 18 19:04:52 <DocScrutinizer05> it even seems TI still builds them
May 18 19:05:43 <Venemo> FIQ: Quim was the community manager when Maemo was a thing. he stepped down after Harmattan (aka. Maemo 6) turned out to be a dead end
May 18 19:05:58 <DocScrutinizer05> actually it's rather like OMAP5 is not fully evaluated yet
May 18 19:06:05 <FIQ> Venemo: ah
May 18 19:06:55 <DocScrutinizer05> Quim basically was the heart and soul of maemo
May 18 19:07:16 <DocScrutinizer05> allegedly he talked Nokia into maemo, to start with
May 18 19:08:06 <Venemo> I haven't heard that before
May 18 19:08:23 <Venemo> what I remember is that he turned kinda bitter by the end
May 18 19:08:36 <DocScrutinizer05> well, I heard it as hearsay or reference in some IRC gossip a few years ago
May 18 19:08:36 <Venemo> which is pretty understandable considering...
May 18 19:08:47 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
May 18 19:11:23 <Venemo> the thing is, I only joined the party with the N900, so I missed the really fun early days
May 18 19:12:02 <DocScrutinizer05> >> open source advocate @ MeeGo team Nokia April 2008 – January 2012 (3 years 10 months)<<
May 18 19:13:11 <DocScrutinizer05> actually Carsten Raterman Haitzler introduced me to N800 in Taipei when we shared the Openmoko apartment
May 18 19:13:20 <KotCzarny> venemo, buy yourself 770, n800 and n810, just for fun (and they are cheap)
May 18 19:13:23 <DocScrutinizer05> Rasterman*
May 18 19:13:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I instantly got me a N810 and was sold to the concept
May 18 19:14:34 <Venemo> KotCzarny: I considered that, and would even buy an N810 if it wasn't for the outdated cpu arch
May 18 19:15:04 <DocScrutinizer05> then Raster and me tried to convince Openmoko of the benefits of OMAP and its zeroclocking, compared to the quite awkward suspend-to-RAM concept of OM's devices
May 18 19:15:51 <KotCzarny> venemo, you still can write useful apps and have use cases for it
May 18 19:16:11 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: sou prolly wuldn't. I tried and it's near impossible to find a N810 now, I'm happy I got two working ones
May 18 19:16:20 <KotCzarny> because if you drop the bloat, its cpu is enough
May 18 19:16:29 <Venemo> KotCzarny: my use case would be on-the-go hacking and productivity
May 18 19:16:41 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: there are always some of them on the bay
May 18 19:16:48 <DocScrutinizer05> wow
May 18 19:17:02 <DocScrutinizer05> last time I checked there was zilch
May 18 19:18:57 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: btw, is the new kernel you spoke of part of the community SSU?
May 18 19:19:16 <DocScrutinizer05> no
May 18 19:19:20 <KotCzarny> not yet
May 18 19:19:58 <DocScrutinizer05> CSSU is about conservative maintenance of maemo, a new kernel would be part of FPTF I'd guess
May 18 19:20:47 <DocScrutinizer05> KP is still 2.6.28, no?
May 18 19:21:21 <Venemo> ah.
May 18 19:21:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ~cssu
May 18 19:21:42 <infobot> [cssu] http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU, or (Community Seamless Software Update)
May 18 19:21:47 <DocScrutinizer05> ~fptf
May 18 19:21:47 <infobot> extra, extra, read all about it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308
May 18 19:22:14 <Venemo> okay
May 18 19:22:51 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/Community_SSU#Testers
May 18 19:23:45 <KotCzarny> im still searching for cheap nokia 770
May 18 19:23:52 <KotCzarny> (for science and stuff)
May 18 19:24:29 <Venemo> btw, taking a look at the design of the pyra, I'd say that the pcb which has the CPU and RAM could fit and one would "only" need to design a smaller pcb for the connectors to fit it the hw in a smaller case
May 18 19:26:09 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, exactly
May 18 19:26:40 <Venemo> which seems to be a doable thing if you get rid of the sd card slots and the extra usb ports
May 18 19:26:52 <DocScrutinizer05> where "PCB for connectors" is a tad misleading since that PCB has a lot more than only connectors
May 18 19:27:16 <Venemo> sure
May 18 19:27:59 <Venemo> but (judging by the photos) most of the area is occupied by the two sd card readers and the usbs
May 18 19:28:01 <DocScrutinizer05> actually I guess 80% to 90% of the whole BOM sit on the main PCB
May 18 19:28:47 <KotCzarny> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-OF-11-NEW-Nokia-770-Internet-Tablet-/172175449336?hash=item281674dcf8:g:VuEAAOSwWTRW0LVi
May 18 19:28:52 <KotCzarny> eheheh, any takers?
May 18 19:30:57 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: out of curiosity, how many pcb layers are there?
May 18 19:32:49 <DocScrutinizer05> I dunno, I'm not a part of Pyra R&D team
May 18 19:33:25 <DocScrutinizer05> I *guess* they tried hard to get away with only 4 layers on main PCB
May 18 19:34:18 <DocScrutinizer05> the 8+ layers are only needed to breakout the huge SoC BGA
May 18 19:34:59 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: but why not ask those questions on #dragonbox-pyra ?
May 18 19:35:03 <Venemo> and the Neo900?
May 18 19:35:31 <Venemo> I mean, how many layers do you guys have?
May 18 19:35:33 <DocScrutinizer05> The Neo900 hopes to get away with 4 layers for LOWER and 8 layers for UPPER
May 18 19:35:49 <Venemo> lower what, and upper what?
May 18 19:35:57 <DocScrutinizer05> PCB
May 18 19:37:01 <Venemo> I wasn't aware that there were two pcbs in it
May 18 19:37:27 <DocScrutinizer05> http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/talk.pdf  page 11
May 18 19:37:54 <DocScrutinizer05> http://neo900.org/stuff/cccamp15/ccc2015talk/neo900-wpwrak_CCC2015.webm
May 18 19:38:15 <Venemo> ah, I see
May 18 19:39:36 <Venemo> cool stuff
May 18 19:39:58 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, Werner's talk is brilliant
May 18 19:40:27 <Venemo> did you talk too? your name's on the slides
May 18 19:41:02 <DocScrutinizer05> hehe, I have a speacial appearance in the background a few times, bringing Werner a bottle of Club Mate
May 18 19:41:24 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't do talks
May 18 19:42:40 <Venemo> you shy?
May 18 19:43:16 <DocScrutinizer05> 10:53
May 18 19:43:34 <DocScrutinizer05> ((shy)) that too, plus I can't talk
May 18 19:43:52 <DocScrutinizer05> well, you would either cringe or fall asleep
May 18 19:44:03 <Venemo> that's just another skill one can develop
May 18 19:44:14 <Venemo> hm.
May 18 19:44:19 <Venemo> since we're talking hardware
May 18 19:44:20 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm happy with the skillset I got
May 18 19:44:43 <Venemo> there is a thing I don't understand and was too afraid to ask
May 18 19:44:53 <DocScrutinizer05> just ask :-D
May 18 19:45:04 <DocScrutinizer05> hint: #neo900
May 18 19:45:21 <Venemo> that is: why isn't there any chip vendor selling hand-solderable Cortex-A CPUs? like, I'd be pretty happy to see something in QFN
May 18 19:45:52 <DocScrutinizer05> err, it has some 500+ pins
May 18 19:45:59 <Venemo> not all of them
May 18 19:46:13 <Venemo> I mean, not all of them would actually need all of those pins
May 18 19:46:45 <Venemo> the closest thing I found was a thing called Vybrid (with Cortex-A5) in QFP
May 18 19:47:04 <Venemo> the rest of them are all BGA, which, sadly, I can't hand-solder
May 18 19:47:47 <KotCzarny> make a universal 'socket' for bga?
May 18 19:48:11 <DocScrutinizer05> (two PCB) see 13:35
May 18 19:50:17 <sunshavi> that video sounds interesting, even i am not watching it
May 18 19:50:44 <sunshavi> on n900 now
May 18 19:51:03 <DocScrutinizer05> you should watch it if you're interested in Neo900
May 18 19:51:14 <DocScrutinizer05> and maemo history
May 18 19:51:49 <sunshavi> sure. I am an n800 user
May 18 19:51:50 <DocScrutinizer05> it's prolly not suited for N900 playback, yes
May 18 19:54:50 <sunshavi> KotCzarny: perhaps with oscp?
May 18 19:55:24 <Sicelo> not with oscp either
May 18 19:55:45 <Venemo> DocScrutinizer05: so out of curiosity, how do you make a proto with a BGA chip?
May 18 19:55:47 <Sicelo> N900 just lacks the processing power for that video :)
May 18 19:55:56 <Venemo> nah
May 18 19:56:02 <DocScrutinizer05> in a factory that has all the tooling
May 18 19:56:17 <Venemo> but then it must be expensive even to just make one
May 18 19:56:26 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, it is expensive
May 18 19:57:12 <DocScrutinizer05> we could try to do the placement and soldering "at home", but it's prolly not worth the risk and hassle
May 18 19:57:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ~wiki vapor phase soldering
May 18 19:57:42 <infobot> I couldn't find a matching article in wikipedia, look for yerselves: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=vapor+phase+soldering&go=Go
May 18 19:57:49 <Venemo> placement sounds like the issue here
May 18 19:57:58 <Venemo> the soldering you could do with just hot air
May 18 19:58:25 <DocScrutinizer05> https://www.google.de/search?q=vapor+phase+soldering
May 18 19:58:39 <DocScrutinizer05> easier than hot air
May 18 19:58:59 <DocScrutinizer05> placement and solder paste application, yes
May 18 19:59:19 <ceene> by the way, i was yesterday at the factory that solders components for our company's boards
May 18 19:59:37 <ceene> and i asked them about PoP such as n900 and ram replacement
May 18 20:00:15 <DocScrutinizer05> what did they answer?
May 18 20:00:15 <ceene> i was told they can do it, but that it's q a difficult process with no guarantees
May 18 20:01:00 <ceene> they showed me the machine, a vacuum extractor with several heads that can be used to fit the right size of the chip
May 18 20:02:16 <ceene> he told me that even before taking out the ram, odds are the whole package would get out
May 18 20:02:56 <ceene> so... basically only do that if one of the chips is broken and you're willing to give it a try
May 18 20:03:24 <ceene> i asked for homemade options and he didn't think it to be feasible
May 18 20:07:33 <KotCzarny> um
May 18 20:07:46 <KotCzarny> if it would be feasible to fit 1gb onto n900..
May 18 20:07:54 <Venemo> PoP = ?
May 18 20:08:19 <ceene> package on package
May 18 20:08:25 <ceene> ram is soldered on top of cpu
May 18 20:08:59 <ceene> they told me they could do try to do it, without any guarantee
May 18 20:09:01 <KotCzarny> but seriously, n900 with more ram would rocke the show
May 18 20:09:06 <Venemo> ah. that.
May 18 20:09:20 <ceene> yeah, simply me ram would be something amazing
May 18 20:09:27 <ceene> s/me/more/
May 18 20:09:28 <infobot> ceene meant: yeah, simply more ram would be something amazing
May 18 20:09:43 <Venemo> @ BGA and handsoldering: I know some guys who make stencils from paper and do it that way :)
May 18 20:10:28 <ceene> in a couple months we're gonna make a bga based board
May 18 20:10:36 <ceene> i can tell you prices then
May 18 20:13:59 <Venemo> sure
May 18 20:14:24 <Venemo> let me know
May 18 20:15:26 <ceene> infobot: are you able to remind me of things?
May 18 20:16:21 <ceene> i'll have to remember by myself
May 18 20:20:46 <DocScrutinizer05> Venemo: (VPS) http://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/307715
May 18 20:21:29 <Venemo> sorry DocScrutinizer05 I forgot most of my German over the years
May 18 20:22:40 <Venemo> which post should I look at?
May 18 20:24:16 <DocScrutinizer05> well, the one with the pictures, it explains the pretty low resource demands for VPS
May 18 20:24:49 <DocScrutinizer05> just look at the pics, the text is less important
May 18 20:24:56 <Venemo> VPS = ?
May 18 20:25:03 <DocScrutinizer05> Vapor Phase soldering
May 18 20:25:07 <Venemo> ah, that
May 18 20:26:33 <DocScrutinizer05> ceene: yes, separating PoP is basically not an option
May 18 20:27:09 <DocScrutinizer05> we used new SoC too when we tested the 1GB RAM PoPs on our pimped BB-xM
May 18 20:34:02 <ceene> which components are going to be on each board?
May 18 20:34:20 <ceene> i haven't fully undertood the problem in the slides you linked before
May 18 20:34:33 <ceene> *understood
May 18 20:46:22 <DocScrutinizer05> ceene: isn't that a question for #neo900 ?
May 18 20:46:51 <ceene> undoubtedly, yeah
May 18 20:47:20 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway, the schematics have a note on each sheet whether it's UPPEr or LOWER, afaik
May 18 20:47:41 <ceene> ah, okay
May 18 20:47:51 <ceene> well, i'll watch the talk tomrrow
May 18 20:48:02 <ceene> i'm sure it solves some doubts
May 18 20:52:38 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway for most components the placement is obvious from the connections they need to make and space we have to place them
May 18 20:53:43 <DocScrutinizer05> everything RF goes to LOWER since there are the antennas. Same for audio and all the switches
May 18 20:54:11 <DocScrutinizer05> obviously also the USB jack and the AV jack
May 18 20:54:48 <DocScrutinizer05> CPU and interface to display goes to UPPER
May 18 20:55:54 <DocScrutinizer05> kbd is upper too
May 18 20:58:10 <DocScrutinizer05> camera goes to UPPER
May 18 20:59:33 <DocScrutinizer05> it will stick to upper with a doublesided sticky foam patch and connect to upper with the B2B connector
May 18 21:00:43 <DocScrutinizer05> thermo/baro/hygro sensor goer to upper right corner of upper surface of upper, to get maximum exposed to ambient
May 18 21:03:46 <ceene> i guess this design has a lot more things than the n900
May 18 21:04:25 <ceene> would it be possible to fit everythin on a two side populated board?
May 18 21:05:21 <ceene> don't know if it even makes sense
May 18 21:05:54 <DocScrutinizer05> falso see http://neo900.org/stuff/werner/stacking/  For the second SIM slot there's a placement diagram in stuff/ somewhere but right now I can't find it
May 18 21:06:36 <DocScrutinizer05> sure you can fit everything on a two side populated single board... given it's large enough ;-)
May 18 21:07:37 <DocScrutinizer05> I did a calculation and concluded we're at roughly 60 to 70% (iirc) use of available real estate
May 18 21:07:53 <DocScrutinizer05> when we use all 4 surfaces S1 to S4
May 18 21:08:08 <DocScrutinizer05> honestly we should take that to #neo900
May 18 21:08:26 <ceene> sure
May 18 21:18:57 <sunshavi> Hi guys, question about fm radio on n800
May 18 21:20:00 <sunshavi> I have edited the stations file on /apps/maemo/fmradio/frequency_key. How Can I tell the fmradio plugin to reload it, without rebooting
May 18 21:41:02 <sunshavi> the plugin used to look for the info from this site http://sds.hpvisualradio.com/sdsweb/Search.do 
May 18 21:43:43 <sunshavi> if knowing the output of that operation i can simulate the output :). Any idea?
May 18 21:46:50 <DocScrutinizer05> ugh?
May 18 21:48:09 <DocScrutinizer05> I think the N810 never had a radio. And I had no N800. The N900 however hardly looks at websites to check for any parameters for the radio
May 18 21:48:57 <ds3> how wide of a freqency range is the radio on the n900?
May 18 21:49:12 <DocScrutinizer05> err japan plus worldwide
May 18 21:49:29 <DocScrutinizer05> I.E some 76(?) up to 108
May 18 21:50:41 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_FM_radio_receiver
May 18 21:51:14 <DocScrutinizer05> mmphh, has no decent info on freq range
May 18 21:52:20 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.broadcom.com/products/Bluetooth/Bluetooth-RF-Silicon-and-Software-Solutions/BCM2048
May 18 21:54:24 <sunshavi> I am using just the transmitter
May 18 21:54:31 <sunshavi> which is nice by the way
May 18 21:54:32 <ds3> oh
May 18 21:54:38 <ds3> so no chance of getting it up to like 144MHz
May 18 21:54:46 <ds3> (Ham band)
May 18 21:54:48 <sunshavi> the fmradio plugin on n800 is better than on n900
May 18 21:54:58 <sunshavi> the best radio app is on n9
May 18 21:55:22 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.qic.com.cn/qicfileserver/readFile.action?filePath=/pdf/BOARDCOM/BCM2048.pdf  76-108
May 18 21:55:38 <DocScrutinizer05> ds3: nope, no way
May 18 21:56:13 <sunshavi> I have recorded somewhere the exact chip that cames on n800
May 18 21:56:17 <DocScrutinizer05> sunshavi: I'm not used to the term "plugin"
May 18 21:56:46 <sunshavi> 4 n900 it is the name as widget
May 18 21:57:20 <ds3> that comes up as a 2 page flyer for me
May 18 21:57:30 <ds3> oh nevermind... that is a 2 page flyer :D
May 18 21:57:35 <DocScrutinizer05> still has the range
May 18 21:57:50 <ds3> was hoping there is a register spec on the tuner
May 18 21:59:31 <sunshavi> according to this page https://wiki.maemo.org/Programming_N800_FM_radio_receiver
May 18 21:59:42 <sunshavi> it is tea5761
May 18 22:05:31 <sunshavi> an alternative could be to create a c prg and call it from cli. So no need 4 the plugin aka widget
May 18 22:11:33 <DocScrutinizer05> ds3: http://lxr.free-electrons.com/source/drivers/staging/media/bcm2048/radio-bcm2048.c#L311
May 18 22:13:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ds3: you could try what the bcm2048 can get forced resp "overclocked" (literally) into, by patching the driver, I guess
May 18 22:14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> but I wouldn't hold my breath to see it doing anything >108 as specified in that dadashit
May 18 22:28:18 <ds3> *nod*
May 18 22:30:43 <APic> How do i run Andorid-Apps without Dual-Boot, but inside Maemo?
May 18 22:30:49 <APic> QEMU?
May 18 22:30:56 <APic> Or is there a seminative Dalvik-VM?
May 18 22:31:06 <Sicelo> no
May 18 22:32:23 <Sicelo> there is/was apkenv .. didn't run all android applications. i never got it to work myself
May 18 22:34:28 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, what was that latest shit for android emu?
May 18 22:34:59 <Sicelo> on N900?
May 18 22:36:30 <DocScrutinizer05> Shashlik
May 18 22:36:40 <DocScrutinizer05> https://www.pyra-handheld.com/wiki/index.php?title=Comparison_Chart
May 18 22:36:49 <DocScrutinizer05> all I know about that
May 18 22:37:29 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.shashlik.io/
May 18 22:38:51 <DocScrutinizer05> APic: why qemu? it's the same processor
May 18 22:39:03 <DocScrutinizer05> at least could
May 18 22:40:42 <APic> DocScrutinizer05: I thought maybe QEMU could already run Dalvik-Code
May 18 22:40:46 <APic> But probably not
May 18 22:40:54 <APic> So yes, i can just compile the Dalvik VM for N900
May 18 22:41:07 <DocScrutinizer05> see shashlik
May 18 22:41:10 <APic> Thanks!
May 18 22:41:16 <DocScrutinizer05> sounds reasonably easy
May 18 22:42:16 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, they mention qemu too
May 18 22:43:44 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry I have no clue, never touched android
May 18 22:44:12 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh wait, I touch it when I pick up my gf's phone
May 18 22:44:42 <ds3> did you instantly slam it down on the ground in disgust?
May 18 22:51:22 <sunshavi> lol: My son got one on a contest; pretty nice hw cmp to my n800
May 18 22:51:30 <sunshavi> multitouch
May 18 22:51:39 <sunshavi> awfull battery life
May 18 22:53:41 <sunshavi> nice screen again cmp to my n800 (on sunlight specially)
May 18 22:56:12 <ds3> remove the google crap and the battery life will improve dramatically
May 18 22:56:26 <ds3> Google Play Services is the energy hog
May 18 22:57:04 <DocScrutinizer05> ds3: nope, actually I recommended the particular phone when she asked what to get
May 18 22:57:46 <sunshavi> any command line to rm it quickly, or just gui based?
May 18 22:57:53 <DocScrutinizer05> well, actually first I gave her my hooker800
May 18 22:58:12 <DocScrutinizer05> which she killed - maybe *she* slammed it into a wall ;-)
May 18 22:59:41 <DocScrutinizer05> cmd line? on android? welllll.... I heard there allegedly is a way to get that
May 18 23:01:35 <DocScrutinizer05> believe it or not, she killed the USB jack on that SG thing
May 18 23:01:52 <DocScrutinizer05> so it's obviously not a N900 specific problem
May 18 23:03:41 <sunshavi> DocScrutinizer05, yes adb shell gives you a nice terminal
May 18 23:03:57 <DocScrutinizer05> seems people with low tech affinity tend to now waste a millisecond bothering about mechanical threats to plugs
May 18 23:04:16 <DocScrutinizer05> s/ now / not /
May 18 23:04:17 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: seems people with low tech affinity tend to not waste a millisecond bothering about mechanical threats to plugs
May 18 23:05:08 <DocScrutinizer05> she's relentlessly bending the USB plug up or down until the thing starts charging
May 18 23:05:37 <sunshavi> DocScrutinizer05: hooker800=n800?
May 18 23:05:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I won't even try to teach her about the negative effects of that 
May 18 23:06:13 <DocScrutinizer05> hooker = (spanish) lumia
May 18 23:06:44 <DocScrutinizer05> Nokia sent me one, like all of the N9 owners
May 18 23:07:16 <sunshavi> DocScrutinizer05: thanks 4 the info. Btw i am an n9 owner where is my hooker?
May 18 23:07:54 <DocScrutinizer05> obviously they were *soooo* proud of the N9 bastard
May 18 23:08:36 <DocScrutinizer05> I guess they sent them to all who received a N9 devel device
May 18 23:08:44 <sunshavi> N9: nice thing have multitouch, I am too lazy 4 having another scratchbox rootstrap, 4 experimenting with it
May 18 23:09:33 <DocScrutinizer05> well, my N9 died during disassembling it to rip out its secrets
May 18 23:10:18 <DocScrutinizer05> was well worth it, the reward was 1GB RAM PoP chips for Neo900
May 18 23:10:30 <sunshavi> lol, my is still working. I use it as a camera. 
May 18 23:11:00 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, it's a bit of a pity, the N9 was a nice device, despite the Aegis mess and all
May 18 23:11:03 <sunshavi> n900 camera sucks. like 8 seconds for taking a second pic. I can't stand it
May 18 23:11:17 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed
May 18 23:11:33 <sunshavi> we can have whatever that has linux inside, that's the reason my n800 still rocks
May 18 23:11:38 <DocScrutinizer05> however that's a software limitation I'd think
May 18 23:12:17 <sunshavi> btw: n800 has better response as a bluetooth access point than n900, what's the reason for that
May 18 23:12:20 <sunshavi> ?
May 18 23:12:50 <DocScrutinizer05> if the camera-ui would allocate more ram to buffer multiple pictures and write them to storage while already taking next one, this would feel way more snappy
May 18 23:12:54 <sunshavi> connecting to an n900 (bluetooth access point) takes 10 seconds more than to an n800 bluetooth acess point
May 18 23:13:15 <DocScrutinizer05> BT access point? wth is that?
May 18 23:13:33 <sunshavi> is the best use I have gave to my n800
May 18 23:14:02 <DocScrutinizer05> nfc, never heard of it
May 18 23:14:19 <sunshavi> imagine droids being feeded internet by the n800. It is like a cavern man feeding an industrial man
May 18 23:14:38 <DocScrutinizer05> you lost me
May 18 23:15:10 <DocScrutinizer05> ~bt-pan
May 18 23:15:15 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm
May 18 23:15:29 <sunshavi> https://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN
May 18 23:15:31 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listkeys maemo*pan
May 18 23:15:32 <infobot> Factoid search of 'maemo*pan' by key (1): #maemo pan.
May 18 23:15:41 <DocScrutinizer05> ~pan
May 18 23:15:41 <infobot> i heard pan is https://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN
May 18 23:15:46 <sunshavi> yes. that's the answer
May 18 23:16:09 <DocScrutinizer05> never heard anybody calling that an access point
May 18 23:16:37 <DocScrutinizer05> it's rather a form of tethering in my book
May 18 23:17:00 <sunshavi> https://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN
May 18 23:17:16 <sunshavi> s/https://wiki.maemo.org/Bluetooth_PAN/https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=57529&p=466691/
May 18 23:17:58 <sunshavi> it is a more informal way of calling the PAN or NAP
May 18 23:18:24 <sunshavi> hey infobot did not replace my urls
May 18 23:18:49 <sunshavi> perhaps my urls need to be scaped
May 18 23:19:09 <sunshavi> s/scaped/escaped/
May 18 23:19:09 <infobot> sunshavi meant: perhaps my urls need to be escaped
May 18 23:24:48 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe simply posting the right url instead of trying to replace it while it contains delimiters/ would have been the smarter idea ;-) 
May 18 23:25:42 <DocScrutinizer05> infobot's sed function isn't, it's a simple strcmp based replacement without any flexibility
May 18 23:26:08 <sunshavi> ok, brb on 3h from now. 
May 18 23:26:13 <DocScrutinizer05> it however understands s///g
May 18 23:28:05 <DocScrutinizer05> regarding N800 being faster: I guess it has less gear to handle all different scenarios of internet connectivity
May 18 23:29:02 <DocScrutinizer05> and for sure it has a different BT chipset and firmware
May 18 23:30:03 * DocScrutinizer05 recalls tethering his N810 to a windows smartphone, to do mobile IRC
May 18 23:30:30 <DocScrutinizer05> dunno what been wrong with that siolution in the end
May 18 23:31:04 <DocScrutinizer05> prolly just that windows smartphone alone
May 18 23:41:28 * DocScrutinizer05 idly wonders what's the rationale to use an N800 to make an android smartphone
May 18 23:41:48 <DocScrutinizer05> acces the internet
May 19 01:02:02 <ds3> having used the O3, the O2 is painfully slow
May 19 02:48:51 <sunshavi> DocScrutinizer05: battery life is the answer, n800 even feeds my n900, and when no internet (cos of problems with the ISP), guess which device provides me a wifi network
May 19 02:51:43 <sunshavi> s/wifi/wireless/
May 19 02:51:43 <infobot> sunshavi meant: DocScrutinizer05: battery life is the answer, n800 even feeds my n900, and when no internet (cos of problems with the ISP), guess which device provides me a wireless network
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu May 19 02:59:59 2016