**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Sep 04 02:59:58 2016
Sep 04 06:27:48 <Maxdamantus> CatButts: XChat development has basically continued under the name HexChat btw
Sep 04 06:28:07 <CatButts> am aware
Sep 04 06:35:41 <KotCzarny> maxd: they should've named it xchat-ng
Sep 04 06:35:48 <KotCzarny> or xchat3
Sep 04 06:36:09 <Maxdamantus> I imagine that might've been an issue if the XChat maintainer reappeared.
Sep 04 06:36:12 <CatButts> it was named Xchat-WDK, prior to rename
Sep 04 06:36:18 <KotCzarny> changing first letter makes it invisible for people trying to install xchat
Sep 04 06:38:11 <bencoh> well they could just mention "xchat fork" in description and people will see it in search
Sep 04 06:38:35 <bencoh> and actually "hexchat" might actually match already
Sep 04 06:38:50 <Maxdamantus> * net-irc/hexchat
Sep 04 06:38:50 <Maxdamantus>      Description:         Graphical IRC client based on XChat
Sep 04 06:38:53 <Maxdamantus> in portage.
Sep 04 06:38:55 <KotCzarny> bencoh, still,most people wouldnt find it, and actually installing old xchat would say 'f-it, it kinda works'
Sep 04 06:39:27 <KotCzarny> or would imagine its some hackish thing
Sep 04 06:39:39 <Maxdamantus> I imagine `apt-cache search xchat` should still find it anyway.
Sep 04 06:39:48 <Maxdamantus> since "hexchat".substr(2) == "xchat"
Sep 04 06:40:07 <KotCzarny> you are right, it showed 
Sep 04 06:40:34 <KotCzarny> still, average joe accustomed to xchat dont know xchat is not developed anymore
Sep 04 06:40:54 <bencoh> tbh I didn't
Sep 04 06:41:16 <bencoh> haven't used it for yrars anyway
Sep 04 06:41:37 * Maxdamantus used to use it.
Sep 04 06:41:49 * Maxdamantus changed to irssi in around 2009.
Sep 04 06:42:22 <KotCzarny> last change is from 2013
Sep 04 06:42:27 <KotCzarny> on svn
Sep 04 06:42:44 <KotCzarny> in plugins dir
Sep 04 06:42:48 <KotCzarny> and in src
Sep 04 06:43:38 <KotCzarny> 2.8.10 - dd/mm/yyyy
Sep 04 06:43:40 <KotCzarny> he he
Sep 04 06:45:13 <KotCzarny> similarly, last assigned bug is from 2013. andthere are lots of bugs as old as 2003 ;)
Sep 04 06:46:08 <KotCzarny> HexChat (formerly XChat-WDK), cross-platform fork which adds various features
Sep 04 06:46:18 <KotCzarny> oh, they had such name in the beginning
Sep 04 06:47:57 <KotCzarny> on afunny note, hex is a namefor a medieval curse 
Sep 04 06:48:58 <CatButts> I'm still using ye olde Xchat
Sep 04 06:49:19 <CatButts> the one thing that prevents me from switching is that I've yet to port my black theme to it
Sep 04 06:49:43 <KotCzarny> shouldnt it use system (gtk+) colors ?
Sep 04 06:50:35 <CatButts> Xchat relies on gtkrc file in same folder, for my installation
Sep 04 06:51:05 <KotCzarny> my whole system uses ~/.gtkrc-2.0 orsomething
Sep 04 06:51:28 <CatButts> unfortunatelly, the file has strings in it that seem xchat specific
Sep 04 06:52:04 <CatButts> http://pastebin.com/aCp7yQyQ
Sep 04 06:52:16 <CatButts> this theme is going to need some beating into shape
Sep 04 06:52:24 <CatButts> if I can figure out how
Sep 04 06:53:01 <KotCzarny> just merge it into system wide theme
Sep 04 06:53:10 <CatButts> naw
Sep 04 06:53:25 <KotCzarny> you are theming wildcard widgets, so it should work
Sep 04 06:53:47 <KotCzarny> seriously, just append it at the end
Sep 04 06:53:47 <CatButts> also, I should mention I am on Windows
Sep 04 06:53:51 <CatButts> XP even
Sep 04 06:55:54 <CatButts> few apps I have even use GTK
Sep 04 08:31:39 <_maniac_> what happened to telegram-purple package? I remember having it on my old n900
Sep 04 08:36:34 <ginggs> this one? http://maemo.org/packages/view/purple-protocol-telegram/
Sep 04 08:37:20 <_maniac_> probably yeah. I dont see it in my fapman.
Sep 04 08:38:12 <bencoh> extras-devel?
Sep 04 08:38:32 <bencoh> it works, btw. but you can't add contacts from pidgin UI
Sep 04 08:38:49 <bencoh> (I had to add them by editing pidgin xml conf file)
Sep 04 08:39:11 <_maniac_> extras-devel enabled. and yeah I remember it working.
Sep 04 08:39:39 <_maniac_> probably fapman too busy fapping and not seeing updates.
Sep 04 08:40:04 <bencoh> err wait, why do you use fapman?
Sep 04 08:40:26 <bencoh> you're supposed to use the new fast HAM foss replacement
Sep 04 08:41:48 <_maniac_> where do I get one? because having repositories config in several places sucks.
Sep 04 08:42:56 <bencoh> do you use cssu?
Sep 04 08:43:23 <_maniac_> yes, but not testing
Sep 04 08:43:46 <bencoh> iirc new HAM is in latest -stable
Sep 04 08:43:52 <_maniac_> hem
Sep 04 08:43:57 <bencoh> if not, I'd suggest cherry-picking it
Sep 04 08:44:07 <Maxdamantus> apt-get is reasonably fast.
Sep 04 08:44:25 <bencoh> yeah I don't use ham either ;)
Sep 04 08:44:26 <_maniac_> true
Sep 04 08:45:19 <_maniac_> but to use apt-get I need to put repoitories in YET ANOTHER PLACE
Sep 04 08:46:09 <bencoh> no ....
Sep 04 08:46:11 <Maxdamantus> Doesn't HAM/speedyHAM just use some aptitude library? Meh, dunno.
Sep 04 08:46:23 <bencoh> _maniac_: apt-get and HAM use the same files
Sep 04 08:46:43 <bencoh> I dont know about fap, but that thing is broken anyway
Sep 04 08:46:46 <bencoh> ~fapman
Sep 04 08:46:47 <infobot> methinks fapman is Faster Application Manager, a frontend for apt which uses own repositories catalog, and shouldn't be used to do system upgrades (like CSSU), or actually for anything since ~speedyHAM. It also does "apt-get autoremove" after every operation, by default. In short, it's been identified as source of system corruption and thus deprecated, or see ~hamvsfam
Sep 04 08:50:14 <Maxdamantus> orcus:~# ldd /usr/libexec/apt-worker
Sep 04 08:50:14 <Maxdamantus>         libapt-pkg-libc6.5-6.so.4.6 => /usr/lib/libapt-pkg-libc6.5-6.so.4.6 (0x40121000)
Sep 04 08:50:55 <Maxdamantus> Same thing referred to by apt-get. They should use the code.
Sep 04 08:51:42 <_maniac_> oh ok. thank you for clearing this. 
Sep 04 08:51:54 <Maxdamantus> the same code*
Sep 04 08:52:07 <Maxdamantus> (and thus resolve information using the same configuration files)
Sep 04 08:52:46 <_maniac_> I am having !FUN! with maemo again since 2013. my knowledge might be outdated.
Sep 04 08:59:19 <_maniac_> heh. it installs telegram-purple.so to /
Sep 04 08:59:40 <KotCzarny> lol
Sep 04 09:25:15 <bencoh> yeah this package is a tiny bit ... broken :/
Sep 04 09:26:14 <bencoh> oh, totalizator is idling in this channel
Sep 04 09:26:22 <bencoh> ~seen totalizator 
Sep 04 09:26:25 <infobot> totalizator is currently on #maemo (3d 3h 4m 24s), last said: 'something is broken with this scrobbler anyways'.
Sep 04 09:26:48 <bencoh> totalizator: do you have a git for telegram-purple?
Sep 04 09:27:00 <bencoh> with your maemo-specific changes, and debian/ folder?
Sep 04 09:27:11 <totalizator> yaawn, oh hello
Sep 04 09:27:28 <totalizator> I do not, plus I'm not responsible for the latest build
Sep 04 09:28:15 <totalizator> so I guess that all my work (simply altering a few lines) is rather deprecated
Sep 04 09:28:31 <princefakhan> Is there something wrong with the WhatsApp purple plug-in? 
Sep 04 09:28:43 <princefakhan> Why hasn't it been ported to Maemo? 
Sep 04 09:29:37 <totalizator> princefakhan: I remember building it for someone but I have not tested it
Sep 04 09:30:15 <totalizator> there is (was) no password in WhatsApp so it involved a bit of hacking your android config 
Sep 04 09:31:01 <bencoh> totalizator: aww :/
Sep 04 09:31:07 <princefakhan> You need to use wart for registering, right? 
Sep 04 09:31:30 <bencoh> princefakhan: purple-whatsapp is no longer maintained
Sep 04 09:31:39 <bencoh> because of recent whatsapp aggressive behavior iirc
Sep 04 09:31:45 <bencoh> s/iirc/afaict/
Sep 04 09:31:45 <infobot> bencoh meant: because of recent whatsapp aggressive behavior afaict
Sep 04 09:31:59 <bencoh> just like ceene stopped working on yappari
Sep 04 09:32:41 <princefakhan> Yeah. I was Binging WhatsApp on Linux 2 days back. 
Sep 04 09:32:45 <bencoh> totalizator: do you know who uploaded that new package then?
Sep 04 09:33:01 <princefakhan> The FirefoxOS fellows had some pretty neat options
Sep 04 09:33:12 <bencoh> I guess I should just try and build a working one and push it to extras, then
Sep 04 09:33:28 <bencoh> because it's a mess as of now :/
Sep 04 09:33:54 <totalizator> bencoh: sure - it's maacruz
Sep 04 09:34:30 <princefakhan> Btw, anyone has any experience on flashing N900 on win10? 
Sep 04 09:34:44 <princefakhan> Or should I fire up my VM? 
Sep 04 09:38:39 <bencoh> I wouldn't do anything n900-related from windows, but ... your call :)
Sep 04 09:45:07 <princefakhan> It has worked before. I last flashed cssu via win8.1
Sep 04 09:45:33 <princefakhan> But the system is not reading the device now. 
Sep 04 09:45:48 <princefakhan> And I can't seem to enter flashing mode. 
Sep 04 09:46:09 <bencoh> does it show as a usb device?
Sep 04 09:47:18 <princefakhan> No. 
Sep 04 09:47:39 <princefakhan> Maybe it's the usb cable or the N900's Own usb port
Sep 04 09:47:52 <princefakhan> I don't have a spare one to check. 
Sep 04 09:49:22 <princefakhan> Actually, the device was working fine. I ran apt-get upgrade and I guess it messed up with boot menu
Sep 04 09:49:32 <princefakhan> Now it's stuck at the Nokia logo
Sep 04 09:50:42 <princefakhan> BootMenu loads but as I select an option it will restart after few seconds 
Sep 04 10:10:25 <Hurrian> >bootmenu
Sep 04 10:10:26 <Hurrian> Oh boy.
Sep 04 11:43:46 <KotCzarny> ~bootmenu
Sep 04 11:43:51 <KotCzarny> ~ping
Sep 04 11:43:51 <infobot> ~pong
Sep 04 16:58:43 <DocScrutinizer05> https://twitter.com/ascherbaum/status/771392009185718272  >>OH: "Took us 30 years to fix all the bugs [in Unix/Linux]. It took #systemd less than a year to reintroduce them all again."<<
Sep 04 16:58:49 <DocScrutinizer05> Pali: ^^^
Sep 04 16:59:20 <Pali> fuck
Sep 04 17:00:29 <DocScrutinizer05> nice plain variant of >>those who don't understand unix...<<
Sep 04 17:04:12 <bencoh> :/
Sep 04 17:04:38 <KotCzarny> longsleep: https://twitter.com/ascherbaum/status/771392009185718272
Sep 04 17:05:01 <KotCzarny> eh, wrong chan
Sep 04 17:07:24 <DocScrutinizer05> had a funny day killing systemd ntp syslog spam ( LogLevel=err:  http://paste.opensuse.org/8455019 -finally-> http://paste.opensuse.org/55424121) and finding out about .socket crap (http://paste.opensuse.org/63196025) - systemd "solves real problems" and "everything is so much easier with systemd" BWAHAHA
Sep 04 17:08:12 <DocScrutinizer05> http://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/166639/how-to-disable-systemds-time-has-been-changed-message-spam-in-systemd-journal
Sep 04 17:10:44 <DocScrutinizer05> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp-u2F2WAAA7NVk.jpg:large
Sep 04 17:12:11 <DocScrutinizer05> on a brighter note: http://images.linoxide.com/systemd-vs-sysVinit-cheatsheet.jpg
Sep 04 21:29:13 <wnd> At work, we're using Puppet to manage production servers. In one of the environments all nodes are using SystemD. Once in a while when nginx configuration changes, nginx ends up stopped, but according to SystemD it's active(stopped) or something like that. As much as I'd like to blame this solely on SystemD, I also wonder is Puppet really is sending stop/start. Still, SystemD believes everything is fine.
Sep 04 21:35:35 <DocScrutinizer05> seen that on something around web too, yes
Sep 04 21:36:00 <DocScrutinizer05> con't recall details, ask dos1
Sep 04 21:36:21 <DocScrutinizer05> but might be exactly same issue - just without puppet
Sep 04 21:38:19 <DocScrutinizer05> systemdoom solves the problems nobody has, while introducing age old new ones nobody needs
Sep 04 21:40:05 <DocScrutinizer05> and it's 'conveniently' mutually exclusive to all other possible options, so nobody can choose to opt out
Sep 04 21:40:47 <DocScrutinizer05> unless you spin an effort like devuan, which is for sure a massive and daunting task
Sep 04 21:41:02 <_maniac_> wnd: you should see nginx receiving signals in its error log.
Sep 04 21:44:58 <_maniac_> to be honest, integrated solution like systemd *sounds* good for small devices (like n900) where you might need its features like starting services waiting for dbus socket even before dbus.
Sep 04 21:45:46 <DocScrutinizer05> small devices benefit from modularization, not from monolithic monsters like systemd
Sep 04 21:45:50 <_maniac_> e.g. systemd would be good if it wasn't systemd - broken pile of code that works just enough of time to justify mass adoption.
Sep 04 21:47:18 <KotCzarny> things in linux grow as a small projects, coexist with existent solutions, then if they are interesting/working/enough people consider them stable, get promoted into primary function doers
Sep 04 21:47:19 <DocScrutinizer05> I never thought messybox was a smart choice for maemo5 - but systemdoom is messybox^4
Sep 04 21:47:22 <KotCzarny> systemd was rushed
Sep 04 21:47:41 <KotCzarny> and its pushed more and more down the linux community throat
Sep 04 21:48:44 <DocScrutinizer05> and yes, Nokia already messed up stuff with partitioning and mounting, regarding /usr. But with systemd that would have been mandatory
Sep 04 21:48:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ~optification
Sep 04 21:48:49 <infobot> optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"
Sep 04 21:50:58 <_maniac_> heh
Sep 04 21:56:11 <DocScrutinizer05> this guy knows *exactly* what he's talking about: https://twitter.com/ascherbaum/status/771392009185718272
Sep 04 21:57:22 <DocScrutinizer05> freedesktop, gnome and the systemd cabal have no damn clue about the concepts behind a decent OS like unix
Sep 04 21:58:31 <DocScrutinizer05> or maybe they even do and deliberately ignore any mandatory sane consequences since those don't match their own agenda
Sep 04 21:59:39 <DocScrutinizer05> unholy alliance between RH and Suse
Sep 04 22:00:21 <DocScrutinizer05> both crafting their long term business model for the next 30 years
Sep 04 22:03:45 <DocScrutinizer05> appshops backed by trusted computing and secure boot, on a system basically too complex for any single person to maintain it:
Sep 04 22:03:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd
Sep 04 22:03:50 <infobot> systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, H. Hoyer, D. Mack, T. Gundersen, D. Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel. See ~nosystemd"
Sep 04 22:05:47 <DocScrutinizer05> >>This is going to be a longer story, so better grab a cold bottle of Club Mate before you start reading.<<  no, better grab a bottle of rum or vodka, you'll need it
Sep 04 22:13:17 <DocScrutinizer05> read >>* Since there are so many different distributions...<< and >>* The distributions are actually quite different...<< and >>* Developing software for a number of distributions and versions is hard...<< and >>* Since most downstream distributions have strict licensing and trademark requirements<< and you get an idea which idea of >"One Ring to rule them all..." and to make *our* (distro maintainers') life more easy, and let us earn 
Sep 04 22:13:19 <DocScrutinizer05> truckloads of money< concept they're pursuing
Sep 04 22:15:30 <DocScrutinizer05> actually each single sentence is an insult: >>The toolbox approach of classic Linux distributions is fantastic for people who want to put together their individual system, nicely adjusted to exactly what they need. However, this is not really how many of today's Linux systems are built<<
Sep 04 22:18:36 <_maniac_> ok. I think it was asked before many times, but I wasn't there. How much effort is needed to turn maemo into a proper linux?
Sep 04 22:18:38 <DocScrutinizer05> >>you don't install or remove packages, you get a defined set of files, and besides installing or updating the system there are no ways how to change the set of tools you get.<< -- calling *this* a ``major use-case of Linux´´ makes me want to beat up somebody
Sep 04 22:18:54 <DocScrutinizer05> maemo IS proper linus
Sep 04 22:19:00 <KotCzarny> maniac: define 'proper'
Sep 04 22:19:01 <DocScrutinizer05> linux even
Sep 04 22:19:23 <_maniac_> where I don't get surprised by files locations
Sep 04 22:19:28 <_maniac_> (at least)
Sep 04 22:19:28 <KotCzarny> if you mean 'current' or 'updated to newest libs' it needs some things patched/RE in kernel
Sep 04 22:19:49 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm, I get surprised by file locations from ubuntu systems
Sep 04 22:20:01 <KotCzarny> but applies to your case too, because right now its tied to some proprietary packages/drivers
Sep 04 22:20:51 <DocScrutinizer05> ls -lR /|less plus a rainy sunday afternoon and a huge pot of tea and cookies goes a looong way
Sep 04 22:20:52 <_maniac_> ok, yes. your 'define "proper"' makes me shut up and think.
Sep 04 22:27:11 <DocScrutinizer05> I thinl "proper" is pretty simple to define: just see how many lines-of-code (in percent of total) you need to change in arbitrary - say - debian packages to make them run on the system under test
Sep 04 22:28:07 <DocScrutinizer05> aiui you can compile >90% of debian packages with no changes at all and they'll just work under maemo
Sep 04 22:28:30 <DocScrutinizer05> sure you usually want to hildonize the GUI
Sep 04 22:28:33 <KotCzarny> proper is sticking to *nix digma: do one thing, but do it perfect
Sep 04 22:28:53 <DocScrutinizer05> but I seem to recall I also have seen KDE running on N900
Sep 04 22:29:06 <KotCzarny> and building os from those little bits that work perfectly
Sep 04 22:29:17 <Wizzup> I don't think KDE would be usable on a n900.
Sep 04 22:29:33 <DocScrutinizer05> usable is another cettle of fish
Sep 04 22:30:46 <DocScrutinizer05> tbh KDE was barely usable on my CF-27 with its 192MB RAM and a P-II300
Sep 04 22:31:25 <DocScrutinizer05> was it running a proper linux? heck yes
Sep 04 22:31:51 <DocScrutinizer05> err CF-25 that been
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Sep 05 02:59:58 2016