**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jan 22 03:00:02 2018
Jan 22 05:39:38 <sicelo> Wizzup: yay!
Jan 22 05:48:14 <Juest0> nice, so it is completed yet?
Jan 22 07:53:59 <Wizzup> Juest0: no, but when we have a ddable developer image in a week or two, we can try to get more people involved
Jan 22 07:54:08 <Wizzup> once there is a stable base, adding other things might be easier
Jan 22 08:17:31 <Juest0> no other platforms than arm and n900 yet?
Jan 22 08:17:38 <Juest0> alright thanks Wizzup 
Jan 22 08:17:47 <Wizzup> Juest0: freemangordon has been testing on amd64
Jan 22 08:17:54 <Juest0> how that went
Jan 22 08:17:58 <Wizzup> well, it runs?
Jan 22 08:18:03 <Juest0> all of it?
Jan 22 08:18:09 <Wizzup> no, what I showed you
Jan 22 08:18:15 <Juest0> oh right
Jan 22 08:18:17 <Wizzup> there's a lot of things that are not ported, this is just the base
Jan 22 08:18:24 <Wizzup> hopefully more people can then show up and help porting more :) 
Jan 22 08:18:30 <Juest0> well, the base runs? :p
Jan 22 08:18:41 <Wizzup> hildon-desktop and such, yes
Jan 22 08:19:43 <Juest0> im yet to upgrade my devuan vm and i am running low on disk space plus an infected installation i am yet to resolve :(
Jan 22 08:21:05 <Wizzup> wait a week or two :) 
Jan 22 08:26:29 <Juest0> heh
Jan 22 08:26:30 <Juest0> alright
Jan 22 13:25:06 <enyc> Wizzup: hrrm...   to what extent can new kerenl be used with original maemo system, too ... ?
Jan 22 13:26:05 <Wizzup> idk, some parts might work, others not, it's been done before with pali's kernel, but requires some changes to rootfs as well
Jan 22 13:26:13 <Wizzup> not interested in looking backwards though :) 
Jan 22 13:27:59 <enyc> kk
Jan 22 13:28:16 <enyc> Wizzup: intention is to have a working system that integrates with existing open parts of maemo/hildon  or so ???
Jan 22 13:32:24 <Wizzup> intention is to have a modern base (devuan/debian) with maemo/hildon components so that it can be used as a phone/internet-tablet just like n900, on the n900 and other phones
Jan 22 13:32:37 <Wizzup> will write more about it soon
Jan 22 13:35:47 <enyc> Wizzup: goodgood!
Jan 22 13:37:39 <pkill9> Wizzup: how close are you to releasing it?
Jan 22 13:38:35 <enyc> Wizzup: My input towards testers -- you mention SD cards...    It would be really good if you could make decent howto  for SD-card-only based install,  with howot make existing common  maemo "bootmenu"  able to provide this as a boot-option.   Preferably, workable as "extra" partition on larger sd-card, allowing existing maemo with /media/mmc1  to co-exist  with  'experimental devuan on /media/mmc1p3 sort of 
Jan 22 13:38:41 <enyc> thing....    Not everybody will have/want separate-n900 or so to 'test' with.    Not everybody will be u-boot/etc expert.
Jan 22 13:42:13 <Wizzup> enyc: this is how IU use it
Jan 22 13:42:18 <Wizzup> how I use it
Jan 22 13:42:36 <Wizzup> sd card only
Jan 22 13:42:54 <Wizzup> if you have u-boot installed via ham you only need to select 'boot from sd card' or type 'run sdboot'
Jan 22 13:42:57 <Wizzup> it's not rocket science
Jan 22 13:42:58 <Wizzup> :)
Jan 22 13:43:10 <Wizzup> but yes, we'll do some writeup
Jan 22 13:43:11 <enyc> Wizzup: ok, what about those using "bootmenu" rather than "u-boot" ?
Jan 22 13:43:16 <Wizzup> enyc: bootmenu is u-boot
Jan 22 13:43:22 <Wizzup> afaik
Jan 22 13:43:31 <enyc> Wizzup: check, don't assume, it may be awrapper around it or so
Jan 22 13:43:51 <Wizzup> doubti t
Jan 22 13:43:55 <Wizzup> it's just u-boot with some scripts
Jan 22 13:44:07 <enyc> Wizzup: yes, check the  wrapper-scripts etc  WORK with your arrangement
Jan 22 13:44:21 <Wizzup> http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=81613
Jan 22 13:44:31 <Wizzup> enyc: I don't understand why you act like that, I know it's u-boot
Jan 22 13:44:54 <enyc> Wizzup: because i don't have a definite confirmation/explanation what the  "bootmenu" wrapper-scripts/tools are
Jan 22 13:45:55 <enyc> Wizzup: also, the other thing that would be worth checking, is  "co-existance"  with  sd-card maemo data parttiton and maemo Swap-on-SD-card  (flopswap).   Is it possible to have those working with maemo "as usual" and  have  a e.g. 4th partition on the SD-card, to "boot devuan from" ?
Jan 22 13:45:57 <Wizzup> bootmenu is u-boot with some scripts that generate u-boot config file/menu
Jan 22 13:46:05 <Wizzup> enyc: yes
Jan 22 13:46:16 <enyc> Wizzup: excellent =)
Jan 22 13:46:42 <enyc> ok, good =)  write those all up,  collect seggusionts etc etc, highly agree!
Jan 22 13:46:50 <enyc> do you have maemo-camera working in devuan ?
Jan 22 13:47:30 <enyc> err n900 camera i mean
Jan 22 13:47:57 <Wizzup> I don't know, didn't check yet, other stuff to sort first. What we want it something that boots and is usable for development, and then developers can pick this up
Jan 22 13:48:13 <enyc> nods!
Jan 22 13:48:31 <enyc> dev environment includes qemu-system-arm chroot ??
Jan 22 13:48:38 <enyc> err qemu-user-arm i mean
Jan 22 13:48:46 <bencoh> enyc: for n900 mainline support: https://elinux.org/N900
Jan 22 13:48:55 <bencoh> it's relatively up-to-date
Jan 22 13:49:05 <Wizzup> enyc: no, not at this point
Jan 22 13:49:46 <enyc> bencoh: ooooooooooooooooooh recent kernels ...
Jan 22 13:50:14 <bencoh> Wizzup: btw, building arm packages on devuan/ascii (or debian/stretch) is as simple as runing dpkg-buildpackages, except for packages where multilib/paths support is broken
Jan 22 13:50:35 <bencoh> -s
Jan 22 13:50:46 <Wizzup> bencoh: do you mean dpkg-buildpackage sorts out the cross compiler or qemu stuff
Jan 22 13:50:57 <bencoh> cross-compiler stuff (no qemu as far as I can tell), yes
Jan 22 13:51:05 <Wizzup> ok
Jan 22 13:51:11 <Wizzup> well, we also have autobuild env, but yeah
Jan 22 13:51:13 <bencoh> all you have to do is install the deps for the target arch
Jan 22 13:51:18 <Wizzup> I've done most of the powervr testing on the deviec itself via ssh
Jan 22 13:51:32 <Wizzup> bencoh: neat
Jan 22 13:52:00 <bencoh> xorg-server is broken for instance, and you need to relocate its .pc file to build packages depending on it
Jan 22 13:52:07 <bencoh> nothing too difficult though :)
Jan 22 13:54:49 <Wizzup> bencoh: in the end we'd want everything in jenkins/ci
Jan 22 13:55:16 <bencoh> Wizzup: native build, or cross?
Jan 22 13:55:21 <Wizzup> native
Jan 22 13:55:25 <bencoh> ah
Jan 22 13:55:37 <Wizzup> bencoh: everything at http://maedevu.maemo.org/ is already native ly built
Jan 22 13:55:40 <bencoh> yeah
Jan 22 13:55:45 <bencoh> I know
Jan 22 13:55:47 <Wizzup> ack
Jan 22 13:56:09 <enyc> hrrm nokia-n900's expensive to find now ??
Jan 22 13:56:34 <bencoh> unfortunately there is no real (working) cross build environment for debian (apart from the one I mentioned, but it's still not completely supported)
Jan 22 13:56:51 <bencoh> enyc: depends on where you live and what you're looking for
Jan 22 13:58:37 <Wizzup> enyc: bout 25 euro
Jan 22 13:58:49 <bencoh> Wizzup: seriously? where from?
Jan 22 13:58:52 <Wizzup> .nl
Jan 22 13:58:58 <Wizzup> I bought about 5 for that price
Jan 22 13:59:06 <bencoh> hmm ... okay, I really need to get one
Jan 22 13:59:10 <bencoh> any link? :)
Jan 22 13:59:28 <Wizzup> they only ship to nl, it's refurbished, but I can get one and send it your way
Jan 22 13:59:35 <Wizzup> it's like a dutch ebay
Jan 22 13:59:38 <bencoh> that'd be awesome :)
Jan 22 14:00:04 <Wizzup> ok, poke me about it a bit later :) 
Jan 22 14:00:11 <bencoh> sure ... thanks! :)
Jan 22 14:27:21 <enyc> bencoh: I (thought) the core of debian (compliers etc) is all that really 'needs' to cross-build, then qemu-user chroots  (or real hardare) can do rest of the work ?
Jan 22 21:25:42 <DocScrutinizer05> bootmenu is *inside* linux, called from preinit. uBoot is *before* linux
Jan 22 21:27:34 <freemangordon> right
Jan 22 21:28:07 <DocScrutinizer05> it's just Pali decided to bastardize the bootmenu file hierarchy and syntax to configure uBoot by running a wizard that "compiles" the uBoot config file from bootmenu special entries
Jan 22 21:28:47 <DocScrutinizer05> but technically bootmenu and uBoot are totally orhogonal
Jan 22 21:31:49 <DocScrutinizer05> hi freemangordon :-)
Jan 22 21:33:33 <freemangordon> hi!
Jan 22 21:34:08 <DocScrutinizer05> and then there once been (*DEPRECATED*) multiboot that flashed a new kernel from within the system and then rebooted the system into another system. Obviously something every normal MoBo manual warns you NOT to do regularly and only with very stable and secure power supply
Jan 22 21:35:22 <DocScrutinizer05> ~maemo-multiboot
Jan 22 21:35:22 <infobot> maemo-multiboot is, like, deprecated, and a horrible hack.  PROBLEMS WITH NITDROID/MULTIBOOT? reflash rootfs&kernel aka COMBINED
Jan 22 21:44:23 <DocScrutinizer05> to put it even more concise and to the point: multiboot is a shellscript run by busybox, uBoot is a bootloader to load kernels and hand them rootfs pointers
Jan 22 21:44:31 <DocScrutinizer05> ooops
Jan 22 21:44:43 <DocScrutinizer05> to put it even more concise and to the point: bootmenu is a shellscript run by busybox, uBoot is a bootloader to load kernels and hand them rootfs pointers
Jan 22 21:45:45 <DocScrutinizer05> backupmenu is a "plugin" for bootmenu
Jan 22 21:46:23 <DocScrutinizer05> so you can think of bootmenu as maemo's "init s"
Jan 22 21:47:35 <DocScrutinizer05> which is another occasion that shows clearly why we don't want systemd in maemo
Jan 22 21:48:11 <Juesto> hey freemangordon how is the amd64 experience of hildon coming?
Jan 22 21:48:35 <DocScrutinizer05> not like systemd could even run maemo since both want exclusive control over cgroups
Jan 22 21:54:11 <Maxdamantus> To be fair, systemd doesn't have to be the first process that is ever run, like with practically any sane init system.
Jan 22 21:54:36 <Maxdamantus> as long as the "bootmenu" execs it as pid 1, it shouldn't conflict with bootmenu itself.
Jan 22 21:56:31 <Maxdamantus> on my (Debian) system at work, my initramfs mounts the root filesystem, pivot_roots into it and execs systemd.
Jan 22 22:06:30 <freemangordon> Juesto: like... hildon experience :)
Jan 22 22:06:43 <Juesto> yeah, hildon-desktop
Jan 22 22:07:02 <Juesto> looking forward to try it ;p
Jan 22 22:31:23 <enyc> DocScrutinizer05 thankyou for the bootmenu explanation =)
Jan 22 22:31:44 <enyc> DocScrutinizer05: how does bootmenu 'detect' extra bootable options on sd-card partitions etc.?
Jan 22 22:32:51 <DocScrutinizer05> you place file snippeds into /etc/bootmeny or somesuch
Jan 22 22:34:34 <DocScrutinizer05> when you install e.g. the powerkernel uBoot image, it installs the needed file into that bootmenu dir, then runs this wizard taht scans all files in the dir, collects the uBoot-related ones and assembles a uBoot.xfg or whatever the name
Jan 22 22:35:25 <Maxdamantus> .scr probably
Jan 22 22:35:45 <DocScrutinizer05> the wizard itself prolly supposed to come with uBoot
Jan 22 22:36:12 <DocScrutinizer05> check the dependencies, it will show up in there I guess
Jan 22 22:36:19 <Maxdamantus> Probably not. The menu in u-boot was written by Pali.
Jan 22 22:36:32 <Maxdamantus> Not sure if people use it on other devices.
Jan 22 22:38:30 <DocScrutinizer05> or check the postinstall script of powerkernel image, it calls the wizard, while the file list of that same pkg should list the file snippet
Jan 22 22:39:03 <DocScrutinizer05> makes sense?
Jan 22 22:54:05 <enyc> DocScrutinizer05: the expectancy of extra entries in /etc/bootmenu  and so on, compliced to uboot  all completely makes sense, no surpises
Jan 22 22:54:26 <enyc> DocScrutinizer05: i was wondering if there might be some sort of "magic filename on any partition" sort of approch, apparently not ...
Jan 22 22:54:48 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik not
Jan 22 22:55:24 <Juesto> if i was to get a n900, what i should do first?
Jan 22 22:55:33 <Juesto> is it worth to have a n900 nowadays?
Jan 22 23:07:08 <pkill9> what do you want out of it Juesto?
Jan 22 23:07:20 <Juesto> I am not sure
Jan 22 23:07:26 <Juesto> experiment with it
Jan 22 23:08:21 <pkill9> not sure, the stock kernel has required closed source blobs and is really outdated :/
Jan 22 23:08:56 <Juesto> i think it would be a great experience
Jan 22 23:09:01 <Juesto> to use such phone
Jan 22 23:09:04 <Juesto> might be wrong
Jan 22 23:10:53 <Maxdamantus> If you want a phone that's relatively similar to a typical desktop Linux system, maybe.
Jan 22 23:11:08 <Juesto> yeah could be
Jan 22 23:11:15 <Juesto> would you compare maemo to mac?
Jan 22 23:12:32 <pkill9> i hope Wizzup's project with Devuan will be viable
Jan 22 23:12:54 <Juesto> yes it will
Jan 22 23:12:58 <Juesto> a few more weeks he said
Jan 22 23:13:03 <pkill9> apparently they got Hildon + powervr (the GPU) working on Devuan
Jan 22 23:13:07 <Juesto> i kind of wish to try the original first
Jan 22 23:13:15 <Juesto> i mean
Jan 22 23:13:18 <Juesto> it is still usable
Jan 22 23:13:23 <pkill9> yeah it is
Jan 22 23:13:28 <Juesto> i do not mind non-foss
Jan 22 23:13:48 <Maxdamantus> Depends how you use the Mac.
Jan 22 23:14:19 <Juesto> mac suits my power user style because its mostly gui, easy to use
Jan 22 23:14:25 <Juesto> not as problematic as linux
Jan 22 23:14:34 <Juesto> and it still unix
Jan 22 23:14:42 <Maxdamantus> If you use macOS or a Linux-based system in such a way that the fact that there's a unix-like system underneath matters, they could be comparable.
Jan 22 23:17:39 <Juesto> yes, the proprietary and foss mix
Jan 22 23:23:17 <Wizzup> hildon-desktop works with powervr now
Jan 22 23:23:25 <Wizzup> (since 30 minutes)
Jan 22 23:23:36 <Wizzup> pkill9: p.s. it's not just my project
Jan 22 23:23:44 <Wizzup> freemangordon and parazyd are doing a lot of the heavy liften
Jan 22 23:23:46 <Wizzup> lifting
Jan 22 23:23:49 <Wizzup> hopefully soon more people :) 
Jan 22 23:23:56 <pkill9> ah ok, and great news :)
Jan 22 23:24:16 <Wizzup> it's a bit jerky, but quite good
Jan 22 23:24:18 <parazyd> \o/
Jan 22 23:24:19 <pkill9> do you have a project page?
Jan 22 23:24:25 <Wizzup> yes, but it's not ready yet :P 
Jan 22 23:24:30 <pkill9> ok
Jan 22 23:24:32 <Wizzup> https://maemo-leste.github.io/
Jan 22 23:24:37 <Wizzup> in a day or two there will be more text
Jan 22 23:25:12 <pkill9> i'd like to help, though I'm not sure what needs doing and I doubt I could help much with the heavy lifting
Jan 22 23:25:15 <Juesto> Wizzup: what is parazyd doing?
Jan 22 23:25:47 <parazyd> https://pub.parazyd.cf/dev/random/magic.gif
Jan 22 23:26:01 <Juesto> seriously asking
Jan 22 23:26:25 <Wizzup> we'll blog about it
Jan 22 23:26:32 <Juesto> where
Jan 22 23:26:35 <Wizzup> he's doing devuan stuff, ci, autobuilds and more
Jan 22 23:26:40 <Juesto> ah i see
Jan 22 23:26:48 <Juesto> automation
Jan 22 23:27:12 <Juesto> devuan ascii is the next version name?
Jan 22 23:27:16 <Juesto> or testing
Jan 22 23:27:17 <Juesto> ?
Jan 22 23:28:08 <parazyd> Juesto: devuan ascii is the next stable. coming soon
Jan 22 23:28:22 <Juesto> alright
Jan 22 23:28:29 <parazyd> we're finalizing the installer now and that should make it ready
Jan 22 23:28:35 <Wizzup> Juesto: it's basically debian stretch
Jan 22 23:28:45 <Juesto> alright
Jan 22 23:29:29 <Wizzup> I mean
Jan 22 23:29:31 <Wizzup> it's more
Jan 22 23:29:40 <Juesto> does this project guarantee and ensure the original experience/spirit of maemo?
Jan 22 23:29:42 <Wizzup> but the packages are mostly stretch
Jan 22 23:29:54 <Wizzup> Juesto: that's a vague question :) 
Jan 22 23:30:07 <Juesto> intended
Jan 22 23:30:12 <Juesto> i am asking broadly
Jan 22 23:30:19 <Wizzup> then "maybe"
Jan 22 23:30:20 <Wizzup> :P
Jan 22 23:31:21 <Juesto> should a user who installs leste on his n900 expect bugs fixed while requiring no learning curve?
Jan 22 23:31:40 <Wizzup> right now? definitely
Jan 22 23:31:45 <Wizzup> in the future? hopefully not
Jan 22 23:31:48 <Juesto> aka, experience the system how they always did
Jan 22 23:31:50 <Juesto> Oh...
Jan 22 23:31:59 <Juesto> why
Jan 22 23:32:07 <Wizzup> because bugs always exist :) 
Jan 22 23:32:19 <Wizzup> btw, don't count on being able to use it as a daily driver in a few weeks
Jan 22 23:32:27 <Wizzup> I said, in a week or two we'll have an sd card image that people can try
Jan 22 23:32:35 <Wizzup> and hopefully attract developers to help out more
Jan 22 23:33:02 <Juesto> of course, i just asked with the supposition of a existing release
Jan 22 23:33:22 <Wizzup> right now a lot is missing.
Jan 22 23:33:29 <Wizzup> you can't even connect to wifi without using the terminal
Jan 22 23:33:34 <Wizzup> that will change
Jan 22 23:33:51 <Juesto> not at this state
Jan 22 23:33:57 <Juesto> oh well
Jan 22 23:33:58 <Juesto> nvm
Jan 22 23:34:01 <Juesto> good luck
Jan 22 23:34:06 <Wizzup> :)
Jan 22 23:34:08 <Wizzup> it's late here
Jan 22 23:34:10 <Wizzup> gn
Jan 22 23:34:15 <Juesto> enjoy your night buddy
Jan 22 23:34:21 <Wizzup> short one, but worth it :P 
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jan 23 03:00:03 2018