**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 09 03:00:01 2018
Dec 09 17:53:51 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: ping
Dec 09 17:53:53 <spinal_> ping
Dec 09 17:54:02 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: ping
Dec 09 17:54:23 <DocScrutinizer05> ?
Dec 09 17:54:52 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: have a coule of minutes?
Dec 09 17:55:00 <freemangordon> in regards of bq chip
Dec 09 17:55:04 <DocScrutinizer05> a few
Dec 09 17:55:46 <DocScrutinizer05> shoot
Dec 09 17:56:07 <freemangordon> while working on lested, one of the devs said that maybe the sense resistor value used to do the calculations of current, capacity etc in the kernel driver is wrong
Dec 09 17:56:11 <freemangordon> *leste
Dec 09 17:56:37 <DocScrutinizer05> it shouldn't be hardcoded anyway
Dec 09 17:56:50 <freemangordon> why?
Dec 09 17:56:56 <DocScrutinizer05> 20 and 22 milli both make sense
Dec 09 17:57:14 <DocScrutinizer05> why? because the driver is opretty generic
Dec 09 17:57:39 <freemangordon> but he said that if 30 is used, the reported value for design capacity on n900 starts making sense
Dec 09 17:58:17 <freemangordon> instead of > 2000 mAh it becomes closer to 1350 or somesuch
Dec 09 17:58:18 <DocScrutinizer05> you don't want drivers named bq27xxx-10.ko bq27xxx-20.ko etc
Dec 09 17:58:55 <spinal_> May paste little fragment from datasheet?
Dec 09 17:59:24 <freemangordon> sure, now the question is - did anyone ever measured the current withdrawn from the battery and compared it with what is reported?
Dec 09 17:59:25 <DocScrutinizer05> well, this shows that design capacity as flashed to bq27299 is incorrect
Dec 09 17:59:39 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, I did
Dec 09 18:00:03 <freemangordon> yep, my vague memories told me so :)
Dec 09 18:00:12 <freemangordon> spinal_: see ^^^
Dec 09 18:00:14 <spinal_> EEPROM Data Registers (EE_DATA) — Address 0x76 — 0x7F
Dec 09 18:00:15 <spinal_> The EEPROM data registers contain information vital to the performance of the device. These registers are to be
Dec 09 18:00:15 <spinal_> programmed during pack manufacturing to allow flexibility in the design values of the battery to be monitored.
Dec 09 18:00:15 <spinal_> The EEPROM data registers are listed in Table 2. Detailed descriptions of what should be programmed follow.
Dec 09 18:00:15 <spinal_> See the Programming the EEPROM section for detailed information on writing the values to EEPROM.
Dec 09 18:00:29 <spinal_> 0x76 ILMD Initial last measured discharge high byte
Dec 09 18:00:52 <freemangordon> if reported current value is correct, then sense resistor value MUST be correct as well
Dec 09 18:00:53 <spinal_> that's not a big deal for Nokia just to program right values to bq27200
Dec 09 18:01:21 <freemangordon> and by correct I mean - matches the measured value
Dec 09 18:01:23 <spinal_> we can only measure USB current when charging the phone
Dec 09 18:01:28 <freemangordon> no
Dec 09 18:01:44 <freemangordon> you can measure the current directly on battery terminals
Dec 09 18:01:58 <spinal_> you are right
Dec 09 18:02:10 <spinal_> need to disconnect battery and connect it by wires
Dec 09 18:02:12 <spinal_> i'll do it
Dec 09 18:02:18 <freemangordon> and thats what DocScrutinizer05 did back then iirc
Dec 09 18:02:28 <freemangordon> spinal_: please do
Dec 09 18:02:56 <freemangordon> that would definitely show if RS value is correct
Dec 09 18:03:02 <DocScrutinizer05> >><spinal_> that's not a big deal for Nokia just to program right values to bq27200<< however they didn't
Dec 09 18:03:33 <spinal_> i bet they did
Dec 09 18:03:50 <freemangordon> ok, measure the current and we'll see
Dec 09 18:04:02 <spinal_> give me 10-15 minutes
Dec 09 18:04:05 <freemangordon> sure
Dec 09 18:04:09 <freemangordon> no hurry :)
Dec 09 18:04:31 <freemangordon> I'll be glad if you;re right
Dec 09 18:04:33 <DocScrutinizer05> grecheck LMD vs writing on your battery. When it's vorrect odds are you got right RS, when it's 50% off then you may conclude 30 is not a good value and you better use 20
Dec 09 18:04:48 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: ^^^
Dec 09 18:05:34 <DocScrutinizer05> then you also can check RS easily between minus of battery connector and GND e.g. on USB
Dec 09 18:05:35 <freemangordon> yes, but I guess spinal_ has an old battery with unknown capacity
Dec 09 18:06:04 <DocScrutinizer05> so what?
Dec 09 18:06:09 <DocScrutinizer05> 20 milliohms
Dec 09 18:06:14 <freemangordon> :)
Dec 09 18:06:17 <DocScrutinizer05> NOT hardcoded
Dec 09 18:06:21 <freemangordon> yeah
Dec 09 18:06:28 <freemangordon> that's another issue
Dec 09 18:06:42 <freemangordon> the question now is whether 20 is the correct value for n900
Dec 09 18:06:53 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, tis
Dec 09 18:06:55 <freemangordon> atherwise for sure it should not be hardcoded
Dec 09 18:08:08 <freemangordon> DocScrutinizer05: thanks a lot!
Dec 09 18:08:12 <DocScrutinizer05> yw
Dec 09 18:08:38 <DocScrutinizer05> my own fault, I came up with this 30mR a 7 years ago ;-OP
Dec 09 18:09:00 <freemangordon> spinal_: ^^^ ;)
Dec 09 18:09:13 <DocScrutinizer05> but... >><spinal_> that's not a big deal for Nokia just to program right values to bq27200<< however they didn't
Dec 09 18:22:03 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/patches_n_tools/bq27k.py
Dec 09 18:23:36 <DocScrutinizer05> original:  http://maemo.cloud-7.de/maemo5/usr/local/sbin/bq27200.sh
Dec 09 18:24:15 <DocScrutinizer05> note the obsolete "30" in comment
Dec 09 18:36:34 <spinal_> hm
Dec 09 18:36:41 <spinal_> do I need to connect middle terminal too?
Dec 09 18:36:46 <spinal_> that's gonna be hard
Dec 09 18:37:15 <spinal_> doesn't start with just 2 terminals connected
Dec 09 18:37:42 <DocScrutinizer05> http://termbin.com/ni58
Dec 09 18:38:24 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, BSI disconnect causes emergency shutdown
Dec 09 18:39:57 <spinal_> freemangordon, i thought....
Dec 09 18:40:05 <spinal_> how do you propose to measure the current?
Dec 09 18:40:27 <spinal_> with ampermeter
Dec 09 18:40:31 <spinal_> ammeter
Dec 09 18:40:32 <freemangordon> yes
Dec 09 18:40:34 <spinal_> how?
Dec 09 18:40:48 <spinal_> if I connect all wires and measure it when the phone is on
Dec 09 18:40:52 <spinal_> what value should i get?
Dec 09 18:41:08 <spinal_> the value going to the battery exclusively or to battery + working device?
Dec 09 18:41:13 <freemangordon> the same value that is reported by bq for current
Dec 09 18:41:17 <spinal_> really?
Dec 09 18:41:19 <spinal_> i
Dec 09 18:41:22 <freemangordon> battery + working device
Dec 09 18:41:43 <spinal_> the value reported by the kernel is the current going from/to the battery
Dec 09 18:41:56 <freemangordon> spinal_: I still think LMD is way easier
Dec 09 18:42:01 <freemangordon> yes
Dec 09 18:42:03 <spinal_> that's why you get message "The device consumes more memory than it gets from charge"
Dec 09 18:42:28 <freemangordon> not, this is nother story
Dec 09 18:42:39 <spinal_> ah, sorry, my mistake you're right
Dec 09 18:42:40 <freemangordon> you should not connect charger/usb when measuring
Dec 09 18:42:48 <spinal_> yep
Dec 09 18:43:01 <spinal_> i still thinking how to connect all terminals without soldering :p
Dec 09 18:44:08 <spinal_> seems i need more time
Dec 09 18:44:20 <DocScrutinizer05> you shouldn't, it's pretty pointless and honestly I only was able to do wuth a frabkenstein battery with wires retrofitted to protection circuit
Dec 09 18:44:47 <DocScrutinizer05> you shouldn't, it's pretty pointless and honestly I only was able to do with a frankenstein battery with wires retrofitted to protection circuit
Dec 09 18:45:19 <freemangordon> spinal_: listen to what doc says, he knows what he is talking about. usually :p
Dec 09 18:45:27 <freemangordon> try with LMD
Dec 09 18:45:28 <DocScrutinizer05> measure resustance between battery connector - and device GND
Dec 09 18:45:43 <freemangordon> why is that?
Dec 09 18:45:50 <freemangordon> RS is serial to the batteru
Dec 09 18:45:52 <DocScrutinizer05> or simply check LMD and compare to what you get when charging battery externally
Dec 09 18:45:54 <freemangordon> *battery
Dec 09 18:46:17 <DocScrutinizer05> hmm?
Dec 09 18:46:28 <DocScrutinizer05> RS is in battery minus
Dec 09 18:46:32 <spinal_> 20mOhm is too little to measure it accurately anyway
Dec 09 18:49:02 <spinal_> so, i only can use soldering, no other options
Dec 09 18:49:44 <DocScrutinizer05> you ruin your device by soldering battery contacts
Dec 09 18:50:19 <DocScrutinizer05> must not have tin/lead plating which as contact problems 
Dec 09 18:50:26 <DocScrutinizer05> has*
Dec 09 18:50:42 <spinal_> yep
Dec 09 18:51:03 <spinal_> so I will now measure current with simple USB and compare to what driver show
Dec 09 18:51:06 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe believe Nokia?
Dec 09 18:51:36 <DocScrutinizer05> while they never disclosed the RS balue, they use 20m in BME
Dec 09 18:52:13 <DocScrutinizer05> afaik
Dec 09 18:53:16 <DocScrutinizer05> and a new BL-5J(?) battery has a LMD of 1320 with RS=22
Dec 09 18:53:36 <DocScrutinizer05> 1320 to 1340
Dec 09 18:55:44 <DocScrutinizer05> or believe me, I probed on disassembled device
Dec 09 18:56:46 <ShadowJK> 20mR is the correct nominal value. the components (there are two) don't seem that accurate from device to device, I've seen between 21 and 23 in real life devices
Dec 09 18:56:55 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm not sure Nokia programmed *anything* to BQ EEPROM
Dec 09 18:57:45 <DocScrutinizer05> yeah, or you believe ShadowJK who knows his shit
Dec 09 18:58:13 <spinal_> i need a way to connect to battery terminals without soldering and short circuit...
Dec 09 18:58:50 <spinal_> probably i need to use paper for isolation and something to hold wires
Dec 09 18:58:53 <DocScrutinizer05> funny enough I used exactly same rationale for argumenting why 30m might be more correct, a decade ago
Dec 09 18:59:13 <spinal_> it's correct
Dec 09 18:59:41 <ShadowJK> It's actuall 2pcs 10mR connected in series. One of the Nokia-proprietary chips tap off one of the sense resistors, and bq chip taps off of both.
Dec 09 18:59:55 <DocScrutinizer05> ^^^
Dec 09 19:00:07 <spinal_> so probably i gonna do it later, need to think
Dec 09 19:00:16 <ShadowJK> Did anyone ever figure out how it all got put together in bme? Because bme sure as hell never cased for the coloumb counting in bq
Dec 09 19:01:26 <spinal_> i was never satisfied how it shows the battery percentage
Dec 09 19:01:48 <spinal_> it dropped occasionally very fast
Dec 09 19:02:05 <ShadowJK> I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere in the bme code there was remains of dealing with nicad
Dec 09 19:02:19 <spinal_> so I think they just didn't have the time to use all the power bq27200 provides
Dec 09 19:02:56 <spinal_> i think they just relied on voltage for measurements 
Dec 09 19:03:39 <DocScrutinizer05> ShadowJK: you're right, there is
Dec 09 19:03:42 <spinal_> I hope I will measure the current tomorrow, need more time
Dec 09 19:03:49 <DocScrutinizer05> VME is cargop cult
Dec 09 19:03:55 <DocScrutinizer05> BME*
Dec 09 19:04:28 <DocScrutinizer05> spinal_: have fun. Please do _not_ bither me with results
Dec 09 19:05:01 <spinal_> what is bither?
Dec 09 19:06:28 <ShadowJK> bother
Dec 09 19:08:11 <ShadowJK> It's not just the design capacity that is not set properly, it's also the voltage thresholds, the chip doesn't work properly in normal use because the device gets shut down before the voltage is low enough for bq27200 to update the current battery capacity
Dec 09 19:08:31 <DocScrutinizer05> ^^^
Dec 09 19:08:45 <DocScrutinizer05> it's just meant to prove current
Dec 09 19:08:51 <DocScrutinizer05> probe*
Dec 09 19:09:11 <DocScrutinizer05> and voltage
Dec 09 19:10:26 <ShadowJK> I wonder if the next iteration was more sane.. 
Dec 09 19:10:45 <ShadowJK> Because the previous N810 had just the nokie proprietary chip, N900 had both
Dec 09 19:11:52 <DocScrutinizer05> N810 had a proprietary chip? Thought it did mere TI OMAP companion chip charging
Dec 09 19:12:08 <DocScrutinizer05> plus software
Dec 09 19:12:22 <freemangordon> ShadowJK: you've measured RS directly on the board?
Dec 09 19:13:38 <ShadowJK> DocScrutinizer05, no N810 was fully compliant with nokia 2mm barrel charging spec (which shifted a large part of regulation to the powersupply)
Dec 09 19:13:43 <ShadowJK> freemangordon, no
Dec 09 19:14:44 <DocScrutinizer05> ShadowJK: aaj yep
Dec 09 19:15:07 <DocScrutinizer05> freemangordon: I did
Dec 09 19:15:23 <freemangordon> ok
Dec 09 19:16:42 <ShadowJK> For a generic bq27200 driver, of course different device manufacturers will use different sense resistors
Dec 09 19:17:52 <DocScrutinizer05> though iirc the appnotes also have 20m
Dec 09 19:18:25 <freemangordon> right
Dec 09 19:18:50 <DocScrutinizer05> doesn't forbid any manuif using 10 or eveb up to 50, so no hardcoding of 20 without module parameter override
Dec 09 19:19:37 <DocScrutinizer05> this been all in my bq27xx.ko specs :-/
Dec 09 19:19:38 <freemangordon> it is DTS now, module parameters are forbidden ;)
Dec 09 19:19:51 <DocScrutinizer05> WUT??
Dec 09 19:20:17 <DocScrutinizer05> fsck DTS
Dec 09 19:20:34 <DocScrutinizer05> the DTS designers had no idea how hw works
Dec 09 19:21:46 <DocScrutinizer05> actually hardcoding 20 would be exactly what I'd expect from DTS devils
Dec 09 19:22:32 <DocScrutinizer05> cpmpletely ignoring the >>doesn't forbid any manuf using 10 or even up to 50<< reality
Dec 09 19:22:34 <freemangordon> actually it is Nokia that hardcoded it back then
Dec 09 19:22:46 <freemangordon> before DTS times
Dec 09 19:23:02 <freemangordon> and seems nobody bothered to make it variable
Dec 09 19:23:11 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, since nokia followed my fav approach of kernel tailored for device
Dec 09 19:23:39 <Wizzup> which also meant that it was hard to upstream ;) 
Dec 09 19:23:59 <DocScrutinizer05> err, nokia never had any bq27xx module
Dec 09 19:24:24 <DocScrutinizer05> nokia had NME
Dec 09 19:24:28 <DocScrutinizer05> BME*
Dec 09 19:24:37 <DocScrutinizer05> which obviously never goes upstream
Dec 09 19:25:29 <DocScrutinizer05> maybe they gad sth similar in N9
Dec 09 19:26:16 <DocScrutinizer05> though N9 has no bq27200/bq27000
Dec 09 19:35:31 <DocScrutinizer05> PT: why does a command that works fine under user account try and fail to write to /var/run/upslog.pid and still work?  http://termbin.com/hps8
Dec 09 19:35:37 <DocScrutinizer05> OT even
Dec 09 19:36:54 <DocScrutinizer05> MEH!!  UPSLOG(8)
Dec 09 19:37:04 <DocScrutinizer05> WHY???
Dec 09 19:42:41 <DocScrutinizer05> is /bar/run even supposed to not be world readable, with only owner being able to delete own pid file?
Dec 09 19:43:05 <DocScrutinizer05> would make more sense to me
Dec 09 19:44:07 <DocScrutinizer05> actually upsmon allows     -u username            If started as root, upsmon will setuid(2) to the user id associated with username for security.
Dec 09 19:44:37 <DocScrutinizer05> so how would it inlink own pid file after that?
Dec 09 19:44:43 <DocScrutinizer05> unlink*
Dec 09 19:45:16 <DocScrutinizer05> and who needs such pid file anyway, and for what?
Dec 09 20:44:17 <Maxdamantus> /scroll end
Dec 09 21:29:12 <sicelo> 20:58 < spinal_> i need a way to connect to battery terminals without soldering and short circuit...  << http://n900.elektranox.org/serial-adapter.html  .. one neat way by Sebastian reichel
Dec 09 21:29:50 <Wizzup> sicelo: he's not here anymore, try other chan
Dec 09 21:30:54 <sicelo> thanks :)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 10 03:00:00 2018