**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jul 22 02:59:58 2016 Jul 22 10:34:15 did someone try one of those magnetic microusb adapters on a n900? Jul 22 10:42:23 like-jr tried Jul 22 10:42:28 no good experience Jul 22 10:42:42 2 or 3 types Jul 22 10:48:02 epoxy ♥ Jul 22 10:49:44 his concern was that the piece didnt want to LEAVE the port Jul 22 10:49:46 hehe Jul 22 10:54:06 oh Jul 22 10:59:53 hai guise, I'm poking around for phones, platforms and their comunities Jul 22 11:00:14 go iphone Jul 22 11:00:41 I have a J2ME featurephone currently Jul 22 11:00:50 looking at the N9000 Jul 22 11:00:59 do you want www browsing? Jul 22 11:01:09 are you a hacker? Jul 22 11:01:15 do you love linux? Jul 22 11:01:28 if its N/Y/Y then go for it Jul 22 11:01:57 maybe/maybe/likely Jul 22 11:02:33 in short lack of featureful modern browser is a dealbreaker for most people Jul 22 11:02:51 simple sites work, but anything images/script heavy is just too much Jul 22 11:03:08 otherwise n900 is one of the best phones created Jul 22 11:03:25 I recently saw some newfangled doohickey called PocketCHIP which sparked off desire to have linux pocket PC with wifi Jul 22 11:03:27 https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hXDizTasY6A/maxresdefault.jpg Jul 22 11:03:36 but then I think to myself Jul 22 11:03:46 that keyboard is going to be shit Jul 22 11:03:51 pocketchip is nice, but extremely limited Jul 22 11:03:55 surely there are better things out there Jul 22 11:04:02 even more than n900 Jul 22 11:04:08 really? Jul 22 11:04:20 yup Jul 22 11:04:21 I was under impression that it has better CPU and double the RAM Jul 22 11:04:50 and a crummy design Jul 22 11:04:55 yes Jul 22 11:05:02 grab pandora if you are into such things Jul 22 11:05:04 the keyboard, just by looking at it Jul 22 11:06:28 what's one priced, roughly? Jul 22 11:06:53 I looked around for SH n900 Jul 22 11:07:00 roughly 100USD Jul 22 11:08:14 n900 can be obtained for ~20-30usd Jul 22 11:08:19 if you get good deal Jul 22 11:08:24 https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/pages/pyra/ tempting Jul 22 11:08:37 that's a relative of pandora Jul 22 11:09:16 ah, yes, meant pyra Jul 22 11:09:40 >Using a resistive touchscreen which allows a more accurate stylus. Jul 22 11:09:42 yes Jul 22 11:09:45 thank you Jul 22 11:09:53 I bloody hate capacitive screens Jul 22 11:10:17 but as i said, n900 can be had cheaply, and its very nice if you prefer linux Jul 22 11:10:36 so, what's Maemo 5 like? Jul 22 11:10:45 I see it still gets love today Jul 22 11:10:49 unlike, say Jul 22 11:10:54 Symbian or J2ME Jul 22 11:10:56 hahahaha Jul 22 11:11:14 linux Jul 22 11:11:17 seriously Jul 22 11:11:26 with some touch of touch friendliness Jul 22 11:11:33 so it's a fully fledged linux from the go, yes? Jul 22 11:11:39 yes Jul 22 11:11:50 stuck in 2.6.28 kernel and old glibc though Jul 22 11:12:09 good folks of maemo working on it to bring fully working mainline tho Jul 22 11:12:19 silly queschun, though Jul 22 11:12:31 does the n900 have any stylus of its own? Jul 22 11:12:37 yes Jul 22 11:12:39 good Jul 22 11:12:42 but anything works Jul 22 11:12:45 even a match Jul 22 11:12:45 yes Jul 22 11:12:47 or nail Jul 22 11:13:03 I like the idea of having place to park stylus, in the device Jul 22 11:13:11 just like the DS Jul 22 11:13:26 yes, but stylus is only for precise touching Jul 22 11:13:35 mostly i just only use my fingers Jul 22 11:14:18 It'd probably make a decent drawing tool Jul 22 11:15:20 if I wanted only that, I'd just get a Galaxy Note, with dem fancy Wacom digitizers Jul 22 11:15:25 it makes the best .. see youtube mypaint ;) Jul 22 11:16:59 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66RBfrBgL2E Jul 22 11:17:53 looks more than adequate Jul 22 11:19:11 the n900 is a desktop linux from 2008 Jul 22 11:19:24 what would coding C and compiling be like on this device? Jul 22 11:19:40 the n900 swaps on boot Jul 22 11:19:59 and has barely any space on the rootfs Jul 22 11:20:10 everything is installed on a separate partition and there's a hell of symlinks Jul 22 11:21:37 it's not a clean system at all Jul 22 11:21:59 of course not Jul 22 11:22:02 buy one if you find a decent deal and if you want to own a piece of computing history Jul 22 11:22:10 but nowadays, it's not a good smartphone Jul 22 11:23:12 if I can get something the likes of Opera Mini running, I be happy Jul 22 11:23:53 the default browser is based on gecko Jul 22 11:23:57 it's kinda old Jul 22 11:24:06 you can get a more recent firefox fennec (still old) from repos Jul 22 11:24:07 Opera Mini 7 runs Jul 22 11:25:04 so, in what way is PocketCHIP more limited than the n900 Jul 22 11:25:23 does the pocketchip even have a case Jul 22 11:25:50 https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hXDizTasY6A/maxresdefault.jpg Jul 22 11:26:09 the CHIP is the little core that plugs in the back Jul 22 11:26:18 that's not a case Jul 22 11:26:21 there's exposed contacts Jul 22 11:26:28 that will last a grand total of 3 minutes in a pocket Jul 22 11:26:43 eh, I worry about shit design later Jul 22 11:26:49 I asked question spec-wise Jul 22 11:27:02 chip has better specs of course Jul 22 11:27:14 and shittier keyboard Jul 22 11:27:15 haha Jul 22 11:28:04 the CHIP itself comes at 9USD Jul 22 11:28:17 but the PocketCHIP comes at 70USD Jul 22 11:28:19 +9USD shipping Jul 22 11:28:25 so it feels a bit Jul 22 11:28:26 +XXUSD for extras Jul 22 11:28:28 rippoff Jul 22 11:28:51 i don't believe the keyboard is in the $9 .. afaik the $9 is just the board? Jul 22 11:29:07 $9 is the small core Jul 22 11:29:10 the CHIP Jul 22 11:29:19 PC on a board Jul 22 11:29:43 yep Jul 22 11:30:53 maybe ripoff is not the right word Jul 22 11:30:57 cash-in Jul 22 11:32:33 I wonder what PalmOS is like these days Jul 22 11:32:39 community-wise Jul 22 11:33:02 symbian, super-ded Jul 22 11:33:09 winmo, ??? Jul 22 11:33:17 J2ME, ded Jul 22 11:35:54 catbutts, chip is 9$ + 20$ shipping :P Jul 22 11:35:58 dont believe the marketing Jul 22 11:36:23 at this point, the n900 looks the most tempting Jul 22 11:36:38 just dont get it at 100usd point Jul 22 11:36:44 look for 20-30 deals Jul 22 11:36:51 aye Jul 22 11:37:10 so, what other interesting maemo phones are there around Jul 22 11:37:20 watch out for: 1/ bad usb port, 2/ bad modem Jul 22 11:37:36 there are no other meaemo phones Jul 22 11:37:40 not yet Jul 22 11:37:50 there is neo900 project, but its in another price range Jul 22 11:40:00 >resistive dualtouch Jul 22 11:40:05 I'm curious Jul 22 11:40:15 it's like, the best of both worlds Jul 22 11:40:42 capacitive multi-touch and resistive precision Jul 22 11:40:49 ye the neo900 is unapproachable unless you're seriously dedicated Jul 22 11:41:59 eeeyup Jul 22 11:43:02 so, has anyone here try write and compile things on n900? Jul 22 11:44:41 i did Jul 22 11:44:47 i wrote me an audio player Jul 22 11:44:49 ~oscp Jul 22 11:44:49 it has been said that oscp is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94590 Jul 22 11:45:10 so you can use the phone as dev environment, yes Jul 22 11:45:42 you can, but its a tad slow Jul 22 11:45:53 i use arm based sbc board and compile in chroot Jul 22 11:46:01 its just linux, armel one Jul 22 11:46:23 I wrote actionscript on j2me phone with modded opera mini text editor while on vacation a few times Jul 22 11:46:29 could have been worse Jul 22 11:46:34 but not by much :P Jul 22 11:48:02 have you ever wrote linux app? Jul 22 11:49:29 not really, I am a stubborn windows user Jul 22 11:49:37 XP, to be exact Jul 22 11:49:42 7 is ok Jul 22 11:49:54 onwards past that, it's all downhill Jul 22 11:50:24 I wrote a python script for dd if that counts :P Jul 22 11:50:49 I religiously back up all my partitions once a month from a Puppy Linux Jul 22 11:50:59 win7 isnt that bad either Jul 22 12:19:16 http://blog.nextthing.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Crunch_Pocuolus-1024x576.jpg amazing Jul 22 12:20:21 http://blog.nextthing.co/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/P1440935-1024x576.jpg why so sad, PocketCHIP? Jul 22 12:20:22 hahaha Jul 22 12:29:10 ah, here's another question Jul 22 12:29:20 what's battery life like for the n900? Jul 22 12:30:04 ~1-2 weeks of standby Jul 22 12:30:12 really? Jul 22 12:30:21 few hours of constant use on wifi/lcd on Jul 22 12:30:41 joga: mine has 6 days of standby, and my battery is 7 years old ;) Jul 22 12:30:44 well, my battery is almost 7 years old by now I think, it lasts typical use for 1-2 days Jul 22 12:31:09 but would definitely not stay weeks on standby with all network connections off etc Jul 22 12:31:36 or if it did, probably just trying to do anything would immediately shut it down Jul 22 12:31:37 :) Jul 22 12:31:37 mine does, with gsm on Jul 22 12:32:40 I probably won't be needing gsm Jul 22 12:34:01 then you can buy one with broken modem chip Jul 22 12:34:07 should be dirt cheap Jul 22 12:38:06 I make assumption sunvox works on Maemo 5 Jul 22 12:39:14 ah, right, they have releases for Maemo Jul 22 12:42:53 as long it compiles with old libs, it works Jul 22 12:43:34 it's closed source, sorry Jul 22 12:44:04 but, now that you mention it, I need ask this for SDL2 Jul 22 12:44:18 if the answer is yes, I am set Jul 22 12:50:50 Just how difficult porting redshift is? https://packages.debian.org/wheezy/redshift Jul 22 12:53:02 uhllo Jul 22 12:53:11 Libxxf86vm1 is something to look at, libgconf2-4 vs libgconf-2-4 is confusing, gconf-service is also interesting Jul 22 12:54:46 Hello :-) Jul 22 12:55:19 you wouldn't happen know if SDL2 is a thing on maemo5, would you? Jul 22 12:55:47 http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/ Jul 22 12:56:11 i guess no one compiled it (yet) Jul 22 12:56:15 Nay, libsdl1.2 ? Jul 22 12:57:09 /me looks into present, Kot'Czarny shows possibility of future Jul 22 12:57:10 nope, sdl2 Jul 22 12:57:15 bummer Jul 22 12:57:26 CatButts: you can easily check if it compiles ok Jul 22 12:57:32 just install maemo sdk Jul 22 12:57:40 or download vm image Jul 22 12:57:50 I'd probably want to see if I can get device first Jul 22 12:57:58 to form an interest Jul 22 12:59:39 Device is easy to get, I think... Just do not try to put development environment onto it. RootFS can become full quickly. Jul 22 13:05:25 does the n900 charge from USB or separate jack? Jul 22 13:06:20 I got cheap sale advert saying the charging jack has defect Jul 22 13:06:28 MicroUSB, yes Jul 22 13:06:34 it's a trap, then Jul 22 13:07:09 Nokia N900 can have charging port easily breaking. Depends on how you treat the device. Jul 22 13:07:29 You can fix it before it becomes broken, too Jul 22 13:07:50 ~usbfix Jul 22 13:07:50 usbfix is probably http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=75920 - and **NEVER** use epoxy (unless you want to seal your device for underwater), or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz5nIHH0iY#t=1866, you will basically need two irons: a small good one (or better hot-air reflow) and a 60+ Watt Jul 22 13:10:06 yeah, I am not exactly confident in my surface-soldering skills Jul 22 13:10:21 and the only iron I have now is large, 100W one Jul 22 13:11:02 Close. i have a 60W one at home. Fortunately, there is a friendly makerspace close by Jul 22 13:11:47 and friendly smartass experts in this channel ;-P Jul 22 13:12:39 Glad to see you :-D going to sleep soon-ish Jul 22 13:12:45 eh, found for 50 USD Jul 22 13:12:52 not quite a bargain Jul 22 13:13:03 DocScrutinizer05: offhand, do you remember how low EDV1 is? Jul 22 13:16:13 3.2ish? Jul 22 13:16:16 3.4ish? Jul 22 13:16:17 ug, nope Jul 22 13:16:24 3.4ish Jul 22 13:16:33 but wait Jul 22 13:17:37 http://paste.opensuse.org/72364948 Jul 22 13:18:03 3.2ish, then Jul 22 13:18:11 0x77: 119 SEDVF Scaled EDVF Threshold R/W Jul 22 13:18:12 +0x100)*8 = 3000 mV (@ 0%) Jul 22 13:18:14 0x78: 150 SEDV1 Scaled EDV1 Threshold R/W Jul 22 13:18:15 +0x100)*8 = 3248 mV (@ 6.25%) Jul 22 13:19:52 3.4ish is bme bailout iitc Jul 22 13:20:14 which is the problem with learning cycles Jul 22 13:21:40 i wonder if the bme replacement also bails out at 3.4 Jul 22 13:21:46 or if it waits a bit after EDV1 Jul 22 13:21:50 istr it waits Jul 22 13:22:42 bme replacement iirc waits for EDV1 :-) Jul 22 13:23:22 and hopefully then 60s more Jul 22 13:23:29 ask pali Jul 22 13:25:08 yay i has a calibration Jul 22 13:25:14 Redshift depends on libgconf-2-4, which depends on libglib2.0-0 > 2.31.0 , which is a problem (2.24.1 on maemo 5). In short, compile redshift for maemo 5, because libraries have entirely stilted versions of libraries Jul 22 13:25:58 /me goes to sleep; good time of day to everybody Jul 22 13:26:09 buh bye Jul 22 13:26:11 Last Measured Discharge (LMD): 1240.7535 mAh Jul 22 13:26:17 calibrated at max brightness Jul 22 13:26:42 (200mA) Jul 22 13:34:32 kerio: wow Jul 22 13:35:12 battery wear&tear: 5% Jul 22 13:35:52 or nokia would say (N9) "battery health: 95%" Jul 22 13:49:10 * CatButts vanishes into a cloud of farts Jul 22 14:56:04 DocScrutinizer05: it's a polarcell Jul 22 14:59:25 aah those seem pretty good cells Jul 22 14:59:53 http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/mod-support/ Jul 22 15:00:04 though I got one (unknown history) as donation, and that was pretty much zombie Jul 22 15:00:18 where's the sourcecode for this so I can incessantly bitch if it's based on MikMod :P Jul 22 15:00:30 huh? Jul 22 15:01:06 http://maemo.org/packages/ Jul 22 15:01:22 http://maemo.org/packages/view/mod-support/ Jul 22 15:01:46 don't bitch, help! Jul 22 15:03:58 >depends: gstreamer0.10-modplug (>= 0.10.13), libmodplug0c2 (>= 0.8.7), tracker-distutils, tracker-extractor-mod (>= 0.2) Jul 22 15:04:05 ah, phew Jul 22 15:04:42 though, I suppose libmodplug could be replaced with newer libopenmpt Jul 22 15:05:00 catbutts: if you want module player, just use my oscp :P Jul 22 15:05:13 I want a phone before hand Jul 22 15:05:18 better interface too Jul 22 15:05:22 and works on pc Jul 22 15:05:47 when I got a phone and like it, I can start crafting Jul 22 15:08:34 well, you can check the module player already Jul 22 15:08:38 maybe you will like it Jul 22 15:09:12 does it have plugin arhitecture? Jul 22 15:09:29 yes, but not exposed Jul 22 15:09:45 ie. i've tried to make it monolithic, no depps, file hassle etc Jul 22 15:09:50 one file to play them all Jul 22 15:10:12 oh Jul 22 15:10:29 so to add plugin, you have to recompile whole player, yes? Jul 22 15:10:49 yes, but it already plays more than you might need Jul 22 15:11:48 >uade integrated Jul 22 15:11:49 neat Jul 22 15:13:29 and i prefer libxmp over libmodplug Jul 22 15:15:20 I am contemplating making a tracker on PC for some obscure music format whose replayer I got my grubby paws on(read, reversing) Jul 22 15:15:42 having a tiny device to conveniently carry around and have that tool on is also a plus Jul 22 15:15:45 format name? Jul 22 15:15:56 Jaytrax/Syntrax Jul 22 15:16:13 never heard of Jul 22 15:16:39 I met it on Symbian as Syntrax Jul 22 15:17:07 could never use tracker properly because it was S60v3 app running on S60v5 Jul 22 15:17:15 v3 is keys, v5 is touch Jul 22 15:17:28 Syntrax used virtual, key-controlled mouse Jul 22 15:18:52 so that's two levels of unusability, stacked Jul 22 15:20:19 then I found a flash port of the replayer, and my slightly unhealthy penchant for this tool grew from that moment forward :P Jul 22 15:22:55 I took it apart, cleaned and bugfixed, eventually ported back to C, where it awaits me getting off my arse and building a tracker Jul 22 15:23:29 oh, one important detail about the n900 I need to know Jul 22 15:23:36 float and double support Jul 22 15:24:14 for the CPU Jul 22 15:24:58 cortex-a8 Jul 22 15:27:05 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_Cortex-A8#Features Jul 22 15:27:09 >VFP Jul 22 15:27:10 yes Jul 22 15:27:45 double too Jul 22 20:16:32 [ 14.368233] sunxidrm: exports duplicate symbol dsi_dcs_rd (owned by kernel) Jul 22 20:17:39 not a stellar code quality Jul 22 20:56:35 * DocScrutinizer05 thinks that in 90% of cases where they are used, floats are used for no good reason at all and you'd be *way* better of using uint32 Jul 22 20:56:43 err int32 Jul 22 20:56:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJn39Tt8EJo unrelated Jul 22 20:58:14 ...you'd be *way* better off using int32 or even int64 Jul 22 21:07:32 DocScrutinizer05: what if i'm doing numerical analysis :< Jul 22 21:07:43 well i don't use float32 Jul 22 21:07:48 only poor people do that Jul 22 21:10:49 sorry, I can't take you serious. You got to know what datatype you need for which problem to solve. I just can say that floats of all kinds more often than not are used out of mere laziness or incompetence, and then impose a massive workload on CPU/FPU for no reason, while same time usually even introducing errors to your algo since many coders don't grok that you never compare floats for equality Jul 22 21:17:25 well if you're doing any differential equation solving you want floats of some kind Jul 22 21:17:51 and it's almost always doubles if you're running on a cpu or float32 if you're coding for a gpu Jul 22 21:18:06 unless you're seriously constrained in space, or something Jul 22 21:18:44 so? Jul 22 21:19:33 why would anyone actually use floats when dealing with ints, anyway? Jul 22 21:19:51 huh? Jul 22 21:20:31 a kind of a vague question Jul 22 21:20:32 but Jul 22 21:21:14 rough estimate, how much would be saved in heavy computations when using floats instead of doubles Jul 22 21:21:36 355 Jul 22 21:21:44 I realize this answer depends on the CPU Jul 22 21:22:01 CatButts: you save on memory access Jul 22 21:22:06 but you actually *add* overhead on the cpu Jul 22 21:22:12 and on the actual type of "heavy calculation" Jul 22 21:22:37 unless you're doing vectorized operations perhaps Jul 22 21:22:59 but modern CPUs will actually convert the floats to long doubles to operate on them, internally Jul 22 21:23:21 OMAP3 is no "modern CPU" Jul 22 21:23:39 yeah i wonder how the FPU operates Jul 22 21:24:00 slow ;-) Jul 22 21:24:11 and energy hungry Jul 22 21:25:01 apparently the FPU on the omap3 is optimized for single precision floats Jul 22 21:25:27 I guess it depends on whether you use vfp or neon.. I forget if omap3 has both, but I think it does? Jul 22 21:25:38 ah yes Jul 22 21:25:41 neon is fp32 Jul 22 21:25:56 where does Cortex A8 stand? Jul 22 21:26:01 oh Jul 22 21:26:05 >vf3 Jul 22 21:26:07 >vfp Jul 22 21:26:09 >vfp3 Jul 22 21:26:20 And in theory you're able to execute neon and regular arm in parallell, though they share the same decoder Jul 22 21:27:04 what if I just replace all the float/double math with int and bit magic Jul 22 21:27:07 hahahahahaha Jul 22 21:35:02 i wonder what's going to be the first portable device with a nvidia pascal gpu Jul 22 21:35:15 then your calculations will speed up significantly Jul 22 21:35:29 a laptop, for certain definitions of "portable" Jul 22 21:35:55 Pascal will show up in tegra too eventually, though nobody is using Tegra for portable devices anymore Jul 22 21:35:59 so you're telling me to go ahead with replacing float math with int math and bit magic? Jul 22 21:36:01 hi ShadowJK, long time no see Jul 22 21:36:05 hello Jul 22 21:36:05 i want a lappy with a desktop gtx 1080 :< Jul 22 21:36:06 uhllo Jul 22 21:36:24 I have a laptop with the equivalent of desktop gtx 970 Jul 22 21:36:36 (gtx 980m) Jul 22 21:36:50 DocScrutinizer05: 7W when idling is totally fine right Jul 22 21:37:13 kerio, they made laptops with desktop gtx 980, so why not :) Jul 22 21:37:15 kerio: please don't ask me such questions that nobody can answer Jul 22 21:37:30 ShadowJK: surely the equivalent of a desktop gtx 970 is a gtx 970 Jul 22 21:37:36 which is a thing that they did put in laptops Jul 22 21:37:57 for a Boing 747 a 7W in idling are great Jul 22 21:38:19 and it's only 173W average when on load Jul 22 21:38:20 My house idles at about 150W Jul 22 21:38:31 for your average car it's probably already on the heavy side Jul 22 21:38:35 oh so slightly less than a gtx 1080 :D Jul 22 21:38:46 surely we can fit a gtx 1080 in the neo900 somehow Jul 22 21:39:27 I'd rather try to fit 3 Neo900 into a GTX1080 Jul 22 21:39:45 a gtx 1080 can probably emulate 3 neo900s Jul 22 21:40:02 not probably Jul 22 21:40:18 well, gpus are pretty bad at normal computing stuff Jul 22 21:40:33 nope, that depends Jul 22 21:40:34 and you've got a bunch of different processors running at different clock speeds Jul 22 21:40:54 emulating a super nintendo *accurately* takes about 3ghz of a normal modern CPU :D Jul 22 21:42:58 but yeah a gtx 1080 can probably bruteforce the shit out of an omap3 emulator and get out fine Jul 22 21:43:15 >>install base obviously<