**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Mar 25 03:00:06 2019
Mar 25 11:31:09 <DocScrutinizer05> wikiwide: (or whatever nick you're just using ;-P) for supercaps polarity is of vital relevance
Mar 25 11:33:43 <DocScrutinizer05> if the mechanical dimensions fit, https://www.digikey.de/product-detail/en/elna-america/DSK-3R3H703T414-HRL/604-1148-1-ND/2171203 looks perfect for bupbat
Mar 25 11:37:45 <DocScrutinizer05> (polarity) so make damn sure you get the correct variant of component: *HR or *HL
Mar 25 11:43:48 <DocScrutinizer05> for soldering: first plate the PCB pads and the component pins' downsides with a moderately thin layer of solder, add high quality no-clean SMD flux, then place component on PCB and reflow-solder with quite hot soldering iron (I suggest >400°C) first the smaller pin, then the larger, by pressing soldering iron tip wetted with some solder on top of the component pin metal area
Mar 25 11:44:52 <DocScrutinizer05> the reflow process to mount the component should not take longer than 2 to 3 seconds max
Mar 25 11:45:51 <DocScrutinizer05> overheating the component will cause permanent damage resulting in loss of capacitance and probably leakage
Mar 25 11:46:57 <DocScrutinizer05> it's a tad counter-intuitive but the hotter the soldering iron, the less risk to overheat the component on reflow to mount to PCB
Mar 25 11:49:06 <DocScrutinizer05> brolin_empey: don't you install a completely fresh OS on any new computer you get, anyway?
Mar 25 12:01:04 <KotCzarny> doc, no, why? unless its windoze
Mar 25 12:17:13 <DocScrutinizer05> I never feel confidence in an installation I didn't do myself
Mar 25 12:17:34 <KotCzarny> i have one slack install that i just clone if i get new device
Mar 25 12:17:49 <DocScrutinizer05> and actually it's way easier to do a full fresh install than any update and cleaning -out
Mar 25 13:12:57 <DocScrutinizer05> KotCzarny: as I understand it, cloning an installation isn't always the optimal way to bring up a new hw platform, particularly when it differs significantly in hw features from the donor platform. You might miss out on relevant adjustments made during a regular installation process, like detecting which hw driver kernel modules are needed which which particular tweaks passed tot hem via parameters etc
Mar 25 13:13:59 <DocScrutinizer05> extreme example: when the CPU architecture differs completely, like intel -> ARM. No dice a cloned system would work
Mar 25 13:14:52 <sixwheeledbeast> I generally just rip my /home and dump that in there after fresh start.
Mar 25 13:15:03 <DocScrutinizer05> on minor differences the target still may work but in a quite sub-optimal way in some aspects
Mar 25 13:31:52 <DocScrutinizer05> sixwheeledbeast: yeah, that's probably the canonical way
Mar 25 13:33:26 <DocScrutinizer05> though even that sometimes causes problems when the desktop changed in some way
Mar 25 13:36:09 <DocScrutinizer05> often updates run conversion scripts e.g. moving stuff from ~/.kde to ~/.local/kde
Mar 25 13:36:58 <KotCzarny> sure, compile new kernel then
Mar 25 13:37:50 <DocScrutinizer05> actually ~/.local/share/kde5/
Mar 25 13:38:11 <DocScrutinizer05> and a few other new locations
Mar 25 13:38:24 <KotCzarny> i've tried different wm's, and i came to conclusion that all i need is solved by fluxbox, never looked back
Mar 25 13:38:29 <DocScrutinizer05> sucks when that happens
Mar 25 13:46:51 <DocScrutinizer05> and I admit I've yet to find a solution to that problem. Maybe there exists one involving special command parameters to apt-get, or something like `source /var/apt/postinstall/*` or somesuch
Mar 25 14:12:56 <sixwheeledbeast> I have not experienced any of those issues with gnome flavour DE's
Mar 25 14:23:25 <DocScrutinizer05> completely unrelated: http://maemo.cloud-7.de/share-service/candle_with_pure_O2.mp4
Mar 25 14:23:44 <DocScrutinizer05> really wow
Mar 25 14:24:20 <DocScrutinizer05> camera can't really catch it. The complete wax surface starts burning
Mar 25 14:25:38 <DocScrutinizer05> the "feed" is from a straw in a plastic bag I filled from a O2 generator
Mar 25 17:08:00 <bencoh> do we have a copy of maemo-optify git repository somewhere?
Mar 25 17:08:10 <bencoh> it was hosted on gitorious, but ....
Mar 25 17:52:27 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: That video is neat but would be much better if the camera was held still. ;-)
Mar 25 17:52:27 <brolin_empey> “don't you install a completely fresh OS on any new computer you get, anyway?”
Mar 25 17:52:27 <brolin_empey> It depends upon the context/application/use case.  One of the benefits of GNU+Linux over Windows is ease of moving an OS installation to a different hardware configuration but Windows seems to be improving in this ability since the Windows NT 6.x era.  I often clone a bootable drive to continue using it in a different computer, often with a different hardware configuration.  Sometimes I use a clone of a clone (of a clone).  In this case, I think this Ubuntu 
Mar 25 17:52:27 <brolin_empey> installation started with 8.04.x LTS when it was current, which means this same OS installation has been in use for over a decade by now so it would be a huge chore to manually recreate the same configuration if I started over with a new OS installation.  I want to use a computer to do things I enjoy or to get things done, not to spend weeks or even months on the same old chores over and over, such as starting over with a new OS installation.  Another 
Mar 25 17:52:27 <brolin_empey> advantage of GNU+Linux over Windows is that upgrading the OS in place to a newer release is usable feasible.  Theoretically, a Windows installation can be upgraded in place to a newer release as long as you continue using the same architecture but, in practice, I have never had this succeed.
Mar 25 17:54:41 <brolin_empey> s/usable feasible/usually feasible/
Mar 25 17:54:41 <infobot> brolin_empey meant: advantage of GNU+Linux over Windows is that upgrading the OS in place to a newer release is usually feasible.  Theoretically, a Windows installation can be upgraded in place to a newer release as long as you continue using the same architecture but, in pr...
Mar 25 18:01:14 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: Also, I think the computer architecture has to be the same at least in some cases, not only the processor architecture.  For example, and yes it is a mostly historical example by now, I do not know if the same m68k GNU+Linux installation can be used on both an Amiga and a Macintosh or some Atari computer or other computer using an m68k processor because the computer architecture is significantly different even if it uses the same processor.
Mar 25 18:07:09 <brolin_empey> As another historical example, both the PlayStation 2 and SGI workstations use some form of the MIPS architecture and both can run Linux but I do not know if the same Linux installation can work on both of them.
Mar 25 18:12:07 <brolin_empey> I guess in some cases you may be able to use the same userspace or at least part of the same userspace even if you need different kernels, boot loaders, firmware, and so on for the different computer architectures.
Mar 25 18:17:12 <brolin_empey> Is it even feasible to use the same Linux kernel on different brands of the same ARM version, such as both the Qualcomm Snapdragon and Samsung Exynos variants of an ARMv7 computer from Samsung, such as the Galaxy Note 3?
Mar 25 18:22:46 <brolin_empey> Oh, NeXT and Sun originally used m68k too.  There used to be lots of different computer architectures using the same processor architecture, such as with the 6502 and m68k processor families.
Mar 25 18:39:50 <DocScrutinizer05> bencoh: it's just a few scripts afaik
Mar 25 18:40:28 <DocScrutinizer05> bencoh: and iirc it been community-provided anyway
Mar 25 18:42:42 <DocScrutinizer05> brolin_empey: >>...not to spend weeks or even months on the same old chores over and over,<< yeah, I try coping with this by more and more scripting of my OS customization
Mar 25 18:46:40 <DocScrutinizer05> brolin_empey: actually I'm pretty much in a similar situation like you, just coming from opposite extreme, where I had to realize a lot of my e.g. /etc/* customizations like for init jobs starting my "proprietary" stuff not only didn't magically appear in a new OS installation but actuaööy it wasn't even possible to just copy them from my old system since damn systemd messed up stuff completely
Mar 25 19:00:42 <sixwheeledbeast> bencoh: I don't see maemo-optify https://web.archive.org/web/20130514233332/http://gitorious.org/community-ssu
Mar 25 19:04:17 <sixwheeledbeast> bencoh: https://web.archive.org/web/20120423141006/http://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify maybe helpful?
Mar 25 19:35:52 <DocScrutinizer05> wow, even perl:  https://web.archive.org/web/20110817091119/http://maemo.gitorious.org/maemo-af/maemo-optify/blobs/master/maemo-optify
Mar 25 19:38:57 <DocScrutinizer05> anyway
Mar 25 19:39:03 <DocScrutinizer05> ~optification
Mar 25 19:39:04 <infobot> optification is a inventive duct tape workaround to reclaim space in fs root, done due to the fact the systeminit *and* partitioning is FUBAR,  http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Packaging,_Deploying_and_Distributing/Installing_under_opt_and_MyDocs, or ""OMG - I wish they looked into FHS and moved /usr to eMMC"", http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2 bullet1,2 and fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE16 dot3"
Mar 25 19:40:05 <DocScrutinizer05> my very own take on optification ^^^
Mar 25 19:42:01 <DocScrutinizer05> funny enough systemd / freedesktop.org ran into a similar "problem" and solved it by the most idiotic and and ignorant way they could come up with: declaring /usr as obsolete and moving it to root /, the unifying it with /(s)bin
Mar 25 19:42:37 <DocScrutinizer05> theN
Mar 25 19:43:12 <KotCzarny> cool beans
Mar 25 19:43:31 <KotCzarny> and there are people saying 'systemd is ok because distros use it'
Mar 25 19:43:49 <KotCzarny> which means, distro maintainers are.. well..
Mar 25 19:55:43 <DocScrutinizer05> 15 trillion flies can't be wrong - shit is delicious
Mar 25 20:01:09 <jrayhawk> why would you want a separate /usr these days
Mar 25 20:02:35 <KotCzarny> because it had an idea behind it
Mar 25 20:04:17 <jrayhawk> it has like three ideas behind it, all of which are fulfilled better by modern initramfses and now cause complication for distro maintainers and vendors
Mar 25 20:09:15 <KotCzarny> and now you will say they are fullfilled by systemd alone
Mar 25 20:09:36 <jrayhawk> AFAIK systemd isn't particularly relevant to initramfs
Mar 25 20:09:54 <jrayhawk> Maybe the udev component.
Mar 25 20:12:39 <bencoh> sixwheeledbeast: I eventually retrieved it from the repository source package(apt-get source), but thanks :)
Mar 25 20:13:30 <bencoh> what bothers me is that part of maemo-related git projects are no longer available along with their full git history
Mar 25 20:14:35 <bencoh> I vaguely recall someone dumped pretty much eveyrthing back then, though
Mar 25 20:32:14 <Maxdamantus> I just have maemo's root in /home
Mar 25 20:32:21 <Maxdamantus> so it's all on eMMC
Mar 25 20:49:19 <DocScrutinizer05> how's initramfs relevant for partition size?
Mar 25 21:13:24 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE18
Mar 25 21:16:39 <DocScrutinizer05> http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html#PURPOSE2  >> Rationale:    The primary concern used to balance these considerations, which favor placing many things on the root filesystem, is the goal of keeping root as small as reasonably possible. [...] <<
Mar 25 21:19:02 <DocScrutinizer05> Poetterings argument to ignore this: "who cares, there are no systems anymore that have less than $[whatever randomly picked ridiculous number, like 1GB] sized root partition"
Mar 25 21:20:41 <DocScrutinizer05> Poettering further: >>systems like embedded which might actually have a smaller root partition are simply not the target of systemd<<
Mar 25 21:22:55 <bencoh> at least those would be free of this horror
Mar 25 21:24:08 <DocScrutinizer05> he clearly says he simply doesn't care if a standard linux, which according to him (and alas de facto) now comes with systemd, can get installed on those embedded systems. Systemd is *only* caring about deslktop systems, actually not even laptops are getting tested for any problems introduced by systemd to their rather different usage patterns
Mar 25 21:25:48 <DocScrutinizer05> which resulted in a guy not being able to boot his laptop at restaurant since the WLAN was different to the one found at home
Mar 25 21:25:57 <bencoh> :D
Mar 25 21:29:06 <KotCzarny> they are not the target, yet, being cluelessly used by distros for everything
Mar 25 21:29:10 <KotCzarny> supah
Mar 25 21:29:20 <KotCzarny> lies.
Mar 25 21:35:05 <DocScrutinizer05> it's this mindset and attitude that makes me hate this guy, the attitude of re-arranging and restructuring large parts of the system core with a bulldozer in a totally careless way, leaving it to a hundreds of more skilled and experienced developers to pick up the pieces and fix the damage done to all the domains Mr Poettering was not interested in
Mar 25 21:42:06 <KotCzarny> and idiots all over the world quaffing that shit happily
Mar 25 21:42:26 <KotCzarny> 'because it's in distro's default\
Mar 25 21:44:44 <sicelo> spinal has made systemd version of Maemo Leste and reports faster bootup 
Mar 25 21:48:44 <brolin_empey> Should I open a still sealed can of tuna if its “best before” date is almost five years ago?
Mar 25 21:49:49 <KotCzarny> sicelo: sure, any numbers?
Mar 25 21:50:12 <KotCzarny> also, how many times do you boot your phone?
Mar 25 21:52:03 <sicelo> i never got to test it. 
Mar 25 22:00:51 <brolin_empey> A stationary/desktop computer may be used on/in a vehicle, which makes it a mobile computer in some sense, and a portable computer, such as a notebook computer, is often used mostly or even always in the same place, which makes it a stationary computer in practice.
Mar 25 22:06:41 <brolin_empey> I think I already asked a while ago but I did not receive an answer or I forgot the answer: why does the N900 have multiple flash memory parts instead of using only eMMC?
Mar 25 22:07:06 <DocScrutinizer05> "faster boot" is the least argument I could think of, for a init system. Maybe only overtrumped by "shorter init files"
Mar 25 22:07:31 <brolin_empey> I mean parts as in physical devices such as ICs on the motherboard.
Mar 25 22:08:16 <DocScrutinizer05> brolin_empey: the NAND on PoP/SoC is instantly available for boot. eMMC is not
Mar 25 22:10:42 <DocScrutinizer05> IOW your bootloader HAS TO go to nand (well, this is a massively simplified picture that actually isn't really true but nevertheless hives best large picture of the concept behind it)
Mar 25 22:12:05 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: OK but what about a computer design such as an ARM or x86 Chromebook that uses eMMC as far as I know?  Does it still have a separate flash memory part for booting?
Mar 25 22:13:29 <brolin_empey> I thought that some SoCs can boot directly from eMMC but I may be misremembering?
Mar 25 22:17:30 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: Linux is embedded in some products whose end users do not even know that they are actually booting a Linux computer when they power on the device.  In this case, it is desirable to have the cold boot time for the OS be as short as is feasible.
Mar 25 22:17:37 <DocScrutinizer05> brolin_empey: maemo evolved from 770 to N800/810 to finally N900, and from Bora to Chinook to D...iforgot. And a lot is legacy, you even can find a initfs partition on NAND which is completely unused
Mar 25 22:19:17 <DocScrutinizer05> for embedded with a need for ultra low boot time, you boot up a system image basically like resume from suspend2disk
Mar 25 22:19:49 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: Diablo.
Mar 25 22:20:02 <DocScrutinizer05> Diablo :-D Thanks!
Mar 25 22:23:16 <brolin_empey> Some computers, such as the Up Board, Latte Panda, and some notebook computers, now run Windows 10 from eMMC.  Do these computer still have a separate flash memory part for booting?  I have a Latte Panda and Up Board in my office.
Mar 25 22:31:43 <DocScrutinizer05> most boot from the one storage device they got, nowadays
Mar 25 22:38:22 <brolin_empey> I guess the computer boots the motherboard firmware from NVRAM then the motherboard firmware is able to boot an OS from the eMMC.  So, in a strict or literal sense, the computer still does not directly boot from the eMMC.
Mar 25 22:39:09 <DocScrutinizer05> re maemo with systemd, I doubt this has much in common with maemo then, since in maemo another system occupied cgroups and I'm pretty sure sharing them between systemd and the maemo version of cgroup management won't fly
Mar 25 22:39:30 <Wizzup> someone has most of leste working with systemd already
Mar 25 22:41:55 <DocScrutinizer05> let me guess which are the few negligible parts that are not working yet... Is audio management one of them? OOM another?
Mar 25 22:42:11 <DocScrutinizer05> and modem/dialer the third?
Mar 25 22:42:41 <Wizzup> none of those relate to init system at all
Mar 25 22:43:17 <Wizzup> modem works fine with openrc and systemd, oom is not relevant, audio management same, really
Mar 25 22:43:23 <DocScrutinizer05> and yet I guessed those
Mar 25 22:43:25 <Wizzup> but sure, you can cherry-pick closed parts ;) 
Mar 25 22:43:37 <Wizzup> closed source parts*
Mar 25 22:44:26 <Wizzup> I'm sure that the old browser also heavily depends on systemd and that's the reason it's not running ... not the fact that it's closed source, ancient, not worth bringing up in that form, etc
Mar 25 22:44:33 <Wizzup> heavily depends on upstart*
Mar 25 22:44:38 <DocScrutinizer05> hint: the relation to systemd-initsystem is... *cgroups*
Mar 25 22:44:50 <Wizzup> hint: it doesn't really matter
Mar 25 22:45:25 <DocScrutinizer05> sure
Mar 25 22:45:35 <DocScrutinizer05> nothing really matters
Mar 25 22:51:36 <DocScrutinizer05> seems it helps to adopt a poettering approach to system architecture to adopt systemd
Mar 25 23:01:53 <sixwheeledbeast> brolin_empey: re tuna I doubt it will be off.
Mar 25 23:01:54 <Wizzup> openrc is used, I said someone else made it work with systemd
Mar 25 23:01:58 <Wizzup> but nice assumption ;) 
Mar 25 23:02:46 <sixwheeledbeast> re systemd didn't the ubuntu systemd maintainer step down over some "feature/bug report" a few months back.
Mar 25 23:17:00 <sixwheeledbeast> sorry debian https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/11436
Mar 26 00:11:47 <brolin_empey> Buying RoHS-compliant products from pbtech, heh.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Mar 26 02:59:56 2019