**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 09 03:00:00 2016
Nov 09 06:35:41 <xes> DocScrutinizer05: fine
Nov 09 08:53:50 <antranigv> hi all!
Nov 09 08:55:06 <antranigv> we heared about the Coding Competition. a friend of mine is asking if he can write an android app for Sailfish, or it has to be native?
Nov 09 08:58:06 <gry> hah
Nov 09 08:59:26 <gry> " Entries have to run on Maemo or Mer-based devices/platforms. " from http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo.org_Coding_Competition_2016
Nov 09 08:59:36 <gry> letmme see what sailfish is based on
Nov 09 09:00:20 <gry> I think sailfish is mer-based so you're good to go
Nov 09 10:02:34 <xes> it seems that nowhere is written native application.. but i would not expect too many votes for an android app
Nov 09 11:25:12 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd even rule out android apps, it's like writing a game for an arbitrary console emulator that happens to run under maemo/mer
Nov 09 11:26:57 <DocScrutinizer05> aiui the purpose is to get more native maemo/mer apps, not to add to the galactic zoo of android apps
Nov 09 11:30:04 <DocScrutinizer05> ((like writing a game for an arbitrary console emulator)) even worse: in this case the emulator would be non-free
Nov 09 11:30:59 <DocScrutinizer05> at least afaik, or is sailfish's android compatibility stuff now FOSS?
Nov 09 11:38:15 <bencoh> highly doubt it
Nov 09 11:51:59 <zGrr> moin 
Nov 09 12:59:17 <brolin_empey> jonwil: Is there a third-party (from a company other than Intel) chipset for an Intel CPU in the post-Pentium 4 era?  If yes, then maybe there is a motherboard from the last ten years with an Intel Core series CPU but without AMT/ME.
Nov 09 12:59:42 <jonwil> 3rd parties stopped making Intel chipsets years ago.
Nov 09 13:05:55 <brolin_empey> jonwil: That is what I thought because the newest motherboard with an Intel CPU but with a third-party chipset I have seen is for Socket 478.  There are Pentium 4 CPUs for Socket T AKA LGA775 but I do not know if there is an LGA775 motherboard with a third-party chipset.  I think that all of the LGA775 motherboards I have seen use an Intel chipset.  I do not know about the original Intel Core AKA Core 1 because my experience is with eras older than or newer 
Nov 09 13:05:55 <brolin_empey> than Core 1.
Nov 09 13:11:05 <brolin_empey> I do not know if an LGA775 Pentium 4 even uses the same technology as a Pentium 4 for Socket 423 or Socket 478, i.e., if an LGA775 Pentium 4 uses a core based on the NetBurst microarchitecture.
Nov 09 13:18:28 <Wizzup> core2duo can have ME removed
Nov 09 13:18:34 <Wizzup> see libreboot on x200 laptops
Nov 09 13:22:29 <brolin_empey> Wizzup: ThinkPad X200?  Only Core 2 Duo even if the motherboard supports Core 2 Quad too?
Nov 09 13:23:30 <Wizzup> I don't understand your question
Nov 09 13:25:43 <brolin_empey> Wizzup: You said Core 2 Duo but a motherboard, at least a desktop model, that can use a Core 2 Duo CPU can also use a Core 2 Quad CPU.  I do not know if the same is true of notebook motherboards, though.
Nov 09 13:25:59 <Wizzup> Just go to libreboot.org and see...
Nov 09 13:29:48 <brolin_empey> Wizzup: OK but I was asking because I thought you may know the answer off hand.
Nov 09 13:33:58 <brolin_empey> I wonder if the early MacBook with white plastic (polycarbonate, IIRC) case I have has a Core 1 CPU.  I never use that computer because I do not have a power supply for it and I do not want to give money to AAPL.
Nov 09 13:39:17 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: DFI said that they need to modify the firmware for their computer/motherboard to add support for the model of LVDS display panel my company is using.
Nov 09 13:40:45 <DocScrutinizer05> ouch
Nov 09 13:43:08 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: I did not mean that the firmware needs to be rearchitectected, I only meant that DFI needs to add support for the display panel we are using, which requires rebuilding the firmware.
Nov 09 13:44:51 <brolin_empey> rearchitected?  I do not want to sidetrack myself to look up the spelling of that word.
Nov 09 13:50:37 <brolin_empey> KotCzarny: (continuing our conversation from months or years ago about notebook computers with a proper (high quality) integrated display) I see that at least 2 or 3 models of notebook computers with an AMOLED display are now commercially available.  However, the deal breaker for me is that none of the models I found have a numeric keypad, not even the ThinkPad model. (fail)
Nov 09 13:52:11 <bencoh> do you actually need a numeric keypad on a laptop?
Nov 09 13:55:08 <brolin_empey> bencoh: Yes.  I intentionally avoid using the term “laptop” in this context because it is a misnomer.
Nov 09 13:58:44 <brolin_empey> Although, to be literal, I use a tower computer on a table at home, not a desktop (horizontal) computer case on a desk.
Nov 09 14:01:19 <brolin_empey> I wonder why Commodore released an all-in-one portable (luggable) C64 (the SX-64) but not an all-in-one portable Amiga.
Nov 09 14:04:39 <brolin_empey> If you say that the power supply for the computer being external makes the computer not literally all in one, well, I have a Pentium II notebook computer, a Compaq Armada 1750, with an internal power supply.
Nov 09 15:27:11 <DocScrutinizer05> for Opensuse (and other systemd cursed distros with rsyslogd): http://paste.opensuse.org/18093004
Nov 09 15:28:45 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.opensuse.org/4762396
Nov 09 15:31:05 <kerio> wasdat
Nov 09 15:35:31 <sicelo> i think ... systemd has a lot of bad ... but, it's here to stay :-/
Nov 09 15:38:22 <KotCzarny> sicelo: only if you dont protest
Nov 09 15:38:42 <KotCzarny> i use systemd-less systems
Nov 09 15:39:22 <sicelo> i should think people protested when dbus first came out, pulseaudio, etc.
Nov 09 15:39:33 <sicelo> (or Trump) :p
Nov 09 15:41:58 <KotCzarny> dont start politics :P
Nov 09 15:42:30 <sicelo> lol .. but it makes the point 
Nov 09 15:43:09 <sicelo> dbus basically is unavoidable now, and PA is also hard to avoid
Nov 09 15:43:21 <sicelo> not saying any of them are good
Nov 09 15:43:27 <sicelo> or bad
Nov 09 15:44:03 <kerio> macos
Nov 09 15:44:04 <kerio> freebsd
Nov 09 15:44:10 <KotCzarny> not true
Nov 09 15:44:19 <KotCzarny> my slackware only has dbus, and i can disable it
Nov 09 15:44:22 <kerio> (the latter may spontanously grow up a pulseaudio but you can kill it)
Nov 09 15:44:36 <sicelo> yes kerio .. but not all of us can afford a MAC
Nov 09 15:45:03 <kerio> ye the latest macbook pro is a bit too insane :(
Nov 09 15:45:25 <kerio> freebsd has gpu acceleration
Nov 09 15:45:30 <kerio> zfs
Nov 09 15:45:50 <kerio> init system that you can change with a text editor
Nov 09 15:46:13 <sicelo> the price of an iphone can buy a good used car .. so a mac(book) is just out of reach really
Nov 09 15:46:38 <kerio> https://www.trueos.org
Nov 09 15:46:41 <kerio> the name is pretty damn silly
Nov 09 15:46:46 <kerio> but it's a decent freebsd desktop distro
Nov 09 15:47:39 <kerio> sicelo: the lack of a 32gb option in the new macbook pro and the lack of data checksumming in apfs are kinda turning me off apple, i have to say :\
Nov 09 15:48:06 <sicelo> you'll have that thing .. what they cally it .. in place of F-keys ;)
Nov 09 15:48:32 <kerio> that's pretty neat
Nov 09 15:48:47 <kerio> and it also acts as a secure enclave for the purpose of fingerprint authentication
Nov 09 15:49:12 <bencoh> how is removing esc key "pretty neat"? seriously...
Nov 09 15:49:16 <sicelo> i thought fingerprint stuff was no longer considered the way to go in security
Nov 09 15:49:30 <bencoh> and ... yeah, fingerprint is shit
Nov 09 15:49:37 <KotCzarny> yup
Nov 09 15:49:38 <KotCzarny> but neat
Nov 09 15:50:07 <sicelo> bencoh: where do you need to escape to or from ;)
Nov 09 15:50:19 <bencoh> krkr
Nov 09 15:50:23 <kerio> bencoh: an "esc" virtual button is always present and can't be disabled by programs
Nov 09 15:51:00 <kerio> if you're such a heavy "esc" user that you need a physical button for it, there's a key at the left of "a" that you should've been using in the first place anyway
Nov 09 15:51:39 <kerio> serious vim users would scoff at you for suggesting to move your hands from the home row :>
Nov 09 15:53:23 <brolin_empey> bencoh: In the same way as completely removing the numeric keypad from all unibody MacBook keyboards?
Nov 09 15:53:56 <kerio> the horror
Nov 09 15:56:37 <kerio> are you upset because every notebook manifacturer will do the same thing apple is doing 6 months from now, in a more mediocre way?
Nov 09 15:58:56 <bencoh> brolin_empey: there never was any numeric keypad on macbook(pro)
Nov 09 15:59:14 <bencoh> apart from the Fn-* shortcuts that kinda looked like a numeric keypad
Nov 09 16:00:00 <bencoh> kerio: I'm not a huge fan of remapping capslock to something non-standard
Nov 09 16:00:12 <bencoh> best way to mess with your muscle memory
Nov 09 16:00:14 <kerio> you should remap it to ctrl
Nov 09 16:00:17 <kerio> it's amazing
Nov 09 16:00:22 <bencoh> I don't need to remap it to ctrl
Nov 09 16:00:26 <bencoh> I can use ctrl without my finger
Nov 09 16:00:28 <kerio> but it's amazing
Nov 09 16:00:34 <kerio> say whaaaat
Nov 09 16:03:35 <bencoh> kerio: see this part of the hand that sits just below your little finger?
Nov 09 16:03:57 <kerio> ok how do you hit ctrl but not alt or fn or super
Nov 09 16:04:05 <kerio> also isn't it like hell on your bones?
Nov 09 16:04:23 <bencoh> I don't do it on laptops
Nov 09 16:04:29 <bencoh> but on external keyboards it's just fine :)
Nov 09 16:04:37 <bencoh> and no it's not hell :)
Nov 09 16:04:45 <bencoh> and I can it ctrl only
Nov 09 16:04:53 <bencoh> (actually I can't hit alt/fn with it)
Nov 09 16:04:54 <kerio> oh because it's the leftmost key, i see
Nov 09 16:05:14 <bencoh> yup
Nov 09 16:05:24 <bencoh> it's pretty handy actually
Nov 09 16:06:53 <kerio> anyway, the touch bar is cute
Nov 09 16:07:03 <kerio> the new macbook pros are expensive
Nov 09 16:07:15 <kerio> hopefully the kaby lake refresh will support 32gb of ram
Nov 09 16:08:53 <bencoh> the what?
Nov 09 16:09:05 <kerio> intel microarchitecture after skylake
Nov 09 16:09:06 <bencoh> ah, latest intel cpu?
Nov 09 16:09:13 <kerio> i7 7xxx as opposed to i7 6xxx
Nov 09 16:11:17 <KotCzarny> old thinkpad's kb was the best one, layout wise and design wise
Nov 09 16:12:22 <kerio> embrace the usb c
Nov 09 16:13:12 <KotCzarny> nevah!
Nov 09 16:13:27 <KotCzarny> love is all you need!
Nov 09 16:18:00 <kerio> no but seriously usb c is pretty amazing
Nov 09 16:25:32 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: ((wasdat)) http://paste.opensuse.org/26292051
Nov 09 16:26:10 <KotCzarny> kerio, my laptop has everything i need, and i rarely use external things
Nov 09 16:27:15 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: versus http://paste.opensuse.org/67266835
Nov 09 16:28:06 <kerio> rip logs
Nov 09 16:28:30 <DocScrutinizer05> see the filename!
Nov 09 16:28:51 <DocScrutinizer05> syslog-session-blabla.conf
Nov 09 16:38:49 <brolin_empey> kerio: I mostly do not use notebook computers.  My primary computers are desktop/tower computers.  A handheld computer that I can carry in my pants pocket is far more useful to me than a notebook computer.
Nov 09 16:39:23 <kerio> pyra?
Nov 09 16:39:27 <kerio> or one of those awkward x86 ones?
Nov 09 16:40:15 <brolin_empey> bencoh: Pre-unibody MacBook keyboards, at least on the MacBook with the white plastic case, have an overlaid numeric keypad.
Nov 09 16:43:21 <bencoh> brolin_empey: *overlaid* and you had to use it with fn, yeah
Nov 09 16:44:36 <brolin_empey> kerio: By “handheld computer”, I mean what is commonly referred to as a smartphone but I dislike that term because it is a computer that I occasionally use as a telephone, not a telephone that I occassionally use as a computer.
Nov 09 16:44:56 <kerio> brolin_empey: oh, i thought you were cool :(
Nov 09 16:47:40 <brolin_empey> bencoh: An overlaid numeric keypad works for me and is much better than having no integrated numeric keypad.
Nov 09 16:49:01 <bencoh> true
Nov 09 16:49:11 <bencoh> (I never used it, but still)
Nov 09 16:49:56 <brolin_empey> kerio: There are x86 smartphones, such as my retired Geeksphone Revolution and even some old Nokia model whose name I forgot.
Nov 09 16:50:06 <kerio> yeah but those are bad
Nov 09 16:52:57 <kerio> brolin_empey: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/gpd-win-intel-z8700-win-10-os-game-console-laptop#/
Nov 09 17:45:09 <brolin_empey> kerio: That computer is interesting but it cannot replace a smartphone.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Nov 10 03:00:00 2016