**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Nov 25 03:00:01 2017
Nov 25 10:14:15 <ShadowJK> As an ignorant observer, to me it seems android goes for suspending all apps when screen is off. Then they added APIs to let things come to life even with screen off, in order to let instant messaging and such work. But, then all devs learned how to use those APIs, and battery drain became too big, so they made new API and put apps using the old one to forced sleep
Nov 25 10:14:49 <ShadowJK> And this repeats every now and then with new OS versions, breaking old things in the process while promising improved battery life :D
Nov 25 10:43:29 <KotCzarny> hehe
Nov 25 16:30:32 <Vajb> anyone familiar with gmediaserver? I tried to set ps3 mediaserver, but ps3 fails to play the files. Whines about "unknown file type".
Nov 25 16:31:58 <KotCzarny> maybe you need renderer, not only file server
Nov 25 16:33:27 <Vajb> hmm. If it needs somethign more, should it be dependency?
Nov 25 16:33:59 <KotCzarny> no, it is just your usual 'standards' mess
Nov 25 16:34:26 <Vajb> ah i c
Nov 25 16:36:19 <KotCzarny> you might just use minidlna server
Nov 25 16:36:37 <KotCzarny> though it could b0rk the same
Nov 25 16:37:04 <KotCzarny> more sophisticated software will feature on-the-fly de-encoder
Nov 25 16:37:55 <Vajb> yes, i went to ask from devuan also and they suggested the same
Nov 25 16:38:14 <Vajb> claimed to never have suchc problem with minidlna
Nov 25 20:29:59 <CatButts> JAVAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Nov 25 23:40:22 <CatButts> oh hey, I gots a silly idea
Nov 25 23:40:47 <CatButts> regarding key setup in maemo
Nov 25 23:40:52 <CatButts> for applications
Nov 25 23:41:43 <CatButts> have an application that has you press all keys on your keypad, one by one, and make a profile
Nov 25 23:42:21 <CatButts> have application be invokable from other applications for two things
Nov 25 23:42:36 <CatButts> 1. this initial sensing of the keys
Nov 25 23:43:05 <CatButts> 2. helping application set up its own keys
Nov 25 23:43:34 <CatButts> the key setup would be visually assisted
Nov 25 23:43:49 <CatButts> with a mock keypad on the screen
Nov 25 23:44:25 <CatButts> the correct placement of the keys is aided by the initial sensing
Nov 26 00:12:05 <Maxdamantus> Seems like an unnecessary amount of effort for an interface people would rarely use.
Nov 26 00:12:36 <Maxdamantus> You should already be able to bind things to keys using something like `xbindkeys`, which is probably easy enough for most N900/maemo users.
Nov 26 00:16:15 <CatButts> less user, more programmer making his application
Nov 26 00:17:27 <CatButts> a way to conveniently deal with discrepancies in key layout
Nov 26 00:17:31 <CatButts> s
Nov 26 00:17:44 <CatButts> by having user press ALL the keys
Nov 26 00:17:45 <CatButts> :P
Nov 26 00:17:55 <CatButts> in order
Nov 26 00:24:50 <Maxdamantus> You mean the user is forced to press all keys before being able to use the device?
Nov 26 00:31:12 <CatButts> being forced to press all the keys before using application
Nov 26 00:31:13 <CatButts> once
Nov 26 00:31:54 <CatButts> or rather, one application, with the rest benefiting from stored config
Nov 26 00:32:06 <Maxdamantus> I don't really understand what the purpose is.
Nov 26 00:32:24 <Maxdamantus> Is it to ensure that users are using a keyboard layout they specifically want?
Nov 26 00:32:30 <CatButts> yes
Nov 26 00:32:44 <CatButts> rather
Nov 26 00:32:49 <Maxdamantus> I imagine most people would probably just use whatever is provided. The decision for where most keys go is pretty much completely arbitrary.
Nov 26 00:33:22 <Maxdamantus> The fact that it's fairly arbitrary is basically solved by just having a standard layout that everyone just uses.
Nov 26 00:33:32 <CatButts> it's to give application view of where all keys are
Nov 26 00:34:01 <Maxdamantus> You can change that if you really want (I did, since I'm used to Dvorak, not QWERTY, and I also mapped all remaining printable ASCII characters to keys)
Nov 26 00:34:18 <Maxdamantus> Why would an application care where the keys are?
Nov 26 00:34:46 <Maxdamantus> If it cares about where keys are, it must be specific to N900, in which case it should be using key codes instead of key symbols.
Nov 26 00:35:32 <Maxdamantus> It shouldn't need to care what the mapping is between codes and symbols.
Nov 26 00:35:58 <Maxdamantus> unless it is an application designed for something like the configuration between the two.
Nov 26 00:37:19 <CatButts> well, the first stage maps out where everything is
Nov 26 00:38:05 <CatButts> the second stage is setting default keys according to first stage and optionally letting user rebin
Nov 26 00:38:06 <CatButts> d
Nov 26 00:40:17 <Maxdamantus> Are you talking about so that maemo is device-agnostic?
Nov 26 00:41:52 <CatButts> nope
Nov 26 00:41:59 <CatButts> wait
Nov 26 00:42:15 <CatButts> device agnostic means OS running on other devices as well?
Nov 26 00:42:32 <Maxdamantus> Yes, on devices other than N900
Nov 26 00:42:36 <CatButts> in that case, N900 specific
Nov 26 00:43:00 <CatButts> it's not at OS level
Nov 26 00:43:16 <CatButts> it's a helper application for other apllications to use
Nov 26 00:44:43 <CatButts> with two things to do
Nov 26 00:45:23 <CatButts> 1. do that silly 'press all keys in order' thing if it hasn't been done before(re-requestable if shit don't line up)
Nov 26 00:46:00 <CatButts> 2. provide helping interface for key setup and way to return mapped keys to requesting app
Nov 26 00:46:07 <CatButts> with visual aid
Nov 26 00:46:57 <Maxdamantus> What's the point in `1`? You're basically asking the user to produce input that is completely predictable (assuming all users are using an N900)
Nov 26 00:47:16 <Maxdamantus> it sounds like calibration where there is nothing to actually calibrate.
Nov 26 00:48:28 <CatButts> aren't returned keycodes different depending on whatever mapping you have?
Nov 26 00:48:36 <CatButts> yes, it's a calibration step
Nov 26 00:48:48 <Maxdamantus> If a screen calibration asks you to press in a particular position, it's because the screen calibration tool isn't sure extactly what numbers will be produced if the user presses where he/she thinks that place is.
Nov 26 00:49:18 <Maxdamantus> but in this case, the program should know exactly what input will be produced when someone presses a particular key.
Nov 26 00:50:11 <Maxdamantus> If I press the top left key on my device, it will produce the same key code as if you pressed the top left key on your device.
Nov 26 00:50:41 <Maxdamantus> and a program could easily be hardcoded with that information.
Nov 26 00:50:45 <CatButts> what about anything inbetween?
Nov 26 00:51:01 <CatButts> what about up-down-left-right
Nov 26 00:51:05 <Maxdamantus> You don't bother gathering data for things you already know.
Nov 26 00:51:20 <Maxdamantus> Yes, those should also produce the same input on all N900 devices.
Nov 26 00:52:03 <Maxdamantus> at a hardware level, the keyboard is just a 2D grid of buttons.
Nov 26 00:52:43 <CatButts> different keycode will be produced when same key is pressed with different mappings
Nov 26 00:52:47 <CatButts> that's the point
Nov 26 00:52:49 <Maxdamantus> If you press the button with the same coordinates on two different N900 devices, it will produce the same electronic signals to the CPU.
Nov 26 00:53:31 <Maxdamantus> No. Keycode is independent of mapping (at least at an Xorg level)
Nov 26 00:53:59 <Maxdamantus> The keycode is determined by the keypad driver in Linux, which should behave the same way across devices.
Nov 26 00:54:45 <Maxdamantus> The thing that's configured differently because of different keyboard layouts is the mapping between keycodes and keysyms, which happens in Xorg.
Nov 26 00:55:25 <Maxdamantus> when you receive a keyboard event in X11, you get the keycode, then you can look up the keysym.
Nov 26 00:55:32 <CatButts> so an application can listen to either keycode or keysym?
Nov 26 00:55:49 <Maxdamantus> Yes.
Nov 26 00:56:00 <CatButts> in this case the first stage becomes useless
Nov 26 00:56:02 <Maxdamantus> Try running `xev`
Nov 26 00:56:36 <Maxdamantus> it will show you both the "key code", which is just some number reported by the kernel, independent of you keyboard layout.
Nov 26 00:57:27 <Maxdamantus> It'll also show the "key sym", which is how applications should generally interpret that key code (eg, as the letter 'a' or the escape key)
Nov 26 01:00:02 <CatButts> so this theoretical application is now reduced to pretty, unified interface for games to receive keymappings from
Nov 26 01:22:49 <Oksanaa> I am quite annoyed at how physically frail Nokia N900's back cover is. Battery cover.
Nov 26 01:23:46 <Oksanaa> Plastic hook can be broken off, camera lens cover may stop spring-ing properly into open-closed positions, and back-stand may be broken out of the plastic, too.
Nov 26 01:24:18 <Oksanaa> Besides the magnet wishing to come unglued, which is relatively easy to fix.
Nov 26 01:27:30 <Oksanaa> I have just received a Nokia N900 with broken case. MicroUSB port works (for charging, at least; will try flashing later), screen is fine if slightly scratched (I applied a screen protector immediately upon receiving the device). Major damage? Back cover misses a triangle of plastic (no clue how it
Nov 26 01:28:19 <Oksanaa> And it's difficult to find N900's back cover being sold. Whole case? Easy. Battery cover only? Difficult. I could check again...
Nov 26 01:28:19 <Oksanaa> happened, innards seem to be fine), back-stand shows its sharp metal pointy ends, and plastic hooks are broken off.
Nov 26 01:28:38 <Oksanaa> I wish Mugen or somebody else continued to make N900 battery covers.
Nov 26 01:28:50 <Oksanaa> Because I would buy more than one.
Nov 26 01:29:12 <Oksanaa> Stylus is much easier to source.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 26 03:00:00 2017