**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 03 03:00:23 2020
Jan 03 10:14:15 <brolin_empey> Has anyone here been following (somewhat) recent developments in MLC NAND flash memory as used by COTS SATA SSDs, specifically the KingSpec mSATA SSDs I plan to buy from the KingSpec store on AliExpress to replace some HDDs before the HDDs fail?  Is this a good choice of mSATA SSD if reliability and longevity is much more important than performance?  If I wanted the highest performance then I would not be using decade+ old x86 motherboards with only SATA 3 
Jan 03 10:14:21 <brolin_empey> Gib/s or even, in at least one of the computers, only SATA 1.5 Gib/s host controllers.
Jan 03 10:16:41 <brolin_empey> KotCzarny? Or DocScrutinizer05?  Or anyone else?  hurrian is still gone.  I still wonder what happened to him (or maybe her?)?
Jan 03 10:22:26 <brolin_empey> I doubt that someone who knows as much about computer hardware as hurrian is a woman.
Jan 03 10:23:06 <bencoh> err, I wouldn't say that.
Jan 03 10:23:18 <brolin_empey> I mean someone who knows that much about computer hardware is probably a man.
Jan 03 10:23:43 <bencoh> you'd be surprised.
Jan 03 10:26:28 <brolin_empey> I did not say that women who are very knowledgeable about computer hardware do not exist but it seems that most persons who have a strong interest in this type of subject are men.
Jan 03 10:33:12 <brolin_empey> Apparently other persons in my company may be misusing the general term “LVDS” in the context of interfacing a flat-panel display with an embedded computer to mean a specific application of LVDS, such as the FPD-Link series of standards.
Jan 03 10:39:20 <brolin_empey> Apparently a person who seems to think that current versions of Windows NT are not still Windows NT because Microsoft no longer uses Windows NT as a marketing name is employable as an IT person maintaining computer systems using both client and server editions of Windows NT 10.
Jan 03 10:47:58 <brolin_empey> Does rms drive an automotive vehicle?  If yes then does he drive a vehicle with closed-source firmware?  If yes then is this situation ironic because he could still use a vehicle that is sufficiently old that it does not use software and therefore does not use closed-source software?
Jan 03 10:50:19 <brolin_empey> Does rms use an antique microwave oven that does not use firmware because he wants to avoid closed-source firmware in his microwave oven?
Jan 03 10:52:25 <brolin_empey> Does he use only antique video displays that do not use firmware because he wants to avoid closed-source firmware in his video displays?
Jan 03 10:52:30 <sicelo> what do i need software for in my microwave? :-/
Jan 03 10:54:36 <sicelo> i think RMS doesn't mind closed source FW if it's on something that's off the network. I could be wrong (I don't follow the guy), but that's how I understood from the one or two videos I've seen of him
Jan 03 10:55:36 <brolin_empey> Actually, I think he published his opinion/position/view about when software becomes hardware even if it is technically still software because I remember discussing this subject with someone in 2011.
Jan 03 11:00:12 <sicelo> i'm lost now :)
Jan 03 11:02:05 <brolin_empey> sicelo: Even a countertop microwave oven from 1990 uses firmware for its microcontroller, which may be only a 4-bit computer.  I think the oldest microwave oven I have used in recent years is the 1990 Sanyo one my company had until 2017.  Actually, the code used by the microcontroller may not be firmware in the sense that the manufacturer has to get the software correct the first time because the code cannot be changed after the product is manufactured 
Jan 03 11:02:05 <brolin_empey> without replacing part of the hardware, such as a component on a circuit board.
Jan 03 11:07:00 <sicelo> yes, i understand that. and the microwave is not networked, so there's nothing it reports home, or that the manufacturer uses to keep ownership of the device. 
Jan 03 11:09:34 <brolin_empey> I think but I am not certain that a countertop microwave oven that is sufficiently old that it uses a mechanical timer with a dial that is not an input to a computer like the modern countertop microwave ovens with a dial instead of a keypad may not be a computer even though it still uses electronics, similarly to how a corded push-button POTS telephone from around 1980 or earlier is not a computer even though it uses electronics.  Now even a corded, 
Jan 03 11:09:34 <brolin_empey> stationary telephone has become a computer.
Jan 03 11:20:37 <brolin_empey> Actually, if the code is stored in literal ROM as opposed to some type of programmable ROM then I think it may still be considered firmware as opposed to hardwired logic because even the IBM PC compatible BIOS was, I think, already considered firmware back in the days when it was not field-reprogrammable with only the motherboard like with modern motherboards that store the firmware in EEPROM such as flash memory.  What type of non-volatile memory did IBM 
Jan 03 11:20:37 <brolin_empey> use for the motherboard BIOS in the original IBM Personal Computer, IBM type number 5150, from late 1981?  Is it literal ROM or is it already a form of PROM even if it requires a special programmer (hardware device) that not all users had?
Jan 03 11:25:48 <brolin_empey> I do not remember when EPROM was first commercially used but I know it was already used in at least part of the 1980s.
Jan 03 12:29:17 <DocScrutinizer05> RMS' position is: it isn't software if you can not upgrade it )aka "completely invisible")
Jan 03 12:29:24 <DocScrutinizer05> who cares?
Jan 03 12:34:23 <DocScrutinizer05> note that actually RMS main concern is about "user owns the software". All privacy/security concerns like "calling home" are afterthoughts
Jan 03 12:37:28 <DocScrutinizer05> and more than once they were not in line with the master mantra which is "FOSS FOSS FOSS" - See requests to forbid modem firmware update locally by adding a microcontroller that blocks the flashing command, while it's pretty obvious the modem could suffer OTA exploits and changes of firmware, both permanently in flash as well as temporarily in RAM
Jan 03 12:38:26 <DocScrutinizer05> allowing user to upgrade firmware could fix vulnerabilities. Blocking firmware updates would not help security at all
Jan 03 12:46:05 <DocScrutinizer05> you got to understand that RMS comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU#History >>The goal was to bring a wholly free software operating system into existence.<< and that's still the main concern 
Jan 03 12:49:32 <DocScrutinizer05> back in 1983 such nthing like firmware didn't really exist at all. Then came linux and "smart" peripherals and GNU7RMS missed the point in time where a clear definition of the logical borders of "free software operating system" would have been due
Jan 03 12:53:46 <DocScrutinizer05> attach a USB UMTS stick that needs firmware upload or initialization... NEEDS TO BE FOSS. Attach an USB printer... NEEDS TO BE FOSS? When you could connect to your phone exchange maintenance console via ISDN of your PC, then the "firmware" of that exchange probably also needs to be FOSS. 
Jan 03 13:01:35 <DocScrutinizer05> there's RYF now, but that's suffering pretty muich the same flaws
Jan 03 14:34:29 <brolin_empey> DocScrutinizer05: OK.  Any comment about which SATA SSDs I should buy?  I still need to order the KingSpec mSATA SSDs unless someone suggests an alternative that seems better.
Jan 03 14:35:02 <DocScrutinizer05> sorry, no recent data
Jan 03 14:35:27 <brolin_empey> OK.
Jan 03 14:41:18 <brolin_empey> I expect that asking in ##hardware will result in the subject of discussion changing from which model of SATA SSD I should buy to why I am still using SATA <=3 Gib/s on decade+ old motherboards instead of using NVMe and DDR4 SDRAM and all of the latest and greatest hardware that I do not need and cannot afford to buy because I do not need it.  So I have not even joined that channel.
Jan 03 14:43:31 <brolin_empey> And why I am still using operating systems released in 2013 or earlier, such as Debian 7 and Ubuntu 10.04.x LTS.
Jan 03 14:44:42 <brolin_empey> Or why I am still using an x86-32 OS on an x86-64 computer or other irrelevant and off-topic subjects.
Jan 03 22:16:37 <Cerpin> Hey, I'm trying to get CSSU going, and don't appear to be able to apt-get upgrade after installing it due to some expired keys from muarf. Is there another, better mirror for use  somewhere?
Jan 03 22:17:16 <Cerpin> (I need to do this without HAM because there are a bunch of conflicts from libqt4 stuff, at least that's the recommendation I saw for dealing with such issues on the install page)
Jan 03 22:18:00 <sicelo> keys are expired from Nokia. ignore the key warnings.
Jan 03 22:18:02 <Cerpin> (this is on an N900, sorry. missed that crucial piece of info)
Jan 03 22:18:29 <Cerpin> Oh, so those are from Nokia, and just mirrored over, etc.?
Jan 03 22:18:32 <Cerpin> Ok
Jan 03 22:18:47 <sicelo> s/the key/key/
Jan 03 22:18:48 <infobot> sicelo meant: keys are expired from Nokia. ignore key warnings.
Jan 03 22:18:55 <sicelo> meh
Jan 03 22:19:06 <sicelo> yes  Cerpin 
Jan 03 22:19:50 <Cerpin> --allow-unauthenticated it is. thanks
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 04 02:59:57 2020