**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Mar 04 03:00:02 2018
Mar 04 08:05:31 <KotCzarny> nice, oscp-0.9.80 working just fine on n800
Mar 04 08:05:51 <KotCzarny> eat this perishable software!
Mar 04 12:05:23 <Lantizia> Lo, looking at my n900 at the moment... wondering what to do with it... does anyone need one? because I'm a bit stumped what to do with it
Mar 04 12:06:19 <Lantizia> lets face it maemo 5 isn't going to get any radical overhaul any time soon - no alt os's other than andriod (and then very out of date) - and I think nokia/ms still haven't given 100% of all source code for hardware drivers if I'm right?
Mar 04 12:06:29 <Lantizia> so long term it's a lemon that'll stay in the past
Mar 04 12:07:17 <Lantizia> few unique features I see it having (v.s. lots of other random arm/atom based embedded crap - that I'm also in the process of *judging*) is the keyboard, the built in wifi, the radio transmit/receive and the irDA
Mar 04 12:07:37 <sy> Lantizia: try maemo leste or postmarketOS
Mar 04 12:07:48 <sy> they're the current community projects
Mar 04 12:07:54 <Lantizia> i threw my zaurus sl-5500 out the other month - similar reason 
Mar 04 12:08:05 <Lantizia> sy - ok i'll look
Mar 04 12:08:30 <Lantizia> sy, maemo 7?  there was never a 6!
Mar 04 12:08:51 <sy> Windows 9
Mar 04 12:09:07 <Lantizia> true :D - tell me that leste is at least deb/apt based again though?
Mar 04 12:09:20 <sicelo> some consider harmattan/MeeGo to have been 6
Mar 04 12:09:44 <sy> Lantizia: yep
Mar 04 12:09:53 <sy> based on devuan
Mar 04 12:09:55 <Lantizia> oh thank f for that
Mar 04 12:10:08 <Lantizia> devuan!?  oh - that crap
Mar 04 12:10:14 <Lantizia> but better than nothing i guess
Mar 04 12:12:12 <Lantizia> perhaps this little guy has a future after all
Mar 04 12:18:42 <Vajb> what's wrong with devuan? Im using it on my server machine and i've been pleased so far.
Mar 04 12:19:24 <Lantizia> i think its reason forking was tbh elitism
Mar 04 12:20:26 <Vajb> i took it more of "not putting all the eggs in one basket"
Mar 04 12:20:55 <Vajb> also "we did it because we could"
Mar 04 12:21:37 <Lantizia> i see systemd as doing more to unite the linux distro's than lsb has ever achieved - and its long overdue
Mar 04 12:22:05 <Hurrian> doesn't maemo 5 use upstart?
Mar 04 12:22:19 <freemangordon> yes
Mar 04 12:22:52 <Hurrian> switching to systemd and rewriting init scripts may be a pain point for updating packages for M7
Mar 04 12:23:35 <Hurrian> so yeah, totally understand if a move to systemd isn't in the cards for Leste yet
Mar 04 12:24:02 <freemangordon> we have to rewrite init scripts anyways as upstart is no more
Mar 04 12:24:05 <Vajb> but why would we need united distros?
Mar 04 12:24:31 <Lantizia> "more to unite" - not "united"
Mar 04 12:25:02 <freemangordon> comeon, lets not put everything and the kitchen sink in pid 0 of embedded device
Mar 04 12:25:03 <Vajb> well semantics, but my question stands
Mar 04 12:25:25 <Lantizia> except your question is based on the idea i'd want them "united" - didn't say that.
Mar 04 12:26:12 <Vajb> more like "what if all the car manufacturers used same engine"?
Mar 04 12:26:40 <Lantizia> all linux distro's do use the same car engine - linux
Mar 04 12:27:35 <Vajb> oh i thought it more as all have four wheels and a box for passengers, but ok
Mar 04 12:28:05 <Hurrian> freemangordon: ah, Leste switches to sysvinit? neat, anywhere I can read a design document on M7?
Mar 04 12:28:12 <freemangordon> no, openrc
Mar 04 12:28:16 <Hurrian> been out of the loop a while
Mar 04 12:28:18 <Hurrian> ah
Mar 04 12:28:50 <Lantizia> a "GNU/Linux" distro (as much as I hate the term, but I say this to exclude very custom things and things like Android) - should have more in common with each other than gnu tools and a linux kernel
Mar 04 12:28:54 <Lantizia> IMO
Mar 04 12:29:25 <freemangordon> Hurrian: design doc, no ATM, but you can get some idea from https://maemo-leste.github.io/
Mar 04 12:29:33 <freemangordon> check "news" section as well
Mar 04 12:30:11 <Lantizia> systemd is a step in the right direction... as is wayland/flatpak
Mar 04 12:30:28 <Hurrian> Calls on ofono, mainline kernel on RX51, and battery via UPower? :o
Mar 04 12:30:48 <Hurrian> now I _really_ have to dig my N900 out
Mar 04 12:30:48 <freemangordon> Lantizia: I guess you not that mantra - do one think, but do it well
Mar 04 12:30:55 <freemangordon> *know
Mar 04 12:31:04 <freemangordon> hmm, another typo day
Mar 04 12:31:13 <Lantizia> *confused*
Mar 04 12:31:23 <Lantizia> oh thing
Mar 04 12:31:28 <sixwheeledbeast> freemangordon: +1 I was just typing that
Mar 04 12:31:29 <freemangordon> Lantizia: I guess you know that mantra - do one thing, but do it well
Mar 04 12:31:45 <freemangordon> systemd fails in both AFAIK
Mar 04 12:31:53 <Lantizia> I do but the kernel hardly does 1 thing
Mar 04 12:32:18 <freemangordon> oh, sure it does - provides interface to userspace to access hardware
Mar 04 12:32:35 <freemangordon> this is the thing that kernel does
Mar 04 12:32:44 <Lantizia> depends on how much you abstract that one thing in an english-spoken sentence :P
Mar 04 12:33:32 <freemangordon> still, this is what kernel is supposed to do
Mar 04 12:33:37 <Lantizia> I'm sure systemd guys would say (paraphrasing wikipedia) - provides the basic building blocks for a linux system.
Mar 04 12:34:00 <Lantizia> just as there are many features to those "blocks"... there are many features of linux :D
Mar 04 12:34:58 <freemangordon> but, it is not small building blocks, but a huge rock mountain, with lots of caves ;)
Mar 04 12:35:22 <Lantizia> hardly
Mar 04 12:35:24 <freemangordon> anyway, /me is back to REing stuff
Mar 04 12:36:56 <freemangordon> as a side note - leste is not really bound to the init system, so if it turns out we made a mistake with devuan, we'll just have to tweak a couple of scripts here and there and it will still work
Mar 04 12:55:59 <KotCzarny> Lantizia: systemd is wrong on many levels, bad idea to 'do everything by itself', bad code quality, bad user interaction from devs
Mar 04 12:56:45 <KotCzarny> linux (unix) mentality is doing small code blocks that do one thing, but do it perfect
Mar 04 12:56:52 <KotCzarny> and building os from those blocks
Mar 04 12:57:50 <KotCzarny> systemd is trying to be os in itself and failing hard to provide secure and flexible environment
Mar 04 12:58:37 <Lantizia> the madness was already there, systemd is just organising the madness and giving it a name that people can point at 
Mar 04 12:58:48 <KotCzarny> why there are so many different distros? because you cant have one product that will please everyone
Mar 04 12:59:28 <KotCzarny> unifying them isnt going to win over users, more in reverse
Mar 04 12:59:29 <Lantizia> anyone who judges systemd entirely on its technical merit or past ethos of unix/linux is incapable of seeing the bigger problem or vision
Mar 04 12:59:50 <Lantizia> it's like pepsi vs coke :D
Mar 04 12:59:56 <KotCzarny> yes, vision, there were posts from systemd devs and their vision
Mar 04 13:00:21 <KotCzarny> no, it's like fastfood vs availability of versatile gourmets
Mar 04 13:01:45 <Lantizia> systemd isn't your fear (as anyone is allowed to write anything right? no matter how they think it should work), it's the possibility that people will get too reliant on systemd and assume it's always there - that it'll be a big dependancy
Mar 04 13:02:11 <KotCzarny> sure, then please use it
Mar 04 13:02:18 <KotCzarny> but dont force feed the others
Mar 04 13:02:24 <Lantizia> well i'd argue that gcc (and a whole whack of other utilities) has been in that position for years - and no one complains bitterly (ok some do) when they hear it being called GNU/Linux
Mar 04 13:03:59 <Lantizia> "a linux distro" in my head is too broad... but a "a debian-based distro" is too specific (and just gets itself into a rhel.vs.debian.vs.other-more-minor-players type situation)... there should be something inbetween that makes it a common base
Mar 04 13:04:20 <KotCzarny> yes, it's called linux kernel
Mar 04 13:04:51 <KotCzarny> luckily they won't allow braindead code from systemd devs into there
Mar 04 13:04:51 <Lantizia> and whilst we've enjoyed *assuming* everyone is likely running X.org for a desktop app (not by force, just because that how it fell)... it'd be nice for authors of system daemons to know what to expect for working with the system too (e.g. init)
Mar 04 13:05:13 <Lantizia> some stuff should just be staples of a "linux distro"
Mar 04 13:05:38 <sicelo> your "should" should actually be "could"  :-/
Mar 04 13:05:40 <Lantizia> but probably should have another name (as long as its not GNU/Linux - yuck)
Mar 04 13:05:43 <KotCzarny> thing is, trying unification is wrong in itself
Mar 04 13:06:00 <Lantizia> how? you can always go it alone anyway?  Android did
Mar 04 13:06:01 <KotCzarny> because what works for you, wont work for others
Mar 04 13:06:14 <KotCzarny> android goes commercial way
Mar 04 13:06:23 <KotCzarny> they dont want you to mess with them
Mar 04 13:06:25 <Lantizia> "some android"
Mar 04 13:06:43 <KotCzarny> they want to sell you the product
Mar 04 13:06:53 <KotCzarny> if you think about the same reasons, go away
Mar 04 13:07:04 <Lantizia> i'm not suggesting that there be some odd merging (in an inseparable sense) of linux and systemd - they'd always continue to be seperate
Mar 04 13:07:05 <KotCzarny> linux is about freedom of code, choice etc
Mar 04 13:07:29 <KotCzarny> and no, systemd wont happen in maemo
Mar 04 13:07:32 <sixwheeledbeast> Take Maemo for instance. One reason for the future of Maemo being based on Devuan going forward is the lack of systemd. systemd and Maemo would conflict with cgroups, there are legacy systems that systemd will not work with due to it's design.
Mar 04 13:07:40 <Lantizia> i'm not (and systemd isn't) trying to take away that choice
Mar 04 13:07:55 <Lantizia> if you're upset at anyone - be upset at the distro's that chose to use it
Mar 04 13:08:04 <KotCzarny> of course you can start your own distro that would work in that way
Mar 04 13:08:35 <KotCzarny> Lantizia: and yes, systemd is taking away the freedom of choice
Mar 04 13:08:49 <Lantizia> no it isn't - you don't have to use it
Mar 04 13:09:07 <KotCzarny> sure? then show me how you will do it on current debian
Mar 04 13:09:09 <KotCzarny> try it
Mar 04 13:09:11 <KotCzarny> ;)
Mar 04 13:09:14 <sicelo> so what's your point? :-/
Mar 04 13:09:18 <Lantizia> it's debian that took your choice away
Mar 04 13:09:24 <KotCzarny> rrrright
Mar 04 13:09:33 <KotCzarny> that's something new
Mar 04 13:09:46 <KotCzarny> now systemd advocated will blame distros for choosing it :>
Mar 04 13:10:01 <KotCzarny> there is a way for such attitude, toxic
Mar 04 13:10:29 <Lantizia> you seem to be suggesting that certain software has no right to exist or exist in certain forms - thats just crazy
Mar 04 13:11:09 <sicelo> looks like it's the other way round Lantizia
Mar 04 13:11:14 <sixwheeledbeast> Eh? I dont get it.  "debian took your choice away" yet you say "devuan!?  oh - that crap"
Mar 04 13:11:24 <sicelo> 14:10 < Lantizia> devuan!?  oh - that crap
Mar 04 13:11:24 <Lantizia> it is what it is - you don't like how some (e.g. debian) have chosen the ones they'll put together in a suite
Mar 04 13:11:48 <Lantizia> sicelo, yeah - i'm not a fan, so?
Mar 04 13:11:58 <Lantizia> still beats the heck out of something rhel based
Mar 04 13:11:59 <KotCzarny> so you are contradicting yourself
Mar 04 13:12:06 <sixwheeledbeast> :nod:
Mar 04 13:12:14 <KotCzarny> and that puts your other sentences in bad light
Mar 04 13:12:38 <Lantizia> it does?
Mar 04 13:12:40 <KotCzarny> yup
Mar 04 13:12:44 <sixwheeledbeast> :nod:
Mar 04 13:12:45 <KotCzarny> it's called logic
Mar 04 13:12:46 <Lantizia> don't see it
Mar 04 13:12:55 <KotCzarny> humans use that for thinking
Mar 04 13:13:06 <KotCzarny> and to extrapolate facts into opinions
Mar 04 13:13:10 <KotCzarny> and theories
Mar 04 13:13:19 <Lantizia> just because i think its a crap reason for a fork - doesn't mean i want it to not exist
Mar 04 13:13:34 <KotCzarny> yes, it was the reason
Mar 04 13:13:35 <Lantizia> you've combined two things there
Mar 04 13:13:46 <KotCzarny> because taking out systemd required adding few other packages
Mar 04 13:13:51 <KotCzarny> that were TIED to systemd
Mar 04 13:13:59 <KotCzarny> which debian refused to have
Mar 04 13:14:08 <Lantizia> so?  how does this relate to what you were personally attacking me for?
Mar 04 13:14:22 <KotCzarny> i'm not attacking you, that's another thing
Mar 04 13:14:29 <sixwheeledbeast> I don't think anyone is attacking anyone, BTW
Mar 04 13:14:34 <sicelo> no one attacked you at anytime
Mar 04 13:14:54 <Lantizia> it's like if I said windows was crap - it's just an opinion... but i've no right/means to make it no exist or exist in another way
Mar 04 13:15:12 <Lantizia> well your quoting me as though it's proof of me being illogical
Mar 04 13:15:20 <Lantizia> i don't see it - it's coming off personal
Mar 04 13:16:00 * sicelo uses systemd on both laptop and desktop btw - debian :)
Mar 04 13:19:06 <KotCzarny> 'you're'
Mar 04 13:19:29 <Lantizia> well thanks KotCzarny - caught be red handed
Mar 04 13:19:41 <Lantizia> oops! another typo... will you spot it?
Mar 04 13:20:30 <KotCzarny> typo would be youre
Mar 04 13:20:33 <sixwheeledbeast> No-one working Devuan wanted a fork in the first place it was a necessary evil. I fail to see how thats a crap reason to go to that effort.
Mar 04 13:21:33 <KotCzarny> btw. real unifying would be creating flexible distro that anyone could EASILY customize
Mar 04 13:21:40 <Lantizia> sixwheeledbeast, I think if it was a gentoo/slackware fork or something like that (and lets say I was a big user of one of them) - i'd have not called it 'crap'
Mar 04 13:22:05 <Lantizia> but I think it shows a failure to really get what debian is trying to achieve (or at least has been achieving)
Mar 04 13:22:14 <KotCzarny> distros exist because people had specific needs unfullfilled by existing solutions
Mar 04 13:24:15 <KotCzarny> one could argue that any debian-like/rh-like distro shouldnt exist because there was no enough reason to split
Mar 04 13:24:22 <Lantizia> i mean if devuan had started something fresh (not a fork) and just used the deb packaging format - i'd also not likely call it 'crap'
Mar 04 13:24:30 <KotCzarny> yet, they do, and they work out for people 
Mar 04 13:24:34 <Lantizia> but it just defeats the point of debian in my mind
Mar 04 13:24:52 <Lantizia> which is that of a common, easy to install, secure, minimal base
Mar 04 13:25:28 <Lantizia> KotCzarny, most don't fiddle with the base though - e.g. mint
Mar 04 13:39:51 <Vajb> i think that in ideal world, there would be a "webpage" in where you build your own distro just by choosing what you want in it.
Mar 04 13:40:18 <KotCzarny> well, there is lfs
Mar 04 13:40:20 <KotCzarny> :)
Mar 04 13:40:27 <KotCzarny> but 'some assembly required' ;)
Mar 04 13:41:19 <Vajb> oh, guess i'll have to read up about it
Mar 04 13:42:04 <KotCzarny> http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/
Mar 04 13:42:51 <Vajb> oo, by description it sounds exactly what i was picturing in my thoughts
Mar 04 13:42:55 <KotCzarny> :)
Mar 04 13:43:13 <Vajb> i've been hacked!
Mar 04 13:43:34 <KotCzarny> nope, you were just reading wrong parts of the internet
Mar 04 13:44:56 <Vajb> maybe even alfs
Mar 04 13:45:33 <Vajb> no. I meant that i had an original idea and it was already there
Mar 04 13:45:44 <Vajb> btw jk oc
Mar 04 21:50:21 <DocScrutinizer05> ohmy, why doesn't any knowledgeable user kick in when >>nokia/ms still haven't given 100% of all source code for hardware drivers<< and >>maemo 7?  there was never a 6!<< ?
Mar 04 21:54:56 * DocScrutinizer05 pukes a bit at systemd
Mar 04 21:56:16 <DocScrutinizer05> there was a time when all UNIX was more or less compatible, particularly regarding no dependencies on a "init system"
Mar 04 21:57:45 <DocScrutinizer05> then came systemd because "new lette stuff is better" and made a linux flavor that's not compatible to other unices any more, and now that crap is "the great unifier"? ROTFL
Mar 04 21:57:54 <DocScrutinizer05> leete, even
Mar 04 21:59:38 <DocScrutinizer05> even when it were true that before systemd there would have been a mess of incompatible init systems (which is a lie), then https://xkcd.com/927/
Mar 04 22:00:54 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: on the bright side - https://imgur.com/a/XxTTX
Mar 04 22:03:05 <DocScrutinizer05> don't get me started about the mindset of those applauding to a project forcefeeding its crap down everybody's throat and calling that "welcome unification"
Mar 04 22:03:37 <DocScrutinizer05> sounds like an approach right back from 1933
Mar 04 22:08:45 * DocScrutinizer05 will deploy face recognition for subway, ATMs, acess control of all kinds, and build that face recog in a way that makes it mandatory to shave your hair off for it to work. Welcome unification of people's look and style on the streets
Mar 04 22:10:05 <DocScrutinizer05> you don't like being bald? but why? it's the future and makes so many things so much easier/better
Mar 04 22:16:47 <DocScrutinizer05> ((mindset of those applauding)) worst part in it: those who applaud the loudest are those that have the last clue about the topic. When you don't understand what an init system does and how init works, most likely not even have any skills to write a shellscript, then sure you will happily eat the BS about "systemd unit files simpler than init scripts"
Mar 04 22:17:05 <DocScrutinizer05> s/ last / least /
Mar 04 22:17:05 <infobot> DocScrutinizer05 meant: ((mindset of those applauding)) worst part in it: those who applaud the loudest are those that have the least clue about the topic. When you don't understand what an init system does and how init works, most likely not even have any skills to write a shel...
Mar 04 22:24:47 <DocScrutinizer05> we've been there before and seen EXACTLY SAME SHIT happen, based on same type of false assumptions, broken promises and incompetence, with PolypAudio replacing ALSA. Just PA is no hard dependency of everything and their installer program, like systemd now - you *can* kick it out and get working audio again thanks ALSA which for sure is not optimal either but still better than PA after all those years of PA fixing alleged issues in ALSA 
Mar 04 22:24:49 <DocScrutinizer05> that never really existed. Thanks to exactly same guy who brings us system D now
Mar 04 22:42:32 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: sorry for delay, had to vent a little. Great!
Mar 04 23:22:57 <Oksanaa> pkill9 : I am using Nokia N900 as daily phone, and when MicroB doesn't work, I use Fennec 17. If it doesn't work either, I use laptop because I am too lazy to test other N900's browsers (chromium and such). ssh -X into a desktop machine could also work. Internet Banking works fine in MicroB, and I
Mar 04 23:25:29 <Oksanaa> don't use WhatsApp (telepathy is fine for IRC and SIP)
Mar 04 23:28:47 <Oksanaa> Lantizia : I apologise for my personal almost-religious anti-systemd-ish-ness [I am similarly stubborn about many topics], but if big Linux kernel becomes a problem, I will find a micro-kernel (like Minix) to swtich to, instead of saying "oh, kernel is huge and bloated, let's have init-systemd which
Mar 04 23:31:09 <Oksanaa> is huge and bloated, too". I don't drink pepsi/coke/soda, and I don't subscribe to sameness/monopolism. 
Mar 04 23:33:19 <Oksanaa> Either way, I am quite sure that it's not that difficult to take "maemo 7" and install systemd on it (if you wish to). After all, systemd knows how to handle all different types of init scripts, doesn't it? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SystemdForUpstartUsers 
Mar 04 23:43:03 <sixwheeledbeast> Fennec? I assume thumb?
Mar 04 23:43:13 <Oksanaa> sixwheeledbeast : I guess so.
Mar 04 23:43:55 <Oksanaa> It is slow, but the websites are more likely to work in it than in MicroB. Still, it is slow.
Mar 04 23:46:47 <Oksanaa> As for tab interface of MicroB... http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=67622 
Mar 04 23:53:36 <sixwheeledbeast> Issue with systemd and maemo is cgroups. The whole systemd decision started by bashing Devuan doubt it would be used for Maemo. I don't believe systemd is compatible with old scripts whereas upstart is. Fennec is pretty unusable if your not on thumb.
Mar 05 00:03:16 <Juesto> Oksanaa: remember opera? that one does well too
Mar 05 00:51:58 * Maxdamantus primarily uses opera (opera mobile that is (renders on-device), not opera mini or whatever it's called (renders on opera's servers))
Mar 05 01:41:56 <Juesto> mini renders on their servers!?
Mar 05 01:42:32 <Juesto> and what's transmitted to clients then?
Mar 05 02:09:48 <Juesto> sixth maemo is harmattan
Mar 05 02:11:19 <Juesto> pfft
Mar 05 02:11:30 <Juesto> wtf some people
Mar 05 02:11:36 <Juesto> there's also mer !
Mar 05 02:11:37 <Maxdamantus> Juesto: aiui it's some combination of images and text.
Mar 05 02:11:51 <Juesto> hmm
Mar 05 02:12:06 <Maxdamantus> Juesto: but the client doesn't need to do layout computation etc
Mar 05 02:12:45 <Juesto> ah
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Mar 05 03:00:03 2018