**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 09 02:59:58 2016
Oct 09 05:05:09 <sicelo> :)
Oct 09 05:32:39 <sunshavi> buZz: how much was it?
Oct 09 05:34:18 <buZz> i paid 20 gbp + shipping
Oct 09 05:34:25 <buZz> he was asking 60 gbp iirc
Oct 09 05:35:15 <sunshavi> 60 gbp in dollars?
Oct 09 05:35:32 <buZz> no in gbp :P
Oct 09 05:35:42 <buZz> 74.62 US Dollar
Oct 09 05:35:50 <sunshavi> nice price
Oct 09 05:36:15 <sunshavi> i have been using for several years my n800
Oct 09 05:36:16 <buZz> i didnt want to go over 50 so lowballed
Oct 09 05:36:24 <sunshavi> last month i switched to n900
Oct 09 05:36:30 <buZz> yeah n800 was my first maemo device
Oct 09 05:36:40 <buZz> but just .. last year? hmm
Oct 09 05:36:50 <sunshavi> last month
Oct 09 05:37:05 <buZz> yeah i mean, i didnt have maemos before a year ago
Oct 09 05:37:08 <sunshavi> n800 was my always on machine
Oct 09 05:37:46 <sunshavi> i used it for listening streams, fm radio, as a bluetooth access point
Oct 09 05:38:01 <sunshavi> but after a month it needed a reboot
Oct 09 05:38:16 <sunshavi> n810 has more mem, that is nice
Oct 09 05:38:24 <buZz> and the keyboard
Oct 09 05:38:36 <sunshavi> n800 is what i have been using for irc
Oct 09 05:38:56 <sunshavi> now, all those functions are done by the n900
Oct 09 05:39:31 <sunshavi> yeah, keyboard is nice too
Oct 09 05:40:01 <sunshavi> would n810 kbd be better than n900 kbd?
Oct 09 05:40:08 <sunshavi> do you own an n900?
Oct 09 05:40:49 <buZz> not yet
Oct 09 05:41:26 <sunshavi> ok, then later You could tell which one is better :)
Oct 09 06:28:02 <DocScrutinizer05> I think N810 kbd is better
Oct 09 06:28:19 <DocScrutinizer05> meh he left
Oct 09 06:32:07 <CatButts> someday n900, someday...
Oct 09 06:33:38 <CatButts> maybe when I get my first salary
Oct 09 06:33:43 <Vajb> i liked e90 keyboard (i know it is not maemo device but meh)
Oct 09 06:34:39 <Vajb> and only problem with n900 keyboard is disappearing signs (physical wear)
Oct 09 06:37:07 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed
Oct 09 06:38:48 <CatButts> that doesn't sound very nice
Oct 09 06:40:02 <CatButts> oh, speaking of keyboards
Oct 09 06:40:14 <CatButts> how does the n900 one ghost?
Oct 09 06:40:39 <CatButts> I had a chingchong usb keyboard that could do 3, maybe 4 keys at once
Oct 09 06:40:58 <CatButts> now I have an old hp one which ghosts past 2 keys
Oct 09 06:41:13 <Vajb> ghost?
Oct 09 06:41:32 <CatButts> when you press more keys at once, only part of them are registered
Oct 09 06:41:35 <Vajb> u mean when u type something signs don't appear instantly?
Oct 09 06:41:39 <Vajb> ah
Oct 09 06:41:54 <Vajb> well at least maemo has 3-key combinations
Oct 09 06:41:56 <CatButts> I use PC keyboard as makeshift piano keys
Oct 09 06:42:07 <CatButts> 3 should be enough
Oct 09 06:42:50 <Vajb> i think i game across with that problem with ms wireless keyb while playing frets on fire
Oct 09 06:43:00 <Vajb> err came across*
Oct 09 06:43:39 <bencoh> pressing 3 keys at the same time on n900 isn't exactly ... comfortable
Oct 09 06:44:05 <CatButts> haha yeah, forgot to factor in the size
Oct 09 06:44:16 <Vajb> bencoh: but the question wasn't about that ;)
Oct 09 06:45:01 <bencoh> sure
Oct 09 06:45:38 <bencoh> as for ghosting there are a few combinations that won't work properly
Oct 09 06:46:27 <Vajb> can admit that with ctrl+shift one needs to use something else than just thumbs....
Oct 09 07:08:02 <KotCzarny> nokia 5510 kb was pretty nice to use
Oct 09 07:08:16 <KotCzarny> imo much better than n810/n900
Oct 09 07:08:33 <KotCzarny> (hw kb wise)
Oct 09 07:08:57 <KotCzarny> better spacing, more thumb typing friendly, more keys
Oct 09 07:09:02 <bencoh> hmm, dunno
Oct 09 07:09:24 <KotCzarny> and it actually had spacing between keys, do you wouldnt press 2 at the time by mistake
Oct 09 07:09:25 <bencoh> it was nice alright
Oct 09 07:09:42 <KotCzarny> s/do you/so you/
Oct 09 07:09:43 <infobot> KotCzarny meant: and it actually had spacing between keys, so you wouldnt press 2 at the time by mistake
Oct 09 07:15:06 <Vajb> 5510? Was it the device where the screen was inbetween rows of keys?
Oct 09 07:15:12 <KotCzarny> yup
Oct 09 07:15:20 <KotCzarny> and had hw mp3 player
Oct 09 07:15:24 <KotCzarny> with 64mb of flash
Oct 09 07:15:26 <KotCzarny> :)
Oct 09 07:15:34 <KotCzarny> (otherwise it was pretty standard 3310
Oct 09 07:15:38 <Vajb> right. Here they marketed it as "sms'er phone"
Oct 09 07:15:47 <KotCzarny> yup. and it delivered
Oct 09 07:15:47 <bencoh> and fm radio .... 64MB was pretty low btw
Oct 09 07:15:52 <KotCzarny> typing on it was a prleasure
Oct 09 07:16:08 <Vajb> never had one
Oct 09 07:16:13 <bencoh> and sms were still pretty costly at that time, so ....
Oct 09 07:16:32 <Vajb> so it was great marketing
Oct 09 07:16:44 <KotCzarny> i still have one in the closet
Oct 09 07:16:52 <Vajb> it supported long sms too?
Oct 09 07:16:53 <KotCzarny> flash went buh-bye by itslef
Oct 09 07:16:58 <KotCzarny> i think yes
Oct 09 07:17:04 <bencoh> yeah it did
Oct 09 07:17:14 <Vajb> that was great invention then
Oct 09 07:17:21 <Vajb> for mobile operators :)
Oct 09 07:17:24 <KotCzarny> Advanced SMS messaging: Chat, concatenated messages, templates, and smileys
Oct 09 07:17:26 <bencoh> huhu
Oct 09 07:18:25 <Vajb> i heard somewhere that 140 characters wasn't the original plan, but they decided it because they thought no one will use them anyway
Oct 09 07:19:01 <KotCzarny> vajb, adding unicode support mad it really suck
Oct 09 07:19:07 <KotCzarny> *made
Oct 09 07:19:19 <KotCzarny> so you had 70chars per message
Oct 09 07:19:34 <Vajb> and now we are getting back to basics since everyone is using twitter which has 140 characters afaik
Oct 09 07:20:26 <KotCzarny> btw. sms is 160 chars
Oct 09 07:20:59 <Vajb> nowadays it has been funny to read old game magazines where they advertize custom operator logos, ring tones and screensavers
Oct 09 07:21:16 <Vajb> it is?
Oct 09 07:21:19 <KotCzarny> yup
Oct 09 07:21:22 <bencoh> depends on encoding
Oct 09 07:21:29 <Vajb> my memory is having some joke over me...
Oct 09 07:21:47 <KotCzarny> These were defined in 1985 as part of the Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM) series of standards[5][full citation needed] as a means of sending messages of up to 160 characters to and from GSM mobile handsets
Oct 09 07:21:57 <bencoh> (there are some 7bits tricks as well)
Oct 09 07:24:25 <KotCzarny> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_Message_Service#Message_size
Oct 09 07:29:52 <KotCzarny> amazes me how voice connection is cheaper than sms
Oct 09 07:30:31 <KotCzarny> would be nice to implement some modem interface over voice channel (that would go through compression)
Oct 09 07:31:10 <KotCzarny> here sms costs ~40s of voice (on prepaid)
Oct 09 07:31:57 <Vajb> i guess it's about the same everywhere
Oct 09 07:33:04 <bencoh> Vajb: some countries/operators have really cheap unlimited sms plans
Oct 09 07:33:16 <Vajb> i use mostly just data so i don't care much :)
Oct 09 07:33:25 <KotCzarny> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/SMS_messages_sent_monthly_in_USA_%28in_billions%29.svg
Oct 09 07:33:26 <KotCzarny> ;)
Oct 09 07:33:28 <Vajb> well true
Oct 09 07:33:44 <KotCzarny> one can hardly say it's obsolete tech ;)
Oct 09 07:33:58 <Vajb> we have monthly packages of sms for fixed price
Oct 09 07:34:32 <KotCzarny> its a great way to send inormation when voice isnt feasible for any reason
Oct 09 07:34:51 <KotCzarny> similar to email but without need for having an account
Oct 09 07:35:56 <Vajb> but it is somewhat disappearing or atleast sliding off from standards...
Oct 09 07:36:18 <Vajb> like n900 can't receive sms from samsung galaxy s6
Oct 09 07:36:38 <KotCzarny> thats because people like those idiotleys
Oct 09 07:36:52 <Vajb> aha
Oct 09 07:37:14 <KotCzarny> in my days we had colon and parentheses. and it was good!
Oct 09 07:37:19 * KotCzarny grumbles
Oct 09 07:38:37 <Vajb> in my days we didn't have phones. Instead we went to visit.
Oct 09 07:39:00 <Vajb> i bought my first phone when i turn 18
Oct 09 07:39:28 <Vajb> now idiotic parents buy phone for their 3 yo infant
Oct 09 07:39:41 <KotCzarny> sing of days
Oct 09 07:39:54 <Vajb> hmm maybe fetus phone will be next big step
Oct 09 07:40:12 <KotCzarny> sperm phone?
Oct 09 07:40:15 <KotCzarny> ;)
Oct 09 07:40:17 <Vajb> it even rhymes
Oct 09 07:40:55 <Vajb> hmm why not. We have sperm banks already
Oct 09 07:41:31 <KotCzarny> but dont worry, our civilisation is on the brink of another dark age
Oct 09 07:41:44 <KotCzarny> so enjoy while you can
Oct 09 07:42:09 <KotCzarny> we had pretty good 50 or so years of bright developments
Oct 09 07:42:45 <Vajb> up and downs
Oct 09 07:42:50 <Vajb> irony of life
Oct 09 07:45:31 <KotCzarny> nope, just balance of things
Oct 09 08:08:47 <ceene> sms are expensive because they made them so
Oct 09 08:09:01 <ceene> but sending an sms is essentialy free for the network
Oct 09 08:13:38 <DocScrutinizer05> initially (in protocol specs) they been meant to be free ;-P
Oct 09 08:17:09 <KotCzarny> knowing people, having sms service free they would hack ghetto-internet protocol over it :P
Oct 09 08:18:24 <KotCzarny> well, more ghett-bbs
Oct 09 08:19:50 <ceene> i don't now why, but sms do have a feeling different than IM
Oct 09 08:20:21 <KotCzarny> because you have to pay for it maybe?
Oct 09 08:20:22 <ceene> it's like sending/receiving a telegram: it must be important
Oct 09 08:21:19 <ceene> don't know, i remember one summer movistar made them free as a promotion, for a while
Oct 09 08:21:53 <ceene> i don't think i've sent as many whatsapps as sms i sent that summer :D
Oct 09 08:22:26 <bencoh> (you cant send whatsapps anymore anyway :p)
Oct 09 08:22:59 <KotCzarny> another thing is people tend to have phones nearby, and getting sms is almost always heard
Oct 09 08:23:13 <KotCzarny> in case of computer based im its not always the case
Oct 09 08:25:11 <ceene> bip bip bip   biiiiip biiiiiip   bip bip bip
Oct 09 08:25:25 <KotCzarny> morse code for sms
Oct 09 08:25:30 <ceene> yeah :D
Oct 09 08:25:55 <ceene> nokia was the best thing to happen to mainstream technology
Oct 09 08:26:12 <KotCzarny> sad thing they are no more
Oct 09 08:26:43 <KotCzarny> samsung just makes commercial toys
Oct 09 08:27:06 <KotCzarny> almost no innovation
Oct 09 08:35:31 <ceene> innovation is not easy, though
Oct 09 08:36:00 <ceene> i want to set up a business, but all i can think of is selling muffins or a restaurant :D
Oct 09 08:36:30 <ceene> i can't think of any useful technological thingy
Oct 09 08:36:33 <ceene> lol
Oct 09 08:39:05 <Vajb> ceene: maybe fetus phone?
Oct 09 08:39:42 <KotCzarny> ceene, kickstart marvel soc based router/nas/ip cam board?
Oct 09 08:40:10 <KotCzarny> iot is on the rise nowadays
Oct 09 08:40:45 <bencoh> ceene: muffins <3
Oct 09 08:40:53 <ceene> :D
Oct 09 08:41:09 <KotCzarny> if you manage to pack 2x sata, 1x minipcie, 2xgbit, at least dual core cpu, 1gb ram onto board for less than 20usd you will be a winner
Oct 09 08:41:10 <KotCzarny> ;)
Oct 09 08:41:14 <ceene> don't know, yeah, maybe any kickstarter would reach critical mass
Oct 09 08:41:25 <bencoh> potato salad
Oct 09 08:41:41 <bencoh> (it really looked good)
Oct 09 08:41:52 <KotCzarny> espressobin board is very tempting, but they made shipping price crazy
Oct 09 09:28:17 <KotCzarny> hey, c wizards, what is the difference between *c[] and **c ?
Oct 09 09:56:53 <Maxdamantus> KotCzarny: in a declaration, one is the designator for an array of pointers, the other a designator for a pointer to a pointer.
Oct 09 09:57:09 <KotCzarny> hmm, and in use?
Oct 09 09:57:13 <Maxdamantus> well, "declarator" is the proper term iirc
Oct 09 09:57:23 <KotCzarny> im asking specifically because of getline()
Oct 09 09:57:32 <Maxdamantus> one's an array, the other's a pointer.
Oct 09 09:57:35 <KotCzarny> it requires **p as an arg
Oct 09 09:57:55 <hexnewbie> In use, one's invalid syntax (I think), the other dereferences a pointer twice.
Oct 09 09:57:56 <KotCzarny> (but it really needs an address of the first char)
Oct 09 09:58:20 <Maxdamantus> They're both valid declarators, just not actual expressions.
Oct 09 09:58:56 <KotCzarny> or may i ask another way, how to pass *c[] to getline()
Oct 09 09:59:10 <KotCzarny> for **c its just getline(&c, ...)
Oct 09 09:59:16 <Maxdamantus> KotCzarny: you probably don't want to.
Oct 09 10:00:07 <Maxdamantus> KotCzarny: if you pass `c` to getline, it will read and update `*c`.
Oct 09 10:00:08 <KotCzarny> wait, i've asked wrong. how to pass c[] to getline(), for *c=malloc() its just getline(&c, ..)
Oct 09 10:00:11 <ceene> you don't want to pass *c[] to getline
Oct 09 10:00:52 <ceene> getline requires a pointer to a pointer
Oct 09 10:00:59 <ceene> because inside getline there's already a malloc()
Oct 09 10:01:00 <Maxdamantus> if you have a `char c[x];`, you should probably create a pointer into `c` then pass the pointer to that.
Oct 09 10:01:02 <hexnewbie> KotCzarny: You cannot. getline will allocate new memory, and give you back a pointer.
Oct 09 10:01:16 <Maxdamantus> char *p = c; getline(&p, ..)
Oct 09 10:01:29 <KotCzarny> hmm. but in getline manual it says you can pass already allocated buffer
Oct 09 10:01:48 <hexnewbie> KotCzarny: OK, I'm wrong. Yeah. Sorry.
Oct 09 10:01:55 <Maxdamantus> It is already allocated in this case.
Oct 09 10:02:00 <ceene> you can char *c=malloc() and then call getline(&c...)
Oct 09 10:02:08 <Maxdamantus> *p is already pointing into an array; it's not NULL.
Oct 09 10:02:12 <ceene> but &c in that case is a pointer to a *c, thus **c
Oct 09 10:02:23 <KotCzarny> i know, i've done it. but i wonder how to write it using c[]
Oct 09 10:02:28 <hexnewbie> KotCzarny: I'd still prefer if getline() to allocate it for me, though. 
Oct 09 10:03:01 <Maxdamantus> What are you expecting `getline` to **UPDATE** if you just give it a `char [x]`?
Oct 09 10:03:05 <ceene> you could char c[]="whatever" and call getline(&c... but that will end up causing an error
Oct 09 10:03:21 <ceene> because getline can't make c point to any other thing than "whatever", because it's not a pointer
Oct 09 10:03:28 <Maxdamantus> ceene: you can't even call that.
Oct 09 10:03:40 <Maxdamantus> ceene: &c is a pointer to an array, not a pointer to a pointer.
Oct 09 10:03:45 <hexnewbie> KotCzarny: I read the man page. You *cannot* pass an array there, as it may try to run realloc() the pointer you passed. This means it has to be malloc()ed, and not an array allocated on the stack
Oct 09 10:03:58 <KotCzarny> uhum
Oct 09 10:04:21 <Maxdamantus> hexnewbie: that's wrong.
Oct 09 10:04:31 <hexnewbie> Maxdamantus: Which part? :)
Oct 09 10:04:46 <Maxdamantus> hexnewbie: it caring how the memory is allocated.
Oct 09 10:05:17 <hexnewbie> Maxdamantus: Alternatively,  before  calling  getline(), *lineptr can contain a pointer to a malloc(3)-allocated buffer *n bytes in size.  If the buffer is not large enough to hold the line, getline() resizes it with realloc(3), updating *lineptr and *n as necessary.“”
Oct 09 10:05:34 <Maxdamantus> Ah, okay, nvm.
Oct 09 10:07:17 <Maxdamantus> KotCzarny: maybe what you want is `fgets`
Oct 09 10:07:46 <KotCzarny> ahm right. i forgot about it
Oct 09 10:08:08 <KotCzarny> thx!
Oct 09 10:19:54 <ceene> so, a kickstarter for muffins...
Oct 09 12:59:11 <KotCzarny> i should've started writing in gtk available for maemo.
Oct 09 12:59:14 * KotCzarny grumbles
Oct 09 12:59:52 <bencoh> indeed
Oct 09 13:00:17 <KotCzarny> GSocketConnection is available since 2.32. eh
Oct 09 13:02:16 <KotCzarny> 2.14 seems.. antique
Oct 09 14:05:32 <DocScrutinizer05> ((bip bip bip   biiiiip biiiiiip   bip bip bip)) = S M S (morse)
Oct 09 14:05:56 * CatButts furts
Oct 09 14:33:43 <KotCzarny> furts?
Oct 09 14:41:40 <_maniac_> purrs and farts (probably)
Oct 09 14:43:27 <CatButts> no, just farts
Oct 09 14:52:50 <ceene> i'm bored
Oct 09 14:52:56 <ceene> maybe i'm boring, too
Oct 09 14:53:01 <KotCzarny> hrm, gethostbyname fails for ip addr
Oct 09 14:53:09 <KotCzarny> wth
Oct 09 18:11:27 <sicelo> meh .. so i had been making life hard for myself on N900 .. not getting the benefits of the avahi daemon that we have always running
Oct 09 18:11:39 <sicelo> got to adjust my iptables rules
Oct 09 18:48:59 <ceene> what do you use it for?
Oct 09 18:49:12 <ceene> i've never quite guessed what it does
Oct 09 18:49:31 <sicelo> like Bonjour on Apple devices
Oct 09 18:50:13 <ceene> don't know what that is either
Oct 09 18:50:21 <KotCzarny> making life easier for users, and harder for devs/distro maintainers
Oct 09 18:50:23 <ceene> something about selfdiscovering something?
Oct 09 18:50:28 <sicelo> it allows you to connect to your device via hostname from any network that you are connected to, without having to first discover/know the IP address
Oct 09 18:50:32 <sicelo> yes, that
Oct 09 18:50:51 <KotCzarny> part of the dbus/nm/systemd cabal
Oct 09 18:51:33 <sicelo> like PA, it's on our N900, and we can't run from it .. so may as well use it :-)
Oct 09 18:51:43 <KotCzarny> :)
Oct 09 18:51:48 <sicelo> i am not planning to install it on my laptop for example
Oct 09 18:52:44 <KotCzarny> offtopic, oscp-remote-gtk works on n900. yay. and the same code compiles/works on pc linux/windoze(mingw)
Oct 09 18:52:58 <ceene> cool!
Oct 09 18:53:04 <sicelo> didn't it work on N900 before?
Oct 09 18:53:11 <KotCzarny> its funny how different versions of gtk trigger different kind of bugs
Oct 09 18:53:23 <KotCzarny> sicelo, i've ported pygtk to native gtk
Oct 09 18:53:36 <KotCzarny> 18M -> ~9M of ram usage
Oct 09 18:53:47 <KotCzarny> fewer dependencies too
Oct 09 18:54:22 <KotCzarny> also, writing app in gtk is easy once one make few defins/helper funcs
Oct 09 18:54:44 <ceene> how hard is gtk gui design?
Oct 09 18:54:45 <sicelo> awesome (the halving of RAM use)
Oct 09 18:54:52 <ceene> i just don't know how to design guis :(
Oct 09 18:55:16 <KotCzarny> ceene, depends, if you know 'this button i want on this side, that list on that side' its easy
Oct 09 18:55:31 <KotCzarny> ceene, see setup_window() in the source
Oct 09 18:56:06 <KotCzarny> ie. you have to prepare widgets (buttons, labels, windows), then pack them inside other widgets and show
Oct 09 18:56:16 <KotCzarny> adding few callbacks and its done
Oct 09 18:56:42 <ceene> all that signal connecting, though...
Oct 09 18:57:00 <KotCzarny> nah, its easy, you use one or two templates max
Oct 09 18:57:45 <KotCzarny> i would've probably put those signal connects into helper function if i digged out how to pass functions to functions
Oct 09 18:58:11 <ceene> pointers to functions :)
Oct 09 18:58:13 <KotCzarny> gtk syntax if descriptive as 70yo man
Oct 09 18:58:18 <KotCzarny> *is
Oct 09 18:58:50 <KotCzarny> oscp-remote-gtk is quite complete (i still have to add dbus to the mix, /me shrugs)
Oct 09 23:07:32 <DocScrutinizer05> avahi = poettering. completely fucked up protocol, that picks for example IP addr at random, then does ARP "poisoning" etc to find if another device already has that addr and to advertise its own addr to any DNServer in local network, or simply does its own ARP on own behalf to answer ARP requests from other devices etc
Oct 09 23:08:15 <DocScrutinizer05> a *nightmare* for any network admin
Oct 09 23:09:23 <DocScrutinizer05> add one avahi device into a decently configured LAN and odds are you are gambling with the complete LAN going south, since NS collicions and whatnot
Oct 09 23:10:26 <DocScrutinizer05> btw I have no avahi on my maemo
Oct 09 23:10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> what we got is pretty okish dnsmasq
Oct 09 23:27:00 <bencoh> protocol isn't poettering
Oct 09 23:27:10 <bencoh> (even though it could be)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Oct 10 02:59:59 2016