**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri May 12 03:00:03 2017
May 12 08:35:10 <Wizzup> is openmediaplayer not yet in the normal repos?
May 12 08:36:54 <sixwheeledbeast> #define normal
May 12 09:33:47 <Wizzup> Something I can install from the normal package manager
May 12 09:33:52 <Wizzup> e.g. stuck in dev repo
May 12 09:35:29 <DocScrutinizer05> http://maemo.org/packages/view/openmediaplayer/  nobody promoting it
May 12 09:35:42 <sixwheeledbeast> it should be in extras-devel 
May 12 09:36:01 <sixwheeledbeast> oh hi
May 12 09:36:38 <KotCzarny> might be because they got fed up with -devel/-testing/extras cycle?
May 12 09:37:09 <KotCzarny> or dont know how to do it
May 12 09:38:31 <KotCzarny> Random Question
May 12 09:38:35 <KotCzarny> What is the last Maemo release's name?
May 12 09:38:38 <KotCzarny> i dont know?!
May 12 09:38:39 <DocScrutinizer05> Wizzup: pester the developer to promote package
May 12 09:38:46 <KotCzarny> is it fremantle? or harmattan?
May 12 09:39:06 <KotCzarny> those anti bots questions are actually anti users too ;)
May 12 09:39:49 <sixwheeledbeast> it has never been promoted as it was never finished. I don't know if gidzzz has finished working on it to a stable state yet
May 12 09:39:51 <KotCzarny> definitely t.m.o didnt accept 'fremantle' as an answer
May 12 09:40:27 <sixwheeledbeast> Diablo?
May 12 09:40:37 <sixwheeledbeast> maybe it's old question
May 12 09:40:37 <DocScrutinizer05> huh?
May 12 09:41:18 <KotCzarny> but at least i got 'answer to the universe and everything' right
May 12 09:41:46 <KotCzarny> definitely requires some inside knowledge when trying to do t.m.o search ;)
May 12 09:42:24 <sixwheeledbeast> maybe just login to avoid the question
May 12 09:42:24 <KotCzarny> Last Activity: 2016-11-13 16:48
May 12 09:42:36 <KotCzarny> uh, gidzzz seems has left the building
May 12 09:43:44 <KotCzarny> Latest commit 4d51170 on Nov 13, 2016
May 12 09:44:08 <sixwheeledbeast> oh and the answer is Harmattan
May 12 09:44:29 <sixwheeledbeast> well it thinks the answer is anyway
May 12 09:44:53 <KotCzarny> it's debatable if harmattan is maemo
May 12 09:45:00 <sixwheeledbeast> exactly
May 12 09:52:29 <KotCzarny> yup, you will have to wait for thebug, he has that board and is the only one that can confirm
May 12 09:52:44 <KotCzarny> he lives in different time zone 
May 12 09:54:45 <KotCzarny> oops. wrong chan
May 12 10:57:49 <sicelo> at least getting packages to -testing is easy . . . i don't see why anyone would be fed up with that
May 12 11:02:27 <KotCzarny> because it breaks development trance?
May 12 11:02:49 <KotCzarny> ie. you have to switch from cozy text to browser and click things
May 12 11:10:33 <DocScrutinizer05> sicelo: nobody is fed up with promoting. It's devels simply giving a flying F* about which repo their package is in. Or basically about packaging at all, generally
May 12 11:11:34 <DocScrutinizer05> seems most devels and users don't even understand the idea of maemo-testing, mistaking it as a sympathy contest
May 12 11:12:47 <DocScrutinizer05> it's maemo.testing, NOT maemo-most-popular
May 12 11:13:33 <DocScrutinizer05> testinf comments like "I love it, 1 thunb up from me" should get their account closed
May 12 11:13:33 <sixwheeledbeast> It doesn't help the amount of package testers tho and the time it takes to test a package
May 12 11:14:08 <DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: indeed
May 12 11:14:27 <DocScrutinizer05> testers are a rare species, and that's a real problem
May 12 11:14:45 <KotCzarny> and killing users is not gonna help neither
May 12 11:15:06 <KotCzarny> some people like the idea of dead repos being dead. but tidy as hell
May 12 11:15:53 <DocScrutinizer05> I still have that pet project idea to wrap ALL apps in maemo-testing into a runtime test wrapper that opens a "nag screen" on closing the app. That nag screen collects mem usage etc values automatically and appends a comment form user to make an automated email to the testing infra
May 12 11:16:20 <sixwheeledbeast> I dont have the time I had to spend testing various packages like i did.
May 12 11:17:06 <sixwheeledbeast> automatic testing of root and opt memory would reduce the testing time greatly
May 12 11:17:20 <DocScrutinizer05> I occasionally do testing, but very raely and not many packages are new in testing. The ones still lingering there are not the ones I feel like giving them a test
May 12 11:17:33 <sixwheeledbeast> :nod:
May 12 11:17:50 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, that's the idea: automate the usual leak and hog test
May 12 11:18:48 <DocScrutinizer05> should be rather simple to do to wrap such thing around $arbitrary-testing-app-pkg
May 12 11:19:26 <sixwheeledbeast> a large number of new users will be unaware of the QA procedure anyway. #speedpatch
May 12 11:19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> ROTFL
May 12 11:19:43 <DocScrutinizer05> ~jrtools
May 12 11:19:43 <infobot> methinks jrtools is http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools
May 12 11:20:24 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/tools#AFTER_FLASHING
May 12 11:21:50 <DocScrutinizer05> needs a "maemo fremantle for newcomers, 2017 edition"
May 12 11:23:03 <DocScrutinizer05> starting with the very basics like "maemo is very much _like_ debian, but it IS NOT debian. For example the packaging (and thus proecedures you're possibly used to, like apt-get dist-upgrade) fail epically on maemo"
May 12 11:26:25 <sixwheeledbeast> "WAS" very much like Debian?
May 12 11:26:27 <DocScrutinizer05> just throwing a new sources.list at noobs doesn't help them to understanf how repos *really* work, regarding maemo-devel|testing|extras, tools, whatnot
May 12 11:26:36 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed LOL
May 12 11:26:59 <DocScrutinizer05> nice place to have a short exursion to Devuan
May 12 11:27:10 <DocScrutinizer05> and how maemo debian and devuan relate
May 12 11:27:25 <Wizzup> welp, I guess I can't ask a question without a non-constructive debate following
May 12 11:28:09 <DocScrutinizer05> when you think this debate is non-constructive then readjust your filters and attitude
May 12 11:28:17 <sixwheeledbeast> sudo givemeworkingmaemopackages
May 12 11:30:24 <DocScrutinizer05> one thing's for sure: calling this discussion non-constructive for sure doesn'T qualify as a constructive contribution
May 12 11:35:46 <DocScrutinizer05> hmmmm, zzztop lacks a feature: should have `zzztop -t=0` which collects data infinitely until zzztop gets a ^C or other signal that stops it, then dumps the results
May 12 11:36:35 <DocScrutinizer05> as you might have guessed, that would be useful for the above mentioned testing wrapper
May 12 11:38:43 <tx-tmp> I'm having an odd issue where my N900 refuses to boot after reflashing. When I boot it the white LED fades on yet it doesn't "vibrate" and show anything on screen. From there on nothing happens and I have to remove the battery to boot again.
May 12 11:38:53 <tx-tmp> Anyone that might have a clue on what to try next?
May 12 11:39:16 <tx-tmp> I reflashed eMMC/FIASCO.
May 12 11:39:22 <tx-tmp> To no avail. ;_;
May 12 11:39:29 <DocScrutinizer05> did you use lazyflashing?
May 12 11:40:17 <DocScrutinizer05> sounds like an issue with bootloader
May 12 11:41:21 <DocScrutinizer05> if youlike, I can talk you through a series of tests
May 12 11:41:43 <DocScrutinizer05> prerequisites: you're using a linux PC
May 12 11:41:55 <tx-tmp> Lazyflashing? You mean the .sh from the Wiki? I assumed bootloader issues as well, but cold flashing does not seem to be needed (I tried it anyhow; didn't help).
May 12 11:41:59 <tx-tmp> Yes, I'm on Linux.
May 12 11:42:07 <tx-tmp> Would be very much appreciated.
May 12 11:42:10 <DocScrutinizer05> ~lazyflashing
May 12 11:42:11 <infobot> from memory, lazyflashing is http://wiki.maemo.org/Updating_the_tablet_firmware#The_Lazy_Approach
May 12 11:42:16 <tx-tmp> Didn't try.
May 12 11:42:28 <tx-tmp> Just used the .deb flasher by hand.
May 12 11:42:40 <DocScrutinizer05> please try this first, it's the most siple and secure way to do flashing right
May 12 11:42:55 <tx-tmp> I will! Thank you.
May 12 11:43:08 <DocScrutinizer05> yw :-) please report back here
May 12 11:44:05 * DocScrutinizer05 should try to move lazyflashing to maemo infra, just in case his server goes south some time
May 12 11:46:06 <DocScrutinizer05> ouch >>cold flashing does not seem to be needed (I tried it anyhow<< this _might_ have had an opposite effect
May 12 11:47:30 <sixwheeledbeast> you can zzztop -t=999999999 it?
May 12 11:47:48 <DocScrutinizer05> tx-tmp: first thing to do: check your linux PC /var/log/syslog or /var/log/messages (or dmesg, worst case) for logs of powered down N900 getting connected to PC via USB
May 12 11:48:16 <DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: yes, but I guess it won't dump statistics when you abort it, right?
May 12 11:48:47 <sixwheeledbeast> oic
May 12 11:50:09 <sixwheeledbeast> powertop is the same? I suppose it needs to calculate values over a set period of time
May 12 11:51:02 <DocScrutinizer05> http://paste.ubuntu.com/24560254
May 12 11:51:06 <DocScrutinizer05> yep, same
May 12 11:51:22 <tx-tmp> It does show up in the systemlog, yes, and I didn't overwrite the bootloader (no worries there)!
May 12 11:51:25 <tx-tmp> Anyhow, I tried lazyflashing
May 12 11:51:40 <tx-tmp> Final step is "please remove battery, unplug USB, then reinsert battery and let device boot and init system which may take a while" - after which it still boots in the same way as before. :(
May 12 11:51:57 <DocScrutinizer05> damn, zzztop is perl
May 12 11:52:01 <tx-tmp> It worked yesterday, by the way. Left it to charge overnight and it died.
May 12 11:52:13 <tx-tmp> Might be relevant, or might not be, but I tried to save a video file which corrupted yesterday.
May 12 11:52:53 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flatbatrecover
May 12 11:52:53 <infobot> Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered ***NOKIA WALLCHARGER*** to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber shut off -> start over again with ~flatbatrecover while already searching for a new battery. CAVEAT! Only works when ~rootfs OK (no ~bootloop)
May 12 11:52:53 <tx-tmp> The weird thing is that the battery is full, and booting it in "charge mode" still seems to charge.
May 12 11:53:01 <DocScrutinizer05> ~bootloop
May 12 11:53:01 <infobot> rumour has it, bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device.
May 12 11:53:47 <DocScrutinizer05> ((final step)) please provide full session log pastebin
May 12 11:53:55 <tx-tmp> @flatbat: Battery light is steady green. After leaving it on for a bit it does turn into a flashing amber light. (Odd sidenote: it turned into a green flashing light for a bit, too.)
May 12 11:54:11 <DocScrutinizer05> lazyflashing shouldn't make "device boot as usualy"
May 12 11:54:16 <sixwheeledbeast> I thought you knew it was perl?
May 12 11:54:23 <sixwheeledbeast> ~zzztop
May 12 11:54:24 <infobot> zzztop is, like, - the better and even FOSS powertop - http://wiki.maemo.org/Zzztop
May 12 11:54:44 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
May 12 11:54:46 <sixwheeledbeast> fatphil is the one to ask
May 12 11:54:48 <tx-tmp> And it doesn't bootloop. Looks more like a freeze/panic. I have to pull the battery out before it can attempt to boot again (white LED fading on).
May 12 11:55:03 <DocScrutinizer05> I thought it was perl, but I realized I have no idea how to patch perl ;-)
May 12 11:55:10 <DocScrutinizer05> to get a trap in
May 12 11:55:54 <DocScrutinizer05> (fatphil) I know :-)
May 12 11:56:19 <DocScrutinizer05> but I guess I can learn as much perl as needed for such simple patch
May 12 11:58:00 <DocScrutinizer05> tx-tmp: please compare http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Joerg_rw/PC_syslog_of_USB_enum
May 12 12:01:10 <DocScrutinizer05> if those 3 stages are OK for your device, your bootloader should be OK and a lazyflashing should fix your issue
May 12 12:02:06 <DocScrutinizer05> if 3rd stage (maemo, idProduct=01c7) doesn't show, your bootloader still is OK and same as above applies
May 12 12:02:57 <DocScrutinizer05> if stage 2 (idProduct=0105) doesn't show, you need coldflashing
May 12 12:04:30 <DocScrutinizer05> next test: hold 'u' key while plugging in powered-down device to USB, check if NOKIA screen with USB icon comes up
May 12 12:04:46 <DocScrutinizer05> if not, your battery is probably empty
May 12 12:06:28 <DocScrutinizer05> green idicator light however is quite "strange" since it is a feature of maemo system already booted iirc. Shouldn't get set by NOLO nor hardware
May 12 12:06:49 <DocScrutinizer05> please allow 60s for booting
May 12 12:06:54 <DocScrutinizer05> minimum
May 12 12:07:21 <DocScrutinizer05> after flashing, a few minutes with black screen are ok until system firstboot finished
May 12 12:07:46 <DocScrutinizer05> it's all in comments printed by lazyflashing ;-)
May 12 12:09:33 <DocScrutinizer05> on low battery NOLO tries to directly boot into maemo system to charge battery, which is a very braindamaged thing to do when system is defect and needs reflash
May 12 12:09:37 <DocScrutinizer05> see
May 12 12:09:40 <DocScrutinizer05> ~bootloop
May 12 12:09:40 <infobot> methinks bootloop is when your device has broken rootfilesystem, so during reboot it fails on some service startup or kernel module load and thus reboots. This *drains* battery! And you can't reflash to stop bootloop when battery is drained. Recharge your battery by other means before reflashing. E.g. using ~rescueOS. Or external charger or BL-5J compatible other device.
May 12 12:10:41 <DocScrutinizer05> bbl, busy
May 12 12:16:08 <tx-tmp> https://ybin.me/p/a7ae44c55bfeb1d6#+ByyYq+Tg5YURtuAkgfb62VB5+4BlLWfHEyrYssgm6s= Looks fine to me. Reaches stage 3.
May 12 12:18:30 <DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: first googlehit: http://perltricks.com/article/37/2013/8/18/Catch-and-Handle-Signals-in-Perl/
May 12 12:18:47 <DocScrutinizer05> tx-tmp: yes
May 12 12:19:06 <DocScrutinizer05> try lazyflashing, follow the instructions verbatim
May 12 12:19:32 <DocScrutinizer05> don't assume, don't connect device without being istructed to do so
May 12 12:24:22 <DocScrutinizer05> here's a browsable version of the script: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/maemo-my-private-workdir_v2/flash-it-all.sh
May 12 12:29:01 <DocScrutinizer05> (([2017-05-12 Fri 13:51:40] <tx-tmp> Final step is "please remove battery, unplug USB, then reinsert battery and let device boot and init system which may take a while" - after which it still boots in the same way as before. ))  "A while" here means several minutes
May 12 12:29:55 <DocScrutinizer05> did you answer "YES" (three chars UpperCase) to the question?
May 12 12:30:39 <APic> lol
May 12 12:36:12 <DocScrutinizer05> tx-tmp: ooh, and for good measure, remove SIM and uSD
May 12 12:37:05 <tx-tmp> Sorry, incomplete response, got a phone call from work so I was afk for a bit.
May 12 12:37:17 <DocScrutinizer05> uSD might have filesystems that impair the boot process when they are e.g. unknown or need fsck. SIM known to make boot process block in very rare cases
May 12 12:37:40 <tx-tmp> I did lazyflash exactly according to instructions, sadly, the problem remains the same (as before flashing).
May 12 12:37:47 <tx-tmp> I did answer YES and SIM/SD are removed.
May 12 12:38:21 <KotCzarny> maybe you should log whole flashing session and pastebin it?
May 12 12:39:01 <tx-tmp> It's just a normal flashing session, output is exactly as one would expect when looking at the .sh and assuming a non-faulty device. :)
May 12 12:39:23 <tx-tmp> The odd thing is that the screen doesn't turn on and it doesn't give the classical vibration/jolt upon boot.
May 12 12:39:30 <tx-tmp> It's as if it gets stuck before that part...
May 12 12:39:38 <KotCzarny> do you have spare battery?
May 12 12:39:53 <tx-tmp> I will try a different battery, I think I have a spare one at home.
May 12 12:40:15 <tx-tmp> Wouldn't be surprised if it's a battery issue. It's been showing up as being 0% full in the OS even when it was actually charged...
May 12 12:40:20 <tx-tmp> Ancient little battery.
May 12 12:40:57 <tx-tmp> Also, thanks for all the help Doc, very much appreciate it.
May 12 12:41:05 <KotCzarny> mine is 8 years old, still using it ;)
May 12 12:42:53 <tx-tmp> Same!
May 12 12:43:22 <KotCzarny> but it's charged, ie taken from working device?
May 12 12:43:23 <DocScrutinizer05> tx-tmp: please test the hold-Ukey thing
May 12 12:43:43 <tx-tmp> Yeah, this battery works the N900 of a friend.
May 12 12:43:44 <tx-tmp> Will do.
May 12 12:44:41 <DocScrutinizer05> if your NOLO doesn't show the NOKIA screen (without, then with backlight on), yur display is defect
May 12 12:44:51 <DocScrutinizer05> of NOLO is defect
May 12 12:44:54 <DocScrutinizer05> or*
May 12 12:45:21 <tx-tmp> No screen is shown whatsoever.
May 12 12:45:33 <tx-tmp> I would accept the screen being broken, but it bugs me that the boot-vibration is also missing.
May 12 12:45:38 <tx-tmp> Which is a different piece of HW.
May 12 12:45:38 <KotCzarny> broken display shouldnt affect lack of vibra on powerup
May 12 12:46:26 <DocScrutinizer05> NOLO behaves strange when display not connected
May 12 12:47:03 <DocScrutinizer05> when NOLO can't initialize the display controller, it will not kick vibra afaik
May 12 12:47:16 <tx-tmp> Mhm, interesting. Might actually be that the display died in that case.
May 12 12:47:34 <DocScrutinizer05> usually cable
May 12 12:47:37 <KotCzarny> swapping display part is 5 minutes of work
May 12 12:47:38 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flexcable
May 12 12:47:42 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flex
May 12 12:47:42 <infobot> i guess flex is a sucky nick used by freaks, or flex is also the Fast Lexical analyzer generator. A Lex compatible scanner generator.
May 12 12:47:55 <DocScrutinizer05> ~uselss
May 12 12:48:22 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listvalues flex*cable
May 12 12:48:25 <infobot> Factoid search of 'flex*cable' by value (1): fract-o-rama.
May 12 12:48:40 <KotCzarny> ~fract-o-rama
May 12 12:48:40 <infobot> Qt-based, flexible fractal generation program. URL: http://locutus.kingwoodcable.com/jfd/fractal/
May 12 12:48:46 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listvalues flat*cable
May 12 12:48:47 <infobot> Factoid search of 'flat*cable' by value (1): jargon boa.
May 12 12:48:48 <KotCzarny> cute
May 12 12:49:47 <DocScrutinizer05> ~fpc
May 12 12:51:30 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listvalues maemo*cable
May 12 12:51:31 <infobot> Factoid search of 'maemo*cable' by value returned no results.
May 12 12:51:47 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listvalues cale*maemo
May 12 12:51:48 <infobot> Factoid search of 'cale*maemo' by value returned no results.
May 12 12:51:52 <DocScrutinizer05> ~listvalues cable*maemo
May 12 12:51:53 <infobot> Factoid search of 'cable*maemo' by value returned no results.
May 12 12:51:58 <DocScrutinizer05> no idea
May 12 12:52:06 <DocScrutinizer05> seach in tmo
May 12 12:53:02 <DocScrutinizer05> usually the flat plastic connector cable from display slide to mainboard, particularly the B2B conn 'plug' at end, which breaks
May 12 12:54:14 <tx-tmp> I'll try fixing that one, yeah.
May 12 12:54:21 <tx-tmp> It was about time to buy a spare N900 anyway...
May 12 12:56:36 <DocScrutinizer05> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/BRAND-NEW-CAMERA-FLAT-MAIN-FLEX-CABLE-RIBBON-FOR-NOKIA-N900-C57R/32262531025.html?spm=2114.40010208.4.56.xrEOVs
May 12 13:09:00 <sixwheeledbeast> ~fixribbon
May 12 13:09:00 <infobot> [fixribbon] http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1324171#post1324171
May 12 13:09:03 <sixwheeledbeast> ?
May 12 13:19:23 <tx-tmp> Thanks. :)
May 12 13:56:39 <kerio> my mobile operator now has free national roaming for data ;o
May 12 13:56:44 <kerio> all the 2G irc
May 12 13:59:37 <kerio> i have like barely any reason not to leave xchat open in perpetuity i guess
May 12 14:01:21 <KotCzarny> two words: battery drain ?
May 12 14:03:51 <kerio> it's gprs tho
May 12 14:04:20 <KotCzarny> see? battery drain
May 12 14:05:14 <deepy> KotCzarny: compared to what?
May 12 14:05:55 <KotCzarny> 3g
May 12 14:05:59 <KotCzarny> and up
May 12 14:06:16 <deepy> Are you saying the battery drain on gprs is greater than on 3g?
May 12 14:06:27 <KotCzarny> yup, 2g time slots are big
May 12 14:06:28 <Wizzup> with a passive conn?
May 12 14:06:38 <Wizzup> or if you're using it actively
May 12 14:07:27 <deepy> Actually, I can't argue this becuase I don't remember if I'm remembering the drain with or without HSPA :E
May 12 14:09:03 <KotCzarny> also, being slower, it requires long transmit events
May 12 14:10:32 <KotCzarny> https://android.stackexchange.com/questions/44628/2g-versus-3g-does-it-really-save-battery
May 12 14:10:37 <bencoh> KotCzarny: actually, no, definitely not (regarding gprs vs umts)
May 12 14:10:44 <KotCzarny> funny numbers in 'data only' scenario
May 12 14:11:58 <KotCzarny> and remember that with tcp there is much less idling when there is some connection going on
May 12 14:12:07 <KotCzarny> as every packet requires answer
May 12 14:12:29 <ShadowJK> The "lots of very small but frequent data transfers" category is missing from that link :)
May 12 14:12:39 <KotCzarny> and i assume kerio sits on many channels
May 12 16:58:40 <DocScrutinizer05> ~#maemo flexcable is <reply>see fixribbon
May 12 16:58:40 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05: okay
May 12 16:58:46 <DocScrutinizer05> ~flexcable
May 12 16:58:47 <infobot> well, fixribbon is http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=1324171#post1324171
May 12 17:00:01 <DocScrutinizer05> kerio: national roaming??
May 12 17:00:12 <kerio> my operator is 3G-only
May 12 17:00:16 <kerio> well, with some 4G
May 12 17:00:31 <kerio> so it offered roaming on the 2G operator for a while
May 12 17:00:39 <kerio> but data was not included
May 12 17:00:40 <DocScrutinizer05> we got that since... A-band here, and I have xchat open 25/7/365
May 12 17:01:53 <DocScrutinizer05> we had like 4 primary operators, recently O2 bought out E-plus
May 12 17:02:11 <DocScrutinizer05> so now O2, Vodafone, Telekom
May 12 17:02:28 <DocScrutinizer05> everything else are minute resellers
May 12 17:03:29 <DocScrutinizer05> in the early days O2 (E1 band) used roaming on Telekom's D1 band in areas where they had no own coverage
May 12 17:03:37 <DocScrutinizer05> via Swisscom ;-P
May 12 17:04:07 <DocScrutinizer05> now all three providers are nationwide coverage
May 12 17:04:36 <DocScrutinizer05> some minute resellers offer roaming between 2 or 3 of the providers
May 12 17:05:22 <DocScrutinizer05> all 3 providers now use D and E bands as well as other (harmonized, so far) bands for UMTS
May 12 17:06:37 <DocScrutinizer05> compare that to 3rd world telecom nations like USA where you need roaming to go from east LA to west LA
May 12 17:08:42 <DocScrutinizer05> and in 4 weeks an EU-wide regulation forbids roaming primium charge in whole EU
May 12 17:09:42 <DocScrutinizer05> so we have free roaming from Norway(?) to Ceuta (Spain, on Afrika)
May 12 17:10:17 <DocScrutinizer05> byebye "Great" Britain
May 12 17:21:20 <DocScrutinizer05> ooh, and all 3 providers provide all RATs from 2G to LTE
May 12 17:21:47 <DocScrutinizer05> they differ slightly in LTE max speed
May 12 17:26:14 <Enrico_Menotti> Hello. I'd like to ask a few general things about Maemo architecture, and operating systems in general. Although I have Devuan booting on the N900, and now also X and gtk+ on top of it, I'm not sure I refer to all the OS components with their (strictly) correct names. Up to now I decided to follow a quite heuristic approach to OS's, in order to grab immediately a practical flavour of theoretical concepts. Now I got
May 12 17:26:15 <Enrico_Menotti>  that, and I have a few components in my hand, and I feel it's time to put some order on concepts. For sure what I will ask are very basic things, but I don't feel much ashamed for it - if I can get more sure of what I'm talking about, that would be good. Ok?
May 12 17:29:03 <KotCzarny> ~ask
May 12 17:29:03 <infobot> Questions in the channel should be specific, informative, complete, concise, and on-topic.  Don't ask if you can ask a question first.  Don't ask if a person is there; just ask what you intended to ask them.  Better questions more frequently yield better answers.  We are all here voluntarily or against our will.
May 12 17:29:56 <Enrico_Menotti> So first, a general question about OS architecture, in general. As I have been learning in the last few weeks, an OS is composed fundamentally by a kernel and a file system (possibly with an initial ram disk), and on top of that one may have a stack for running a desktop environment. Right?
May 12 17:30:09 <Enrico_Menotti> KotCzarny (A minute, I'm asking.)
May 12 17:33:11 <Enrico_Menotti> Now in common language I'm used to hear talking about "Linux" as an OS, with all its possible flavours (such as Debian, Devuan, Ubuntu, etc.). But if I got it right, strictly speaking the name "Linux" only defines the kernel, while the OS includes the file system as well. So this is the first point I'd like to be sure of.
May 12 17:35:04 <Enrico_Menotti> The second is about the term "Operating System": if I got it right, as stated above, it comprises *both* kernel and file system, but what about the desktop environment? Should it be considered part of the OS?
May 12 17:37:33 <Enrico_Menotti> And now about Maemo specifically: the kernel is Linux (patched?), the file system is derived from Debian's, and the desktop environment runs on top of gtk+ (modded for Maemo). Is this right?
May 12 17:37:54 <DocScrutinizer05> the correct name is usually GNU/Linux which is kernel, filesystem and userland basic system services
May 12 17:39:08 <DocScrutinizer05> usually you consider the OS being kernel, filesystem drivers, and all the basic userland tools and processes/daemons/services
May 12 17:39:52 <DocScrutinizer05> OS (and several, but not all, available filesystems) are linux, while the userland stuff is GNU
May 12 17:40:19 <DocScrutinizer05> unless it isn't, e.g upstart or systemd prolly isn't GNU
May 12 17:40:51 <DocScrutinizer05> ~gnu
May 12 17:40:52 <infobot> gnu is, like, an animal having a drooping beard. And it's also an antelope.
May 12 17:40:59 <DocScrutinizer05> MEH!
May 12 17:41:04 <Enrico_Menotti> :D
May 12 17:41:08 <DocScrutinizer05> ~wiki GNU
May 12 17:41:12 <infobot> At https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU (URL), Wikipedia explains: "{{about|the operating system|the animal|Wildebeest|the free software project|GNU Project|other uses}} {{Infobox OS | logo = Heckert GNU white.svg | logo size = 100px | screenshot = HURD Live CD.png | caption = Debian GNU/Hurd console startup and login | family = Unix-like | developer = Community | source model = Free software | marketing target = Personal computers, mobile devices, ...
May 12 17:44:08 <DocScrutinizer05> and no, a desktop isn't usually considered a tightly OS-related component
May 12 17:44:56 <DocScrutinizer05> though some DEs only run on a particular OS, many are pretty OS-agnostic, I think KDE even runs on windows ;-D
May 12 17:46:03 <DocScrutinizer05> Apple's OS is not linux (and even less GNU), but it's still a unix of sorts, and stuff like KDE and GNU tools work on OS-X
May 12 17:47:33 <Enrico_Menotti> Ok, so fundamentally OS = kernel + filesystem management + services, right?
May 12 17:48:13 <DocScrutinizer05> there's one common denominator nowadays and that's POSIX which defines systemcalls that are identical on all POSIX compliant systems, no matter if GNU/linux or GNU/hurd or *BSD or OS-X or windows
May 12 17:48:26 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, that's quite right
May 12 17:49:02 <DocScrutinizer05> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operating_system
May 12 17:52:46 <DocScrutinizer05> *usually* you get a OS bundled with a wealth of userland applications made to run on that OS
May 12 17:53:33 <Enrico_Menotti> Ok, now about "Linux". Is it just the kernel? Or also the filesystem management? And services are excluded from the "Linux" definition, being referred to as "GNU"?
May 12 17:53:42 <DocScrutinizer05> so many people refer to both the OS and the apps when they talk about their (operating) System
May 12 17:54:11 <DocScrutinizer05> that's a tough question, see above
May 12 17:54:44 <DocScrutinizer05> also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy
May 12 17:55:41 <Enrico_Menotti> Ah so that's not well defined, right? (I read both things here and there over the web.)
May 12 17:57:44 <Enrico_Menotti> In the last link you posted, e.g., they talk about "Linux kernel".
May 12 17:57:45 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
May 12 17:58:11 <DocScrutinizer05> for shits & giggles, read about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd
May 12 17:58:59 <DocScrutinizer05> running gag: is Hurd already released?
May 12 18:00:39 <Enrico_Menotti> Ok so it's not just me having no clear ideas. Nice to hear. :)
May 12 18:01:51 <Enrico_Menotti> About Maemo: the kernel is Linux (patched?), the file system is derived from Debian's, and the desktop environment runs on top of gtk+ (modded for Maemo). Is this right?
May 12 18:03:19 <DocScrutinizer05> the kernel of maemo is pretty much a plain upstream linux kernel, though Nokia added a few device drivers that were not (initially) upstreamed and thus considered Nokia-specific (though thery are FOSS) by some
May 12 18:03:37 <DocScrutinizer05> the file systems are plain upstream
May 12 18:03:50 <DocScrutinizer05> the file system drivers that is
May 12 18:04:08 <DocScrutinizer05> often people call a disk image a "filesystem"
May 12 18:05:16 <DocScrutinizer05> the desktop environment is Hildon which is based on a X11 flavor called matchbox iirc, with a window manager/desktop manager developed by Nokia on top
May 12 18:06:03 <DocScrutinizer05> (the latter would be hildon-desktop, hildon-home, etc)
May 12 18:06:14 <DocScrutinizer05> matchbox is upstream
May 12 18:07:20 <DocScrutinizer05> and yes, hildon uses gtk2+ modified for the usecase
May 12 18:09:27 <DocScrutinizer05> the major problem with the kernel is: Maemo has some userland libs that are basically closed source replacement for proper lernel drivers. Particularly for the OMAP3 Graphics engine PowerVR
May 12 18:09:57 <DocScrutinizer05> s/lernel/kernel/
May 12 18:09:57 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: the major problem with the kernel is: Maemo has some userland libs that are basically closed source replacement for proper kernel drivers. Particularly for the OMAP3 Graphics engine PowerVR
May 12 18:10:49 <DocScrutinizer05> another huge part is the stack of libs and daemons that talks to the modem
May 12 18:11:26 <DocScrutinizer05> a thitd is the stuff related to the OMAP DSP
May 12 18:11:32 <DocScrutinizer05> third*
May 12 18:11:48 <Enrico_Menotti> Digital Signal Processor?
May 12 18:11:52 <DocScrutinizer05> yep
May 12 18:11:57 <Enrico_Menotti> Ok.
May 12 18:12:19 <Enrico_Menotti> The part for the modem, is that open source or not?
May 12 18:12:26 <DocScrutinizer05> nope, closed
May 12 18:12:31 <Enrico_Menotti> :(
May 12 18:12:34 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
May 12 18:13:05 <Enrico_Menotti> So up to now the only OS which is able to use the N900 as a cell phone is Maemo?
May 12 18:13:18 <DocScrutinizer05> there are replacements like ofono but they are not plug-in replacement for the existing stuff, they have different concept and API
May 12 18:13:23 <Wizzup> Enrico_Menotti: no
May 12 18:13:31 <Wizzup> some people have been able to make calls
May 12 18:13:34 <Wizzup> albeit crappy quality
May 12 18:15:29 <DocScrutinizer05> useful: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/System_Software  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture
May 12 18:16:35 <Enrico_Menotti> Ok, thank you for the *very* useful info. Nice talk. Now I have to go - I will ask some more in the next few days, although I will be a bit busy with Special Relativity :) .
May 12 18:16:41 <DocScrutinizer05> http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Multimedia_Domain
May 12 18:17:59 <Enrico_Menotti> Great diagrams, btw. I had already seen something, but did not read carefully, I admit.
May 12 18:26:44 <DocScrutinizer05> Special Relativity is simpler than maemo ;-P
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