**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Nov 15 03:00:01 2017
Nov 15 08:15:40 <CatButts> http://my-maemo.com/software/applications.php?name=N900_Fly&faq=47&fldAuto=1043
Nov 15 08:15:41 <CatButts> hehe
Nov 15 08:16:27 * CatButts straps his N900 to a large firework and crosses fingers
Nov 15 08:17:22 <Maxdamantus> That surely wouldn't work.
Nov 15 08:17:34 <Maxdamantus> Unless the application is insanely stupid.
Nov 15 08:17:59 <Maxdamantus> It should at least expect the accelerometer to report approximately 0 acceleration throughout the flight.
Nov 15 08:18:27 <CatButts> I guess there is one way to find out
Nov 15 08:18:39 <Maxdamantus> I imagine it would also expect a sharp increase in acceleration before it suddenly stops.
Nov 15 08:19:18 <inz> i.e. build a cannon and shoot your N900 instead
Nov 15 08:19:20 <Maxdamantus> and probably after too.
Nov 15 08:19:33 <inz> Or a catapult / trebuchet
Nov 15 08:21:01 <bencoh> 10:17 < Maxdamantus> It should at least expect the accelerometer to report approximately 0 acceleration throughout the flight.
Nov 15 08:21:04 <bencoh> wrong :)
Nov 15 08:21:34 <Maxdamantus> Because the accelerometer isn't at the device's centre of mass? Maybe.
Nov 15 08:21:44 <bencoh> no, that's unrelated
Nov 15 08:22:02 <Maxdamantus> So where would the acceleration come from?
Nov 15 08:22:04 <Maxdamantus> Air resistance?
Nov 15 08:22:46 <bencoh> let's assume there is no air resistance, you'd still have a non-zero acceleration
Nov 15 08:23:04 <Maxdamantus> From what?
Nov 15 08:23:20 <bencoh> m.a = m.g in our case
Nov 15 08:24:05 <Maxdamantus> The "acceleration" from gravity isn't something you feel.
Nov 15 08:24:41 <KotCzarny> how do you FEEL any acceleration then?
Nov 15 08:25:19 <Maxdamantus> unless you're talking about tidal forces, the internally noticable effects of gravity are from something like the Earth constantly pushing you off the geodesic you would be following if you were in unobstructed freefall.
Nov 15 08:25:24 <bencoh> Maxdamantus: you "feel" it, it just that they usually filter it
Nov 15 08:25:35 <KotCzarny> +1
Nov 15 08:25:53 <Maxdamantus> That's why if you leave the N900 on a table or something, it will report approximately 9.81 m/s/s of acceleration.
Nov 15 08:26:11 <Maxdamantus> If it's falling it should report approximately 0 m/s/s of acceleration.
Nov 15 08:26:13 <KotCzarny> um
Nov 15 08:26:20 <KotCzarny> it should report 0 accel on a table
Nov 15 08:26:25 <Maxdamantus> Wrong.
Nov 15 08:26:28 <Maxdamantus> TIAS
Nov 15 08:26:30 <inz> that would be useless
Nov 15 08:26:36 <KotCzarny> true. forces cancel out == 0 accel
Nov 15 08:26:39 <KotCzarny> physics
Nov 15 08:26:51 <KotCzarny> accel != 0 => speed >0
Nov 15 08:26:57 <bencoh> KotCzarny: you're talking about the whole device acceleration
Nov 15 08:27:10 <bencoh> he's referring to what your accelerometer reports
Nov 15 08:27:24 <KotCzarny> unless you talk about sensors that dont report real accel
Nov 15 08:27:54 <KotCzarny> that's why it doesnt report real accel
Nov 15 08:28:07 <KotCzarny> just some arbitrary force direction
Nov 15 08:28:14 <Maxdamantus> It reports real acceleration.
Nov 15 08:28:22 <Maxdamantus> The acceleration you're thinking of is fake acceleration.
Nov 15 08:28:29 <KotCzarny> false according to 'acceleration' definition
Nov 15 08:28:51 <KotCzarny> F=m*a -> a=F/m
Nov 15 08:29:06 <KotCzarny> and according to first or second newton's law
Nov 15 08:29:14 <KotCzarny> on a table forces cancel out
Nov 15 08:29:17 <KotCzarny> which means a=0
Nov 15 08:29:41 <KotCzarny> which means on a table device is NOT moving
Nov 15 08:29:42 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, Newton's laws are about fake acceleration.
Nov 15 08:29:48 <KotCzarny> lol
Nov 15 08:30:01 <KotCzarny> seriously.
Nov 15 08:30:04 <Maxdamantus> The real acceleration happens when the structure of the Earth pushes you upwards.
Nov 15 08:30:26 <KotCzarny> you should really either rething or redefine words you use
Nov 15 08:30:27 <bencoh> wait, what?
Nov 15 08:30:30 <KotCzarny> *rethink
Nov 15 08:32:31 <Maxdamantus> http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/images/principle_of_equivalence.gif
Nov 15 08:33:15 <Maxdamantus> The acceleration comes from the bottom of the rocket.
Nov 15 08:33:24 <Maxdamantus> or equivalently, the bottom of the box sitting on the Earth.
Nov 15 08:33:42 <KotCzarny> yes, and it comes from the force that cancels out g
Nov 15 08:33:46 <KotCzarny> well
Nov 15 08:33:57 <KotCzarny> not cancel, but change the resulting force vector
Nov 15 08:34:16 <Maxdamantus> The one that pushes you off your geodesic, yes.
Nov 15 08:34:18 <KotCzarny> which means F!=0 -> a>0 -> moving relative to the earth
Nov 15 08:34:38 <Maxdamantus> ie, the force that prevents the Earth from collapsing into a black hole.
Nov 15 08:34:59 <Maxdamantus> ie, the one that pushes things away from the Earth
Nov 15 08:35:04 <Maxdamantus> ie, the strong force
Nov 15 08:35:12 <bencoh> errr
Nov 15 08:35:15 <KotCzarny> see? more forces
Nov 15 08:35:28 <Maxdamantus> er, weak force*
Nov 15 08:35:30 <KotCzarny> newtons equations were about macroscoping observation of them
Nov 15 08:35:31 <bencoh> you're mixing everything together here, if I may way
Nov 15 08:35:44 <bencoh> say*
Nov 15 08:35:54 <KotCzarny> on microscopic scale things might look different because of quantum effects
Nov 15 08:36:05 <KotCzarny> but otherwise newton laws is what we observe
Nov 15 08:36:17 <KotCzarny> which means they rule our proximity
Nov 15 08:36:55 <Maxdamantus> Newton's laws don't explain why we feel acceleration when we're standing on the ground but don't while we're falling.
Nov 15 08:37:12 <KotCzarny> yes, but they explain how to make things move
Nov 15 08:37:27 <KotCzarny> ie. change force vector
Nov 15 08:37:43 <KotCzarny> you dont feel acceleration.
Nov 15 08:38:06 <Maxdamantus> Of course you feel acceleration.
Nov 15 08:38:07 <KotCzarny> unless you are saying that we feel it in the same way n900's sensor do
Nov 15 08:38:13 <KotCzarny> ie. things pressing together
Nov 15 08:38:15 <Maxdamantus> If you're in a car and you slam the pedal .. you feel that acceleration.
Nov 15 08:38:31 <KotCzarny> no, you feel your seat pressing your back
Nov 15 08:38:31 <Maxdamantus> If you're falling and you hit the ground .. you feel that acceleration
Nov 15 08:38:35 <KotCzarny> no
Nov 15 08:38:40 <Maxdamantus> if you're even just standing on the ground, you feel that acceleration.
Nov 15 08:38:44 <KotCzarny> you feel the moment of force change
Nov 15 08:38:52 <KotCzarny> nope
Nov 15 08:38:56 <KotCzarny> you feel air hitting you
Nov 15 08:39:07 <KotCzarny> if you were free falling+accel in space, you wont feel it
Nov 15 08:39:11 <Maxdamantus> Well, no, you feel the ground pushing your feet.
Nov 15 08:39:47 <inz> Wow, that escalated quickly.
Nov 15 08:40:03 <Maxdamantus> otherwise you wouldn't feel any different if you were, eg, in the ISS, which has approximately the same air pressure as on Earth.
Nov 15 08:40:15 <KotCzarny> anywa, n900 sensor reports the ball on a spring
Nov 15 08:41:08 <Maxdamantus> Right, and if you are able to watch the screen while dropping the N900, the ball should move towards the centre.
Nov 15 08:41:20 <KotCzarny> and in THIS case, force of the spring is influenced by g
Nov 15 08:41:36 <KotCzarny> and other forces
Nov 15 08:42:20 <KotCzarny> put that n900 in space and compare the results
Nov 15 08:42:32 <Maxdamantus> I can see that fairly clearly when I throw it gently, so I can still see the screen.
Nov 15 08:42:41 <Maxdamantus> the ball goes to the centre until I catch it again.
Nov 15 08:42:57 <KotCzarny> or take a ball, connect 3 springs and see how it behaves in your hands
Nov 15 08:43:07 <KotCzarny> you will see then WHAT it reports
Nov 15 08:44:39 <Maxdamantus> If the N900 isn't moving in reference to the ground, it's going to report the same acceleration as if it were on the ground.
Nov 15 08:44:46 <Maxdamantus> if you were implying something else, dunno.
Nov 15 08:44:57 <KotCzarny> no, it reports which direction the ball is sprung
Nov 15 08:45:06 <KotCzarny> and it reports it modified by some calibration number
Nov 15 08:45:10 <bencoh> KotCzarny: he's right about what the accelerometer will report, although I still don't understand why he said the app wouldn't work
Nov 15 08:45:36 <Maxdamantus> I said it wouldn't work tying it to a firework.
Nov 15 08:45:51 <KotCzarny> but please dont rename acceleration know from school for something your body feels
Nov 15 08:46:22 <bencoh> Maxdamantus: oooh, mybad
Nov 15 08:46:28 <KotCzarny> ball feels force
Nov 15 08:46:37 <KotCzarny> changes in force -> acceleration
Nov 15 08:46:56 <KotCzarny> erm. wrong
Nov 15 08:47:04 <KotCzarny> force > 0 -> acceleration
Nov 15 08:48:29 <Maxdamantus> Right, and if you're sitting on the surface of the Earth, you'll be experiencing approximately 1 g.
Nov 15 08:49:02 <KotCzarny> but you arent moving because you also experience opposite force of the ground
Nov 15 08:49:08 <Maxdamantus> If you get put in a G-force simulator, they can make you experience more than that.
Nov 15 08:49:41 <Maxdamantus> and if you're inside the ISS while it's in orbit, you'll be experiencing approximately 0 g.
Nov 15 08:50:37 <KotCzarny> ~0g of the EARTH, but you will still experience force of the ship
Nov 15 08:50:48 <KotCzarny> as long it would be ACCELERATING
Nov 15 08:50:59 <Maxdamantus> It's not accelerating. It's in freefall.
Nov 15 08:51:03 <KotCzarny> engines
Nov 15 08:51:08 <Maxdamantus> It's falling around the Earth.
Nov 15 08:51:29 <Maxdamantus> okay, they occasionally use rockets to recalibrate their orbit.
Nov 15 08:51:30 <KotCzarny> i'm curious tho what would software report
Nov 15 08:51:46 <Maxdamantus> but the vast majority of the time there is practically no acceleration to the spacecraft.
Nov 15 08:52:01 <KotCzarny> because it's optimized for ground operations
Nov 15 08:52:41 <Maxdamantus> I suspect they also constantly use gyroscopes to calibrate their rotation.
Nov 15 08:53:02 <Maxdamantus> a phone's accelerator would report 0 g.
Nov 15 08:53:13 <Maxdamantus> accelerometer*
Nov 15 08:53:29 <KotCzarny> it reports force then, not accel
Nov 15 08:53:44 <KotCzarny> just that software recalculates it into potential accel
Nov 15 08:53:47 <Maxdamantus> "g" is acceleration, not force.
Nov 15 08:53:54 <Maxdamantus> force is an acceleration multiplied by a mass.
Nov 15 08:53:59 <KotCzarny> yes, but i'm saying what spring reports
Nov 15 08:54:30 <Maxdamantus> eg, if you are 50 kg and you're sitting on the surface of the Earth, the Earth is excerting (50 kg)*(1 g) of force on you.
Nov 15 08:55:53 <Maxdamantus> (that is, 50 kg of mass)
Nov 15 09:09:49 <sixwheeledbeast> I doubt N900Fly is designed to be accurate, just someone learning how to use the accelometer within some code.
Nov 15 09:39:18 <brolin_empey> “<atk> sixwheeledbeast: every time someone asks if I have an android or apple phone I have to explain...”
Nov 15 09:39:18 <brolin_empey> Kind of like persons incorrectly assuming that your automotive vehicle uses gasoline as opposed to diesel fuel or incorrectly assuming that your car is a 3-box design by referring to the trunk?
Nov 15 09:40:25 <atk> I am not a car person unfortunately so I don't know what a 3 box design is.
Nov 15 09:40:33 <atk> But the answer is: probably.
Nov 15 09:42:18 <brolin_empey> Or assuming that a vehicle with an automatic transmission has a torque converter automatic transmission as opposed to a continuously variable transmission or a dual clutch transmission.
Nov 15 09:43:16 <brolin_empey> Or assuming that a bicycle uses a chain drive as opposed to a shaft drive.
Nov 15 09:44:33 <atk> I'll use an analogy I can understand:
Nov 15 09:45:07 <atk> It's like you telling someone you're a programmer and them asking if you are a C++ programmer or a Java programmer as if those were the only two languages anyone wrote.
Nov 15 09:47:50 <brolin_empey> atk: A 3-box design is a typical sedan design with 3 boxes: engine compartment, passenger compartment AKA cabin, luggage compartment AKA trunk.
Nov 15 09:50:32 <brolin_empey> atk: Yes, I understood you even before I replied.
Nov 15 09:52:12 <brolin_empey> atk: Technically, the N900 can run the Android OS (NITdroid).
Nov 15 09:53:27 <brolin_empey> Some persons also incorrectly assume that a device with an LED display has an LCD.
Nov 15 09:56:14 <brolin_empey> Some persons incorrectly assume that IEEE 802.11 is only 2.4 GHz when it is now 5 GHz too.
Nov 15 09:56:25 <atk> I was wondering though... is there some way of getting a more recent openssl on maemo?
Nov 15 09:56:37 <atk> 802.11 has like 15 different varieties
Nov 15 09:57:31 <atk> well, I wasn't far off, 17 according to wikipedia
Nov 15 09:58:14 <brolin_empey> atk: I mean a,b,g,n,ac.
Nov 15 09:58:33 <atk> Covering 2.4, 5, 3.7, 0.054-0.79, 0.9, 60, 45 and 60 GHz
Nov 15 09:58:39 <atk> er, I said 60 twice
Nov 15 09:58:53 <atk> 60GHz seems pretty high all of a sudden
Nov 15 09:59:59 <atk> even a has a 3.7GHz option and that apparently has a range of up to 5000m outdoors
Nov 15 10:00:17 <atk> that explains what those unifi wifi transmitter things must use
Nov 15 10:01:41 <atk> s/unifi/airmax/
Nov 15 10:01:41 <infobot> atk meant: that explains what those airmax wifi transmitter things must use
Nov 15 10:02:11 <atk> or not... apparently they use 5GHz
Nov 15 10:02:23 <atk> and also airfiber
Nov 15 10:02:55 <atk> I don't think those things are wifi anymore, they seem to be another technology
Nov 15 10:06:58 <sixwheeledbeast> I believe the openssl currently in maemo has backports for bugfixes. There's some ABI compatibility issue? Again there was a thread about it on TMO somewhere, I found links to all the patches from 0.9.8o to 0.9.8z
Nov 15 11:11:43 <atk> I have 0.9.8zf installed
Nov 15 11:15:01 <atk> ah... ABI issues... the bane of everyone's existence
Nov 15 11:31:25 <sixwheeledbeast> zf? fmg posted ze version here http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93296
Nov 15 12:08:29 <atk> is ze newer than zf?
Nov 15 12:10:48 <bencoh> err ... doubt it
Nov 15 12:12:25 <atk> It would be nice if TLS 1.1 and up were supported
Nov 15 12:12:30 <sixwheeledbeast> no, I wouldn't even think that was possible.
Nov 15 12:12:39 <atk> I wonder what manner of backporting would be required for that.
Nov 15 12:14:13 <atk> it's annoying that they broke ABI
Nov 15 12:14:57 <atk> Or actually... It sounds more like they broke API because I can't see why ABI would be broken unless the ABI was actually completely changed by a gcc update
Nov 15 12:16:19 <atk> ah yes, they apparently broke ABI by changing their "API" to use some compat macros
Nov 15 12:16:21 <atk> that's pretty shitty
Nov 15 12:17:21 <atk> At this point it seems like it might be easier to go through the list of packages which are proprietary and rely on the ABI and either patch them, RE them or ditch them
Nov 15 12:17:31 <atk> I mean, the list didn't seem that long ... let's have a look at what's on it
Nov 15 12:18:25 <atk> ah, libflashplayer.so - perfect, something I disabled as soon as I got the phone working
Nov 15 12:20:01 <atk> I think patching the binaries would probably actually be the simplest... I mean if it's just renamed symbols.. I might look into what that entails at some point
Nov 15 12:21:23 <atk> ~porting
Nov 15 12:21:24 <infobot> somebody said porting was http://www.handhelds.org/z/wiki/Porting%20Software%20to%20ARM%20Linux
Nov 15 12:22:00 <bencoh> patching binaries isn't as easy as it might seem :)
Nov 15 12:22:12 <bencoh> not always at least
Nov 15 12:22:31 <bencoh> so you usually need to RE them (then you can just build from source)
Nov 15 12:22:37 <atk> I was looking for http://wiki.maemo.org/Porting/Closed_Packages
Nov 15 12:22:52 <bencoh> which is part of the work some people here are already undertaking
Nov 15 12:23:04 <bencoh> or rather, undertook months/years ago
Nov 15 12:30:15 <sixwheeledbeast> ~closed
Nov 15 12:30:16 <infobot> closed is probably http://wiki.maemo.org/Why_the_closed_packages or https://wiki.maemo.org/Fremantle_closed_packages, or http://elinux.org/N900
Nov 15 12:30:35 <sixwheeledbeast> ah that's a different page
Nov 15 12:34:31 <atk> bencoh: If it's just renaming the function it might not be as hard as you think - I just did a test (And I know that different length names might cause a problem so that's still a problem to solve) where I wrote a simple library with two functions
Nov 15 12:34:55 <atk> the function names were the same length and I could control which one a binary called by just editing the file in vim and renaming the function in the symbol table
Nov 15 12:35:35 <atk> I just need to see what catastrophe I might cause with ELF if I want to change the length
Nov 15 12:37:04 <bencoh> atk: here it's not really just "changing a function name" :)
Nov 15 12:37:15 <atk> Ah, but that's the cause of the ABI breakage apparently
Nov 15 12:37:27 <atk> So I think it really might be just that in some cases
Nov 15 12:37:55 <atk> the other option would be to take a newer version of openssl and write small wrapper functions for those calls
Nov 15 12:38:15 <atk> actually, it might be possible with a combination of patching the binaries to use names which are previously unused and embedding wrappers in openssl shared object
Nov 15 12:38:27 <atk> that would even solve instances where a function's API changed
Nov 15 12:41:07 <atk> I'll have to try it, I'll get pmos running on an SD card and then take these old binaries and see what errors I get when running them on new libraries
Nov 15 12:41:43 <atk> and then see what I can fudge into openssl so that along with a simple binary patch to write mangled names to the openssl calls which have issues the things call the wrappers instead of what they expect to call
Nov 15 12:43:45 <atk> the only scary part of this is actually touching openssl source
Nov 15 12:44:03 <atk> I remember trying to write something to do with x509 CSRs with openssl and it was a complete nightmare
Nov 15 16:10:44 <timeless> DocScrutinizer05: ping
Nov 15 16:12:11 <timeless> do you happen to know what the columns in the table at the bottom of this output mean / what the table is? is it a process list (in which case, it looks like ssh performed a fork-bomb) https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/cyLNHXbq/
Nov 15 16:29:25 <timeless> https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/linux/DecodingPageAllocFailures doesn't cover it :-(
Nov 15 17:03:16 <timeless> grrr
Nov 15 17:03:35 <timeless> it feels like a fork bomb
Nov 15 17:07:25 <timeless> odd
Nov 15 17:07:32 <timeless> according to https://askubuntu.com/questions/709336/how-to-find-out-why-process-was-killed-on-server
Nov 15 17:07:36 <timeless> there shuld have been a line:
Nov 15 17:07:54 <timeless> ... [   ...] [ pid ]   uid  tgid total_vm      rss nr_ptes nr_pmds swapents oom_score_adj name
Nov 15 17:08:25 <timeless> so i definitely have a forkbomb
Nov 15 17:26:23 <Vajb> do you edit code on n900? If yes, what is the editor of choice there? I just installed pygtkeditor but it seems to use a lot processor time.
Nov 15 17:26:49 <Vajb> code meaning javascript at the moment...
Nov 15 17:29:23 * timeless used `vi`
Nov 15 17:34:38 <bencoh> vim :)
Nov 15 17:34:52 <Vajb> im too n00b for vi. I embrace my highlights ;)
Nov 15 17:34:55 <bencoh> with a properly remapped keyboard, and a real xterm
Nov 15 17:35:00 <bencoh> not osso-xterm
Nov 15 17:35:12 <Vajb> sam aplies to ur suggestion bencoh ;)
Nov 15 17:35:21 <Vajb> same*
Nov 15 17:35:26 <bencoh> aww
Nov 15 17:35:30 <bencoh> nano ? :p
Nov 15 17:35:51 <sixwheeledbeast> vi
Nov 15 17:35:58 <bencoh> (not really handy to write code, but ...)
Nov 15 17:38:20 <Vajb> i have also leafpad. It is good for all but code
Nov 15 17:38:52 <Vajb> ah and nano i use at the desktop
Nov 15 17:39:30 <Vajb> but i kinda got used to highlighted code while using notepad++ so...
Nov 15 17:43:49 * CatButts slaps Internet Archive
Nov 15 17:44:45 <CatButts> hey sunshavi, I has a request
Nov 15 18:03:46 <sixwheeledbeast> be nice if pluma/gedit could be ported
Nov 15 18:05:37 <CatButts> hey sixwheeledbeast, what do you call a three-wheeled beast?
Nov 15 18:06:06 <sixwheeledbeast> undrivable
Nov 15 18:06:09 <CatButts> a Robin Reliant!
Nov 15 18:08:19 <sixwheeledbeast> pluma requires GTK+-3.14.x and GtkSourceView 3.0.x.
Nov 15 18:31:53 <CatButts> ~hildonization
Nov 15 18:32:05 <CatButts> ~hildonisation
Nov 15 18:36:24 <sixwheeledbeast> ~listkeys hildon
Nov 15 18:36:25 <infobot> Factoid search of 'hildon' by key (4): hildon-extras ;; libhildonfm2 ;; knows when hildon app manager #DEL# ;; hildon.
Nov 15 18:50:05 <CatButts> hmmmm, it hit me
Nov 15 18:50:28 <CatButts> do n900 phones come with multiple keyboard layouts?
Nov 15 18:50:44 <CatButts> or is there single layout for this phone
Nov 15 18:50:46 <CatButts> ?
Nov 15 18:51:27 <CatButts> I ask because I see letters with accents on my keypad
Nov 15 18:51:42 <CatButts> and am playing with ideas in my head
Nov 15 18:53:07 <CatButts> and multiple layouts does not go well with these ideas
Nov 15 18:54:07 <sicelo> you can redefine your layout as you want, with a few quirks
Nov 15 18:54:41 <sunshavi> CatButts: As it is pluma/gedit can not be ported gtk version is 2.14.7
Nov 15 18:54:57 <atk> CatButts: there are models of it with different keyboard plastic things
Nov 15 18:55:39 <CatButts> not about redefining layout, rather, about relying on a layout from inside applications
Nov 15 18:56:01 <CatButts> ohai sun
Nov 15 18:56:29 <sunshavi> CatButts: BTW i use emacs (it is on the repos)
Nov 15 18:57:30 <CatButts> eh, I am not exactly accustomed to CLI text editors, in general
Nov 15 18:57:39 <CatButts> maybe edit.com and nano :P
Nov 15 18:57:48 <sunshavi> it is not cli it is gtk based
Nov 15 18:58:04 <CatButts> I wanted ask you, do you happen to have PalmOS emu installer for N900 by any chance?
Nov 15 18:58:27 <CatButts> Internet Archive is not working
Nov 15 18:58:37 <atk> is there a graphical pass wrapper for maemo?
Nov 15 18:58:48 <CatButts> pass wrapper?
Nov 15 18:58:54 <sunshavi> yes i have it (on some of my hdds)
Nov 15 18:58:57 <atk> yes, for pass the password store program
Nov 15 19:00:02 <sicelo> keepassx
Nov 15 19:00:19 <sicelo> ah .. sorry. didn't undersand
Nov 15 19:00:33 <atk> that doesn't appear to wrap pass
Nov 15 19:00:47 <atk> pass uses a directory tree of gpg encrypted files to store password
Nov 15 19:00:49 <atk> s
Nov 15 19:11:11 <sunshavi> CatButts: http://dl.mobilestan.net/index.php/files/download/6498419/garnet-vm-1.0.6b-itos2009-armel.deb
Nov 15 19:11:39 <atk> Here's a good question - how do you select things in microb?
Nov 15 19:12:12 <sicelo> tap the magic arrow on the right :-)
Nov 15 19:13:12 <CatButts> gracias
Nov 15 19:13:13 <atk> Oh cool. microb has swiping things
Nov 15 19:13:23 <atk> you swipe from the left it seems
Nov 15 19:13:42 <CatButts> hmmm
Nov 15 19:13:44 <sicelo> yes it has many gestures. check wiki for detailed list
Nov 15 19:13:54 <CatButts> doesn't seem to download, sunshavi 
Nov 15 19:14:07 <CatButts> oh well, at least I know a filename now!
Nov 15 19:15:19 <CatButts> found it
Nov 15 19:15:34 <sunshavi> great
Nov 15 19:15:54 <sunshavi> CatButts: i think I also have the one for the n800
Nov 15 19:56:16 <CatButts> hmmmmm
Nov 15 19:56:59 <CatButts> how the hug did I load external files into Garnet VM, I forgets
Nov 15 19:57:07 <CatButts> I had styetap before
Nov 15 19:57:37 <CatButts> I am doing the SunVox stress-test
Nov 15 20:13:34 <sunshavi> CatButts: SunVox 4 palmOS?
Nov 15 20:13:56 <CatButts> yes
Nov 15 20:14:07 <CatButts> I know there is a Maemo sunvox too
Nov 15 20:14:16 <CatButts> but I want to test the emu
Nov 15 20:14:25 <CatButts> by loading demanding songs
Nov 15 20:15:03 <sunshavi> R You trying to load pdb's to garnet-emu?
Nov 15 20:16:11 <CatButts> I am trying to load sunvox songfiles
Nov 15 20:16:26 <CatButts> I need to encase them in pdbs, right?
Nov 15 20:16:53 <sunshavi> not sure. never used sunvox on palm
Nov 15 20:17:06 <CatButts> better question
Nov 15 20:17:16 <sunshavi> At least You would need to know the format
Nov 15 20:17:18 <CatButts> how do I bring arbitrary files into garnet vm
Nov 15 20:18:17 <sunshavi> the only way garnet read external files (no prc, no pdb) was on the sd card. look for emulating sdcar with a directory on the host
Nov 15 20:22:42 <CatButts> hmmm
Nov 15 20:22:53 <CatButts> looks like styletap had it better
Nov 15 20:34:03 <CatButts> bueno, sunshavi 
Nov 15 20:34:04 <CatButts> https://www.plecoforums.com/threads/pleco-2-0-4-running-on-nokia-n900-test.2423/
Nov 15 20:34:21 <CatButts> 3rd post
Nov 15 20:36:48 <pkill9> is there a list of updated software for maemo?
Nov 15 20:39:20 <pkill9> CatButts: what's pleco?
Nov 15 20:39:43 <pkill9> oh chinese language thing
Nov 15 20:43:22 <CatButts> it's not pico that interests there
Nov 15 20:43:40 <CatButts> it's the method to access SD card from 3rd post
Nov 15 20:44:13 <pkill9> ah
Nov 15 20:44:41 <pkill9> question: is running linux 2.6.whatever that maemo uses bad?
Nov 15 20:44:57 <pkill9> is it like, really unstable and insecure and shizz?
Nov 15 21:01:53 <Maxdamantus> I don't think 2.6 has much to do with insecurity on N900.
Nov 15 21:02:30 <Maxdamantus> Maemo is generally very insecure in terms of "app" sandboxing, compared to something like iOS and presumably Android.
Nov 15 21:05:06 <CatButts> you know what else is insecure regarding sandboxing?
Nov 15 21:05:09 <CatButts> PalmOS!
Nov 15 21:05:11 <CatButts> :P
Nov 15 21:05:18 <pkill9> :)
Nov 15 21:05:31 <Maxdamantus> which means you should pretty much not run programs you don't trust on the device, but  simply upgrading the kernel wouldn't help that.
Nov 15 21:05:57 <Maxdamantus> (that last message was meant to appear shortly after the previous one, but connection went down)
Nov 15 21:07:59 * Maxdamantus doesn't know much about PalmOS, but imagines it's probably a system that's meant to run on CPUs without MMUs, so unless applications are translated from some safe "VM" code, they pretty much have "root" access
Nov 15 21:12:19 <CatButts> http://www.my-maemo.com/software/applications.php?fldAuto=1048&faq=35 hehe
Nov 15 21:12:36 <CatButts> https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36698&page=23
Nov 15 21:12:58 <CatButts> whoops, I meant https://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=36698
Nov 15 21:54:11 <atk> You shouldn't really be running programs you don't trust on any device.
Nov 15 21:54:21 <atk> For example, I wouldn't trust android so I wouldn't run it on any device.
Nov 15 21:56:13 <DocScrutinizer05> in memoriam Gary Birkett
Nov 15 22:03:01 <Maxdamantus> atk: but you trust all the binary blobs you run on N900 that were provided by Nokia?
Nov 15 22:03:25 <atk> of course not, but they're way more manageable and can be slowly removed
Nov 15 22:03:37 <atk> and are way easier to audit
Nov 15 22:34:43 <sunshavi> CatButts: nice and great. It's going to be useful when i need to load files
Nov 15 22:45:07 <Maxdamantus> anyway, as for "shouldn't really be running programs you don't trust on any device", that would mean you basically can't look at any website.
Nov 15 22:46:18 <Maxdamantus> Because the current web is built around the idea that you don't have to trust the content of random things your web browser happens to load.
Nov 15 22:48:01 <Maxdamantus> Since even though they involve running arbitrary computations on your computer, there shouldn't generally be a way for a website to access files from your filesystem or read/write memory in other processes.
Nov 15 22:48:54 <Maxdamantus> in iOS (and presumably Android), that pattern extends to all "apps" you run on the device, even though they involve running native ARM code.
Nov 15 22:50:01 <Maxdamantus> in Maemo, everything is just running as either "user" or "root" and they can use standard features in Linux to access files/processes owned by that user.
Nov 15 23:54:21 <Oksanaa> Whatever sandboxing Android and such try to use, I am guessing that their drivers aren't Minix-style safe.
Nov 16 00:10:43 <Maxdamantus> Are you referring to the systems Intel are running in their chipsets?
Nov 16 00:11:21 <Maxdamantus> If so, no, nothing is safe from something the CPU or chipset might decide to do.
Nov 16 00:13:13 <Maxdamantus> as for what sandboxing would be sufficient, you can already do sufficient sandboxing, even on Linux 2.6
Nov 16 00:13:50 <Maxdamantus> though at that point you'd need to worry about possible privilege escalation exploits that have been developed since then.
Nov 16 00:23:35 <Oksanaa> Hmm... I didn't know about Minix-inside-x86 when I was saying that.
Nov 16 00:24:02 <Oksanaa> I just referred to microkernel operating system being inherently safer from malicious drivers.
Nov 16 00:25:24 <Maxdamantus> Ah, okay.
Nov 16 00:26:50 <Maxdamantus> So hopefully running apps will generally not involve loading kernel drivers provided by the app.
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