**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 31 03:00:02 2017 Mar 31 04:37:49 is there something like f.lux for maemo? Mar 31 04:38:17 color changing for eyes improvement mainly Mar 31 04:38:24 but it can be for any purpose actually Mar 31 04:48:01 hm? what's this f.lux thing? Mar 31 04:48:38 "color changing for eyes improvement" o.O ??? Mar 31 04:50:20 aah, display color temperature automatic changing Mar 31 04:51:27 well, N900 has automatic display brightness by ALS. I don't know of a way to adjust the color temperature Mar 31 04:55:41 as far battery monitors on n900 go, i like battery-eye Mar 31 04:56:05 it's not affecting battery usage (ie. sampling only when something happens anyway (lock/unlock etc) Mar 31 04:56:25 yet, providing quite descriptive history what happens Mar 31 05:03:46 ~tell dreamer about lazyflashing Mar 31 05:05:05 dreamer: start there, install the repo mirrors as recommended, then proceed with installing CSSU as explained on CSSU wiikipage. Should not result in any problems Mar 31 05:05:46 do NOT install any stiff before you completed installing CSSU, it will complicate things Mar 31 05:05:51 stuff even Mar 31 05:06:26 interesting Mar 31 05:06:35 Oh well Mar 31 05:06:39 i dont even have a n900 Mar 31 05:06:41 yet Mar 31 05:06:53 why did you plan to get it? Mar 31 05:07:30 that explains why you're asking that question ;-) No N900 user ever asked it afaik Mar 31 05:10:42 Zungo: you know n900 is not a phone for everyone, what makes you plan to get it? Mar 31 05:10:58 i like to experiment Mar 31 05:11:04 i believe i might be "qualified" Mar 31 05:11:07 im a nerd Mar 31 05:11:14 do you know linux well? Mar 31 05:11:28 oksana has el-v1,de of 46MB?!?? :-o everything larger maybe 2MB is considered a killer for RAM Mar 31 05:11:39 enough to able to maneuver myself in it Mar 31 05:11:42 with all it quirks and having to do manual work in terminal? Mar 31 05:11:45 Oh well Mar 31 05:11:56 Sure, it overwhelms me but i can do it Mar 31 05:12:04 then yeah, you are qualified Mar 31 05:12:15 i learn fast Mar 31 05:12:18 and i do tech support Mar 31 05:12:20 :p Mar 31 05:12:21 but dont expect any browsing of the internet on it Mar 31 05:12:30 no problem Mar 31 05:12:34 i know microb sucks already Mar 31 05:12:40 otoh it could act well as a portable linux machine Mar 31 05:12:49 with many of useful tools Mar 31 05:13:01 nah, microb is ok, it's the internet that got bloated to hell Mar 31 05:13:17 Zungo: then first and most important thing you need to learn: maemo is not debian (though technically close). There are a few things you should NOT consider doing, like apt-get upgrade etc Mar 31 05:13:28 where having 2GB of ram might not be enough ;) not to say 256MB Mar 31 05:14:22 and yeah, some people are a bit compulsory with their data Mar 31 05:14:47 no problem, i used to use crap computers Mar 31 05:15:52 you might want to prepare list of tools/apps you expect to use and check if they are available, or their substitutes Mar 31 05:17:47 i actually plan to use a n900 as playground Mar 31 05:17:49 Enrico_Menotti: You asked about not being able to make symlinks. Also i read that you recently reformatted your sd card. Is it by any chance formatted to fat? Because if it is, that is your problem. Fat doesn't support symlinks. Mar 31 05:18:58 ~jrtools Mar 31 05:18:58 [jrtools] http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools Mar 31 05:19:04 Zungo: ^^^ Mar 31 08:01:33 DocScrutinizer05: hey, so I pinpointed my issue to placing my backups and the applist in that backup. this added the thumb repo and packages in the package manager. I now disabled the thumb repo and now it doesn't want to upgrade to these packages any more Mar 31 08:01:57 fun Mar 31 08:02:18 what backup method did you use? Mar 31 08:02:25 dreamer: yeah, the "backup" is basically just a list of apps to install from repos Mar 31 08:02:37 incl the repo definition Mar 31 08:02:39 uhuh Mar 31 08:02:55 which I didn't realize at all. that this would pull the thumb stuff :P Mar 31 08:03:13 (I really only cared about the contacts and maybe some settings) Mar 31 08:03:24 it adds thumb repo if you backed up one app from thumb Mar 31 08:03:42 yup. I disabled the repo now and now the thumb stuff isn't in the way any more Mar 31 08:03:47 you can deselect all apps during restore Mar 31 08:04:20 I'm already past that eh :P Mar 31 08:04:29 great Mar 31 08:04:36 * dreamer doesn't want to start over _again_ - have the n900 set up mostly as I want atm :) Mar 31 08:04:39 thimb is tricky, very tricky Mar 31 08:04:55 yeah I'm going to leave the thumb stuff. I don't run that many applications at once usually Mar 31 08:05:01 if you used backupmenu, they should add a warning at least during restore Mar 31 08:05:02 since it needs kernel patch or will segfault like mad Mar 31 08:05:04 so I don't think swapping should be an issue Mar 31 08:06:11 ie. detect if restoring to stock or cssu while backup was on cssu-thumb (or any other combination) Mar 31 08:07:12 alas there's no simple way to reliably tell a binary is thumb or not, so... Mar 31 08:07:25 not binary, backup Mar 31 08:07:40 when backup its done, current cssu level could be stored too Mar 31 08:08:21 and requesting to update to specific cssu before attempting restore Mar 31 08:08:36 (or even better, install that cssu without user intervention) Mar 31 08:08:49 maybe with asking if to do it Mar 31 08:11:56 not even backupmenu does save the patched kernel (though we discussed how to add that), anyway while backupmenu unlike default backup saves complete rootfs (and opt) there's no info in that that could be used to reliably tell it's a thumb system Mar 31 08:13:32 while i hate systemd and all its abominations, maybe we could employ /etc/os-release Mar 31 08:13:46 and store few bits of info there Mar 31 08:14:06 so I'd not go for thumb initially, rather reflash a plain system, then add repo mirrors, then install CSSU. Then restore your backup (NOT backupmenu!), only then ponder if you might want to go powerkernel (might eventually come with CSSU) and even thumb apps Mar 31 08:14:25 he flashed stock, then install cssu-stable Mar 31 08:14:37 he got into troubles because his backup was from thumb Mar 31 08:14:56 hence weird repos/cssu combination Mar 31 08:17:21 ((dreamer doesn't want to start over _again_)) well, it's a matter of like one cmdline on PC and 5 clicks to install mirrors and CSSU, and let it do its thing which takes like 20 min or so Mar 31 08:18:16 of course restoring from backupmenu is even way easier... if you never used thumb so no thumb binaries in your BM.backups Mar 31 08:18:40 DocScrutinizer05: no but I also did a lot of config. installed some applications. typed over some missing contacts. etc. Mar 31 08:18:50 easily more than 20 mins Mar 31 08:19:40 KotCzarny: I thought there was effort to move maemo to devuan base ;) Mar 31 08:19:44 (@ systemd) Mar 31 08:19:56 what? Mar 31 08:20:09 nah, ignore that part, i just want os-release file Mar 31 08:20:11 maemo *is* devuan base Mar 31 08:20:16 debian* Mar 31 08:20:48 no, debian *was* maemo's base, at times where debian wasn't systemd infested Mar 31 08:21:16 DocScrutinizer05: current installations for n900 are not devuan based are they? Mar 31 08:21:34 they are, since devuan is debian classic Mar 31 08:21:48 mwah. not exactly Mar 31 08:22:06 the whole reason for devuan in maemo is: we can't base on debian anymore because of systemd Mar 31 08:22:14 uhuh Mar 31 08:23:46 parazyd told me yesterday that basic gsm functionality is there atm. sending sms and stuff Mar 31 08:23:52 devuan and debian are pretty much identical Mar 31 08:25:28 and maemo is based on old debian, and then installed a lot of own stuff on top, and patched a few genuinely debian packages, It also had Nokia patches in kernel Mar 31 08:25:45 but honeslty define what's a linux distro Mar 31 08:27:10 "rebasing Y on upstream X" only means you're applying all the patches and build&install all the apps which are special to Y on top of X Mar 31 08:27:39 sure, sure. but it's not like I'm running devuan on my n900 atbm Mar 31 08:27:40 atm( Mar 31 08:27:48 it's still the original debian base Mar 31 08:28:03 no, and neither you will do that when maemo got rebased on devuan Mar 31 08:28:07 and afaik not all of maemo works yet Mar 31 08:28:12 why not? Mar 31 08:28:21 because it's still maemo then Mar 31 08:28:33 bla :P Mar 31 08:28:34 and basically nothing changed Mar 31 08:28:53 except newer kernel and package versions Mar 31 08:29:43 rebasing does NOT replace or add apps or middleware. It simply updates a system based on patches from the upstream it's rebased on Mar 31 08:30:14 I never said that Mar 31 08:30:47 so what makes you think maemo would change in any way (systemd!) when rebasing it on devuan? Mar 31 08:30:57 where did I say that? Mar 31 08:31:05 you and your assumptions Mar 31 08:31:40 I don't assume anything. If you think so, you got me wrong Mar 31 08:31:53 so, we're both thinking wrong then :) Mar 31 08:32:02 anyway. I have an n900 again. and happy about it Mar 31 08:32:10 (still no clue where the other one got missing ..) Mar 31 08:32:43 >>basic gsm functionality is there<< only means the maemo specific stuff works on new kernel and environment Mar 31 08:34:56 hmm, there is some spam in bugzilla Mar 31 08:35:06 devuan=="the original debian base", much more than debian is, nowadays Mar 31 08:35:14 (bugs.maemo.org), who has admin rights there? Mar 31 08:36:23 re devuan: Mar 31 08:36:28 ~amprolla Mar 31 08:36:28 nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla Mar 31 08:37:47 basically devuan is just an overlay to debian, just like CSSU is to maemo Mar 31 08:38:27 neither of both is a complete own distinct distro Mar 31 08:38:50 both just patch their base distro Mar 31 08:49:59 where's pali when you need him? Mar 31 11:45:58 Devuan for N900 is just base system so far, without UI? Mar 31 11:54:30 yes Mar 31 11:54:34 hildon Mar 31 11:54:39 uhm Mar 31 11:54:46 ui is coming Mar 31 11:54:48 together Mar 31 11:54:53 along with base components actually Mar 31 12:28:51 then what of it is devuan? Mar 31 12:29:27 devuan with maemo? Mar 31 12:29:45 nevermind Mar 31 12:29:47 arch with linux Mar 31 12:30:06 im sleepy Mar 31 12:30:17 currently Mar 31 12:31:12 I'd consider a sysrem with hildon a maemo system, pretty much Mar 31 12:33:06 but then, in the end whenever you customize your system by installing your personal selection of apps and even maybe core system components, it's probably pretty much *your* unique system, and often it's hard to tell which known distro it's more like Mar 31 12:33:10 system with hildon is a system with hildon, maemo i lots of services integrated together, not just ui Mar 31 12:36:43 with power kernel and free BME you could call it a Pali system. Or call it RobbieThe1st system because of awesome backupmenu, Or call it Ubuntu because it has upstart? Mar 31 12:37:57 debian going from gtk2 to gtk3 didnt change the name, so while some components change, since its under the same development team (maemo community in general) Mar 31 12:38:17 it's what the community produces Mar 31 12:39:51 if it looks like a duck, talks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's prolly... maemo Mar 31 12:40:50 if you buy a fake that 'looks like', only to discover later it's not the same thing, you stop calling it 'duck' Mar 31 12:41:07 btw. some distros include hildon i think Mar 31 12:41:15 devuan for N900 would clearly be with another windows manager than hildon Mar 31 12:41:22 and it would be hard to name them 'maemo' Mar 31 12:47:32 "yeah, it has KDE instead of gnome, and it has systemd instead of upstart, and it has zypper instead apt, but the rest is clearly Ubuntu, Oh the rest is identical to Suse as well since no difference for the rest between suse and ubuntu? doesn't matter!" Mar 31 12:51:00 but but,,, I rebased it on Ubuntu, so it's called Ubuntu!! Mar 31 12:51:29 see also the maintainership part Mar 31 12:51:50 nokia changed a lot from diablo to fremantle, yet, its still maemo Mar 31 12:58:15 having your VW getting serviced in a Mercedes workshop for years doesn't turn it into a Mercedes. Mar 31 12:59:27 well, at least not completely, it will still look like and get called a VW, even while a few details might remind you at Mercedes quality Mar 31 13:02:35 and as I explained already, Devuan isn't even a true unique distro, it's a overlay over debian, fetching 99% of packages right from debian mirrors Mar 31 13:02:58 nor was maemo. Mar 31 13:07:29 so a devuan for N900 would look like the long existing debian for N900, which was just a chroot installing a few libs and remarkably first of all a different desktop than hildon. Also maemo always had its own repos and debian had its own repos, while devuan won't have repos for maemo, or if they ever have those, they will be called maemo repo and will not work like the rest of devuan, I.E. won't fetch most of their packages from debian Mar 31 13:07:31 servers Mar 31 13:09:01 ~amprolly Mar 31 13:09:03 armbian is similar 'overlay on debian' distro. they have own image builder and few bits not existing on debian. Mar 31 13:09:04 ~amprolla Mar 31 13:09:04 nextime gave an excellent explanation how amprolla works, at https://botbot.me/freenode/devuan/2016-05-07/?msg=65646427&page=4, or https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla Mar 31 13:16:28 to say it once more: Devuan is a meta distro (overlay) just like CSSU, and Devuan is basically debian just like CSSU is basically maemo. And rebasing maemo on debian has been done a few times already, partially, and never anybody called that "Debian for N900" then Mar 31 14:33:17 oooh, any devuan for N900 will most certainly be armhf, while maemo stays armel Mar 31 14:40:24 DocScrutinizer51: is debian with kde on it not debian? Mar 31 14:43:34 err what a strange queastion Mar 31 14:45:14 I don't see how it matters what we call it Mar 31 14:46:56 debian is a website and a project, a system installing from that website is probably always or never debian. Though you could turn yje system even lrss debian by e.g. removing apt and using a RPPM nased package manager Mar 31 14:48:05 So I am not running devuan? Mar 31 14:48:06 er Mar 31 14:48:07 debian Mar 31 14:48:17 it's a senseless discussion Mar 31 14:48:40 indeed Mar 31 14:49:13 see anove note about repo names and arch (el/hf) Mar 31 14:49:50 also seems it's a monologue rather than discussion Mar 31 14:55:26 you can run armel on armhf kernels, so it's just a matter of having the binaries for the closed source packages that cannot be armhf Mar 31 14:55:33 the libraries* Mar 31 15:08:45 it's also possible to have armel chroot Mar 31 15:09:21 I could start most of example apps from Scratchbox target with native hildon-desktop, but maemo-launcher should be also started from inside chroot then... Mar 31 15:28:31 anyway seems we agreed upon a name for the devuan ci resources already, and I think it contained 'maemo' in it Mar 31 15:31:05 NotKit: yes, sure, but that's exactly that then: a maemo fremantle chroot inside a debian system. And I doubt all the middlleware will be simple to run from a chroot, it's sometimes quite system low level stuff, particularly when it comes to cgroups which are vital part of maemo actually performing as realtime phone system Mar 31 15:32:00 well, is this all needed for just running legacy apps? Mar 31 15:33:27 which 'legacy apps' do you want to dismiss? phoneui aka dialer? mediaplayer incl mafw? the whole pulseaudio shit we need to keep when we want decent phone audio? Mar 31 15:33:56 camera? Mar 31 15:34:19 botifications? Mar 31 15:34:26 notifications even Mar 31 15:35:18 I don't think it's trivial to have dialer running in a chroot and then make it signal 'missed call' to the notifier daemon outside the chroot, via dbus Mar 31 15:36:29 I can't blame you for the question though, it's not obvious from outside how interdependent maemo is inside Mar 31 15:37:58 thosw who know about that interdependencies already pondered chroots and whatnot. getting stuff running on a devuan based system tailored to mimic maemo environment is the result from that Mar 31 15:43:29 hi! Mar 31 15:44:06 fmg, hi! Mar 31 16:12:45 DocScrutinizer05, did you talk about N900 or other possible devices? Mar 31 17:31:56 Hello. I was having some issues related to installing packages on the N900 and I decided to reflash it. It works, but I have a couple of strange things. First: I flashed the eMMC without the reboot option; after that, I tried immediately with the FIASCO image. Didn't work - the device rebooted by itself and showed a messy screen. So I put the device back to flash mode (disconnected usb and connected by holding u) and Mar 31 17:31:57 flashed again the FIASCO, with reboot option. It worked, but the boot stopped at the running dots. I powered off the device and re-booted it by pressing the power button. At this point all right, it seems. Is this normal or did I do something wrong? Mar 31 17:33:24 NotKit: I was talking about maemo Mar 31 17:34:31 Second thing: if I connect the device, powered off, to a computer via USB, it performs a "half boot" and goes to charge mode. I think this is correct. If I press the power button without disconnecting, it boots to the NOKIA screen and then boots again, this time up to the desktop. Is this also normal? Mar 31 17:34:51 it's a delusion to hope for any other phone enabled device performing OK with an OOTB linux basically made for desktop PCs and servers, from kernel to audio to to windows manager Mar 31 17:36:01 maemo as well as andrid have both a LOT of tweaks to make the device run smooth under realtime requirements of phone usecase Mar 31 17:36:08 android* Mar 31 17:37:33 a few other projects target the GUI/UX but never really care about the middleware and performance issues Mar 31 17:41:41 on a 8GB RAM octocore tablet that's maybe no big concern (you get other issues there with poorly or not at all supported hardware), but those cheesy devices we deal with right now, and particularly N900 need careful tuning of process priorities and whatnot else to allow ringtone and call accepting response in less than a second, with decent audio and responsibe GUI Mar 31 17:41:53 reponsive* Mar 31 17:41:59 meh! Mar 31 17:42:35 Third and last thing: after boot, the desktop issues a message saying that the memory card has an unsupported format. I suppose it is referring to the SD card (if I take it out physically and boot, the message does not appear). The latter is formatted as ext3. From terminal, I am able to mount it, however. Why this? Mar 31 17:42:48 ~tell Enrico_Menotti about lazyflashing Mar 31 17:43:40 ((performs a "half boot" and goes to charge mode. I think this is correct)) this is a full boot aka ACT_DEAD and it actually is correct Mar 31 17:43:59 yes, all normal Mar 31 17:44:56 ((why this)) short answer: you didn't install CSSU Mar 31 17:46:55 long answer: oroginal stock maemo didn't know how to handle ext3 uSD. Which doesn't mean the linux underneath can't mount and zse it, just the middleware doesn't expect anything other than vgat. fixed in CSSU Mar 31 17:47:22 s/use/use/ Mar 31 17:47:43 s/vgat/vfat/ Mar 31 17:47:44 DocScrutinizer05 meant: long answer: oroginal stock maemo didn't know how to handle ext3 uSD. Which doesn't mean the linux underneath can't mount and zse it, just the middleware doesn't expect anything other than vfat. fixed in CSSU Mar 31 17:48:16 ~botsnack Mar 31 17:48:17 DocScrutinizer05: aw, gee Mar 31 17:49:20 Ah ok. So all symptoms are normal. I just wanted to be sure the flashing went on correctly. Thank you. Mar 31 17:49:51 it prolly didn't when you had an unsolicited reboot in between Mar 31 17:50:05 use lazyflashing, works like a charm Mar 31 17:50:12 it's real fun Mar 31 17:50:32 alas linux PC only Mar 31 17:51:36 * DocScrutinizer05 should add a desktop icon to click for lazyflashing ;-P Mar 31 17:52:03 Ok, but do you think I really need to flash again? If the present behaviour is normal, I'd expect the device is ok. Mar 31 17:52:26 prolly, but nearly impossible to make absolutely sure Mar 31 17:52:32 it runs Mar 31 17:52:37 ~optification Mar 31 17:52:37 optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR, http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3" Mar 31 17:53:06 on first boot, and that, when aborted, may render just one or a few cli commands borked Mar 31 17:53:59 and eat your space on rootfs with the rest that's not yet got processed during optification Mar 31 17:55:30 Ah. So I made the wrong thing in stopping the first boot at the running dots, if I understood. Right? Mar 31 17:55:41 right Mar 31 17:56:12 Isn't there a way to start optification again? Mar 31 17:56:27 lazyflashing takes maybe 10 minutes the first time, 2min for all further times Mar 31 17:57:08 To learn or to boot? Mar 31 17:57:44 you don't need to learn anything. It's really truly foolproof if you ever touched a terminal on linux Mar 31 17:58:21 comes with just.in.time onscreen instructions Mar 31 17:59:39 you literally just copy&paste that one commandline into your terminal and follow the instructions showing up Mar 31 17:59:54 So I should flash again, both eMMC and kernel, possibly with the lazy flashing, and at first boot wait maybe 10 minutes, right? Mar 31 18:00:18 right, but the lazyflashing tool tells you details Mar 31 18:03:08 Ok, thank you. Mar 31 18:04:38 yw :-) let me know if lazyflashing was flawless for you or anything needs inprovement Mar 31 18:11:09 19:33 < DocScrutinizer05> NotKit: I was talking about maemo Mar 31 18:11:15 17:33 < DocScrutinizer05> which 'legacy apps' do you want to dismiss? phoneui aka dialer? mediaplayer incl mafw? the whole pulseaudio shit we Mar 31 18:11:18 need to keep when we want decent phone audio? Mar 31 18:11:25 I am not sure if the PA stuff is needed for anything other than n900 Mar 31 18:11:40 Many of the others can likely be replaced at some point Mar 31 18:11:58 we were talking about "Devuan fpr N900" however Mar 31 18:12:05 but you said "maemo" Mar 31 18:12:39 why can't we just call it "hildon-desktop on devuan with as much nice things from maemo as possible" Mar 31 18:12:44 yes, obviously you can't use dialer with any other than N900 modem, as a lot of other hw-related stuff Mar 31 18:13:09 I would expect a dialer app to be mostly agnostic to the actual modem, e.g. ofono probably abstracts most of it? Mar 31 18:13:20 because that's a TERRIBLE and completely needless complication to call it that way Mar 31 18:13:38 Well, it seems to clear up the perceived purpose Mar 31 18:13:44 it seems to come up every time :) Mar 31 18:14:35 sorry that's as braindamaged as calling mint "debian based distrro with a new Theme and other fnacy little stuff" Mar 31 18:16:09 anyway afaik the issue is already decided upon, since the name of any CI/repo on devuan has been discussed and agreed upon a name containing 'maemo', for a number of sound reasons Mar 31 18:19:09 well, >>hildon-desktop on devuan with as much nice things from maemo as possible<< also contains "maemo" but I guess it's just a very clumsy URL Mar 31 18:20:02 you also ignore that maemo has upstart, devuan sysv-init right now Mar 31 18:21:04 Well, I think that a decent desktop kit should not depend on a specific init system. But I have yet to find out how much depends on upstart. Mar 31 18:21:18 bbl. Mar 31 18:21:44 unless you port (and maintain) maemo's special version of upstart to all devuan arch, jaromil won't feel happy with calling it Devuan-whatever Mar 31 18:22:38 Or just not use upstart... Mar 31 18:22:48 and of course you're free to port hildon to Devuan, but don't expect that to be what we're talking about Mar 31 18:23:22 then how would you expect apps from maemo repos to run on such system? Mar 31 18:23:49 since that's what fmg and others are aiming at Mar 31 18:24:37 how many apps depend specifically on upstart? are they foss? who are all the others? Mar 31 18:25:06 how does that care? are you volunteering to port them *all*? Mar 31 18:25:10 I am not aiming to run the whole system unmodified. Mar 31 18:25:42 then you're not aiming at same thing the current project does Mar 31 18:26:41 We'll see. Mar 31 18:26:47 the project goal AIUI is "rebase maemo on Devuan", not "port Hildon and a few other maemo bits to debian" Mar 31 18:26:49 I don't see the point of *all* apps if it becomes a PITA, and I specifically do not see the point in using a dead init system Mar 31 18:27:19 but I don't think we are anywhere near these points yet, so yeah. Mar 31 18:27:30 the point is we don't want to port a 1000 apps plus a complete OS Mar 31 18:27:43 Who said they need 1000 apps? Mar 31 18:27:54 who needs or doesn't need? Mar 31 18:27:57 I see it as a great way to get what I like from maemo, on a stable base, and drop all the dead sw that will only make everyones life worse Mar 31 18:28:26 go ahead then, and call it hildon desktop. simple as that Mar 31 18:28:59 it's probably not too hard to port HD to any other linux distro Mar 31 18:29:30 there is more than just hd, but I don't think breaking our backs over silly things (like the closed wifi daemon crap) makes any sense Mar 31 18:30:40 sorry, I duscussed that with fmg for like 6 weeks until finally we found out we agree on the goal, just not on the nomencalture to describe the way to reach it Mar 31 18:31:06 um, 'we'? what part of code/work are you doing? Mar 31 18:31:24 so i'm reluctant to start all over again with very same discussion Mar 31 18:31:56 unless your whole rant has some roots specific to some device Mar 31 18:33:19 for the long history see Mar 31 18:33:24 ~fptf Mar 31 18:33:25 extra, extra, read all about it, fptf is the Fremantle Porting Task Force, see http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=91308 Mar 31 18:34:50 but again, fptf was done specifically for neo900 or generic opening? Mar 31 18:49:46 so yeah. better name would be fremantle porting to neo900 task force Mar 31 18:50:13 leaving that out means it's not focused on any particular device **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 01 03:00:02 2017