**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 04 03:00:19 2019
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jun 05 03:20:09 2019
Jun 05 08:14:44 <brolin_empey> hmw_metalab: IANAL but I do not think you have to worry about mirroring Maemo stuff considering that it is aged close to a decade.
Jun 05 08:16:53 <hmw_metalab> Thanks, I guessed so. I just wanted to hear, if there have been any issues or not.
Jun 05 08:17:12 <hmw_metalab> That thing still rocks.
Jun 05 17:09:31 <timeless> anyone here deal w/ rack mount UPS systems?
Jun 05 17:16:54 <sixwheeledbeast> in what way?
Jun 05 17:17:08 <timeless> we have one and one of its batteries failed
Jun 05 17:17:15 <timeless> so i figured i'd ask some basic questions
Jun 05 17:17:20 <timeless> but the web has kind of given me the answers
Jun 05 17:17:48 <timeless> namely: (1) don't store UPS batteries w/o plugging them in, it's bad for their health -- I think I knew that at one point but long since forgot
Jun 05 17:18:00 <sixwheeledbeast> ask away i deal with that type of stuff yea
Jun 05 17:18:16 <KotCzarny> ya, leadacid batteries are selfdischarging
Jun 05 17:18:44 <KotCzarny> and they have best life when being fully charged
Jun 05 17:18:56 <KotCzarny> basically same as car accu
Jun 05 17:20:37 <KotCzarny> they CAN be stored, but you should be charging them to full once a month
Jun 05 17:21:15 <timeless> are all battery packs basically rebuilt/recycled exteriors w/ fresh batteries?
Jun 05 17:21:42 <KotCzarny> define 'all battery packs'
Jun 05 17:21:55 <timeless> https://www.amazon.ca/Smart-UPS-SUA3000RM2U-Battery-Cartridge/dp/B00C80UTSS
Jun 05 17:22:07 <timeless> "battery cartridge"?
Jun 05 17:22:15 <KotCzarny> hehe
Jun 05 17:22:19 <timeless> i.e. a pluggable thing that someone adds into a rack mount ups?
Jun 05 17:22:46 <KotCzarny> same as disk drive cartdridges
Jun 05 17:23:25 <KotCzarny> you can try fiddling etc, but in pro world they just replace whole modules
Jun 05 17:23:39 <timeless> i'm not interested in fiddling
Jun 05 17:23:52 <timeless> just trying to get a sense of whether i'm almost always getting a "rebuilt" thing
Jun 05 17:23:56 <timeless> "refurbished"
Jun 05 17:24:09 <KotCzarny> '1 new'
Jun 05 17:26:01 <KotCzarny> there is a chance it's some kind of noname replacement
Jun 05 17:33:38 <bencoh> a recycled exterior isn't so muchof an issue. the real problem with noname is that you cannot really trust them regarding battery capacity / state
Jun 05 17:36:43 <sixwheeledbeast> Mostly they are designed for SLA aka AGM batteries, these are similar tech to flooded car batteries but are designed for an application.
Jun 05 17:38:34 <sixwheeledbeast> In a UPS you would have 12V C20 batteries these have an expected life of 5 years in float applications like a UPS.  They are generally packaged for your UPS into "cartridges"
Jun 05 17:38:44 <bencoh> talking about that, I wonder if/when DC power input will ever become standard on servers
Jun 05 17:39:11 <bencoh> the whole AC/DC/AC/DC thing with UPS is just plain silly
Jun 05 17:39:35 <timeless> I think that some of the bigger companies are doing that for themselves
Jun 05 17:39:39 <KotCzarny> you would have to start selling 12V generators
Jun 05 17:39:40 <KotCzarny> :)
Jun 05 17:39:55 <sixwheeledbeast> I build my own "high quality" cartridges for UPS I general find the cartridges overpriced for what they are.
Jun 05 17:40:00 <timeless> so, is there something i should do to try to "Vet" my vendor?
Jun 05 17:40:11 <bencoh> KotCzarny: we're already using 12 batteries ...
Jun 05 17:40:26 <bencoh> 12V*
Jun 05 17:40:41 <bencoh> sixwheeledbeast: what do you make those of?
Jun 05 17:40:52 <KotCzarny> yeah, but to save on conversions, you would have to provide 12V generators too
Jun 05 17:41:21 <sixwheeledbeast> DC power would require much greater cost due to increased copper size between components.
Jun 05 17:41:42 <bencoh> sixwheeledbeast: even with top-of-the-rack UPSes?
Jun 05 17:41:45 <KotCzarny> swb: but you would save in long term?
Jun 05 17:42:12 <sixwheeledbeast> Not necessarily depends on the installation.
Jun 05 17:42:38 <sixwheeledbeast> I build my UPS cartridges with Yuasa's
Jun 05 17:46:56 <sixwheeledbeast> You can get the double sided adhesive to stick them together if you build them generally from most places. At a push duct tape does a decent job.
Jun 05 17:49:01 <sixwheeledbeast> Also you have to think about redundancy when it comes to a full DC rack.
Jun 05 17:51:31 <bencoh> dual-supply DC/DC doesn't sound impossible (think consumer electronics) but I wouldn't know about that power level
Jun 05 17:58:23 <sixwheeledbeast> timeless: looking at the model you posted a quick search I could "self refurbish" the cartridge for around equivalent of $190CAN with Yuasa branded
Jun 05 17:59:11 <timeless> sixwheeledbeast: so, roughly ~$200 is the actual value of what i'm paying for?
Jun 05 17:59:36 <sixwheeledbeast> minus the labour and shipping of doing the job yes
Jun 05 17:59:39 * timeless wonders about disposal/recycling costs
Jun 05 17:59:57 <sixwheeledbeast> I also recycle my own batteries and get money back there.
Jun 05 18:00:06 <sixwheeledbeast> They are full of lead
Jun 05 18:00:57 <KotCzarny> basically same rules as car accu
Jun 05 18:01:02 <sixwheeledbeast> I suppose they are giving you a cartridge casing too no idea how much that would be worth.
Jun 05 18:03:56 <sixwheeledbeast> TBH the solid cartridge type like that are the easiest to "refurbish" they just plug together. No need to built a battery pack up and stick batteries together like the desktop ones.
Jun 05 18:07:52 <sixwheeledbeast> Example, RBC7 pack $170US I build my own for $110, 10 minute job.
Jun 05 18:09:01 <KotCzarny> 19:23 #maemo timeless > i'm not interested in fiddling
Jun 05 18:09:02 <KotCzarny> ;)
Jun 05 18:09:12 <timeless> I'm a software guy!
Jun 05 18:09:40 <KotCzarny> there is a chance you dont need any soldering
Jun 05 18:09:51 * timeless is definitely not doing soldering
Jun 05 18:09:57 <timeless> that's 5-10 bridges too far
Jun 05 18:10:06 <KotCzarny> just some connectors and physical placement
Jun 05 18:10:27 <timeless> right now i'm trying to figure out what to do to make the ups management software happy
Jun 05 18:10:28 <timeless> right now it
Jun 05 18:10:35 <KotCzarny> unless those cartridges have some anti-fiddler measures similar to printer's cartridges
Jun 05 18:10:37 <timeless> 's sending me emails every couple of minutes screaming
Jun 05 18:10:57 <KotCzarny> checked the manual?
Jun 05 18:12:08 <sixwheeledbeast> Yours is a RBC43 by the way. As I say there is no soldering you may need a screwdriver at the worst. 10 minutes.
Jun 05 18:13:34 <sixwheeledbeast> The only caveat is working out what size Faston connections you have and then it will plug together.
Jun 05 18:14:40 <timeless> sixwheeledbeast: so, basically things that look like this? https://www.batterysharks.com/APC-RBC43-p/apc-rbc43_ups12-5.5_x8.htm
Jun 05 18:16:03 <sixwheeledbeast> timeless: yes there is 8 of those in a RBC43. As I say I buy Yuasa (good brand) tho. 
Jun 05 18:16:42 <KotCzarny> yuase were doing car accus for honda
Jun 05 18:16:47 <KotCzarny> *yuasa
Jun 05 18:16:56 <timeless> http://yuasabattery.ca/
Jun 05 18:16:57 <KotCzarny> the factory mounted ones
Jun 05 18:17:01 <timeless> http://yuasabattery.ca/advanced-search/ -> 500
Jun 05 18:17:03 <timeless> (so reassuring)
Jun 05 18:17:16 <KotCzarny> yeah, basic stuff as sizes, terminal positioning etc
Jun 05 18:17:18 <sixwheeledbeast> They are market leader for batteries
Jun 05 18:18:18 <sixwheeledbeast> As I say I can get model numbers for the Yuasa's but I would need to know what size faston connections. 
Jun 05 18:21:45 <sixwheeledbeast> If it's Type A 4.7mm (Faston 4.7) then you looking at 8x "RE5-12"
Jun 05 18:21:57 <timeless> https://clinicopc.com/store/index.php/component/virtuemart/?keyword=rbc43&view=category&option=com_virtuemart&virtuemart_category_id=557&Itemid=
Jun 05 18:22:02 <timeless> "Our Shop is currently down for maintenance. Please check back again soon."
Jun 05 18:23:27 <timeless> (great, i think i broke my apc management software)
Jun 05 18:23:41 <KotCzarny> at least it will shut up
Jun 05 18:23:42 <KotCzarny> :)
Jun 05 18:23:50 <timeless> (i guess that's one way ... yeah, that)
Jun 05 18:24:38 <sixwheeledbeast> Also yuasabattery.ca is not a genuine GS Yuasa site BTW
Jun 05 18:24:46 <timeless> of course not
Jun 05 18:24:49 * timeless sighs
Jun 05 18:27:51 <sixwheeledbeast> https://www.batterycanada.com/rbc43.asp Not Yuasa but you can see the difference in cost.
Jun 05 18:31:25 <sixwheeledbeast> Seems North America brand Yuasa as GS. Would be these http://www.gsbattery.com/ind-products/PE/PE12V4_5.pdf
Jun 05 18:48:34 <timeless> is this the kind of thing that i can safely understand by watching a single youtube video?
Jun 05 19:00:23 <sixwheeledbeast> timeless: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SC_SZU3VYs
Jun 05 19:02:01 <timeless> thanks
Jun 05 19:02:08 * timeless is multi-tasking (poorly)
Jun 05 19:09:29 <timeless> adventure of the day: upgrading the apc card firmware
Jun 05 19:09:54 <timeless> do people use ssh, https, or just good old telnet/ftp/http?
Jun 05 19:10:25 <KotCzarny> screen is handy on flaky links
Jun 05 19:10:52 <timeless> and in general, how do people deal w/ certificates for network appliances? -- the modern world uses short lived automatically issued certificates, which means that loading certificates would require some automatable method (since it's a periodic task)
Jun 05 19:11:48 <sixwheeledbeast> My home ones have USB connection.
Jun 05 19:12:33 <timeless> i think this card has a usb connection but the disclaimer we got for it was "that software is for windows only"
Jun 05 19:13:08 <timeless> we have a AP9630 card...
Jun 05 19:14:33 <sixwheeledbeast> Ditto I still use apcupsd via USB it seems to work with my power mgmt daemon fine
Jun 05 19:26:58 <timeless> hmm, so after updating the firmware, it says "ups status: unavailable" "online"
Jun 05 19:27:03 <timeless> and "lost communication to ups"
Jun 05 22:24:23 <timeless> Ok, installing the right pairing of firmware got management working
Jun 05 22:49:50 <timeless> And now i'm back to the stupid software sending me an email every 10 mins complaining the battery is bad
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jun 06 02:59:57 2019