**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Apr 06 03:00:03 2017
Apr 06 03:07:45 <Maxdamantus> As for "If you want a new kernel, I wonder why", afaik we're sort of forced to use really old software with our current kernel.
Apr 06 03:08:27 <Maxdamantus> Since recent versions of glibc don't support a kernel this old, and that's what distributors are targetting.
Apr 06 05:25:05 <KotCzarny> maxd: for distro makers, maybe. for users there will always be an image with old, smelly kernel, see allwinner situation in case of unsupported socs
Apr 06 05:34:25 <Maxdamantus> KotCzarny: well, users use what distro makers distribute.
Apr 06 06:12:44 <KotCzarny> and sometimes take what they distribute, add some changes and distribute own images
Apr 06 06:26:27 <Maxdamantus> Right, but you don't want to depend on that, since those are always outdated and usually only get more outdated.
Apr 06 06:27:26 <Maxdamantus> There are already people maintaining the up-to-date systems, which you should be using so you don't have to find some other system that someone has hacked together every few months/years.
Apr 06 16:20:56 <freemangordon> any idea how I can get XDG_..._DIR from c code without calling system("xdg-user-dir $DIR"); ?
Apr 06 16:25:05 <freemangordon> bencoh: KotCzarny: merlin1991: ^^^?
Apr 06 16:42:04 <KotCzarny> fmg, is that env var?
Apr 06 16:42:31 <Wizzup> freemangordon: getenv?
Apr 06 16:47:55 <freemangordon> no, it is not env var
Apr 06 16:48:07 <KotCzarny> what is it then?
Apr 06 16:48:25 <freemangordon> see $HOME/.config/user-dirs.dirs
Apr 06 16:49:30 <KotCzarny> if it's custom defined by software and not env var, you would have to mimic the logic to generate them
Apr 06 16:50:18 <freemangordon> KotCzarny: there are tools to read and update those files, see xdg-user-dirs package
Apr 06 16:50:21 <KotCzarny> maybe there is a dir?
Apr 06 16:50:27 <KotCzarny> s/dir/lib/
Apr 06 16:50:42 <freemangordon> but I can;t find a library to read them :)
Apr 06 16:51:38 <freemangordon> there is libxdg-basedir1, but it doesn;t seem to support custom dirs
Apr 06 16:51:50 <freemangordon> or I don;t understand how it works
Apr 06 16:52:54 <KotCzarny> rip the source code out of it?
Apr 06 16:53:32 <freemangordon> this is hackish :(
Apr 06 16:54:19 <Wizzup> I thought the values in there had to evaluated on start, so they'd end up in the environment
Apr 06 16:55:46 <freemangordon> doesn't seem to work like that
Apr 06 16:56:35 <freemangordon> for example there is no XDG_DOWNLOAD_DIR in the env
Apr 06 16:57:56 <KotCzarny> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/XDG_user_directories
Apr 06 16:58:04 <KotCzarny> seems you have few predefined dirs
Apr 06 16:58:04 <freemangordon> the same goes for music, videos etc dirs
Apr 06 16:58:22 <freemangordon> yes, you have, but how to get them by C code?
Apr 06 16:58:25 <KotCzarny> parse the ~/.config/user-dirs.dirs ?
Apr 06 16:58:29 <freemangordon> hehe
Apr 06 16:58:34 <KotCzarny> it should be easy enough
Apr 06 16:58:49 <freemangordon> and what if the format changes?
Apr 06 16:59:04 <freemangordon> I'd prefer to use a library if any
Apr 06 17:00:17 <Wizzup> the way I do it in my software: if it is not in the env, use the default value
Apr 06 17:00:34 <KotCzarny> yeah, and if format changes, update 
Apr 06 17:00:46 <Wizzup> That doesn't happen very often, though...
Apr 06 17:01:52 <KotCzarny> you can also start your own lib too
Apr 06 17:02:00 <KotCzarny> that's how they often are created ;)
Apr 06 17:10:28 <freemangordon> well, seems no other way but to call xdg-user-dir :(
Apr 06 17:11:58 <freemangordon> oh, and to make things even works, seems xdg-user-dir returns $HOME if there is no definition for what you look for, so you can;t distinguish between no definition for a directory and it is defined as $HOME
Apr 06 17:12:03 <freemangordon> WTF?!?
Apr 06 17:25:12 <Wizzup> freemangordon: I think there's something wrong with your setup if it doesn't end up in your environment
Apr 06 17:25:46 <Wizzup> The way I understood it, it was as simple as: Check if in env, if not in env, go for the specified default
Apr 06 17:26:12 <Wizzup> I don't have the file in my .config, so I cannot test it, but can't it simply be evaluated from the shell?
Apr 06 17:26:31 <Wizzup> It looks like this should be in /etc/profile or .profile
Apr 06 17:27:06 <KotCzarny>  $XDG_DATA_HOME defines the base directory relative to which user specific data files should be stored. If $XDG_DATA_HOME is either not set or empty, a default equal to $HOME/.local/share should be used. 
Apr 06 17:27:10 <KotCzarny> https://specifications.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html
Apr 06 17:27:39 <Wizzup> Exactly
Apr 06 17:27:46 <KotCzarny> it's for DATA, there is another for CONFIG too
Apr 06 17:28:03 <KotCzarny>  $XDG_CONFIG_HOME defines the base directory relative to which user specific configuration files should be stored. If $XDG_CONFIG_HOME is either not set or empty, a default equal to $HOME/.config should be used. 
Apr 06 17:28:41 <KotCzarny> so according to standard, you can just getenv() and if empty, use defaults
Apr 06 17:38:22 <freemangordon> Wizzup: my setup is what Canonical have set :)
Apr 06 17:38:48 <Wizzup> then they just want you to default to the env variables :p 
Apr 06 17:38:50 <KotCzarny> so they've used defaults ;)
Apr 06 17:38:55 <Wizzup> (and if they are not set, set to defaults)
Apr 06 17:39:13 <freemangordon> no, because this is what I have in the config fie
Apr 06 17:39:40 <freemangordon> https://pastebin.com/HpBL6FPX
Apr 06 17:39:52 <Wizzup> The freedesktop.org spec tells -developers- to use the env, and if it is not in the env, use the defaults. They don't tell you to read the config files
Apr 06 17:40:09 <freemangordon> XDG_NOKIA_CAMERA_DIR is set by me
Apr 06 17:40:11 <Wizzup> If the configuration does not end up in the enviroment, that's not -your- problem, but the distro issue
Apr 06 17:40:15 <freemangordon> the other are "stock"
Apr 06 17:40:28 <Wizzup> Is that specified by the XDG standard?
Apr 06 17:40:33 <Wizzup> Or is it what maemo uses?
Apr 06 17:42:30 <Wizzup> If you want the variables in the env and the distro does not set them, try some wrapper script like: #!/bin/sh source .config/xdg-thingie && exec my_program ?
Apr 06 17:48:13 <freemangordon> Wizzup: this is what Ubuntu uses
Apr 06 17:48:34 <Wizzup> What do you mean? I don't understand
Apr 06 17:48:42 <Wizzup> Do you mean the XDG_NOKIA_CAMERA_DIR?
Apr 06 17:48:45 <freemangordon> Wizzup: pastebin ^^^ is from my PC
Apr 06 17:48:59 <Wizzup> I realise; but I think we're not communicating well
Apr 06 17:49:19 <Wizzup> The *proper* (afaik) way to read any XDG setting from a program is to read the environment and fallback to hardcoded defaults
Apr 06 17:49:21 <freemangordon> that one I set manually by using xdg-user-dirs-update --set NOKIA_CAMERA
Apr 06 17:49:35 <Wizzup> If they don't end up in the environment, that's a bash profile issue, but an issue in the program
Apr 06 17:49:48 <Wizzup> e.g. the fix is not to call system() on the xdg-user-dir program, AFAIK
Apr 06 17:50:02 <Wizzup> But instead to have the environment variables be set before your program is started
Apr 06 17:50:10 <Wizzup> s/but an/but not an/
Apr 06 17:52:28 <freemangordon> hmm, ok
Apr 06 17:52:54 <freemangordon> thanks, will see what can be done and why those vars are not there
Apr 06 17:53:46 <Wizzup> The other question is what ubuntu does with variables that start with XDG that are not defined by the XDG spec
Apr 06 17:54:10 <Wizzup> I don't know if XDG_NOKIA_CAMERA_DIR is defined in the xdg spec, and what the fd.o website says about vars that start with XDG but are not in the XDG spec
Apr 06 17:54:15 <Wizzup> Perhaps ubuntu somehow filters unknown ones
Apr 06 18:04:05 <freemangordon> Wizzup: nokia_camera is deffinitely out of specs
Apr 06 18:07:36 <KotCzarny> nokia, the former leader of setting standards!
Apr 06 18:11:39 <buZz> it just follows alt-specs
Apr 06 19:47:55 <TheKit> is XDG_NOKIA_CAMERA_DIR for storing camera pictures?
Apr 06 19:53:23 <Sicelo> yes
Apr 06 20:26:32 <TheKit> SailfishOS uses $XDG_PICTURES_DIR/Camera
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Apr 07 03:00:00 2017