**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 28 03:00:02 2018
Jun 28 09:32:34 <DocScrutinizer05> <kou_2> Hey, so turns out that udev breaks if a btrfs balance is paused before rebooting - as in, it times out and waits for the balance to start up again before remounting so you get dropped into emergency shell
Jun 28 09:34:13 <Wizzup> why would udev do that...
Jun 28 09:34:59 <KotCzarny> because, who knows, maybe some not-well-tested distro?
Jun 28 09:36:09 <DocScrutinizer05> I been mentioned in devuan context
Jun 28 09:36:42 <KotCzarny> maybe btrfs refuses to mount before unpausing
Jun 28 09:36:50 <DocScrutinizer05> but... why would udev _not_ do that?
Jun 28 09:36:58 <KotCzarny> disclaimer: never used btrfs
Jun 28 09:38:04 <DocScrutinizer05> btrfs calance is a critical atomic procedure I'd guess
Jun 28 09:38:11 <DocScrutinizer05> balance*
Jun 28 09:38:20 <DocScrutinizer05> sth about btrees afaik
Jun 28 09:42:44 <DocScrutinizer05> oops sorry, not devuan, suse context
Jun 28 09:44:35 <DocScrutinizer05> so you'd assume the fs they have as root default for their enterprise product should be damn well tested, at least when compared to the average community driven linux
Jun 28 10:07:12 <Wizzup> I can't imagine why this would be an issue
Jun 28 10:07:19 <Wizzup> or why udev would test for this 
Jun 28 10:07:28 <Wizzup> I've done this many times with btrfs and eudev anyway
Jun 28 10:36:51 <DocScrutinizer05> I can imagine why it wou,kd be an issue, when the fs was in an inconsistent state so system can't mount rootfs
Jun 28 10:37:16 <DocScrutinizer05> but I never tested any of this, so I don't support any notion on it
Jun 28 10:37:21 <KotCzarny> let's blame it on the cluelessness
Jun 28 10:37:30 <KotCzarny> and move on
Jun 28 10:37:31 <DocScrutinizer05> possible
Jun 28 10:38:44 <Maxdamantus> The overall balance isn't atomic, but I think the reallocation of each block is.
Jun 28 10:39:21 <Maxdamantus> actually, I don't exactly "think" that, but it seems likely that it would be.
Jun 28 10:39:51 <Maxdamantus> the overall thing certainly isn't though, since it's just reallocating a bunch of chunks.
Jun 28 10:39:59 <Maxdamantus> (should have said "chunk" before instead of "block")
Jun 28 10:42:31 <Maxdamantus> note: a "balance" in btrfs involves rewriting a number of chunks storing the data, usually to either uniformly distribute the chunks across devices, or to change to different "raid" levels.
Jun 28 10:42:49 <Maxdamantus> and unless you apply a filter, it involves rewriting the entire filesystem.
Jun 28 10:42:59 <KotCzarny> cute little operation
Jun 28 10:43:09 <KotCzarny> even windoze handled defrag better
Jun 28 10:43:12 <Maxdamantus> It's a background thing.
Jun 28 10:43:19 <Maxdamantus> It shouldn't normally interrupt anything.
Jun 28 10:43:29 <Maxdamantus> dunno what that person's initramfs is doing.
Jun 28 10:44:06 <Maxdamantus> Things shouldn't normally care about the balance. Normally if you shut down or crash during a balance, it will just continue when you mount it again.
Jun 28 10:45:23 <Maxdamantus> but it's not critical that it continue .. you can always just cancel a balance if you want to.
Jun 28 10:46:02 <KotCzarny> for some reason it had to do something important and wasnt allowed to continue, which resulted in unmountable fs
Jun 28 10:46:59 <Maxdamantus> If it's unmountable at a kernel level, you should almost certainly get at least some feedback in the kernel log.
Jun 28 10:47:29 <Maxdamantus> It shouldn't be unmountable just because a balance was in progress/paused.
Jun 28 10:47:53 <KotCzarny> s/sunmountable/mountable/
Jun 28 10:48:22 <KotCzarny> he might have some serious problem apart from that pause
Jun 28 10:51:04 <Maxdamantus> on a couple of occasions I've had to manually zero the log before being able to mount (which supposedly means potentially losing up to the last 30 seconds or so of writes), but I don't think I've done that in the last couple of years, so presumably they do that automatically now in the kernel, or they've just fixed some of the issues that led to an unusable log.
Jun 28 10:51:38 <Maxdamantus> afaik that used to be a typical reason for not being able to mount.
Jun 28 11:35:01 <Maxdamantus> also regarding defrag, balance doesn't help with fragmentation.
Jun 28 11:35:01 <KotCzarny> yeah, i was just joking on it
Jun 28 11:35:01 <Maxdamantus> since it just involves copying blocks across, which are usually 1GiB big.
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 28 11:35:20 2018
Jun 28 17:58:55 <sicelo> mmm, my Thinkpad X40 is begging for retirement. in addition to all USB ports dead, since yesterday sound isn't working
Jun 28 17:59:15 <KotCzarny> poor thing..
Jun 28 17:59:21 <KotCzarny> mine is still rolling strong
Jun 28 17:59:30 <KotCzarny> only plastic piece in one usb port broken
Jun 28 17:59:40 <KotCzarny> otherwise 100% functional, useful and kickin ass!
Jun 28 17:59:53 <KotCzarny> i got it 480gb ssd drive recently
Jun 28 18:00:06 <KotCzarny> so now it has 32gb ssd for os and 480gb for data
Jun 28 18:00:44 <sicelo> the problem with sound seems to be hardware, i guess, since linux picks up sound card but pulseaudio and alsa both can't produce any sound at all
Jun 28 18:00:59 <KotCzarny> try dos/windoze?
Jun 28 18:01:01 <sicelo> wowo @ 480GB SSD. mine has paltry 60GB 
Jun 28 18:01:18 <KotCzarny> the 480gb one was on the sale, 80usd with free shipping
Jun 28 18:01:42 <KotCzarny> sh*tty chinese noname 3d nand tlc, but hey, it can hold a COPY of my data just fine
Jun 28 18:02:00 <sicelo> dunno if i'm up to the task of finding windows for the thing, as well as figure out how to boot it
Jun 28 18:02:25 <KotCzarny> https://www.geekbuying.com/item/Tigo-S300-480GB-Solid-State-Drive-2-5-Inch-SSD-Hard-Disk-398106.html
Jun 28 18:02:26 <KotCzarny> this one
Jun 28 18:02:28 <sicelo> mmm, unless i tftp boot it.
Jun 28 18:03:37 <sicelo> mine (X40) was given to me back in July 2016. the usb ports were already dead (evidently common x40 issue), and lid switch non-working
Jun 28 18:04:02 <sicelo> but it's been a nice little machine thus far :)
Jun 28 18:04:20 <KotCzarny> it still is
Jun 28 18:04:38 <sicelo> oh and bt, IR all non-working when i got it
Jun 28 18:04:38 <KotCzarny> same as n900, oldie, but goldie
Jun 28 18:04:53 <KotCzarny> maybe someone b0rked the firmware?
Jun 28 18:05:05 <KotCzarny> hard to imagine ir breaking 
Jun 28 18:05:24 <KotCzarny> bt is a tiny addon on a modem card
Jun 28 18:05:43 <sicelo> i bought chinese pc card for usb, but it has never worked too well. works well only 2% of the time haha
Jun 28 18:07:01 <sicelo> looks like the laptop was once opened ... i have often wondered if there aren't loose connections inside or something (even for lid switch). just never got around to opening it to check. i probably might now
Jun 28 18:08:11 <sicelo> a couple of months ago i started having odd issue with MMC Card Reader - only reads card if i keep it pushed in :(
Jun 28 18:09:08 <sicelo> and batteries are finished too (lasting max 30 minutes now).
Jun 28 18:09:38 <sicelo> i can get battery ... but with the other issues, not sure if it's worth it
Jun 28 18:10:07 <sicelo> maybe if i open it, i can get bt & IR working :)
Jun 28 18:10:44 <KotCzarny> 30 minutes is a lot
Jun 28 18:10:50 <KotCzarny> my t500 has 30seconds
Jun 28 18:10:51 <KotCzarny> ;)
Jun 28 18:10:59 <sicelo> haha
Jun 28 18:11:02 <KotCzarny> but still enough for power surges so i dont change it
Jun 28 18:11:17 <KotCzarny> and if i'm quick enough i can change rooms
Jun 28 18:12:34 <sicelo> oh and hibernation doesn't work anymore ... either a kernel or driver issue .. couldn't really figure it out (kernel 3.16 hibernates, but not 4.x)
Jun 28 18:12:36 <KotCzarny> also, docking station is very nice for x40, makes all the cables on the back instead of sides
Jun 28 18:12:53 <KotCzarny> and i can put 2nd hdd in (even sata with proper ultrabay adapter)
Jun 28 18:13:28 <sicelo> i've been thinking about getting either an X230 or T430 to replace the X40
Jun 28 18:14:05 <KotCzarny> thinkpads after lenove took over arent the same quality (it got worse with every series)
Jun 28 18:14:15 <KotCzarny> still, nice to have core i5 cpu
Jun 28 18:15:23 <sicelo> their price rnge here can just about match the size of my wallet. although recently i see the X250/T450 is good too (besided chiclet keyboard). it's slightly above what i am able to pay, but might be worth it in the long run
Jun 28 18:16:12 * sicelo wishes he didn't have this X40 as a first laptop haha 
Jun 28 18:16:23 <KotCzarny> ;)
Jun 28 18:16:28 <sicelo> ruined me, now i don't think i can use anything else
Jun 28 18:16:38 <KotCzarny> love the kb
Jun 28 18:16:43 <KotCzarny> love the build quality
Jun 28 18:16:48 <KotCzarny> love the features
Jun 28 18:16:50 <sicelo> the trackpoint!! absolutely love it, and kb, yes indeed
Jun 28 18:16:57 <KotCzarny> yup, clit love too
Jun 28 18:17:27 <KotCzarny> btw. want me to find and send you x40 mobo?
Jun 28 18:18:28 <sicelo> that would be awesome, if it can work out
Jun 28 18:18:47 <sicelo> :)
Jun 28 18:21:09 <sicelo> it's when it comes to computing that i wish i was living in Europe
Jun 28 18:21:20 <KotCzarny> usa is better for that
Jun 28 18:21:24 <KotCzarny> and now china
Jun 28 18:22:06 <sicelo> here even simple mobile data plan will set you back quite a bit of money
Jun 28 18:22:49 <Vajb> sicelo: try ultimate boot cd with that laptop. There might be soundcard tests too
Jun 28 18:23:13 <sicelo> no one complains that manufacturers don't provide security updates, because no one wants to download them anyway :p
Jun 28 18:23:17 <Vajb> at least it has wide amount of hw tests available
Jun 28 18:24:08 <sicelo> Vajb: thanks. will look at it. hope i can booth that over tftp. it's the only way i can boot anything on it, unless i wipe the hdd maybe
Jun 28 18:25:07 <sicelo> although i am not ver hopefully. sound has been working all along. i can't fthom why it would stop suddenly.
Jun 28 18:25:09 <Vajb> ah it doesn't have cd rom drive...
Jun 28 18:25:20 <KotCzarny> :>
Jun 28 18:25:31 <KotCzarny> and usb fried
Jun 28 18:25:39 <KotCzarny> but iso can be booted from grub
Jun 28 18:25:56 <sicelo> yeah. it's like a bootlooping N900 with broken USb :p
Jun 28 18:26:20 <Vajb> i wouldn't touch grub....
Jun 28 18:26:28 <KotCzarny> grub1 is simple and nice
Jun 28 18:26:44 <Vajb> i fiddled with it few days and decided to start fresh
Jun 28 18:26:50 <sicelo> my debian install has grub 2
Jun 28 18:26:54 <KotCzarny> again, try grub1
Jun 28 18:27:06 <Vajb> i think it was grub 2 too
Jun 28 18:27:25 <KotCzarny> grub1 has a very simple config 
Jun 28 18:27:33 <sicelo> i will do so
Jun 28 18:28:40 <KotCzarny> grub2 probably can boot iso too, but might require different config
Jun 28 18:30:26 <sicelo> a quick search does show possible configs. i'll download UB cd tomorrow and try
Jun 28 19:44:03 <bleb> is this a good place to talk about community-developed phones like chen's thing
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jun 29 03:00:00 2018