**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May 30 03:00:02 2018
May 30 03:09:45 <brolin_empey> Yes, I still have it.  It is “Sygic Mobile Maps 10.16 Maemo With world Collection Of Maps-galedo” that I downloaded in 2011.
May 30 05:15:02 <KotCzarny> jonwil: if you want to stress the hw, you can also try building android
May 30 05:15:22 <KotCzarny> at one point single gcc process is using 5.6G of ram
May 30 05:15:23 <KotCzarny> ;)
May 30 05:15:40 <KotCzarny> that's not accounting for other processes and cache
May 30 05:15:55 <KotCzarny> darn, he is not there
May 30 05:19:34 <KotCzarny> it might've been ld though
May 30 06:41:47 <sixwheeledbeast> brolin_empey: that sounds about right chronologically. also you could switch away with the keyboard shortcuts.
May 30 06:46:30 <brolin_empey> sixwheeledbeast: ACK.
May 30 06:48:19 <sixwheeledbeast> took them a while to admit they where dropping support for maemo and they would never update the maps
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed May 30 07:24:24 2018
May 30 07:30:05 <Maxdamantus> For future reference: new polarcell battery is charged to 3.86 V out of the packaging.
May 30 07:31:01 * Maxdamantus wonders if that's a typical voltage used for all new Li-ion batteries.
May 30 07:36:38 <bencoh> Maxdamantus: 3.7V is just a "nominal" average voltage
May 30 07:37:17 <bencoh> I doubt anyone really strive to charge batteries to 3.7V specifically before shipping
May 30 07:37:23 <bencoh> +s
May 30 07:37:29 <Maxdamantus> I know, just wondering if there's some typical/standard practice for voltage of shipped batteries.
May 30 07:37:31 <bencoh> (same for 3.86V here)
May 30 07:37:41 <bencoh> ah ... dunno, I'd say "relaxed"
May 30 07:37:45 <bencoh> (neither empty nor full)
May 30 07:38:24 <bencoh> (not fully relaxed actually)
May 30 07:39:08 <Maxdamantus> The new ones seem to have an increased charge rating too (1600 mAh rather than 1500 mAh from last time)
May 30 07:39:19 <bencoh> hmm
May 30 07:39:30 <Maxdamantus> though according to my N900, the last one was closer to 1600 mAh than 1500 mAh anyway.
May 30 07:39:34 <bencoh> mine didn't stay at 1480 max for long anyway
May 30 07:39:39 <bencoh> really?
May 30 07:40:13 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, it consistently reported an LMD of around 1580 or so.
May 30 07:40:21 <bencoh> fuel gauge shows last measured discharge: 1363
May 30 07:40:32 <bencoh> for a 4~5yo battery
May 30 07:40:55 <Maxdamantus> though I imagine the exact amount there has more to do with the particular charge/discharge cycle than the composition of the chemicals as at the factory.
May 30 07:43:55 <Maxdamantus> Should probably have looked into also getting a battery for the N97 I have while I was at it. Meh.
May 30 07:49:07 * Maxdamantus will just break the tab off.
May 30 07:51:25 <Maxdamantus> N97 probably also has the charge protection in the phone, right?
May 30 07:55:06 <KotCzarny> l/j #linux-sunxi
May 30 07:55:12 <KotCzarny> 3.4.113 is armbian kernel
May 30 07:55:21 <KotCzarny> eh
May 30 07:55:24 <Wizzup> :p
May 30 08:09:15 <sixwheeledbeast> i would also expect "relaxed" like 60% ish?
May 30 08:09:40 <sixwheeledbeast> Is it the Li-ion or the Li-Po version?
May 30 08:10:06 <Maxdamantus> Li-ion
May 30 08:11:30 <bencoh> polarcell sells LiPo BL-5J?
May 30 08:12:08 <sixwheeledbeast> IIRC could be wrong tho.
May 30 08:12:31 <Maxdamantus> My old one is Li-ion too.
May 30 08:20:09 <sixwheeledbeast> Yep Li-Po 1400mAh BL-5J
May 30 08:20:23 <sixwheeledbeast> Red Label is Li-Po Blue is Li-ion
May 30 08:21:15 <sixwheeledbeast> reduced at the moment to 9,90E
May 30 08:33:24 <KotCzarny> jonwil: if you want to stress the hw, you can also try building android. at one point ld process eats ~5.6G of ram, and that's not accounting rest of the gcc and os
May 30 08:33:35 <jonwil> Ouch.
May 30 08:37:39 <jonwil> It wouldn't surprise me if building chromium is also a great stress-tester given all the crap Google has in there these days
May 30 08:37:56 <jonwil> Although I have never had any desire to build or even use Chromium so I can't comment
May 30 08:38:16 <KotCzarny> yup, that was about chromium part
May 30 08:38:36 <KotCzarny> but might be some system framework collection
May 30 08:38:41 <Maxdamantus> I think ld when building Chromium on my i5-4570 already takes a few minutes.
May 30 08:40:06 <KotCzarny> maxd: having 16GB of ram helps
May 30 08:40:16 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, I've got 32 GiB.
May 30 08:40:19 <KotCzarny> with 8GB it thrashes caches so has to reload things many times
May 30 08:40:32 <KotCzarny> have fun on 4GB
May 30 08:40:38 <jonwil> I would love to be able to upgrade to 16GB on my system (currently got 8GB)
May 30 08:40:43 <KotCzarny> one time i've tried it, it took ~50 minutes
May 30 08:40:48 <KotCzarny> because of all the swapping
May 30 08:41:02 <Maxdamantus> I don't think it would've been causing my system to put things in swap.
May 30 08:41:25 <Maxdamantus> though I suspect the filesystem accesses would've been a slow point.
May 30 08:41:42 <jonwil> Having an SSD is a great way to boost the speed of file I/O on big compiles
May 30 08:41:42 * Maxdamantus only started using an SSD on his main computer a couple of months ago.
May 30 08:41:50 * Maxdamantus hasn't used Chromium since longer ago than that.
May 30 08:42:10 <jonwil> Although I dont have room on my SSD for my vmware image file so it has to sit on my hard disk instead.
May 30 08:42:55 <jonwil> Sadly RAM prices are far too high right now for a 16GB upgrade to happen (mostly thanks to illegal cartel conduct by the RAM producers and governments unwilling or unable to actually force the RAM producers to stop ripping everyone off)
May 30 08:43:24 <Maxdamantus> Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on; 19T   11T  7.3T  60% /btrfs-hd; 900G  292G  606G  33% /btrfs
May 30 08:43:31 * Maxdamantus probably has enough space to try things.
May 30 08:43:36 <KotCzarny> jonwil: with 32GB you can just put whole compile tree in tmpfs
May 30 08:43:45 <KotCzarny> and just snapshot back to hdd when done
May 30 08:44:32 <jonwil> I feel sorry for anyone trying to build a new PC right now with the high prices of various components.
May 30 08:44:59 <KotCzarny> buy a board that accepts 8 or more ram modules?
May 30 08:45:00 <KotCzarny> :)
May 30 08:45:09 <KotCzarny> older sticks are cheap
May 30 08:46:40 <jonwil> There aren't that many motherboards out there that can take a Skylake Core i5 chip AND use old cheap RAM. My current board (only a fairly recent upgrade) uses DDR4.
May 30 08:49:00 <jonwil> Anyhow, time to run this build and see if libxul can link or not (now that I have hopefully fixed the problem causing the it to spit out errors about missing websocket and wyciwyg functions it should now link I hope)
May 30 08:50:17 <jonwil> I just hope the assertions I am seeing from LD dont mean the build is failing (although if they were the kind of thing that would result in a failed build or broken output, it wouldn't make sense for the build to continue after encountering such an assertion I would have thought)
May 30 08:52:03 <KotCzarny> jonwil, from my past experiences with ff build, it's very picky about what you enable or not
May 30 08:52:18 <KotCzarny> so just might need magic build config to succeed
May 30 08:52:47 <jonwil> Yeah I discovered that turning off websockets and wyciwyg in the necko protocols list causes the link of libxul to fail.
May 30 08:53:01 <jonwil> So I fixed that and hopefully this time it will link.
May 30 08:57:53 <KotCzarny> websockets is important in current internet2.0
May 30 08:58:05 <KotCzarny> half of those interactive sites require it to work
May 30 09:00:36 <jonwil> In other news I may need to port TLS 1.2 support to the Fremantle version of QT (which means I need a newer OpenSSL as well) since the backend I am using for the local transit agency in Fahrplan seems to have upgraded to be TLS 1.2 only.
May 30 09:00:55 <jonwil> I will know for sure once my phone finishes charging and I can get Fahrplan into the debugger
May 30 09:02:47 <jonwil> One useful thing I found is a portable Windows build of Firefox 24ESR which I can test sites with
May 30 09:03:21 <jonwil> Meaning I can figure out if a site will or wont work in the FF24-based microb-engine hopefully (it wont be a perfect test but its still fairly close)
May 30 09:03:38 <jonwil> And most of the sites I can't get working on current microb do seem to work.
May 30 09:05:38 <Maxdamantus> Does that Firefox build actually use some bundled OpenSSL rather than something provided by Windows?
May 30 09:05:59 <jonwil> What do you mean?
May 30 09:06:13 <Wizzup> firefox does not use openssl
May 30 09:06:15 <Wizzup> it uses nss
May 30 09:06:20 <jonwil> Yeah it does
May 30 09:06:26 <jonwil> QT uses OpenSSL though
May 30 09:07:57 <Maxdamantus> I'm not really familiar with NSS, but my understanding was that it's meant to be some portability layer.
May 30 09:08:06 <Maxdamantus> not a complete implementation of SSL/TLS
May 30 09:08:32 <Maxdamantus> looking an /proc/*/maps on my main system, I can see that Firefox has references to libcrypt.
May 30 09:08:42 <Maxdamantus> libcrypto*
May 30 09:13:52 <Maxdamantus> Hm, guess I'm mistaken.
May 30 09:14:13 <Wizzup> libcrypto is part of openssl
May 30 09:14:28 <Maxdamantus> Yes, but Firefox is using it for something.
May 30 09:14:38 <Wizzup> could be nss using it? anyway, I don't know 100% either ;) 
May 30 09:15:12 <Maxdamantus> but looking through the source of NSS, it seems to at least implement a bunch of some sort of logic in SSL that would probably also be implemented in OpenSSL.
May 30 09:15:32 <Maxdamantus> maybe it just uses libcrypto for implementations of the underlying cryptographic algorithms.
May 30 09:17:07 <jonwil> Nope, NSS is a full implementation of all the crypto
May 30 09:17:53 <jonwil> and has no dependencies on OpenSSL in any way
May 30 09:19:49 <jonwil> nss does contain a libssl3.so file (at least the one in microb-engine does) but that's unrelated to the libssl.so file of OpenSSL
May 30 09:22:13 <Maxdamantus> My instance has libcrypto itself (from openssl) mapped, though I imagine it could just be from another library it depends on.
May 30 09:24:09 <Maxdamantus> Yeah, comes from libevent.
May 30 09:24:31 <Maxdamantus> $ cat /proc/3594/maps | sed 's/^.*   //' | sort | uniq | while read -r x; do [ -f "$x" ] && echo "$x"; done | fgrep .so | while read x; do out="$(ldd "$x")"; grep -q libcrypto <<< "$out" && echo "$(wc -l <<< "$out") $x"; done
May 30 09:24:45 * Maxdamantus though `ldd` had some tree view, but can't seem to find it.
May 30 10:09:10 <jonwil> Looks like I need TLS 1.2 support in Maemo QT (and a newer OpenSSL) if I want to keep my transit app working since they changed the backend and it now mandates TLS 1.2.
May 30 10:16:39 <jonwil> In the mean time my build of Gecko is still going without any problems.
May 30 10:31:38 <jonwil> Now linking libxul, fingers crossed that it works with no errors...
May 30 10:32:49 <jonwil> IT WORKED
May 30 10:32:56 <jonwil> I now have a libxul.so file :)
May 30 10:57:16 <jonwil> Now I just need to figure out what needs changing in the packaging and this thing will hopefully give me a set of deb files.
May 30 11:05:22 <KotCzarny> try running it first on device
May 30 11:10:52 <jonwil> I can't try it because I probably need to install the new -dev packages then rebuild some other packages and see if the API has changed (which it probably has)
May 30 11:11:20 <KotCzarny> for now just copy libs to the same dir as binary and use export LD_LIBRARY_PATH=. trick
May 30 11:11:47 <KotCzarny> that way you will know if it runs and how fast ;)
May 30 11:14:43 <jonwil> Lets start with the xulrunner binary it gave me
May 30 11:15:06 <jonwil> see if that even runs
May 30 11:15:14 <jonwil> which will tell me if I have a working binary or not
May 30 11:17:32 <KotCzarny> as for packaging, you can probably steal fennec's one
May 30 11:19:33 <jonwil> With libxul.so at almost 1gb in size, I am not liking the chances of this thing actually working
May 30 11:20:05 <jonwil> That's probably unstripped though
May 30 11:20:08 <jonwil> which makes sense
May 30 11:23:40 <jonwil> Lets strip them before I copy them to the device
May 30 11:25:32 <KotCzarny> strip -g 
May 30 11:25:40 <KotCzarny> on the libs
May 30 11:25:44 <KotCzarny> and normal strip on binary
May 30 11:25:46 <jonwil> yeah I know.
May 30 11:25:51 <KotCzarny> :)
May 30 11:26:06 <KotCzarny> and next time change -O2 -g into -O2 -s when building
May 30 11:26:11 <KotCzarny> also, did you enable thumb?
May 30 11:26:17 <jonwil> nope, I am not using thumb at all
May 30 11:26:23 <jonwil> since I dont have the thumb kernel and I dont want it
May 30 11:27:53 <KotCzarny> with firefox and contrained by limited memory, you should, once you have working one
May 30 11:29:18 <jonwil> libxul.so goes down to 53mb after the strip
May 30 11:29:19 <jonwil> much better
May 30 11:33:26 <jonwil> Now I need to install the newer libstdc++
May 30 11:41:40 <KotCzarny> just bundle it for the test run
May 30 11:57:53 <jonwil> I got the xulrunner binary that was built as part of the FF build to work
May 30 11:58:07 <jonwil> And I can actually see websites with it(!)
May 30 11:58:18 <jonwil> So I would say that we have a working browser
May 30 12:04:28 <jonwil> It does not work if I try to run anything on the system that uses libxul though (in fact doing so crashed the phone and now I have to use rescueos to move the files I backed up back in place and get my phone to boot again)
May 30 12:05:02 <Wizzup> yes, now comes the fun part
May 30 12:05:33 <KotCzarny> told you to use local libs dir instead of destroying the system
May 30 12:06:58 <jonwil> Its not possible to use local libs for gecko because of how gecko finds its libs
May 30 12:08:34 <jonwil> its an easy fix though thanks to rescueos
May 30 12:09:28 <Maxdamantus> Surely LD_PRELOAD should at least work, right?
May 30 12:13:48 <jonwil> Its not that simple
May 30 12:14:07 <jonwil> In any case I know libgtkmozembed and the other bits just aren't going to work yet
May 30 12:14:36 <jonwil> So the plan is to fix the packaging and go from there
May 30 12:15:02 <jonwil> The most important thing is that I have a working web browser on the N900 that uses the Firefox 24.8.1 engine.
May 30 12:17:11 <jonwil> Lets see what happens when I try to load a TLS 1.2 web site on the device.
May 30 12:17:55 <KotCzarny> did you measure memory usage compared to other browser?
May 30 12:20:32 <Wizzup> jonwil: but this is not microb, right, so it's just fennec with different ui?
May 30 12:21:27 <jonwil> This is xulrunner (as built with the Firefox tree) with the sample browser from https://github.com/matthewkastor/XULRunner-Examples
May 30 12:21:53 <jonwil> The aim once I get things to actually work is to replace microb-engine
May 30 12:23:00 <jonwil> Right now I just want to see how well the Gecko I built actually works
May 30 12:24:08 <Maxdamantus> Personally, I would use conkeror over microb, but opera still seems a lot more responsive than those.
May 30 12:24:54 <Maxdamantus> but recently I've found I can't access github through that anymore.
May 30 12:25:23 * Maxdamantus has just looked through things on github using edbrowse a couple of times.
May 30 12:27:10 <Maxdamantus> btw, conkeror is also very easy to test; just clone/check out the repository, then `xulrunner application.ini`
May 30 12:28:03 <Maxdamantus> 1264c0dbbefb6d671504a072d4ddb48d62ccead2
May 30 12:28:16 <jonwil> Sites that don't work at all (due to TLS 1.1/1.2 only) on microb do work in this browser
May 30 12:28:19 <Maxdamantus> ^ that commit pretty much works with microb-xulrunner
May 30 12:36:48 <jonwil> oh crap, my dev VM is running low on disk space. Not good, especially since the drive its on is also running low on disk space
May 30 12:38:24 <KotCzarny> jonwil: told you, change build flags
May 30 12:38:31 <KotCzarny> from -O2 -g to -O2 -s
May 30 12:38:37 <KotCzarny> will save you few gigs
May 30 12:42:21 <jonwil> I have a total of ~1tb of disk across 3 drives yet I only have a total of ~66gb free across those 3 drives.
May 30 12:42:32 <jonwil> I think I need to give my disks a good cleanout
May 30 12:42:44 <bencoh> jonwil: i kinda forgot, but why 24.x?
May 30 12:43:16 <jonwil> 24 is the first version with TLS `1.2 (a necessary feature) and it pre-dates the complete removal of Maemo support
May 30 12:43:28 <jonwil> and its an ESR release (the last one before the Maemo support disappeared)
May 30 12:43:46 <jonwil> That's why its the best candidate
May 30 12:43:51 <bencoh> maemo support from mozilla you mean?
May 30 12:43:54 <bencoh> or from nokia?
May 30 12:44:05 <jonwil> Yes
May 30 12:44:09 <bencoh> yes to?
May 30 12:44:11 <jonwil> The maemo bits in the Gecko tree
May 30 12:44:13 <bencoh> ah
May 30 12:44:20 <bencoh> I see
May 30 12:44:25 <jonwil> There is a removal bug matching FF26
May 30 12:44:43 * Maxdamantus has a total of 21 TB of disk across 4 drives with ~8 TB free
May 30 12:44:58 <bencoh> Well, I guess ff24 would be goodenough(tm) anyway
May 30 12:45:03 <jonwil> I wish I could afford computer bits but I can't :(
May 30 12:45:27 <jonwil> I would love to replace the 256GB SSD I use as my main drive with something bigger (or add a second SSD) but I cant afford it.
May 30 12:45:35 <jonwil> Nor can I afford the RAM or GPU upgrades I want either
May 30 12:47:44 <jonwil> It doesn't help that so much output for RAM and Flash chips and things is going into mobile devices so that all the sheeple can have the latest crApple iFail which is one thing pushing up the price of the bits I want
May 30 12:50:42 <jonwil> conkeror runs btw
May 30 12:50:44 <jonwil> Seems to be working too
May 30 12:53:29 <Maxdamantus> and in case you want touch panning for it, here's my ~/.conkerorrc I hacked together a few years ago: https://gist.github.com/Maxdamantus/0aefa2c713afda4af04abdbb3a97ca89
May 30 12:53:50 <jonwil> Slow as molasses though with top telling me its using 86.9% CPU
May 30 12:57:25 <jonwil> And it looks to be built with -O2 so its definitely not an unoptimised build
May 30 12:59:33 <jonwil> Anyhow, at least I know FF24 DOES run on the N900
May 30 13:00:14 <Wizzup> firefox 52 also does :) 
May 30 13:04:32 <jonwil> But I suspect FF52 would be even bigger and slower than FF24 and wouldn't have any of the Maemo support bits needed to e.g. be able to click on a phone number and have it open the phone dialer
May 30 13:16:52 <Maxdamantus> I'm sure that can be reimplemented easily enough.
May 30 13:17:20 <Maxdamantus> the rtcom-messaging-ui stuff involves some HTML/JS which can be directly modified.
May 30 13:18:30 <bencoh> mmmh
May 30 13:19:00 <bencoh> Maxdamantus: you probably don't want to play around the browser EAL too much
May 30 13:19:01 <Maxdamantus> I modified them a while ago because I hated the default layout of messages.
May 30 13:19:12 <bencoh> yeah but that's the easy part
May 30 13:20:13 <Maxdamantus> Well, it should pretty much be the same part.
May 30 13:20:35 <Maxdamantus> because iirc the modifications I made involved handling the text messages in JS.
May 30 13:21:02 <Maxdamantus> so if I wanted to I could manipulate those messages in arbitrary ways to figure out what to insert into the DOM.
May 30 13:21:19 <jonwil> My ultimate goal is still ideally to replace microb-engine
May 30 13:23:20 <Maxdamantus> http://maxdamantus.eu.org/rmu.png
May 30 13:24:45 <Maxdamantus> iirc the default view had bad handling of timestamps, and put things in big bubbles where you had to use the padding on the left to identify incoming/outgoing.
May 30 13:25:01 <bencoh> Maxdamantus: wow, it basically looks just like what I wanted to do back then
May 30 13:25:27 <bencoh> (but eventually settled for something hackish and ugly)
May 30 13:25:50 <Maxdamantus> anyway, sleep
May 30 13:26:00 <bencoh> 'night
May 30 13:26:17 <bencoh> I guess I'll have to bother you about timestamps handling :)
May 30 13:26:25 * Maxdamantus needs to figure out sometime how to make the top menu not so pointlessly huge.
May 30 13:26:38 <Maxdamantus> hildon status bar thing
May 30 13:26:57 <jonwil> It wouldn't surprise me if there are options I can turn off or on that would have benefits on memory usage and performance
May 30 13:38:59 <bencoh> you might be able to "configure" jemalloc
May 30 13:39:20 <bencoh> (assuming it's still the mem allocator used by mozilla)
May 30 13:46:55 <jonwil> Somehow I dont think running FF24 and its rendering engine on a device with only 256mb of RAM is something that the Mozilla guys would call "sane"
May 30 13:48:00 <bencoh> huhu
May 30 13:48:07 <bencoh> :)
May 30 15:22:13 <jonwil> I managed to get microb-refui TestGtkEmbed from the current CSSU microb-engine to actually run and load my rebuilt libxul.so without replacing any system files. It fails with a "Couldn't start XPCOM" error but its a start.
May 30 15:22:54 <KotCzarny> i suspect microb has patched xul versin
May 30 15:23:07 <KotCzarny> check microb package for patches?
May 30 15:23:18 <jonwil> I already know microb has a lot of local patches
May 30 15:23:27 <KotCzarny> but xul related
May 30 15:24:24 <jonwil> I bet its simply the case that the xpcom bits linked into TestGtkEmbed dont match the xpcom bits linked into libxul.so because much has changed between 1.9.2 and 24.8.1
May 30 15:24:40 <KotCzarny> rebuild microb with proper headers?
May 30 15:26:15 <jonwil> I think we need to bring back the gtkmozembed stuff removed in mozilla bug 648156
May 30 15:26:23 <jonwil> That's gotta be one of the next steps I suspect
May 30 15:26:48 <jonwil> With that we can probably get a TestGtkEmbed built with FF24 code
May 30 15:27:33 <jonwil> The key thing so far is that libxul works and can browse the web when used with xulrunner and conkeror
May 30 15:29:22 <bencoh> on-device as well?
May 30 15:29:26 <bencoh> (or sdk only?)
May 30 15:29:28 <jonwil> Yep
May 30 15:29:30 <jonwil> on-device
May 30 15:29:32 <bencoh> neat
May 30 15:29:34 <jonwil> conkeror works on device
May 30 15:30:06 <bencoh> I wonder how much ram it eats
May 30 15:30:23 <bencoh> hmm, I wonder if we could benefit from a better JS JIT
May 30 15:31:18 <KotCzarny> as long it doesnt trade mem usage for performance
May 30 15:31:23 <KotCzarny> which might be the case
May 30 15:50:34 <jonwil> According to https://blog.mozilla.org/javascript/2012/09/12/ionmonkey-in-firefox-18/ we do get a much better JIT than the one in microb-engine
May 30 15:51:10 <jonwil> Anyhow, its definitely "AM" here (to quote Apollo 13 "AM, very, very AM") which means its time to stop for now and resume later :)
May 30 15:51:13 <jonwil> cya :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu May 31 03:00:07 2018