**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 15 12:02:51 2010 Feb 15 12:02:51 bye dirkhh, good night. Feb 15 12:02:51 Thiago - keep it up :-) Feb 15 12:02:56 jeremiah: eh, why are you an op? Feb 15 12:02:56 dirkhh: night Feb 15 12:02:59 dirkhh: Thanks for you help? Feb 15 12:03:02 zerojay: I suspect until today, there's not been a community to talk to? Feb 15 12:03:03 bye everyone Feb 15 12:03:04 ! Feb 15 12:03:08 dirkhh: g'night Feb 15 12:03:10 jeremiah: one would think you speak for Nokia and/or Intel Feb 15 12:03:13 dirkhh: catch up with you tomorrow Feb 15 12:03:14 zerojay: what makes you think this is about community? this is now big monneh - we have no word in this anymore... :) Feb 15 12:03:16 dirk_gone: gnight Feb 15 12:03:19 If they had talked to the community first, someone would have leaked the whole thing. Feb 15 12:03:19 if so, I'd be more careful with my sarcasm Feb 15 12:03:21 azeem: Why would one think that? Feb 15 12:03:26 jeremiah: Yeah, actually... considering that's how it's more or less how it's worked before... I guess not anymore. Feb 15 12:03:28 because I'm an op? Feb 15 12:03:33 yes Feb 15 12:03:43 this is the official channel of a Nokia/Intel .com project Feb 15 12:03:46 azeem: this is supposed to be a community channel, it seems Feb 15 12:03:47 and you're an operator Feb 15 12:03:54 It is a community channel Feb 15 12:03:57 community channels are ##meebo Feb 15 12:03:58 :P Feb 15 12:04:04 ##meego* Feb 15 12:04:05 azeem: what about #maemo then? :P Feb 15 12:04:10 azeem: jeremiah's a kick ass dude, regardless. Feb 15 12:04:15 azeem: Do you want me to boot you? Feb 15 12:04:17 I know him Feb 15 12:04:23 =] Feb 15 12:04:34 I have no idea why I am an op Feb 15 12:04:34 azeem: i have temporarily opped since there was -noone- in this channel at time of announcement Feb 15 12:04:43 ^^ That's why! Feb 15 12:04:44 Stskeeps: eh, whoops Feb 15 12:04:45 and when there's proper representants, it'd be changed over Feb 15 12:04:57 Stskeeps: I just hope the other stuff was prepared better Feb 15 12:04:57 imo it's good practice anyway to not have op status unless needed. Feb 15 12:05:04 Shapeshifter: yes, and it will return to that Feb 15 12:05:11 Did I read that previous comment right, later this year the first Meego release will basically be Moblin + QT? Feb 15 12:05:12 azeem: it builds doesn't it Feb 15 12:05:13 long live our temporary overlords Feb 15 12:05:15 Shapeshifter: chances are in the first 24 hours we'd be trolled. Feb 15 12:05:20 (it does build?) Feb 15 12:05:21 yep ^^ Feb 15 12:05:30 wow, people are so intimitaded by @ ? Feb 15 12:05:37 Akos: yes Feb 15 12:05:37 I'm an underlord Feb 15 12:05:52 I'm not even a serf Feb 15 12:05:58 long live our temporary overlords and peon? Feb 15 12:06:01 heh Feb 15 12:06:04 how can you be lower than a serf? Feb 15 12:06:10 I'm underpants! Feb 15 12:06:12 I'm a serf's shoe Feb 15 12:06:17 th0br0: be a husband? Feb 15 12:06:24 In fact, I think I'll kick myself! Feb 15 12:06:25 lbt: lol Feb 15 12:06:37 besides that, the important thing is to start this community :) Feb 15 12:06:44 th0br0, sans-serf perhaps? ;) Feb 15 12:06:46 tick Feb 15 12:06:51 mece: :P Feb 15 12:06:54 what did jeremiah do?-) Feb 15 12:06:57 Stskeeps: right now, it's a community around ... an announcement :D Feb 15 12:07:01 mece: sous-serf surely? Feb 15 12:07:06 Mirv: he kicked himself... with his serf-shoe Feb 15 12:07:18 Mirv, you mean "what would jeremiah do?", right? Feb 15 12:07:18 Mirv: Feb 15 12:07:24 rightly so. ok but I'm in a meeting, just hanging around. Feb 15 12:07:29 hi lbt as well Feb 15 12:07:40 technicals, even with it being a qt backend, its still using x11? Feb 15 12:07:41 woots, registered :) Feb 15 12:07:44 hey, now we'll have someone seriously working on "maemo" based tablet at least Feb 15 12:07:45 it's X11 Feb 15 12:07:52 :) Feb 15 12:07:55 it's a standard Linux "desktop" Feb 15 12:07:59 successor for n810 Feb 15 12:08:01 good Feb 15 12:08:19 glibc (not "crappy-libc" like Android), standard Linux kernel, X11. Feb 15 12:08:20 i sell m,y n900 (buy previous week); who buy it? Feb 15 12:08:22 :( Feb 15 12:08:29 * thiago now has two N900 Feb 15 12:08:30 niqt: me - $10 Feb 15 12:08:37 i have 2.99 Feb 15 12:08:41 * bleeter is still waiting for N900 to release in .au Feb 15 12:08:49 niqt: why are you selling it? Feb 15 12:08:50 th0br0: eglibc or glibc :> Feb 15 12:08:51 I hope there are some nice hw protos in the works already, the market is pretty open for tablest now, since apple hyped it up and iFailed it... Feb 15 12:08:53 when can I start porting meego to my Neo FreeRunner? :) Feb 15 12:08:53 I have 1.5, depending on how much of the gfs I can loan at any given moment ;) Feb 15 12:08:57 anyway, Qt will be the default environment, but if you don't like it, use something else. It's Linux and X11. :-) Feb 15 12:09:03 *tablets Feb 15 12:09:05 Stskeeps: huh? Feb 15 12:09:10 w00t, lol Feb 15 12:09:11 thiago: blasphemy. Qt forever! Feb 15 12:09:13 err, thiago: Feb 15 12:09:18 any x86 netbook should do, no? Feb 15 12:09:20 Mirv: i guess that's a hopeless thing to do. Feb 15 12:09:21 i keep losing one of mine when girlfriend plays angry birds Feb 15 12:09:26 Stskeeps: indeed, but it's still glibc-based. Not even uclibc. Feb 15 12:09:28 lcuk: exactly Feb 15 12:09:40 th0br0: not really, rebuild on armv4. I'm happy with Debian, though. Feb 15 12:09:42 what about the games designed for opengl es, will these work multiplatform? Feb 15 12:09:57 lcuk: OpenGL/ES itself is multiplatform. Feb 15 12:09:59 ie angrybirds Feb 15 12:09:59 OpenGL is multiplatform Feb 15 12:10:00 lcuk, opengles is a standard afaik Feb 15 12:10:03 I can't see why they wouldn't, opengles is multiplatform Feb 15 12:10:09 lcuk, and multiplatform Feb 15 12:10:09 beaten by three people. :| Feb 15 12:10:11 So what's better about Moblin? Why not use Maemo's existing Debian-base? Was it just politics? Feb 15 12:10:14 be careful with OpenGL games. Those won't work on OpenGL/ES. Feb 15 12:10:22 i thought GL on the desktop/large format, and GLES on the embedded Feb 15 12:10:23 AnonC: because RPM rocks :) Feb 15 12:10:32 AnonC: the software itself is very close Feb 15 12:10:34 AnonC: they traded - clutter and .deb lost Feb 15 12:10:35 thiago: depends on the OGL features used afair? Feb 15 12:10:36 DEB rocks :) Feb 15 12:10:37 thiago, yeah opengl/ES differences are annoying... Feb 15 12:10:43 both use standard Linux, standard libc, standard X.org, etc. Feb 15 12:10:49 Simple: Because RPM is possible for mortals to understand ;) Feb 15 12:10:52 the packaging was a decision for one or the other. Feb 15 12:10:53 th0br0: deb ftw :) Feb 15 12:10:53 deb cannot be lost :( Feb 15 12:10:54 WOw, it worked Feb 15 12:10:58 wb jeremiah Feb 15 12:11:02 that took you a long time Feb 15 12:11:04 I know Feb 15 12:11:06 wb jeremiah :) Feb 15 12:11:09 AnonC: well the first thing that comes to my mind is that Maemo was not a distribution as such. Feb 15 12:11:10 What n00b Feb 15 12:11:10 No need for brains the size of small planets to keep track of what's going on ;) Feb 15 12:11:11 you do know that there are other package managers besides rpm and apt, right? Feb 15 12:11:15 What a n00b I am Feb 15 12:11:17 * av500 doubts u can compete with apple/android with a package manager Feb 15 12:11:19 and you missed the .deb thing jeremiah... too late :) Feb 15 12:11:24 hbons: ohai #pidgin person :) Feb 15 12:11:29 Shapeshifter: yes, I demand that it be based on gentoo Feb 15 12:11:29 I'd like to have a) distribution b) proper separation of free/non-free throughout the distro Feb 15 12:11:32 leinir: clearly, we saw clutter ;) Feb 15 12:11:36 AnonC: lol. Feb 15 12:11:39 so err, has moblin relesead anything along the lines of maemo or has it just been a reaaaaaally long wip? Feb 15 12:11:42 lbt: Indeed ;) Feb 15 12:11:50 frals: 1.0 is released Feb 15 12:11:55 Moblin 2.0 is soon Feb 15 12:12:15 didn't I just download Moblin 2.1-final? Feb 15 12:12:16 bleeter: hi, sorry, i don't do autographs today :) Feb 15 12:12:20 The APT system is better at resolving dependencies, rpm packages are easy to create Feb 15 12:12:25 jeremiah: 2.1 is out AFAIK Feb 15 12:12:29 hbons: :'( lol ;) Feb 15 12:12:34 http://moblin.org/community/blogs/imad/2009/moblin-v2.1-project-release-netbooks-and-nettops-its-here Feb 15 12:12:36 lbt: you may be right sir Feb 15 12:12:41 well package manager is just a packagemanager. rpm/apt/whatever. it's pretty much the same in the end. Feb 15 12:12:43 2.2 or so is next Feb 15 12:12:47 s/is/was/ Feb 15 12:12:52 okay Feb 15 12:12:57 mece: no, it's a philosophy! ;) Feb 15 12:12:58 I'm am aparently way behind Feb 15 12:12:59 mece: that's not how you fan the flames of a decent religious war :-) Feb 15 12:13:05 I'm am? Feb 15 12:13:11 I'm glad Qt is on top, I'm sad that RPM was chosen though Feb 15 12:13:12 w00t, well you fan them better then Feb 15 12:13:20 Mirv: given they use .rpm I'm surprised they counted higher than 2 though Feb 15 12:13:26 mece: naah, I prefer to eat popcorn and watch Feb 15 12:13:32 hbons: to be honest thought I was in another channel and was tab-completing for someone else, spotted you and figured I should at least say hi. been a year. or three. nice to see you're still kickin' :) Feb 15 12:13:39 Given they use rpm, I'm surprised the can count. Feb 15 12:13:42 well, I only use apt atm, so I'd like it to be apt. But I'm not going to complain. Feb 15 12:13:49 so i'm really surprised that this nick wasn't taken yet :D Feb 15 12:13:56 meego: Oh, you'll complain Feb 15 12:14:01 LOL Feb 15 12:14:06 jeremiah: trust me, there are worse nicks. <---- Feb 15 12:14:06 mece: Oh, you'll complain Feb 15 12:14:12 w00t! lol Feb 15 12:14:13 about all the highlights? yes i guess so. Feb 15 12:14:17 meego: /nick meeto Feb 15 12:14:28 nah, i'll stick with th0br0 Feb 15 12:14:28 The question with rpm is: which wrapper will go around it to resolve dependencies? yum looks much too memory hungry to be used on the tablets. Feb 15 12:14:34 jeremiah, why would I? I will not afford another device in ~4 years, so I won't even have the thing ;) Feb 15 12:14:43 range: you know that apt works with RPM, right? Feb 15 12:14:43 heh Feb 15 12:14:48 Or will apt-rpm be used? Feb 15 12:14:53 I don't know Feb 15 12:14:58 thiago: so some things will work right then Feb 15 12:15:04 thiago: Yes, but I have no idea if that still is under development. Feb 15 12:15:14 my experience with deb vs rpm is that the upgrades and dependency calculations have been much better with deb/apt than with rpm/yum Feb 15 12:15:14 bleeter: ah, you're from guifications Feb 15 12:15:16 probably not Feb 15 12:15:16 Or has been given up :) Feb 15 12:15:16 I'm amazed that there are actually so many cross package manager tools nowadays Feb 15 12:15:20 it was abandoned in favour of smart Feb 15 12:15:38 good bye meego nick. Feb 15 12:15:39 Which hasn't really seen updates either, AFAIR :) Feb 15 12:15:41 anyway, those are technical problems and they can be solved Feb 15 12:15:44 Andrioid: Indeed - yum was created to compete with APT Feb 15 12:15:46 Yes, sure. Feb 15 12:15:50 I wonder whether Ubuntu will be "MeeGo compliant"... Feb 15 12:15:53 yum is memory hungry? Let's fix it. Feb 15 12:15:59 or use something else. Feb 15 12:16:00 zypper FTW Feb 15 12:16:09 opensuse uses that Feb 15 12:16:09 so anybody to confirm... meego is moblin w/ smaller parts of maemo sprinkled on top? Feb 15 12:16:13 zypper is actually pretty cool Feb 15 12:16:16 yum has really improved with F11 or F12 Feb 15 12:16:17 maintaining BOTH deb and rpm is insane, so one had to go Feb 15 12:16:21 hbons: figured it'd be so long you'd need to at least look at the nick. former pidgin crazy patch writer, then via guifications and then some warcraft GPL addons... ugh. strange trip ;) Feb 15 12:16:24 It is as close as you can get to aptitude Feb 15 12:16:24 it's fast. Feb 15 12:16:24 yep, hopefully finally rpm performance issues would be solved. upgrading Fedora on my netbook (SSD with sluggish random writes) was 3-5x slower than updating Ubuntu (with ~ same packages) Feb 15 12:16:30 and not really memory-excessive nowadays. Feb 15 12:16:41 you guys really never heard of pacman :| Feb 15 12:16:51 Shapeshifter: or umm... foresight's package manager Feb 15 12:16:52 Shapeshifter, i did! Feb 15 12:16:53 I use it. Feb 15 12:16:56 th0br0, yum has a great name too :D Feb 15 12:16:59 Cause I'm on Arch. Feb 15 12:17:02 yeah, it's yummy! Feb 15 12:17:05 Yellow Dog Updater? Feb 15 12:17:06 arch <3 Feb 15 12:17:07 ah, conary Feb 15 12:17:08 I'm one of those who tried DEB when Fedora Core 2 came out and my upgrade bricked my machine... haven't gone back to RPM since Feb 15 12:17:14 installation took ca. 15h with Fedora and ca. 3h with Ubuntu, etc.. but finally someone will pay attention to that :) Feb 15 12:17:18 jeremiah: Yellow Dog uses yum. Feb 15 12:17:23 Andrioid: .deb will be missed Feb 15 12:17:24 Andrioid: fedora core 2 was 5 years ago... Feb 15 12:17:31 Yellow Dog Updater == yum Feb 15 12:17:32 :) Feb 15 12:17:34 deb is the only sane way to go :) Feb 15 12:17:36 interesting, Meego was trending above Google Buz for a little while Feb 15 12:17:42 Mirv: really? that shouldn't have taken that long though... Feb 15 12:17:42 pacman ftw, amirite? :) Feb 15 12:17:43 what petteri said Feb 15 12:17:47 th0br0, true; but like I said... haven't tried it since... no reason :) Feb 15 12:18:02 th0br0: it does, if you have slow random writes. apparently rpm does a lot of small random writes. Feb 15 12:18:04 lol Shapeshifter Feb 15 12:18:10 * ElPollo agrees with Shapeshifter. Feb 15 12:18:19 Well, at least I'll finally have a good reason to learn RPM :-) Feb 15 12:18:21 Mirv: which fedora release? Feb 15 12:18:24 ElPollo is a chicken. Feb 15 12:18:29 th0br0: 12 Feb 15 12:18:30 Chickens are good Feb 15 12:18:32 Mirv: interesting Feb 15 12:18:38 Indeed! Feb 15 12:18:44 Luv chicken Feb 15 12:18:59 RPMs are easier to build that debs Feb 15 12:19:05 But debs are easier to install Feb 15 12:19:24 yep. Feb 15 12:19:25 but I guess it does not matter which package system is used... as long as it is maintained properly; just a shame that all of those Ubuntu users/developers will feel left out (also might isolate current Maemo contributors) Feb 15 12:19:30 jeremiah: we could do with a deb->rpm document Feb 15 12:19:33 El Pollo Diablo!... Wait what? Feb 15 12:19:36 It does matter. Feb 15 12:19:40 lbt: that's not really possible... Feb 15 12:19:44 What we desperately need is a single package format Feb 15 12:19:49 No rpm... no rpm... no rpm... no rpm... no rpm Feb 15 12:19:51 th0br0: document, not script Feb 15 12:19:53 lbt: th0br0 alien! Feb 15 12:19:54 jeremiah: tar.gz Feb 15 12:20:01 tar.bz Feb 15 12:20:05 ipkg! ;) Feb 15 12:20:08 tar.7z Feb 15 12:20:11 duh... alien ... ... ... :S i haven't had good experiences with that in the past Feb 15 12:20:14 tarballs are not compiled Feb 15 12:20:20 lardman: no, opkg ;-) Feb 15 12:20:21 compile meh tarballz Feb 15 12:20:23 neither are .debs Feb 15 12:20:24 jeremiah: who says?! Feb 15 12:20:28 my tarry ballz Feb 15 12:20:28 ;) Feb 15 12:20:33 azeem: Umm, yah Feb 15 12:20:35 rwhitby: ah yes, I forgot it advanced Feb 15 12:20:36 .debs are ar archives of two .tar.gz's and a file Feb 15 12:20:38 debs are binaryies Feb 15 12:20:51 I am just picturing a Gentoo running on my Atom machine... My god it would take a whole year, just to get the X libs compiled Feb 15 12:20:52 jeremiah: tarballs can contain binaries as well Feb 15 12:20:54 debs are .tar.gz's Feb 15 12:20:55 azeem: They are built on a target Arch Feb 15 12:20:59 no Feb 15 12:21:01 you can also get source debs though Feb 15 12:21:02 what Feb 15 12:21:06 debs are ar archives Feb 15 12:21:14 12:50 < dirkhh> SuSE used to be tar.gz based :-) Feb 15 12:21:15 * Shapeshifter watches how everyone knows more then the other Feb 15 12:21:15 but don't they contain data.tar.gz etc? Feb 15 12:21:15 Of course you can Feb 15 12:21:26 jeremiah: eh, I just said that Feb 15 12:21:30 Shapeshifter: but that's the fun here, isn't it? ;) Feb 15 12:21:32 http://omploader.org/vMnkycg/trollcat.jpg Feb 15 12:21:34 There are source packages and binary packages Feb 15 12:21:38 as tybollt said, can anyone confirm " meego is moblin w/ smaller parts of maemo sprinkled on top?" Feb 15 12:21:41 The two are separate Feb 15 12:21:49 jeremiah: did you hear of slackware? Feb 15 12:21:49 * thiago doesn't remember SUSE as tar.gz Feb 15 12:21:50 Shapeshifter: exponentially more... until we don't Feb 15 12:21:53 the first I used was RPM already Feb 15 12:21:57 mece: that's a "loaded" question Feb 15 12:21:58 with a Slackware-like package organisation Feb 15 12:21:58 azeem: No, do tell. Feb 15 12:22:02 meh Feb 15 12:22:05 jeremiah: they use .tar.gz still as binary packages Feb 15 12:22:07 AFAIK Feb 15 12:22:10 villemv, I've brought popcorn Feb 15 12:22:19 Hmm, sounds like FreeBSD Feb 15 12:22:24 same here (popcorn) Feb 15 12:22:35 mece: it seems meego is not like moblin at all. the most important thing, the main ui lib, is different (Qt9 Feb 15 12:22:38 But debian supports many more arches than slack Feb 15 12:22:43 And it just works Feb 15 12:22:53 Plus, the dfsg is the bomb Feb 15 12:22:56 villemv, yes so it seems.. Feb 15 12:22:59 ill MeeGo use .rpm or .deb as its packaging system? Feb 15 12:23:02 rpm Feb 15 12:23:04 MeeGo will use the .rpm format Feb 15 12:23:07 http://meego.com/about/faq Feb 15 12:23:16 jeremiah, as our resident .deb expert - can we run the current repositories through a conversion and get rpms out the other side? Feb 15 12:23:21 azeem: very very early suse was just a modded slackware, hence tar.gz Feb 15 12:23:25 Sage: damn :( Feb 15 12:23:26 I'm wondering. everyone that have been working on harmattan, have they actually, and knowingly, been working with meego? Feb 15 12:23:27 lcuk: Probably yes Feb 15 12:23:31 s/azeem/thiago/ Feb 15 12:23:32 But I wouldn't Feb 15 12:23:33 s/with/on Feb 15 12:23:42 that is the official answer I think. :D Feb 15 12:23:44 lcuk: You can check out alien which is pretty good Feb 15 12:23:54 rpm yes. it's official. Feb 15 12:23:59 at converting between the two Feb 15 12:24:07 I wouldn't run anything from alien on my mobile phone, TBH Feb 15 12:24:11 does this mean that the current Moblin frontend will be rewritten in Qt? (or is it Qt?) Feb 15 12:24:17 meego wiki? Feb 15 12:24:24 Qt Feb 15 12:24:32 I think MeeGo is just Moblin with At Feb 15 12:24:34 Qt Feb 15 12:24:41 Qt Feb 15 12:24:43 heh Feb 15 12:24:57 Wt ? Feb 15 12:25:04 now on to QML everywhere :-) Feb 15 12:25:08 jeremiah: do you know who is rewriting things in Qt? TrollTech? Feb 15 12:25:12 "At"? Feb 15 12:25:12 so what parts of moblin and what parts of maemo will be taken? moblin's kernel and boot time work? Feb 15 12:25:13 I have heard a lot of pushback from inside Moblin that Nokia is always pushing Qt on Moblin projects. Feb 15 12:25:14 but wasn't Moblin (and parts of Maemo) originally a GTK based project? Feb 15 12:25:23 Andrioid: yes, clutter/GTK based Feb 15 12:25:25 Andrioid: yes Feb 15 12:25:26 th0br0: Qt off by 1 Feb 15 12:25:32 Huh, k Feb 15 12:25:33 Maemo 5 is still GTK-powered Feb 15 12:25:41 indeed Feb 15 12:25:43 though we have also released today the Qt 4.6.2 final for Maemo 5 Feb 15 12:25:55 thiago: excellent Feb 15 12:25:56 Maemo 6 (a.k.a. Harmattan) is Qt-powered Feb 15 12:25:58 We're way ahead of Moblin Feb 15 12:26:01 thiago, which is very nice! Feb 15 12:26:02 * lbt doesn't like to talk about Qt 4.6 for Maemo .... grrr Feb 15 12:26:08 mh. maemo6 won't exist, right? Feb 15 12:26:12 Shapeshifter: maemo6 will Feb 15 12:26:16 13:12 < azeem> this whole meego thing just looks like 1. Nokia management decides to use Qt due to Troll-Tech aquisition 2. Maemo engineers tell management they do not have Qt versions of their Maemo apps 3. Nokia Management talks to Intel about Moblin merger to have their apps outsourced Feb 15 12:26:16 it will be an "instanceo f meego" Feb 15 12:26:17 Shapeshifter: Harmattan remains Feb 15 12:26:26 ah? Feb 15 12:26:43 azeem: Trolltech had the capitalisation changed many years ago :-) Feb 15 12:26:44 azeem: if that was true meego would have clutter UIs Feb 15 12:26:46 thiago: Harmattan is still happening ? Feb 15 12:26:54 maybe faq url also in the topic for some time wouldn't hurt for those who are too fast to browse to it from the front page :) Feb 15 12:26:59 yes, Harmattan is still happening Feb 15 12:26:59 of course harmattan is happening Feb 15 12:27:07 wstephenson: 13:24 < jeremiah> I think MeeGo is just Moblin with At Feb 15 12:27:14 let me rephrase... where will we see Qt (in the user-interface) where GTK used to be in Meego, as opposed to Moblin/Maemo? Feb 15 12:27:15 Oi Feb 15 12:27:18 Did I say that? Feb 15 12:27:26 I think you misquoted me. Feb 15 12:27:41 sorry I forgot to fix the typo Feb 15 12:27:44 heh Feb 15 12:27:47 lbt, http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2010/02/meego-time.html "Maemo6 will be MeeGo compatible.....consider Maemo6 already a MeeGo instance." Feb 15 12:27:57 thiago: speaking of capitalisation, since you'll be getting a lot more Qt users, you should make sure everyone knows it's cute Qt and not queue-tee QT from the beginning. Feb 15 12:28:07 mece: oooh Feb 15 12:28:08 cute! Feb 15 12:28:16 yes. Cute. Feb 15 12:28:17 oh, yeah Feb 15 12:28:20 pronounced "Cute" Feb 15 12:28:20 kyoooot Feb 15 12:28:23 kuutee Feb 15 12:28:31 Cute. Feb 15 12:28:31 villemv: that's just for Finns Feb 15 12:28:32 villemv: back of the classroom! Feb 15 12:28:36 Qt is indeed "cute"... remarkably easy to program in it Feb 15 12:28:43 cute finns Feb 15 12:28:50 impressive, 1 to 141 people in what, two hours? :P Feb 15 12:28:52 The way I see it nokia intel collabo has always been in the works ever since they both annouced they would be working on some ophono project which is suppose to be on a shared open source telephony stack for Linux Feb 15 12:28:55 villemv: and then we have the Norppa project :-P Feb 15 12:29:06 :-) Feb 15 12:29:09 What happens to LinMo? Feb 15 12:29:16 bigbrovar: ofono, yes Feb 15 12:29:25 jeremiah: it will merge next week, no? :) Feb 15 12:29:26 jeremiah: I refuse to comment ;) Feb 15 12:29:31 heh Feb 15 12:29:32 bigbrovar: the invitation for the announcement today made reference on that Feb 15 12:29:43 hey florian :) Feb 15 12:30:04 heh, pronounced "kuutee" in http://meego.com/about/overview/big-merge-message-meego-technical-steering-group Feb 15 12:30:04 So much excitement for a Monday morning / afternoon Feb 15 12:30:16 yep Stskeeps Feb 15 12:30:29 thiago: am not surprised. I knew both companies would join hands to face the competition from android Feb 15 12:30:30 :-) Feb 15 12:30:37 so if the package format is rpm, is there an existing distro underneath it? Feb 15 12:30:37 if jaaksi says "Code will be available for everybody under proper open source licenses" does that mean Intel will finally open up poulsbo? Feb 15 12:30:38 well the Cute intel lady said both kuutee and cute :) Feb 15 12:30:48 Yeah, Android is clearly the elephant in the room Feb 15 12:31:01 oh, while everyone is messing about what everyone should use: Down with ALSA! Feb 15 12:31:03 interesting side snipes at Android's fork last year in the announcements ;) Feb 15 12:31:14 av500: Oh you here... searching for an Android replacement? ;) Feb 15 12:31:15 as an suse guy i'd like it if dirkhh went back to his roots with this. Feb 15 12:31:26 what is meego? Feb 15 12:31:26 Shapeshifter: So true. OSS Forever!!!!111!1!11!!! Feb 15 12:31:28 * av500 hopes Nokia will hide their android team from the meamo/meego people Feb 15 12:31:33 bleeter: yess!!! Feb 15 12:31:38 florian: no, but I have popcorn Feb 15 12:31:42 Nokia has an Android team? Feb 15 12:31:44 av500: Is there a Nokia android team? Feb 15 12:31:47 om26er: what do you do here? ;) Feb 15 12:31:59 av500: do they have one at all? is nokia a member of the OHA? Feb 15 12:32:11 hmm.. Do it read correctly in between the lines that in order to hardware to comply with MeeGo it's drivers and other hardware vendor provided code has to be open? http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process Feb 15 12:32:19 it would seem that Nokia is already split enough with Symbian and Maemo/Meego Feb 15 12:32:23 av500: :-) Feb 15 12:32:33 florian, what is meego wasn't that simple enough of a question? Feb 15 12:32:48 Wellark1: if I understand your question, that's how gpl linux works. Feb 15 12:32:48 * jones- points the admins to the fact that there's no MeeGo Facebook page yet. Feb 15 12:32:48 om26er: see topic Feb 15 12:32:57 jeremiah: not yet :) Feb 15 12:33:01 Wellark1: doubtful Feb 15 12:33:11 wstephenson: moblin is based on fedora is that is an indication Feb 15 12:33:16 omg no facebook?! is there a tweep as well? Feb 15 12:33:19 Wellark1: except for Intel's GMA500, of course Feb 15 12:33:25 bleeter: no, kernel modules can be closed source afaik Feb 15 12:33:25 bleeter: well, actually not. We have a punch of binary only drivers :) Feb 15 12:33:29 azeem: ;) Feb 15 12:33:29 bigbrovar: meego won't be Feb 15 12:33:46 actually, kinda all android drivers are closed source Feb 15 12:33:51 as moblin did not work on gma500, I guess meebo wont either Feb 15 12:33:52 i hope they'll go in direction like Mer did - open source core, "fairly OK" with closed source on HW side Feb 15 12:33:55 th0br0, Wellark1: it's late, I've had Whiskey. I didn't understand the question correctly ;) thx for correction. Feb 15 12:33:55 on netbooks, it will be rpm based as moblin? Feb 15 12:33:56 calling android opne source is ... well, only 50% true Feb 15 12:34:01 nbd bleeter Feb 15 12:34:11 om26er: it will be rpm-based Feb 15 12:34:11 Fedora started out as an alpha version of RHEL (previously Redhat Linux)... building on top of it gives me the shivers Feb 15 12:34:14 bigbrovar: there are 'moblin' implementations on lots of distros Feb 15 12:34:27 bleeter: unfortunately it's too early in here to have some whiskey Feb 15 12:34:27 damn.. it DOES look like meego will be properly open source... Feb 15 12:34:41 I mean damn in a good/surprised way Feb 15 12:34:46 with the FSF and everything Feb 15 12:34:50 wstephenson: yeah but the upstream developement of moblin is based on fedora Feb 15 12:35:17 bigbrovar: that is completely untrue Feb 15 12:35:25 Moblin is Moblin, Fedora is Fedora Feb 15 12:35:35 Whiskey? Is there Whiskey? Feb 15 12:35:36 and MeeGo = Moblin + Maemo Feb 15 12:35:46 just because they both use RPM doesn't mean that we're any more based on Fedora than SUSE are Feb 15 12:35:47 nedrichards, no its based on fedora and some other rpm typo distros Feb 15 12:35:53 people should really get over distro love/hate. it's probably the one true thing holding linux back. Feb 15 12:36:04 cept for android ;) Feb 15 12:36:09 bigbrovar: typically the ones that get deployed on sold devices come from other distros that are more long term supportable. Feb 15 12:36:11 s/android/forks/ Feb 15 12:36:12 hello, I just joined to congratulate on the merging :) Feb 15 12:36:15 That is the point of linux - flamewars! Feb 15 12:36:22 bleeter: unified package system would be awesome... Feb 15 12:36:27 rpm is simply slow when compared to dpkg. Feb 15 12:36:34 Andrioid: Apple has that :) Feb 15 12:36:38 jeremiah: I thought BSD was for flamewars! Feb 15 12:36:38 jeremiah, Exactly!! Feb 15 12:36:43 LOL Feb 15 12:36:47 lulz Feb 15 12:36:51 Apple has that? Apple is flying solo... wouldn't exactly call that unified Feb 15 12:36:58 Apple has apt too: fink Feb 15 12:36:59 they should have besed thiss off NetBSD Feb 15 12:37:06 to be compatible with android userspace Feb 15 12:37:10 bleeter: yes, but a big project/product like meego splashing down is going to change the distro landscape in some way Feb 15 12:37:14 No way, it should be Plan9 based Feb 15 12:37:19 yawn. android is pong. Why are we even discussing it? Feb 15 12:37:23 moblin will stop here ( no moblin 2.2?) Feb 15 12:37:25 pfft, amigaOS based Feb 15 12:37:26 mece: pong? Feb 15 12:37:30 Amiga Os 2.1 Feb 15 12:37:32 jeremiah: cool... one big phone cluster. Feb 15 12:37:33 My big problem with Android: Java Feb 15 12:37:41 azeem, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pong Feb 15 12:37:42 nedrichards: what I mean is the underlying distro is fedora (or a fork of it) even the rpm for moblin indictates thus .. it used to be based on ubuntuhttp://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2068665492.html Feb 15 12:37:43 Everything is a file! :) Feb 15 12:37:57 bleeter: sure, amigaos is the obvious one for a Meego :) Feb 15 12:38:02 mece: I know the game, I don't understand what it has to do with Android Feb 15 12:38:07 Andrioid: java is just to get C code called :) Feb 15 12:38:09 wstephenson: :D Feb 15 12:38:11 AMeegoS Feb 15 12:38:43 I've still got A500 and A1200 under the house Feb 15 12:38:50 proper place Feb 15 12:38:53 think there's a CD32 there too, never got a CDTV :'( Feb 15 12:38:56 this switch is going to be a pain for people already selling moblin based products Feb 15 12:38:58 azeem, well android is not a proper linux distro. Feb 15 12:39:02 av500: it's not the speed that bothers me, it's the programming language... I found Qt much easier to work with Feb 15 12:39:12 they get to support gtk+clutter for their existing deals and Qt for the new ones. Feb 15 12:39:12 azeem, so maemo makes android look like pong Feb 15 12:39:14 bleeter: No MMU ftw! Feb 15 12:39:30 tybollt: hell yes. kids today don't know how lucky they are. Feb 15 12:39:36 bleeter: my A1500 only exists in emulated form these days. Feb 15 12:39:39 mece: right, but the working maemo implementation just got axed Feb 15 12:39:44 bleeter: :-D Feb 15 12:39:53 bleeter: i caught strigi indexing its files on my harddisk the other day... Feb 15 12:40:01 and the Nexus actually seems like superior hardware compared to the N900 Feb 15 12:40:08 in terms of form-factor and design Feb 15 12:40:12 azeem, yes.. runs pong though. Feb 15 12:40:16 I also miss my A2000, there was a machine you didn't really ever want to take the lid off Feb 15 12:40:20 azeem: nexus one is very nice Feb 15 12:40:25 meh... one more linux mobine channel to hang in... Feb 15 12:40:43 mece: I won't be able to trivially recompile the Debian nethack package for meego, so I no longer care about the software much Feb 15 12:41:04 azeem, are you sure? Feb 15 12:41:06 I looked at Nexus, but then wanted to buy a N900 because it runs near-Debian Feb 15 12:41:25 I wanted something that works :) Feb 15 12:41:29 azeem: you can dual-boot easily Feb 15 12:41:34 if the kernel and the drivers for Android are open-source... is there anything preventing Meego to backport the drivers and get Meego running on the Nexus One (as an example?) Feb 15 12:41:44 Andrioid: no Feb 15 12:42:02 lbt: as I said, Nokia has a bad track record with abandoning old handsets when the new thing comes out Feb 15 12:42:03 maemo on android HW and android on meamo HW is no problem Feb 15 12:42:08 the N900 looks stale at this point Feb 15 12:42:14 :) Feb 15 12:42:16 so, then we let Google conquer the world, only to convert them to Meego when they're done Feb 15 12:42:20 azeem: this was mainly a problem due to it being closed source. Feb 15 12:42:24 or at least Nokia didn't manage to communicate this better Feb 15 12:42:28 MeeGoogle Feb 15 12:42:31 I don't think so Feb 15 12:42:32 azeem, the n900 is pretty much perfect. Everything I've been heraring about newer hadsets have been worse. Feb 15 12:42:40 azeem, for me. Feb 15 12:42:40 mece: eh, it's too big Feb 15 12:42:47 azeem, you mean too small? Feb 15 12:42:51 I don't need a freaking radio transmitter in my mobile Feb 15 12:42:54 to thick Feb 15 12:42:56 too* Feb 15 12:43:01 or infrared Feb 15 12:43:02 azeem, I need a radio transmitter. Feb 15 12:43:03 It is roughly the same size as the Nexus One Feb 15 12:43:06 mece: great for you Feb 15 12:43:13 jeremiah: dude, it's about twice as thick Feb 15 12:43:15 azeem, yes it is. Feb 15 12:43:16 AFACIT Feb 15 12:43:20 the radio transmitter is this isze: . (to scale) Feb 15 12:43:27 azeem, I need a keyboard. Feb 15 12:43:38 azeem, I need it not to run pong. The N900 does all this :) Feb 15 12:43:43 i love the transmitter. don't have to screw around with cables when visiting friends who don't have BT amps Feb 15 12:43:54 I just compared them both a FOSDEM, they are the same weight Feb 15 12:44:01 transmitter is sweet. Feb 15 12:44:01 you get the fm tx for free with the BT/WIFI/GPS chip Feb 15 12:44:08 The Nexus one is a little longer, not as thick Feb 15 12:44:09 it is SW mostlay Feb 15 12:44:35 Where are the RSS/Atom feeds from meego website? Are there any? Feb 15 12:44:42 Well. It's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.. Feb 15 12:44:45 Hardware keyboard FTW Feb 15 12:44:45 i saw both te n900 and the nexus one at fosdem and must admit that i prefer the n900 Feb 15 12:44:51 exactly, jeremiah :D Feb 15 12:44:55 I'm out. Feb 15 12:44:56 ta. Feb 15 12:45:03 Lots of people had N900s at FOSDEM - I was amazed Feb 15 12:45:31 jeremiah: I guess it would have been more nexus if the ADL2010 would have been before := Feb 15 12:45:34 because there were lots of Collabora techs I guess ;) Feb 15 12:45:37 The amazing thing was that lots of debian guys had them, and those are realy free software types Feb 15 12:45:55 ADL2010? Feb 15 12:46:00 anyone here going to Open Source Days (www.opensourcedays.org) in CPH in March? Feb 15 12:46:07 av500: fmtx is seperate. fmrx is with bluetooth and wifi Feb 15 12:46:09 jeremiah: they just have a Debian chroot I guess Feb 15 12:46:12 a lot of those were developer phones though, jeremiah Feb 15 12:46:24 azeem: Most were using Maemo Feb 15 12:46:24 and the pain is less with a N900 than with Android Feb 15 12:46:24 jeremiah: android dev labs where they gave out free nexus ... Feb 15 12:46:33 ah Feb 15 12:46:35 okay Feb 15 12:46:36 13:40 < azeem> mece: I won't be able to trivially recompile the Debian nethack package for meego Feb 15 12:46:48 jeremiah: on the contrary, you *are* with the N900, so that's why it's so appealing to them Feb 15 12:47:00 Me? Feb 15 12:47:01 but of course, it's a fringe market percentage ;) Feb 15 12:47:08 you, as in the Debian Developers Feb 15 12:47:16 ah Feb 15 12:47:41 SpeedEvil: nope, fm tx and rx is both part of ti wilink Feb 15 12:47:50 been there, dont that Feb 15 12:47:51 hello world ! Feb 15 12:48:21 ehlo localhost Feb 15 12:48:27 'jour Feb 15 12:48:43 av500: are you talking about the n900? The fmtx is certainly a seperate chip. The si4723 IIRC Feb 15 12:48:57 hi all :) Feb 15 12:49:11 salut a tous les français aussi :D ! Feb 15 12:49:20 merde Feb 15 12:49:30 sacre bleu Feb 15 12:49:35 mon dieu! Feb 15 12:49:45 i saw MeeGo creation new today in my RSS, and i'm a N900 owner, linux lover and Qt developper ! And i want to know if it will be possible to do a dual boot on a Micro SD card to test quickly MeeGo on N900 ?? Feb 15 12:49:46 je est d'connard Feb 15 12:49:49 er Feb 15 12:49:51 j'est Feb 15 12:49:52 crap Feb 15 12:49:56 hmmm Feb 15 12:49:56 hein ? Feb 15 12:50:00 thebootroo: Try it out and be the first Feb 15 12:50:08 yes Feb 15 12:50:09 thebootroo: yes, but no code is published Feb 15 12:50:18 but for now there is nothing to test no ? Feb 15 12:50:38 oh hello mana guy, thorbjorn Feb 15 12:50:39 thebootroo: first of all, there's no MeeGo yet :-P Feb 15 12:50:50 do you have an idea of in how many time it could happend ? Feb 15 12:50:54 It is just linux, you'll be able to do whatever you eant Feb 15 12:50:56 want Feb 15 12:50:56 th0br0: Yeah, here to make sure Mana gets to MeeGo. :P Feb 15 12:51:00 :P thorbjorn Feb 15 12:51:17 thebootroo: dirk said there is no (public) roadmap yet Feb 15 12:51:18 thebootroo: they say few weeks for code Feb 15 12:51:24 ok Feb 15 12:51:38 or rather that he couldn't give any dates Feb 15 12:51:38 MEGA News spotted :D Feb 15 12:52:23 th0br0: But seriously, when Mana 1.0 is out we plan to do a Qt version, and we should make sure it has an interface that runs great on mobile devices running MeeGo. Feb 15 12:52:36 Now I really gotta work on getting the perl-Qt bindings into Maemo Feb 15 12:52:38 makes sense, announce the news so a bit easier to move in to staging before launch. any accidental leaks not to damaging Feb 15 12:52:42 Cool, that sounds great, thebootroo Feb 15 12:52:43 Hi all Feb 15 12:52:44 eeh thorbjorn Feb 15 12:52:52 on the meego site we can see that dev will be available in Git : that's cool, but maybe a Gitorious would be even better ? Feb 15 12:52:55 so you intend to use Qt's OGL interface? Feb 15 12:52:56 Now I really gotta dust up my QT skills... lol Feb 15 12:53:14 nitpicking: it's Qt Feb 15 12:53:17 it's a trademark Feb 15 12:53:19 What's QuickTime for to do with anything? ;) Feb 15 12:53:20 thiago: apols Feb 15 12:53:26 anyone know how the merge will affect maemo.org site ? Feb 15 12:53:29 ;) Feb 15 12:53:32 QT != Qt Feb 15 12:53:35 Netrum: i think that's up to the community. Feb 15 12:53:35 ;) Feb 15 12:53:37 th0br0: When necessary, current prototype map renderer for Maemo/N900 runs fine in either OpenGL or raster mode, using QPainter. Feb 15 12:53:56 th0br0: But I'm sure it could be faster using OpenGL ES directly, but we'll do that only when necessary. Feb 15 12:54:13 ok Feb 15 12:54:13 will need to investigate Qt dev for SYm^3 and Meego. Fun times! Feb 15 12:54:28 and has there been any offical nokia response to what will happen to the n900? Feb 15 12:54:36 bleeter: yeah. i'm really wondering why nokia is continuing with Symbian ... Feb 15 12:54:37 Symbian < Maemo/MeeGo Feb 15 12:54:38 N900 continues what it is Feb 15 12:54:50 thebootroo: Symbian is definitely much worse to develop for Feb 15 12:54:52 like the N770 Feb 15 12:55:01 but... there are 120 million of those devices out there where Qt runs on Feb 15 12:55:15 the objective is to get developers to write apps for Symbian *and* MeeGo Feb 15 12:55:19 th0br0 : i agree, nokia would drop symbian and boost maemo/meego/moblin Feb 15 12:55:33 thiago: yep Feb 15 12:55:39 thiago: true, that's Qt objective Feb 15 12:55:41 thebootroo: i guess you underestimate how big Nokia and Symbian are:) Feb 15 12:55:47 no Feb 15 12:55:52 i know symbian Feb 15 12:56:09 Nokia's not the only Symbian user. And now Symbian's open, doesn't really matter. Feb 15 12:56:12 but maemo = Linux = better than old epoc os revamped Feb 15 12:56:33 Both are meant to be Qt capable, so should be good for all application developers Feb 15 12:56:43 ive used symbian since 2005 (nokia 3250) resently had a 5800. and there were almost no visiual changes. Nor were there any major changes to the meny structure. So yes drop symbian infavour for meego or maemo Feb 15 12:56:50 stuff that's good for application developers is good for hardware vendors. so doesn't really matter Feb 15 12:56:51 Nokia today IS the only symbian user : other vendors are switching on Android or Bada (linux in all cases) Feb 15 12:57:23 Netrum: i confirm : i've got a 5800XM before having a N900 Feb 15 12:57:28 Samsung has everything Feb 15 12:57:37 I had a 5MX Feb 15 12:57:38 they have WinMo, Symbian, Bada and Android Feb 15 12:57:42 and their own OS Feb 15 12:57:45 and N900 is really FAR better, even if it lacks a lot of features Feb 15 12:57:47 'til some theiving bastard broke in and stole it :( Feb 15 12:57:56 I suppose this move was made to target the upcoming thread of Bada OS Feb 15 12:58:01 Motorola is... a sad story Feb 15 12:58:29 mhm Feb 15 12:58:37 moo, slono Feb 15 12:58:45 thiago: you could also argue that that's too much. Feb 15 12:58:58 and that they'll have to decide for one or two in the future Feb 15 12:59:15 Anyone knows what distributin Meego will be based on? Feb 15 12:59:19 Debian or Redhat? Feb 15 12:59:21 RST38h: MeeGo is a distribution Feb 15 12:59:30 RST38h: not Debian, it's .rpm based Feb 15 12:59:30 RST38h: itself Feb 15 12:59:38 gah Feb 15 12:59:43 arrrggh Feb 15 12:59:49 thiago: are you packaging glibc from scratch? Feb 15 12:59:51 hard to believe Feb 15 13:00:09 azeem: . Feb 15 13:00:12 azeem: why not? Feb 15 13:00:25 enough resources -> why not indeed. Feb 15 13:00:27 thiago: useless waste of engineer power Feb 15 13:00:27 azeem: packaging glibc isn't rocket surgery Feb 15 13:00:31 not that I'd oppose basing on Debian :P Feb 15 13:00:32 but ok, if you do Feb 15 13:00:36 azeem: why? Feb 15 13:00:40 THAT is bad : .deb is better ! But RPM has lovers too, so why not using PackageKit, to be able to use both .deb and .rpm ? Feb 15 13:00:54 thebootroo: how does that solve interdependency issues? Feb 15 13:01:01 No, really RedHat? Feb 15 13:01:17 well, I suppose discussion b/w rpm ws. deb is done already, no amount of complaint is going to change that Feb 15 13:01:26 RST38h: moblin's really a different creature than RH Feb 15 13:01:30 It is not even the rpm that is a problem Feb 15 13:01:45 moblin is based on Fedora, according to people in here Feb 15 13:01:50 Stskeeps: How different? My personal experience with RedHat shows that it is a terrible mess Feb 15 13:01:52 yes i know Feb 15 13:02:00 but maemo is based on debian Feb 15 13:02:02 technical: do current moblin apps care about rootfs size? is this a specific maemoism or we we have a whole other kettle of fish to deal with Feb 15 13:02:04 azeem: Oh I know what Moblin is based on Feb 15 13:02:12 More interested what meeGo will be based on Feb 15 13:02:24 here i am Feb 15 13:02:31 yay Feb 15 13:02:39 so exiting project ! Feb 15 13:02:45 somebody could add a link to the FAQ to the /topic Feb 15 13:02:45 RST38h: at least MeeGo will use RPM.... /me already sees MeeGo becoming crappy as all the RPM based distributions ;-( Feb 15 13:02:45 RST38h: FreeBSD Feb 15 13:02:51 Stskeeps: ^^ Feb 15 13:03:01 Stskeeps: is there a place for mer in meego ? Feb 15 13:03:02 :) Feb 15 13:03:15 If meego is open, mer isn't needed, right? Feb 15 13:03:17 rzr: 'over there, behind the curtain' Feb 15 13:03:39 azeem: note that only Moblin reference implementation is based on Fedora. Feb 15 13:03:44 villemv: Mer will be the better sounding Meegoo ;) Feb 15 13:03:54 But yes - if meego is really open - ... Feb 15 13:03:55 villemv: i just got the announcement today, but i posted initial response at http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=527268&postcount=94 Feb 15 13:04:00 MerGo Feb 15 13:04:09 MerGoo Feb 15 13:04:25 MoarGoo Feb 15 13:04:26 just to keep it sounding a bit silly. :D Feb 15 13:04:51 MeerO Feb 15 13:04:58 :D Feb 15 13:04:59 * eliasp would love MeeGentoo with a portage based PMS Feb 15 13:05:00 ;) Feb 15 13:05:12 let's make a blocker bug: "the name is silly" Feb 15 13:05:18 Stskeeps: well put Feb 15 13:05:27 Mer should merge with MeeGo in future cause of openness Feb 15 13:05:33 damit i failed my registration ? Feb 15 13:05:38 http://2dboy.com/games.php - clearly should be another strategic partner for UI development. Feb 15 13:05:42 "MeeGo builds upon the Moblin core software platform and reference user experiences, adding the Qt UI toolkit from Maemo." <== So, it is Moblin using Qt ? Feb 15 13:05:53 any website managers ? Feb 15 13:05:53 RST38h: yes Feb 15 13:05:53 RST38h: seems so Feb 15 13:06:10 it's good to see Linuces OSes merging to allie powers and developpers Feb 15 13:06:38 Stskeeps,lbt: Then, what is the point? =) Feb 15 13:06:54 collaboration Feb 15 13:07:01 RST38h: it's a well needed reset of the platform and collaboration. Feb 15 13:07:05 as well as fully open source. Feb 15 13:07:17 Stskeeps: Well, let us see... Feb 15 13:07:25 there's a lot more openness planned Feb 15 13:07:34 developing the base OS in the open Feb 15 13:07:46 Stskeeps: End apps packaged with the system will be nokia proprietary anyway. The Qt toolkit is Nokia's. Feb 15 13:07:52 so for me Maemo + Moblin + Mer = MeeGo Feb 15 13:07:57 if your answering questions: will the N900 be supported? Feb 15 13:08:01 Stskeeps: The base OS, Debian or RedHat, is free Feb 15 13:08:06 DerSaidin: nothing's official of what any of us say :P Feb 15 13:08:18 DerSaidin: I will personally try to port MeeGo to N900 if noone else does :P Feb 15 13:08:22 Stskeeps: So, what value does Nokia get from it? -) Feb 15 13:08:37 RST38h: sell phones? Feb 15 13:08:40 RST38h: firing people? no idea ;p Feb 15 13:08:58 Stskeeps : I will help you ! Feb 15 13:09:02 RST38h: bigger userbase? Feb 15 13:09:04 Stskeeps: ping when done , i'll request the port to htc devices then :) Feb 15 13:09:05 RST38h: a brider audience for the software Feb 15 13:09:07 Stskeeps: hit me up for bricking attempts in the port procedure :) Feb 15 13:09:11 villemv: Intel does not sell phones. Nokia does. Feb 15 13:09:12 s/brider/wider/ Feb 15 13:09:13 getting something up against the android threat? Feb 15 13:09:18 once the hardware's available... Feb 15 13:09:31 ElPollo,th0br0: What is the user base of Moblin again? Feb 15 13:09:38 freeedrich|: it s completly different .. Feb 15 13:09:45 that's actually in intel's interest too - I mean, android is "going everywhere". Feb 15 13:09:48 RST38h: geeks Feb 15 13:09:58 * RST38h does not know any geeks using Moblin Feb 15 13:10:01 RST38h: I have to pass on that. Feb 15 13:10:03 RST38h: oh i do Feb 15 13:10:08 he is a kernel .... Feb 15 13:10:13 Ok, we have got 1 (one) Feb 15 13:10:17 duh... andrew t. tann? Feb 15 13:10:19 I can't remember ever hearing of moblin Feb 15 13:10:34 oh greg kroah-hartmann, he uses moblin on his netbook. Feb 15 13:11:00 moblin has a nice UI and non-working pdf viewers =) Feb 15 13:11:04 :P Feb 15 13:11:05 Well, moblin was a bit of "homeless" project. Not anymore Feb 15 13:11:06 i've got a bunch of signatures by the Moblin team on a big beach ball, from Gran Canaria last summer... :) Feb 15 13:11:06 :D Feb 15 13:11:12 will websites be merged too ? Feb 15 13:11:22 rzr: i guess not anytime soon Feb 15 13:11:55 regarding N900 Feb 15 13:12:08 it should actually to be quite easy to make it MeeGo compatible Feb 15 13:12:20 i WANT MeeGo on my N900 ! Feb 15 13:12:24 to run the apps at least. Even without gutting the hildon destktop in any way Feb 15 13:12:47 Stskeeps: lets fork the unborn baby into debeego :) Feb 15 13:13:02 3 hours and we have our first fork proposal Feb 15 13:13:04 impressive. Feb 15 13:13:04 :P Feb 15 13:13:09 and use "alien" to install the rpms Feb 15 13:13:09 dingoo? Feb 15 13:13:15 i want to be able to developp easily Qt apps for my N900 with QtCreator, so installing MeeGo could be a quite good option Feb 15 13:13:25 tybollt: debian roots , not rpm Feb 15 13:13:26 find -name *.rpm -exec alien -k {} Feb 15 13:13:31 \; Feb 15 13:13:36 RST38h, how does this work out for your apps? not being qt or even gtk) Feb 15 13:13:39 NO fork : just porting PackageKit Feb 15 13:14:01 to use both Debs and Rpms Feb 15 13:14:18 it"s not a good idea to fork a merged project Feb 15 13:14:20 thebootroo: "alien" is enouch for that Feb 15 13:14:28 just kinding ... Feb 15 13:15:05 but this will be helpfull when it'll merge with ubuntu :) Feb 15 13:15:18 :D :D :D :D Feb 15 13:15:21 thiago: FUCK PackageKit. Feb 15 13:15:26 why ? Feb 15 13:15:30 It's ... a utter piece of shit. Feb 15 13:15:31 lcuk: I do not really give a shit what it is: my stuff works on platforms that have no OS at all Feb 15 13:15:44 th0br0 : i disagree Feb 15 13:15:56 I'm for: "back to the console rootz" Feb 15 13:16:03 RST38h, i tohught as much Feb 15 13:16:18 what about distribution, are your apps in ovi store atm? Feb 15 13:16:22 th0br0: it's the result of a need of unity between linux packaging systems : it's a good point Feb 15 13:16:24 can other open source apps exist there Feb 15 13:16:55 hi guys, just a quick question: do you think MeeGo would be easly installable on Samsung Omnia 1? Feb 15 13:17:04 lcuk: Nope, I do not think Ovi store will go anywhere Feb 15 13:17:06 M61: why not ? Feb 15 13:17:09 M61: if it's a high-end device, probably Feb 15 13:17:19 thebootroo: if it matters about Qt : http://digg.com/search?s=Qt+Port+to+Android+ Feb 15 13:17:25 M61: if it's not restricted by Samsung, yes Feb 15 13:17:30 what's that? ARM? Cortex-A8? Snapdragon? Or is that Atom? Feb 15 13:17:33 do we expect similar community repository in the heady days of meego ? Feb 15 13:17:39 lcuk: yes Feb 15 13:17:42 rzr: i hate Android i dont want it Feb 15 13:17:52 cool, that's the point, I was thinking if Samsung was in some way restricting the installation on hardware Feb 15 13:18:09 thiago thats good at least Feb 15 13:18:09 M61 :maybe but you could hack it Feb 15 13:18:10 M61: if I'd have to guess they are restricting Feb 15 13:18:28 supporting gtk/other frameworks? Feb 15 13:18:29 and then eventually the possibility to restore the original Win Mobile default Feb 15 13:18:32 how does intel atom processors fit-in the picture? Feb 15 13:18:33 I'm sure Nokia and Intel will offer something to replace it with :) Feb 15 13:18:34 of meego Feb 15 13:18:40 lcuk: it's X11-based, so if you want to use it, do it Feb 15 13:18:48 I am, of course, biased towards Qt Feb 15 13:18:49 oh this channel filled up quite fast Feb 15 13:18:52 X86 processors vs ARM :l? Feb 15 13:18:53 heh Feb 15 13:18:59 i thought you were an SDL guy :p Feb 15 13:19:08 jmk: 3 hours to get 166 people Feb 15 13:19:08 can I just say I really hate X11... ;) Feb 15 13:19:08 :P Feb 15 13:19:12 Stskeeps: heh - so I can talk about most of our work now too :) Feb 15 13:19:25 stskeeps: hehe. arjan here? Feb 15 13:20:05 jmk: no idea, when i arrived straight at announcement, this place was empty :) Feb 15 13:21:08 lbt: at this point you can talk about what's on meego.com, but in principle yes... Feb 15 13:21:13 I've been having this upstart|sv-init argument with him lately and I was wondering I could reach him from here.. Feb 15 13:21:18 So, who is with me to open a project in MeeGo garage to ease up MeeGo testing on N900 ? Feb 15 13:21:46 thebootroo: let's wait for the code first Feb 15 13:21:47 there is no meego garage yet Feb 15 13:21:48 Mirv: Marc gave us the OK with some caveats in our meeting Feb 15 13:21:59 lbt: yep Feb 15 13:22:07 so star talking! Feb 15 13:22:13 and what caveats? Feb 15 13:22:29 so moblin is built on OBS Feb 15 13:22:37 Gone midnight, got a bunch of papers to write. Looking forward to hacking with you folks in the future. Announcement is brilliant news. Cheers! Feb 15 13:23:00 OBS? Feb 15 13:23:26 open build system Feb 15 13:23:26 opensuse build service? Feb 15 13:23:31 yes Feb 15 13:23:32 ok Feb 15 13:23:40 not that thrilling :) Feb 15 13:23:47 it's clearer when referred to as open build system ;) Feb 15 13:23:57 but it indicates how the autobuilder future looks Feb 15 13:24:06 (yay OBS!) Feb 15 13:24:14 and it will be hugely relevant for app developers Feb 15 13:24:15 hi there... the faq mentions that Meego will be rpm-based and not deb-based.. Isn't it one of the powers of maemo, that it is deb based (with apt and so forth?) Feb 15 13:24:44 engadget does whine: http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/15/meego-nokia-and-intel-merge-maemo-and-moblin/?s=t5 Feb 15 13:24:59 * wstephenson hears OBS and pricks up his ears Feb 15 13:25:00 aagren: the same can be done with rpm Feb 15 13:25:14 wstephenson: :) Feb 15 13:25:15 aagren: the flexibility and feature are not a property of deb Feb 15 13:25:34 wstephenson: yeah, didn't anyone tell you that you'll be doing the building? :-P Feb 15 13:25:34 hey ! i just realize something : MeeGo will be ARM and X86 ? so we could have it on an EEE pc for example ! I really want to have mAemo on a eee 701 but i cant, so i hpoe it will be possible with meego ! Feb 15 13:25:47 wstephenson: what's your involvement? Feb 15 13:25:52 thebootroo: MeeGo will be ARM and x86 Feb 15 13:25:58 and MIPS if anyone wants to do it Feb 15 13:26:13 useless no ? Feb 15 13:26:17 Qt for Embedded Linux runs also on PPC Feb 15 13:26:17 there aren't many MIPS devices out there though, are there? Feb 15 13:26:18 so you can flash it on iPad? ;-) Feb 15 13:26:25 haha villemv Feb 15 13:26:25 :D Feb 15 13:26:26 that'd be funny Feb 15 13:26:27 now to get nit-picky - ARM means a lot of things :) Feb 15 13:26:30 lbt: travelling the world telling people how good the OBS is lately Feb 15 13:26:33 do you mean >= ARMv7? Feb 15 13:26:37 ah, me too :) Feb 15 13:26:42 MeeGo on iDevice loooooooooooool Feb 15 13:26:48 not possible Feb 15 13:26:56 thebootroo: sure it is Feb 15 13:26:59 no Feb 15 13:27:00 lbt: and maintaining kde on opensuse and starting a community to help there witht he OBS Feb 15 13:27:08 apple devices are too closed Feb 15 13:27:16 first, squash one idevice.... then put an N900 on the crushed remains Feb 15 13:27:19 lbt: i was just asking darix and prusnak who _you_ are #opensuse-side ;) Feb 15 13:27:46 hehe Feb 15 13:27:51 wstephenson: we built Mer on obs Feb 15 13:28:07 the community backport of Maemo to other devices Feb 15 13:28:15 yep understood. i knew there were some masked superheroes behind that but handn't looked too closely Feb 15 13:28:25 heh Feb 15 13:28:29 definitely this chan will get BIG Feb 15 13:28:35 what the... ? Feb 15 13:28:45 i was always meaning to get my n810 working again and try the Mer packages, then i got a n900. Feb 15 13:28:48 javispedro: yeah, 177 users in 3 hours :P Feb 15 13:28:49 M61: yes, we need meego-devel and others soonish I think Feb 15 13:28:58 Any chance MeeGo, or a legacy version of MeeGo running on my n810? Feb 15 13:29:08 and on my toaster? Feb 15 13:29:11 * leinir thinks that needs to go into the topic ;) Feb 15 13:29:21 wstephenson: heh, yes. We're going to have to revisit Mer on older devices now Feb 15 13:29:30 puelocesar: I don't think even Fremantle runs on the N810 Feb 15 13:29:38 javispedro: or my glasses! ;) Feb 15 13:29:48 M61: no, this channel will just get HUGE ! Feb 15 13:30:03 hehe Feb 15 13:30:04 infobot: ping Feb 15 13:30:05 meego has better shot at runningn on n810 than fremantle, actually Feb 15 13:30:14 villemv: GLES is a problem Feb 15 13:30:17 javispedro: still missing :( Feb 15 13:30:18 N810 is OMAP2 Feb 15 13:30:19 puelocesar: no legacy version cause it's not even released ! Feb 15 13:30:26 villemv: yes it has Feb 15 13:30:31 lbt: he'll lose all the interesting bits! Feb 15 13:30:31 Stskeeps: perhaps they don't force composited ui on meego? Feb 15 13:30:36 is there any decision on packaging format? RPM or deb? Feb 15 13:30:39 Stskeeps: once you pass on ownership of #meego, notice me... i've done the same to #meego-devel should there exist some interest in it Feb 15 13:30:39 where's the logging bot. Feb 15 13:30:45 th0br0: will do Feb 15 13:30:45 Ryback_: yes, RPM Feb 15 13:30:50 javispedro: Stskeeps has the logs in his client Feb 15 13:30:51 thiago: ok, thanks Feb 15 13:31:10 thiago: and it's a goal to support more archs than just x86? Feb 15 13:31:15 Ryback_: yes, ARM Feb 15 13:31:19 at least ARM Feb 15 13:31:27 thiago: hm, ok. obrigado ;-) Feb 15 13:31:32 if people want to support more, they can contribute to maintainership Feb 15 13:31:33 lbt: so you're going to have libzypp on meego to make working with rpm rock, i hope? Feb 15 13:31:57 thiago: as always :-) Feb 15 13:31:57 what is libzypp ? Feb 15 13:32:04 that's a meego thing --- I heard zypper mentioned I think Feb 15 13:32:29 zypper is a opensuse thingy Feb 15 13:32:34 their 'yum' Feb 15 13:32:38 thebootroo: the dependency resolver library on opensuse Feb 15 13:32:48 zypper is the yum/apt-* tool Feb 15 13:33:10 opensuse wrote it to make rpm hell go away Feb 15 13:33:25 ok Feb 15 13:33:31 and because the old yast+redcarpet stuff was extremely slow Feb 15 13:33:35 a little like alien or pkgkit Feb 15 13:33:41 ? Feb 15 13:34:05 what ? rpm has NOT deps solving ? Feb 15 13:34:06 the yast team borrowed a couple of compiler team guys to get the best algorithms Feb 15 13:34:20 thebootroo: neither has dpkg Feb 15 13:34:25 thebootroo: It has the same deps solving as dpkg has. Feb 15 13:34:30 thebootroo: no, same layer as apt-get and apt-cache Feb 15 13:34:37 ok Feb 15 13:34:46 a .deb is exactly like a .rpm - a blob of data with some metadata attached to it Feb 15 13:34:49 Nothing more, nothing less Feb 15 13:34:56 so what is apt equivalent for rpm ? Feb 15 13:34:58 So yes it knows about dependencies which have to be there. And it screams if they aren't installed. Feb 15 13:35:14 thebootroo: yum, zypper, apt, smart. Feb 15 13:35:20 apt ? Feb 15 13:35:21 but apparently red hat "blesses" every .rpm with urine, judging by the reaction to it here ;-) Feb 15 13:35:26 thebootroo: apt-rpm Feb 15 13:35:27 apt4rpm Feb 15 13:35:30 oki Feb 15 13:35:34 cool Feb 15 13:35:50 so which one will MeeGo be running ? Feb 15 13:35:55 villemv: and opensuse spreads ours with ballmer's sweat ;) Feb 15 13:35:56 villemv: I suggest to package emacs *and* vim, too. Feb 15 13:36:16 range: qemacs, huh? Feb 15 13:36:30 th0br0 : sure Feb 15 13:36:36 ;) Feb 15 13:36:48 so i can replace ubuntu on my laptop with meego? Feb 15 13:36:54 maybe ? Feb 15 13:36:59 meego doesn't exist yet Feb 15 13:37:04 lcuk: here's hoping, in the long run Feb 15 13:37:07 or are we still talking finger optimized apps Feb 15 13:37:17 will meego support ALL X86 or just Atom like Moblien ? Feb 15 13:37:22 they have 2 ui profiles i think Feb 15 13:37:45 lcuk: who knows what meego is all about? :) Feb 15 13:37:48 http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture Feb 15 13:38:01 "Meego Netbook UX" Feb 15 13:38:21 and "Meego HandHeld UX" (==harmattan? ;-) Feb 15 13:38:42 meego netbook Ux will be moblin UI ? and Handheld ui will be hildon ui ? Feb 15 13:38:44 7 Feb 15 13:38:47 sry Feb 15 13:38:55 hildon is maemo 5 Feb 15 13:38:57 hildon? hopefully not Feb 15 13:38:57 :P Feb 15 13:39:04 javispedro, im just trying to see, hence the question :) Feb 15 13:39:06 so hildon qt equivalent Feb 15 13:39:19 not the real hildon i know Feb 15 13:39:23 hildon is Gtk Feb 15 13:40:45 QML hopefully Feb 15 13:40:51 not QML Feb 15 13:40:57 C++/Qt Feb 15 13:40:59 <|R> so, any news on MeeGo on N900? (/me ducks hehe) Feb 15 13:41:04 we should just wait and stop speculating ... Feb 15 13:41:17 QML is good for gadget or little apps but not for entire UX Feb 15 13:41:21 IMHO Feb 15 13:41:55 |R: i think yes Feb 15 13:42:11 |R: http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/10813.html Feb 15 13:42:12 th0br0 : what ??? wait ?? O.o Feb 15 13:43:00 hi Stskeeps, others Feb 15 13:43:11 th0br0: speculating's fun. it stops me from writing these papers ;) Feb 15 13:43:30 lo Tm_T Feb 15 13:43:30 <|R> chx: uhm, "builds on..." hopefully? I hope they release those damn drivers and pwn the market :P Feb 15 13:43:48 so wha't's up regarding http://ofono.org/ ? Feb 15 13:44:10 is oFono an official part of Meego ? Feb 15 13:44:20 <|R> surely must be at some point Feb 15 13:44:22 on moblin actually, which is the communication framework ? Telepathy or any other ? cause telepathy is a very good one and i wouls love to see it as default in MeeGo . .. Feb 15 13:44:33 <|R> it's already an intel & nokia joint venture Feb 15 13:44:41 |R: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=527251&postcount=87 Feb 15 13:44:57 <|R> thebootroo: does moblin uses something else% Feb 15 13:44:58 <|R> ? Feb 15 13:45:24 i dont know, i asked ... Feb 15 13:45:32 reads to me that ofono is where intel and nokia started chatting, and meego is where they ended up Feb 15 13:45:33 <|R> chx: sweet :) Feb 15 13:45:56 :P bleeter Feb 15 13:45:57 same here kinda. Feb 15 13:46:13 although in my case it's doing boring relation models fro school -.- Feb 15 13:46:18 good question, telepathy... I don't think telepathy actually has competition? Feb 15 13:46:36 Of course not! Transmitting messages mentally just rocks after all ;) Feb 15 13:47:22 :D Feb 15 13:47:40 so it will be Telepathy on MeeGo too ? Feb 15 13:47:45 logically ... Feb 15 13:47:49 <|R> chx: so am i to understand that they're opening up _all_ the lower stack from that post? :) Feb 15 13:48:03 <|R> Mer vs MeeGo suggestion sounds awkward (well good) Feb 15 13:48:05 |R: No idea. Feb 15 13:48:38 Mer should merge into MeeGo and give it its name IMO ! Feb 15 13:48:47 <|R> haha Feb 15 13:48:52 MerGo? Feb 15 13:48:53 |R: i'd like to think that our work with OBS and working the machine room has helped shape MeeGo. Feb 15 13:48:57 GoMer ! Feb 15 13:49:01 would be logical name, being a merge after all Feb 15 13:49:05 <|R> Stskeeps: OBS? :) Feb 15 13:49:11 |R: open build service Feb 15 13:49:19 <|R> ok :) Feb 15 13:49:23 after mergo, just need to find some 'kin' thing and be MerKin Feb 15 13:49:29 Moblin + Maemo + Mer = 3xM = 3M :x Feb 15 13:49:35 haha Feb 15 13:49:44 Mean Feb 15 13:49:45 then let's just call it PostIt Feb 15 13:49:46 any intel folks here or is this just externals now :) ? Feb 15 13:49:52 <|R> M³ Feb 15 13:49:55 jmk: Intel folk are sleeping Feb 15 13:49:56 th0br0 : lol Feb 15 13:49:59 jmk: dirk_gone for instance Feb 15 13:50:02 sleep is for the weak! Feb 15 13:50:08 it's 6 am in the West Cosat Feb 15 13:50:14 and it's a day off Feb 15 13:50:22 Maerblin ! Feb 15 13:50:27 someone should go to west coast and wake some of them up Feb 15 13:50:38 <|R> Maerlo Feb 15 13:50:43 villemv: best connection flight from Oslo is 15 hours Feb 15 13:50:43 its 14:50 pm here in France Feb 15 13:50:49 real intel folks should work EVEN on there day off Feb 15 13:51:00 | R : quite good Feb 15 13:51:08 thebootroo: when using 24h time you don't need to specify 'pm' :) Feb 15 13:51:13 bva: dirkhh was awake up until a few hours ago (2 am Sunday to day off) Feb 15 13:51:21 meuh: :) Feb 15 13:51:33 TBH though, the thing will be if governance will work, or there will have to be community-governed MeeGo. Feb 15 13:51:36 they should at least have stayed up to drink & celebrate this event Feb 15 13:52:11 Linux Foundation Feb 15 13:52:19 yes, it does sound fancy but.. Feb 15 13:52:19 :P Feb 15 13:52:22 Meeblo ? Maerin ? Mobler ? Meeer ? Feb 15 13:52:36 QtOS ? Feb 15 13:52:42 :D Feb 15 13:52:51 http://meego.com/about/governance Feb 15 13:52:54 I still fancy DinGoo Feb 15 13:52:59 and make it a QtOS-phone Feb 15 13:53:08 QtPhone ? Feb 15 13:53:11 QTopia? Feb 15 13:53:13 <|R> tybollt: did they get the World of Goo dev on board? ahah Feb 15 13:53:14 no Feb 15 13:53:45 oGeeM ? Feb 15 13:54:05 Greenphone Feb 15 13:54:07 Meamo. Typo intended. Feb 15 13:54:25 Mearblim ? Feb 15 13:55:16 1 Feb 15 13:55:24 thiago: there is the GeekPhone One already. Feb 15 13:55:31 what's a "CTCP VERSION"? Feb 15 13:55:39 Will Meego be able to run iPhone apps? I would really love that. Especially now that Plants vs Zombies is available for it. Feb 15 13:56:17 buli : no Feb 15 13:56:28 that's a weird question. Feb 15 13:56:28 iphone runtime is apple closed Feb 15 13:56:30 buli_: iPhone is bsd based and most apps are closed source, so no Feb 15 13:56:32 question re MeeGo: will there be a release suitable for the Nokia N810? Feb 15 13:56:39 maybe Feb 15 13:56:40 clanger: noone knows Feb 15 13:57:05 hmmm ... I might be losing interest! Thanks for the replies Feb 15 13:57:06 clanger: if someone makes it Feb 15 13:57:20 I doubt that Nokia will, since not even Fremantle runs on that Feb 15 13:57:29 but N810 isn't a little under-powered for actual OS ? Feb 15 13:57:43 it's Linux-based Feb 15 13:57:45 it's Maemo 4 Feb 15 13:57:51 yes Feb 15 13:57:51 thiago - time and wisdom aren't on my side for that eventuality! Feb 15 13:57:54 but yes, it's underpowered Feb 15 13:58:39 it have what ? 128MB of internal memory ? and 128MB of RAM ? a 300 or 400 mhz processor ? Feb 15 13:58:44 thebootroo - I use Maemo OS2008, will MeeGo be much more complex? Feb 15 13:58:54 i think Feb 15 13:58:56 it's OMAP2 (2420) Feb 15 13:59:06 it will use 3D effects, Feb 15 13:59:07 I don't remember RAM and flash Feb 15 13:59:12 ok Feb 15 13:59:13 * thiago has an N800 on his desk Feb 15 13:59:43 * thebootroo is writing from his N900 ;-) Feb 15 13:59:55 128MB RAM, 256MB flash I think on the N810? Feb 15 14:00:10 lle2: something like thaht yes Feb 15 14:00:54 of course you get the mmc Feb 15 14:00:58 since MeeGo will support X86, we will be able to test early releases on VirtualBox , Feb 15 14:01:01 ? Feb 15 14:01:15 we should be able to, sohuldn't we? Feb 15 14:01:19 thebootroo: if not, let's make it possible? Feb 15 14:01:27 yes ! Feb 15 14:01:44 if x= Feb 15 14:01:47 thebootroo - good idea Feb 15 14:02:00 if we have source code we can do almost everthing !* Feb 15 14:02:17 th0br0: releases of what? Feb 15 14:02:21 of MeeGo? Feb 15 14:02:27 yes Feb 15 14:02:30 I'd also like to see intallation options - ie not just the 'all or nothing' you get with ubuntu and others Feb 15 14:02:39 alpha and beta and rc ... Feb 15 14:02:52 clanger: that's possible. There's an image creator for Moblin already. Feb 15 14:02:57 cool Feb 15 14:03:18 d-.-b Feb 15 14:03:24 this is for device creators, though Feb 15 14:03:40 we are all devices creators no ? Feb 15 14:03:47 <|R> Ubuntu will hopefully join Meego Feb 15 14:03:51 not necessarily Feb 15 14:03:54 we could be app creators Feb 15 14:03:57 No, please god, don't have Ubuntu do that. Feb 15 14:04:00 thiago - thanks, I'll have a look at (the entrails of) Moblin - bye for now Feb 15 14:04:01 <|R> haha Feb 15 14:04:05 <|R> th0br0: why not? :) Feb 15 14:04:07 welcome to the 200th user in the channel! :-) Feb 15 14:04:12 Because Ubuntu is a horrible abomination. Feb 15 14:04:13 Ok, so, time to cross pollinate some info. Moblin people, what's the community been like? On the organizing side and with the spiritual? Feb 15 14:04:33 On Maemo.org we've had some problems with the sudden influx of people Feb 15 14:04:34 <|R> th0br0: urhm, well, they're pretty much the only mainstream distro Feb 15 14:04:38 hi, people! Feb 15 14:04:39 And they suck. Feb 15 14:04:51 (IMHO.) Feb 15 14:04:55 <|R> (coming from someone who runs them on laptop and HTPC but prefer debian on his desktop/gateway) Feb 15 14:05:11 ;) I'm just not part of the audience they target. Feb 15 14:05:12 <|R> th0br0: why? Feb 15 14:05:17 Hukka: today? Or in general? Feb 15 14:05:21 <|R> hehe, well... Feb 15 14:05:23 In general Feb 15 14:05:32 I really don't have any feeling of moblin community Feb 15 14:05:33 <|R> I think they do a great job for mainstreaming linux Feb 15 14:05:47 I never heard of a moblin community either Feb 15 14:05:48 Maybe, but there is no real community there. Feb 15 14:05:49 I've only read about the cool techs Intel has taken to work on graphics and bootup speed Feb 15 14:05:53 (there = Ubuntu) Feb 15 14:05:56 But nothing what's it like to be a dev over there Feb 15 14:05:59 sudden influx of people should not be a problem... just dealing with it might be. Feb 15 14:06:14 (in general, not talking about MeeGo in specific) Feb 15 14:06:18 <|R> Ubuntu has a big community of supporters, at least i feel it while searching for help and all on that variant Feb 15 14:06:30 Lynoure: Problem with, not a problem of Feb 15 14:06:52 <|R> And they haven't done too many stupid moves Feb 15 14:07:04 I'm talking about the websites being down, repos being down, build system being down, of course Feb 15 14:07:10 I haven't met *any* of their supporters at FOSDEM or the past LinuxTag tbh Feb 15 14:07:18 Ah well, there were 2 guys at FOSDEM. Feb 15 14:07:32 Hukka: ah, having one more big company involved ought to help that with more resources. Feb 15 14:07:39 But I mean... hell, you don't need that crappy control pannel and ... ... ... -.- ^^ Feb 15 14:07:44 It's just a personal dislike. Feb 15 14:07:59 But I've got Fedora, so just ignore my rants. Feb 15 14:08:32 |R: I think Ubuntu can become MeeGo-compliant just as they've experienced with Moblin-compliancy, if vendors want that Feb 15 14:08:39 Lynoure: Well yeah, but I'm also trying to get the feeling how Intel has handled things so far Feb 15 14:08:54 {{-X- Feb 15 14:09:19 th0br0: will do ;) Feb 15 14:09:32 <|R> Mirv: :) Feb 15 14:09:34 :P mirv Feb 15 14:10:13 th0br0: if you dislike ubuntu , you may like my own OS i'm creating on ubuntu with Qt4 : http://modern-os.projects.servhome.org/news-item?id=59 (sorry it's in french) Feb 15 14:10:29 heh Feb 15 14:10:33 we should base this on gentoo Feb 15 14:10:35 * tigert runs Feb 15 14:10:39 Oh I'm pretty fluent in French Feb 15 14:10:46 <|R> haha Feb 15 14:10:46 tigert: --> [] Feb 15 14:10:50 tigert++ Feb 15 14:10:56 * |R slaps tigert with a big large trout :P Feb 15 14:10:57 whatever works is fine with me Feb 15 14:11:00 Doesn't look too bad thgouh, only reminds me of Chrome OS kinda Feb 15 14:11:17 slackware rules though Feb 15 14:11:29 not ChromeOS cause not Cloud OS (i hate cloud idea) Feb 15 14:11:46 <|R> As long as there is apt-get and dpkg ... Feb 15 14:11:50 tigert: why not BSD .?????? Feb 15 14:11:56 .... ---->[] Feb 15 14:12:01 |R: MeeGo will probably not have dpkg Feb 15 14:12:11 * thebootroo is already so far away .... Feb 15 14:12:17 I vote for meego being based on Debian GNU/kFreeBSD! Feb 15 14:12:18 <|R> thiago: nooooo Feb 15 14:12:27 Mirv: it's not a vote Feb 15 14:12:35 Mirv: amigaos! Feb 15 14:12:36 Mirv: just for fun +1 Feb 15 14:12:41 <{{-X-}}> Mirv: : me too Feb 15 14:12:42 Mirv: yeah!! Feb 15 14:12:53 * lbt looks at thiago... :) Feb 15 14:13:01 *sniff* nobody else loves cp/m Feb 15 14:13:02 Stskeeps: NOOOOOOOO Feb 15 14:13:08 you can always try to port it yourself Feb 15 14:13:17 but i'm happy it's linux based Feb 15 14:13:24 * thiago goes back to building Qt 4.7 Feb 15 14:13:34 it'll take a while Feb 15 14:13:36 thiago: good luck Feb 15 14:13:48 thiago: any plans to modularise building Qt Feb 15 14:13:54 -1 Feb 15 14:13:56 lbt: at least webkit Feb 15 14:14:01 but the rest is very difficult Feb 15 14:14:05 *nod* Feb 15 14:14:08 Qt uses its own privates Feb 15 14:14:17 it would be nice to parallelise it Feb 15 14:14:22 thiago are you a qt team member ? Feb 15 14:14:27 it builds quite fast for me Feb 15 14:14:35 25% already Feb 15 14:14:36 thebootroo: yes Feb 15 14:14:38 it's a serious issue for the OBS Feb 15 14:14:39 heya Feb 15 14:14:39 cool Feb 15 14:14:50 are you on multi-core? Feb 15 14:14:53 thiago is not only a member but he's one of the 'The' members Feb 15 14:14:56 135-node compile farm Feb 15 14:15:10 doing make -j60 here Feb 15 14:15:15 thiago i'm glad to meet you Feb 15 14:15:17 thiago: ah :) Feb 15 14:15:20 but my machine can't drive more than 15-20 nodes Feb 15 14:15:22 i'm a qt lover Feb 15 14:15:24 duh, that is nasty, thiag Feb 15 14:15:25 o Feb 15 14:15:26 <3 Feb 15 14:15:28 yo eean :) Feb 15 14:15:34 o/ Feb 15 14:15:59 thiago: OK - I'll bear that in mind Feb 15 14:16:08 thiago : will QtMessaging be integrated in qt4.7 ? Feb 15 14:16:40 we can maybe have an OBS worker (16*16 core) dedicated to Qt Feb 15 14:16:47 or prioritised Feb 15 14:17:58 thiago: what is your nick on QtLabs ? Feb 15 14:19:04 Stskeeps: what the f you doing up there? Feb 15 14:19:36 crashanddie: he was the first to join this channel Feb 15 14:19:47 crashanddie: first member of channel, noone was here when i came, we registered channel - there's a very large chance of attacks/trolls after first 24 h of a new channel of this importance :P Feb 15 14:20:02 oh trolls are nice though. Feb 15 14:20:08 so i will deop after those 24 h and turn over channel to whatever community representants appear Feb 15 14:20:10 if they're good at their profession Feb 15 14:20:15 trolls are fun, don't forget to feed the trolls Feb 15 14:20:18 Stskeeps: oh sod off, you have no authority on either maemo, moblin or meego :P Feb 15 14:20:25 hey Stecchino Feb 15 14:20:31 * thebootroo want to shot th0br0 Feb 15 14:20:31 Seriously, .rpms?!?! Feb 15 14:20:33 crashanddie: dibs on irc authority! Feb 15 14:20:33 :P Feb 15 14:20:34 crashanddie: s/either/any of/ Feb 15 14:20:36 wait a sec. Qt Trolls or comment trolls? Feb 15 14:20:43 comment trolls Feb 15 14:20:46 we like the qt trolls Feb 15 14:20:46 * szbalint facepalms Feb 15 14:20:47 :P Feb 15 14:20:47 Qt Trolls of course Feb 15 14:20:47 in this channel people need to specify Feb 15 14:20:56 heh Feb 15 14:20:59 See? It's starting! Feb 15 14:21:01 Stecchino: no, in #qt they need to specify Feb 15 14:21:12 I guess there it's a given Feb 15 14:21:22 btw, I don't know if I'm happy or disgusted Feb 15 14:21:33 happily disgusted? Feb 15 14:21:35 who had the smart idea to ditch apt-get ? Feb 15 14:21:44 them! Feb 15 14:21:44 Hi! Feb 15 14:21:51 * szbalint blames them! Feb 15 14:21:56 apt-get can be used with rpm if that pleases you.. Feb 15 14:22:02 After all the time I've spent making sure I was the biggest, most infuriating troll in #maemo and tmo, with still moderator and operator rights, now the project falls out under my feet :( Feb 15 14:22:06 szbalint: no, we should congratulate them for such a great decision. Feb 15 14:22:06 not very well, though Feb 15 14:22:10 jmk, the problem is RMP Feb 15 14:22:14 *RPM Feb 15 14:22:26 it's no problem, it's everyone's salvation! Feb 15 14:22:40 well frankly, both deb and rpm suck, it's just that they suck at different places Feb 15 14:22:50 apt-get can be used to solve sudoku! Feb 15 14:22:56 apk ftw! Feb 15 14:23:00 maybe we can hack something better over time Feb 15 14:23:00 jmk, the level of suckiness of RPM has no limits Feb 15 14:23:03 zypper! Feb 15 14:23:13 port! Feb 15 14:23:52 no matter what you choose, someone will get upset :/ Feb 15 14:23:57 I think I'll be buying a E72 then, I'll miss N900 Feb 15 14:24:09 I'm slightly disappointed, I was hoping for a matured version of the n900, but if it won't be a debian derivative with a mobule ui, then it's worthless to me Feb 15 14:24:13 the_lord: you'd rather use 5 year old technology? Feb 15 14:24:19 the_lord: get some 5320 at least Feb 15 14:24:27 or a N900 Feb 15 14:24:33 crashanddie: awwww, here, a pink poneh for you! Feb 15 14:24:33 or a ... N900 Feb 15 14:24:34 Eeh 5230 Feb 15 14:24:40 jmk, you're right in that Feb 15 14:24:51 timeless_mbp, E72 is rather new Feb 15 14:24:52 or why not a N900 ? or even a N900 Feb 15 14:24:52 maemo 6 is still going to be debian based of course, that ship sailed a while ago. Feb 15 14:24:54 so no word on nmeego for N900? Feb 15 14:24:58 the_lord: the base for it is not Feb 15 14:25:02 maybe tarballs would be good for everyone :P Feb 15 14:25:10 or equally upsetting Feb 15 14:25:10 May the Tar be with you. Feb 15 14:25:13 tybollt: long distance messaging! Feb 15 14:25:13 jmk ->>> [] Feb 15 14:25:16 besides, meego as a name sucks. maemo is way better... Feb 15 14:25:22 szbalint: fact Feb 15 14:25:23 :) Feb 15 14:25:38 Now that is an interesting pun... Tar... Tzar, Force,... Feb 15 14:25:40 timeless_mbp, I won't be buying a N900 for several reasons, one of them is that the 3G bands wont work with my provider Feb 15 14:25:50 And heya timeless_mbp Feb 15 14:25:58 tybollt: please join again :) Feb 15 14:26:35 timeless_mbp, I could think of buying it if an OS upgrade to meego is in the plans Feb 15 14:26:41 jmk: or maybe ports!!1 lets compile everything on device.. like make it optimal? Feb 15 14:26:44 Duh, this app shop news is bad Feb 15 14:26:52 ? Feb 15 14:26:59 ?? Feb 15 14:27:00 the_lord: if your reason for not buying a model is the lack of 3g bands Feb 15 14:27:02 just say so Feb 15 14:27:03 http://android.appmobilize.com/mobile-news/3426/biggest-mobile-operators-join-forces-on-app-store-project Feb 15 14:27:05 hello th0br0 Feb 15 14:27:11 the_lord: actually not buying it due to your providor is a great reason Feb 15 14:27:13 why is that bad? Feb 15 14:27:13 fwiw, i had no knowledge of this when last we spoke Feb 15 14:27:23 haha, nbd :) Feb 15 14:27:40 th0br0 : it will be for Android no ? Feb 15 14:27:43 people should pick their network before they pick their phone, imo Feb 15 14:27:50 but then again, it's good that we didn't have that talk one week earlier. i'd have spent some time for nothing then ;) Feb 15 14:27:54 thebootroo: guess so... Feb 15 14:28:08 timeless_mbp: booo, be honest. Feb 15 14:28:30 th0br0: so it's not for us, we are using repositories, far better than stores ! Feb 15 14:28:32 tybollt: they don't tell us anything until they tell the customer Feb 15 14:28:41 true thebootroo Feb 15 14:28:42 "That will allow them to better compete against Apple's App Store or Google's Android Marke" Feb 15 14:28:44 timeless_mbp, I was thinking of buying it even without 3G, but now I'm stalled Feb 15 14:28:45 I think it's independent Feb 15 14:28:48 but it is a big competition Feb 15 14:28:51 though I have no clue what they use Feb 15 14:28:57 I guess I'll buy some wheels for my car instead Feb 15 14:29:02 soo... i just read about meego ... and i have one question Feb 15 14:29:05 ... why ? Feb 15 14:29:09 fear Feb 15 14:29:14 the_lord: cars should have wheels, yes. Feb 15 14:29:19 etamme: surely someone explained that in their announcement? Feb 15 14:29:22 yeah, a car without wheels is a better idea Feb 15 14:29:32 eean, some 'new' wheels Feb 15 14:29:33 thebootroo: I'm just "thiago" everywhere Feb 15 14:29:37 "merge the best of both projects" ... umm okay ... Feb 15 14:29:45 th0br0: its one of the reason for which one i have a n900 and no a Gphone or an iphone : i wanted apt repos instead of store Feb 15 14:29:50 why not just roll it in to maemo, which already has a hugely active development community Feb 15 14:29:52 the_lord: and honestly spending $500 on a phone that you can't use the 3g of ever is just stupid, so.. Feb 15 14:29:54 yeah thebootroo :) Feb 15 14:29:57 thebootroo: agreed Feb 15 14:30:01 and devices in the wild that actually run the software Feb 15 14:30:09 eean, I could change provider too Feb 15 14:30:22 ... i dont know any devices that run mobilin Feb 15 14:30:25 well then you should, if that makes sense. Feb 15 14:30:25 long live the N95 for now Feb 15 14:30:28 man... much as I love my n900, going back to my e90 even for 5 minutes to check some old calendar stuff is absolute paradise for a proper keyboard.. Feb 15 14:30:32 "We are taking the best pieces from these two open source projects and are creating the MeeGo software platform" - you do this by switching from .deb to .rpm? good grief... Feb 15 14:30:32 having needed to administer a couple of Redhat machines, i've developed a deep seething hatred for .rpm Feb 15 14:30:57 Synthaxx: why do we think meego is running rpm? I haven't seen anything that detailed about meego Feb 15 14:31:04 the_lord: same here. Feb 15 14:31:06 err Feb 15 14:31:11 thebootroo Feb 15 14:31:13 eean: "MeeGo will use the .rpm format" Feb 15 14:31:15 I think nokia traded the .deb -> .rpm transition for ARM support Feb 15 14:31:17 eean: FAQ Feb 15 14:31:18 i'm sure that we will have a trick to use apt on MeeGo Feb 15 14:31:19 http://meego.com/about/faq Feb 15 14:31:23 Stskeeps: ah okay Feb 15 14:31:23 timeless_mbp: like an corp I guess Feb 15 14:31:25 eean first of all because of the faq and because of diegohcg Feb 15 14:31:30 anyways rpm works great on opensuse. the package format doesn't matter, its more the tools that matter. Feb 15 14:31:47 eean: thank you. Feb 15 14:31:57 Stskeeps and Mer have been happily using OBS for a while Feb 15 14:31:58 wstephenson: haha :) Feb 15 14:32:07 afaiu, OBS is a shiny toolchain that actually works Feb 15 14:32:25 build system, rather :) Feb 15 14:32:26 timeless_mbp: not that it actually matters what packaging format is used with the OBS Feb 15 14:32:28 indeed, .deb or .rpm doesnt really matter Feb 15 14:32:35 dependency checking and internal package database consistency should be foremost, aptitude does that beautifully imho Feb 15 14:32:42 OBS builds happily rpm and deb packages now Feb 15 14:32:43 and as long as there is sourcecode, we can make ebuilds :) Feb 15 14:32:47 Synthaxx: so does zypper. Feb 15 14:32:52 yes, it matters. Feb 15 14:32:56 sure hope so Feb 15 14:33:02 a shitload of developers will have to repackage. Feb 15 14:33:04 so it mathers. Feb 15 14:33:07 so I guess the question is what install utility will they use. yum or zypper or nothing. Feb 15 14:33:13 s/... er.. missing infobot. Feb 15 14:33:23 learning a new package manager can't take more then an hour or so. Feb 15 14:33:26 yeah! meego should be a gentoo fork Feb 15 14:33:46 I never made a .deb before and just read the wiki, asked a question in #maemo, and now it's working. Feb 15 14:33:47 Shapeshifter: optifying takes less than a minute and see what happens. Feb 15 14:34:11 RPM == IE6 Feb 15 14:34:17 +1 Feb 15 14:34:21 it works, but it shouldn't exist Feb 15 14:34:25 deb == IE7 Feb 15 14:34:31 deb = firefox Feb 15 14:34:38 thebootroo: yeah, but the fact is there is a "trick" to get root access on an iphone too. I don't want a trick, I want it officially supported to have control. If I have to hack around to get it working, I can do that with the rest of the crippled stuff too Feb 15 14:34:39 having had to use it (albeit a while ago) i'd have to agree Feb 15 14:34:40 but not chromium Feb 15 14:34:44 deb == glazed donut Feb 15 14:34:45 it works, but it shouldn't exist either Feb 15 14:35:05 szbalint: but then u bring down the At&t network, we cannot have that! Feb 15 14:35:07 eean: fatty and sugary and generally bad for you? :) Feb 15 14:35:20 szbalint: so since MeeGo is opensource, why not make official support by ourselves ? Feb 15 14:35:28 oh I was just playing along with ridiculious analogies :) Feb 15 14:36:12 so is there any info on whether maemo 6 has now been canned in favor of this? Feb 15 14:36:16 thebootroo: yeah, there comes the difference between what you can buy in a shop vs what you can apply later Feb 15 14:36:31 yes Feb 15 14:36:32 eean: :) Feb 15 14:36:43 Synthaxx: it is not canned Feb 15 14:36:44 I wonder what politics were behind intel and moblin to switch from deb to rpm some year ago? Ubuntu used to be in the mix then.. Feb 15 14:36:48 phew Feb 15 14:36:50 I have a n900 because it's open and debian based right from the box. Feb 15 14:36:52 maemo 6 will be an instance of meego Feb 15 14:36:59 but if we make deb support in official tree, it will be shared on new devices no ? Feb 15 14:36:59 javispedro: alien? Feb 15 14:37:00 szbalint: exactly, same here Feb 15 14:37:29 I bought it because it's more or less generic linux Feb 15 14:37:34 timeless: what, you're suggesting yet another layer of abstraction in packaging? :) Feb 15 14:37:45 th0br0: yeah, when the system has been initialized (that is packages unpacked) systems are similar.. but add new packages to the system.. Feb 15 14:37:49 thebootroo: supporting multiple packaging formats on a single _mobile_ system is bad news Feb 15 14:38:06 why ? Feb 15 14:38:15 thebootroo: well Feb 15 14:38:17 it just have to be user-trasnparent Feb 15 14:38:19 thebootroo: a total mess Feb 15 14:38:27 for perspective, even getting ubuntu and debian packages to cooperate is hard Feb 15 14:38:40 each packager tends to arrange their package splits differently Feb 15 14:38:41 thebootroo: how should one manager modify the database of the other so that each knows what is installed and what not Feb 15 14:38:45 and whatever Feb 15 14:38:45 resulting in horrendous conflicts Feb 15 14:38:56 yes that's true Feb 15 14:38:57 thebootroo: you're inviting inconsistencies to mess up your system then Feb 15 14:38:57 you make both use a 3rd format internally :) Feb 15 14:38:58 that's what Packaging Guidelines are for :) Feb 15 14:39:06 so let switch again to deb Feb 15 14:39:07 I see three issues in horizon, same software on bigger and smaller screen - no go, software badly optimized for tiny battery (runs well on juicy intel).. Feb 15 14:39:14 and then thid deb rpm.. Feb 15 14:39:45 anyway, isn't it joyful there's a technical steering commitee that can decide these things instead of spending a lot of time on discussing this endlessly? Feb 15 14:39:46 you're talking about two wildly different processor archs, that's never gonna work Feb 15 14:39:49 :P Feb 15 14:39:49 thebootroo: fighting windmills is a waste of energy Feb 15 14:40:01 If there will be a council for this leego, couln't they make a switch to deb :) Feb 15 14:40:39 "Morbo: WINDMILLS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY" Feb 15 14:40:50 Stskeeps: and you know what people get when it is designed by comitee.. :) Feb 15 14:40:57 VRe: "I see three issues in horizon, same software on bigger and smaller screen " -> with qt you can design easily two Ui for your app Feb 15 14:41:27 thebootroo: yes, but I see, that that people are lazy and design only one Feb 15 14:41:48 Stskeeps: I hope the "technical steering committee" whacks people on the head with the cluestick and goes with .deb and therefor proper dependency management... Feb 15 14:41:57 VRe: the maemo council didn't have that much power in Maemo Feb 15 14:42:10 so don't expect miracles in a new council w/ more corporate backers Feb 15 14:42:41 I'm not terribly familiar with moblin...what is its package management format? rpm? Feb 15 14:42:45 timeless_mbp: take a look at Fedora... our Governance model is pretty great... although the board is half community and half red hat, the community is still making the decisions pretty much anywhere ;) Feb 15 14:42:45 What are the non-technical reasons for pushing rpm btw? Feb 15 14:42:46 timeless_mbp: yeah.. "community" .. hey we just joined you with this other "community" .. happy holidays Feb 15 14:42:46 JMcA: yes Feb 15 14:43:06 didn't someone say that debian packaging was "harder" in here? I just made my first deb and I didn't see any problem whatsoever >.> Feb 15 14:43:14 th0br0: red hat is different Feb 15 14:43:20 true Feb 15 14:43:23 it's run by a group that understands OSS Feb 15 14:43:24 VRe++ Feb 15 14:43:26 szbalint: the general argument is that rpm is simpler, and therefore easier for developers to work with...I'm not sure how true that is, but that's the general wisdom over the years Feb 15 14:43:28 Shapeshifter: don't troll Feb 15 14:43:30 :) Feb 15 14:43:46 crashanddie: excuse me? Feb 15 14:43:49 JMcA: It's certainly my experience Feb 15 14:44:03 szbalint: as we already said, dpkg and rpm have exactly the same zero understanding of dependency management Feb 15 14:44:18 szbalint: apt and on rpm, yum and zypper bring dependency mgmt Feb 15 14:44:23 leinir: quite possible...my caveats are there only because I haven't done much packaging work, so can't speak to it firsthand Feb 15 14:44:26 Shapeshifter: .deb spec files are ugly in comparison to rpm spec files Feb 15 14:44:29 and zypper is world class Feb 15 14:44:30 JMcA: but what we're talking about here are consumer systems, have you ever had rpm go fubar? have any idea how hard it is to get on track again? Feb 15 14:44:38 th0br0: I see. Feb 15 14:44:50 Synthaxx: rpm --rebuild-db? Yeah, super-hard there ;) Feb 15 14:44:52 do you see johnny sixpack trying to hand resolve dependancy hell? Feb 15 14:45:02 Can we not let this go into a flamewar about RPM vs deb? Feb 15 14:45:07 leinir: just don't do rm -rf /var/lib/rpm ;) Feb 15 14:45:12 * sktc wonders what this retaded move to use Qt is all about Feb 15 14:45:16 crashanddie: yup. Feb 15 14:45:20 clutter works, looks pretty, and is there now, Feb 15 14:45:20 wstephenson: yeah, I guess what people mean is that they want dpkg and everything on top, not the broken yum/yast kind of stuff... Feb 15 14:45:20 ah there's a better flamewar Feb 15 14:45:21 nor about gtk vs qt plx Feb 15 14:45:23 crashanddie: its been one for several hours. very boring already. Feb 15 14:45:25 th0br0: much like how you shouldn't do rm -rf / right? ;) Feb 15 14:45:29 Qt always looked like arse ! Feb 15 14:45:30 ;) leinir Feb 15 14:45:30 retarded move to use Qt, retarded move to use RPM Feb 15 14:45:32 leinir: that doesn't work. Feb 15 14:45:32 how funny! Feb 15 14:45:39 Synthaxx: I've seen it happen on both types of systems...I've generally had better luck getting deb-based systems back healthy than rpm-based systems, but again, that's merely anecdotal Feb 15 14:45:46 and ARM sucks too ... Feb 15 14:45:47 sktc: who cares, if gtk and qt work side by side.. but deb and rpm on same system.. Feb 15 14:45:53 leinir: you'll need --no-preserve-root for that to work. Feb 15 14:46:11 just join #meego-rpm-deb and take the flaming there please Feb 15 14:46:40 JMcA: ofcouse, as have i. Thing is (again from anecdotal evidence) it seems to be better automatable (is that a word? : ) to autoresolve in debs Feb 15 14:46:42 yay Feb 15 14:46:47 th0br0: snarky Feb 15 14:47:03 this rpm vs deb discussion is silly Feb 15 14:47:05 szbalint: i guess what's happening is that the debian history and the uber-coolness everything ubuntu touches make people believe deb is far superior, without really looking at what is possible with other systems Feb 15 14:47:14 sttc: YOU sux, clutter sux, qt and arm are future ! Feb 15 14:47:32 ;) crashanddie Feb 15 14:47:32 There's kinda more important stuff to discuss to be honest... Like what the hell is going to happen to the respective communities? Feb 15 14:47:38 <|R> samsung should drop bada and go the Meego route Feb 15 14:47:39 they die. Feb 15 14:47:45 silently. Feb 15 14:47:46 |R: i agree Feb 15 14:47:53 javispedro: that's one option, but I'd rather not let it come to that Feb 15 14:47:57 |R: people say the same about Nokia dropping everything and going Android Feb 15 14:48:01 it's just not going to happen Feb 15 14:48:05 <|R> hehe Feb 15 14:48:06 crashanddie: they all get lined up, given rpm and deb handbooks, and left to batter each other to the death. Feb 15 14:48:11 <|R> fuck Android Feb 15 14:48:33 Android's not bad. Feb 15 14:48:33 crashanddie: is there really any community, real one, for moblin? Feb 15 14:48:35 Java is great. Feb 15 14:48:37 wstephenson: not really. I use Novell/Redhat systems at $dayjob, we've finally got so pissed off with that crap that we're migrating to debian, but it takes time and the pain lingers. People should steal the best features from systems and Debian's best feature is package management... Feb 15 14:48:40 samsung has very little to lose with Bada Feb 15 14:48:40 But ... it's not really Linux. Feb 15 14:48:41 thiago: +1000 nokia can't go android Feb 15 14:48:49 VRe: I don't know, look at my hostname, I'm a maemo guy Feb 15 14:48:51 |R: i'd love to, but the japanese just aren't that advanced in robotics yet ;0) Feb 15 14:48:59 VRe: I hadn't heard of Moblin in years Feb 15 14:49:01 <|R> Synthaxx: damn :o) Feb 15 14:49:39 crashanddie: Atleast I haven't read on any site that there would be any devices out using moblin.. so if no devices, there is no community - only paid slaves Feb 15 14:49:39 szbalint: Yes, and I expect us to get MeeGo on Debian, just like we have Moblin on Debian. Feb 15 14:49:51 true Feb 15 14:49:55 Anyway, I'm out for the next couple of hourse, gotta get some work done. TTYL everyone. Feb 15 14:49:57 <|R> but why did they switch to RPM?! Feb 15 14:50:01 <|R> that's plain stupid Feb 15 14:50:04 |R: they didn't Feb 15 14:50:07 Moblin was always RPM-based Feb 15 14:50:08 because they're switching to FEDORA. Feb 15 14:50:12 "switch"? moblin's always been rpm Feb 15 14:50:16 <|R> Q Will MeeGo use .rpm or .deb as its packaging system? Feb 15 14:50:16 <|R> MeeGo will use the .rpm format Feb 15 14:50:24 nid0: they switched from ubuntu to fedora in late 2008 Feb 15 14:50:35 although they forked from fedora back then and now you can't really compare them anymore Feb 15 14:50:39 |R: didn't you get the memo? Maemo's base platform is being scraped in favor of Moblin's. Feb 15 14:50:49 Maybe they got scared of ubuntus growing grasp? Feb 15 14:51:03 VRe: there are a number of netbooks running moblin on the market Feb 15 14:51:14 <|R> urhm? ;) Feb 15 14:51:15 or maybe they realised there was Ubuntu mobile, and thought there was no point in having yet another clone? Feb 15 14:51:18 growing grasp? couldn't we at least agree that ubuntu's success means they're doing something right? Feb 15 14:51:24 thiago: excuse me but i remember that moblin was based on debian in 1.0, and for 2.0 they switched to fedora ... Feb 15 14:51:46 Synthaxx: yap, but from intel side it might look different Feb 15 14:52:23 I can't help but type "meebo" instead of meego. Feb 15 14:52:39 javispedro: :D Feb 15 14:52:46 me-ego seems about right :D Feb 15 14:53:00 meebo is better, unfortunately leego is bit close to some other trademark :) Feb 15 14:53:09 VRe: moblin runs on netbooks Feb 15 14:53:13 also, while we're at it. Feb 15 14:53:19 meego was registered in 1999 it seems.. Feb 15 14:53:28 MeGo-Awayt Feb 15 14:53:34 either someone knew this back then or we're reusing some intel's product name Feb 15 14:53:40 <|R> RPM - Feb 15 14:53:43 <|R> Fail Feb 15 14:53:47 fail! Feb 15 14:53:50 fail Feb 15 14:53:51 or they bought the domain from whoever previously owned it for whatever reason Feb 15 14:53:52 FAIL Feb 15 14:53:52 fail! Feb 15 14:53:58 or a multitude of other possibilities Feb 15 14:54:06 javispedro: there's no way "meego" comes from moblin and maemo. It's just a coincidence... They looked in the trademark drawer and saw it lying around Feb 15 14:54:16 javispedro: weeboo :) Feb 15 14:54:18 guys, stop the RPM vs DEB discussion. First of all, it's not up for discussion. Second, technical issues can be solved by technical solutions. Feb 15 14:54:23 crashanddie: in the intel trademark drawer, yes. :) Feb 15 14:54:25 weaboo sounds about right Feb 15 14:54:39 javispedro: does it make a difference? Feb 15 14:54:43 Maeblo Feb 15 14:55:01 Meeblow Feb 15 14:55:03 MaeGo Feb 15 14:55:20 I'll repeat it again: "meego" sounds the same in french as "megot", which means cigarette butt Feb 15 14:55:24 crashanddie: yes, if you find it ugly :) Feb 15 14:55:32 yes Feb 15 14:55:49 mister magoo Feb 15 14:55:51 so in french i say "migo" Feb 15 14:56:00 thiago: communities have a social component as well, and the Maemo community was at least partly based around .deb Feb 15 14:56:02 slashdot: Meego? The mobile OS from Yuggoth. Feb 15 14:56:08 thiago: I don't there is anything technical there, it's all fuzzy high management politics Feb 15 14:56:22 thiago: What do you mean it's not up for discussion? This isn't a corporate hierarchy where you can enforce directions, it's a community/user discussion... Feb 15 14:56:29 szbalint: eh? Feb 15 14:56:30 thiago: except that i've bought into the maemo platform with a lot of my hard earned money, which kind of gives me a right to have an opinion about it Feb 15 14:56:30 <|R> every big socialy built linux distro are .deb almost... Feb 15 14:56:34 anyway. I'm signing off. I think I might just quit the whole 9 yards on this one Feb 15 14:56:35 szbalint: if you want to fork MeeGo, go right ahead. Feb 15 14:56:37 <|R> RPM is a big big no no Feb 15 14:56:40 szbalint: that is open source. Feb 15 14:56:44 in portuguese, "meego" sounds like an emo version of "amigo" :P Feb 15 14:56:56 but you can't use the trademark nor claim compatibility Feb 15 14:57:02 Synthaxx: if i bought a baseball Feb 15 14:57:09 javispedro: speaking of meebo, I thought of this comic the instance you said it; http://pbfcomics.com/archive_b/PBF071-Weeaboo.gif Feb 15 14:57:11 when .rpm package start coming off AppUp and Ovi Store, how are you going to install them? Feb 15 14:57:13 would that give me the right to have an opinion about how the next baseball was made? Feb 15 14:57:23 * timeless_mbp wonders if Synthaxx knows what a baseball is Feb 15 14:57:40 <|R> me-go... me-hungry... :P Feb 15 14:57:45 meeeeee Feb 15 14:57:46 indeed. Or most likely what will happen is that a number of developers/users will just spend their time doing something else. Getting a fork up and running is not easy. Feb 15 14:57:57 anyone speak chinese here? Feb 15 14:58:09 i know 'mee' is a kind of noodle. what does 'go' mean? Feb 15 14:58:13 if you spent your own free time educating people on the use of the baseball, and it was an open creation process, then yes Feb 15 14:58:16 |R: :D Feb 15 14:58:27 wstephenson: "go" as in FOAD ;-) Feb 15 14:58:41 so where do we go to complain about the DEB to RPM switch ? Feb 15 14:58:52 you write to your nearest representative. Feb 15 14:58:54 governance page is a good start Feb 15 14:59:32 and when you propose to switch to DEB, think of the people who want to use RPM. Feb 15 14:59:37 think of how you're going to make them happy too. Feb 15 14:59:40 Dr_Cain: just to be curious... but why do you really care ? Feb 15 14:59:43 Dr_Cain: ##meego-rpm-deb Feb 15 15:00:01 arjan_: I like .deb Feb 15 15:00:09 <|R> apt-get ftw Feb 15 15:00:13 Dr_Cain: don't worry, people are complaining about deb => rpm switch Feb 15 15:00:15 and I think it handles dependencies so much better Feb 15 15:00:21 than the slower than hell yum etc Feb 15 15:00:22 thiago: and this is one of the worst parts about merging clubs/communities/houses. now let's what good we can get out of it. Feb 15 15:00:26 * arjan_ has used both formats and.. well, they're pretty much equivalent Feb 15 15:00:28 there is a prize campaign that everyone who does *not* complain will get a free N900 Feb 15 15:00:36 nice move. Feb 15 15:00:43 <|R> I'll complain even more then haha ;) Feb 15 15:00:44 cheap move too Feb 15 15:00:45 allready have one, no deal Feb 15 15:00:48 dpkg, rpm... Who cares.. What wrapper fits around it? Apt? Yum? Or something new? Feb 15 15:00:51 this is where the future is made, then? :) Feb 15 15:00:52 villemv: sign me up ;) Feb 15 15:00:53 thiago, I don't see anyone here praising RPM Feb 15 15:00:54 arjan_: no they're not.. the packages might be, but the handling and solving of dependencies is much better in apt imho Feb 15 15:00:55 At least the great thing about the MeeGo name is that I was brilliantly prescient with http://www.mwkn.net/ ;-) Feb 15 15:01:02 the_lord: because RPM is the choice. Feb 15 15:01:05 <|R> anyone ported alien yet? (deb<->rpm) Feb 15 15:01:09 ...compared with all these new blogs with "maemo" in the URLs Feb 15 15:01:09 ElPollo: developers do Feb 15 15:01:10 Dr_Cain: ah so your complaint isn't rpm/deb but apt/yum/zypper Feb 15 15:01:11 the_lord: how many people complain that their choice was the selected one? Feb 15 15:01:11 villemv: besides, the winner will start a new flame about whether or not meego will work on his new device. Feb 15 15:01:12 Jaffa: you bastard Feb 15 15:01:13 anyway, I like RPM Feb 15 15:01:17 Jaffa: so you're the author of MOBLIN weekly news! Feb 15 15:01:19 iirc, apt can handle both rpm and deb Feb 15 15:01:20 I find the syntax of the command-line tool more powerful Feb 15 15:01:25 http://lwn.net/Articles/370157/ <- so I guess we're at point 4 now :| Feb 15 15:01:28 t_s_o: not really Feb 15 15:01:32 thiago, I did not say complaining Feb 15 15:01:33 Jaffa: :D Feb 15 15:01:46 I especially like the .src.rpm Feb 15 15:01:47 i had no feelings about it, until i had to use rpm, since then i hate it with every fiber of my being Feb 15 15:01:53 t_s_o: I looked at the apt-rpm code some time ago. barf bag quality... just don't go there Feb 15 15:02:02 azeem: why? Packaging rpms is not that much harder than debs if you use the right scripts. Feb 15 15:02:02 Synthaxx: zypper is a lot better, FWIW. Feb 15 15:02:05 I am probably late, but is there somebody in chat room who knows the answer to question: RPM or DB? Feb 15 15:02:06 I also recall that rpm was easier to package than deb, at least back in 2000 when I tried it Feb 15 15:02:15 MGUPTAF = MeeGo Unified Package Tar Archive Format Feb 15 15:02:15 Synthaxx: but Qt is easily lotheable with every fibre of your beeing instead. Feb 15 15:02:17 I was surprised how hard deb packaging is actually Feb 15 15:02:18 arjan_: i am no programmer, så all code is assembly to me ;) Feb 15 15:02:20 apt-rpm != apt-get with RPM support Feb 15 15:02:24 so much easier to backport stuff in apt too Feb 15 15:02:26 there were two different projects Feb 15 15:02:29 fin: topic Feb 15 15:02:32 and both got replaced by smart in the end Feb 15 15:02:41 villemv, yes, because rpm is practically a zip file Feb 15 15:02:42 * om26er thinks dpkg is much faster Feb 15 15:02:43 just apt-get source and then dpkg-buildpackage Feb 15 15:02:52 Hi Jaffa ! I like Catorise on my N900 ! Tx for this great app !!! Feb 15 15:03:07 Ok, thanks, my vote would be DEB, but what can you do about it......... Feb 15 15:03:07 is there apt-get source for rpm? Feb 15 15:03:08 Does anyone some other nice debian/gtk based phone? Feb 15 15:03:09 I love the lame-ass governance: http://meego.com/about/governance Feb 15 15:03:09 now my brainstorm solution "switch to ipkg" makes more sense. Feb 15 15:03:17 javispedro: haha Feb 15 15:03:26 ipkg is fine, but not very powerful := Feb 15 15:03:28 :) Feb 15 15:03:38 we have (apparently) benevolent dictators, that no-one has ever heard of and who have contributed what code ? Feb 15 15:03:41 let's just do .app bundles Feb 15 15:03:44 thebootroo: Glad to be of service :-) Feb 15 15:03:59 Dr_Cain: ipkg is dead for a long time now. opkg is the successor Feb 15 15:04:09 what was wrong with it being debian based, moblin is the only one I know embedded wise that is rpm based Feb 15 15:04:10 florian: yeah I know.. I use it for openwrt Feb 15 15:04:12 these benevolent dictators are probably ones sitting on actual money, which does matter Feb 15 15:04:23 sktc: ValterSouso the triumvirate Feb 15 15:04:24 meego sounds like moblin with bits stolen from maemo Feb 15 15:04:28 when maemo is the more popular Feb 15 15:04:39 it's bullshit Feb 15 15:04:41 and whats your point? Feb 15 15:04:44 villemv: money can buy you some really lame technology Feb 15 15:04:48 maemo and moblin were mostly the same thing at base level Feb 15 15:04:53 http://lwn.net/Articles/370157/ <- "LCA: How to destroy your community" Feb 15 15:04:55 Lantizia: Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated! Feb 15 15:05:00 not so benevolent Feb 15 15:05:07 villemv: right - Maemo 5 and Moblin rocked. Feb 15 15:05:12 maemo and moblin already share like 90% even before Feb 15 15:05:21 villemv: we have "zypper source-install " Feb 15 15:05:22 I recall you that Moblin used to be debian based too ! Feb 15 15:05:26 are there even products out with moblin? Feb 15 15:05:36 villemv: shame about Maemo 6 which took completely the wrong direction, with Qt. Feb 15 15:05:38 so moblin is using zypper on top of rpm? Feb 15 15:05:50 Synthaxx: Atom netbooks, I believe. Or did you mean factory packaged? Feb 15 15:05:50 Qt is bull... RPM is bull... Feb 15 15:05:53 Does anyone some other nice debian/gtk based phone? Feb 15 15:05:59 Qt is not bull Feb 15 15:06:03 hm.. is there something wrong about yum or yum vs zyppper is yet another holy war? Feb 15 15:06:03 I'm gonna sell the N900 and get that instead Feb 15 15:06:05 OpenMoko? *Laughs* Feb 15 15:06:07 Qt is the future of UI Feb 15 15:06:08 I'll go on the record as a huge Qt fan (and gobject-allergic) Feb 15 15:06:08 thebootroo, and you can download it from here but its old http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/releases/8.04.1/ Feb 15 15:06:08 Lantizia: the old Maemo 5 is out there: Debian & gtk+ Feb 15 15:06:10 vmlemon_: thats Qt Feb 15 15:06:11 villemv: "zypper si -d" is the short form to just pull a package's build deps, nice when you are hacking something from sources Feb 15 15:06:14 Hukka: Factory packaged Feb 15 15:06:23 sktc: already got it - uncertain future now isn't it!? Feb 15 15:06:27 Synthaxx: Don't think so. Feb 15 15:06:28 "look my phone has 3d games..... but my phone has gtk..." Feb 15 15:06:32 villemv: my 'we' was the 'we at opensuse' Feb 15 15:06:35 But I haven't followed closely Feb 15 15:06:36 Lantizia: well - it actually works; Feb 15 15:06:38 Synthaxx: you mean like dell, samsung and msi ? Feb 15 15:06:47 I love how sktc can say "the old maemo 5" -- it's TWO MONTHS OLD Feb 15 15:06:49 FFS Feb 15 15:06:49 i don't know, that's why i asked Feb 15 15:06:50 wstephenson: ok, for a sec I thought you were talking about moblin Feb 15 15:07:07 villemv: well i could be for the novell edition of moblin ;) Feb 15 15:07:10 Lantizia: it is not me that launches the produkt and says it is dead before launch, Feb 15 15:07:16 oh I know :) Feb 15 15:07:24 ah! now I recall Novell dedicated some chaps to work on moblin Feb 15 15:07:25 your phrasing is correct too Feb 15 15:07:30 I'm just pointing out the irony Feb 15 15:07:32 see, the thing i have is that i'm kind of beta testing an OS (Maemo 5) which will be largely trashed within half a year anyways... Feb 15 15:07:35 still no Mono in sight thought ;-) Feb 15 15:07:38 not that i don't love my n900 Feb 15 15:07:45 wstephenson: what does Novell think about MeeGo ? Feb 15 15:07:56 ubuntu lucid wont ship with a moblin remix they deffered it Feb 15 15:08:00 sktc: i'm not a spokesperson Feb 15 15:08:02 villemv: +1000 Feb 15 15:08:15 wstephenson: so - how about you then ? Feb 15 15:08:24 sktc: /whois me and guess ;) Feb 15 15:08:28 om26er: they mainly did not have vendor requests. the karmic moblin remix was made as a proof-of-concept. Feb 15 15:08:28 Synthaxx: oh, they trashed the previous OS before M5, and the previous, and the previous one, and... Feb 15 15:08:36 I can't beleive I thought I'd finally found where to plant routes and get back on the PDA/Phone arena Feb 15 15:08:41 and it's been shat on again Feb 15 15:08:48 *roots even Feb 15 15:08:50 Synthaxx: as a 770, n810 and n900 owner, this is exactly what I've been waiting for, and I'm happily surprised that it's mobiln and maemo Feb 15 15:08:54 Lantizia: the "route" is clear. Use Qt. The rest is in a bit of flux Feb 15 15:09:04 javispedro: i know, should've looked into that before i fell in love with it because of it's debian base Feb 15 15:09:05 Lantizia: Well - to be fair - it's been said that QT is coming for a while now. Feb 15 15:09:09 wstephenson: pokd the whois - whatsup ? Feb 15 15:09:09 villemv: I don't have that much issue with Qt... well any more Feb 15 15:09:13 now it's LGDL Feb 15 15:09:15 *LGPL Feb 15 15:09:38 both gtk/clutter and qt are supported in meego. vendors can concentrate on any UI kit they want. Feb 15 15:09:41 Mirv, they might look into meego when the time comes Feb 15 15:09:55 is gtk going to be officially supported? Feb 15 15:10:00 sktc: well as a KDE guy i think anything that puts Qt on more devices is cool. and i don't have any worries about rpm because i know that zypper fixes the dependency hell reputation rpm has. Feb 15 15:10:01 mirv, a metropolis :) Feb 15 15:10:03 om26er: they are quite customer-driven, but most certainly hw vendors might be interested in meego Feb 15 15:10:04 that's better than you got with harmattan if this is the case Feb 15 15:10:04 Mirv: sure - as long as they want to write with a 'legacy' toolkit (that is pretty, quick, and clean) like clutter/gtk Feb 15 15:10:05 villemv: yes, see it's in the arch diagram Feb 15 15:10:08 What does 'supported' mean though. Feb 15 15:10:21 i prefer seeing Maemo and Moblin, even if i have to loose deb for rpm, instead of seeing nokia switching to android Feb 15 15:10:25 no Feb 15 15:10:28 supported = Nokia, Intel paying guys to fix bugs on it Feb 15 15:10:29 Qt is the only official supported one Feb 15 15:10:30 I mean - is it likely that if I have a random mobile with Qt interface - can I run GTK stuff on it Feb 15 15:10:36 I thought as much thebootroo Feb 15 15:10:41 thiago I meant Feb 15 15:10:42 you can run GTK apps, of course. It's X11. Feb 15 15:10:42 villemv: but... to be fair, QT has a lot more tools around it and is quicker to create apps for Feb 15 15:10:53 SpeedEvil, welcome to linux Feb 15 15:10:58 as well as any other toolkit out there, like Evas Feb 15 15:11:01 plus, doesn't nokia own QT? Feb 15 15:11:03 or wxWidgets Feb 15 15:11:05 Synthaxx: yes Feb 15 15:11:07 Qt Feb 15 15:11:07 Synthaxx: yup they do Feb 15 15:11:14 Qt is a trademark of Nokia, lowercase t Feb 15 15:11:16 that would explain it nicely Feb 15 15:11:22 thiago: people are understanding quim's forum posting that both are equally supported, and the netbook UX will be the existing clutter moblin UI. Feb 15 15:11:25 the_lord: thiago: I was thinking back to the days when Qt was on framebuffer - I forgot it went x11 Feb 15 15:11:32 they'll now just need to slap Bada on it so we can have twitter app on MeeGo Feb 15 15:11:35 thiago: i'm sorry, i will check my spelling of it next time ;) Feb 15 15:11:39 wstephenson: but qt was already in Maemo and Moblin; so how does it help Qt ? Feb 15 15:11:44 SpeedEvil: Qt supported X11 first Feb 15 15:11:47 Not RPM based, please no Feb 15 15:11:49 nooooo Feb 15 15:11:56 * vmlemon_ waits for Palm to fold in parts of WebOS Feb 15 15:11:56 SpeedEvil: the framebuffer version is still there, as is DirectFB. Feb 15 15:12:07 Qt will be the official framework, Gtk+ will only be there for compatibility with old Moblin apps Feb 15 15:12:29 ah, so harmattan will be moblin compatible... Feb 15 15:12:29 sktc: until quite recently it was community only on maemo and is only in moblin for LSB compliance Feb 15 15:12:34 ? Feb 15 15:12:41 I don't think MeeGo will be as friendly... no terminal out of box at any rate Feb 15 15:12:44 thiago: I meant - you can't 'meaningfully' - run gtk apps - unless you can share an X display. Feb 15 15:12:46 There ARE Moblin apps? Feb 15 15:12:50 Lantizia: uh??? Feb 15 15:12:55 Lantizia: having or not having terminal app is unrelated Feb 15 15:12:56 in the world of random choices, why not Java ? that actually has some uptake; Qt ? what is that stuff ... Feb 15 15:12:59 Lantizia: if you make stuff up, please make up interesting stuff ') Feb 15 15:12:59 particularly on mobiles, Feb 15 15:12:59 RST38h: apperantly Feb 15 15:13:03 arjan_: I just think MeeGo will try to be another Android Feb 15 15:13:13 i.e. simple simple - want extra? unlock Feb 15 15:13:18 Lantizia: and... what exactly makes you think that? Feb 15 15:13:24 Lantizia: how does "the best of both moblin and maemo" equal android ? Feb 15 15:13:30 SpeedEvil: not following. Feb 15 15:13:31 Lantizia: a throw-over-the-wall corporate cock-up ? Feb 15 15:13:34 because Intel is involved Feb 15 15:13:44 SpeedEvil: the X11 protocol is open. Anyone can connect to the server and start talking via it. Feb 15 15:13:47 Lantizia: with the decisions taken by two un-accountable, total-unknown management weenies ? Feb 15 15:13:50 Lantizia, I think you are talking s**t Feb 15 15:13:55 SpeedEvil: as for UI style and other things, they'll probably be Qt plugins. Feb 15 15:13:56 this reminds me a bit of that "I went from novell to NT"-pic, whith a dude shoving his head up his arse :P Feb 15 15:13:59 Lantizia, have you seen moblin? Feb 15 15:14:06 SpeedEvil: same thing for home screen apps Feb 15 15:14:11 jku_: yeah Feb 15 15:14:11 thiago: only if there is an X server up and running. Feb 15 15:14:22 Lantizia: everything intel touches works out well. Feb 15 15:14:27 SpeedEvil: there is. Feb 15 15:14:31 Shapeshifter: i432 Feb 15 15:14:36 intel also paid for Clutter, methinks? Feb 15 15:14:36 SpeedEvil: :P Feb 15 15:14:37 SpeedEvil: MeeGo is still a standard X11-based Linux system. Feb 15 15:14:40 villemv: yes Feb 15 15:14:46 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_iAPX_432 Feb 15 15:15:08 thiago: thanks Feb 15 15:15:29 ^Complete processor fail. Of a quite nice in principle processor. Feb 15 15:15:37 for me Gtk+/Clutter is like crap, i prefer so far Qt/GraphicsView Feb 15 15:15:47 so, no, MeeGo is not using the Qt for Embedded Linux port. It's X11. Feb 15 15:16:02 at least, until someone managed to get something better than X11. Feb 15 15:16:07 yeah Feb 15 15:16:09 wayland! Feb 15 15:16:22 with the wayland and X guys working for Intel.. that'll just be a matter of time Feb 15 15:16:29 ==== X bashing START ==== Feb 15 15:16:39 x11 sucks Feb 15 15:16:42 ==> [] Feb 15 15:16:43 X is SLOW! Feb 15 15:16:43 (and wayland seems to be actually some cool tech) Feb 15 15:16:50 SpeedEvil: hahahaha good joke. Feb 15 15:16:50 (fast enough on my 486/25 tho) Feb 15 15:16:50 I guess I'm just worried about losing control of my mobile device. I don't want a silly store, I want a repository. I don't want lockdown heaven Apple style... Feb 15 15:16:56 of course, the switch from X11 means BC break everywhere Feb 15 15:16:57 x is holding linux back Feb 15 15:16:59 in my dreams, there's a world where X11 has been replaced Feb 15 15:17:05 szbalint: you have a silly store now xD Feb 15 15:17:07 Bah, as a Symbian community member, I'm offering AVKON as the solution to everyone's graphical woes Feb 15 15:17:08 it's a link to a web site. Feb 15 15:17:11 * vmlemon_ hides Feb 15 15:17:11 szbalint: lockdown of a device is an operator thing, not an OS or device vendor tihng Feb 15 15:17:21 szbalint: the way that the Ovi Store works now with the N900 is that it downloads .deb files from the server. Then everything is controlled by the repo. Feb 15 15:17:30 arjan_: so apple doesn't lockdown the iphone? Feb 15 15:17:31 I once woke up at my keyboard, dreaming that I was running w/o X. then, I saw the screen and X WAS THERE Feb 15 15:17:32 szbalint: the Extras repo is pre-configured but disabled. Enable if you want. Feb 15 15:17:35 yeah, I know, _currently_. Feb 15 15:17:38 Shapeshifter: apple is sort of special ;-) Feb 15 15:17:43 besides, full SDK. Build your apps if you want to. Feb 15 15:17:58 but of the two maemo/moblin, the n900 is the most locked down one Feb 15 15:18:05 build your image if you want too, though you may be locked out of some proprietary hardware. Feb 15 15:18:27 so if you're fine with the n900 I'd not lie awake on that Feb 15 15:18:29 I don't want that to change, I'm happy with my n900. I just want it to become better instead of worse Feb 15 15:18:31 meh. Apart from RPM being a tad annoying, I don't see anything bad with this merge. Everything's going to be awesome. Feb 15 15:18:41 you can't lock down n900 as it doesn't have fritz chip to lock down the hardware Feb 15 15:18:55 villemv: heh, it does. Feb 15 15:19:16 * villemv agrees with Shapesifter. Even RPM could be fun Feb 15 15:19:24 * Lantizia packs up his N900 Feb 15 15:19:26 X-Fade: it does? Feb 15 15:19:30 anyone want one? Feb 15 15:19:40 villemv: Every omap seems to have it. Feb 15 15:19:45 Lantizia: sure - if it's cheap. Feb 15 15:19:46 villemv: Yes, it's built into omap3 at least. Feb 15 15:19:52 Lantizia: I will swap you a bananna. Feb 15 15:19:55 what's a fritz chip? Feb 15 15:19:57 N900 is an OMAP3430 Feb 15 15:19:57 do you have to pay for special license to use it, like with Jazelle? Feb 15 15:19:57 villemv: You just need to enable it. Feb 15 15:20:02 SpeedEvil: not quite what I was thinking Feb 15 15:20:14 are there docs on how to enable it? Feb 15 15:20:14 Lantizia: a coconut? Feb 15 15:20:22 £400 Feb 15 15:20:36 i think he meant load it into a cannon and shoot it into the sun ;) Feb 15 15:20:54 * SpeedEvil tries to work out what he'll pay eventually for his. Feb 15 15:21:09 460 euros Feb 15 15:21:11 not bad Feb 15 15:21:23 villemv: http://www.arm.com/products/processors/technologies/trustzone.php Feb 15 15:21:35 so, is there any info if MeGoo will be truly open source, or will Nokia add proprietary parts (e.g. devices state management) when creating a release for a device? Feb 15 15:21:47 meego is open source Feb 15 15:21:54 but people making it into a product can add binary stuff Feb 15 15:21:55 pinsh: let's see if we can affect the issues early on Feb 15 15:21:59 (like with any distro) Feb 15 15:22:07 pinsh: there are always going to be closed source parts, like drivers Feb 15 15:22:15 wrt omap3: u cant enable it, it is either HS or GP, but it cannot switch Feb 15 15:22:22 does the QtCreator package on meego.com come with cross-compilers? Feb 15 15:22:28 Synthaxx: the good news is that the nr of binary drivers is near zero nowadays Feb 15 15:22:39 "First, they came for Gtk and we didn't speak up / Then they came for .deb and we didn't speak up..." ;-) Feb 15 15:22:51 cell modem will be closed for the foreseeable future. Feb 15 15:22:57 they they came for ARM and we were already dead Feb 15 15:22:58 poulsbo! :) Feb 15 15:23:13 and intel imo has a good record of providing open source drivers. I like my iwl, I like my gma945 drivers. And they made KMS. Feb 15 15:23:14 arjan_: cell modem, wifi chipset, graphics driver (not sure?) Feb 15 15:23:15 Mirv: that's a case of no drivers.. ;-) Feb 15 15:23:16 and DRI2 Feb 15 15:23:17 * Mirv hides Feb 15 15:23:18 szbalint: OpenMoko started the switch from GTK to Qt, btw :-P Feb 15 15:23:21 I like intel. Feb 15 15:23:28 Synthaxx: well, my x86 laptop runs without any closed source drivers or any other closed source code.. so no, there don't have to be proprietary parts Feb 15 15:23:29 yeah, it was a joke :) Feb 15 15:23:32 (http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2008/05/openmoko-linux-mobile-phone-ditches-gtk-gets-qt-and-e17.ars) Feb 15 15:23:42 pinsh: talking about the n900 ;) Feb 15 15:23:54 pinsh: your BIOS is open source? Feb 15 15:24:01 coreboot, or? Feb 15 15:24:14 pinsh: and no firmware for your wireless card? :-) Feb 15 15:24:14 sandsmark: but already moved over to Enlightenment before the Om Inc stopped working and community got to do something working :) Feb 15 15:24:26 sandsmark, you're at least two toolkits late Feb 15 15:24:28 Shapeshifter: how many mobile devices have Intel made? Feb 15 15:24:31 206.25 I think - pounds - assuming I can resell the voucher for john lewis. Feb 15 15:24:34 Oh, don't forget CPU microcode, or disk drive firmware, for the sake of being pedantic Feb 15 15:24:36 Mirv: no, it used the Enlightenment window manager only, iirc Feb 15 15:24:57 sandsmark: also the phone UI in Om2009, Om2008 was about E17 windo w manger + qtopia Feb 15 15:25:15 alterego: none? Feb 15 15:25:19 yeah... I know the BIOS is not open source.. but I consider firmware to be OK if closed source (as long as the code runs on the device, not host CPU) Feb 15 15:25:32 sandsmark: cross-compile from x86 to x86? :-) Feb 15 15:25:42 thiago: oh, yes Feb 15 15:25:46 thiago: :D Feb 15 15:25:48 Shapeshifter: exactly, so what makes you thbink it matters whether intel release drivers for chipsets which probably wont be in any of the devices? :P Feb 15 15:25:52 luckily the community is now making better progress on the software that Om Inc is not making semi-decisions Feb 15 15:26:14 Mirv: yeah, there's even a semi-working port of Arch Linux by now :-) Feb 15 15:26:21 finally a proper package manager :-P Feb 15 15:26:22 alterego: it's the same company? possibly even some of the same people? Feb 15 15:26:43 sandsmark: hehe. I'm satisfied with my Debian on it. Feb 15 15:26:43 Shapeshifter: again .. how many devices have Intel ever released? Feb 15 15:26:50 * thiago wonders how different that download is different from the qt-sdk-*-2010.02 packages released today Feb 15 15:27:08 alterego: again .. none? Feb 15 15:27:42 well, do you count development kits? Feb 15 15:27:58 omg rpm! Feb 15 15:28:18 omg marmite! Feb 15 15:28:41 omg! Feb 15 15:30:05 Yeah, rpm. Did anybody already mention how much better debian based distro's are? Feb 15 15:30:08 * AVee duck's Feb 15 15:30:13 hehe Feb 15 15:30:13 :D Feb 15 15:30:20 not really, go on :P Feb 15 15:30:32 AVee: no, HOW MUCH better is it? :D Feb 15 15:30:34 rpm? Feb 15 15:30:43 AVee: everyone who says that, and then thinks about it, ends up realizing it's about packaging policies not the file format Feb 15 15:30:46 AVee: rpm = packaging format, debian = distro ;) Feb 15 15:30:48 arachnist: rounds per minutes Feb 15 15:30:52 |<------this much--------->| (not to scale) Feb 15 15:30:55 minute, even Feb 15 15:30:57 ebuild ftw Feb 15 15:31:02 tar ftw Feb 15 15:31:03 why, oh why does this have to go into the rpm hell? Feb 15 15:31:06 arjan_: are you saying meego will have awesome packaging policies Feb 15 15:31:06 yes, tar. Feb 15 15:31:11 arachnist: it doesn't. Feb 15 15:31:13 I really want RPMs, in my car... Feb 15 15:31:23 it's not that users are ever going to notice the package format.. Feb 15 15:31:29 thiago: i have nightmares about rpm, no joke. Feb 15 15:31:33 Debian's greatness IMHO is not in the packaging format Feb 15 15:31:34 azeem: I'm saying that good packaging policies make or break this, not the format, and yes there are actually tools to enforce that Feb 15 15:31:43 the only difference between RPMs and Debs in my book is that Debs take slightly longer to package properly :-P Feb 15 15:31:49 Mirv: debians greatness is that it's outdated. Feb 15 15:31:52 (and I spent a summer making debs for internal usage) Feb 15 15:31:54 But indeed, it's more about policy then about the tools. Even more reason to be debian based imho Feb 15 15:32:00 sandsmark: Not since last year. Feb 15 15:32:12 AVee: it's not Debian-based anyway. Feb 15 15:32:13 <3 <3 debian <3 <3 Feb 15 15:32:15 well, this was in june/july 2008 Feb 15 15:32:23 AVee: Maemo used .deb, but didn't base on Debian. Feb 15 15:32:26 AVee: in how much is maemo still debian basd? Feb 15 15:32:26 Shapeshifter: it's universal and it has good policies Feb 15 15:32:37 it started as such, but then along the way it stopped using that as a base. Feb 15 15:32:43 Maemo builds all of its packages. Feb 15 15:32:43 you can say "ubuntu is debian based".. but do binary debian packages really work on ubuntu ? Feb 15 15:32:44 thiago: Maemo IS based on debian Feb 15 15:32:46 meego isn't, again imho, competitor to it Feb 15 15:32:50 thiago: the source packages? Feb 15 15:32:50 * lbt makes a note to program an 'rpm' count into infobot.... only mentioned 156 times so far today Feb 15 15:32:53 thebootroo: no, it isn't. Feb 15 15:32:54 Will Maemo 6 be DEB or RPM based Feb 15 15:32:57 Not to much indeed, i really hoped it would move more towards debian, not away from it. Feb 15 15:32:58 maemo is not quite as close to debian afaics Feb 15 15:33:00 Lantizia: undecided. Feb 15 15:33:01 Thats all I want to know at this stage Feb 15 15:33:02 arjan, I did base a lot of stuff on debian Feb 15 15:33:04 But we'll see Feb 15 15:33:04 sandsmark: It's basically putting '%:\n$@' into debian/rules and creating a control and changelog file. Feb 15 15:33:05 Mirv: sure. I like debian. but deb isn't the best format, and apt isn't the best management ;) Feb 15 15:33:07 deb only mentioned 128... rpm winds Feb 15 15:33:08 well if any of the upcoming meego based devices will ever have "just normal users" instead of hackers, they won't care _at_all_ about the packaging system being used. Feb 15 15:33:08 so it's not entirely true Feb 15 15:33:12 Will Maemo 6 be based on Silice or Urrectum? Feb 15 15:33:21 thiago: It IS : look at uname Feb 15 15:33:28 juliank: why is the changelog file still needed? Feb 15 15:33:31 Shapeshifter: ok. I don't have personal preference strictly on the packaging format. anything goes. Feb 15 15:33:36 don't people have version control these days? :-) Feb 15 15:33:36 maemo is based on debian Feb 15 15:33:40 quite explicitly Feb 15 15:33:44 Lantizia: no Feb 15 15:33:47 sandsmark: to destinguish between two uploads? Feb 15 15:33:50 Lantizia: it uses some tools from debian Feb 15 15:33:50 Lantizia: more like it's based on .deb packaging format Feb 15 15:33:55 sandsmark: To document the changes in the package, and to have bugs automatically closed. Feb 15 15:34:04 sandsmark: yes - thus based on in part... it's a lot more than just using the .deb format Feb 15 15:34:06 Mirv: the .deb packaging format doesn't imply the debian packaging toolchain. Feb 15 15:34:09 sandsmark: A proper changelog is the key to success. Feb 15 15:34:14 juliank: hehe Feb 15 15:34:17 .deb is really bad branding since people always confuse it with Debian the project/distro Feb 15 15:34:17 thebootroo: Linux Nokia-N900-42-2 2.6.29-omap1 #1 PREEMPT Wed Oct 7 16:34:25 EEST 209 armv7l unknown Feb 15 15:34:18 Well, Maemo 5 is bootstrapped with Debian Etch system (build tools etc) Feb 15 15:34:24 thebootroo: no Debian mentioned Feb 15 15:34:25 Maemo is as much basd on debian as Ubuntu is Feb 15 15:34:26 javispedro: right Feb 15 15:34:33 Mirv: it's good marketing on Debian's part, though :-) Feb 15 15:34:35 Some packages ported over Feb 15 15:34:37 Lantizia: no, not really Feb 15 15:34:41 whats the biggest touchscreen device moblin supports atm? Feb 15 15:34:47 Lantizia: with Ubuntu, you can enable Debian repositories Feb 15 15:34:52 Lantizia: you can't do that with Maemo. Feb 15 15:34:53 euh Feb 15 15:35:03 Thiago: BusyBox (Debian 3:1.10.2.legal..... Feb 15 15:35:04 thiago: again, we are talking source-level here Feb 15 15:35:06 lcuk: a 26" nettop ;) Feb 15 15:35:08 thiago: it doesn't matter - busybox alone is a copy from debian Feb 15 15:35:10 thiago, of course you can Feb 15 15:35:14 obviously maemo is binary rebuilt at least Feb 15 15:35:17 someone just built almost all of debian etch for n900 Feb 15 15:35:17 it's not built from scratch - it's build from debian sources Feb 15 15:35:23 well, > 50% anyway Feb 15 15:35:25 thus it is debian based Feb 15 15:35:25 thiago: enabling debian packages in ubuntu? suicidal! Feb 15 15:35:25 unmodified deb packages can happily come across in some situations Feb 15 15:35:26 busybox is a copy from debian? >.> Feb 15 15:35:28 but it is not debian Feb 15 15:35:31 Lantizia: No Debian<->Ubuntu is closer than Maemo<->Debian, because Ubuntu syncs regularly; while Maemo is still at bash 2. Feb 15 15:35:33 what does that mean, even Feb 15 15:35:49 juliank: what's this "bash" you're talking about? Feb 15 15:35:51 arch uses busybox. Does that mean its based on debian? I hope not >.> Feb 15 15:35:55 busybox ftw! Feb 15 15:35:59 anyway, you guys are making the point here: it's not about the packaging format, it's about the packaging policy. Feb 15 15:36:03 Shapeshifter: did it compile it from the debian source for busybox? Feb 15 15:36:10 neither Ubuntu nor Maemo recommend turning on Debian repositories. Feb 15 15:36:11 because maemo sure as hell did Feb 15 15:36:18 hmm. What I'm eagerly waiting for is the developer documentation for MeeGo. Not that interested in politics, myself. Feb 15 15:36:26 debian ftw Feb 15 15:36:31 indeed Feb 15 15:36:33 javispedro: Well, the shell in the SDK; where they are still using a version not even shipped in Debian oldstable anymore. Feb 15 15:36:33 a proper packaging policy can be implemented in RPM too. Feb 15 15:36:39 the file format has nothing to do with the policy. Feb 15 15:36:40 RPM is bull Feb 15 15:36:44 theres no reason to change Feb 15 15:36:46 thiago: why do you think Nokia or Intel would pull it off? Feb 15 15:36:50 Lantizia: ah Feb 15 15:36:51 Lantizia: Moblin is already RPM. Feb 15 15:36:57 azeem: pull what off? Feb 15 15:36:59 no reason to change :-) Feb 15 15:36:59 and rpm suck Feb 15 15:36:59 and meamo isn't Feb 15 15:37:02 damn rpm! Feb 15 15:37:04 a proper packaging policy Feb 15 15:37:05 meamo meamo! Feb 15 15:37:07 But Moblin is barely evenn known about!!! thiago Feb 15 15:37:11 * aquatix gets the popcorn Feb 15 15:37:14 Why are we matching their needs? Feb 15 15:37:14 Lantizia: so? Feb 15 15:37:18 everyone forgot about typing maemo already! maemo is dead! Feb 15 15:37:22 thiago: RPM does not even have a real changelog where you can see which package revision changed what. Feb 15 15:37:23 Maemo has the better community - the stronger support Feb 15 15:37:26 Lantizia: and no, it's not barely known. Feb 15 15:37:29 emdebian tries to have Debian busybox based (!coreutils) (crush) Feb 15 15:37:30 moblin vs maemo Feb 15 15:37:32 juliank: wrong. Feb 15 15:37:34 Deb's still use `ar` files, EOD :-P Feb 15 15:37:36 juliank: just plain wrong. Feb 15 15:37:44 sandsmark: cpio! Feb 15 15:37:48 aquatix: wow its 164/159 rpm/deb... rpm was leading by over 30 mentions not long ago Feb 15 15:37:49 azeem: because a really bad packaging policy would not be in their interest financially. Feb 15 15:37:53 $ rpm -q --changelog glibc | wc -l Feb 15 15:37:53 812 Feb 15 15:37:54 juliank: yeah if you make stuff up at least make good stuff up Feb 15 15:37:54 javispedro, does your code work on moblin currently? Feb 15 15:37:56 javispedro: more efficient than `ar`, at least Feb 15 15:38:00 lbt: link? Feb 15 15:38:07 I hope the discussion moves from packaging format to proper policy soon indeed :) Feb 15 15:38:08 omg moblin, sucks Feb 15 15:38:09 deb, deb,debdebdeb Feb 15 15:38:10 ;) Feb 15 15:38:12 deb deb deb Feb 15 15:38:16 apk! Feb 15 15:38:20 k? Feb 15 15:38:22 thiago: AFAIK, RPM is using GNU style changelogs, not per-package-revision changelogs. Feb 15 15:38:22 lbt: what is what? Feb 15 15:38:28 fsck you lot: installshield ftw Feb 15 15:38:29 lcuk: my code doesn't depend on any specific debian features :) Feb 15 15:38:34 Lantizia: grep -i rpm /everything/home/david/logs/freenode_#meego.log | wc -l ; grep -i deb /everything/home/david/logs/freenode_#meego.log | wc -l Feb 15 15:38:34 lol luck Feb 15 15:38:36 juliank: guess again Feb 15 15:38:37 lcuk: just need to port Wine Feb 15 15:38:39 to arm Feb 15 15:38:48 anyway, if you guys want to make a difference, make sure the packaging _policy_ is correct Feb 15 15:38:50 lcuk: lol Feb 15 15:38:54 the file format is the least of the problems Feb 15 15:38:55 sandsmark: lol Feb 15 15:38:56 lbt: aww I thought you found a poll Feb 15 15:38:58 I'm tired of this discussion already Feb 15 15:39:05 maemo > moblin Feb 15 15:39:09 thiago: for some value of "discussion" :-) Feb 15 15:39:10 definately Feb 15 15:39:12 maemo nationalism ftw! Feb 15 15:39:13 "/everything"? That's pretty hardcore ;) Feb 15 15:39:14 thiago: mockery is the only answer Feb 15 15:39:16 arjan_: yes Feb 15 15:39:19 Debian has a perfectly sane packaging policy already Feb 15 15:39:20 hmm Feb 15 15:39:24 Synthaxx: I haz a RAIDZ Feb 15 15:39:25 azeem: haha Feb 15 15:39:33 to me this is Nokia handing it's problems over to Intel Feb 15 15:39:33 oh, did I laugh out loud? :-) Feb 15 15:39:34 and only that Feb 15 15:39:36 /everything sounds big Feb 15 15:39:42 Lantizia: so what if it is? Feb 15 15:39:44 arachnist:4Tb ? Feb 15 15:39:47 arjan_: Changelog is per-date. I have an srpm spec open here (from openSUSE). Feb 15 15:39:50 lbt:i has too, just that it's in /raid0 Feb 15 15:39:52 Moblin + bits of Maemo = Success for Intel... not Nokia Feb 15 15:39:52 i should rename my /dataz2 to everything Feb 15 15:39:56 NAME USED AVAIL REFER MOUNTPOINT Feb 15 15:39:56 dataz2 143G 5.19T 46.1M /dataz2 Feb 15 15:39:58 Lantizia: or just about choosing the best maintained platform Feb 15 15:39:59 haven't bothered remounting ;) Feb 15 15:40:01 juliank: it's a matter of policy Feb 15 15:40:02 juliank: and as part of it, you put the version in the entry of the changelog Feb 15 15:40:05 Lantizia: why? Feb 15 15:40:06 sandsmark: Maemo is doing fine tho! Feb 15 15:40:12 juliank: yes opensuse has a slightly different format than, say, fedora does Feb 15 15:40:17 Lantizia: the apt* suite hasn't really had much work done on it the last couple of years Feb 15 15:40:18 but again, that's a matter of policy Feb 15 15:40:20 wtf is wrong with things the way they are Feb 15 15:40:21 unlike for example zypper Feb 15 15:40:23 Lantizia: "hey, we've got a lot more people working on the low-level parts now. We can focus on the UI" Feb 15 15:40:33 azeem: it is sane but depends heavily on perl, coreutils, glibc. It is hard to move Debian to non-perl version, without coreutils being base, but busybox, and maybe uclibc instead glibc Feb 15 15:40:34 sandsmark: because it's awesome the way it is Feb 15 15:40:40 Dr_Cain: but stale Feb 15 15:40:43 sandsmark: We much work on apt. Feb 15 15:40:57 used 143 gigs out of 5tb? Feb 15 15:40:58 ZYPPER? OMG Feb 15 15:40:58 lol Feb 15 15:40:58 s/We/We did/ Feb 15 15:40:59 ! Feb 15 15:41:01 I really wonder why the fscking package format is so important to you lot Feb 15 15:41:09 juliank: when do you get boolean SAT-solving for dependencies? :-P Feb 15 15:41:28 or some absurdly fast binary disk cache for dependency trees? Feb 15 15:41:29 * thiago is tired of this, really Feb 15 15:41:30 * nid0 throws a nano handbook into the packaging whines to mix things up a bit Feb 15 15:41:32 "/dev/vg0/lv0 3.6T 3.5T 32G 100% " Feb 15 15:41:33 ;) Feb 15 15:41:35 thiago: give up then Feb 15 15:41:39 find me in #qt-labs when you want to discuss something more interesting Feb 15 15:41:41 maemo > moblin Feb 15 15:41:46 range: because... IRC is a great tool for flamefests :) Feb 15 15:41:51 Lantizia: meego > maemo + moblin Feb 15 15:41:53 so the switch to RPM was purely political then? Feb 15 15:41:55 Lantizia is just being a 15 year old, bored teenager again ;) Feb 15 15:41:56 range, lots of people work hard to get packages working, its non trivial, so they are no doubt nervous, but im sure there will be a strong team of community/supported assistants on hand to guide people through any transition process Feb 15 15:41:57 range: The format is not important, the prospect of being able to run just about anything in the debian repro's is. Feb 15 15:41:59 sandsmark: SAT solver is in aptitude, AFAIK; and our disk cache is fast; it's mmap()ed. Feb 15 15:42:08 and so the only rpm supporter leaves the room Feb 15 15:42:09 and trying to throw up dust rather than having rational arguments :) Feb 15 15:42:10 I don't get the fuss about the rpm vs deb either. It's just a packaging system for goodness sake. Feb 15 15:42:11 does anyone think MeGoo will be designed with a 256MB root-fs limit in mind? Feb 15 15:42:13 * aquatix apt-get's alien Feb 15 15:42:17 AVee: indeed, that's alot of apps Feb 15 15:42:20 juliank: I mean updating the format, here aptitude still has to spend a lot of time reading and writing it in Feb 15 15:42:20 pinsh: lol Feb 15 15:42:23 Synthaxx: more or less Feb 15 15:42:29 for every operation Feb 15 15:42:33 but in this case completely irrelevant because there is nothing to discuss wrt meego there Feb 15 15:42:40 Synthaxx: and that's a zfs raidz2 Feb 15 15:42:41 pinsh: what is target footprint for meego? Feb 15 15:42:41 pinsh: we're designing for "relatively small" Feb 15 15:42:48 ext3 :/ Feb 15 15:42:55 so not 64Mb, but also not for > 1Gb Feb 15 15:43:00 it's a thecus n5200, and that's what came with it Feb 15 15:43:05 well, if it should work on N900, 256MB is the limit Feb 15 15:43:08 can't really mess with it since it's full Feb 15 15:43:19 * Dvoid is very happy with the switch to RPM , now i hope for zypper it rocks Feb 15 15:43:22 sandsmark: Parsing package files takes some time, we are not RPM where people throw binary sqlite databases into repositories. We do things in a proper, human-readable way. Then we create a local binary cache. Feb 15 15:43:22 pinsh: You could reformat the n900... Feb 15 15:43:23 but of course, the code is not there yet so people don't have anything better to discuss either :) Feb 15 15:43:26 ok I got a choice... keep saying DEB DEB DEB - or go try Fedora Feb 15 15:43:32 shall I try Fedora? :) Feb 15 15:43:42 juliank: well, that's extremely slow Feb 15 15:43:48 deb deb deb deb Feb 15 15:43:50 AVee: Nope, not really, the 256MB for rootfs is on a separate flash chip Feb 15 15:43:53 frankly if this os is going to be designed to work on all sorts of embedded systems, 256mb will probably be a fair bit over the limit Feb 15 15:44:02 nid0: there's "embedded" and tehre's "embedded" Feb 15 15:44:08 Lantizia: why your choice of desktop distribution affects anything? Feb 15 15:44:08 http://duncan.mac-vicar.com/blog/archives/296 has some details about some of the optimizations they did in zypp :-) Feb 15 15:44:14 for super small embedded, that's just a very different OS Feb 15 15:44:21 for super small embedded you don't even want glibc Feb 15 15:44:29 sandsmark: dpkg also needs a new parser. Feb 15 15:44:34 Mirv: I like having the same basic tools and package management between my desktops, servers and pda's Feb 15 15:44:35 (but not having glibc throws compatibility out of the water, it then really is a new OS) Feb 15 15:44:37 juliank: is someone working on it? Feb 15 15:44:38 pinsh: Sure, and al it really has to contain is a bunch of symlinks and/or mount points. Feb 15 15:44:45 Mirv: I have that right now... debian, ubuntu, maemo Feb 15 15:44:50 why the hell should that change Feb 15 15:44:53 if not, I understand the reason for switching to RPMs even better Feb 15 15:44:58 if dpkg is basically on life-support... Feb 15 15:45:05 it's not! Feb 15 15:45:15 AVee: yeah.. but the it will be slow Feb 15 15:45:18 I don't think there's a 'reason' going one way or the other, it's just that something had to be chosen Feb 15 15:45:19 Lantizia: right so.. well I'm not so strict, although I currently run Debian or Ubuntu on all my devices (NAS, laptop, phone) Feb 15 15:45:20 arjan_: right Feb 15 15:45:21 where is the best documentation for rpms? Feb 15 15:45:33 lcuk: redhat site? Feb 15 15:45:35 and by best, i mean probably deb->rpm maintainers guide Feb 15 15:45:47 Mirv: my NAS is ipkg based but I can even put debian on that Feb 15 15:45:47 lcuk: alien? Feb 15 15:45:47 Lantizia: have you considered that maybe it's just *you* who has to adjust a little? And many other devs as well? The leap isn't that huge. Why not relax. They won't switch to deb anyway, so why this fuss? Feb 15 15:45:49 zumbi, i asked the question, im at work so cant dig Feb 15 15:45:50 lcuk: for packaging them? I would suggest using some tool like spectacle or specbuilder Feb 15 15:45:55 someone that knows can find links easier Feb 15 15:45:58 the reason why RPM based would be better - NO ONE has said why yet! Feb 15 15:46:05 lcuk: heh, I was googling for tutorials right now Feb 15 15:46:06 overview documentation Feb 15 15:46:09 sandsmark: No idea. But don't forget that we also have much more packages than RPM based distributions; for me 50,000 package entries to read on apt-get update; and /var/lib/dpkg/status needs to be read on dpkg update. Feb 15 15:46:10 I would use Fedora also but it wasn't a proper choice for a mini laptop with a slow SSD Feb 15 15:46:18 to stop the flames lets get info in peoples hands Feb 15 15:46:26 Lantizia: yeah, I never used vendor's firmware, put Debian the first day on it Feb 15 15:46:29 lcuk: though I'd guess I need to install a RPM distro first. Feb 15 15:46:34 Lantizia: they probably just stuck with it because moblin was using it. Feb 15 15:46:39 that's all. move along Feb 15 15:46:41 juliank: still, it's not orders of magnitudes more packages in debian Feb 15 15:46:47 hey folks - might be already asked (but not in the faq): any words on n900 support already? Feb 15 15:46:52 Shapeshifter: well thats a crap reason since Maemo already has a working community Feb 15 15:46:54 juliank: so I doubt the amount of packages really matters Feb 15 15:46:56 Lantizia: i am a big DEB fun, imho but it fails in many ways for embedded stuff Feb 15 15:46:56 well, i hope they will switch to a source based distribution when devices get fast enough (3..5years?).. so we can use ebuilds instead of creating stuipd rpm's ;-) Feb 15 15:46:57 but given virtualization I don't really care what's running inside it that I'm developing for Feb 15 15:47:10 the same should happen with many of the things we take for granted in maemo Feb 15 15:47:11 MeeGo = Maemo + Moblin.... so why does Moblin get first choice? Feb 15 15:47:14 if this is a combination Feb 15 15:47:17 maemo community consists of guys who can learn rpm quickly Feb 15 15:47:17 zumbi: that's where you have opkg :P Feb 15 15:47:21 Lantizia: because DEB is dead, apparently :-P Feb 15 15:47:25 no it's not! Feb 15 15:47:28 Lantizia: ... Feb 15 15:47:30 Lantizia: for some reason, they decided to use moblin for the base. Probably because there will be a lot more atom based stuff in the future. Feb 15 15:47:32 who the hell said deb is dead!? Feb 15 15:47:34 Lantizia: you're just spouting random crap :-P Feb 15 15:47:34 #moblin people who already have the documation available can help us Feb 15 15:47:35 villemv: lol Feb 15 15:47:36 eff this, lets go gentoo and compile everything on the device! .... *crickets* Feb 15 15:47:37 Dr_Cain: sure, opkg is fine Feb 15 15:47:38 because intel has its hand in it. Feb 15 15:48:02 Synthaxx: wait a few years.. Feb 15 15:48:04 what would be the nearest desktop distro to moblin, in packaging policies? Feb 15 15:48:12 fedora?!? Feb 15 15:48:19 opensuse? I'm asking. Feb 15 15:48:25 here's the zypper frontend to rpm - http://en.opensuse.org/Zypper/Usage Feb 15 15:48:26 pinsh: please, please, PLEASE be joking ;) Feb 15 15:48:29 juliank: I don't think meego aims to be something that needs those 50k packages, since it's more specifically targetted than say, Debian Feb 15 15:48:30 javispedro: moblin is sort of on its own Feb 15 15:48:30 any words on n900 support already? Feb 15 15:48:38 javispedro: with spectacle/specbuilder as prefered method Feb 15 15:48:43 screw this, now I have a good excuse to install opensuse on my hobby machine Feb 15 15:48:56 javispedro: (if your packge uses autoconf/pkgconfig, you don't even see specfiles in practice if you use either of these two) Feb 15 15:48:58 Lantizia: YOu have seen that moblin switches over to Qt? So who got first choice there? Your complaints are pretty absurd. Feb 15 15:48:59 perhaps it will even have a kde with functional sound Feb 15 15:49:14 Lantizia: deb is not dead, it just need some changes to be suitable for embedded, like enourmous Packages file parsing, perl dependencies, .. But even that deb/dpkg has very good quality Feb 15 15:49:15 Shapeshifter: no, rpms make sense because Nokia want a base distro where they can manage the releases at a commercial level - and moblin is that Feb 15 15:49:21 villemv: I'm actually waiting for someone to say the name of the distro that will be my desktop's primary one for the years to come :) Feb 15 15:49:23 zumbi: changes that noone is working on Feb 15 15:49:24 arjan, any chance rpm would work with quilt at some point? Feb 15 15:49:39 range: Yeah, I'd take RPM with QT over .deb with GTK any day. Feb 15 15:49:39 jmk: it already does. Feb 15 15:49:43 lbt: Aha. commercial level? Feb 15 15:49:44 sandsmark: we are, but we are few people and it is hard tto convince community Feb 15 15:49:44 rpm/quilt work fine Feb 15 15:49:45 AVee++ Feb 15 15:49:46 javispedroOS? Feb 15 15:49:48 jmk: and quilt works with rpm Feb 15 15:49:55 you mean the windriver way? Feb 15 15:49:59 jmk: quilt was written in its current form here at opensuse. i use it every day. Feb 15 15:50:00 javispedro: I have heard only good things about opensuse, t least. Fedora might be the "bleeding-it's-guts-out edge" version Feb 15 15:50:00 AVee: ... and don't mention clutter Feb 15 15:50:01 (with rpm) Feb 15 15:50:07 zumbi: so you agree that RPM is the best choice for meego Feb 15 15:50:22 villemv: just want to know which one will be nearest to meego. Feb 15 15:50:30 i won't touch opensuse - too much novell involvement Feb 15 15:50:33 lbt, does your OBS use rpms? Feb 15 15:50:37 yes Feb 15 15:50:38 javispedro: neither, probably Feb 15 15:50:46 lbt: among other things Feb 15 15:50:47 arjan, any pointers to how it works out with it? I've just used the windriver incarnation that does suck Feb 15 15:50:50 s/lib/lcuk/ Feb 15 15:50:51 since both have normal dekstop window managers etc Feb 15 15:50:52 OBS does rpm/deb/x86/armel combinations Feb 15 15:50:52 sandsmark: i am a DEB power user, i would like to use DEB, but format is not best for embedded. Like someone said opkg, maybe rpm Feb 15 15:50:56 Lantizia: Can't we have Netware then? Feb 15 15:51:15 novell have me my favourite WM. Feb 15 15:51:18 <_paul_c_> rpm is an icky nightmare when everyone ships packages with $random dependencies and busted install scripts. At least .deb "does what it says on the tin." Feb 15 15:51:18 *gave Feb 15 15:51:22 jmk: current quilt just parses spec files by itself Feb 15 15:51:26 villemv: that's right, especially because meego doesn't base on fedora/opensuse/anything but is a distro of its own Feb 15 15:51:28 and OBS could do .msi, .jar, .c60 and whatever else package you like Feb 15 15:51:30 _paul_c_: agreed Feb 15 15:51:35 arjan, ok. cool. Feb 15 15:51:39 wstephenson: we avoid mentioning that Feb 15 15:51:48 _paul_c_: *.deb's can also have busted dependencies, and busted install scripts... Feb 15 15:51:57 _paul_c_: I spent a summer fighting with this :-P Feb 15 15:51:59 lbt: sorry :) Feb 15 15:52:05 as have rpm's Feb 15 15:52:05 heh Feb 15 15:52:05 sandsmark: but atleast they try to download the right ones Feb 15 15:52:06 sandsmark: emdebian.org/crush Feb 15 15:52:07 OBS is a build-system manager, not a build-system Feb 15 15:52:07 As long as I can --force-all with rpm, I'm game :-) Feb 15 15:52:10 Dr_Cain: uh, no Feb 15 15:52:12 or you can edit the deps in the package Feb 15 15:52:35 <_paul_c_> and I've wasted more than enough time sorting halfbaked rpms (not saying deb is perfect either) Feb 15 15:52:46 zumbi: but they haven't worked on the package management at all? Feb 15 15:52:46 (in a sense. of course all FLOSS bases on somethingn) Feb 15 15:52:53 _paul_c_: worth highlighting issues with .rpm packaging Feb 15 15:52:58 _paul_c_: deb/rpm doesn't factor into that Feb 15 15:53:06 well, we can only expect half-baked debs or rpms from third parties Feb 15 15:53:14 I've seen some pretty scary debs in my life Feb 15 15:53:23 me too Feb 15 15:53:24 villemv: did you marry any of them? :-) Feb 15 15:53:25 but isn't deb basically a control file, a preinst script, a postinst script, and some tar/ar/cpio/gz/bz2/lzma compressed files? Feb 15 15:53:29 hah Feb 15 15:53:29 s/deb/rpm/ Feb 15 15:53:31 * _paul_c_ can think of one halfarsed .deb Feb 15 15:53:38 like already said, debian has good policies and therefore good quality packages Feb 15 15:53:38 sandsmark: yes we have, but not cleanly applied to debian Feb 15 15:53:39 villemv: you're kidding right? Feb 15 15:53:43 ok Feb 15 15:53:50 lbt: 70% Feb 15 15:53:50 half-baked debs.... look at maemo :) Feb 15 15:53:55 hrhr Feb 15 15:53:59 can deb use 7z compression instead of gz ? Feb 15 15:53:59 heh Feb 15 15:54:10 Mirv: That doesn't keep people from doing bad debs. Feb 15 15:54:21 thebootroo: yes, although I think xz already succeeded 7z Feb 15 15:54:22 well, I don't really care about what package format they use, unless they use .pkg.tar.gz's from arch, then I would be very happy :-P Feb 15 15:54:27 Nah, QA and clear policy is the answer Feb 15 15:54:30 Mirv: xz == lzma Feb 15 15:54:33 * javispedro can perfectly create awful packages in both rpm and deb file formats Feb 15 15:54:33 * aquatix remembers pushing the 7z dev to release a linux version Feb 15 15:54:35 range: it doesn't, but it helps to keep the quality of those debs in Debian good Feb 15 15:54:37 Fedora also has a good packaging policy, and still there are awful rpms somewhere out there, but not in the fedora repositories. Feb 15 15:54:40 one thing I *love* about debian is the policy Feb 15 15:54:52 sod .deb debates Feb 15 15:54:52 "Maemo has joined Meego". Nice. Feb 15 15:54:58 Mirv: And that is why I don't understand the discussion here. Feb 15 15:55:01 is xz compression higher than 7z ? Feb 15 15:55:07 You can do awful things with both packaging formats. Feb 15 15:55:07 range: me neither Feb 15 15:55:08 I'd like to see the rpm/meego packaging policy... jeremiah... Feb 15 15:55:25 lbt: I'm pretty sure we'll "inherit" Moblins. Feb 15 15:55:26 hi :) Feb 15 15:55:27 thebootroo: 7zip uses LZMA Feb 15 15:55:30 ok Feb 15 15:55:42 javispedro: then we need to critique the crap out of it ASAP Feb 15 15:55:43 Ok, somebody some info on QGraphicsView vs. Clutter? Feb 15 15:55:45 * Synthaxx renames MAEMO to MEEGO Feb 15 15:55:53 because they'll only listen in the early days javispedro Feb 15 15:55:55 What will meego do? Clutter or QGraphicsView? Feb 15 15:55:56 :° Feb 15 15:56:04 ah ebassi just joined Feb 15 15:56:04 sandsmark: it would be nice to see RPM/DEB merging (fullfiling embedded requirements) Feb 15 15:56:05 so Feb 15 15:56:07 asking again Feb 15 15:56:09 What will meego do? Clutter or QGraphicsView? Feb 15 15:56:09 <_paul_c_> but then real geeks would use LFS Feb 15 15:56:11 so which compression tool has best performance ( compression time, compression level) ? Feb 15 15:56:15 That's for ebassi :) Feb 15 15:56:26 thebootroo: can you get anymore offtopic? Feb 15 15:56:30 (Im guessing 'undecided' atm) Feb 15 15:56:31 thebootroo: way, way deep topic Feb 15 15:57:06 so, who are you voting for in "Big Brother" ? Feb 15 15:57:13 pvanhoof: QGraphicsView Feb 15 15:57:16 villemv, okay Feb 15 15:57:18 lbt: Clutter. Feb 15 15:57:28 heh Feb 15 15:57:39 pvanhoof: they are moving whole-hog to Qt anyway Feb 15 15:57:48 villemv, right, this is why I was asking Feb 15 15:57:51 i'm not offtopic : for mibile you need lightweithg files and low consuption so in deb format i know you can use many format for compressing, so which one is the best ? Feb 15 15:58:06 villemv, will the Clutter experts be reassigned to improve QGraphicsView too? Or how will this work out? Feb 15 15:58:28 villemv, (i'm okay with 'no decision, no answer' btw :p) Feb 15 15:58:39 pvanhoof: clutter is not going away Feb 15 15:58:43 pvanhoof: good question, I assume Intel will hash out that among themselves :-) Feb 15 15:58:45 Mirv: in answer to your question about package quality, we have got a lot of rpmlint and other checks at opensuse that have really improved package quality a lot recently, and make accepting community contributions a lot less work for the gatekeepers. Feb 15 15:58:48 arjan_, sure, opensource never goes away Feb 15 15:58:56 villemv, okay Feb 15 15:59:01 sandsmark: see 1st comment, http://stick.gk2.sk/blog/2009/10/rpm-summit-at-the-opensuse-conference-2009/ Feb 15 15:59:15 arjan_, but it's always interesting to know where the focus will be Feb 15 15:59:30 pvanhoof: also QT and clutter are not comparable Feb 15 15:59:33 wstephenson: urls? Feb 15 15:59:36 too bad FOSDEM was last week Feb 15 15:59:37 pvanhoof: they are sort of different levels of the stack Feb 15 15:59:44 clutter is being used by Chrome OS among others anyway Feb 15 15:59:46 zumbi: well, wouldn't dpkg have to be turned into a proper library? Feb 15 15:59:50 pvanhoof, according to how this mornin played out, focus will be on pitched battle between deb vs rpm supporters Feb 15 15:59:54 you want some popcorn Feb 15 15:59:55 (and from what I've seen of the dpkg codebase, it's not very attractive..) Feb 15 15:59:57 lol Feb 15 16:00:01 regarding RPM vs DEB, I've added some points on the mailing list Feb 15 16:00:03 arjan_, no sure, but I guess apps will be developed either mostly qt based, or qgraphicsview, or clutter based Feb 15 16:00:04 wstephenson: sounds good, worth looking at definitely how you do thaD[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[Dt Feb 15 16:00:06 lbt: http://en.opensuse.org/Packaging/RpmLint Feb 15 16:00:07 if intel + nokia fucks this up, I'll organize some n900 burning next year :) Feb 15 16:00:07 yeah, deb vs. rpm is the only thing of importance here Feb 15 16:00:19 lcuk, I don't care about deb vs. rpm Feb 15 16:00:27 lcuk, it's nice for popcorn, yeah Feb 15 16:00:28 hence the popcorn Feb 15 16:00:30 szbalint: just flash it with android Feb 15 16:00:31 lbt: that's not the canonical list of checks, always being added to Feb 15 16:00:32 sandsmark: at least developers are in favor this option, but still does not make it suitable for embedded Feb 15 16:00:36 lcuk, it's mostly the idiots who care about that debate Feb 15 16:00:37 sorry, mobile connectiviy :S Feb 15 16:00:40 pvanhoof: it has been said that Qt is the supported one (basically the same story as w/ Maemo 6) Feb 15 16:00:41 aquatix: there is pain and there is torture Feb 15 16:00:42 :) Feb 15 16:00:44 Heres a question... Ubuntu had that Mobile edition ("Moblin based" ? - or - "Moblin standards" - something to do with moblin)... yet DEB (DAMN IT - DEB) based... so why can't maemo continue... and just have a Moblin standard base? Feb 15 16:00:48 wstephenson: is rpmlint the 'container' or are there other things? Feb 15 16:00:50 villemv, okay Feb 15 16:01:02 pvanhoof: thiago pointed that out a while ago here Feb 15 16:01:03 villemv, still, it's quite a decision for Intel Feb 15 16:01:17 szbalint: given nokias track record there's no reason to even beleive we'll get an upgrade to M6, let alone meego/moblo/maemgo Feb 15 16:01:19 Lantizia: It could, but Nokia does not want to do the work. Feb 15 16:01:23 yeah, this has much more implications for Intel than for Nokia Feb 15 16:01:28 juliank: We will! Feb 15 16:01:44 Hey, I heard folks here were looking for RPM tutorials, resources, etc. Feb 15 16:02:04 * mchua isn't an RPM expert, but there are a fair number of 'em hanging out in #fedora-devel Feb 15 16:02:05 mchua: maybe a little early, but it would certainly be more on topic than most of the stuff here :) Feb 15 16:02:06 lcuk, although I know some people who'll be very busy with converting maemo debs to rpms :) Feb 15 16:02:11 lcuk, which will be fun to watch Feb 15 16:02:26 hello Feb 15 16:02:28 oh hey mchua Feb 15 16:02:31 it's time for yet another package abstraction layer to shrine Feb 15 16:02:41 actually, a bunch of us in Fedora-land have been talking about doing a group study of making RPMs - packaging classes - if that'd be of interest to the folks here Feb 15 16:02:46 pvanhoof, we all have to at some point Feb 15 16:02:53 the faq says "MeeGo builds upon the Moblin core software platform and reference user experiences, adding the Qt UI toolkit from Maemo." does it mean everything else like hildon stuff are left behind? Feb 15 16:02:54 mchua: yes there seem to be a lot of deb users here who are scared witless because meego chose to go with rpm Feb 15 16:03:07 guardian: YES Feb 15 16:03:12 guardian: that was implied even before MeeGO Feb 15 16:03:14 lcuk, you're involved in that? or as a maemo-community member maintaining a community package? Feb 15 16:03:17 guardian: Yes. Same as with maemo6. Feb 15 16:03:18 lbt: there's another set of brp checks that are run by rpm itself Feb 15 16:03:24 mchua: now why hadn't i heard about that :P if you need some helpers, i'd be willed to do some basic ones... Feb 15 16:03:26 mchua: most probably later in the spring when the code becomes available, such stuff would be very welcome Feb 15 16:03:30 auch rpm no good :\ Feb 15 16:03:39 rpm is good. Feb 15 16:03:49 mchua: and in moblin/meego land we use tools like specbuilder/spectacle, so that most packagers don't even see specfiles Feb 15 16:03:49 yngwin, to be honest, should they be interested in the libraries in the platform more than the package system Feb 15 16:03:51 *sighs* Feb 15 16:04:00 * javispedro is secretly planning to unveil his all-new packaging file format, late tonight at the barcelona mobile congress. Feb 15 16:04:01 they just write the minimal metadata and the rest is autopackaged Feb 15 16:04:01 pvanhoof: indeed Feb 15 16:04:06 whatever the case, people need to learn about rpm. including myself :P at some point. Feb 15 16:04:16 ;P javispedro Feb 15 16:04:19 So does this mean future Nokia Nxxx series devices will be Intel Atom? Feb 15 16:04:21 pack it in beer? Feb 15 16:04:21 i'm very happy they chose to go with Qt4 as base lib Feb 15 16:04:23 not if we don't upgrade ;) Feb 15 16:04:25 yngwin: Hm. There's a fellow named Peter Robinson (irc nick pbrobinson) in Fedora-land who's been doing our Moblin stuff, he'd probably be a good one to help folks get started Feb 15 16:04:33 I do maintain a fair number of .deb packages, but my rpm knowledge is on the level of "I've seen a .spec file" Feb 15 16:04:37 mchua: actually it's not Feb 15 16:04:37 Lantizia: definitely not Feb 15 16:04:43 lbt: do you also know about the specfile generating stuff that we have coming up in the OBS? Feb 15 16:04:48 villemv: then the advantage for Intel is what then? Feb 15 16:04:54 mchua: moblin and meego have different policies than fedora. Feb 15 16:04:57 I developed an hildon input method plugin that brings handwriting recognition, is there a new input method framework in meego? Feb 15 16:05:00 Lantizia: Brainshare. Feb 15 16:05:01 using fedora policies is not a good step for this Feb 15 16:05:02 higher power requirement? :D Feb 15 16:05:11 Lantizia: ubiquituous platform Feb 15 16:05:11 Same apps on the tablet as on the phone. Feb 15 16:05:11 arjan_: why not? Feb 15 16:05:13 And so on. Feb 15 16:05:14 lbt: might help people migrate stuff for which there is not already a specfile at another rpm distro that they can crib off Feb 15 16:05:17 Someone needs to inform Imad Sousou how "Qt" is pronounced Feb 15 16:05:24 fedora policies are individually appliable. and they have proven themselves in the past. Feb 15 16:05:31 th0br0: because we use specbuilder/spectacle as prefered method of packaging most stuff Feb 15 16:05:32 jefferai: how does he pronounce it? Feb 15 16:05:37 Q-T Feb 15 16:05:44 * wstephenson passes jefferai the popcorn Feb 15 16:05:46 cute Feb 15 16:05:48 ;) Feb 15 16:05:49 wstephenson: not heard that Feb 15 16:05:51 qute Feb 15 16:05:55 th0br0: awesome - it sounds like this is going to need a lot of help Feb 15 16:05:55 jefferai: what is the right pronunciation then? Feb 15 16:05:57 might go back to mandriva Feb 15 16:05:58 Cute Feb 15 16:06:05 Qt is pronounced "cute", "queue tee" is for Apple's QuickTime, right? Feb 15 16:06:05 wstephenson: :-D Feb 15 16:06:08 now the kawaii desktop environment needs to become the default environment on meebo Feb 15 16:06:15 lbt: check adrian schroeters talk or mine from fosdem Feb 15 16:06:17 mchua: i guess some other guys from #fedora-de might be willed to help out too Feb 15 16:06:22 *nod* Feb 15 16:06:26 arjan_: what is specbuilder o.O Feb 15 16:06:30 jefferai: +1 when i heard him, i was chocked Feb 15 16:06:31 swap from server,desktop,pda being debian,ubuntu,maemo to centos,mandriva,meego Feb 15 16:06:38 jefferai: yeah, but "cute" sucks ;-D Feb 15 16:06:42 th0br0: tool to mostly autopacakge things that use autoconf Feb 15 16:06:46 arjan_: is spectacle specbuilder documented somewhere? Feb 15 16:06:47 (and pkgconfig) Feb 15 16:06:51 ebassi: doesn't matter -- it's how it's pronounced Feb 15 16:06:54 duh, that sucks. where is the beauty in not doing it oneself Feb 15 16:06:57 google returns 13 results.... Feb 15 16:07:03 lbt: basically pluggable package parsers that spit out debian control files or rpm specfiles. we have implementations for qmake and cmake already Feb 15 16:07:05 "Cute" goes well with the pink scheme and the name "MeeGo" Feb 15 16:07:07 javispedro: there is, and I'm sure it comes to meego.com in the next few days/weeks as the dust settles Feb 15 16:07:15 arjan_: ah, nice. Feb 15 16:07:19 so, I'm new to maemo/moblin/meego... if we were putting together some rpm-learning resources, what's the right list/blog/etc. to announce them on so people in those communities could find 'em? Feb 15 16:07:26 javispedro: I think it's on git.moblin.org right now including examples Feb 15 16:07:33 mchua: CC maemo-developers at least Feb 15 16:07:38 villemv: wait till you see the pedobear scheme, i hear it might become THE standard :) Feb 15 16:07:42 arjan_: so whom do you work for? nokia or intel? Feb 15 16:07:46 lol Synthaxx Feb 15 16:07:48 lol Feb 15 16:07:53 haha Feb 15 16:07:58 sounds interesting Feb 15 16:07:59 th0br0: I work for Intel. Feb 15 16:08:00 ok, I think I've had enough for today now ;) Feb 15 16:08:03 I notice that in their video they don't mention Telepathy Feb 15 16:08:06 mchua: there is meego-devel@meego.com Feb 15 16:08:12 4chan as front page of MeeGo browser Feb 15 16:08:19 lol villemv. i'd support that! Feb 15 16:08:27 arjan_: are you the kernel dev/powertop/latencytop guy btw? Feb 15 16:08:30 th0br0: gotcha, danke! Feb 15 16:08:31 szbalint: yes Feb 15 16:08:37 yw mchua Feb 15 16:09:13 <_paul_c_> damit. Kodak 1443 is discontinued. Feb 15 16:09:24 * _paul_c_ goes to shoot someone. Feb 15 16:09:31 mchua: also maemo-dev and maybe use the maemo wiki too Feb 15 16:09:42 I don't think there's a meego wiki yet Feb 15 16:09:55 lbt: you'd be surprised...http://wiki.meego.com/ Feb 15 16:10:17 does Andriod use Qt bits or GTK bits? Feb 15 16:10:19 javispedro: I asked - just didn't type the url .... ta Feb 15 16:10:24 Lantizia: neither... they did their own Feb 15 16:10:30 thought so :S Feb 15 16:10:31 Lantizia: the kernel Feb 15 16:10:40 Lantizia: neither... apparently they wanted to do it in 3d first but went for 2d in the end Feb 15 16:10:47 Can anyone name another GTK / Deb based mobile OS? Feb 15 16:10:48 like Maemo 5 Feb 15 16:10:49 their ui is not bad. Feb 15 16:10:50 * javispedro ponders if meego.com uses midgard Feb 15 16:10:58 Lantizia: a couple of openmoko distributions Feb 15 16:11:01 javispedro: no. Feb 15 16:11:07 openmoko is more dead than maemo Feb 15 16:11:07 javispedro: drupal! Feb 15 16:11:11 midgard sucks. Feb 15 16:11:15 Lantizia: that's true. Feb 15 16:11:16 heh. Feb 15 16:11:29 although that might very well be due to the server running midgard Feb 15 16:11:30 this is really fucked up, maemo shouldn't be dead yet Feb 15 16:11:32 oh look the wiki and the .com usernames aren't linked.... X-Fade.... Feb 15 16:11:35 i don't know nor can i judge it Feb 15 16:11:51 in fact I have quite a hard time returning to the main site from the wiki Feb 15 16:11:52 Lantizia: the term you're looking for is stillborn Feb 15 16:11:53 huh lbt? they are linked, aren't they? Feb 15 16:11:54 lbt: I have nothing to do with it, sorry. Feb 15 16:11:57 it needs quite a bit of navigation work. Feb 15 16:11:58 javispedro: it's plone Feb 15 16:12:14 you guys really don't miss a beat when it comes to flame something? :D qt, gtk, deb, rpm, x11, and now cms:es.. :D Feb 15 16:12:17 th0br0: doesn't ask me for my Openid or notice I'm already logged in Feb 15 16:12:26 X-Fade: kidding Feb 15 16:12:37 this channel should be renamed to ##flamefest Feb 15 16:12:38 lbt: if you log in on the wiki with your .com credentials, it works though Feb 15 16:12:40 Knirch: :D Feb 15 16:13:13 javispedro: tghere is a link in the left menu ... wiki navigation -> Return to Meego.com Feb 15 16:13:20 th0br0: yeah Feb 15 16:13:41 bva: yes, but it's hardly visible, and also one naively tries to click on the logo (which returns to the wiki frontpage instead) Feb 15 16:13:53 I did that ^^ Feb 15 16:13:56 th0br0: where do I report the bug ? Feb 15 16:13:57 javispedro: i prefer that towards logo click -> main page Feb 15 16:14:06 lbt: there is no bug tracker yet Feb 15 16:14:11 Feb 15 16:14:16 there will be a bugzilla in future according to the wiki Feb 15 16:15:02 th0br0: do we get karma for wiki edits yet ;) Feb 15 16:15:14 * lbt ducks Feb 15 16:15:20 https://bugs.maemo.org/ Feb 15 16:15:23 I'm not sure whether meego will have a karma system at all, at least i didn't see any such notice on the page or the wiki Feb 15 16:15:44 huh bva? Feb 15 16:15:45 good luck explaining that on t.m.o Feb 15 16:16:35 well, I'm just a bystander so gladly that won't be my task Feb 15 16:16:41 maybe it IS a good time to kill karma Feb 15 16:16:48 th0br0: you said there will be a bugzilla and I provided the link (ppl can bookmark it already ;) ) Feb 15 16:16:57 Lantizia: there was a distro called hackable:1 presented at fosdem. "a debian/gnome based distro for mobile" Feb 15 16:17:00 bva you provided the maemo.org link though Feb 15 16:17:12 Lantizia: there also is SHR Feb 15 16:17:13 th0br0: ow ... crap Feb 15 16:17:16 :P bva Feb 15 16:17:50 javispedro: what is the purpose of karma anyway? Feb 15 16:17:57 th0br0: and silly me thinking I did something usefull Feb 15 16:18:05 nbd Feb 15 16:18:28 karma is a 'contribution metric' Feb 15 16:18:35 it's flawed Feb 15 16:18:42 Karma == whore enough, get cheap phonez Feb 15 16:18:55 yeah villemv. and some n900 dev phone possibly Feb 15 16:19:14 wstephenson: th0br0: think I'm just going to pack the N900 and agree with the rest of the office and go Android Feb 15 16:19:15 it's not a bad idea Feb 15 16:19:22 Lantizia: bye Feb 15 16:19:28 what are you gonna do with your n900 then, Lantizia? Feb 15 16:19:30 Lantizia: you still here? Feb 15 16:19:32 sell it Feb 15 16:19:34 Lantizia: see you! o/~ Feb 15 16:19:35 $10 Feb 15 16:19:35 It's a bit silly that you get karma for discussions... I really get why you get it for bugzilla activity / development Feb 15 16:19:40 $20 Feb 15 16:19:46 $25 Feb 15 16:19:49 $26 Feb 15 16:19:52 60eur Feb 15 16:19:54 $26.50 Feb 15 16:19:58 €70 Feb 15 16:19:59 villemv: you get it for thanked posts. it used to work fine, until it got crazy. Feb 15 16:20:01 ;) Feb 15 16:20:06 minimum reservation not yet met Feb 15 16:20:07 Lantizia: i was a java UI developer once. never again. Feb 15 16:20:13 100eur Feb 15 16:20:15 wstephenson: I love developing in java Feb 15 16:20:18 Lantizia: It has value to you? Feb 15 16:20:20 wstephenson: android's got nothing to do with the original java UI Feb 15 16:20:26 111€ Feb 15 16:20:30 but no, i'm out. Feb 15 16:20:30 lbt: yeah since I paid £500 for it Feb 15 16:20:40 the karma/discussion thing bugs me too Feb 15 16:20:46 th0br0: i fear i am permanently Qtaminated now though :) Feb 15 16:20:52 but I agree there is more to community than devs Feb 15 16:20:52 :) wstephenson Feb 15 16:20:52 people get "thanked" for cheap opinion pieces Feb 15 16:21:00 as a sign of "I agree" Feb 15 16:21:08 villemv: I agree. Feb 15 16:21:13 d'oh!. Feb 15 16:21:15 Thanks Feb 15 16:21:20 :-) Feb 15 16:21:26 personally I think you should lose about 1000 karma for using a forum... but that's me Feb 15 16:21:32 heh Feb 15 16:21:57 10 visits to talk.maemo.org = -10000 karma Feb 15 16:22:05 in short, what in meego comes from moblin that maemo lacks? because if only Qt comes from maemo, then... well meego = moblin + Qt and maemo is not relevant Feb 15 16:22:09 -10 points per post .... you'd better make it worth reading to get 10 thanks! Feb 15 16:22:11 villemv, I recall that there was a Maemo partnership (at least on package-level) with Ubuntu-mobile, how will that work now that RPM is the package system of MeeGo? Feb 15 16:22:25 villemv, I guess that's the only interesting package-system question I can come up with :D Feb 15 16:22:36 pvanhoof: was that the Mer thing? Feb 15 16:22:48 lbt, I don't know how much of it is still existing Feb 15 16:22:50 dunno about ubuntu-mobile, really Feb 15 16:22:54 guardian: i'd hope that the functional architecture and app integration from maemo5 gets taken Feb 15 16:22:56 Was it called Mer? Feb 15 16:23:04 Mer is different, right Feb 15 16:23:05 * lbt is the Mer build guy Feb 15 16:23:08 contacts/phone/calendar/metadata all works very nicely on maemo5 Feb 15 16:23:10 we tried to engage ubuntu mobile Feb 15 16:23:22 they were interested but never really engaged Feb 15 16:23:39 so it was a bit of a damp squid Feb 15 16:23:56 hej. :) Feb 15 16:23:59 think the whole point in meego is to give up ubuntu/debian and go for a new base : moblin Feb 15 16:24:00 Mer is technically based on Ubuntu Feb 15 16:24:21 but we use OBS so we don't care too much :D Feb 15 16:24:30 what window manager will meego use? Feb 15 16:24:46 lbt: OBS == easy distro promiscuity for packagers Feb 15 16:24:50 probably an internal Qt based one Feb 15 16:24:52 yngwin: probably the same as moblin i'm guessing Feb 15 16:24:57 a new window manager written in qt Feb 15 16:25:02 kwin! Feb 15 16:25:08 no Feb 15 16:25:10 I hope the wm will be dependent on wheter it's "netbook" UX or "tablet" UX Feb 15 16:25:10 fvwm95! plx plx Feb 15 16:25:13 oh poo Feb 15 16:25:14 OBS - comes with alimony insurance Feb 15 16:25:15 (an old window manager written in qt :P) Feb 15 16:25:15 :) Feb 15 16:25:28 else you risk being "yet another desktop UI on a tablet" Feb 15 16:25:29 lbt, ok I see Feb 15 16:25:38 or "yet another oversized iphone" Feb 15 16:25:41 lbt: on the tshirt slogan front we were going to suggest "OBS - Gentoo for busy people" Feb 15 16:25:51 lbt, so the usual Ubuntu thing? Being interested but not engaged :) Feb 15 16:25:52 :) Feb 15 16:25:58 pvanhoof: yeah Feb 15 16:26:00 Right Feb 15 16:26:10 We're used to that in the development community Feb 15 16:26:22 pvanhoof: ubuntu is its own plane of existence. Feb 15 16:26:23 funnily enough Mer tried to engage moblin about 9 months ago... Feb 15 16:26:28 iphone is not a reference for wm since its not multiwindowed Feb 15 16:26:28 wstephenson, sure Feb 15 16:26:36 (fine for me, if they make a good distro, good) Feb 15 16:26:39 to see if we could pull the moblin stuff into a 'free' maemo Feb 15 16:26:50 they weren't that bothered then :) Feb 15 16:26:57 now you can :-) Feb 15 16:27:09 thebootroo: exactly. I expect a netbook WM to be "partly" windowed, but I wouldn't expect a tablet WM to be windowed. Feb 15 16:27:15 "as windowed". Feb 15 16:27:21 coffee .... l8r Feb 15 16:27:25 since of course you always have windows. Feb 15 16:27:31 lbt, ok, perhaps ubuntu somehow joins anyhow. With the RPM stuff sounds kinda hard. But who knows Feb 15 16:27:47 javispedro: wait i have something for you Feb 15 16:27:47 so either they release the über wm, or moblin keeps its wm and maemo keeps its wm. Feb 15 16:27:51 alien -i maemo-rpm.rpm :) Feb 15 16:28:11 With the right amount of pragmatism, things become possible :) Feb 15 16:28:13 is the maemo stuff going to remain separate, or transfer over? Feb 15 16:28:17 pvanhoof: hej Feb 15 16:28:23 hey solarion Feb 15 16:28:50 I don't think there will be a one-size fits all ui on top. Feb 15 16:29:04 Architecture sure doesn't show that. Feb 15 16:29:13 X-Fade: the arch diagram says there won't be Feb 15 16:29:36 Yeah, so you can never make an app that works on both. Feb 15 16:29:36 Oh guys, here's some nostalgia food: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4RjJKxsamQ Feb 15 16:29:44 so for now I have 3 targets: diablo, freemantle, and meego whever it's ready to go. :) Feb 15 16:29:55 is harmattan going to be meego? Feb 15 16:30:13 so no Maemo 6 then? Feb 15 16:30:25 almost rickroll'd Feb 15 16:30:26 Maemo 6 will be MeeGo compatible. Feb 15 16:30:31 Though. Feb 15 16:30:40 Switching to RPM for M6 will be hard. Feb 15 16:30:42 So there will be both a Maemo 6 and a MeeGo 1.0 ? Feb 15 16:30:58 javispedro: my own wm, written in qt (not finished) : http://yfrog.com/17capture1iyp Feb 15 16:31:01 X-Fade: what does "MeeGo compatible" mean? Feb 15 16:31:10 (sorry for the mention of RPM. I meant, switching the base system to MeeGo's) Feb 15 16:31:13 solarion: Time will tell ;) Feb 15 16:31:24 villemv: benefit of not having Flash or h.264. ;) Feb 15 16:31:28 solarion: It is what Ari Jaaksi writes on his blog. Feb 15 16:31:45 X-Fade: *shrug* Feb 15 16:32:01 And he should know as he runs the whole thing ;) Feb 15 16:32:02 we all got rickrolled with this deb -> rpm change :P Feb 15 16:32:04 how is the Linux Foundation involved, aside from hving their logo on the website? Feb 15 16:32:37 solarion: Read the site itself ;) Feb 15 16:32:50 X-Fade: meego or ari's blahg/ Feb 15 16:33:14 X-Fade: Will there be any words on N900 support? Feb 15 16:33:16 solarion: Both Feb 15 16:33:35 awww, Flash video. :( Feb 15 16:33:36 scr4ve: No. Feb 15 16:33:37 guys is the holliday also in Canada atm? Feb 15 16:34:00 X-Fade: There WON'T be any announcements? Feb 15 16:34:04 aah, there we go Feb 15 16:34:15 the MGP lives "under the auspices of the LF" Feb 15 16:34:17 roit Feb 15 16:34:39 I know that there aren't any annoucements, just curious whether a statement will follow. Feb 15 16:34:40 scr4ve: Nokia will do so if it happens. Feb 15 16:35:15 X-Fade: IMHO this is not the best way to encourage the community, anyway. Feb 15 16:35:20 it has already been discussed here that even community could support mgo for "old" devices Feb 15 16:35:29 "currently use of GNU (L)GPL version 3 is discouraged." :( Feb 15 16:35:31 scr4ve: You're preaching to the choir. Feb 15 16:35:35 sorta like "Mer with money" Feb 15 16:36:06 ah, meego-dev is already getting rpm flames! Feb 15 16:36:12 * javispedro submits list info to gmane Feb 15 16:36:14 as long as there are drivers that should be possible Feb 15 16:36:16 *sigh* Feb 15 16:37:56 X-Fade: It's good that there'll be some degree of compat between Harmattan and MeeGo Feb 15 16:37:58 I (w/d)on't get that point. If porting is possible and easy, there wouldn't be a real reason why nokia neglects porting. Feb 15 16:38:01 make targetting easier Feb 15 16:38:08 (one hopes) Feb 15 16:38:48 scr4ve, to be perfectly honest, and im not a nokia employee or something, im actually freelance .. Feb 15 16:38:49 scr4ve: they already have your money would be a reason not to (j/k) Feb 15 16:39:00 scr4ve, but the community should better prepare for quite a lot of 'change' happening in mobile Feb 15 16:39:03 X-Fade: is it early enough to make sure that I get Free access to DSPs and GPUs and other flop-accelerators? :) Feb 15 16:39:20 scr4ve, as mobile is a field of huge amounts of innovation at this moment. And that always creates turbulence and change. Feb 15 16:40:02 solarion: Don't look at me ;) Feb 15 16:40:03 yeah. If you want things to stay still, buy something with S60 3.x ;-) Feb 15 16:40:12 scr4ve, im saying that it wont stop anytime soon. And "support for older hardware" is going to be a might, not a certainty, for quite some time Feb 15 16:40:13 * solarion looks right over X-Fade's left shoulder Feb 15 16:40:26 X-Fade: that's what she said ! Feb 15 16:40:27 god doesn't hide there. Feb 15 16:40:46 hey, we are on slashdot too Feb 15 16:40:48 Nokia really should put the efford in to making it a certainty Feb 15 16:41:00 Synthaxx: N900 is for early adopters and a lot of devs. There's still Android on the other side of the pond, so it's not time for nokia to upset them. Feb 15 16:41:08 nid0, im afraid that if it would focus a lot on that, that it would loose against all its competitors Feb 15 16:41:24 nid0, eventually things will settle, but that's about 5 to 10 years from now Feb 15 16:41:39 don't discount early adopters though, they are a large part of informing the regular users Feb 15 16:41:44 By that time some new cool momentum for another tech will be in turbulence Feb 15 16:41:45 scr4ve: Maemo 6 ui framework got released in extras-devel today for Maemo 5. Feb 15 16:41:46 not really, the way to build a foundation of a decent platform as nokia is trying to do is, initially, keep the early adopters happy. Feb 15 16:41:54 so in that way it would be in they're self interest to keep them happy Feb 15 16:42:08 well, developers / early adopters are not prone to be too happy on android side Feb 15 16:42:18 unless they are Java developers, of course Feb 15 16:42:29 * av500 has seen a lot of happy android devs Feb 15 16:42:33 "they have our money" is a ludicrously short-sighted view, if they can make early adopters happier with the platform than just one device coming along thats good when they buy it, they have future loyal customers as well as everyone else they recommend. Feb 15 16:42:36 villemv: Android has it advantages. Feb 15 16:42:38 villemv: yeah but it's really hard for them to program in their straightjackets ;) Feb 15 16:42:42 nid0, and your fremantle apps will continue being mostly compilable / easily portable to the next platform Feb 15 16:42:54 nid0, so as for early adopters, nokia is doing a quite good job here Feb 15 16:43:03 nid0: "They have access to hardware developers" OTOH, is a *very* good argument. :) Feb 15 16:43:13 The fact that your old phone can't run super new stuff, hardly surprises me Feb 15 16:43:29 nid0, Windows 95 also didn't run on a XT Feb 15 16:43:35 see also, all the support MSFT gets early that Linux doesn't because we don't have access to the hardware developers in order to get specs and our two cents in on the design) Feb 15 16:43:40 nid0, or did you forget about the era of the desktop? Feb 15 16:44:03 that depends, especially with the move to meego, which is ment for a larger audience than just phones, it'll need to run on older hardware too Feb 15 16:44:05 sure, but it applies end users as well as developers. an end user that sees "shit my phone's os is effectively dead in 8 months" will still get his use out of the phone and ported software etc, but an end user that sees "hey cool my sweet n900 gets the new software too" is one that then sticks with nokia's platform for future buys too. Feb 15 16:44:15 nid0, even Linux never ran on XT, and to find a Linux distro that runs on a 386 is going to be either quite a stripped one, or something ancient Feb 15 16:44:29 I think there's a kernel port to XT, but without the IP stack Feb 15 16:44:34 But anyway :) you know what I mean Feb 15 16:45:02 what we're talking about here is analogous to running linux on a 2 year old desktop Feb 15 16:45:15 commercially, Nokia and Intel are interested 0 in existing/old hardware Feb 15 16:45:27 nid0, during the desktop era I was also constantly thinking: shit my computer (which was, back then, about 8 times as expensive as your phone) can't run shit anymore Feb 15 16:45:38 nid0, it's called inflation in the technology market Feb 15 16:45:40 av500: that's too shortsighted Feb 15 16:45:45 arjan_: Ack. Feb 15 16:45:53 av500: there is economic value in having a large installed base for an OS Feb 15 16:45:55 no, thats the usual commercial product cycle Feb 15 16:46:03 and existing hw is a way to build that installed base quickly Feb 15 16:46:14 That's the advantage of android: big platform, big userbase. Feb 15 16:46:19 av500: But they start to be services companies now too. Feb 15 16:46:23 arjan_: Nxxx does not count as that, too few in the field Feb 15 16:46:24 nid0, note that your current phone is probably 200 times faster as that desktop computer that was 8 times as expensive for me Feb 15 16:46:35 av500: And for that you need to have a large install base. Feb 15 16:46:38 nid0, and that desktop computer was about the size of a human being Feb 15 16:46:50 Well, a small human being. ok Feb 15 16:46:52 IMHO Nokia isn't in the position to upset the early adopters willing to go the linux way _if_ porting is easy Feb 15 16:46:54 yes, so the 1st true commercial phome running meego will be the baseline Feb 15 16:47:03 not the N900 Feb 15 16:47:11 nid0, welcome to the technology and IT sector Feb 15 16:47:15 why is it the first time i'm hearing that maemo and moblin are merging into meego? Feb 15 16:47:44 mobile years run faster than desktop years Feb 15 16:47:46 uhsf: because it got announced a few hours ago ? Feb 15 16:47:51 nid0, besides, nobody is going stop you from porting meego to a n900 Feb 15 16:47:58 ofc it is, but the basic fact of business remains that it's easier to keep a happy customer than get a new one, nokia keeps n900 users happy with the ability to load up the next software release (especially as the lifecycle of each version is so quick) thats a whole userbase of n900 users thatll be happy with their phone, the platform, and the futureproofing it offers, and go buy another nokia next time Feb 15 16:48:08 http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2359259,00.asp Feb 15 16:48:15 isn't moblin an intel thing? isn't it bad news for arm devices? Feb 15 16:48:16 we know. Feb 15 16:48:32 intel is involved, yes. Feb 15 16:48:35 nid0, the n900 customers that nokia wants to keep happy aren't the kind that want to run meego on a n900. They are the kind that just don't give a shit about that stuff Feb 15 16:48:37 nid0: nokias track record on this front is not nearly that nice Feb 15 16:48:43 no - not if it's simply recompiled. Feb 15 16:48:53 nid0, and that way of putting is even a light form of how few they care Feb 15 16:48:56 pvanhoof: Developers are important. Feb 15 16:49:06 * solarion would love to run fremantle on his n810, for instance Feb 15 16:49:08 scr4ve, and developers can easily port their apps to meego Feb 15 16:49:10 scr4ve, so they are covered Feb 15 16:49:16 exactly, it's not, and i'd happily put exactly that down to a reason why theyve been steadily losing ground to other platforms Feb 15 16:49:19 and devs flock to cool platforms Feb 15 16:49:25 scr4, maybe you should cite Ballmer?-) Feb 15 16:49:27 av500, yup Feb 15 16:49:46 pvanhoof: missed you at fosdem, though you met mbonnin I think ;) Feb 15 16:49:58 scr4ve, in fact, I hardly think there's any developer out there left, who's really interested in Maemo development, who didn't get a free phone from Nokia in Amsterdam Feb 15 16:50:13 pvanhoof: Ouch. Feb 15 16:50:14 av500, oh to bad, next conference is guadec :) Feb 15 16:50:39 When's that? Feb 15 16:50:43 scr4ve, if you didn't get one, make sure that your app is cool and talk to the right people Feb 15 16:50:44 see in this case i can see the value in moving to meego, if it pans out it'll be a platform that runs on a lot of hardware (read easily ported) which isn't really the case with M5, so assuming the drivers are there you could well see a n810 port of it Feb 15 16:51:05 pvanhoof, i doubt that... im interested in it... but mostly im interested in nokia not F#$king the people who are thier core community ... the ones who bought an n900 .... myself included Feb 15 16:51:15 pvanhoof: A free phone is not the point for me. Feb 15 16:51:23 600 bucks isn't that much. Feb 15 16:51:30 it isn't? Feb 15 16:51:31 damn Feb 15 16:51:39 scr4ve: no? Feb 15 16:51:44 that's food for a whole 2 months for me right there Feb 15 16:52:00 dudes... 600 is 12 hours of work-. Feb 15 16:52:09 etamme, and how are they fscking their core developer community then? All the libraries that you might have used in fremantle will be available in community form or official (either way, they are available and maintained) Feb 15 16:52:11 scr4ve: not for everyone... Feb 15 16:52:27 etamme, so tell me, how is it that they are fscking core developer community? Feb 15 16:52:33 andres: yup - this was intended as a response to pvanhoof. Feb 15 16:52:34 pvanhoof, im just saying... they f#$cked their n7xx and n8xx customers Feb 15 16:52:41 scr4ve: 600 bucks is half a months worth of student grant ;) Feb 15 16:52:49 etamme: omap2? be serious Feb 15 16:52:54 etamme, or wait, you want to say that you want to be pampered by them so that they do everything for you? So take the support out of community and into official? Feb 15 16:53:12 etamme, how did they? you can still port the new stuff to those devices Feb 15 16:53:13 i dont have any problems with buying a N1000, anyway i won't invest my coding skills in the maemo platform if there's android. Feb 15 16:53:22 uhh... no... im saying i dont want them to make a hardware platform obsolete or incompatible in less than a year Feb 15 16:53:24 Doesn't make sense to me so far. Feb 15 16:53:27 etamme, it's just that a lot of the new stuff uses things that the old hardware simply doesn't have or can't cope with Feb 15 16:53:33 and they dont have a good track record Feb 15 16:53:37 etamme: the cycle is 1 year Feb 15 16:53:38 etamme, so that's basically the same as Windows 95 not running on an XT machine Feb 15 16:53:56 etamme, except that nokia does everything in the open, and you CAN actually port it Feb 15 16:53:57 running android on the nexus vs the G1 is like P4 vs 486 Feb 15 16:54:00 merging with Mer in 2011 will go and make the N1000 outdated? Feb 15 16:54:10 etamme, but sure, it wont ever be good enough Feb 15 16:54:14 The N900 is still really buggy, IMHO. Feb 15 16:54:17 pvanhoof: only if you consider the windows95 capable machine bought in 2010 Feb 15 16:54:26 etamme, really, the guys that came before you guys did Wine instead of Whining Feb 15 16:54:50 andres so yes, mobile goes faster than desktop. it's called innovation sprints Feb 15 16:54:51 Going on like this will make people buy android phones and will make developers fade away to donuts and stuff like that. Feb 15 16:55:04 And it's exciting Feb 15 16:55:24 pvanhoof: I dont want to say youre completely wrong, but its also wasting... Feb 15 16:55:26 #meego topic of the day: rpm hell^W^Wnokia tablet upgrade hell Feb 15 16:55:30 how old is this channel seriously? Feb 15 16:55:34 X-Fade: do you deal with meego.com webstuffs? Feb 15 16:55:38 an open OS doesn't mean open drivers... afaik the n900 doesn't have open drivers... and the N8** still is waiting for the open driver for the graphics accelerator... so, no guarantee... (hello all, first post :P) Feb 15 16:55:39 i just went out and bought an n900 2 weeks ago instead of going with a nexus 1 (i had the g1) .... i had an n810, which nokia has pretty much abandon all support for... im just hoping i didnt make the wrong choice with going back to nokia Feb 15 16:55:47 the developers that are lost to android because of stuff like this are the developers the community can afford to lose anyway... Feb 15 16:55:48 solarion: No, maemo.org only. Feb 15 16:55:51 uhsf: this morning there were <40 people here. Feb 15 16:55:56 X-Fade: do you have a line to meego.com? Feb 15 16:56:01 slonopotamus: no Feb 15 16:56:04 solarion: no Feb 15 16:56:05 in favor of getting new, less backward-looking developers Feb 15 16:56:06 DigiDimi: excactly what i've been saying, if you have drivers you can do anything Feb 15 16:56:07 etamme, by the time this stuff is done, your n900 will either be lost or completely obsolete or broken anyway Feb 15 16:56:09 what was the increase in number of people here today was my next question Feb 15 16:56:11 and this announcement was pretty "out of the blue" ... i think ... so it just doesnt give me a lot of confidence Feb 15 16:56:13 hmm, if LF is it, mabye John does thier webstuffs. Feb 15 16:56:26 Not all of the people here are unique. Feb 15 16:56:31 pvanhoof, obsolete possibly .. lost or broken .. i strongly doubt' Feb 15 16:56:34 Well, I've been here since 10 past 11 Feb 15 16:56:38 So .. 6 hours Feb 15 16:56:46 N900 doesn't get obsolete that fast Feb 15 16:56:50 etamme, fine, if it wont be broken, you'll have a nice chunk of hardware to experiment on for porting purposes Feb 15 16:56:54 etamme, sounds great Feb 15 16:56:55 so yes, anybody (capable of) will be able to port meego to the n900 as long as they release the drivers. Feb 15 16:56:56 * N900evil is not unique. Feb 15 16:56:56 uhsf: 11:30, announcement time Feb 15 16:56:57 :P Feb 15 16:56:59 the hardware is powerful, so it can do stuff n810 can't Feb 15 16:57:04 Stskeeps: link? Feb 15 16:57:23 etamme, perhaps implement guitar hero on your n900 , and buy a meego for real phone usage Feb 15 16:57:40 solarion: for the channel stuff? i was first guy in here :P Feb 15 16:57:42 At the time where I had time to seriously play with something like a n900 I did not have the money to buy such a beast every now and then - now I do but dont have the time anymore... Feb 15 16:57:50 Stskeeps: No, you said it was "annoucement time" Feb 15 16:57:55 Stskeeps: is there a webcase for this? Feb 15 16:58:09 pvanhoof, dont be a dick. i think its fair to say nokia has made their customers edgy with all this. And with good reason, they dont have a great track record with the n series support. Feb 15 16:58:12 solarion: it was the announcement on events.nokia.com/mwc and i got tipped off to meego.com :) Feb 15 16:58:18 andres: amen to that. Feb 15 16:58:18 which listed #meego, i joined Feb 15 16:58:20 noone here Feb 15 16:58:32 etamme: the customers? like my dad? nope. The few meamo devs, maybe Feb 15 16:58:35 I am amused by the ltitle people on meego.com. If you invert color, they switch color schemes with each other. :) Feb 15 16:58:38 etamme, I think the dick here is you. Nokia is doing everything they have to to support even all of your use-cases Feb 15 16:58:40 is meego-dev public? I'm filling the gmane form. Feb 15 16:58:43 Stskeeps: probably on quakenet. Feb 15 16:58:48 etamme, but for you it's just never good enough Feb 15 16:58:52 av500, yes im talking maemo Feb 15 16:59:03 etamme, really, in the nineties the kids didn't whine. They coded and coped Feb 15 16:59:12 pvanhoof, you must be projecting.... Feb 15 16:59:17 frickin' Flash Feb 15 16:59:19 yes, so the few meamo devs might be upset, I agree Feb 15 16:59:26 pvanhoof: you must've grown up in a different 90's than me Feb 15 16:59:27 etamme, just code Feb 15 16:59:28 pvanhoof, im building qt creator on my gentoo box now Feb 15 16:59:37 Synthaxx, well in the 80ties then :) Feb 15 16:59:45 more like it ;) Feb 15 16:59:47 early nineties, fine. After Win95 it got worse, yes Feb 15 16:59:50 pvanhoof, im fine with change.. .i just dont want the platform to be abandon in some wacky corportate deal Feb 15 16:59:52 Much worse Feb 15 16:59:55 in my 90's we didn't have internet to whine on Feb 15 17:00:00 villemv, :) Feb 15 17:00:03 catch22: gnash doens't work well enough, and adobe's plugin crashes firefox Feb 15 17:00:05 (the early part) Feb 15 17:00:08 i think you are all insane or brainwashed by needing always the latest smartphone thing, it's really stupid. i'm very happy with my n900 and maemo as it is and i couldn't care less if it stayed that way it's very usable and i could use it as it is for years without buying into the next sheep crowd hype Feb 15 17:00:08 die, flash, die Feb 15 17:00:13 etamme, to be honest is this deal really awesome for opensource Feb 15 17:00:29 pvanhoof: agreed. A big complaint is that there's too much fragmentation Feb 15 17:00:35 etamme, and to have a guy at management at nokia say things like: We want to work upstream, that's where the work is done, opensource is great, etc Feb 15 17:00:37 * florian agrees with pvanhoof Feb 15 17:00:40 etamme, sorry, but I don't know what more you can wont Feb 15 17:00:42 s/wont/want Feb 15 17:00:54 pvanhoof, im not against it ... at all .. im all about opening up. Feb 15 17:01:19 It's pretty damn great Feb 15 17:01:24 +1 Feb 15 17:01:24 pvanhoof, im just skeptical about what nokia is going to do moving forward that is all. and really its largely b/c there is very little information about all this stuff Feb 15 17:01:30 uhsf: on a personal level I'm mainly interested in what I shall replace my Neo FreeRunner with in a year or two :) Feb 15 17:01:40 just the meego site .. which.. has virtually nothing except some corporate logos Feb 15 17:01:51 etamme: it's very early Feb 15 17:02:00 etamme, give the management guys a break, they have just made this high level deal and you expect a total solution on a plate already Feb 15 17:02:07 are we at T+6hrs now Feb 15 17:02:07 all i really care about atm is , will this deal be good or bad for me as a n900 owner Feb 15 17:02:15 solarion, right.. i think it would have been better if they held off till they had more info to give the community .. i dunno Feb 15 17:02:17 etamme: combining two large corporations probably takes the square of the amount of time it takes for a single large corporation, which is itself a long time. :) Feb 15 17:02:25 etamme: "release early, release often" Feb 15 17:02:30 dvoid_: As a N900 user, nothing changes really. Feb 15 17:02:44 pvanhoof, no i just think they should have thought about how much the press release might "stir up" the maemo community Feb 15 17:02:49 X-Fade: what about as an n810 user that wants an n900? :) Feb 15 17:02:50 angry birds suddonly won't lose sound Feb 15 17:02:51 http://meegohome.com/ heh Feb 15 17:03:08 I think the real problem here is that out of both platforms, the only one with an actual product (n900) have been told not 2 months ago that maemo would be the thing and ALLREADY it's being changed. I can understand owners are getting edgy about it seeing Nokia's track record with upgrades (see the entire n-series) Feb 15 17:03:16 at least .. with virtually no other info than "maemo is now gonne be meego! it'l be great!" Feb 15 17:03:42 etamme, stop wanting to be pampered Feb 15 17:03:46 just code Feb 15 17:03:47 Synthaxx: think of this like "Intel joins Maemo effort", w/ a different name Feb 15 17:03:47 the fact that MeeGo website uses a big n900 on it's front page is such a cheap bastard asshole move Feb 15 17:03:48 Synthaxx: you mean my ~3yr old getting a firmware upgrade this january? ;-) Feb 15 17:03:52 Synthaxx, thats pretty much it exatcly Feb 15 17:04:03 i had the n810 .. and then maemo 5 Feb 15 17:04:08 ... and i just got my n900 Feb 15 17:04:15 and now its like "oh well .. we changed our minds" Feb 15 17:04:18 so .. its unsettling Feb 15 17:04:25 good, so you have qt from a community package. Port your app to use that Feb 15 17:04:32 it'll be quite easy afterward to bring it on harmattan Feb 15 17:04:35 and i think that nokia should have thought about that before they made an annoucement without much detail Feb 15 17:04:45 Which will be the first meego thing, if Ari is right Feb 15 17:04:56 Mirv: i replaced my neo freerunner with a nokia n900 and i know there is no way a smartphone will constitute as big as a leap in innovation as the n900 Feb 15 17:05:02 pvanhoof: dui is out in extras-devel too. So you can even create a Maemo 6 ui already :) Feb 15 17:05:03 If you don't have an app, start one. Feb 15 17:05:15 i have no problem with the technical bits .. qt, rpm etc. i dont care... i just dont want my "investment" in the platform to be for nothing Feb 15 17:05:19 X-Fade, right, can this be packaged for fremantle devices? :) Feb 15 17:05:28 pvanhoof: It is. Feb 15 17:05:39 X-Fade, cool. so etamme there you go Feb 15 17:05:43 pvanhoof: It runs on my N900 nicely. Check fremantle extras-devel. Feb 15 17:05:49 awesome Feb 15 17:05:49 etamme: this will only improve the investment as we get better tech and mindshare working for in Feb 15 17:05:59 X-Fade, I don't know what these people are whining about then :) Feb 15 17:05:59 pvanhoof: apt-get install dui-demos Feb 15 17:06:02 can i make xchat or some other irc client merge channels so i can see maemo meego stuff combined Feb 15 17:06:06 etamme: give it a bit time to work out Feb 15 17:06:12 uhsf: ...and i know there is no way a smartphone will constitute as big as a leap in innovation as the n900 Feb 15 17:06:14 lcuk: afaik not Feb 15 17:06:17 villemv, thats totally cool ... i just wish nokia was clearer on their investment in the n900 platform when they made this annoincement Feb 15 17:06:17 uhsf: u serious? Feb 15 17:06:18 quassel supports that Feb 15 17:06:21 just wondering what the device in the picture on http://meego.com/ is... Feb 15 17:06:30 lbt: n900 likely Feb 15 17:06:34 lbt: a .... phone? Feb 15 17:06:43 av500: of course. impossible in the next few years at least Feb 15 17:06:47 that's an n900 yeah Feb 15 17:06:47 n900 support is not "MVC-sexy" stuff Feb 15 17:07:00 W Feb 15 17:07:22 I just hope that there will be a proper vm for emulating a device this time. Feb 15 17:07:35 And, most of all, that the development environment will not be made for Deb/Ubuntu-only Feb 15 17:07:49 av500: just consider other offers at the time n900 was released. no other smartphone ever had such an advantage on it's competitors Feb 15 17:07:53 th0br0: Will probably be fedora only ;) Feb 15 17:07:58 And the other thing is, the people who've bought into the n900 and maemo have basically been sold a promise. You can say a lot about the Maemo 5 platform, but really finished it is not. Feb 15 17:08:07 X-Fade: is that a joke or are you serious? :D Feb 15 17:08:10 * lcuk ponders on device dev Feb 15 17:08:14 well, given that it'll be .rpm based ... Feb 15 17:08:24 th0br0: Not wanting to start another deb rpm debate ;0 Feb 15 17:08:24 * lbt slaps lcuk Feb 15 17:08:34 get a grip man! Feb 15 17:08:35 why Feb 15 17:08:41 on positive note, RPM complies with the LSB specs Feb 15 17:08:41 its perfectly natural to consider on maemo Feb 15 17:08:42 lcuk: OBS on device Feb 15 17:08:47 X-Fade: no, i like rpm, i was just wondering whether you meant it for real or not. Feb 15 17:09:02 uhsf: the n900 had the advantage of unfinished SW? Feb 15 17:09:10 Synthaxx: I have it on pretty good authority that there will be a Maemo 6 device this year Feb 15 17:09:12 heh Feb 15 17:09:14 X-Fade, thanks for pointing that out. I tried to get DUI running from the sources to no avail Feb 15 17:09:14 compared to 3gs and e.g. droid... Feb 15 17:09:15 lcuk: I'm going to port an OBS worker to the device one day Feb 15 17:09:16 which doesn't mean n900, means new device Feb 15 17:09:21 th0br0: I was kidding, but as the scratchbox uses debian natively something needs to change then. Feb 15 17:09:24 jefferai: leaving the current owners to do....? Feb 15 17:09:29 Yeah. Feb 15 17:09:35 Synthaxx: good question, but hopefully get an upgrade to Maemo 6 on n900 Feb 15 17:09:42 They should do sth similar to what the Android guys did --> emulate a device with qemu Feb 15 17:09:43 av500: n900 sofware is just perfect for me. a true linux fan. Feb 15 17:09:44 join #ofono Feb 15 17:09:45 mikhas: Binaries work at least. Feb 15 17:09:56 uhsf: be happy then :) Feb 15 17:09:57 (sorry) Feb 15 17:09:57 jefferai: here's hoping Feb 15 17:10:03 yeah, no joke Feb 15 17:10:17 th0br0: Emulating a n800 with qemu has been done already. Feb 15 17:10:17 av500: my n900 was not functionnal when i received it. i had to flash the firmware to fix it Feb 15 17:10:23 X-Fade: a n900? Feb 15 17:10:26 +what about Feb 15 17:10:31 I still want a frickin' slate device Feb 15 17:10:34 uhsf: yes, I know the stories, I have seen n900s.... Feb 15 17:10:37 8x11" with aRM processor Feb 15 17:10:44 iPad? Feb 15 17:10:45 av500: and even after that i'm saying the n900 is the best phone ever so that's sayin' Feb 15 17:10:45 some Flash storage or something Feb 15 17:10:47 th0br0: Haven't seen an N900 being emulated, no. Feb 15 17:10:50 javispedro: iPad without the iOS Feb 15 17:10:56 or the iCuffs Feb 15 17:11:17 javispedro: basically, what was coming out around the turn of the millenium before MSFT decided to go on their "tablet PC" crusade Feb 15 17:11:26 but, you know, with modern hardware. :) Feb 15 17:11:43 th0br0: But I guess you would need to check omap3 support in qemu. Feb 15 17:11:58 av500: you might thing i'm crazy saying this but come back in a few years and tell me what other phone will have improved the smartphone platform as much as the n900. there will be none other. Feb 15 17:12:07 * av500 chokes Feb 15 17:12:28 heh Feb 15 17:12:54 I'd say after iphone AND android, the N900 was straightforward Feb 15 17:12:59 and rather late.... Feb 15 17:13:10 it's what openmoko should've been Feb 15 17:13:18 uhsf: please send me an n900 so taht I can compare. :) Feb 15 17:13:19 Synthaxx: and nearly was. Feb 15 17:13:19 * av500 chokes again Feb 15 17:13:32 Synthaxx: well, OM had no HW backer.... Feb 15 17:13:33 av500: I think there are pill for that now Feb 15 17:13:38 ok av500 doens't have a clue about open source and software ethics. end of discussion for me Feb 15 17:13:44 Synthaxx: Done right - xmas 2008 could have had a working OM phone. But... Feb 15 17:13:56 they switched to Qt then merged with Intel? Feb 15 17:13:58 uhsf: if you were meaning "Free phone" then you should have said so Feb 15 17:14:03 javispedro: lol! Feb 15 17:14:06 uhsf: you define the worth of your phone with SW ethics? yes, we have no grounds to discuss.... Feb 15 17:14:07 uhsf: or "Free Software" Feb 15 17:14:48 SpeedEvil: i agree. Feb 15 17:15:06 "Use of GNU (L)GPL version 2.x is encouraged and currently use of GNU (L)GPL version 3 is discouraged."... of course Feb 15 17:15:09 uhsf: I know a lot about GPL and SW ethics, but that alone does not help Nokia against apple and android Feb 15 17:15:12 http://meego.com/about/licensing-policy Feb 15 17:15:18 lbt: lmao Feb 15 17:15:34 uhsf: and I would love Nokia to succeed with a lof of FOSS... Feb 15 17:15:48 lbt: it's not forbidden, merely discouraged Feb 15 17:15:51 i don't want them to "win" i want them all to compete with eachother so i can sit back and get the best i can out of each of 'em Feb 15 17:15:51 you can still do what you want. :) Feb 15 17:16:07 und trust me, they will have no issue to seed the same amount of N1000 to the devs... Feb 15 17:16:09 the other day I found a philips 900€ish TV set with BUILTIN wifi but with the kernel DRM'd and protected _without_ wi-fi stack and drivers. Feb 15 17:16:17 solarion: atm just absorbing and pointing out snippets Feb 15 17:16:22 since that day I'm a big fan of GPL3 Feb 15 17:16:27 the licenses of all API components and also selected technology framework components must enable linking of proprietary components or plugins. Feb 15 17:16:27 now, the big question Feb 15 17:16:27 lbt: no worries Feb 15 17:16:32 coreutils/bash/dash or busybox? Feb 15 17:16:32 apple and android do not even exist to me. i couldn't care less about their market share because i know for sure they're all sheeps and idiots Feb 15 17:16:35 lbt: it actually seems kinda sane to me Feb 15 17:16:39 <|R> javispedro: GPLv3 all the way :) Feb 15 17:16:43 Stskeeps: csh Feb 15 17:16:47 lbt: csh? Feb 15 17:16:48 rebel!! Feb 15 17:16:48 zsh! Feb 15 17:16:49 are you kidding me Feb 15 17:16:55 yes Feb 15 17:16:58 Stskeeps: bash and coreutils Feb 15 17:16:59 Microsoft PowerShell! Feb 15 17:17:04 dash Feb 15 17:17:08 busybox is nice for really small embedded Feb 15 17:17:11 * solarion is a fan of AGPLv3 Feb 15 17:17:16 arjan_: btw, you are involved with meego? Feb 15 17:17:16 but once you get a full system... it's too limiting Feb 15 17:17:21 hehe Feb 15 17:17:21 and explicit patent wording FTW. :) Feb 15 17:17:22 Stecchino: yes I'm one of the architects Feb 15 17:17:36 Stecchino: (I work for Intel, used to be a Moblin architect) Feb 15 17:17:43 too many people for tab completion :) Feb 15 17:17:50 arjan_: do you have contact with the web monkeys? Feb 15 17:17:52 arjan_: cool - nice to meet you :) i'm maemo.org distmaster and am involved with Mer Feb 15 17:17:54 <|R> solarion: ah yes agreed, a new needed addition of the v3 revision :) Feb 15 17:17:57 why is gpl3 discouraged? Feb 15 17:18:00 lcuk: D R M Feb 15 17:18:06 <|R> lcuk: DRM Feb 15 17:18:07 lcuk: it's discouraged from the core Feb 15 17:18:13 but you can do gplv3 apps all you want Feb 15 17:18:20 in fact, moblin has a lot of gplv3 in it already Feb 15 17:18:30 solarion: if I need to; they're very busy today Feb 15 17:18:37 lcuk, because gplv3 prevents tivoization. Feb 15 17:18:49 arjan_: could you perhaps put a bug in their ear about HTML5/ogg video instead of flash? :) Feb 15 17:18:51 i know that Feb 15 17:18:52 (and I suspect maemo has lots of gplv3 as well, just not in the core part) Feb 15 17:19:01 (low-priority probably, but it'd make some of our lives suck less) Feb 15 17:19:06 arjan_: maemo is actually pure gplv2, no v3 Feb 15 17:19:13 lcuk, that's why it is discouraged by hw manufacturer :) Feb 15 17:19:19 Stskeeps: gplv2 or gplv2+? Feb 15 17:19:31 Stskeeps: they kept the older gcc? that must suck for performance Feb 15 17:19:43 arjan_: gcc4.2 Feb 15 17:19:50 solarion: there's a plus? :P Feb 15 17:19:52 yeah with 4.2 you give up about 20% or so Feb 15 17:19:54 sucks Feb 15 17:19:56 Stskeeps: yes. "or later" Feb 15 17:19:59 Stskeeps: 'or later' Feb 15 17:20:06 w00t: no "or later" Feb 15 17:20:11 (afaik) Feb 15 17:20:12 Stskeeps: :( Feb 15 17:20:34 arjan_: i can only hope Meego helps to reset the platform, been pushing for these kind of things for over a year in the Mer project Feb 15 17:20:41 arjan_: and Meego is really many of my hopes come true :) Feb 15 17:20:58 <|R> :) Feb 15 17:21:05 Stskeeps: is Mer pretty straightforward to install? Feb 15 17:21:18 solarion: fairly, but we're not that impressive Feb 15 17:21:18 solarion: on what device? Feb 15 17:21:19 yes Feb 15 17:21:23 (depending on device) Feb 15 17:21:25 solarion: but not on n900 Feb 15 17:21:46 I'm really not good at the early replies today Feb 15 17:21:56 * w00t gets back in his box Feb 15 17:22:05 lbt: n810 Feb 15 17:22:07 solarion: N800, N810, SmartQ5/7, O2 Joggler, N900 Feb 15 17:22:08 ah Feb 15 17:22:18 one of the easiest Feb 15 17:22:19 * solarion doesn't have an n900, and probably wouldn't want to lose the phone capability Feb 15 17:22:22 wewt Feb 15 17:22:29 is it pretty full-featured and compatible? Feb 15 17:22:35 one click install :) Feb 15 17:22:35 nop Feb 15 17:22:37 * gladiac gets a beer and watches the packaging wars Feb 15 17:22:45 solarion: you get X Feb 15 17:22:48 we tried to reconstruct Maemo in order to make it more like, well, now it looks like more like Meego principles ;) Feb 15 17:22:50 was there a reason for RPM over DEB? Feb 15 17:22:59 microlith: politics Feb 15 17:23:08 so no Feb 15 17:23:19 microlith: moblin is rpm based Feb 15 17:23:21 LSB might be part of the reason, as I think was pointed out on some mailing list or other Feb 15 17:23:27 seems so. Feb 15 17:23:27 * w00t is just not keeping up with things today Feb 15 17:23:31 * lbt considers #meego-rpm-vs-deb Feb 15 17:23:35 microlith: what do you want to hear? Feb 15 17:23:46 w00t: it's not been mentioned here yet, but I read the same mailing list post seems :) Feb 15 17:23:48 what benefits/losses there are from switching Feb 15 17:23:50 * om26er joins Feb 15 17:23:51 or a wiki page Feb 15 17:23:56 Seriously, why did you paint that bike shed orange? ;) Feb 15 17:24:21 lbt: I find it so stirring that people can be so passionate about package management, it really warms my heart! Feb 15 17:24:29 yeah Feb 15 17:24:34 microlith: rpm spec sucks but deb sucks more? Feb 15 17:24:36 esp since packaging is mostly the same between them Feb 15 17:24:46 we have the OBS Feb 15 17:24:47 All apps would run on Meego, so they all will be converted to rpm then? Feb 15 17:24:55 As long as dependencies are handled well it is all the same. Feb 15 17:24:55 kristof78: yes Feb 15 17:24:57 if you look at what people actually use, rpm and dpkg formats are mostly equivalent Feb 15 17:24:58 w00t, you misdiagnose passion with rabies Feb 15 17:25:25 hmm "MeeGo compatibility test" Feb 15 17:25:40 MeeGo Upgrade Compatibility Test Wizard Feb 15 17:25:53 arjan_, I have found dpkg to be much more faster that rpm Feb 15 17:25:54 Wise installer system, installshield, or Visual basic Package and deployment wizard? Feb 15 17:26:05 om26er: as format? or as tool Feb 15 17:26:18 om26er: I frequently build chroots and rpm *toasts* apt/dpkg Feb 15 17:26:19 arjan_, for sure as format Feb 15 17:26:25 just fyi Feb 15 17:26:41 om26er: there is almost no difference; they're basically both a wrapper with some metadata and then some form of tarbal Feb 15 17:26:41 * javispedro is installing opensuse atm Feb 15 17:27:12 javispedro: why? Feb 15 17:27:20 everyone tried dui-demos already? Feb 15 17:27:29 he's likes pain Feb 15 17:27:34 meeg: Sure. Feb 15 17:27:34 lbt: you know, it's been ages since I last touched zypper Feb 15 17:27:36 he* Feb 15 17:27:38 ugh Feb 15 17:27:39 ah Feb 15 17:27:58 from extras-devel.. this got lost in the meego news Feb 15 17:28:20 meeg: It is a nice start, has some bad bugs though. Feb 15 17:28:38 satsolver on maemo would be interesting Feb 15 17:28:57 gladiac - yes Feb 15 17:29:33 will be possible with the switch to rpm Feb 15 17:30:09 Guest61435: yes, maybe zypper is suitable too Feb 15 17:30:10 so when do we get the meego swag, tshirts and lanyards? :P Feb 15 17:30:19 meego karma! Feb 15 17:30:38 Stskeeps: you didn't get any? Feb 15 17:30:39 * gladiac has a adding just come along Feb 15 17:30:42 edding Feb 15 17:30:43 lbt: not yet :/ Feb 15 17:30:48 lbt: i proudly run around with my maemo.org one Feb 15 17:30:52 * lbt sends Stskeeps the pdf Feb 15 17:30:53 even the orange FiF one Feb 15 17:30:53 :P Feb 15 17:31:04 Heh, the FiF one rocks :) Feb 15 17:31:08 meego summit! Feb 15 17:31:12 my t-shirt is jammed in the printer now :( Feb 15 17:31:16 take the maemo shirt and a sharpy Feb 15 17:31:21 opensource shirt ftw Feb 15 17:31:22 lol Feb 15 17:31:28 "meego devs do it with rpm" shirts Feb 15 17:31:30 where is there an sdk image, i want to write a kernel module Feb 15 17:31:36 "Fixed in MeeGo" Feb 15 17:31:40 heh Feb 15 17:31:42 (never done so before, but now seems a good time to start) Feb 15 17:31:42 lol Feb 15 17:31:46 "I was there when Maemo died Feb 15 17:31:47 " Feb 15 17:31:47 javispedro: oh dear god @ meego summit Feb 15 17:32:02 meego summit too Feb 15 17:32:04 meego summit 2 Feb 15 17:32:10 javispedro: "meegoto in kyoto!" Feb 15 17:32:16 ohyoto! Feb 15 17:32:18 meego hard Feb 15 17:32:21 clever marketing guys will make that a "mee-go 2 summit" Feb 15 17:32:25 meego to summit! Feb 15 17:32:28 yeah Feb 15 17:32:32 methinks meego is a bored marketing guy's dream Feb 15 17:32:51 MeeGone to Bangalore Feb 15 17:32:51 meeto Feb 15 17:32:52 i think he was upto his eyeballs in cocaine, but to each his own Feb 15 17:33:00 Stskeeps: the meego/mega wordplay is nice. It was my first though after reading the name. Behold the meeGoPad! Feb 15 17:33:24 What if we have 3 devices? Are they the 3 a meego s? Feb 15 17:33:38 It's a me mario! Feb 15 17:33:39 groan Feb 15 17:33:40 javispedro: meegoporn! Feb 15 17:33:47 if MeeGo uses rpm i will be laughing so hard at you with all my debs Feb 15 17:33:59 if ? Feb 15 17:34:12 Resurrect autopackage! Feb 15 17:34:13 it'll be the first rpm machine in my house that's for sure Feb 15 17:34:22 Synthaxx: yeah Feb 15 17:34:29 actually I'm not too bothered about pkgin Feb 15 17:34:40 or that i personally interacted with Feb 15 17:34:45 "MeeGo: More RPMs than a Yugo!" Feb 15 17:34:46 but the real thing is the config files and OS support scripts Feb 15 17:35:08 but I guess much of that is in huge flux - eg nw setup etc Feb 15 17:35:29 arjan_: you might know, what plans regarding ARM version is planned? Feb 15 17:35:56 I wonder how the range of devices will feel - phone->tablet->netbook/laptop->desktop Feb 15 17:35:56 i dunno, there's something satisfying about ssh'ing into your phone and doing and apt-get update/upgrade Feb 15 17:36:08 lbt: yes - packaging is one part, needed - but not the only part of the system Feb 15 17:36:13 arjan_: cos Maemo SDK targets >= ARMv7 atm. Feb 15 17:36:17 zyppex dpkg-upgrade Feb 15 17:36:21 Synthaxx: that's just as doable using yum or similar Feb 15 17:36:38 the last time i did that with yum, the fire brigade was needed Feb 15 17:36:46 Guest61435: we'll need to do a lot of learning in the pkging about how to achieve config changes etc Feb 15 17:36:48 haunts me to this day Feb 15 17:36:55 Stskeeps: by and large it depends on how much the people who care about arm contribute Feb 15 17:36:56 Synthaxx: when was that ? Feb 15 17:36:57 since then, no more RPM's for me Feb 15 17:37:04 2 years ago Feb 15 17:37:05 Synthaxx: yeah - I just apt-get upgraded a machine Feb 15 17:37:05 Stecchino: I suspect it'll be mostly the same as maemo Feb 15 17:37:12 took 3 days Feb 15 17:37:19 luckily the machine's been upgraded to debian Feb 15 17:37:21 nokia cares about arm, so no prob Feb 15 17:37:22 arjan_: good Feb 15 17:37:23 it's not perfect Feb 15 17:37:47 there is no "one arm", there is many variants Feb 15 17:38:00 yup, left AND right ;) Feb 15 17:38:01 arjan_: is there any reason you keep calling Stskeeps Stecchino ? Feb 15 17:38:03 which ones are supported depends on who's there to help, the maemo normal one will be there Feb 15 17:38:05 Synthaxx: try zypper - it did perform as apt lately Feb 15 17:38:10 have there been -any- shipping devices that ran/run Moblin? Feb 15 17:38:17 ARM varies from 20K RAM and 100K ROM up Feb 15 17:38:17 lbt: probably bad tab completion :) Feb 15 17:38:23 Guest61435: i have no need to because i don't run any machine with it ;) Feb 15 17:38:25 microlith: dell/samsung/msi netbooks Feb 15 17:38:37 I know you're too polite to say ;) Feb 15 17:39:13 but i guess OBS will be the wonder bullet to help these issues Feb 15 17:39:16 * lbt goes back to setting up the MeeGo build system... Feb 15 17:39:22 Synthaxx: yes - but if you don't try it, you can't compare, right ? Feb 15 17:39:48 no, that one dependency hell will last me a lifetime ;) Feb 15 17:40:12 lbt, dont drag your feet.. the name has been known for hours already Feb 15 17:40:30 we set it up over the weekend actually :) Feb 15 17:40:30 meanwhile i DO know i've never had that problem with the 10+ machines/servers under my command running aptitude Feb 15 17:40:54 * SpeedEvil ponders http://www.meegocrazy.com/ Feb 15 17:41:23 Synthaxx: so do the zypper ppl - anyways lets see Feb 15 17:41:24 remember "allaboutmeego" etc Feb 15 17:41:33 but whatever our differences, preferences, or dislikes, at least we can all point and laugh at: http://gizmodo.com/5472033/is-apple-banning-iphone-hackers Feb 15 17:41:34 if you never had dependency hell with .deb's.. try adding a ubuntu repo to a xandros box Feb 15 17:41:48 arjan_: lol, you did that? :D Feb 15 17:41:53 hehe Feb 15 17:41:59 many eee users did Feb 15 17:42:01 Synthaxx: hehe, good point :-) Feb 15 17:42:48 i just wiped the standard OS on my 901 and installed ubuntu ;) Feb 15 17:42:51 * solarion installed from scratch on the 701 and 901 Feb 15 17:43:20 arjan_: Never ever use Xandros. Feb 15 17:43:45 Ubuntu repositories work fine on Debian boxes and the other way around, at least in most cases. Feb 15 17:43:52 have to get meego on that eee now Feb 15 17:44:39 meeego ;) Feb 15 17:44:40 juliank: i have a frankenstein like chroot running on my NAS that has ubuntu and debian debs aswel Feb 15 17:44:55 one reason to have gtk btw - chrome and ff Feb 15 17:44:56 runs like a charm, although it really shouldn't ;) Feb 15 17:44:58 meego and get some dinner. Feb 15 17:45:09 meego really invites plush toys Feb 15 17:45:35 X-Fade: heh Feb 15 17:45:43 meeg: Nokia could also just sponsor a Chrome port to Qt, like they did for Firefox. Feb 15 17:46:06 i heard v8 is x86 only still Feb 15 17:46:08 juliank: only if they're willing to put the proper hooks into chrome for adblock Feb 15 17:46:42 meeg: don't bet on that Feb 15 17:46:44 meeg: V8 is x86, x86-64 and arm. They use it in Android Feb 15 17:46:56 Chrome now has adblock Feb 15 17:46:57 oh, great Feb 15 17:47:06 dirk_gone: iirc, it's a fake, CSS based adblock Feb 15 17:47:16 morning dirkhh :) Feb 15 17:47:21 I've been trying to use chrome for a while Feb 15 17:47:27 adblock is "ok-ish" Feb 15 17:47:31 dirk_gone: yes, but their plugin arch doesn't allow it to not actually load the ads, it just hides them Feb 15 17:47:40 the fact that it doesn't work on two dozen sites that I need... that's less encouraging Feb 15 17:47:43 making it useless for lowbandwidth browsing Feb 15 17:47:45 dirkhh, now that you are here... Feb 15 17:47:46 * E-WolfShade jumps to attention Feb 15 17:47:51 Someone mention Adblock? Feb 15 17:47:55 is telepathy in meego? Feb 15 17:47:58 yes. Feb 15 17:48:07 I already answered this at 4am :-) Feb 15 17:48:09 telepathy is part of meego (both moblin and maemo use it after all) Feb 15 17:48:28 dirkhh something for faq then Feb 15 17:48:31 dirkhh: The Adblock extensions for Chrome are not yet fully functional Feb 15 17:48:32 is there an actual meego yet? or is the merge going to take some time? Feb 15 17:48:45 dirkhh: Ads elements are hidden, yes of course Feb 15 17:48:49 meeg: wonder why telepathy is important? Feb 15 17:48:55 it;s more a low level building block Feb 15 17:48:59 LaserJock: I read you can consider Maemo6 a Meego. Feb 15 17:49:03 will add to FAQ Feb 15 17:49:04 dirkhh: But the problem is, because of how Chrome is set up, the content is downloaded first then hidden Feb 15 17:49:09 well let's see, it was anounced this morning, so it should be fully installable by about 8-9ish ;) Feb 15 17:49:18 So this is the kind of Adblock that actually slows browsing down Feb 15 17:49:23 ville: Maemo6 compatible.. Feb 15 17:49:28 I'm still not happy about it, especially because some of the arguments for RPM (licensing info [which could easily be done with debian packages as well]) are just not true. Feb 15 17:49:35 E-WolfShade: that's... unfortunate Feb 15 17:49:36 this is what ppl have been asking, some apps want that Feb 15 17:49:56 The Adblock extension for Gecko browsers actually blocks ad content from being downloaded, which speeds up browsing Feb 15 17:50:02 Synthaxx: absolutely... which timezone, bzw? Feb 15 17:50:11 gmt+1 Feb 15 17:50:21 Stskeeps: Ok, just paraphrasing Ari Jaaksi's: "consider Maemo6 already a MeeGo instance" Feb 15 17:50:27 a.k.a. the BEST timezone :D Feb 15 17:50:47 ville: probably some marketing speech since harmattan looks very debian based (go see maemo.gitorious.org) Feb 15 17:50:54 ok, I can promise 8-9ish in GMT+1... I'll get back to you on the date :-) Feb 15 17:50:59 ville: so then what will Moblin be contributing? (I'm know to the mobile thing) Feb 15 17:51:09 dirkhh: you're a doll, thanks :D Feb 15 17:51:36 LaserJock: don't ask me, I just read the anouncement and I'm equally confused. Feb 15 17:51:36 I'm 194cm and 99kg... haven't been called a doll to my face in a while :-) Feb 15 17:51:54 dirkhh: had some sleep? Feb 15 17:52:03 ville: heh, ok Feb 15 17:52:07 that was before a project named MeeGo Feb 15 17:52:09 Moblin will contribute the build infrastructure, large parts of the core OS, etc Feb 15 17:52:09 Stskeeps: Maybe they kill harmattan, and just use MeeGo. Or they will use the MeeGo software, package it as deb, and call it Maemo 6. Feb 15 17:52:11 184cm and 99kg here, and you're welcome doll Feb 15 17:52:13 ;) Feb 15 17:52:18 yes, had 4.5h of sleep. Feb 15 17:52:27 thats enough! :) Feb 15 17:52:29 feel... 'rested'? Feb 15 17:52:35 thanks, av500 Feb 15 17:52:51 did I mention that today is a holiday in the US? Feb 15 17:52:51 aww, and i was about to break out the A/S/L? ... Feb 15 17:52:52 so about those gma500 drivers.... :) Feb 15 17:52:56 * Synthaxx pouts Feb 15 17:53:04 American Sign Language? Feb 15 17:53:08 That's hard over IRC Feb 15 17:53:12 and kind of pointless Feb 15 17:53:37 windows phone 7 looks very crappy Feb 15 17:54:08 uhsf: I agree on that :) Feb 15 17:54:18 everybody in comments compare how locked windows is compared to iphone and android. everybody is so ignorant. maemo is millions times more open than any of these. it's the only device that allows me to do what I really want. n900 is the very ONLY device. Feb 15 17:54:30 dirkhh: For me, it sounds like Moblin with Nokia rewriting the MID UI. Feb 15 17:54:54 since we know telepathy is in, can you tell us what will happen to the PIM middleware? still e-d-s? akonadi? some other NIH? Feb 15 17:55:08 right now it's eds Feb 15 17:55:16 dirkhh: wait your THAT Dirk!? Chief Linux and Open source Technologist Dirk?! Feb 15 17:55:24 * Synthaxx bows Feb 15 17:55:28 but there's a lot of flux everywhere in the ecosystem around PIM middleware Feb 15 17:55:39 people are looking at various other things too there Feb 15 17:55:39 sure Feb 15 17:55:41 wstephenson: Do akonadi even work without a MySQL server now? Feb 15 17:55:43 no idea what we'll do longer term Feb 15 17:55:54 juliank: it's much more than that Feb 15 17:55:55 juliank: it already works with postgresql Feb 15 17:56:02 and sqlite in a limited way Feb 15 17:56:10 yay! Feb 15 17:56:13 Synthaxx: yeah, that's me. Li'lle ol Dirk Feb 15 17:56:17 wstephenson: PostgreSQL is even worse for mobile devices. Feb 15 17:56:19 reg. pgsql Feb 15 17:56:20 an address book and such are all just databases in the end Feb 15 17:56:28 question is how much glue you put on top Feb 15 17:56:28 it's most actively being ported to the virtuoso database used by KDE for semantic data Feb 15 17:56:51 i want pgsql on my phone! Feb 15 17:57:06 pgsql ran fine on p5 Feb 15 17:57:09 i want pgsql to manage my contacts, events, music, etc! Feb 15 17:57:21 it's Linux - you can have any open source database you want Feb 15 17:57:28 juliank: to get proper sqlite support the threading performance of sqlite and the QSQLITE plugin would need a lot of work Feb 15 17:57:30 what will be in the reference build... tough question Feb 15 17:57:40 needs to be lightweight, fast... Feb 15 17:57:43 uhsf: you want emacs-bbdb really ;) Feb 15 17:57:50 wstephenson, but now theres 2 teams who can work on it Feb 15 17:58:06 micro-ldap... Feb 15 17:58:10 plain text xml ftw ;) Feb 15 17:58:16 palmos database Feb 15 17:58:23 plaintext text ftw Feb 15 17:58:40 dirkhh: you missed out "...and powerful" didn't you? Feb 15 17:58:50 plaintext with git to do sync/merging Feb 15 17:59:02 powerful? Feb 15 17:59:11 grep ? Feb 15 17:59:14 not sure that's my main concern on a handset Feb 15 17:59:22 Oracle is pretty powerful Feb 15 17:59:27 so is Informix Feb 15 17:59:29 yeah and it clusters well Feb 15 17:59:32 neither I want on my phone Feb 15 17:59:35 well, powerful enough to do the job Feb 15 17:59:38 even MySQL... Feb 15 17:59:48 wstephenson: yes Feb 15 17:59:52 mysql or postgres used to be HUGE and heavy, when PCs ran at 200 Mhz ;-) Feb 15 18:00:20 why introduce SQL ? Feb 15 18:00:36 * lbt checks what century this is Feb 15 18:00:38 sqlite ;-) Feb 15 18:00:39 Contacts on my N900 is getting slower since i added FB xmpp chat and got all my facebook contacts... Feb 15 18:00:44 lbt: 21st? Feb 15 18:00:57 lbt: right, we want sparql! Feb 15 18:01:01 wstephenson: how many contacts? Feb 15 18:01:14 dirkhh: 449 after merging Feb 15 18:01:47 that shouldn't be slow - 9 step binary search... Feb 15 18:02:10 this is a gtk list you're talking about. Feb 15 18:02:16 With a proper btree it should be way much less... Feb 15 18:02:29 governance: TSG is imad & valtteri or is it a group below them? Feb 15 18:02:37 and that's the powerful part Feb 15 18:02:46 group below them - they are the benevolent dictators :-) Feb 15 18:03:05 k, cos that's not clear from the text Feb 15 18:03:13 * wstephenson was referring to db lookups, not your inner circles Feb 15 18:03:44 and TSG is selected by them or? :) sorry for going into community discussion this early, but these questions are bound to come up :) Feb 15 18:03:52 we didn't have actual platform governance in maemo community, so Feb 15 18:06:36 I'm not the governance expert... Feb 15 18:07:05 :nod: Feb 15 18:07:07 but the way I read this is that the initial TSG is put in place by Valtteri/Imad Feb 15 18:07:26 longer term it will be merit / involvement based Feb 15 18:07:29 :nod: Feb 15 18:07:36 typical LinuxFoundation style Feb 15 18:07:49 a Who's Who for Meego would probably be good to have eventually Feb 15 18:08:48 dirkhh: TSG is what? Feb 15 18:08:52 The Second GeneratioN? :) Feb 15 18:08:57 Maemo: TSG. Feb 15 18:09:03 Technical Steering Group Feb 15 18:09:10 what he said Feb 15 18:09:16 s/he/thiago/ Feb 15 18:09:21 hm. I like my bacronym better Feb 15 18:09:26 I'm a he :-) Feb 15 18:09:34 I noticed Feb 15 18:09:39 just wanted to be more specific Feb 15 18:10:11 German precision :-) Feb 15 18:10:24 so where can I get an "I'm your aMeeGo" t-shirt? :-P Feb 15 18:10:39 Hooray .de! :) Feb 15 18:11:53 i just sussed what the fad conf loot will be at this years summit: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/three_amigos_ver2-770439.jpg Feb 15 18:11:57 andre__: Business opportunity, make some and be the first Feb 15 18:11:59 I want that T-Shirt too! Feb 15 18:12:15 heh Feb 15 18:12:28 lcuk: as long as the holsters are n900 form factor, count me in Feb 15 18:12:29 lcuk: new version of the pimp suit picture? Feb 15 18:12:37 hell yeah! Feb 15 18:12:38 Are there large fora of Moblin community missed off the Community Assets wiki page? Trying to get a handle on how two existing communities might merge, cos I'm fairly confident the code side will be comparatively straightforward Feb 15 18:12:39 * javispedro votes for I'm your N MeeGo t-shirt. Feb 15 18:13:18 Jaffa: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44581 is interesting too Feb 15 18:14:20 * dirkhh just added a couple more of the FAQs from here... telepathy, gtk, clutter... Feb 15 18:14:49 andre__: I have submitted way too many cool t-shirt ideas already Feb 15 18:14:56 branding people don't have enough humor Feb 15 18:14:56 hmm Feb 15 18:15:08 someone needs to highlight this to Maemo Community: http://moblin.org/community/blogs/margie/2010/l10n-and-meego Feb 15 18:15:24 * Stskeeps goes post on TMO Feb 15 18:15:43 dirkhh, gnarf. is there a public place for that? Feb 15 18:15:45 andre__ is not branding person, just a businesman! Feb 15 18:15:56 He will take your wonderful ideas, and the credit Feb 15 18:15:59 Q2 2010 being planned for first release -- that's pretty fast.. Feb 15 18:16:00 Stskeeps: In the community translation thread? Feb 15 18:16:09 Hukka, seems you know me well ;-) Feb 15 18:16:10 quite a lot of people here... i wonder what this maemo qt ui thingy will be? Feb 15 18:16:19 * patres needs a new computer, cant even multitask on this one Feb 15 18:16:23 Jaffa: new post, but yeah Feb 15 18:16:25 Stskeeps: Margie is the person you want to copy on anything L10n related... Feb 15 18:16:30 jabadoo: we're trying to figure out too :-P Feb 15 18:16:39 jabadoo: http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework ? Feb 15 18:16:46 What he said Feb 15 18:16:49 that's the Maemo UI framework Feb 15 18:16:50 dirkhh: yeah, it's her blog i'm pointing out to the maemo people Feb 15 18:16:53 yes Feb 15 18:16:54 andre__: wiki.meego.com Feb 15 18:16:54 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=527821&postcount=1 -> Jaffa Feb 15 18:17:07 but there's also http://qt.gitorious.org/uiemo Feb 15 18:17:16 thiago: That's Symbian Feb 15 18:17:18 hello Feb 15 18:17:32 Hukka: works just fine on my N900 Feb 15 18:17:39 thiago: Sure Feb 15 18:17:45 single-sign on, yay Feb 15 18:17:47 thiago: But it's what used to be called Orbit Feb 15 18:17:52 I know Feb 15 18:17:55 mhm why do they have two qt ui frameworks? Feb 15 18:18:00 thanks Stskeeps Feb 15 18:18:03 * thiago bets on QML Feb 15 18:18:04 jabadoo: That we wonder too... Feb 15 18:18:09 jabadoo: easy, two departments :-P Feb 15 18:18:10 now ui-emo Feb 15 18:18:19 *headshot* Feb 15 18:18:33 jabadoo: Because Symbian and Maemo teams both think they're use cases are special Feb 15 18:18:35 ? Feb 15 18:18:39 dirkhh: our l10n is in it's infancy due to licensing of maemo strings, but it's starting to pick up pace now Feb 15 18:18:47 I'm wondering who to talk to about Bugzilla... Feb 15 18:19:18 andre__: we have no sources ready for consumption, yet, so we didn't think Bugzilla was the top priority Feb 15 18:19:29 ah, fine Feb 15 18:19:43 add to that that it's a holiday here in the US and much of the team is off Feb 15 18:19:44 andre__: extend the maemo one Feb 15 18:19:45 its well so both going to be ?... just wonder because i read somewhere applications will run on both os, Feb 15 18:19:52 except for the silly ones who hang out here, of course Feb 15 18:19:53 (andre__'s the maemo.org bugmaster, for future reference :) Feb 15 18:20:23 andre__ is my new best friend Feb 15 18:20:26 lbt, again? first I want to see the 3.4 update finished ;-) Feb 15 18:20:33 dirkhh: You say now :) Feb 15 18:20:43 * dirkhh will continue to say that Feb 15 18:20:47 jabadoo, nda stuff... Feb 15 18:20:50 bugmasters are super important Feb 15 18:20:53 thankless job Feb 15 18:20:58 dirkhh: be warned, reality can hurt ;-) Feb 15 18:21:00 but... Feb 15 18:21:11 andre__: heh meego is "do it first, finish it later" Feb 15 18:21:18 andre__: believe it or not, I've been around the block in open source... once or twice Feb 15 18:21:43 lbt: see, that's why it's going to be such a great union, maemo is that way too :D Feb 15 18:21:49 MeeGo was kept to a very small core team in order to not have the announcement leak Feb 15 18:21:59 and we managed Feb 15 18:22:03 now that everyone can work on things I expect rapid progress Feb 15 18:22:08 that was impressive, since the small core team wasn't that small Feb 15 18:22:12 (ignoring the holiday) Feb 15 18:22:24 thiago: I lost a bet on that - I bet it would leak Feb 15 18:22:29 very impressed that it didn't Feb 15 18:22:35 and yes, a LOT of people knew Feb 15 18:22:47 dirkhh: I know of people who knew who shouldn't have known Feb 15 18:22:55 what does meego mean for madde and Qt-Creator / madde integration? Feb 15 18:22:55 that's technically a leak... but not to the press Feb 15 18:23:00 thiago: me too Feb 15 18:23:11 agreed Feb 15 18:23:16 hey, maybe I did win my bet Feb 15 18:23:18 that's just seepage Feb 15 18:23:23 at least, engadget was very confused as of Friday Feb 15 18:23:23 madde ... shouldnt we only take the best parts of both communities? Feb 15 18:23:25 * dirkhh shoots off email... Feb 15 18:23:36 rumours are just as bad, and if anyone higher is watching, those sorts of leaks need to be bottled for any future work Feb 15 18:23:39 "Intel and Nokia press conference? What are they going to announce?" Feb 15 18:23:59 thiago: that meego is little more than a giant practical joke Feb 15 18:24:01 and usually engadget is the place to learn about Nokia stuff Feb 15 18:24:11 mikhas... does moblin have a cross-compiling tool? Feb 15 18:24:17 simula_: Qt Creator & MADDE will presumably get lots more developers and users Feb 15 18:24:23 which is weird since they're noticably nokia biased Feb 15 18:24:36 thiago: also, all packages will be in source code form and cmopiled using portage on the device Feb 15 18:24:38 they're carrying now a photo of a phone that is supposed to be the N98 (no don't ask me to comment if it is or not) Feb 15 18:24:53 solarion: lol :-) Feb 15 18:24:55 solarion: I do that on my N810 Feb 15 18:24:58 thiago: also, all UI development will be done using a clone of MFC Feb 15 18:25:08 Xlib calls Feb 15 18:25:28 thiago: xlib calls are not allowed; it *must* be MFC. Feb 15 18:25:54 ATL Feb 15 18:25:55 Qt/Windows port anyone? Feb 15 18:26:08 Qt on Windows is still Qt... Feb 15 18:26:10 simula_, I tried madde. It might help toy projects but other than that it's a joke. Feb 15 18:26:25 thiago: yes, but it probably can be made to work with solarion's MFC-only API Feb 15 18:26:39 yes Feb 15 18:26:53 you need to subclass the proper components Feb 15 18:26:59 Avkon Feb 15 18:27:10 as someone said previously, would be the fix to all problems Feb 15 18:27:13 the core scripting language is haskell Feb 15 18:27:14 mikhas, it's not a joke Feb 15 18:27:22 so did we steal the show on mwc or not? Feb 15 18:27:37 you don't steal mwc without screenshots Feb 15 18:28:07 obviously phones should just ship Gentoo with KDE 4.4 Feb 15 18:29:30 fine, if it isn't a joke then it's torture: downloading 650 MB so that I can scp and run commands via ssh (= starting the app on the device). but instead of plain ssh, you need to start the "mad developer" app on the device first. Feb 15 18:29:38 we have go on n900 already Feb 15 18:29:49 someone was doing qt bindings Feb 15 18:29:53 * thiago likes "mad developer" Feb 15 18:29:57 and the rest is just sbox2 Feb 15 18:30:01 btw, the symbian equivalent is "sad developer" Feb 15 18:30:03 meeg... are you saying meego is going to ship for the n900? Feb 15 18:30:05 open source or not, symbian s^3 really has nothing on maemo Feb 15 18:30:07 thiago, really? the UI? Feb 15 18:30:13 mikhas: no, the command Feb 15 18:30:17 "mad developer" Feb 15 18:30:18 it's really the linux mobile day today, i wasn't expecting this Feb 15 18:30:30 I just use my own cross-compilation toolchain and ssh into the device via USB Feb 15 18:30:31 no, just the shape of emerging tech Feb 15 18:30:31 thiago: it's actually a command. Feb 15 18:30:36 mikhas, enabling development on windows is not a joke Feb 15 18:30:44 took me a while to configure the usb network with it ... because it breaks with every single hildon UI convention Feb 15 18:30:51 it'd be silly if meego didn't run, end of story :P Feb 15 18:30:55 (on n900) Feb 15 18:30:56 im too lazy for smileys on my n900 xchat Feb 15 18:30:57 mikhas, and serious projects work on more than one platform, so you're not required do scp all the time Feb 15 18:31:00 mikhas: ifconfig usb0 192.168.0.1 Feb 15 18:31:08 thiago, exactly Feb 15 18:31:12 homerphone!!!! Feb 15 18:31:19 we need more buttson!! Feb 15 18:31:26 buttson! Feb 15 18:31:30 wolf^ i'm super excited about a shipping madde and seamless qt-creator integration :) Feb 15 18:31:36 just remember to click the PC Suite Mode so that it loads the USB net module Feb 15 18:31:38 Whoa. Quite a crowd! Feb 15 18:31:53 "the fingers you have used to dial this number are too fat, to obtain our special dialing wand mash the keypad now" Feb 15 18:32:02 SDuensin: yeah, going on 300 Feb 15 18:32:21 custom sausage for kbd Feb 15 18:32:25 Hello.. Meego crowd.. I'm surprised to see a nice crowd here... Feb 15 18:32:40 Aww. Unlike most users, I read the topic. Now I am sad. RPM and I don't get along! Feb 15 18:32:48 will meego require 3d acceleration? Feb 15 18:33:01 AstralStorm: hopefully. With Free drivers. Feb 15 18:33:10 AstralStorm: depends on the hardware. Feb 15 18:33:18 solarion: excellent... so I can throw away that n810 ;p Feb 15 18:33:19 solarion: uh, what? Feb 15 18:33:19 AstralStorm: that'll depend on the exact type of device Feb 15 18:33:21 :-( Feb 15 18:33:22 if the CPU is powerful enough, the software renderer is probably enough Feb 15 18:33:26 solarion: there is no such thing as free 3D for handheld platforms Feb 15 18:33:29 AstralStorm: totally Feb 15 18:33:31 definitely it's not ;p Feb 15 18:33:32 SDuensin: perhaps it will refresh the time investment in apt-rpm ;-) Feb 15 18:33:37 on a netbook I'm sure it will; on a very small screen.. not sure 3d is useful as ui element Feb 15 18:33:40 luke-jr: Hey. I can hope can't i? Feb 15 18:33:49 solarion: not reasonably. Feb 15 18:33:52 bah Feb 15 18:34:04 * solarion hopes just to spite luke-jr Feb 15 18:34:07 solarion: the embedded 3D chipsets are owned by Qualcomm and PowerVR-company Feb 15 18:34:09 arjan_: look at android, lot of 3d in ui Feb 15 18:34:15 luke-jr: and amd. Feb 15 18:34:17 luke-jr: maybe intel chan change this Feb 15 18:34:20 yeah, I also wonder what this 3D whizbang is useful for Feb 15 18:34:21 it'd be nice Feb 15 18:34:21 solarion: neither of which give a dust mite for freedom Feb 15 18:34:23 I just learned of this today. How old is MeeGo? Feb 15 18:34:24 av500: real 3d? I must have missed that Feb 15 18:34:26 2D compositing should be sufficient Feb 15 18:34:27 javispedro: no, AMD sold their chipset to Qualcomm Feb 15 18:34:37 luke-jr: ah. Feb 15 18:34:41 AstralStorm: more flops, in my case Feb 15 18:34:44 * solarion lurves flops Feb 15 18:34:45 arjan_: it is coming, might take some time Feb 15 18:34:45 SDuensin: about 8h Feb 15 18:34:50 does meego.com not render right for anyone besides me. I'm stuck on IE at work and site looks real bad Feb 15 18:34:50 * thiago wasted an entire afternoon waiting for the new N900 to charge only to find out that there was no battery inside Feb 15 18:34:59 dirkhh: Wow. Ground floor. :-) Feb 15 18:35:01 AstralStorm: ie6? Feb 15 18:35:09 IE? Feb 15 18:35:12 what's that? Feb 15 18:35:16 AstralStorm: it works fine except for the Flash (Firefox/linux) Feb 15 18:35:17 hehehe Feb 15 18:35:25 ie7 Feb 15 18:35:25 must be some new webbrowser Feb 15 18:35:43 haven't tried it with IE Feb 15 18:35:44 solarion: that's a drawback of flash, not a reason to require 3D hardware for UI Feb 15 18:35:45 Synthaxx: it sounds like a deathcry: "IEEEEEEEEEE" Feb 15 18:35:48 thiago: heh Feb 15 18:36:00 solarion: Internet Exploder Feb 15 18:36:03 Andrewfblack: you need to use a web browser for it Feb 15 18:36:09 solarion: it makes that sound when you BURN IT WITH FIRE Feb 15 18:36:11 AstralStorm: sorry, wrong target. I meant Andrewfblack Feb 15 18:36:14 thiago: http://www.funnycorner.net/funny-pictures/4796/face-palm.jpg ;) Feb 15 18:36:17 Internot Exploiter, yeah Feb 15 18:36:27 thiago, DUI meants not operating devices whilst under influence too ;) Feb 15 18:36:31 leinir: lol Feb 15 18:36:36 Moblin currently required 3d accel so I suppose meego will do for sure Feb 15 18:36:51 * luke-jr has only barely heard of Moblin Feb 15 18:36:53 solarion: instead of optimizing for Flash (ugh), maybe improve speed of cairo and use gnash Feb 15 18:36:53 I know I'm not only person stuck with IE at work site isn't even usable on it rihgt now Feb 15 18:36:55 does anything actually run it? Feb 15 18:37:01 well, you can basically expect any kind of high-end device to have at least OpenGL/ES Feb 15 18:37:05 luke-jr: a handful of Netbooks, apparently Feb 15 18:37:05 AstralStorm: I am running gnash, but it's not working right Feb 15 18:37:11 most of which probably get wiped and loaded with XP... Feb 15 18:37:12 at least on these pages Feb 15 18:37:18 Andrewfblack: so get a browser Feb 15 18:37:23 AstralStorm: the ideal soultion would be HTML5/Ogg Feb 15 18:37:24 Andrewfblack: get firefox portable on a usb stick, that's what i use at work Feb 15 18:37:30 solarion: yeah, swfdec seems to work better... Feb 15 18:37:37 but it requires accelerated cairo Feb 15 18:37:38 AstralStorm: ah, taht could be Feb 15 18:37:43 I shold ahve accel cairo Feb 15 18:37:45 for any kind of reasonable speed Feb 15 18:37:54 and devel is... stale recently Feb 15 18:37:56 I work at a location that has usb ports blocked :) Feb 15 18:38:08 Andrewfblack: so reboot ;P Feb 15 18:38:18 ah, only one solution left then, find a better job Feb 15 18:38:21 I SSH out using NX to get a desktop at work. Keeps me sane. Feb 15 18:38:23 * Synthaxx marked as *wontfix* Feb 15 18:39:08 * Andrewfblack goes to look for a place to find a bug on website Feb 15 18:39:31 (actually trying to reproduce this, but don't have any windows machines LOL) Feb 15 18:39:36 the news i'm most disappointed in today is buglabs supporting android. they really should have chosen maemo Feb 15 18:39:48 uhsf: u can still put maemo..... Feb 15 18:39:50 no? Feb 15 18:39:53 uhsf: google has more $$$ Feb 15 18:40:03 or do they put a hw lock that prevents maemo? Feb 15 18:40:21 Question: What's the status of Meego on the N900? Feb 15 18:41:18 Jonshipman: given that iirc there's no code, I'm gonna guess (quite a ways away ;) Feb 15 18:41:31 ugh, that should've been quotes. brain no workie Feb 15 18:41:40 uhsf: wasn't Buglabs already java-centric? Feb 15 18:42:01 solarion: not that any code should be really necessary... Feb 15 18:42:07 well, maybe except X driver Feb 15 18:42:28 AstralStorm: if there's no code, it can't run on the n900. :) Feb 15 18:42:30 Andrewfblack: just tried it on an old VM in IE6, but it looks ok to me Feb 15 18:42:45 sure the formatting is a bit screwy Feb 15 18:42:49 but the site works Feb 15 18:46:36 Synthaxx: we're working on the IE6 issues Feb 15 18:47:13 mlfoster: you're a webmonkey on meego.com? Feb 15 18:47:14 mlfoster: why??? :( Feb 15 18:47:15 i had to search (hard) for a machine that even has it, Andrewfblack had the actual problem ;) Feb 15 18:47:35 I'm part of the web team, yes Feb 15 18:47:36 luke-jr: I'm guessing for corporate types Feb 15 18:47:37 nobody should be using IE6 Feb 15 18:47:45 even microsoft tells everyone to please stop using it Feb 15 18:47:48 mlfoster: Could we please have HTML5/Ogg version of the videos? Feb 15 18:47:54 luke-jr: what Arjan says... Feb 15 18:47:57 at least soon it'll move... since google and others are pulling the plug Feb 15 18:48:07 arjan_: agreed Feb 15 18:48:13 mlfoster: just redirect IE6 to a webpage saying "Webbrowser required!" Feb 15 18:48:15 <.< Feb 15 18:48:18 arjan_: corporations spent far too long ignoring single-supplier issues Feb 15 18:48:24 ie7 isn't working right either Feb 15 18:48:24 though i'd like it if they actually nuked it from orbit Feb 15 18:48:43 aw, c'mon. IE6 is quite a nice HTML2 browser. Feb 15 18:48:51 javispedro: not really Feb 15 18:49:02 ns4 is the champ there. :) Feb 15 18:49:15 touché Feb 15 18:49:26 nameserver 4 ftw Feb 15 18:49:51 Bizarre Feb 15 18:49:55 nice. Feb 15 18:49:56 <|R> Mosaic ftw! ;) Feb 15 18:49:57 'lo GA Feb 15 18:49:58 heja GeneralAntilles Feb 15 18:50:21 * GeneralAntilles is still reading. Feb 15 18:50:29 hey there wedge ;) Feb 15 18:50:33 GeneralAntilles: they heard your complaints about Maemo; since they don't want to make M6 work on N900, they decided to just say Maemo 6 will never exist! :P Feb 15 18:50:44 heh Feb 15 18:50:51 hi @all Feb 15 18:50:53 luke-jr: they don't say that though Feb 15 18:50:53 they killed the maemo! bastards! Feb 15 18:50:56 luke-jr: is this the video? Feb 15 18:51:01 i read that maemo and moblin get together Feb 15 18:51:07 Stskeeps: it's a joke -.- Feb 15 18:51:09 does anyone know wether MeeGoo will run with the nokia n900 ? Feb 15 18:51:12 TheOne: in the colloquial sense Feb 15 18:51:25 TheOne: no, but it's OSS so it should be possible. If not, I will hope to make it happen :P Feb 15 18:51:48 * GeneralAntilles isn't sure of the point yet. Feb 15 18:51:51 Stskeeps: but N900 doesn't support OSS! :P Feb 15 18:51:51 Does this obviate Mer? Feb 15 18:51:56 Replace Moblin or Maemo? Feb 15 18:52:07 GeneralAntilles: lemme find my post Feb 15 18:52:07 GeneralAntilles: unite Feb 15 18:52:09 it replaces everything including humans. Feb 15 18:52:19 javispedro: w00t! My work here is done then Feb 15 18:52:27 i'm happy to have chosen maemo before the meego announcement because i'm now part of the true pionneers of the origins of the first and biggest free software movement for mobile devices Feb 15 18:52:31 hmm okay, now i am confused Feb 15 18:52:54 GeneralAntilles: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=527268&postcount=94 is my stance Feb 15 18:53:05 uhsf: AFAIK, there's still a question as to whether it's really open Feb 15 18:53:11 can I have a maemo tablet now? Feb 15 18:53:13 but what happens with maemo, if the the combination is more a joke Feb 15 18:53:16 luke-jr: ?? Feb 15 18:53:21 luke-jr: your definition of open is always interesting Feb 15 18:53:41 arjan_: meet luke-jr, our local maemo.org licensing troll :) Feb 15 18:53:43 arjan_: have any of the hardware vendors agreed to cooperate with that goal? Feb 15 18:53:51 av500: AstralStorm: microlith: i don't know, tell me more about buglabs. i'm interested in them for some years now. i really would like to do a prototype project if i had time or money Feb 15 18:53:55 at least th iPad brings hope for revitalization of tablet/slates Feb 15 18:53:57 arjan_: eg, Qualcomm or the PowerVR org Feb 15 18:54:02 luke-jr: do you consider the n900 open? Feb 15 18:54:10 arjan_: no. Feb 15 18:54:13 Stskeeps, still not sure I get it. Feb 15 18:54:24 arjan_: it's impossible to run it with free software Feb 15 18:54:24 luke-jr: I'm pretty sure MeeGo will be fully opensource. On the other side, you won't be able to put it on any device ;) Feb 15 18:54:32 luke-jr: PowerVR = http://www.imgtec.com/index.asp Feb 15 18:54:34 javispedro: -.- Feb 15 18:54:37 It's just yet-another-distro based on the open source stacks of Moblin and Maemo? Feb 15 18:54:39 GeneralAntilles: MeeGo makes Mer unnecessary Feb 15 18:54:43 uhsf: I've no idea about them :) Feb 15 18:54:47 villemv, apparently. Feb 15 18:54:52 GeneralAntilles: meego gives a base system that's fully open source (similar to mer), there's project structure, governance, etc Feb 15 18:54:57 GeneralAntilles: from a technical point of view, it's moblin with the harmattan gui Feb 15 18:54:57 microlith: yes... have they expressed interest in participating? Feb 15 18:55:01 it's Maemo with new name + Intel participation Feb 15 18:55:03 uhsf: no idea about bug labs except what i read in the news... Feb 15 18:55:04 * GeneralAntilles would've liked to see Intel and Nokia getting behind Mer instead. Feb 15 18:55:25 GeneralAntilles: Mer was not in a state to let anyone do that and I think Meego is a better choice. Feb 15 18:55:26 luke-jr: moblin is rather open source, and I'm sure meego will be as well; but it might be that to put it on a product someone will add binary stuff Feb 15 18:55:29 like the n900 did Feb 15 18:55:35 GeneralAntilles: Mer is too small with only 3 letters, you need 5 to have intel and nokia behing it :) Feb 15 18:55:54 GeneralAntilles: it fullfills most of my hopes i had originally, and in a short term timeframe Feb 15 18:55:58 arjan_: meh. Feb 15 18:56:03 I'm not sure how I feel about all of the new services, either. Feb 15 18:56:06 what pisses me off if I've been doing development for Maemo for 3 years and just learned to make proper source package and now they change kinds of packages I'm set back 3 year of work lol Feb 15 18:56:07 * GeneralAntilles needs to read more. Feb 15 18:56:08 luke-jr: but it depends on what hardware you pick Feb 15 18:56:24 luke-jr: if you pick an intel netbook it's quite open ;-) Feb 15 18:56:25 luke-jr: from Nokia: It will be governed by the best practices of open source. Feb 15 18:56:28 Andrewfblack: if you know packaging once, you'll know it again Feb 15 18:56:42 arjan_: unless you get one with a powervr based graphics chip Feb 15 18:56:48 I guess the fact that you can do your first proper source package after 3 years speaks for RPM ;-) Feb 15 18:56:48 So, who are the MeeGo people in the room? Feb 15 18:56:50 luke-jr: if you pick hardware where the hw vendor does not like open source, you're stuck Feb 15 18:56:53 * GeneralAntilles sees lots of Maemo people. Feb 15 18:56:58 Maybe MeeGo should require the hardware support + base be open for using the trademark ;) Feb 15 18:57:00 arjan_: x86 sucks Feb 15 18:57:01 microlith: yeah don't do that Feb 15 18:57:02 we are all MeeGo people now Feb 15 18:57:23 not sure if their are any old Moblin people here or not Feb 15 18:57:24 (public service announcement) Feb 15 18:57:28 villemv, hardly, I just got here. :P Feb 15 18:57:30 uhsf: Nokia hasn't made an open source friendly device yet, despite advertising it. I don't trust their word. Feb 15 18:57:41 GeneralAntilles: you're being assimilated! resistance is futile! Feb 15 18:57:45 Who are the people who actually understand what's up and have some real pre-knowledge. Feb 15 18:57:55 just feel the MeeGo love and subsist Feb 15 18:57:57 Andrewfblack: yes, quite a lot Feb 15 18:57:59 actually, Moblin's biggest issue has been working with the PowerVR chipsets Feb 15 18:58:03 GeneralAntilles: dirk, me, various nokia folks Feb 15 18:58:07 Lots of moblin people here Feb 15 18:58:10 especially on the intel cips Feb 15 18:58:11 chips* Feb 15 18:58:58 hi GeneralAntilles welcome to the confusion Feb 15 18:59:22 * GeneralAntilles is reading Quim's announcement. Feb 15 18:59:24 GeneralAntilles: if you're reading still, you're going to get scared senseless. i suggest reading a bit of some of stskeeps' posts and lines from time to time to recover some optimism. Feb 15 18:59:56 (FWIW, i did not have pre-knowledge of Meego, but from what I see and hear, I'm hopeful.) Feb 15 19:00:05 also, it's kickass there's OBS involved Feb 15 19:00:05 :P Feb 15 19:00:18 hi VDVsx Feb 15 19:00:28 I heard that there's a party happening here, is that true ? :D Feb 15 19:00:32 indeed Feb 15 19:00:38 VDVsx, a very confused one. <_< Feb 15 19:00:40 there's a rpm vs deb flame! Feb 15 19:00:46 So, um, what's the target? Feb 15 19:00:48 deb FTW Feb 15 19:00:49 Same as Mer? Feb 15 19:00:51 * VDVsx hides Feb 15 19:00:51 (public service announcement) VDVsx is current chair of maemo.org community council Feb 15 19:00:59 GeneralAntilles: it looks wider, also for netbooks etc and TVs Feb 15 19:01:02 javispedro: I thought that died 2 hours ago Feb 15 19:01:03 So everybody go sit on him. Feb 15 19:01:03 many different devices Feb 15 19:01:28 From a corporate standpoint, what's the motivation? Feb 15 19:01:28 arjan_: starting night shift, so it's time for another one. Feb 15 19:01:30 arjan_: I'm sure people will stoke it back up periodically Feb 15 19:01:31 too bad it's monday => sober party Feb 15 19:01:31 GeneralAntilles: it is a really compelling platform Feb 15 19:01:32 For Nokia, anyway. Feb 15 19:01:39 GeneralAntilles: it's all marketting Feb 15 19:01:44 Is this just a resource sharing investment with Intel? Feb 15 19:01:56 GeneralAntilles: also mindshare sharing Feb 15 19:01:57 GeneralAntilles: more than just resource sharing Feb 15 19:02:06 GeneralAntilles: it's also about getting a big as possible installed base Feb 15 19:02:10 for app writers Feb 15 19:02:10 Will Nokia allow a update from Maemo to MeeGo on the N900??? Feb 15 19:02:11 GeneralAntilles: i think the compelling thing is qt -everywhere- Feb 15 19:02:23 kristof78: let's see when the code comes out? You can install 3rd party OS'es on your N900 Feb 15 19:02:25 and is it possible Feb 15 19:02:26 indeed, for non-phones too. I want a tablet damnit Feb 15 19:02:27 How compatible is MeeGo going to be with upstream Moblin and Maemo? Feb 15 19:02:32 kristof78: so it's not about "allow" Feb 15 19:02:33 * VDVsx wants Qt in his toaster :) Feb 15 19:02:33 villemv: it's a holiday in the US and large parts of canada Feb 15 19:02:40 GeneralAntilles: it's going to replace them, so... Feb 15 19:02:45 Aside from packaging, are applications going to be easily portable? Feb 15 19:02:46 GeneralAntilles: moblin and maemo _merges_ Feb 15 19:02:47 man, I'm in the wrong country Feb 15 19:02:48 like what OS are tested already Feb 15 19:02:48 javispedro, is it? Feb 15 19:02:50 GeneralAntilles: if you build on Qt Feb 15 19:02:51 destinal-home: it is? Feb 15 19:02:52 villemv: so you can be sober if you like Feb 15 19:02:53 Hooboy Feb 15 19:03:04 heya Feb 15 19:03:12 GeneralAntilles: Harmattan will be the last non-Moblin based "Maemo" release. Feb 15 19:03:14 GeneralAntilles: but it seems they'll have GTK too Feb 15 19:03:14 luke-jr: coincidentally US has president's day and Canada has family day Feb 15 19:03:15 So, um, who came up with the name? <_< Feb 15 19:03:17 wait.. meego, is that gonna run on the n900? Feb 15 19:03:25 and it's Carnival too Feb 15 19:03:27 GeneralAntilles: some marketing guy on acid, probably, but dunno Feb 15 19:03:31 If they're merging, what does that mean for maemo.org? Feb 15 19:03:32 GeneralAntilles: what do you think you get if you put lawyers and branding people from two big companies in a room Feb 15 19:03:36 but it's fun. MeeGo 2 Summit! Feb 15 19:03:36 :P Feb 15 19:03:37 answer "Meego" :) Feb 15 19:03:38 GeneralAntilles: they grabbed it from intel's trademark drawer. Feb 15 19:03:39 It services and such? Feb 15 19:03:44 it's the first one they found :) Feb 15 19:03:48 GeneralAntilles: it's up for maemo.org to figure out, there was a statement.. sec Feb 15 19:03:58 intel registered it circa 1999 from what I read on whois. Feb 15 19:04:01 Man, it's too early in the week. Feb 15 19:04:04 "Me tarzan. Me go get phone" Feb 15 19:04:16 GeneralAntilles: i have had a constant headache today Feb 15 19:04:21 why the heck is tmomail.com broken? Feb 15 19:04:24 I'm wondering if there was a guideline that it had to start with M Feb 15 19:04:24 GeneralAntilles: http://wiki.meego.com/Maemo_and_Moblin_community_assets Feb 15 19:04:50 guh... that "wiki" font Feb 15 19:05:01 some kind of kids play house font Feb 15 19:05:07 Is it better than Maeblin? Feb 15 19:05:11 thiago_home, yes of course, is like the Qt stuff ;) Feb 15 19:05:14 are they selling toys? Feb 15 19:05:21 the cutesy meego graphics are somehow reminiscent of new symbian look Feb 15 19:05:23 GeneralAntilles: more interestingily, what happens to maemo.org staff, too, so Feb 15 19:05:42 Stskeeps, I gotta say, this doesn't put me in a particularly good place. Feb 15 19:05:49 Moblaemo? Feb 15 19:05:52 destinal-home: make it Maeglin and you've got a Tolkien name Feb 15 19:06:02 and then you get sued Feb 15 19:06:19 GeneralAntilles: i think it's up to us to figure out what to do as well. Feb 15 19:06:22 as it's a clean slate atm. Feb 15 19:06:28 Stskeeps, will be converted in meego.org stuff ? Feb 15 19:06:33 *staff Feb 15 19:06:40 MobGo? MaeLin? MobMo? Feb 15 19:06:42 VDVsx: infra is not connected, at all Feb 15 19:06:43 I mean, reducing fragmentation and getting a stable mobile distribution together is something I've wanted for a long time. Feb 15 19:06:48 Mobama Feb 15 19:06:53 M&M Feb 15 19:06:54 VDVsx: meego.org is registered to some chinese guyh Feb 15 19:07:01 oh Feb 15 19:07:06 nice Feb 15 19:07:07 But looking at things right now, this has really leached all of my energy out. :\ Feb 15 19:07:08 fail Feb 15 19:07:23 the moblin assets are a bit dissapointing looking at the wiki to be honest... Feb 15 19:07:31 I dunno, I'm all psyched about this change Feb 15 19:07:40 Stskeeps, I'm attached to maemo.org and Maemo. Feb 15 19:07:44 GeneralAntilles: of course, so am i Feb 15 19:07:45 MeeGo doesn't do anything for me. Feb 15 19:07:51 Except make me want to chuckle sadly. Feb 15 19:07:52 me too :( Feb 15 19:07:53 they're going to strip them from your bare, dead fingers! Feb 15 19:08:03 er... cold. Feb 15 19:08:17 GeneralAntilles: think of it this way - it's Maemo, but now seriously being pushed outside Nokia devices Feb 15 19:08:18 GeneralAntilles: fact is, we have to modernize our community and make it into a working one Feb 15 19:08:27 like tablets, new mid generations... Feb 15 19:08:27 instead of a discussing and bickering one Feb 15 19:08:35 governance is a -huge- topic early on Feb 15 19:08:40 Stskeeps, I don't know that this will help. Feb 15 19:08:45 Stskeeps: that means letting us at all the code! Like BME! Feb 15 19:08:54 I thought discussions and bickering were what OSS did best? *ducks* Feb 15 19:08:57 hate to tell you this, but that's something that happens with every community Feb 15 19:09:02 bikeshedding Feb 15 19:09:03 Why the hell would you abandon a 5 year old brand like this? Feb 15 19:09:15 Especially for _MeeGo_?! Feb 15 19:09:20 GeneralAntilles: because Intel Feb 15 19:09:22 GeneralAntilles: the benefit is bigger than the loss Feb 15 19:09:24 would it have been terrible to fold moblin into the maemo stuff and call it maemo? Feb 15 19:09:25 GeneralAntilles: I really hope they just continue to use the Maemo brand..... and leave MeeGo as the geekiness core stuff. Feb 15 19:09:28 GeneralAntilles: Intel wants credit Feb 15 19:09:39 destinal-home, don't think so. Feb 15 19:09:42 GeneralAntilles... not many people recognize maemo, but tons recognize "intel" Feb 15 19:09:44 destinal-home, that's the power of maemo.org. Feb 15 19:09:46 GeneralAntilles: but... but... it's shiny ... and new! Feb 15 19:09:46 I guess the real brands will be "NSeries" etc Feb 15 19:09:50 well I need to get back to work Meego now later. Feb 15 19:09:54 I mean, just rename MeeGo Tablet UX to "Maemo" and MeeGo Netbook UX to "Moblin". Feb 15 19:10:15 GeneralAntilles: we should offer Mer as a name ;P Feb 15 19:10:15 GeneralAntilles: to make Intel feel better :/ Feb 15 19:10:22 Andrewfblack: Yoogo Feb 15 19:10:24 later Feb 15 19:10:34 Stskeeps, yeah. Feb 15 19:10:41 Stskeeps, I don't see why getting behind Mer would've been an issue. Feb 15 19:10:41 geez.. so may nicks already Feb 15 19:10:56 ljp: almost 300 Feb 15 19:10:57 hey, they're using the buildsystem of mer, so hey - your're already familiar with it Feb 15 19:10:58 Stskeeps, whether or not the codebase is where they want it, it's still an established, likable brand. Feb 15 19:11:04 I was here when it was 76 :-) Feb 15 19:11:10 But I just named my son Maemo! Feb 15 19:11:15 hehe Feb 15 19:11:21 * Jaffa was here when it was 3 (or 4) Feb 15 19:11:40 fiferboy_: FAIL Feb 15 19:11:41 Jaffa: good old days Feb 15 19:11:42 * GeneralAntilles really doesn't like the feeling of having the community he's put 5 years of time into subverted for Intel. Feb 15 19:11:43 so where's the issue to put stuff on top of it as meamo/mer did Feb 15 19:11:53 At least MeeGo is easier to pronounce Feb 15 19:12:08 there was a restaurant at my uni Feb 15 19:12:09 maemo again! Feb 15 19:12:10 named MeGo Feb 15 19:12:14 vmlemon_: but makes less sense Feb 15 19:12:16 "Me go" is caveman english... Feb 15 19:12:17 it had the *best* baked potato ever Feb 15 19:12:20 Stskeeps, a lot of moblin work is done in China Feb 15 19:12:26 Maemo = my mo(ble) Feb 15 19:12:27 GeneralAntilles: could be worse... Qtopia fate Feb 15 19:12:29 I'm going to pronounce it as "Amiga" Feb 15 19:12:30 seriously.. every baked potato needs salami and gyro meat Feb 15 19:12:42 Moblin = mob(ile) Lin(ux) Feb 15 19:12:43 Stskeeps, that assets page doesn't tell me anything. Feb 15 19:12:49 MeeGo = wtf? Feb 15 19:12:49 Stskeeps, except that Moblin has few. Feb 15 19:12:58 Stskeeps: Agree that governance of community is big part and our council can get involved on moblin-dev ML ("oh noes, a mailing list!"), but Moblin community loks similar in many ways to the pre-N800 launch Maemo one Feb 15 19:13:14 http://www.maemoit.org/extra/lapide.jpg :D Feb 15 19:13:16 to be honest i hadn't heard a peep about moblin for about 4 months until today Feb 15 19:13:27 Mah-em-oh? Mee-moh? May-moh? Feb 15 19:13:29 GeneralAntilles: i like to think of it as a new building for maemo.org to move into. Feb 15 19:13:37 Stskeeps, I don't like the paint. Feb 15 19:13:40 i'm calming down about meego, i was going to let the trolls do all the hard work with madde in porting my apps anyway, and i was definitely going to buy the next version of the n900 as it is Feb 15 19:13:42 GeneralAntilles: s/subverted by Intel/freed from Nokia/ and maybe you will feel better? Feb 15 19:13:47 vmlemon_: Imhoteph Feb 15 19:13:53 GeneralAntilles: time to buy brushes for painting Feb 15 19:13:56 Harmattan is not very easy to pronounce either. Feb 15 19:14:04 Stskeeps: But from the tech side (i.e. here) we've seen lots of Intel folk Feb 15 19:14:11 the next code name also hard to pronounce right. Feb 15 19:14:12 Jaffa: and Qt people Feb 15 19:14:13 yeah because everyone calls it freemantle Feb 15 19:14:14 e.g. the excellent dirkhh Feb 15 19:14:18 Stskeeps: true Feb 15 19:14:28 Throatwobbler Mangrove Feb 15 19:14:33 * Jaffa guesses qgil is busy ;) Feb 15 19:14:34 Jaffa: i like what i see, especially with many people being here instead of hiding. Feb 15 19:14:35 meego is like friend in Portuguese, lol Feb 15 19:14:36 the only real cost is having to learn rpm while i'm in the middle of learning how to package deb :) Feb 15 19:14:37 that's a plus. Feb 15 19:14:43 VDVsx: missing the "a" Feb 15 19:15:06 Jaffa: and that maemo developers will now have to cooperate with intel in the public, is a good thing Feb 15 19:15:10 which can only benefit us outsiders. Feb 15 19:15:12 * vmlemon_ thought that it sounded like a Spanish kids' show, or an el-cheapo electric bike Feb 15 19:15:27 close to 300 now Feb 15 19:15:28 Stskeeps, but . . . MeeGo?! Feb 15 19:15:32 xd Feb 15 19:15:44 maybe it'll grow on us Feb 15 19:15:45 GeneralAntilles: if governance sucks, we make a variant on OBS called Mer, and govern that Feb 15 19:15:46 like.. Wii Feb 15 19:15:48 :P Feb 15 19:15:49 * simula_ actually thinks meego sounds kinda catchy Feb 15 19:15:49 thiago_home, there's a region in Portugal that people say amigo just like meego :D Feb 15 19:15:51 GeneralAntilles: YuuGo running in the other direction Feb 15 19:15:52 Stskeeps: Agreed. But I can understand a sentiment of "Nokia's given Maemo to Intel and the Linux Foundation. And then legged it saying "yippee, we can concentrate on value-add propositions" Feb 15 19:15:53 WiiGo! Feb 15 19:16:10 At least I don't have to be embarrassed when I tell people about my hobby with Maemo. . . . Feb 15 19:16:14 Wii all go together Feb 15 19:16:21 hmm Feb 15 19:16:35 yay 300 Feb 15 19:16:39 * vmlemon_ thinks that this is a victory for us (Symbian folks) Feb 15 19:16:42 I wonder if meego will inherit the moblin + powervr disaster Feb 15 19:16:43 "This is SPARTA!!" Feb 15 19:16:52 hehe Feb 15 19:16:54 symbian? are they in it too?! Feb 15 19:16:57 how so vmlemon_? Feb 15 19:16:58 VDVsx: kicked off a thread on moblin-dev yet? Feb 15 19:17:00 this bends down to: how do we apply a human face and community feel to this currently quite technical project Feb 15 19:17:09 Stskeeps: indeed Feb 15 19:17:19 that has been the problem from the start Feb 15 19:17:21 and how do we make sure it won't get run as a closed operation Feb 15 19:17:40 Well, it means that since Nokia don't have to put as much effort into Maemo (which was a niche product), they can invest more into our community ;) Feb 15 19:17:41 so when will the source dump happen? Feb 15 19:17:45 Stskeeps: by unchaining the floor Feb 15 19:17:51 microlith: what's the powervr disaster? Feb 15 19:18:00 Although it's Open Source, and we should all have room for each other... Feb 15 19:18:02 vmlemon_: you mean the Symbian community? Feb 15 19:18:02 destinal-home: PowerVR is closed. Feb 15 19:18:03 hehe Feb 15 19:18:05 microlith: powervr is a disaster, but what does that have to do with moblin or meego ? Feb 15 19:18:07 vmlemon_: many of us had the idea that it was just taking off with the unveiling of the n900 Feb 15 19:18:07 microlith: nokia's really really good at powervr. Feb 15 19:18:10 it's a disaster everywhere Feb 15 19:18:11 villemv: grab the latest moblin dump and the latest maemo6 dui dump (released today btw) Feb 15 19:18:15 vmlemon_: i don't think they will use any *less* effort. This means more work, not less Feb 15 19:18:23 Jaffa, have to subscribe first :), I'm a bit tired to do community work, still digesting everything Feb 15 19:18:26 arjan_: because it's been an explicit problem with devices that shipped with *nix, particularly moblin Feb 15 19:18:27 that's what vmlemon_ meant thiago_home :) Feb 15 19:18:37 thiago_home: Yeah, to clarify, I'm referring to the Symbian community Feb 15 19:18:37 microlith: n900 has one too Feb 15 19:18:38 I'm aproaching this from the wrong angle. Not how do we join two communities, that comes later. How do we forfm a new community. Feb 15 19:18:43 er, is the moblin dump at all representative of meego? Feb 15 19:18:54 Jaffa: exactly. Feb 15 19:18:56 I wish you folks the best of luck, though Feb 15 19:19:05 Jaffa: and how do we avoid the current problems Feb 15 19:19:11 vmlemon_: I think we're hoping that the Symbian community actually merges with the MeeGo community and just make cross-platform software. Feb 15 19:19:15 (Especially given that there's a lot of uncertainty and unease involved) Feb 15 19:19:30 well, make a meego forum for once ... Feb 15 19:19:35 Symbian doesn't have an OSS tradition, whereas both Maemo and Moblin do Feb 15 19:19:39 Stskeeps: /me mentions no names ;) Feb 15 19:19:41 I was hoping that Qt would make that a reality, but it seems to have created a chasm Feb 15 19:19:53 Stskeeps, Jaffa , moblin community doesn't seems big and diverse as maemo, perhaps I've a wring assumption Feb 15 19:20:00 (Thanks to Nokia deciding to create yet another bunch of widgets for the Symbian Platform) Feb 15 19:20:01 vmlemon_: forget the UI extensions. The core Qt is still cross-platform. Feb 15 19:20:08 and the issue is not forgotten on us. Feb 15 19:20:17 Jaffa: I actually hope to have people like Texrat full force in things like this and many others Feb 15 19:20:18 Indeed Feb 15 19:20:19 VDVsx: That's my impression having been getting back into it today Feb 15 19:20:21 oh, new maling list requests, what about meego-deb-whining@meego.com :) Feb 15 19:20:29 * gladiac looks for beer and popcorn Feb 15 19:20:38 VDVsx: "meego" seems like an emo-like, teen-like internet language version for "amigo" :) Feb 15 19:20:54 Stskeeps: indeed Feb 15 19:20:57 Jaffa: i'm just worried meego will be shell shocked by the community :) Feb 15 19:21:03 like, thinking of other things than tech Feb 15 19:21:17 abinader, nah, that would be different :D Feb 15 19:21:20 What do we do about the Council? Feb 15 19:21:22 jaffa having hidden skeletons and nudge nudge wink wink things doesnt bode well for an open community Feb 15 19:21:26 I guess we need a timeline for merging tools? Feb 15 19:21:28 * GeneralAntilles sighs. Feb 15 19:21:40 VDVsx: like "oiiiiiiii meego!!" hehehe Feb 15 19:21:44 Stskeeps: Tech builds community. It did for Maemo. Feb 15 19:22:00 Jaffa: http://meego.com/about/governance say technical, technical, technical.. Feb 15 19:22:08 there's more to that in a community Feb 15 19:22:18 "I'm going to buy a meego devive" will sound like you're buying some kind of mexican slave? Feb 15 19:22:23 *device Feb 15 19:22:38 mexican slave device? sounds something I'd rather pay $600 for! Feb 15 19:22:42 First order of business should be holding a referendum to change the branding. <_< Feb 15 19:23:01 GeneralAntilles: no, RPM -> DEB Feb 15 19:23:05 ;) Feb 15 19:23:10 hehe Feb 15 19:23:14 Stskeeps, that too. :\ Feb 15 19:23:18 * GeneralAntilles doesn't love this. Feb 15 19:23:20 Feb 15 19:23:31 GeneralAntilles, me neither :( Feb 15 19:23:38 instead of getting the moblin base and harmattan gui get the maemo base and moblin gtk gui Feb 15 19:23:41 GeneralAntilles: if you ask people if they want to change, they'll say no Feb 15 19:23:41 back to gtk! Feb 15 19:23:43 GeneralAntilles: A MeeGo Community Council would, if needed, presumably interface commuunity with TSG. But that's open, so Feb 15 19:23:45 probably because I don't have rpm experience :D Feb 15 19:24:16 javispedro, don't think so Feb 15 19:24:33 gtk will be second class citizen there, afaik Feb 15 19:24:36 How big's TSG? And has the first one been selected/announced yet? Feb 15 19:24:36 VDVsx: I imagine :) Feb 15 19:24:37 Jaffa: would be interesting to hear quim's role in meego too Feb 15 19:24:48 VDVsx: look at the FAQ on that one Feb 15 19:24:49 Sts indeed Feb 15 19:24:53 and who needs X anyway. Make meego CLI only. ASCII art map navigation is enough for everyone. Feb 15 19:25:06 Jaffa: [Meego-dev] Requesting web-team@meego.com list, by quim on meego-dev is a good start to community participation Feb 15 19:25:12 Shapeshifter: +1!!! Feb 15 19:25:13 that means porting Qt to ncurses Feb 15 19:25:32 Qt everywhere, of course. Feb 15 19:25:42 I thought Qt already runs on ncurses? no? Feb 15 19:25:45 Sts Name sucks ;) Feb 15 19:25:45 Sts Will catchup when I get home Feb 15 19:25:45 * Jaffa wants to moan abou Feb 15 19:25:50 dirkhh: not that I've seen Feb 15 19:25:58 I know someone ported GTK to ncurses... Feb 15 19:26:02 * vmlemon_ wonders who thought that MeeGo was a Qt name ;) Feb 15 19:26:07 Sodding N900's stopped tabbing properly. Grr. Feb 15 19:26:17 wait Feb 15 19:26:19 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44603 Feb 15 19:26:19 QMeeGo any1? :) Feb 15 19:26:21 DRM free? Feb 15 19:26:23 libyui can render qt and ncurses Feb 15 19:26:34 * Jaffa wants to complain about s/Meego/MeeGo/ on the ML subject prefix ;) Feb 15 19:26:37 Jaffa: another issue is talk.meego.com, too :P Feb 15 19:26:42 and gtk for those who prefer ugly guis ;) Feb 15 19:26:48 One for GeneralAntilles to pick up. Feb 15 19:26:50 dirkhh: I think we ran that April Fools joke one too many times :-) Feb 15 19:27:03 Jaffa, I'm just going to complain about the brand. Feb 15 19:27:13 Jaffa, I don't really give a damn how people use it. :P Feb 15 19:27:15 gladiac, ahah Feb 15 19:27:19 Jaffa, it just shouldn't exist in the first place. <_< Feb 15 19:27:24 Hellopaca! Feb 15 19:27:34 hi JockeTF Feb 15 19:28:05 Hej Feb 15 19:28:45 heh Feb 15 19:28:49 meeego.com Feb 15 19:29:03 porn site already? Feb 15 19:29:15 I don't want to read through Talk, do I? Feb 15 19:29:24 luckikly no Feb 15 19:30:01 GeneralAntilles: the thread is about it Feb 15 19:30:05 Created on: 21-May-06 Feb 15 19:30:12 GeneralAntilles: and then the ask the council thread Feb 15 19:30:13 GeneralAntilles, spoiler: 80% of the post there are about maemo6/meego in the N900 Feb 15 19:30:53 strange Feb 15 19:31:02 GeneralAntilles: and http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44581 is worth a read Feb 15 19:31:03 GeneralAntilles: I said earlier I was smart with the mwkn.net domain ;) Feb 15 19:31:11 * microlith wants an omap4430 dev platform :> Feb 15 19:31:38 microlith: what's that one? 720 MHz? or 1 GHz? Feb 15 19:31:45 microlith: dual core ARM? Feb 15 19:31:56 thiago_home: yes, TI's A9 MPCore based OMAP Feb 15 19:33:05 thiago_home: Regarding a Symbian/MeeGo merger - that wouldn't be feasible technically. Feb 15 19:33:15 vmlemon_: not of the platform Feb 15 19:33:30 * luke-jr wants Qualcomm's dual-core 1.5 GHz Cortex-A8 Feb 15 19:33:37 but if we can at least create a bridge between the communities Feb 15 19:33:47 especially if it brings more apps to either side Feb 15 19:34:10 but I draw the line at porting Avkon to X11 Feb 15 19:34:13 The only real common ground is support for Qt and POSIX Feb 15 19:34:35 It doesn't help that the Symbian folks are at a crossroads with J2ME, either Feb 15 19:34:47 (We can't include it in the base platform, thanks to various licensing issues) Feb 15 19:35:02 ah, meego without the capital G was a failed SF sitcom tv series in the late 90's Feb 15 19:35:08 and it doesn't help that the only programming environment for S40 is Java Feb 15 19:35:15 Unless someone ports and integrates Apache Harmony Feb 15 19:35:17 Indeed Feb 15 19:35:21 and that's where the volume is... 400 million+ shipments per year Feb 15 19:36:10 Of course, Sun's Java is GPL'd, which is incompatible with the EPL... Feb 15 19:36:26 A commercial license wouldn't work, so an OEM would have to negotiate that Feb 15 19:36:38 *R&D license Feb 15 19:37:12 btw, for those of you who were engaged in the DEB-vs-RPM "discussion": Symbian got today its first "smart installer" :-) Feb 15 19:37:36 ugh Feb 15 19:37:49 where by "smart" it means "attempts to be smarter than the user" Feb 15 19:38:36 Amusingly, even our preferred font rasteriser (from Agfa MonoType) was covered under a proprietary license at one stage, although FreeType works and is integrated into the "vanilla" Platform codebase Feb 15 19:39:24 what does mobilin actually run on? are there any legit mass produced devices out there? Feb 15 19:39:26 A lot of stuff that was/is proprietary has either been stripped out, or delivered in R&D-licensed binaries, though Feb 15 19:39:28 Such is life Feb 15 19:39:39 i mean .. right now .. obv. it could run on a lot of stuff Feb 15 19:39:43 Netbooks, apparently Feb 15 19:39:59 Not that I've seen a MobLin-powered netbook in a shop Feb 15 19:40:33 any one else??? Feb 15 19:40:52 nope Feb 15 19:40:57 it doesn't matter at all whether devices have been delivered yet Feb 15 19:41:11 I think moblin changed course all the time, so no time to outout product Feb 15 19:41:15 we are talking about future devices here Feb 15 19:41:34 and mgo is not at all like current breed of moblin Feb 15 19:41:45 one merger and a change of distro a gui toolkit per year can keep ppl busy.... Feb 15 19:41:49 and Feb 15 19:41:50 i know .. im just curious ... obv. maemo has gotten a lot of feedback from having devices out in consumers hands Feb 15 19:41:54 re Feb 15 19:42:03 ho Feb 15 19:42:06 etamme: there are a bunch of shipping netbooks Feb 15 19:42:13 Dell, MSI, Samsung, etc Feb 15 19:42:29 but mostly netbooks .. not phones or other touch based ui stuff Feb 15 19:42:35 there are ongoing projects with a number of vendors around TV, in vehicle infotainment and phones Feb 15 19:42:40 but none of them are shipping Feb 15 19:42:46 Heh, are the LiMo folks considered competition, given that their SDK is still vapourware, and no-one wants the handful of dumbphones running it? Feb 15 19:42:49 there are a few MIDs Feb 15 19:42:55 but I don't know which ones are shipping where Feb 15 19:42:57 (Mostly from Motorola, and a few obscure Japanese companies) Feb 15 19:43:01 etamme: remember that most of the ui work is coming from maemo Feb 15 19:43:05 vmlemon_: limo phones are real Feb 15 19:43:11 vmlemon_: considering their entire userspace is closed and you need to foot thousands just to see it... Feb 15 19:43:17 so .. what is coming from mobilin ? Feb 15 19:43:31 core stuff Feb 15 19:43:33 villemv: not quite... the Netbook UI will stay quite similar to what it is today Feb 15 19:43:39 vmlemon_: they just use linux in a different way, as the low level stuff Feb 15 19:43:40 i see rpm vs. deb obviously in the topic Feb 15 19:43:47 dirkhh: ahh... so that'll stay clutter + gtk? Feb 15 19:43:52 The LiMo folks are a bit of a joke Feb 15 19:44:02 Not sure how they can call themselves an "open platform" provider Feb 15 19:44:06 Moblin netbook UI is Clutter and MX Feb 15 19:44:09 no gtk Feb 15 19:44:12 vmlemon_: it's open to their members Feb 15 19:44:22 vmlemon_, limo = mobilin ? Feb 15 19:44:29 Microsoft is open to its employees? Feb 15 19:44:30 Nope, etamme Feb 15 19:45:04 ah okay . .just checked out their page Feb 15 19:45:07 alright... will that stuff stay in window manager space, or should you still write netbook apps with clutter + mx? Feb 15 19:45:20 Some wannabes that assimilated the LiPS project, and closed all their code and specifications up Feb 15 19:46:24 The few source files that exist out in the open all have "confidential and proprietary" headers Feb 15 19:46:39 (They're part of some shoddy PDFs that were hastily produced, before being dumped on their Website) Feb 15 19:47:05 Does anyone know if any languages besides C++ will be supported. I know maemo supported Python, will that continue? Feb 15 19:47:07 Mostly as part of a self-congratulatory, "Hey look! We can use Doxygen too!" thing Feb 15 19:47:22 samsnotunix: anything goes I suppose Feb 15 19:47:26 it's linux Feb 15 19:47:41 yeah, and pyside project is wrapping apis like crazy Feb 15 19:47:53 Alright sounds good. Feb 15 19:48:00 Is it going to use clutter? Feb 15 19:48:02 I don't know why people don't understand this. You can write in any langue that runs/compiles on ARM, and if there are bindings for stuff you need Feb 15 19:48:03 now, i'm going to ask a nasty question for you people Feb 15 19:48:07 Does Meego use Maemo GTK+? Feb 15 19:48:08 Dropping python would be rediculous, given there's PyQt Feb 15 19:48:08 Shapeshifter, what about for the modified ui toolkit stuff ... obv. we can get ruby-qt bindings .. but for whatever the new "hildon" is ... Feb 15 19:48:11 samsnotunix: of course python will be there Feb 15 19:48:26 Stskeeps: how is maemo gtk+ different than upstream gtk ? Feb 15 19:48:33 I thought this whole meego business was supposed to be all QT Feb 15 19:48:38 etamme: Produce new bindings for DUI Feb 15 19:48:39 arjan_: fairly, i think you need to ask around about that. Feb 15 19:48:47 ls Feb 15 19:48:52 anythign which isn't upstream gtk sounds like a mistake ;) Feb 15 19:48:53 arjan_: it is modified and many maemo GTK/hildon apps depend on stuff from it Feb 15 19:48:55 oops, wrong terminal :P Feb 15 19:48:58 and a FAIL in getting patches upstream Feb 15 19:48:59 arjan_: In subtle, hideous ways Feb 15 19:49:14 arjan_: big big fail. i hated it, but it was needed to get maemo GTK/hildon apps working properly. Feb 15 19:49:21 * javispedro is toying with h-i-m and a xlib app at the moment Feb 15 19:49:29 pain... real pain. Feb 15 19:49:38 kill it with fire! Feb 15 19:50:17 arjan_: which was surprising to me since someone announced that gtk+ as framework in maemo would have longer timeframe, as there would have to be a lot of vodka and sauna involved to get any sane architect to accept that :) Feb 15 19:51:36 sad day to see the debian dumped Feb 15 19:51:45 we had that discussion already :P Feb 15 19:51:54 Does anyone know when the first Technical Steering Group meeting will be? Feb 15 19:51:54 Stskeeps: I thought maemo 6 was qt already btw Feb 15 19:51:54 (in the 9 hours this channel has been alive) Feb 15 19:52:00 oh... any progress ;) Feb 15 19:52:08 hi Feb 15 19:52:08 maemo 6 is qt all the way, yes Feb 15 19:52:10 arjan_: yes, and that's the sane direction Feb 15 19:52:59 whoever made these engineering decisions must be killed with fire and pensioned off immediately. Feb 15 19:53:46 flightplan: the other way around might be easier Feb 15 19:55:08 pinchartl: whatever, these guys must be fired sooner or later imo... Feb 15 19:55:27 flightplan: you don't like the change to qt in maemo6 I take it? Feb 15 19:56:20 Whatever gave you that idea, arjan? :P Feb 15 19:56:30 arjan_: myriad of users just hate your topic... Feb 15 19:56:43 normally torture is reserved for and by US politicians ;) Feb 15 19:56:54 feel free to come up with a better topic, i don't speak for meego Feb 15 19:56:54 :P Feb 15 19:57:03 is there going to be clutter - qt integration now? Feb 15 19:57:12 flightplan: qt? I did not realize qt was this hated in maemo Feb 15 19:57:15 Aww, I think most of the time people complain mostly because they know the *other* framework/language/management/toilet-paper better then what is going to be used. I don't know RPM and traditionally everyone bashes it. Yeah okay, I have to learn it. I know Qt better then Gtk, so I like it better. If it's the other way around, live with it. Feb 15 19:57:47 Is selling my Nokia N900 now a wise choice? Feb 15 19:57:56 All of this is not a big issue. Much more important for example is, to provide good APIs for whatever is going to be used. Feb 15 19:57:59 ... yeah .. it looks like a fair amount of lashback in comments on maemo talk and on the developer part of meego.... i think this was a poorly orchestrated announcement for sure. Feb 15 19:58:01 I know that moblin relied heavily on clutter-gtk integration so are there going to be qt-clutter bindings Feb 15 19:58:15 etamme: the community feels a bit steamrolled Feb 15 19:58:18 samsnotunix: moblin doesn't use gtk Feb 15 19:58:19 okaysir: depends. now much are you asking? :-) Feb 15 19:58:22 okaysir: i wouldn't say Feb 15 19:58:23 Stskeeps, yeah for sure Feb 15 19:58:24 okaysir: yes. to me. I'll pay you USD 10. or even 15. Feb 15 19:58:29 16! Feb 15 19:58:36 arjan_: I see you have issues to realize what exactly users hate with your toy... that is going to be a constant user rage upon your "engineering"... Feb 15 19:58:54 arjan_: I don't think qt is that hated in maemo Feb 15 19:59:02 well, every time you engage open source community with some tech, you will get some whine Feb 15 19:59:10 flightplan: maybe you need to articulate your issue better then.. Feb 15 19:59:15 "why didn't you use my pet project"? Feb 15 19:59:16 arjan_ moblin most definitely has bindings with gtk Feb 15 19:59:20 okaysir, I'd say it's a worse choice than it was a week ago, actually. Feb 15 19:59:24 i dont have any hate for the technical stuff .... just not happy with nokia for "steamrolling" the community .. like Stskeeps said Feb 15 19:59:26 samsnotunix: sure, and nothing uses them Feb 15 19:59:28 Lol, I'm just going to wait for further news during the summer or so about my phone and then decide.... Feb 15 19:59:44 etamme: i think it is sadly needed to electroshock the community a bit, to shape up and mature Feb 15 19:59:46 okaysir, since MeeGo seems like it'll be making Maemo 6 more open than it already is. Feb 15 20:00:04 arjan_ nothing that is made specifically for moblin but there are a lot of apps that work under moblin that aren't made specifically for them Feb 15 20:00:16 steamrolling? Feb 15 20:00:19 samsnotunix: and those don't use clutter at all Feb 15 20:00:24 Yeah, plus the phone does have the hardware to run MeeGo, since it'll be open source Feb 15 20:00:29 arjan_: have a look at your meego-dev list if you are still lost, then probably no one can help anymore ... Feb 15 20:00:49 arjan_ I'm mostly worried because GNOME 3 is doing heavy integration with clutter and it uses GTK Feb 15 20:00:57 anyone know whether intel will increase/decrease the staff working on moblin now? Feb 15 20:00:58 Stskeeps, I dunno, I'm feeling incredibly demotivated at the moment. Feb 15 20:01:08 it seems intel was very fast in ramping moblin up to speed Feb 15 20:01:45 villemv: I'd be surprised if both nokia and intel wouldn't ramp up Feb 15 20:02:01 well, I'm pretty sure Nokia would ramp up, less so about Intel :-) Feb 15 20:02:32 GeneralAntilles: give it time and let it process Feb 15 20:02:35 if that is the case for Intel as well, this should be good news for everybody Feb 15 20:02:48 yeah, "morning is wiser than evening" and all that Feb 15 20:03:26 arjan_ regardless of gtk-clutter since QT is the official toolkit for meego will there be a way of integrating qt and clutter. As of right now I don't know of any way of doing that. Feb 15 20:03:50 i'm pretty excited about meego ;d Feb 15 20:04:05 samsnotunix: afaik there's a bunch of discussions on that; I don't tihnk the dust has settled Feb 15 20:04:17 arjan_ ah I see. Feb 15 20:04:19 this is one of those things that is easier to do now that things are announced and everyone knows about it Feb 15 20:04:24 rather than with a small group of people only Feb 15 20:04:45 * thiago_home finds MeeGo news on Financial Times Feb 15 20:04:48 when do you guys think it will be released? Feb 15 20:04:49 well, clutter won't help with graphicsview based apps I think Feb 15 20:04:50 arjan_ that was one of the things I liked about moblin was the clutter interface. I don't see meego as being as good unless they integrate clutter. Feb 15 20:04:55 thiago_home: my dad told me he saw news about meego today Feb 15 20:05:05 the only news coming out of MWC on FT Feb 15 20:05:12 melik: the first release is somewhere in the 2nd quarter Feb 15 20:05:20 melik: so that's in a few months Feb 15 20:05:21 so we stole the conference, yay Feb 15 20:05:22 arjan_: but code release before that? Feb 15 20:05:39 yeah we're working hard on getting an alpha like thing out Feb 15 20:05:50 arjan_: looking forward to it :) Feb 15 20:06:05 thats great arjan_ :D Feb 15 20:06:08 try to leak something like find / of your workspace before that ;-) Feb 15 20:06:14 arjan_: will meego run on N900? Feb 15 20:06:26 I do not know exactly which arm platforms are planned Feb 15 20:06:30 shouldn't be too hard with the builder Feb 15 20:06:31 we need something new to chew on this channel, rpm vs. deb will get old soon Feb 15 20:06:34 that's more a question for someone in the n900 team Feb 15 20:06:39 that does seem to be the question of the moment.. Feb 15 20:06:52 the issues isn't the base os, but the specific n900 drivers Feb 15 20:07:10 rpm is a lot better than it used to be but deb has such wide support. That is 90% of the argument Feb 15 20:07:13 villemv: is that how you solve your technical problems - by getting them old? Feb 15 20:07:26 villemv: just be prepared for more questions like it, the maemo community has a lot of vocal members Feb 15 20:07:40 I thought they're all here ;-) Feb 15 20:07:46 :-) Feb 15 20:07:47 the builder can even do hybrid packages for deb and rpm - so ppl, calm down Feb 15 20:07:47 * wiretapped clears his throat Feb 15 20:07:54 given "devices and chipsets" was explicitly mentioned in June 2009 Intel/Nokia announcement as focus (along with "open-source mobile software"), i wouldn't be surprised to see a shift away from ARM soon anyway Feb 15 20:07:57 well, we are still missing the "OMG n900 sucks I'll buy nexusone" Feb 15 20:08:11 Honestly, if they have integration where there sdk can make the rpm's it shouldn't make that much difference. Feb 15 20:08:28 making rpms (or debs) for a pakcage that uses autoconf is trivial Feb 15 20:08:38 specbuilder / spectacle abstract all the actual packaging from the developer Feb 15 20:08:41 on the rpm side Feb 15 20:08:41 Will projects like Goblin and Ubuntu Moblin Remix transfer to meego or will they fork? Feb 15 20:08:52 and afaik th e debian side has similar autopackage tools Feb 15 20:08:59 samsnotunix: ubuntu moblin remix is dead, no? Feb 15 20:09:13 arjan_: great, deb it is then ;) Feb 15 20:09:14 I used it not that long ago. I didn't think it was dead. Feb 15 20:09:23 Goblin isn't though. Feb 15 20:10:04 9.10 had a Moblin Remix version. I don't know the plans for 10.04 though. Feb 15 20:10:28 i saw a pretty nice suse moblin ad on youtube Feb 15 20:10:40 samsnotunix: What's Goblin Feb 15 20:10:49 suse moblin version Feb 15 20:10:50 knuty: suse's moblin i think Feb 15 20:10:59 melik: yeah Feb 15 20:11:19 melik: thanks :) Feb 15 20:11:29 i wish arch linux had moblin packages :( Feb 15 20:12:11 melik: It doesn't? I thought the arch community had just about everything between pacman repos and AUR Feb 15 20:12:21 arjan: meego claims to be hardware agnostic, why are the drivers a concern? Feb 15 20:12:23 moblin is not just a few packages Feb 15 20:12:31 rdm: because without drivers, your device does not do much Feb 15 20:12:41 see, here is something i don't understand, where are the applications for moblin? Feb 15 20:12:42 rdm: I do not know if all the n900 drivers are part of the kernel.org kernel etc Feb 15 20:12:55 moblin is an OS, which includes a GUI Feb 15 20:13:00 melik: lots of stuff in AUR Feb 15 20:13:02 but you can't just take a few GUI packages and have "moblin" Feb 15 20:13:03 Guest61435: what d you mean with hybrid packages? Feb 15 20:13:19 melik: e.g. aur/moblin-panel-applications-git 20090905-1 Feb 15 20:13:28 arjan_: no they're not Feb 15 20:13:52 arjan_ no, moblin is not just a couple of packages, but things like Ubuntu Moblin and Goblin show that the ui can be thrown on top of other distros Feb 15 20:13:53 samsnotunix: It's uncertaint what GNU/Linux distributions will do. There are many netbook alternatives, as the end of this Debian Edu Whislis shows http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu/Wishlist Feb 15 20:14:11 arjan_: many drivers (or kernel modifications) are not in the mainline kernel (yet) Feb 15 20:15:00 About none are for n900 I think. Feb 15 20:15:13 is it a license or a technical issue? Feb 15 20:15:15 are the kernel mods important? why not use stock n900 kernel? Feb 15 20:15:42 rdm: I suspect it's a "nobody bothered yet" issue ;( Feb 15 20:15:42 rdm: technical. it takes a lot of time to write stable drivers, and it takes even longer to make them clean enough for kernel.org Feb 15 20:15:47 flightplan: make a package in the builder, add a spec for rpm, a tarball , a diff and a .dsc for debian (and use the same src tarball) and the system will be able to build rpm and deb from same src tarball Feb 15 20:15:59 pinchartl: that's a red herring; kernel.org takes anything that compiles Feb 15 20:16:05 if your code does not compile you have bigger issues Feb 15 20:16:15 meeg: that's a relatively old kernel though.. Feb 15 20:16:22 arjan_: no it doesn't. trust me :-) Feb 15 20:16:35 Shapeshifter: yeah, there all out of date :( Feb 15 20:16:35 pinchartl: I know.. I do quite a bit of kernel work Feb 15 20:16:49 pinchartl: that's why we made drivers/staging a year and a half ago at the kernel summit Feb 15 20:16:52 arjan_ I just hope any Nokia kernel driver mods don't go the way of android and get abandoned for inactive development Feb 15 20:17:03 pinchartl, I think Greg KH has proved you wrong several times... Feb 15 20:17:08 only way to solve that is by catching them before. Feb 15 20:17:14 arjan_: drivers are not too difficult to get into drivers/staging. framework modifications are much more difficult Feb 15 20:17:29 i read android prob was technical incompatibility Feb 15 20:17:37 Guest61435: and both rpm and deb repositories will be available to the users to get? I really hope that you will not automate the packaging process? Feb 15 20:17:39 pinchartl: sure... and that's why it's critical to develop close to upstream ;-) Feb 15 20:17:40 samsnotunix: After participating in the Debian community for many years, also knowing other top contributors to other distributions. One thing is certain. Other UI designs are needed when using mobile pc's and Internet tablets ++ Feb 15 20:17:57 arjan_: can't be much closer, really :-) Feb 15 20:18:11 flightplan: in different repos Feb 15 20:18:15 arjan_: well, sure it takes it for staging, but to keep it there... Feb 15 20:18:26 sure you need to work on it Feb 15 20:18:39 as long as someone cares at least somewhat staging keeps it Feb 15 20:18:56 knuty: I don't know how to respond to that exactly are you saying that it doesn't matter if moblin is removed from other projects because there are other ui's for netbooks? Feb 15 20:18:57 Guest61435: could you please clarify that it is not rpm only to be supported in your FAQ? Feb 15 20:19:13 no Feb 15 20:19:16 arjan_: and I would not consider staging to be really upstream... Feb 15 20:19:29 samsnotunix: Most GNU/Linux distributions first introduce those technologies when other have done the heavy lifting. E.g Sugar Desktop on One Laptop per Child (just to mention one example). Feb 15 20:19:31 i spoke about the builder, not meego Feb 15 20:19:38 andres: it's at least a few miles closer ;) Feb 15 20:21:02 Guest61435: okay then. where is your builder meant to work - at any build farm daemons or at users devices? Feb 15 20:21:12 knuty: True other people have done the heavylifting but my question was whether moblin side projects would convert to meego or fork moblin. I think what you are saying is that they won't do the heavy lifting themselves? Meaning they are more likely to convert to meego because it is easier than developing moblin themselves? Feb 15 20:21:52 well forking would be insanity Feb 15 20:22:09 samsnotunix: http://akademy2009.kde.org/conference/papers/SouzaAD-Akademy2009.pdf Feb 15 20:22:10 doing a whole os as a fork... needs more than an afternoon here or there Feb 15 20:22:38 samsnotunix: I don't know. You need to ask the Moblin team about that. Feb 15 20:22:45 I understood that once the hardware compatibility layer is written, then meego would do the rest. I still don't get why is difficult to commit for N900. If it is pain for it, it would be a pain for any other device, so what is the point of the platform? Feb 15 20:22:51 arjan_: I've been working on V4L2 extensions for about 6 months now. and there's still more work needed. we hope to get them ready for this year's Linux Plumbers Conference Feb 15 20:23:08 rdm: someone needs to put them in the kernel Feb 15 20:23:23 rdm: that's what you always need to do to support a system anyway Feb 15 20:23:33 rdm: I do not know, nor can I speak for Nokia, if they want to do that or not Feb 15 20:23:42 I'd like to see it done (have an n900 myself) Feb 15 20:23:42 Yes I know doing a whole os as a fork is hard. I am talking about whether or not the moblin development and especially the moblin ui development will continue now that there is no longer support from intel. Feb 15 20:23:46 arjan_: the situation is that there's often a need for quick hacks to meet the deadlines. that's where the device-specific kernel starts diverging. cleaning everything up and submitting it upstream takes time Feb 15 20:24:00 samsnotunix: the moblin UI is now the meego UI for netbooks ;) Feb 15 20:24:10 pinchartl: yep.. been there done that. Feb 15 20:24:20 pinchartl: and have the scars to show for it ;) Feb 15 20:24:20 jku_: pinchartl: iirc ... Greg KH came with a pretty clear message why the Android stuff got removed from 2.6.33 ... nobody cared for the drivers and came with updates .... http://www.kroah.com/log/linux/android-kernel-problems.html Feb 15 20:24:39 we need to just disallow deadlines ;-) Feb 15 20:24:50 dazo: linux still loves the nexus :) Feb 15 20:24:53 err, linus Feb 15 20:25:00 arjan: will it still use clutter? or will it be switched to qt? Feb 15 20:25:07 rdm: didn't they say projected release in Q2 2010? is there not planned to be an N900 release included in that? Feb 15 20:25:16 samsnotunix: the actual window manager etc still uses clutter Feb 15 20:25:23 why in meego site is a n900 in front page? Feb 15 20:25:24 :P Feb 15 20:25:24 on netbooks. Feb 15 20:25:34 dazo: exactly. I can't speak for Nokia, but I know that I'm not repeating the same mistake with the V4L2 changes I'm working on. they're developed in close cooperation with the community, but that takes more time than developing them in-house without caring about the community feedback Feb 15 20:25:38 samsnotunix: What I understand of future UI's for mobile pc's and mobile Internet devices, are that they really need more touch features, more animations and other nifty design features, which removes the desktop restrictions which we know from the 35 year old Xerox Park destkop design (copied by Apple and later Microsoft, and then the rest) Feb 15 20:25:42 av500: yeah, but that doesn't mean that unmaintained code should be allowed to survive in the source tree Feb 15 20:25:52 dazo: I know :) Feb 15 20:25:59 arjan: so it will be like how GNOME shell uses clutter for the WM but uses the gtk toolkit for drawing widgets/ Feb 15 20:26:03 *? Feb 15 20:26:23 something like that; not that I know much abuot gnome 3.0 Feb 15 20:26:30 other than that it doesn't really exist yet ;) Feb 15 20:26:46 GNOME 3.0 == One big "Do Something" button Feb 15 20:26:46 it does, just apt_get it Feb 15 20:26:48 * vmlemon_ hides Feb 15 20:27:12 gnome-shell that is Feb 15 20:27:42 like KDE: Plasma uses Graphics View and the rest uses plain QWidget Feb 15 20:28:13 hi thiago_home Feb 15 20:28:21 okay thanks for the answers. nothing will come out of that as I see it. Feb 15 20:28:22 Yeah I am using gnome-shell right now on Fedora. So will meego become a sort of gnome shell (on the back end not the actual design) with QT rather than GTK? Feb 15 20:28:37 samsnotunix: no. Meego replaces Fedora. Feb 15 20:28:43 I think the biggest gain from the meego merge thing will be intel working to get it into all these different platforms (media phones, tv's, car computers, etc) Feb 15 20:28:49 I didn't say anthing about fedora Feb 15 20:28:52 sure, you can run the Meego apps on Fedora, though. Feb 15 20:28:57 except that I use it Feb 15 20:29:02 * andres thinks it would be sensible for nokia to pay 1-2 kern devs to develop for the n900 just to get rid of the whining and bad press Feb 15 20:29:09 I am not worried about fedora I was just saying I'm using it Feb 15 20:29:29 andres: it's also about maintaining the entire distro integration mechanism Feb 15 20:29:32 samsnotunix: moblin isn't fedora, meego isn't fedora ;) Feb 15 20:29:39 andres, stskeeps already volunteered ;) Feb 15 20:29:39 I am asking if meego ui will be using a clutter wm and draw the widgets themselves with qt Feb 15 20:29:48 which is where MeeGo comes to help. Sharing the infrastructure with other projects helps minimise the cost for it. Feb 15 20:29:50 ARG FORGET I SAID FEDORA!!!! Feb 15 20:30:05 samsnotunix: Mr Hat is coming for you! Feb 15 20:30:06 samsnotunix, but saying "meego becomes sort of gnome shell" doesn't make sense either... Feb 15 20:30:11 samsnotunix: something like that; I don't know where exactly the line will be between clutter/qt and how there is integration Feb 15 20:30:15 thiago_home: Cant really follow how that relates to my statement? ;-) Feb 15 20:30:18 some of that is "we'll have to see how it works out" Feb 15 20:30:28 I said on the backend because they both use clutter for the window manager Feb 15 20:30:34 andres: never mind then Feb 15 20:30:55 Maemo 6 won't use clutter for WM, AFAIK Feb 15 20:31:00 I know it isn't going to look like gnome shell I am talking about the fact that it will be two different clutter based window managers one that uses qt and one that uses gtk Feb 15 20:31:07 andres: it's not whining/bad press, it's factual closed source stuff Feb 15 20:31:11 but the question is kind of valid, from which distribution will the majority of the packages come from? Fedora didn't have a real ARM port until very recently. Feb 15 20:31:15 samsnotunix, we're not dropping clutter/Mx or Gtk, so widgets will draw with whatever toolkit the developer uses Feb 15 20:31:16 andres: in the N900, they just moved it into userland Feb 15 20:31:17 wm doesn't use either Feb 15 20:31:22 Synthaxx: from MeeGo. Feb 15 20:31:24 Ah I see. Feb 15 20:31:30 Synthaxx: meego is its own distribution. Feb 15 20:31:43 alright, so real bottoms up Feb 15 20:31:44 thiago: meego will have different window managers anyway Feb 15 20:31:45 luke-jr: I severely doubt that that will be impossible with meego. Feb 15 20:31:53 arjan_: probably, yeah Feb 15 20:31:53 that's good Feb 15 20:31:58 it's not like you automatically want the same window manager for phone and netbook Feb 15 20:32:03 andres: I doubt MeeGo will fix anything Feb 15 20:32:05 just because of the very different way you use it Feb 15 20:32:16 So there are different ui's for meego on different devices? Feb 15 20:32:20 arjan_: I want the same WM for handheld/phone and desktop Feb 15 20:32:37 samsnotunix: yes. the goal is to have a different experience Feb 15 20:32:39 samsnotunix: http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture Feb 15 20:32:45 luke-jr, then you possibly haven't really thought about the differences... Feb 15 20:32:53 samsnotunix: but a 3.5" touch phone and a 12" netbook are just very different in how you use them Feb 15 20:32:59 i am so sad for maemo :( Feb 15 20:33:10 samsnotunix: spot on Feb 15 20:33:36 I would love to see some apple style bundle support on meego Feb 15 20:33:40 jku_: I use KDE 4.3 on my handheld right now. Feb 15 20:33:45 samsnotunix: because it's getting an infusion of energy? Another company to back it up? Feb 15 20:33:48 erm Feb 15 20:33:49 sachin007: ^^^ Feb 15 20:33:58 sachin007: or because of the name change? Feb 15 20:34:06 Intel + Nokia will OWN Feb 15 20:34:09 from the link that was just sent out it looks like the clutter part won't be in the netbook or handheld ux is that right? Feb 15 20:34:12 maemo has been so dear to me since 2006 Feb 15 20:34:14 jku_: it's just a matter of configuration Feb 15 20:34:21 i just cant believe it is gone one day i wake up Feb 15 20:34:25 :( Feb 15 20:34:30 i would take m5 like ui on tablet Feb 15 20:34:33 sachin007: then you need to wake up. It's not gone. Feb 15 20:34:41 luke-jr, we'll have to agree to disagree :) Feb 15 20:34:44 sachin007: it's evolved into something new. Feb 15 20:35:00 i know.. i am just sad for the name... not for the os Feb 15 20:35:01 the only thing that will change is the UI Feb 15 20:35:13 + NEW FEATURES Feb 15 20:35:23 and the codebase, kernel, community ;) Feb 15 20:35:27 samsnotunix, what link is that? Feb 15 20:35:38 the kernel ? Feb 15 20:35:39 and ui will change anyway in m6 Feb 15 20:35:43 So will we have another maemo 5 device? Feb 15 20:35:49 jku_: http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture it says the will be there for compatibility Feb 15 20:35:59 its not gonna be a linux kernel ? Feb 15 20:36:12 but the window manager won't be clutter on the netbook version from this developers site. Feb 15 20:36:13 so the point of the architecture, for those who missed that, is that application writers for the different devices have a common API set Feb 15 20:36:19 of course it is Feb 15 20:36:33 there is a box that says "area specific UI pieces" or something Feb 15 20:36:33 shiznebit: yes it is, just not the same one as on M5 Feb 15 20:36:39 * arjan_ forgot what exact words we used) Feb 15 20:36:56 Parts of the meego architecture description read like a readily filled out bullshit bingo sheet ;-) Feb 15 20:37:04 so where is the intel community.... please give me a hu Feb 15 20:37:05 hug Feb 15 20:37:06 samsnotunix, I owuld be extremely surprised if that happened... Feb 15 20:37:15 sachin007: thanks for the hug ;) Feb 15 20:37:24 sachin007: i've been searching for the actual users... Feb 15 20:37:31 samsnotunix, where did you get the WM part? Feb 15 20:37:33 so what exactly is intel adding to the mix ? Hardware ? Feb 15 20:37:39 but at least we can port those from maemo ;) Feb 15 20:37:40 last year I used moblin Feb 15 20:37:50 shiznebit: bunch of people, bunch of OS work, whole lot of tools etc etc Feb 15 20:38:02 is there any released harware using moblin? Feb 15 20:38:04 and even kept it installed for some months Feb 15 20:38:07 sachin007: yes Feb 15 20:38:08 i would use moblin if it worked without atom cpu ;) Feb 15 20:38:13 but never booted it again... Feb 15 20:38:15 which one? Feb 15 20:38:22 ubuntu was faster Feb 15 20:38:23 unclewerner: same here Feb 15 20:38:25 sachin007: samsung, msi, dell netbooks Feb 15 20:38:33 tried the 2.1 in a VM Feb 15 20:38:39 don't use moblin in a wm Feb 15 20:38:41 jku_ the site says the toolkit and the UX will be mainly based off qt and clutter is only mentioned for compatibility Feb 15 20:38:43 wm not doing 3d will kill you Feb 15 20:38:47 which one is the latest and greatest? Feb 15 20:39:01 samsnotunix: That's right Feb 15 20:39:03 2.1 Feb 15 20:39:30 arjan_: s/wm/vm/ Feb 15 20:39:33 I had moblin on a real atom netbook Feb 15 20:39:37 arjan_: what distro(s) will meego be based on? Feb 15 20:39:40 yet it was slower than karmic Feb 15 20:39:42 knuty so then what kind of wm would it use? Feb 15 20:39:44 what a shame Feb 15 20:40:00 arjan_: didn't really matter, the lack of applications was more of a problem than the speed of the interface Feb 15 20:40:04 what is the latest hardware using moblin 2.1... i want to see how moblin ish Feb 15 20:40:11 "scalalable, framework, security, role based access control, wide range, flexible, updatable, key pieces, software stack" - all in two relatively short sentences ;-) Feb 15 20:40:17 knuty: what's right? I'm willing to bet the netbook wm is based on clutter :) Feb 15 20:40:20 intel is also bringing lots of expertise in graphics Feb 15 20:40:27 and i like something with a good community Feb 15 20:40:36 hence ubuntu/maemo 5 Feb 15 20:41:01 samsnotunix: good question. Some devices will not have the traditional WM as we know it from Gnome, KDE and other Linux desktop alternatives. Feb 15 20:41:08 * E-WolfShade refuses to comment @ jku_ Feb 15 20:41:14 Wait, no Feb 15 20:41:17 @ thiago_home Feb 15 20:41:20 thiago_home: intel gfx is the best, but you need at least dual core Feb 15 20:41:25 knuty but the netbook version has to have some kind of wm doesn't it? Feb 15 20:41:26 samsnotunix: others will use a WM Feb 15 20:41:51 unclewerner: I was actually thinking of X.org & clutter Feb 15 20:41:56 there's a lot of expertise there Feb 15 20:41:58 knuty: I understand if the handheld doesn't have a traditional wm but what about the netbook Feb 15 20:42:25 Maemo depends on X11, so having the people who develop that in the community is extremely beneficial Feb 15 20:42:40 yes those xorg drivers from intel are very stable and eat up constantly cpu power... Feb 15 20:43:24 samsnotunix: It depends Feb 15 20:43:29 at least they have drivers Feb 15 20:43:37 unclewerner: odd. Feb 15 20:43:37 don't get me started on radeon cards... Feb 15 20:43:49 unclewerner: I have been looking at graphics performance on intel hw lately Feb 15 20:43:57 the drivers don't hit CPU unless you hit some bad software fallback Feb 15 20:44:05 and yes I had to fix one such case, but I only hit one Feb 15 20:44:10 was easy to fix too ;-) Feb 15 20:44:36 and Qt definitely needs to avoid those too Feb 15 20:44:37 samsnotunix: Since MeeGo are running X, several WM options are availiable. I don't got any roadmap info on that, and MeeGo is scarce on details Feb 15 20:44:45 well the drivers got some bad press from jaunty Feb 15 20:44:46 What I know is this: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2010/02/10/a-lighthouse-with-windows/ Feb 15 20:44:51 Does moblin have multi tasking with a task swithcer? Feb 15 20:44:59 Qt needs to avoid the SW paths and what better than Intel people who know what they're talking about? Feb 15 20:45:33 knuty how will different wm's affect cross platform compatibility? Feb 15 20:45:34 knuty: Lighthouse is not X11 Feb 15 20:45:48 sachin007: on netbook> yes Feb 15 20:45:48 will TI contribute to the drivers for their omap4? Did they do it for omap3 for instance? Feb 15 20:45:57 yep Feb 15 20:46:01 rdm: that is my assumption that they will Feb 15 20:46:25 yes, they will, they even promised to have omap4 in linux-arm when it ships.... Feb 15 20:47:24 I wonder how much force was behind getting to that decision... Feb 15 20:47:36 probably not that much Feb 15 20:47:49 a lot of omap processors end up in the most diverse of devices Feb 15 20:47:53 Considering its TI I would not be that sure... Feb 15 20:48:01 of course, stuff like the SGX 3d core is not open Feb 15 20:48:06 wait TI is releasing OpenSource Drivers ? Feb 15 20:48:10 but that is the same with intel.... Feb 15 20:48:17 shiznebit: yes, a lot of them lately Feb 15 20:48:36 you mean the awesome DSP will be opensourced ? Feb 15 20:48:46 the DSP is documented Feb 15 20:48:51 SGX kernel driver is oss Feb 15 20:48:55 you are free to write your SW Feb 15 20:48:59 av500, not the IVA part Feb 15 20:49:03 Stskeeps: yes, the glue to the binary blob Feb 15 20:49:17 ShadowJK: well, some of it was released Feb 15 20:49:19 thiago_home: Is X11 required on MeeGo? Feb 15 20:49:24 knuty: yes Feb 15 20:49:38 av500: yes, i know, i have gotten a little too intimate with those :/ Feb 15 20:49:43 ShadowJK: the IVA is the DSP + HW accells, the Dsp is public, most of the hw accell too Feb 15 20:50:14 but given the small amount of ppl that actuallly attempt to code for the dsp, I'd say that does not matter.... Feb 15 20:50:36 i thought the DSP was under a NDA Feb 15 20:50:40 no Feb 15 20:50:45 well with OMAP3 Feb 15 20:50:49 no Feb 15 20:50:50 thiago_home: thanks: I also cought this one: http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process Feb 15 20:51:09 http://dspgateway.sourceforge.net/pub/index.php Feb 15 20:51:10 shiznebit: what is not open is e.g. DSPBios Feb 15 20:51:18 but you are free to write your own dsp code Feb 15 20:51:34 Am I blind, or am I missing the "Edit" link (after logging in) on http://wiki.meego.com/Maemo_and_Moblin_community_assets? Feb 15 20:51:53 hi Feb 15 20:52:03 wiki is restricted still Feb 15 20:52:04 anyone know if meego will be supported on N900? Feb 15 20:52:06 samsnotunix wrote: how will different wm's affect cross platform compatibility? Feb 15 20:52:22 samsnotunix: I cant say Feb 15 20:52:26 meeg: ah, it seems to be called "view source" Feb 15 20:52:31 hope it is :( Feb 15 20:52:31 Oh, no. Feb 15 20:52:34 Bollocks. Feb 15 20:52:39 apps don't need to mess with wm Feb 15 20:52:50 true Feb 15 20:52:53 will SGX recompile the drivers for the new kernel ? That is the question Feb 15 20:53:00 but sometimes the WM has extra, undocumented or incompatible features Feb 15 20:53:09 shiznebit: the drivers do not depend on the kernel Feb 15 20:53:11 the MAemo5 WM has some extra hints for the stacked windows, for rotation, etc. Feb 15 20:53:16 the drivers talk to the sgx core only Feb 15 20:53:18 shiznebit: SGX drivers work fine on .32. We illustrated that on zoo2m Feb 15 20:53:23 the kernel/fb related part is open Feb 15 20:53:49 av500: the thing it does depend on is power management setting, but that's another topic.. Feb 15 20:53:52 :P Feb 15 20:53:57 Stskeeps: well Feb 15 20:53:59 :) Feb 15 20:55:44 hi all Feb 15 20:58:03 * Jaco2k wonders how many N900 users are sitting here chewing their nails... :) Feb 15 20:58:20 many Feb 15 20:58:30 if they are then they have far too much time on their hands Feb 15 20:58:40 the nail chewing hurts my concentration, keep it down please... Feb 15 20:58:55 I think the wait will be looooong Feb 15 20:59:05 wait for the code Feb 15 20:59:14 ah, but thst'd what irc is best for - sitting around watching while doing something else completely ;) Feb 15 20:59:19 I have scratched mine down as one of the top #3 bad purchases I made Feb 15 20:59:30 #1, ä2? Feb 15 20:59:32 this move can either make or break Feb 15 20:59:32 #1, #2? Feb 15 20:59:38 will the meego kernel be on sync with the official linux kernel? Feb 15 20:59:49 yes Feb 15 20:59:56 well, mine is in top 5 best I've ever made, so ;p Feb 15 21:00:05 meego project has a strong "go upstream, follow upstream" kernel policy Feb 15 21:00:13 I have a love-hate relationship with mine ;) Feb 15 21:00:36 * Jaffa wonders if Stskeeps is going to eat at all today. Feb 15 21:00:46 * Jaffa also wonders if he should drink more wine when he's home alone :-) Feb 15 21:01:02 MeeGo says "yeeeeeesss". Feb 15 21:01:02 Jaffa: boxed? Feb 15 21:01:10 Jaffa: ate when i disappeared for an hour or two Feb 15 21:01:10 :P Feb 15 21:01:18 Jaffa, I'm about ready to finish off the bottle in the fridge. Feb 15 21:01:25 arjan_: that will be a fun adventure on ARM devices. Feb 15 21:01:41 solarion: I'm not *that* unclassy. Bottle of 2009 Kumula, shiraz/cabernet-sauvignon. Will be nicer tomorrow, bit young tonight. Feb 15 21:01:48 Stskeeps: abuot time the arm guys get onboard with linux ;) Feb 15 21:01:51 Jaffa: then go for it Feb 15 21:02:03 it's not like the kernel process hasb't been the same for .. how long now ? :-) Feb 15 21:02:07 Stskeeps: You disappeared? ;-) Feb 15 21:02:10 solarion: I'll blame you ;-) Feb 15 21:02:11 besides quality or kwalitee of boxed wine vs bottle is quesitonable Feb 15 21:02:20 Jaffa: I will accept the blame for drinking tasty wine Feb 15 21:02:21 solarion: True, there's some good boxed wines now Feb 15 21:02:27 arjan_: that said, it is good to encourage mainline contribution Feb 15 21:02:28 ubt only if it's *tasty* Feb 15 21:02:34 solarion: It's tasty. Feb 15 21:02:40 * Jaffa might go for some brie with it. Feb 15 21:02:44 Also, Inebriation is in the class of things which are notmyfault Feb 15 21:02:50 decadence Feb 15 21:02:50 mmm Feb 15 21:02:55 * ian_brasil thinks there will be a lot of bug eyed mobile devs drinking tonight Feb 15 21:03:02 bah Feb 15 21:03:03 ian_brasil: heh, true Feb 15 21:03:16 a glass of red wine with hacking is good stuff Feb 15 21:03:25 maemo-users and parts of talk.maemo.org are *hilarious*, even before the booze. Feb 15 21:03:32 indeed Feb 15 21:03:46 been watching it all day, but oddly didn't feel like flaming ;p Feb 15 21:03:48 (and that was before the MeeGo announcement ;-)) Feb 15 21:03:48 or bottle+browsing Feb 15 21:03:58 * solarion fondly recalls doing classical electrodynamics by candlelight with red wine and classical music (streaming over the Internet...) Feb 15 21:03:58 meeg: I might end up bottle+flaming, TBH Feb 15 21:04:14 solarion: Sounds good, apartfrom the "electrodynamics" part. Feb 15 21:04:19 Well, a toast to kicking ass in mobile Linux! Feb 15 21:04:24 Jaffa: electrodynamics are fun Feb 15 21:04:30 jackson, however, is not Feb 15 21:05:18 A toast to the new LIMO! Feb 15 21:05:24 lol Feb 15 21:05:30 Err, *cough* ;-) Feb 15 21:05:36 LinuxIntelMobilenOkia Feb 15 21:05:45 make sense Feb 15 21:06:01 maybe they chose today to announce because it is carnaval in Brazil? Feb 15 21:06:07 av500: It's the new conspiracy! Feb 15 21:06:16 and a holiday in the USA i believe Feb 15 21:06:37 Jaffa: I guess so Feb 15 21:06:53 Bah, maemo-developers is turning into the new -users. Feb 15 21:07:05 MeeGo causes community degradation. Fact! Feb 15 21:07:42 president's day in US. Feb 15 21:09:02 we need a new geek channel where you get flamed to death if you do not know all the gcc compiler options Feb 15 21:09:21 hey ..we have moblin-dev ;) Feb 15 21:09:32 -fkeep-programmers-inline Feb 15 21:10:18 why does jaffa's mail show up as meego-dev@meego.com? :P Feb 15 21:10:27 moblin uses gcc? Feb 15 21:10:29 -fisnt-it-bedtime-in-europe Feb 15 21:10:41 instead of intel compiler Feb 15 21:10:43 meeg: good question ;) Feb 15 21:10:48 meeg: why would we not use gcc ??? Feb 15 21:10:49 dirkhh: what you can we can do too :) Feb 15 21:10:55 I'd hope so, since the intel compiler isn't exactly free Feb 15 21:11:09 moblin uses gcc. maemo uses gcc (although not quite the same version) Feb 15 21:11:13 -> meego uses gcc Feb 15 21:11:15 easy ;) Feb 15 21:11:16 I'd rather have you not do it so that I can take the afternoon off (on this holiday) Feb 15 21:11:31 dirkhh: still 10 pm :-) Feb 15 21:11:31 i thought that was part of moblins secret sauce Feb 15 21:11:36 do you guys know if it will be possible to install the meego on the N900? Feb 15 21:11:36 Stskeeps: Seems to be some misconfig there. Feb 15 21:11:39 meeg: eh no. Feb 15 21:11:39 arjan_: what distro will the meego release be based on? Feb 15 21:11:47 maemono: unknown Feb 15 21:11:52 and the Intel compiler miscompiles Qt Feb 15 21:11:55 wiretapped: what does that question mean? I think the answer is "MeeGo 1.0" Feb 15 21:12:01 wiretapped: but explain your question Feb 15 21:12:18 I think I need to add this to the FAQ Feb 15 21:12:18 . Feb 15 21:12:22 do you guys know if it will be possible to install the meego on the N900? Feb 15 21:12:28 even though it's such a silly question... Feb 15 21:12:30 no Feb 15 21:12:33 * arjan_ will likely spend the afternoon hacking QT Feb 15 21:12:36 oh... Feb 15 21:12:43 MeeGo is its own OS - not based on some other distro Feb 15 21:12:53 so far so good already... it looks already like I made some perf gains ;) Feb 15 21:13:01 maemono: actually, I have no idea, but this questions pop up here every 30seconds.... Feb 15 21:13:13 http://doc.trolltech.com/4.6/compiler-notes.html#known-issues-with-intel-c-compiler-for-linux Feb 15 21:13:14 dirkhh: You'd need a boatload of maintainers then. Feb 15 21:13:20 if it won't be possible, it's like nokia just throwing away the device that was just released 2 months ago Feb 15 21:13:21 along w/ n900 question Feb 15 21:13:28 X-Fade: what do you think Moblin and Maemo already have? Feb 15 21:13:30 yeah i guesses so Feb 15 21:13:34 d* Feb 15 21:14:01 av500: should be added to the FAQ and to the channel status line Feb 15 21:14:04 X-Fade: Maemo is it's own OS (yes it started with debian long ago, but it's no longer debian), and Moblin is its own OS Feb 15 21:14:06 arjan_: what part? Feb 15 21:14:18 maemono: I doubt that anybody knows the answer today.... Feb 15 21:14:19 thiago: I'm hacking some qimage part to go much faster Feb 15 21:14:34 one function inner loop was costing me 40% cpu in a benchmark Feb 15 21:14:39 have it down to 3% now ;) Feb 15 21:14:39 arjan_: I know maemo, been with since almost the start ;) Feb 15 21:14:44 hey all Feb 15 21:14:50 arjan_: i mean, all of the parts of a linux distro which you aren't modifying for meego... who's versions will you use? Feb 15 21:14:54 arjan_: cool Feb 15 21:15:04 arjan_: though I think someone was working on that the other day internally too Feb 15 21:15:06 arjan_: i hope you'll try to keep aligned to mainstream linux distros though regarding versions, since maemo got really insane in the end with old versions Feb 15 21:15:08 arjan_: checking ML Feb 15 21:15:08 wiretapped: we have our own for that; we use the upstream versions etc Feb 15 21:15:10 as a total outside I find it absolutely fascinating that all discussion here revolves around whether meego is debian or rpm.... Feb 15 21:15:10 we were stuck on debhelper 5 for ages. Feb 15 21:15:35 maemo is a bastard mix of debian etch+lenny+squeeze; I read that moblin has a mix of fedora and opensuse stuff (?) Feb 15 21:15:37 arjan_: can't find anything Feb 15 21:15:37 Stskeeps: moblin has been much more aggressive in updating; this is one of the things we bring to meego as value Feb 15 21:15:47 arjan_: so there is no upstream distro?! Feb 15 21:15:51 wiretapped: correct Feb 15 21:15:55 arjan_: glad to hear :) Feb 15 21:15:56 wiretapped: we ARE an upstream distro Feb 15 21:16:25 wiretapped: after trying to shoehorn maemo on top of debian 5.0 for a couple of days, being the last in the chain seems sane. Feb 15 21:16:27 wiretapped: moblin being a mix of fedora and suse is not correct per se; yes it borrows some pieces, but people who say that tend to have their own agenda Feb 15 21:16:48 wiretapped: not everyone wants Intel (or Nokia) to have their own upstream distro it seems ;-) Feb 15 21:16:59 arjan_: anyway, just in case you hadn't seen it, the unit tests for Qt are all in tests/auto Feb 15 21:17:39 arjan_: interesting, thanks Feb 15 21:18:16 Stskeeps: too soon to ask about the future of mer? Feb 15 21:18:32 thiago: so far I have gone from 8.8 frames per second to 12.3 Feb 15 21:18:39 or better use a distro which already properly supports arm. Feb 15 21:18:40 in this benchmark app Feb 15 21:18:47 hi everyone Feb 15 21:18:59 wiretapped: made initial indications in http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=527268#post527268 Feb 15 21:19:25 hi Feb 15 21:19:31 hi! Feb 15 21:19:44 FUCK RPM Feb 15 21:19:48 but on meego qt have new api? Feb 15 21:19:50 what the hell Feb 15 21:19:57 why are they ditching apt??? Feb 15 21:19:58 spectre-: we had that discussion Feb 15 21:19:59 :P Feb 15 21:20:00 spectre-: maybe you want to use more polite language to express your feelings ? Feb 15 21:20:00 niqt_: Qt is Qt everywhere. Feb 15 21:20:14 apt is much better though Feb 15 21:20:15 imo Feb 15 21:20:17 i write at maemo application Feb 15 21:20:27 never liked RPM Feb 15 21:20:27 apt IS much better Feb 15 21:20:28 i'm wondering if i should remove the rpm part of topic to not attract too many comment trolls Feb 15 21:20:32 an i use non common wisget Feb 15 21:20:39 what the hell are they doing Feb 15 21:20:39 exape timepicker Feb 15 21:20:43 Stskeeps: I would suggest so Feb 15 21:20:44 example Feb 15 21:21:00 oh noes guise! Feb 15 21:21:03 no p,ut it back in Feb 15 21:21:09 why are people comparing apt to RPM? that doesnt make sense Feb 15 21:21:16 spectre-: the time for flamewar is gone. Feb 15 21:21:17 the fact that everyone is outraged should say something Feb 15 21:21:18 oh.. we switched back to deb, finally :D Feb 15 21:21:19 RPM can be compared to DEB Feb 15 21:21:22 apt is a frontend Feb 15 21:21:23 flamewar? Feb 15 21:21:30 dnaumov: everyone had bad RPM experiences in the past, but it's comparable to using dpkg manually.. Feb 15 21:21:32 .apk ftw! Feb 15 21:21:33 ok. deb is better Feb 15 21:21:33 :P Feb 15 21:21:33 spectre-: you should have been here 6 hours ago for the "discussion". Feb 15 21:21:35 deb ftw Feb 15 21:21:48 actually, i think you can use aptitude with rpm's Feb 15 21:21:51 well, i was busy showing off maemo to a mobile conference in uganda Feb 15 21:21:52 deb vs rpm is completely and utterly irrelevant Feb 15 21:21:53 imo we need more ms installation packages Feb 15 21:21:53 so sorryh Feb 15 21:21:59 i'm outraged now Feb 15 21:22:06 what matters is frontends to those package formats Feb 15 21:22:13 hopefully the community can generate enough pressure to get the intel devs to changes to debian based system Feb 15 21:22:15 apt-rpm ! Feb 15 21:22:17 i'm going to go and sob in a corner now Feb 15 21:22:18 lol Feb 15 21:22:27 dnaumov: and even that is barely so... packagekit is the abstraction that most apps etc use anyway Feb 15 21:22:32 * Hasbro scratches his head Feb 15 21:22:33 yeah we need a debian based system Feb 15 21:22:34 let's NOT have this conversation again please. Feb 15 21:22:40 yeah, we need more whine and decision will change Feb 15 21:22:43 marcoil: you do know you can have a debian system using RPM Feb 15 21:22:44 they can't even understand why deb is superior. not to mention deb source 3.0 formats. Feb 15 21:22:45 yeah we've been there Feb 15 21:22:48 InstallShield anybody? Feb 15 21:22:48 marko_, hehe, we get steamrolled, so steamroll right back. :D Feb 15 21:22:49 and trolling on forums Feb 15 21:22:50 and how does ovistore fit to rpm? Feb 15 21:22:53 thiago: have you undserstand my question? Feb 15 21:23:00 marko_, that's not the way you make a cohesive community. For shame. :P Feb 15 21:23:00 please keep looping the conversation, I missed the first broadcast Feb 15 21:23:03 nokia is out of their mind Feb 15 21:23:04 unclewerner: how would it not fit? Feb 15 21:23:06 then i'm gonna pull my hair out and mail it to the meego people, saying this is what their RPM made me do Feb 15 21:23:07 * arjan_ goes back to hacking QT to make it go faster Feb 15 21:23:12 they JUST got it right with maemo Feb 15 21:23:18 arjan_: Qt :-) Feb 15 21:23:19 so meego will be a pure developers toy? Feb 15 21:23:24 why ditch debian now? Feb 15 21:23:24 ok Qt ;) Feb 15 21:23:25 what a loss Feb 15 21:23:25 or will you buy apps? Feb 15 21:23:29 arjan_: what? Being productive? Feb 15 21:23:37 hey it's my vacation day Feb 15 21:23:42 I can be productive if I want to ;) Feb 15 21:23:46 unclewerner: both the Ovi Store and AppUp will be supported. Feb 15 21:23:49 unclewerner, MeeGo is Nokia and Intel's answer to Android, WebOS, iPhone OS, etc. but more. Feb 15 21:23:51 I lately only get to hack on vacation days anyway Feb 15 21:24:05 RPM = bad aids Feb 15 21:24:06 what distro will it be based on? Feb 15 21:24:13 spectre-: MeeGo Feb 15 21:24:14 ... Feb 15 21:24:15 not debian, eh? Feb 15 21:24:24 Anything beats Bada, I guess Feb 15 21:24:30 badabum Feb 15 21:24:31 spectre-: saying that maemo is based on debian is ... simplifying things to the irrelevant Feb 15 21:24:34 thiago_home: thx Feb 15 21:24:35 big badabum Feb 15 21:24:38 I will based on MEEGO Feb 15 21:24:40 arjan Feb 15 21:24:53 bs. Feb 15 21:24:55 does anyone even have any real experience with bada? :) Feb 15 21:24:56 spectre-: it used to be, absolutely Feb 15 21:24:56 spectre-: meego is already gone. Feb 15 21:24:59 you know what happens when you put Samsung and Microsoft together, right? Feb 15 21:25:05 Bada Bing, Bada Boom Feb 15 21:25:10 :-) Feb 15 21:25:14 :) Feb 15 21:25:15 spectre-: but it did not keep up with it, it sort of went its own way Feb 15 21:25:17 Suurorca: I think they've only released one device so far Feb 15 21:25:25 /etc/init.d/bullshit stop Feb 15 21:25:29 and the Bada API is... Feb 15 21:25:30 Bada's SDK is still vapourware Feb 15 21:25:34 Just like LiMo's Feb 15 21:25:39 it looks like a C++ API created by Java developers Feb 15 21:25:47 apt-get remove meego Feb 15 21:25:48 (I tried to download it, and they request a "Partner" account) Feb 15 21:26:04 for writing twitter apps :) Feb 15 21:26:08 lots of interesting things we'll proudly steal ideas from. But as a C++ toolkit, it's not well designed. Feb 15 21:26:10 so rpm will be a developers tool and the user can get her apps from ovi... ok, may work Feb 15 21:26:16 vmlemon_: oh, that $10k/yr account? Feb 15 21:26:19 * vmlemon_ saw that they released a ton of "confidential and proprietary" code by accident as part of a WebKit drop, too Feb 15 21:26:20 Yeah Feb 15 21:26:23 sad day Feb 15 21:26:27 arjan_: certain packages in maemo do get their updates from debian Feb 15 21:26:28 unclewerner: should users use rpm directly? Feb 15 21:26:28 btw - quite a few new answers in the FAQ Feb 15 21:26:29 i was excited for maemo Feb 15 21:26:31 and nokia Feb 15 21:26:34 spectre- also --purge it ... I'll ditch their rpm crap once release and reinstall debian arm on the top of that whatever that costs. Feb 15 21:26:34 i still am Feb 15 21:26:41 but what a dampener Feb 15 21:26:47 av500: the get a virus easily Feb 15 21:26:49 on my mood Feb 15 21:26:51 rpm -e spectre Feb 15 21:26:56 spectre-: just because it's not going to be taking packages from Debian? Feb 15 21:27:05 debian fs layout Feb 15 21:27:06 I remember when nokia made first serious announcements about maemo, one finnish business magazine wrote "how could nokia succeed with linux on mobiles, when motorola already threw millions of dollars at it and failed" ;P Feb 15 21:27:06 etc Feb 15 21:27:16 it loses the holy debian aura Feb 15 21:27:20 yeah Feb 15 21:27:22 seriously Feb 15 21:27:28 i like debians layout Feb 15 21:27:35 * av500 wonders what debian aura is Feb 15 21:27:41 FHS :) Feb 15 21:27:43 and i, like many others, know debian well Feb 15 21:27:49 Is there a technical explanation somewhere for why Moblin switched to RPM? Feb 15 21:28:01 debian 5 is great on eee pc Feb 15 21:28:09 aren't most of the base standards sponsored by the Linux Foundation anyway? Feb 15 21:28:11 GeneralAntilles: LFS? Feb 15 21:28:17 where's the petition i can sign to get them to switch back to a debian base? Feb 15 21:28:18 I like Symbian a lot, but I guess that Samsung never learned the mistakes that they made, as far as C++ itself are concerned... (e.g. Samsung have also replaced exceptions with a proprietary system) Feb 15 21:28:19 GeneralAntilles: switched? Feb 15 21:28:21 and i love all the dummies (ubunties=) testing it for me... Feb 15 21:28:23 yeah, but for an embedded platform? Feb 15 21:28:27 GeneralAntilles rpm is the corporate crap. nothing to do with technology. Feb 15 21:28:42 is there a justification for the rpm choice for the LFS too? Feb 15 21:28:44 andres, used to be deb back in the day. Feb 15 21:28:46 RedShat Feb 15 21:28:52 vmlemon_: just what the world needs. *Another* exception mechanism in C++... Feb 15 21:28:55 DedRat Feb 15 21:29:01 NewL! Feb 15 21:29:31 perhaps they changed to rpm because of linux standard base (LSB) Feb 15 21:29:31 longjmp is as good as it gets Feb 15 21:29:39 lardman: most distributions by number as well as commercial interest use RPM. Feb 15 21:29:40 They also seem to like C++ namespaces a lot Feb 15 21:29:41 asian mentality doesn't really go well with concept of 'open source' ;P Feb 15 21:29:43 r0b0t0: i think that sums it up :( Feb 15 21:29:53 vmlemon_: look at the string class. Feb 15 21:29:56 vmlemon_: it's virtual! Feb 15 21:29:58 who cares about lsb Feb 15 21:30:00 Heh Feb 15 21:30:15 I personally do not see that much of a difference between deb and rpm Feb 15 21:30:17 spectre- I guess users rage would lead to writing an overtake installers to reinstall debian on the top of their rpm so called distro. Feb 15 21:30:17 Stskeeps: It's unannounced - I'm MeeGo god ;-) Feb 15 21:30:20 The WebKit drop is fun, too Feb 15 21:30:23 thiago_home: so it's an inertia thing that than anything technical then Feb 15 21:30:28 is rasterman in api design team? Feb 15 21:30:35 Lots of stuff that showcases the fact that the developers are new to Visual Studio Feb 15 21:30:37 lardman: yes, because on the technical level, they're on par. Feb 15 21:30:37 thiago_home: when was mass an argument? Feb 15 21:30:50 Or at least forgetful/incompetent Feb 15 21:30:58 give me (q)uali(t)y Feb 15 21:31:05 Can somebody fix the meego-dev list please? Feb 15 21:31:14 I have no particular view, just interested in db speed in the package manager Feb 15 21:31:17 and also in the build tools Feb 15 21:31:20 unclewerner: I didn't say it was, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case Feb 15 21:31:25 and apt-get Feb 15 21:31:33 and the fs layout Feb 15 21:31:36 X-Fade: 'fix' as in 'accidentally unsubscribe the next person to mention the doom of all platform(s) as we know it'? Feb 15 21:31:36 X-Fade: fix? Feb 15 21:31:41 and system design Feb 15 21:31:51 who cares about rpm or deb ? They have basically the same functionalities Feb 15 21:32:09 yes but it sounds like they're ditching the debian heritage Feb 15 21:32:13 bzhb: so much with your understanding. Feb 15 21:32:14 meego-dev list breaks sender email addresses. Everybody sends as meego-dev@meego.com now. Feb 15 21:32:16 Jaffa: *.) Feb 15 21:32:17 which is the problem Feb 15 21:32:20 has anyone gotten past .rpm and talked about packaging policy yet? Feb 15 21:32:25 people heavily invested in either Feb 15 21:32:28 lbt: NAFAICT Feb 15 21:32:35 thiago_home: I'm drunk, so listen carefully;) Feb 15 21:32:36 lbt: nah, that would be useful ;) Feb 15 21:32:41 lbt: the discussion never reaches that far :-) Feb 15 21:32:52 Why rpm sucks --->> http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ Feb 15 21:32:54 wtF? Feb 15 21:32:57 RPM has too much of a corporate background, they may aswell use windows installer Feb 15 21:33:04 *and* why it's not a problem :) Feb 15 21:33:12 are rpm' Feb 15 21:33:19 are rpm's even maintainable like debs? Feb 15 21:33:19 DeVNuLL_: right, so a distribution sponsored by two big companies doesn't? Feb 15 21:33:20 yeah windows installer is so much superior to rpm . Feb 15 21:33:24 I use Arch,Debian,zenwalk,ubuntu... it's basically all the same Feb 15 21:33:40 WHY RPM??? :( Feb 15 21:33:42 Linux is Linux is Linux, as far as desktop distributions are concerned... Feb 15 21:33:47 ubuntu is based on debian Feb 15 21:33:51 deb is already used in Maemo!!!! Feb 15 21:33:53 what!???? Feb 15 21:33:54 They stopped being interesting for me, a long time ago Feb 15 21:33:56 same shit, different package manager Feb 15 21:34:00 bzhb you use debian as a windows users. Feb 15 21:34:04 ptl: RPM is already used in Moblin. Feb 15 21:34:05 not at all Feb 15 21:34:13 anyway, I'm NOT going to get dragged in this again Feb 15 21:34:26 thiago_home: and why moblin had to have the upper hand, since maemo is more popular and robust? Feb 15 21:34:28 I use debian on a SheevaPlug Feb 15 21:34:31 jesus you guys know nothing about linux if you're gonna claim redhat==debian==slackware Feb 15 21:34:32 thiago_home: my point is deb is more open which will mean more repositories carrying ARM packages Feb 15 21:34:43 ptl: because nokia needs intel, but intel does not need nokia.... Feb 15 21:34:56 DeVNuLL_: I'm NOT going to get into this argument again. Feb 15 21:34:57 did someone mention Feb 15 21:34:58 spectre- sad but true... and these guys are going to be writing policies. LOL. Feb 15 21:35:00 or any packages, for that matter Feb 15 21:35:04 #meego on tmo ? Feb 15 21:35:09 scary shit Feb 15 21:35:32 av500: so, instead of technical excellence, meego is being driven by lame commercial interests? Feb 15 21:35:36 "MeeGo is now XFinity" Feb 15 21:35:38 * vmlemon_ hides Feb 15 21:35:39 and nokia doesn't need intel for jack shit Feb 15 21:35:42 ptl: that is my 2c.... Feb 15 21:35:44 av500: I'd say that's a bit naive... intel most definitely needs nokia's leverage to gain real mobile penetration Feb 15 21:35:50 nokia is the worlds largest mobile device manufacturer Feb 15 21:35:53 lbt: *g* Feb 15 21:35:56 ARM rules Feb 15 21:35:57 spectre-: wow Feb 15 21:36:00 write PR hype and lame greedy management. Feb 15 21:36:01 spectre-: Lies, Apple is! Feb 15 21:36:01 spectre-: the press conference today would seem to contradict you Feb 15 21:36:06 bring back the RISC PC, best ARM machine i've ever seen :P Feb 15 21:36:07 what nokia needs is to get space in the US market Feb 15 21:36:14 press conference? Feb 15 21:36:17 spectre-: you know, the Nokia CEO came out and talked in favour of this union Feb 15 21:36:20 good old british engineering Feb 15 21:36:21 Well, they Shared-Sourced RISC OS Feb 15 21:36:28 Suurorca: i guess they are both scared shitless by A+A Feb 15 21:36:32 (There's a build for the BeagleBoard) Feb 15 21:36:39 why does meego have to be pink anyway. Feb 15 21:36:50 coz it is a joke. Feb 15 21:36:53 mmmmmm. RISC OS as platform for N900 *drools* Feb 15 21:36:55 i am going to cry my self sleep because of this RPM fiasco. I'll check back tomorrow and hope that meego we get this sorted out and back to debian Feb 15 21:36:55 thiago, so you're saying the press conference said nokia wasn't the worlds largest mobile seller? Feb 15 21:36:59 Pink! And with PONIES! Feb 15 21:37:00 HAHAHAHAHA Feb 15 21:37:04 lies? Feb 15 21:37:08 And fairies and sprinkles Feb 15 21:37:21 * ptl agrees with marko Feb 15 21:37:22 i reckon this is just a wind up Feb 15 21:37:32 i'll just go android now Feb 15 21:37:37 or whatever Feb 15 21:37:37 I'm not saying those distribution are exactly the same. But that they all delivers basically the same software and contribute to the open-source movemnt Feb 15 21:37:39 Next up - WebOS and Bada to merge. Become BadOS(TM). Feb 15 21:37:42 * r0b0t0 goes android too. Feb 15 21:37:53 all us geeks are already depressed after valentines day, saying maemo is moving to RPM would push us over the edge Feb 15 21:37:56 * ptl can't go android now, already bought a N900. Feb 15 21:38:03 vmlemon_: or just BadaS ;) Feb 15 21:38:05 Hah Feb 15 21:38:11 DeVNuLL_: :( yeah Feb 15 21:38:19 ptl try debian arm istead. Feb 15 21:38:35 ptl: N900 should run android just fine.... Feb 15 21:38:44 * vmlemon_ is still torn between buying a current Symbian Platform device, and waiting for Symbian^3-based devices Feb 15 21:38:45 oh come on, rpm can't be THAT bad :p Feb 15 21:38:53 (I had an N73 before I lost it) Feb 15 21:38:59 av500: I don't like android's frankenstein-like linux with java Feb 15 21:39:04 it aint bad.. its just... red hat Feb 15 21:39:06 it is much more bad than that. Feb 15 21:39:11 so you hate rpm so much that you jump to javaos? Feb 15 21:39:16 rpm is not that bad Feb 15 21:39:18 ptl: your call.... Feb 15 21:39:32 rpm is not a bad format, I've made several rpm packages and also deb packages and even aix LPP packages Feb 15 21:39:52 the problem is not quite the packaging format, but the accompanying tools Feb 15 21:39:58 the deb format, alongside apt-get, dpkg-repack and many others, has no rivals Feb 15 21:40:02 making several packages does not count at all. *experience* is needed. Feb 15 21:40:05 I'm calling your bluff that you ever successfully made a deb. Feb 15 21:40:05 also the deb policy is more robust Feb 15 21:40:09 Heh, it's not even Java, it's some bastardised abomination that happens to have Java-like syntax and ABIs, but runs on a virtual machine with a proprietary bytecode that's nowhere near as efficient as real Java Feb 15 21:40:20 indeed Feb 15 21:40:20 ptl Feb 15 21:40:24 r0b0t0: I meant in the sense that I know at least a bit of the formats Feb 15 21:40:30 i'm feeling let down Feb 15 21:40:30 vmlemon_: so? Feb 15 21:40:32 i compiled tar into a deb for the n900 the other day Feb 15 21:40:32 I'd prefer java crap to rpm crap. Feb 15 21:40:36 was really proud of myself Feb 15 21:40:41 * vmlemon_ saw a tool for repackaging J2ME crap as Dalvik crap recently Feb 15 21:40:45 Dunno if it works, though Feb 15 21:40:54 *APIs Feb 15 21:40:55 even Feb 15 21:40:56 you're all overreacting. Feb 15 21:40:57 spectre-: me too Feb 15 21:41:00 vmlemon_: pure java on phone went so well the past years.... Feb 15 21:41:10 Indeed... Feb 15 21:41:16 * vmlemon_ still remembers SavaJe Feb 15 21:41:22 is maemo open enough that we can just fork it away from nokia? Feb 15 21:41:22 They went nowhere, fast Feb 15 21:41:35 * av500 must have missed the appstore on his series 40 and 60 phones... Feb 15 21:41:41 spectre-: not quite, the main utilities are closed-source Feb 15 21:41:43 Shapeshifter, thats what geeks do Feb 15 21:41:44 spectre-: nope. but MeeGo is :-) Feb 15 21:41:46 who really cares about packaging format if the software bad ? Feb 15 21:41:49 spectre- better join debian arm/armel mailing lists. Feb 15 21:41:50 ian_brasil: waaaaaaaaaaaah Feb 15 21:41:52 wait for release, then fork Feb 15 21:41:53 spectre-: try installing the scratchbox environment for maemo and you'lle see Feb 15 21:41:56 a lot of the userspace apps are closed source Feb 15 21:41:58 ok, mailing list is fixed. Thanks for pointing it out here... Feb 15 21:42:11 don't get me wrong, MeeGo is going to be great, but RPM is a bad move Feb 15 21:42:12 kad: it subtracts from the quality Feb 15 21:42:26 j-b: ;) Feb 15 21:42:33 will meego abandon the hard-owned Nokia UI efforts on hildon? Feb 15 21:42:39 *hard-earned Feb 15 21:42:41 av500: really ? that many people on one day? Feb 15 21:42:41 DeVNuLL_: So how long have you worked with rpm and built rpm packages? Feb 15 21:42:44 ptl: Maemo 6 already does that Feb 15 21:42:45 rpm is a terrible move, I'd never buy such a device and I'd tell all my friends to avoid that. Feb 15 21:42:55 ptl: didn't maemo 6 drop that already ? Feb 15 21:42:55 ptl: no Feb 15 21:42:57 ptl: Maemo 6 will Feb 15 21:42:58 I'm sure rpm just needs a little getting used to. Feb 15 21:43:02 I'd say push it the users without ugly dependency generators Feb 15 21:43:04 range: I haven't, I just don't like red hat Feb 15 21:43:07 and keep the libs stable Feb 15 21:43:08 it's not like suse or fedora are dependency hell. Feb 15 21:43:12 villemv: but as far as I can see, the qt interface looks pretty much like hildon and follows the same guidelines, isn't it? Feb 15 21:43:13 just relax, adapt Feb 15 21:43:15 DeVNuLL_: Oh, that's a good reason. Feb 15 21:43:16 rpm thing is just a pile of bikeshedding here Feb 15 21:43:18 learn something new. Feb 15 21:43:24 I hate oracle, still I use db. Feb 15 21:43:42 oracle db? Feb 15 21:43:45 ptl: MeeGo will just be Maemo6 basically Feb 15 21:43:48 No. db as in libdb Feb 15 21:43:51 with different core stuff Feb 15 21:43:53 villemv: with rpm Feb 15 21:43:58 yeah Feb 15 21:43:58 ptl: usually, if software quality has nothing to do with packaging. sometimes packaging helps to find obvious issues, but generally not. Feb 15 21:44:01 nothing compares to deb-src 3.0 extensible formats. Feb 15 21:44:05 rpm is hardly visible on gui ;-) Feb 15 21:44:17 and it should be Feb 15 21:44:29 it might as well use yaast now Feb 15 21:44:30 it might as well use yaast now Feb 15 21:44:32 er Feb 15 21:44:36 sorry for the dup Feb 15 21:44:37 kad: packaging determines what is optified and non-optified in the case of maemo, just to point one issue that contributes to software quality Feb 15 21:44:42 you guys should start discussing how the different target devices affect applications and relevant middleware. Far more interesting than the package format, if you ask me. Feb 15 21:45:17 ptl: oh that's a whole different issue, the partitioning and mounting stuff in maemo is a bad joke Feb 15 21:45:19 lle2: most of the middleware should be the same Feb 15 21:45:21 Could always have Alien run on "legacy" Maemo packages on-the-fly during installation, for what it's worth Feb 15 21:45:23 the whole file system is messed up Feb 15 21:45:25 hopefully it will be just a UI issue Feb 15 21:45:31 package format is such a basic thing that it makes no sense to discuss anything else further until it is properly fixed. Feb 15 21:45:37 meego to sleep Feb 15 21:45:49 ptl: rpm had relocation mechanisms back in 90s. Feb 15 21:45:52 X-Fade: meewish you good night. Feb 15 21:45:54 lle2, I'm worried this will bring it back to the state symbian is in, where not even Nokia itself can manage to write portable software that works on more than a handful of devices Feb 15 21:46:11 thiago_home: there is guaranteed to be significant differences in multimedia side, totally different resolutions, form factors, input mechanisms etc. Feb 15 21:46:27 lle2: most of which can be abstracted away in Qt Feb 15 21:46:36 but, sure the form factor will dictate the UI design Feb 15 21:46:53 I hope n900fly will be repackaged in RPM Feb 15 21:47:06 DeVNuLL_: oh yeah that's my biggest worry as well Feb 15 21:47:17 What are the official resolutions for MeeGo ? Feb 15 21:47:23 DeVNuLL_: LOL Feb 15 21:47:34 j-b: any Feb 15 21:47:41 shapeshifter: damn right! how will i be able to throw my N900 in discust? Feb 15 21:47:58 j-b: will vlc support meego? Feb 15 21:48:01 why attack the n900, esp. if it won't get the meego? Feb 15 21:48:01 i've done a bunch of different software, with Sun pkg, Debian deb, RedHat rpm, BSD pkg, Windows msi, etc. apt/yum dependencies are both sufficiently good. deb/rpm is a non-event compared to writing decent software. Feb 15 21:48:03 Shapeshifter: I think he means political resolutions for the meego platform, not the graphical resolutions Feb 15 21:48:14 thiago_home: I've not seen any platform handle laptop and mobile phone devices with the same UI, while remaining even remotely state of the art for both. Throw in the other device categories.. going to be fun :) Feb 15 21:48:15 ^^ Feb 15 21:48:26 i sell this damned phone by telling fellow techies it uses apt Feb 15 21:48:26 da4089: I tend to agree Feb 15 21:48:29 thiago_home: you still need to design different UI's for different screen sizes Feb 15 21:48:31 j-b: on netbooks, the minimum is 1024x600 Feb 15 21:48:33 what a crazy decision Feb 15 21:48:34 lle2: I didn't say same UI Feb 15 21:48:37 lle2: there are different "UX" modules in arch diagram for that Feb 15 21:48:39 New WinMo looks shitty Feb 15 21:48:42 No surprise there Feb 15 21:48:43 on phones I don't know, but the the n900 is about 1024x600 as well Feb 15 21:48:43 lle2: if I understood this correctly, they'll have different "environments" for different purposes Feb 15 21:48:45 lle2: I said same middleware, different UI Feb 15 21:48:52 da4089: 'compared to', but the software is already written, and it needs to be packaged the best way and following the best policies and also have the best utilities for handling it. Feb 15 21:48:52 arjan_: 800x480 Feb 15 21:48:54 vmlemon_: they're going for the walled-garden, appliance approach Feb 15 21:48:54 av500: why not :D Feb 15 21:48:59 lle2: nothing really against that, the apps will still be portable (it's just linux) Feb 15 21:48:59 thiago_home: 800x480 on a 3.5" is not the same as 800x480 on a 8" Feb 15 21:49:03 users want stable system management, not reinstalling it with every release. Feb 15 21:49:03 thiago_home: yes, I read what you said, I was not disagreeing with you Feb 15 21:49:08 j-b: yes, but .deb or -rpm¿ Feb 15 21:49:08 Shame about their umpteenth rebrand to "Windows phone" erm "Windows Phone", which makes it sound like a device Feb 15 21:49:14 arjan_: can you point me to a moblin (or relevant) equivalent of http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ ?? Feb 15 21:49:23 av500: .rpm I guess Feb 15 21:49:25 thiago_home: at least not from the usability perspective Feb 15 21:49:26 arachnist, maybe that means no more lying about the DPI? :) Feb 15 21:49:29 does MeeGo provide OpenMAX IL like the Maemo 5 ? Feb 15 21:49:36 lbt: we have an internal one that will go the meego page soonish Feb 15 21:49:41 lbt: the one in the wiki you're going to write? :-) Feb 15 21:49:48 ShadowJK: i like lying about the dpi Feb 15 21:49:49 lbt: it's somewhat like the fedora one, except that we have special rules for autoconf packages Feb 15 21:49:51 j-b: why should it not Feb 15 21:49:56 indeed - I'm planning on it Feb 15 21:49:57 (where we use an autopackager, not a human packager) Feb 15 21:50:04 av500: no idea. I am just asking Feb 15 21:50:06 ShadowJK: my laptop screen has about 140dpi. i tell xorg to lie it's a 90" dpi screen Feb 15 21:50:08 arjan_: internal one!! so no opennness here Feb 15 21:50:21 arjan_: the community did not have any role in this Feb 15 21:50:22 av500: VLC on N900 is really fast for h264 decoding using the OpenMax IL decoder Feb 15 21:50:23 arachnist, well if the system stopped lying about the DPI the software could actually know how big the screen is physically Feb 15 21:50:28 ptl: best is nice, but packaging is a small issue overall. good enough is .. good enough. i'm a deb fanboi, but rpm/yum is not the end of the world. Feb 15 21:50:32 ptl: you asked about the moblin doc our own guys use Feb 15 21:50:39 oh ok I got it ... using autopackager instead of human packaging clears it all... it is going to be a giant pain to the users. Feb 15 21:50:40 ptl: I answer that question Feb 15 21:50:45 j-b: on DSP or arm? Feb 15 21:50:49 DSP Feb 15 21:50:54 ptl: and say that's basically the fedora one + autopackaging for autoconf'd usptream Feb 15 21:50:57 ShadowJK: most software would assume i want everything bigger than normal, because it's a 13" Feb 15 21:51:09 da4089: it might be an enormous issue if you don't take care of it properly. Feb 15 21:51:17 j-b: seems like openmax pain is worth it then :) Feb 15 21:51:22 ptl: if all you're doing is just looking for something to bitch about, rather than real questions, then I'll go back to hacking QT on my holiday afternoon Feb 15 21:51:23 lbt: http://gitorious.org/opensuse/packaging-guidelines might be useful :) Feb 15 21:51:24 da4089: why change what's already well stablished and working? Feb 15 21:51:33 good qt hacking Feb 15 21:51:40 it's mardi gras here in Brazil Feb 15 21:51:51 bad day for such sad news. Feb 15 21:51:53 kad ... ta Feb 15 21:51:55 av500: well, it goes from 100% and a lot of battery use to around 10% and more battery Feb 15 21:51:56 I've got my N900 less than one week ago Feb 15 21:52:14 and now I am deeply regretted about it, despite the technical excellence of the device. Feb 15 21:52:17 j-b: sure Feb 15 21:52:23 ptl: that i agree with. but that's the pain of corporate sponsorship. why switch to Qt from Gtk+/Hildon just because Nokia bought Trolltech? Feb 15 21:52:27 ptl: just send it to me. Feb 15 21:52:33 ptl, and nobody is going to force you to install meego on it or force you to install RPM on it :P Feb 15 21:52:36 ptl: the device suddenly went bad? Feb 15 21:52:40 av500: I am not sure if it was tested outside of H264 Feb 15 21:52:46 ptl: and you regret it now... I'm happy I didn't buy one, yet. Feb 15 21:52:52 ShadowJK: sure, would I get my money back with a compensation for trusting nokia? Feb 15 21:52:54 oops Feb 15 21:52:55 da4089: because of cross-platformness Feb 15 21:52:55 * vmlemon_ wonders if the new WinMo still has the ridiculous 32MB per-process limit that was a relic from the "vanilla" Windows CE days Feb 15 21:53:02 da4089: the entire Symbian asset is being built on top of Qt Feb 15 21:53:05 Shapeshifter: sure, would I get my money back with a compensation for trusting nokia? Feb 15 21:53:19 da4089: makes sense to have that native in Maemo too. Same API for developers. Feb 15 21:53:22 thiago_home: not to mention windows mobile Feb 15 21:53:30 da4089: but techcnically it's justified. Qt is superior to GTK+ Feb 15 21:53:32 welp Feb 15 21:53:42 i'm dropping my support for this garbage Feb 15 21:53:43 so Feb 15 21:53:47 peace out Feb 15 21:53:52 da4089: rpm is not superior to .deb, it's equivalent. But you lose a whole ecosystem of utilities and the debian policy. Feb 15 21:53:53 whoa, "Julf Helsingius" is still active, on maemo-devel even Feb 15 21:54:04 thiago_home: that's fine and good for Nokia, but doesn't really help Maemo. Feb 15 21:54:06 I thought he disappeared completely after scientology fiasco Feb 15 21:54:17 da4089: so bringing apps to Maemo doesn't help Maemo? Feb 15 21:54:40 uhmm... has the meego logo just been changed from pink to purple? Feb 15 21:54:48 * vmlemon_ is still waiting for a Haiku or QNX Neutrino-powered phone Feb 15 21:54:52 thiago_home: not if it bloats memory Feb 15 21:55:20 it was pink a minute ago Feb 15 21:55:34 the website might be changing to align with the official one Feb 15 21:55:38 thiago_home: i don't think any app that you can "bring to Maemo" just because it uses Qt will be sufficiently good as a mobile app user experience. you have to redo the UI. at which point either works. Feb 15 21:55:44 ptl: most of packagers outside debian.org make packages which are not obeying debian policy. actually maemo policy is also not so close to debian policy. Feb 15 21:55:46 mshadle: meego.com Feb 15 21:55:56 yes, logo changed color Feb 15 21:56:06 pink was a bit too much wasnt it. Feb 15 21:56:07 Shapeshifter: i know. they're working on it :) Feb 15 21:56:14 you may have to do a shift reload to clear your chache Feb 15 21:56:26 I quite liked the pink Feb 15 21:56:31 it brought out my feminine side :( Feb 15 21:56:33 most definitely i've got heavy client cache rules setup Feb 15 21:56:36 bring back the pink!!! Feb 15 21:56:40 oh well, if xchat, xterm, openssh-*, rsync and my own kernels still work I'll be happy with whatever :P Feb 15 21:56:45 forget the pink, just get a mac Feb 15 21:56:50 (oh dear, RPM vs DEB, now we have pink vs purple!) Feb 15 21:56:59 da4089: talking about Symbian apps on Maemo Feb 15 21:57:01 kad: most of? I have a dozen repositories on my ubuntu, not any one of them clashing with ubuntu or debian policy! Feb 15 21:57:06 ptl: that's why gtk had to go. Feb 15 21:57:12 ptl: ok you lose the debian policy, but I'm sure Intel + Nokia + Linux Foundation + MeeGo Community will be enough to maintain the repository Feb 15 21:57:15 I'd rather have pink vs. purple, to be honest, w00t Feb 15 21:57:25 would be good to have a faq item explaning the choice of rpm Feb 15 21:57:30 dirkhh: where there is a bikeshed, people will paint it Feb 15 21:57:36 ++corecode Feb 15 21:57:37 the bike shed has to be blue Feb 15 21:57:39 I don't like purple since pidgin has that horrid bird as a logo. Feb 15 21:57:42 w00t++ Feb 15 21:57:44 i think that's what confuses people the most now Feb 15 21:57:46 It would be nice if I could understand why rpm. Feb 15 21:57:56 ptl: look at maemo .deb's if you formal enough, you'd find many deb policy violations easily. Feb 15 21:58:05 I was going for black on black as color scheme... Feb 15 21:58:11 The short answer is "Because Moblin already uses RPM" Feb 15 21:58:18 I think I overdid it on the wine. Just tried to put the bottle of red in the fridge - and that's not really needed in the UK in February. Feb 15 21:58:23 but that's probably not the answer you were looking for Feb 15 21:58:28 no technical grounds, right? Feb 15 21:58:37 Jaffa: HAHA. Feb 15 21:58:39 thiago_home: S40/S60 (and even UIQ) is a completely different user experience to Maemo. if you want a bunch of crappy apps, then sure, but it'll be like running X11/Athena apps on a Mac. Feb 15 21:58:40 jsmith, well, maemo already uses deb, so I'm not sure how that works. Feb 15 21:58:48 Jaffa: we can start worrying when it's the freezer. Feb 15 21:58:59 I think this channel needs a bot. Feb 15 21:59:06 da4089: I'm talking about GraphicsView-based apps, with Mobility API (sensors, multimedia, etc.) Feb 15 21:59:16 networking Feb 15 21:59:20 ScribbleJ: because rpm is the corporate format, which sux. Feb 15 21:59:20 ScribbleJ: I don't know either, to be completely honest... it sounds to me (personal opinion here) that they're taking the underlying OS of Moblin, and adding the Maemo user-facing bits on top of it Feb 15 21:59:22 w00t: I once did that with a bottle of champagne during a housewarming. Well, Mrs. Jaffa did. Champagne sorbet isn't as good (or bad) as it sounds Feb 15 21:59:27 thiago: so... now that I have 50% perf gain... where do I send the patch to QT ? Feb 15 21:59:34 factoids for !rpm (why rpm), !gtk (for yeah, gtk will still work) and !purple (yeah, the logo is now purple) Feb 15 21:59:37 jsmith: That's what I'm thinking too. Feb 15 22:00:04 I've packaged both .deb and .rpm files over the past decade, and they're not *all* that different Feb 15 22:00:07 Maemo staff have previously said they'd love to be only working in the UI layer, rather than maintaining their own distribution; boot system and so on - so te move makes sense in light of that. Feb 15 22:00:19 arjan_: qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt merge request. Feb 15 22:00:21 I don't mind qt, qt is sane. what sux is rpm switch. Feb 15 22:00:22 Sure, it's different than what many people are used to Feb 15 22:00:24 thiago_home: unified contacts API alone (messaging and the rest is of course also nice) really does make me happy, I've been reading up on QtMobility today and loving it Feb 15 22:00:25 Shapeshifter: and !pink (yeah, we liked the pink too) ;) Feb 15 22:00:32 jsmith: And with Qt Creator/MADDE/new SDKs, the packaging format will be increasingly abstracted from the majority of devs Feb 15 22:00:38 arjan_: I'll make sure someone looks at it tomorrow. Feb 15 22:00:49 what was nice with maemo is that a single instance of my hildon input method plugin (that needs to bring several Mb of data into memory) was used by many gtk text widgets. does meego features the same concept of an input method framework? through Qt mobility maybe? Feb 15 22:00:53 Jaffa: Exactly... it's going to be the code that makes the most difference, not the packaging format Feb 15 22:00:54 thiago: I"m a bit sad thguoh Feb 15 22:01:02 thiago: I had this nifty idea to make this guy faster Feb 15 22:01:04 thiago_home: well, i guess we'll see. that decision is already made, and it's Moblin who's losing Gtk+ now (since Maemo's already had that choice made) Feb 15 22:01:18 sadly just a small reorg I needed in prep for my idea already gave the 10x improvement on this function Feb 15 22:01:28 I suggest that in retaliation for using RPMs. we insist that Meego uses Modest as its mail client. See how they like that :) Feb 15 22:01:31 now I'm not sure if I should just do the nifty idea anyway for the sake of niftyness Feb 15 22:01:39 jsmith:exactly. Feb 15 22:01:40 arjan_: you should take holidays more often Feb 15 22:01:40 * jsmith throws in the old adage about eggs and omelets, just for good measure Feb 15 22:01:51 jsmith: what code are you talking about if it takes most of your time to fixing the system becuseof the crappy package manager clashed with ots own format? Feb 15 22:01:54 it would be nice if there was enough community around maemo to fork it before it morphs into meego. Feb 15 22:01:59 what was first? egg or omelette? Feb 15 22:02:20 free software is all about not bending over backwards to corporations which make stupid decisions. Feb 15 22:02:23 ptl: if that's what you feel is the better direction, you can always do it Feb 15 22:02:28 arjan_: make several patches :-) Feb 15 22:02:31 arjan_: it's Git :-) Feb 15 22:02:32 ptl: you can do that now, no? Feb 15 22:02:40 w00t: not quite, there's not enough communities and many parts of maemo are closed source Feb 15 22:02:40 yeah, free software is about bikeshedding and violent forking when you are moody Feb 15 22:02:45 r0b0t0: I'm saying that the move to RPM packaging isn't the end of the world. Sure, there might be some packing snafus that have to be worked out. But it's the quality of the code getting packaged that'll make or break MeeGo as a platform Feb 15 22:02:54 ptl: it'll never happen if everyone has that attitude, sure Feb 15 22:02:57 deb-src 3.0 (git) welcome to heavens. I bet you haven't even heard of that. Feb 15 22:02:59 r0b0t0: to package the code the average develloper will click a button on QtDevelop interface Feb 15 22:03:09 I personally would much rather wait around and see what happens Feb 15 22:03:14 it's much too early for pessimism at this stage Feb 15 22:03:16 r0b0t0: I know people who have had troubles with RPMs in the past. (And typically, it's been more the package manager *around* RPMs than the RPM format itself.) Feb 15 22:03:55 right ppl. i'm off to bed Feb 15 22:03:55 r0b0t0: Is RPM perfect? No. But will it do? Sure. Are RPMs inherently bad? I don't you could argue that they are... again, it comes down to the quality of the packaging. Feb 15 22:03:57 * DeVNuLL_ waves Feb 15 22:04:01 w00t: I am a systems administrator and I do programming very occasionally. I don't have the guts to do it myself. If I were deeply involved with programming for mobile devices, I'd sure put an effort on it. Feb 15 22:04:22 So, any chance that Meego will lift the WindRiver Linux build system for arm compatibility? Feb 15 22:04:28 * vmlemon_ is reminded of trying to build upon Apple's Darwin, with talk of uncooperative corporate beings and entire swaths of closed-source code as parts of critical infrastructure... Feb 15 22:04:30 but if you were involved with programming, you probably wouldn't want to do that Feb 15 22:04:30 choosing rpm over deb speaks a lot of their technical bckground and the reasons behind. they are not interesting of users good. Feb 15 22:04:39 fnordianslip: OBS Feb 15 22:04:46 r0b0t0: You can make an awful RPM package just like you can with .deb packages... it comes down to 1) doing the right thing and 2) quality control to ensure that things get fixed when they do break Feb 15 22:04:55 lbt: please elaborate? Feb 15 22:05:05 ptl: then - and understand I'm by no means belittling you or your beliefs - might you not think that perhaps the people who *are* working on it aren't going to make decisions to just pull themselves out of jobs and screw people over? Feb 15 22:05:06 r0b0t0: I personally find that a bit extreme... are you saying Red Hat and SuSE and Fedora don't care about their users, because they use RPM? Feb 15 22:05:14 moblin uses the open build system from suse Feb 15 22:05:16 jsmith: they are takling about automatic packaging ;-) Feb 15 22:05:20 hey, I even like .spec files better than debian/rules. But the deb-related utilities are way better Feb 15 22:05:25 lbt: ah Feb 15 22:05:37 ptl: what I'm saying is that it's basically not the end of the world.. and it's not going to maim children or anything Feb 15 22:05:45 r0b0t0: Talk is cheap... the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. Feb 15 22:05:46 ptl: tools can always be improved Feb 15 22:05:50 w00t: the people who make these decsions are not the same people that work on the code... unfortunately Feb 15 22:05:55 w00t: tell that to the maimed children Feb 15 22:05:59 wiretapped: ;) Feb 15 22:06:07 fnordianslip: it would bt normal ARM support, with almost native building (say bye-bye to mess of scratchboxes)... so should be fine Feb 15 22:06:11 * j-b would prefer rpm+qt over deb+gtk Feb 15 22:06:15 ptl: no, but usually (and I'd strongly think that in this case), they have a lot of input and weight Feb 15 22:06:17 fnordianslip: we adopted it in Mer - we *love* it Feb 15 22:06:34 w00t: community is also something that's mood-driven. You can't just alienate the developers community like that, with unilateral and disagreeable decisions. Feb 15 22:06:37 * arjan_ tries to use gitorious and wonders Feb 15 22:06:47 r0b0t0: MeeGo is not going to be a completely community based distribution like Debian is. Live with it... If it can bring the linux goodness to Joe Six pack and make corporate play nice with linux, it is already great achievement Feb 15 22:06:50 lbt: meegoes off to investigate OBS Feb 15 22:06:55 arjan_: gitorious is nice Feb 15 22:06:59 w00t: all in all, it's even less about the merits and demerits of deb and rpm than it is about disrespecting the people that make the system good. Feb 15 22:07:11 fnordianslip: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build Feb 15 22:07:14 lbt: I just need to figure how it works Feb 15 22:07:17 If only the N900 were all open source I'd say forget it and start my own distro. Feb 15 22:07:24 ptl: I haven't seen any disrespect or bad intentions in all of this, I suspect you're reading a little too much into it Feb 15 22:07:27 a bunch of market drones with ties comes along and says, it will be that and that way, and you have to obey. Feb 15 22:07:39 ptl: market drones don't know what RPM is. Feb 15 22:07:41 arjan_: the main thing is the 'merge request' - cf OBS sr Feb 15 22:07:54 ptl: Nobody is forcing you to do *anything*. Feb 15 22:07:56 it looks like I first need to make a git clone Feb 15 22:07:58 ptl: somewhere along the line, people with clue *have* been involved Feb 15 22:08:04 * arjan_ sees a 6 hour build time coming up ;-) Feb 15 22:08:08 what I really like is that you already managed to piss off quite some people, with that rpm PR. you get what you asked for. Feb 15 22:08:10 ptl: Sure, their decisions don't match with your preferences, but nobody is holding a gun to your head Feb 15 22:08:19 arjan_: yes, you need to upload your branch somewhere before you can ask for a merge request Feb 15 22:08:21 arjan_: we use it for Mer Feb 15 22:08:21 jsmith expresses it more succinctly than I can Feb 15 22:08:23 thanks. Feb 15 22:08:57 jsmith: they are not only my preferences... look at the reaction around you Feb 15 22:09:25 arjan_: grab a build.opensuse.org account and take a look at https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=Maemo%3AMer%3ADevel and https://build.opensuse.org/project/monitor?project=Maemo%3AMer%3AExtras%3ATesting - these are the displays that usually blow my mind :) Feb 15 22:09:27 "If you prefer deb to rpm, buy android. No, wait..." Feb 15 22:09:29 * jsmith imagines that once the dust settles, most people will find it an acceptable platform doing doing development, and we may even pick up a few more developers. If not, that's OK too. Isn't it wonderful that we can have choices? Feb 15 22:09:41 jsmith++ Feb 15 22:09:52 I never said I'd change to android Feb 15 22:09:57 I appreciate the levelheadness of that opinion. Feb 15 22:10:03 But you may also lose developers. Feb 15 22:10:04 writing stupid code is easy. Feb 15 22:10:08 pragmatic approach always wins :) Feb 15 22:10:10 Stskeeps: he was looking at gitorious Feb 15 22:10:12 aseigo: hey aaron Feb 15 22:10:23 If the choice to use RPMs would keep you from developing for Maemo^H^H^HMeeGo, then I'm sorry you feel that way Feb 15 22:10:25 loosing developers is also extremely easy. Feb 15 22:10:26 fnordianslip: look at Stskeeps' links above ^^^^ Feb 15 22:10:38 lbt: ah, woops, wrong advertisement ;) Feb 15 22:10:39 thiago_home: yo :) Feb 15 22:10:42 still very nice links :) Feb 15 22:10:50 and I would hope that all developers give it an honest shot, once the dust has settled and people have a chance to try things out Feb 15 22:10:52 Stskeeps: they are aren't they ;) Feb 15 22:10:54 oh dear, day one and we're already fortelling the doom of meego? Feb 15 22:10:59 * Jaffa bets the N900 + Maemo 6 device + any netbook/iPad-competitor manufacturers who can be engaged will result in more MeeGo devs than Moblin or Maemo has had in the past. Feb 15 22:11:03 arjan_: if it's too much trouble, send the patch to me and I'll forward it Feb 15 22:11:11 let's give it a bit of time to settle down and have the patience to give things a chance Feb 15 22:11:13 But I've been in many communities like this that have had to make tough decisions, and life goes on Feb 15 22:11:22 lbt: thanks. looking. Feb 15 22:11:29 thiago: I'd prefer that for now, if I end up with more than one patch then I'll do the git thing Feb 15 22:11:39 for one technical reason why take the moblin base: as it is today, maemo has a hard time building itself. It's not self-hosting. Feb 15 22:11:43 (I don't mind git, but I already have this stuff build, and it too my netbook 6 hours to do so) Feb 15 22:11:45 dust would never settle people are still conplaining with rpm and spending their time fixing the crappy systems. Feb 15 22:11:50 jsmith: I think a lot of people are getting over the shock and *not* being involved in the tough decision. But it's driven by commercials, why should they have been? Feb 15 22:11:58 Was it a tough decision, I wonder? Were the alternatives weighed? Was the community involved in making this decision about a "Community" distro? Feb 15 22:11:59 lle2: very interesting + valid point Feb 15 22:12:13 I do believe Intel and Nokia have managed to outdo Apple in the "terrible trademark" department with MeeGo. . . . Feb 15 22:12:17 I'd still like to know if ofono is included in that merger. Feb 15 22:12:21 maemo requires scratchbox for building, making it infinitely more cumbersome Feb 15 22:12:21 jsmith: it is one more thing against it, that's the point. Changing from Hildon GTK+ to QT wasn't enough? Developers can't hang to a moving target. Feb 15 22:12:22 Jaffa: Sure... Feb 15 22:12:27 GeneralAntilles: I agree :-) Feb 15 22:12:35 Mer would be the more complete, sensible base for a self-hosting distro Feb 15 22:12:35 lle2: scratchbox is dead - sing it with me.... Feb 15 22:12:36 range, considering ofono is a intel and nokia collaboration?... Feb 15 22:12:42 range: yes, ofono is part of the architecture Feb 15 22:12:42 yes MeeGo will use oFono Feb 15 22:12:44 ptl: All software is a moving target. If it's worth writing, it's worth writing again Feb 15 22:12:45 lle2: moblin has the advantage of making x86 code on x86, no? Feb 15 22:12:50 range: yes ofono is there Feb 15 22:12:52 IF maemo was built from the ground up with rpm, I'd have fewer complaints Feb 15 22:12:52 as is connman Feb 15 22:12:57 range: MeeGo is a distro around ofono :-) Feb 15 22:12:58 Tanks Feb 15 22:13:05 we needed a distro for the project Feb 15 22:13:06 And ships. Thanks of course :) Feb 15 22:13:06 ptl: If you want your code to last 50 years, write it in COBOL Feb 15 22:13:10 lbt: SB isn't dead, some people took it over from me :) Feb 15 22:13:21 av500, the maemo sdk makes x86 code too, it's even the recommended mode when developing something new Feb 15 22:13:24 jsmith: but that is not a neutral issue, the more moving the target, the more developers you alienate. And that's just too many changes in a too short time. Feb 15 22:13:25 ptl: Otherwise, it's going to have to adapt to modern libraries... And yes, some of those changes are *very* painful Feb 15 22:13:39 lle2: even after that, it still almost dead :) Feb 15 22:13:40 HI! Feb 15 22:13:42 lle2: rats Feb 15 22:14:02 ptl: What's the alternative? Stagnate? Lose more market share? Those don't look very comfortable either... Feb 15 22:14:14 jsmith: that's it, they're inflicting pain on the developers, not pleasure. Developers, developers, developers! You should please not, not penalize them Feb 15 22:14:17 I dunno about that angle, ptl; Maemo/Moblin is still a young platform and if there are painful decisions to be made, now is the best time to make them. Feb 15 22:14:17 Only one question! MeeGo will run on N900? Feb 15 22:14:24 jsmith: evolve continuously Feb 15 22:14:29 jsmith: get out of business perhaps. Feb 15 22:14:34 Federico89: unknown Feb 15 22:14:36 Federico89: we don't know yet, but it would be weird if it won't. Feb 15 22:14:38 jsmith: do not abandon technical excellence in favor of political issues Feb 15 22:14:39 bankrupt. Feb 15 22:14:40 kad: hehe ;) I would very much have liked to see Maemo reaching self-hosting, it would've reduced the number of nasty crap SB2 needs to pull off Feb 15 22:15:01 r0b0t0: We'd all like to see the suits take a back seat to the long-haired geeks at the keyboards, but that's not going to happen anytime soon. Feb 15 22:15:14 r0b0t0: We must live in the world, even if we're not exactly of the world Feb 15 22:15:16 Revolution! Feb 15 22:15:19 the N770 was release almost 5 years ago Feb 15 22:15:20 Federico89: it will run for sure, but it is unsure if it will be offically supported Feb 15 22:15:21 Overthrow the suits! Feb 15 22:15:22 ScribbleJ: Evolutoin! Feb 15 22:15:26 that isn't very "young" Feb 15 22:15:29 * jsmith can't spell Feb 15 22:15:42 lo ezjd Feb 15 22:15:50 ScribbleJ: If you're starting a revolution, I'm starting the "Radical Moderates" party. Feb 15 22:16:10 Radical Moderates. I like that. YOu guys can wear extra medium t-shirts. Feb 15 22:16:12 i'm for the "Moderate Mermen" Feb 15 22:16:14 ScribbleJ: see how they fight valid compains? Feb 15 22:16:48 Hi Stskeeps. Hanging around here too :-) Feb 15 22:16:48 lle2: Lauri, you are better than others know that regardless of SB version to be used, they are still set of hacks... Relaying on any version of SB means distro would be never self-sufficient Feb 15 22:16:56 r0b0t0, it doesn't need to be a fight. I would like to know how the community is involved in making these decisions, though, so I can register my dissent in the proper manner. Feb 15 22:17:05 ezjd: recommended :) Feb 15 22:17:14 ScribbleJ: very good point Feb 15 22:17:30 no community is involved, they are trying to exploit it.. just a plain hype, nothing more. Feb 15 22:17:36 so right, does moblin do MMS? ;D Feb 15 22:17:37 rpm haters have registered their dissent quite loudly already Feb 15 22:17:43 I thought it was a community distribution! Feb 15 22:18:03 villemv, I have not registered my dissent, and I am part of the community. Feb 15 22:18:03 ScribbleJ wring, scroll some line above. Feb 15 22:18:19 yes, but others have filled in for you there Feb 15 22:18:21 kad: SB2 did provide an opportunity to do something sensible. Instead we (Nokia) have gone and made it a very complex re-implementation of SB1 Feb 15 22:18:27 villemv, no one else can fill in for me. Feb 15 22:18:31 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=528315#post528315 <- seems like osmeone says we'll get N900 support Feb 15 22:19:01 villemv, where can I find the official place where these complaints are filed? Feb 15 22:19:25 ScribbleJ: meego-dev mailing list probably. but if it's about rpm, don't bother Feb 15 22:19:37 I'd really like to see some of the maemo.org people involved in the infra side of MeeGo. Feb 15 22:19:39 lle2: oh, common... majority of hacks for mapping paths in "devel" or "maemo" mode has nothing to do with SB1. Feb 15 22:19:47 villemv, "don't bother" is a heck of an attitude for a "community" distro. Feb 15 22:20:05 it's just that rpm issue has been beaten to death already Feb 15 22:20:07 kad: but yes, I nowadays do think that having a scratchbox-like entity involved is extremely easily leading to trouble Feb 15 22:20:25 villemv, I'd like to see what arguments were put forth. Do you have a link? Feb 15 22:20:25 villemv: and you learn nothing from it, sadly. Feb 15 22:20:38 people should just have cleaned their goddamn scratchboxisms out of the packages early on, end of story Feb 15 22:20:41 :P Feb 15 22:20:41 ScribbleJ: browse the mailing lists Feb 15 22:21:04 So there's not one coherent puch for rpm vs deb, it's just "Read the mailing lists?" Feb 15 22:21:07 Maybe that's what's missing. Feb 15 22:21:12 Stskeeps: are you going to hold a wake for sb? Feb 15 22:21:14 Someone needs to champion this goal. Feb 15 22:21:24 s/puch/push/ Feb 15 22:21:27 ScribbleJ: they are competent enough to express their reasoning behind. Feb 15 22:21:28 ScribbleJ: none of Maemo, Moblin, and now MeeGo are community distributions Feb 15 22:21:35 Stskeeps: I think that when they say it "builds on N900" they actually mean "doesn't run on" Feb 15 22:21:53 wiretapped: that's an insane statement, even though i presume a cluster of N900s could work with OBS. Feb 15 22:22:12 * wiretapped has learned to be a pessimist, having owned every maemo device so far :( Feb 15 22:22:19 wiretapped, you mean you can build it on an N900 to run on an N900+1? :D Feb 15 22:22:22 kad: My original plan for SB2 was achieved already about two years ago, all the extra stuff it does was never my intention. I aimed it mostly at application development, I never really wanted it to do more than cross-compile x.org packages against any rootfs I threw at it. Feb 15 22:22:24 Stskeeps: n900 is too slow for building. there are better boards :) Feb 15 22:22:54 thiago: where should I mail my patch to ? Feb 15 22:22:56 Stskeeps: I've been working on an OBS worker for an N900 Feb 15 22:23:17 I wonder how many n900's one can stack in a 2U rack Feb 15 22:23:46 GeneralAntilles: I expect the marketdroid who said it builds on N900 doesn't know that the word build means something in software development Feb 15 22:23:47 cabling would be the problem ;) Feb 15 22:24:20 Wouldn't that wreck the battery after a while, given that you'd have to keep the mains adapter plugged in for ages? Feb 15 22:24:26 lle2: the qemu work that's used in OBS seems to be a good approach Feb 15 22:24:37 "builds on" the way obama's afghanistan policy built on bush's Feb 15 22:24:40 lle2: well, "application development" is too unspecific term :), anyway, we can continue discussion offline some day :) Feb 15 22:24:57 vmlemon_, the charger is quite intelligent. Leaving it plugged in does less damage to the battery compared to when its unplugged and in use by the average user... Feb 15 22:25:00 lbt: I agree, I think system mode qemu + distcc + cross-compiler slaves is good way to go Feb 15 22:25:02 arjan_: I showed to Anas better boards... those you can put a lot in 2U :) Feb 15 22:25:28 kad: sure ;) Feb 15 22:25:58 lle2: I'm wondering how cross-cc is handled in rpm land... Feb 15 22:26:08 kad: but maybe n900's are easy to get ;-) Feb 15 22:26:08 having spent a while making it work for Mer Feb 15 22:26:24 lbt: you can do that with rpm (I've done it), but if you can build native it's MUCH MUCH nicer Feb 15 22:26:30 even in an emulation env Feb 15 22:26:36 lbt: I don't know, I think all rpm based distros built for ARM have been always full native builds Feb 15 22:26:37 (but that's not rpm specific, all cross builds have pain) Feb 15 22:26:38 nicer? Feb 15 22:26:47 lbt: our approach to builds probably work fine with rpm then Feb 15 22:27:01 arjan_: well, right now I can put two of those boards as workers, plus couple of dozens more might be available in short time :) Feb 15 22:27:15 lle2: we build all of Mer using cross-gcc Feb 15 22:27:41 Stskeeps: is it or will it be possible to make phonecalls with mer? Feb 15 22:27:41 lbt: and again, you can cross gcc... as long as the build doesn't try to execute just build stuff Feb 15 22:27:47 but that's true for any cross environment Feb 15 22:27:54 heh - solved ;) Feb 15 22:27:55 wiretapped: someone already did with ofono Feb 15 22:28:06 kinda bi-arch Feb 15 22:28:07 nice Feb 15 22:28:09 arjan_: Mer is using qemu to run the stuff, it's rather nifty Feb 15 22:28:20 lbt: I think it is OK to build rpm with cross-cc and OBS. But I think OBS is the key not rpm/deb. Feb 15 22:28:25 arjan_: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/Cross_Build Feb 15 22:28:30 does what scratchbox can do but without most of the problems Feb 15 22:28:41 yeah qemu for the win for this sort of thing Feb 15 22:28:41 ezjd: no, it's not OBS specific Feb 15 22:28:44 no argument for me on that Feb 15 22:29:10 I just wish people would stop bashing SB for all of Maemo's stupidities :P Feb 15 22:29:14 it's not deb either although I think the gcc packaging and the emdebian packaging made it easier for me Feb 15 22:29:23 the ony problem with qemu is that it doesn't support full instruction set of modern ARM CPUs. Feb 15 22:29:23 lle2: yeah - that's not fair Feb 15 22:29:31 kad: not far off Feb 15 22:29:31 s/ony/only/ Feb 15 22:29:43 kad: and isn't resolving that the correct design ? Feb 15 22:29:59 lbt: ? Feb 15 22:30:01 they do not understand the debian packaging so it is irrelevant to even mention it. Feb 15 22:30:28 lbt: OK. (revised) the building system is the key not the rpm/deb. e.g., Wind River Linux is based on cross-cc and rpm. Feb 15 22:30:30 kad: make qemu understand the full set Feb 15 22:30:36 what's SB? Feb 15 22:30:38 lle2: SB is not a root cause of all stupidity. just many of them :) Feb 15 22:30:51 SB = scratchbox, I think. Feb 15 22:30:54 oh Feb 15 22:30:55 ezjd: sure Feb 15 22:30:57 SB for that sake is fine, it's just what it does to packages and people's mindsets :) Feb 15 22:30:57 ptl: SB is short hand for scratchbox Feb 15 22:31:01 lbt: Or buy a buildfarm of sheevaplugs Feb 15 22:31:21 lbt: it require some considerable effort to be put in qemu to support e.g. all neon instructions without bugs. Feb 15 22:31:26 SpeedEvil: obs on maemo was just so we could fulfill the autobuilder destiny Feb 15 22:31:46 kad: agreed - but that's the place to focus the effort IMHO Feb 15 22:31:55 you guys have to remember SB originates from time when we had 100-133MHz ARM9 with 16-32MB ram + some NOR flash Feb 15 22:32:05 and use sampled parallel arm runs to identify deltas Feb 15 22:32:08 now there is 1.6Ghz arm right Feb 15 22:32:14 there about Feb 15 22:32:17 new post from jaaksi I think confirms no MeeGo on N900 Feb 15 22:32:20 "If you are a developer, develop on N900 with Qt and your apps will run on MeeGo devices." Feb 15 22:32:24 http://jaaksi.blogspot.com/2010/02/this-is-next-step-step-forward.html Feb 15 22:32:34 lbt: I don't argure with that. problem is that there are only few people who able to do that good enough :) Feb 15 22:32:42 That doesn't say that N900 will be a meego device. Feb 15 22:32:46 wiretapped: could be reading a bit too much into it Feb 15 22:32:48 * lbt wonders if intel will hire more ;) Feb 15 22:32:56 Stskeeps is our only hope! Feb 15 22:32:56 wiretapped: i.e. "develop today, it'll work tomorrow too" Feb 15 22:32:59 All the MeeGo and Qt momentum will give you many more interesting applications to run on N900. Feb 15 22:33:04 Actually I am wondering as Wind River is owned by Intel, probably they will put more effort on cross-compiling env of MeeGo. Feb 15 22:33:07 lle2: I do remember. :) somewhere in our boxes we should still have some Compaqs :) Feb 15 22:33:12 w00t: he means your software will work tomorrow, not your device Feb 15 22:33:25 wiretapped, that does not say that. It says that since N900 has QT, you can use the N900 to write apps now, and test it on N900, and it will run with minimal modifications in meego, since meego also uses QT. Feb 15 22:33:33 kad: or, if Intel/Nokia are talking, maybe Arm (another LF member) will support sbox more... Feb 15 22:33:34 and some software for MeeGo will surely be ported to fremantle Feb 15 22:33:36 wiretapped: hence I was just saying that you could well be reading it wrong. Feb 15 22:33:41 grrrr Feb 15 22:33:55 wiretapped, a couple of other statements I've read elsewhere say it may happen. Feb 15 22:34:09 The N900 is a released device Feb 15 22:34:11 MeeGo + Qt targeted stuff will work yes, but now if you go below that to the *nix subsystem I can only imagine you're screwed. Feb 15 22:34:11 it uses Maemo 5 Feb 15 22:34:15 there is little (to no?) technical reason it won't happen, it's just linux Feb 15 22:34:19 GeneralAntilles: link? seems to me it is clearly being left to the community Feb 15 22:34:25 thiago_home: that doesn't stop people shoehorning it on Feb 15 22:34:31 w00t: no, it doesn't Feb 15 22:34:31 wiretapped, there are a couple of comments in that massive thread on Talk. Feb 15 22:34:32 lbt: s/sbox/qemu/ ? because, SB should die. :) Feb 15 22:34:44 kad: yep - thinko Feb 15 22:36:30 if meego is as open as is claimed, all its good parts will end up in all the major distros, and we can run whatever we want on our phones in the future Feb 15 22:36:52 somehow I'm still feeling pretty pessimistic, though Feb 15 22:36:58 I fully expect that to be foiled by hardware manufacturers Feb 15 22:37:07 yeah Feb 15 22:37:14 wiretapped, I wouldn't count on meego being open meaning the devices will be open Feb 15 22:37:21 after all, DRM is a priority Feb 15 22:37:24 Weren't the UmBongo folks talking about an Android compatibility/run-time environment at one point? That'd be interesting to see on MeeGo... Feb 15 22:37:32 all you got would be vendor lock-in. Feb 15 22:37:35 mmm. DRM. Feb 15 22:37:39 i personally would like to see something like http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Documentation/Vendor_Social_Contract for Meego. Feb 15 22:37:50 DRM: why we can't have nice things Feb 15 22:37:52 Violating your physical property since 1972 Feb 15 22:38:01 Just what I always wanted, more DRM Feb 15 22:38:10 vmlemon_: you just didn't know you wanted more drm Feb 15 22:38:15 which means that Meego encourages open-able devices like Maemo devices. Feb 15 22:38:17 I expect that we'll see devices get a snapshot of MeeGo, tack on a little vendor specific crap, disable the repositories and root access, and call it a day Feb 15 22:38:23 Easy to subvert on some devices, though Feb 15 22:38:27 The record companies would loose trillions if it weren't for DRM! Feb 15 22:38:45 What's the GPLv3 situation with Moblin, anyway? Feb 15 22:38:45 musicians would've all stopped making music by now if it weren't for DRM! Feb 15 22:38:46 (At least for the OMA stuff - just use a browser that doesn't support fwd=no in the content type) Feb 15 22:38:48 WON'T ANYONE THINK OF THE STARVING RECORD EXECS?! Feb 15 22:38:54 *HTTP Content-Type header Feb 15 22:38:59 GeneralAntilles: very little/none Feb 15 22:39:05 * microlith still wonders if it is possible to alter the expressgate crap on his motherboard Feb 15 22:39:20 GeneralAntilles: http://meego.com/about/licensing-policy Feb 15 22:39:24 solarion: I think DRM is valuable only for porn. because music all available in non-DRM formats. Feb 15 22:39:51 kad: were you listening to the Nokia announcement this am Feb 15 22:40:04 kad: did you hear "paypal on your phone" Feb 15 22:40:14 lbt: nope Feb 15 22:40:21 I think they called it "nokia money" Feb 15 22:40:27 hahahaha Feb 15 22:40:28 that needs drm Feb 15 22:40:35 NokiCash Feb 15 22:40:48 "Trust your funds to the Bank of Nokia" Feb 15 22:40:58 have you looked at the Maemo security architecture? Feb 15 22:40:58 lbt: my personal opinion - DRM would die in next decade or so. Feb 15 22:41:06 kad: DRM for media... yes Feb 15 22:41:20 securing applications against tampering... not so much Feb 15 22:41:43 You could call it Nokia Effective Remuneration Device-based System Feb 15 22:41:51 * vmlemon_ thinks that it was a gutsy move for the Symbian folks to release not only the DRM code, but a good chunk of the stuff that deals with Microsoft's proprietary Windows Media DRM, too Feb 15 22:41:54 the security problem is very similar Feb 15 22:42:12 Not sure if additional code and/or licenses are needed to use in conjunction with it, though Feb 15 22:42:14 Or securing user content Feb 15 22:42:18 lbt: should I go for OBS stable or unstable? I'm feeling moderately brave. Feb 15 22:42:28 fnordianslip: 1.7 Feb 15 22:42:29 fnordianslip: 1.7 Feb 15 22:42:33 :) Feb 15 22:42:35 slow kad, slow Feb 15 22:42:59 lbt: emm.... nope. it's slow channels in uk :) Feb 15 22:43:05 fnordianslip: they just had the 1.7 release Feb 15 22:43:07 so go with that Feb 15 22:43:11 k Feb 15 22:43:31 fnordianslip: I setup 11.2 minimal Net installs in virtualbox - very easy Feb 15 22:43:31 vmlemon_, well the open source community has been able to decrypt Windows DRM files for awhile, but you still need the keys that go with each file Feb 15 22:43:32 * kad good night everybody :) Feb 15 22:43:35 night kad Feb 15 22:43:49 Good point there, ShadowJK Feb 15 22:43:55 I guess that there was nothing to lose Feb 15 22:44:06 And I don't think that it implements every detail, either Feb 15 22:44:11 lbt: i've got vmware workstation on the big box, so i'll go down that route Feb 15 22:44:19 (Just like the Java stuff doesn't actually implement a JVM) Feb 15 22:44:22 *nod* Feb 15 22:44:35 are you just playing? Feb 15 22:44:45 * JockeTF looks at the number of people in the channel... THIS IS SPARTA! Feb 15 22:45:20 JockeTF: sorry dude, I already made that joke a couple of hours ago Feb 15 22:45:40 20:16 < thiago_home> "This is SPARTA!!" Feb 15 22:45:51 nice Feb 15 22:45:51 we have a poll about the deb/rpm issue: Feb 15 22:45:54 ?q="Gustavo+Noronha"&v= Feb 15 22:45:56 oops Feb 15 22:45:58 sorry Feb 15 22:46:06 how long has this channel been up? Feb 15 22:46:09 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44597 Feb 15 22:46:59 thiago_home: Argh. Feb 15 22:46:59 badone: the announcement was 12 hours ago Feb 15 22:47:04 ptl, infra and technical details seem very biased towards Intel. I doubt a poll on Talk is going to have any effect. ;) Feb 15 22:47:08 just under actually Feb 15 22:47:32 thiago_home: I just guessed this channel would be here by now :) Feb 15 22:47:58 GeneralAntilles: put it in brainstorm, and you'd get results though. Feb 15 22:48:13 SpeedEvil, hahah. Feb 15 22:48:15 0 to 300 in 12 hours is impressive Feb 15 22:48:15 thiago_home: I saw your link on #qt-labs just before I went to bed Feb 15 22:48:48 yes, there seems to be a lot of interest, I personally am as excited as I get :P Feb 15 22:48:50 the poll is flawed Feb 15 22:48:58 rpm/fedora based??? where does that fedora come from ;) Feb 15 22:49:07 requires registration too Feb 15 22:49:39 even more impressive Feb 15 22:49:58 thiago_home: you're not on t.m.o. shame on you!! Feb 15 22:50:28 anyone from Apple in here yet? Feb 15 22:51:20 badone: no, but we have Symbian Feb 15 22:51:20 lbt: not everyone is a webforum fan ;) Feb 15 22:51:36 :) Feb 15 22:52:11 andres: why on earth not ? Feb 15 22:52:28 lbt: mailinglists are *so* much nicer to use ;-) Feb 15 22:52:34 I'm still boggling that we went from usenet - which was multi-client, distributed server - to webforums. Feb 15 22:53:00 Very confusing, yes. Feb 15 22:53:02 * lbt probably has amongst the highest karma/post ratios in maemo ;) Feb 15 22:53:19 SpeedEvil, usenet requires dedicated client Feb 15 22:53:31 just sent off proposal to Mer's VSC to megoo-dev, let's see how the reaction is Feb 15 22:53:34 wolf^: thats a feature not a bug. Feb 15 22:53:36 SpeedEvil, or web frontend, which makes it less useful than forum Feb 15 22:53:48 But perhaps I am old fashioned there. Feb 15 22:53:50 SpeedEvil, I'm only telling you why the move was done Feb 15 22:54:02 * vmlemon_ hands out rubber ducks Feb 15 22:54:17 Qt Marketing has asked me more than once why we still used mailing lists and FTP Feb 15 22:54:19 * SpeedEvil hands out coolaide. Feb 15 22:54:52 ftp... That one I would ask as well... Feb 15 22:54:56 thiago_home, did you tell them you'll consider moving to sftp? ;p Feb 15 22:55:03 gopher is king Feb 15 22:55:40 congratulations, guys Feb 15 22:55:48 microb doesn't support gpher Feb 15 22:55:55 gopher, even Feb 15 22:55:57 !ISO Feb 15 22:56:03 fnordianslip: Submit a bug. Feb 15 22:56:04 * thiago_home hasn't written Gopher support to Qt networking either Feb 15 22:56:14 Original WAP and WML! Feb 15 22:56:17 Why not? ;) Feb 15 22:56:29 thiago_home: sounds like a creative friday Feb 15 22:56:40 vmlemon_: you know, among the studid requirements coming from Symbian, this wasn't among them Feb 15 22:56:53 We still have EMS, too Feb 15 22:57:00 (Contributed by Sony Ericsson) Feb 15 22:57:07 * lle2 plants the requirement into next batch maemo sends.. Feb 15 22:57:10 "allow application to configure the number of requests sent per pipelined HTTP socket" was Feb 15 22:58:34 the weirdest ones were the ones on IPv6 and IDNA Feb 15 22:58:41 i take it there's no alpha ISO or image available yet for testing? Feb 15 22:58:54 BalSak1: not quite yet. we're working hard on that Feb 15 22:58:55 BalSak1: there's a website.... Feb 15 22:58:58 give it a few weeks Feb 15 22:59:14 they couldn't understand that Qt already had both and that there was no more work needed Feb 15 22:59:33 thanks guys. I saw the site, so I'm pretty eager to test. will try again in a month or so Feb 15 22:59:52 arjan_: how's IPv6 support on that image? :-) Feb 15 23:00:02 thiago_home: you are a bad marketeer then. you should have said it takes 5.4 man years to implement Feb 15 23:00:05 thiago: I have not personally tested it ;-) Feb 15 23:00:17 but we have a guy who is really zealous about ipv6 Feb 15 23:00:25 arjan_: I should meet him Feb 15 23:00:27 and he's making that stuff work no matter Feb 15 23:00:42 he's the kind of guy who puts his email MX servers on ipv6-only ;) Feb 15 23:00:49 (is good to cut down the spam fwiw ;-) Feb 15 23:01:02 ok, I'm not that far Feb 15 23:01:13 but I did have A6 records for my servers Feb 15 23:01:20 yes, the DNS RRtype that didn't take off Feb 15 23:03:01 thiago: http://www.fenrus.org/tmp/invpremul.patch <-- qt patch to make qgears go 50% faster Feb 15 23:04:09 arjan_: what? a 10-line patch? Feb 15 23:04:23 I had this idea for a great 300 line patch Feb 15 23:04:36 but sadly after I did the 10 line thing, the cpu use of the function went down from 40% to 3% Feb 15 23:04:54 I might do the 300 line one just because it's a nifty idea Feb 15 23:05:01 but I can't justify the gain for it ;) Feb 15 23:06:32 arjan_, does it have to be pixel perfect? Feb 15 23:06:43 my code does not change anything there Feb 15 23:06:49 and neither did my nifty idea Feb 15 23:06:57 it can be pixel perfect without extra cost Feb 15 23:07:25 arjan_, x * 256 is faster than x * 255, but there's quality loss Feb 15 23:07:40 it's barely faster Feb 15 23:07:47 and my idea was niftier than that Feb 15 23:07:51 in a tight loop? Feb 15 23:08:05 what I was going to do, I made this table of "multiply and shift" values Feb 15 23:08:09 the good thing is they are at least learned to arrange a dem vs rpm poll http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-dev/2010-February/000034.html Feb 15 23:08:17 which when multiplied and then shifted would do the whole 255 * a / b Feb 15 23:08:19 in one go Feb 15 23:09:07 but looks like I don't even need that Feb 15 23:09:12 256*256*4? Feb 15 23:09:24 quite big Feb 15 23:09:24 basically the "b" is the same for all three divides Feb 15 23:09:41 so I would do one lookup of the b (which is 256 entry table) Feb 15 23:09:48 and then do the whole thing as a multiply and shift Feb 15 23:09:59 (you can write any divide as a multiple and a shift) Feb 15 23:10:13 and that multiply would absorb the 255* automatically Feb 15 23:10:25 so it'd not be a new multiply Feb 15 23:11:00 arjan_: am I wrong or does the INV_PREMUL macro do the same as your patch? Feb 15 23:11:11 the delta is that I deal with the 255 case specifically Feb 15 23:11:17 so that we don't do 255 * a / 255 Feb 15 23:11:19 arjan_, fixed point basically? Feb 15 23:11:22 ah, except for alpha=255 Feb 15 23:11:31 ok, fair enough Feb 15 23:11:34 alpha=255 is the big one it seems Feb 15 23:11:35 * thiago_home sends to the ML Feb 15 23:11:52 wolf^: kinda yeah Feb 15 23:13:07 wolf^: but divides are fun that way; there's an academic paper about it Feb 15 23:13:37 arjan_, url? Feb 15 23:13:45 for example, /3 is the same as multiply by 0x5555 then shift right 16 Feb 15 23:14:20 by /17 is multiply by 0x3c3d and then shift 18 Feb 15 23:14:27 hang on let me get you the url Feb 15 23:14:37 You learn a hell of a lot by sitting down with a list of timings for each instruction, and thinking 'how can I pervert this do do x' Feb 15 23:14:38 ah crap that's at my desk at work Feb 15 23:14:47 divide is not THAT slow Feb 15 23:14:50 (like 3 cycles on a laptop) Feb 15 23:15:01 but if you do it a million times, it starts to matter Feb 15 23:15:29 arachnist, kind of :> Feb 15 23:15:34 And on embedded processors, the divide can be quite a bit slowe than on a 'proper' processor. Feb 15 23:15:35 s/arachnist/arjan_/ Feb 15 23:15:50 arjan_: making it a Git commit would be a bit too hard for you right now, right? Feb 15 23:16:02 a proper git... I can make it a commit but I can't compile test it Feb 15 23:16:06 (that takes hours) Feb 15 23:16:23 let me turn that guy into a commit form Feb 15 23:16:26 that much I can do Feb 15 23:16:43 thanks Feb 15 23:16:55 btw, Qt compilation takes 15 minutes... Feb 15 23:17:00 ... if you have a good compile farm Feb 15 23:17:13 arjan_: you mean you'd like Qt to be more modular to build.... funny that Feb 15 23:17:16 eh thiago_home? Feb 15 23:17:31 thiago: hmm my git on my home laptop hates your git tree Feb 15 23:17:45 ah now it's fine Feb 15 23:17:46 serverburp Feb 15 23:17:55 arjan_: just be thankful you don't have to wait 40hrs for an emulated compile Feb 15 23:18:06 my netbook (where I was measuring) took all night Feb 15 23:18:07 arjan_: does dividing require more processing power? :) Feb 15 23:18:24 hbons, more than multiply Feb 15 23:18:28 * thiago_home starts building Qt (from clean) Feb 15 23:18:29 hbons: divide is at least 3, and typically 10x more than a multiply Feb 15 23:18:34 not including configure, of course Feb 15 23:18:35 hbons: it depends. Feb 15 23:18:41 interesting Feb 15 23:18:52 (divide by a non-constant that is. if it's a constant you can turn it into a multiply ;-) Feb 15 23:19:01 hbons: normally that's not a big deal Feb 15 23:19:08 hbons: some CPUs throw enough silicon at the problem that you can do divide in one cycle. (effectively) Feb 15 23:19:10 but in this case it was done 4 times for each pixel on the screen Feb 15 23:19:11 * lbt works on a tachyon beam to allow Qt to retrospectively compile... Feb 15 23:19:17 someone more knowledgeable tell me: what are the UI 'good practices' for meego? Is it the same as maemo's qt? is it the same as maemo's hildon? Feb 15 23:19:18 for each frame Feb 15 23:19:29 ptl: maemo QT, for handsets Feb 15 23:19:57 arjan_: does it looks like the N900 hildon interface? Feb 15 23:20:05 or is it something entirely different? Feb 15 23:20:06 arjan_: and... for !handsets ? Feb 15 23:20:13 because I found hildon to be very good and intuitive Feb 15 23:20:16 ptl: unknown for now Feb 15 23:20:37 thiago: git clone in progress; will take some time ;-) Feb 15 23:20:45 the repo is unsmall Feb 15 23:20:47 ptl: there is a dui-demo available on the N900 which is the new Qt ui (AFAIK) Feb 15 23:20:59 thiago_home: are you that former conectiva employee to which I talked occasionally? Feb 15 23:21:34 saw you whois info, the response is yes. :P Feb 15 23:21:49 lol Feb 15 23:21:53 that's why you like RPM! Feb 15 23:22:40 arjan_: I wonder whether on could tease out a cycle or two by treating the QRgb as unsigned char[4]... Feb 15 23:22:50 ptl: nope Feb 15 23:23:03 I never worked for Conectiva Feb 15 23:23:06 heinz: the compiler does that for us already Feb 15 23:23:19 in fact the compiler will just do the inverse Feb 15 23:23:20 though I've been a Conectiva-then-Mandriva user for 10 years now Feb 15 23:23:32 byte addressing stuff is not super cehap Feb 15 23:23:33 cheap Feb 15 23:23:51 'night all Feb 15 23:23:56 Could swear you did Feb 15 23:24:06 then I'm mistaken Feb 15 23:24:48 arjan_: Qt is 200 MB Feb 15 23:24:59 arjan_: and that's less than a year's worth of history Feb 15 23:25:04 source or binaries? Feb 15 23:25:07 source Feb 15 23:25:37 just a lot of files Feb 15 23:26:25 Qt finished compiling: Feb 15 23:26:26 gmake sub-src 414,12s user 223,45s system 130% cpu 8:09,28 total Feb 15 23:27:56 http://www.fenrus.org/tmp/0001-Use-an-optimized-INV_PREMUL-in-convert_ARGB_PM_to_AR.patch Feb 15 23:28:16 arjan_: not with g++ 4.3.3 and -O3 Feb 15 23:28:47 heinz: depends on the constnat and exact types Feb 15 23:29:04 but interesting idea Feb 15 23:29:06 will check as well Feb 15 23:29:15 (it might also be different between x86 and arm) Feb 15 23:29:26 hmm Feb 15 23:29:33 will llvm be brought to maemo/meego? Feb 15 23:29:41 is llvm useful yet? Feb 15 23:29:51 never used it Feb 15 23:29:53 have a poll. Feb 15 23:29:53 I dunno Feb 15 23:30:01 yeah lets have a poll Feb 15 23:30:09 lol Feb 15 23:30:09 since clearly 500 opinions are worth more than technical facts ;-) Feb 15 23:30:37 who says the tech facts? those who learn some basic C? Feb 15 23:30:39 (don't get me wrong, as a tech guy I am curious about clang :) Feb 15 23:30:42 ptl: it can't compile Qt yet Feb 15 23:31:24 thiago_home: hope it does mature enough to do it. And with intel at that game, it just might. Feb 15 23:31:28 clang chokes in several points while building Qt, if not producing broken binaries. Feb 15 23:31:40 hey Feb 15 23:31:49 another thought Feb 15 23:31:58 nokia said maemo 6 would have optional DRM. Feb 15 23:32:04 Does meego say something different? Feb 15 23:32:18 DRM tends to be a matter of the codec to play the format Feb 15 23:32:19 like, no DRM or compulsory DRM? Feb 15 23:32:44 meego allows codecs to drm if they want, but it really is outside the scope of most of the rest of the os Feb 15 23:32:51 no, no, I mean DRM embedded to the whole platform, so either you use it or don't use the platform at all, disallowing you to tell what *your* device can do., Feb 15 23:33:06 arjan_: it's not about media playback, it's about app signing/tampering Feb 15 23:33:07 that's mostly a deployment issue Feb 15 23:33:21 arjan_: patch sent to maintainers. Thanks! Feb 15 23:33:22 you can deploy any os completely locked down (just do a signed flash partition) Feb 15 23:33:24 maemo 6 would have two brands, a drm-enabled one and the free (as in freedom) one Feb 15 23:33:37 meego itself will have security stuff Feb 15 23:33:38 I just wonder if meego will follow these guidelines Feb 15 23:33:50 ptl: meego will likely have no say Feb 15 23:33:51 security it the opposite of DRM Feb 15 23:33:52 and will come with a basically open security policy Feb 15 23:33:53 It's unlikely that it will be drm laden. It would alienate 90% of their userbase. Feb 15 23:34:00 but how it gets deployed is up to the guy putting it on the device Feb 15 23:34:01 Wouldn't they call the DRM-infested one "Maemo+" or something like that? ;) Feb 15 23:34:05 I expect vendors will work to lock it down like they try to do with Android Feb 15 23:34:06 DRM is about programs disallowing you to be the boos. Security is about you disallowing the programs to be the boss. Feb 15 23:34:13 s/boos/boss/ Feb 15 23:34:29 thiago: thanks Feb 15 23:34:37 drm is about managing your digital rights ;) Feb 15 23:34:48 (or should be) Feb 15 23:34:51 .. by handing them away Feb 15 23:34:51 yeah, right Feb 15 23:37:48 heinz: there's many ways that function could be faster Feb 15 23:37:55 but at this point its cpu use is way below Feb 15 23:37:56 What would you meegos think about going for *.deb instead of rpm? Feb 15 23:38:00 lol Feb 15 23:38:02 again Feb 15 23:38:05 round 5! Feb 15 23:38:09 sorry Feb 15 23:38:11 sandman: I'm kinda tired of that topic by now. Feb 15 23:38:16 arjan_: 48 vs 54 instructions for the byte array. that does not mean anything, but could serve as an indication Feb 15 23:38:20 understand that Feb 15 23:38:29 it's a good question Feb 15 23:38:40 I am here bitching about it too Feb 15 23:38:47 heinz: yeah agreed Feb 15 23:38:53 what did you come to conclusion? Feb 15 23:39:03 well, since neither of the names maemo or moblin survived the merger ... Feb 15 23:39:05 heinz: I'd also do my multiply trick to make it even faster (and fewer insns) Feb 15 23:39:15 ... how about ebuilds? Feb 15 23:39:16 no conclusion. :) everyone thinks the same as before, I think Feb 15 23:39:17 =D Feb 15 23:39:38 ahh Feb 15 23:39:51 arjan_: with non-const alpha? Feb 15 23:39:59 yeah even then Feb 15 23:40:03 just needs a 256 deep table Feb 15 23:40:09 so but mobiln was debian before... don't wanna go back? Feb 15 23:40:10 sandman: there's a poll! vote on it. Vote for deb, surely: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44597 - YOUR vote might change their decision! Feb 15 23:40:13 ah... Feb 15 23:40:22 ptl: thanks ;) Feb 15 23:40:28 they're all just multiply-then-shift Feb 15 23:40:44 and if the multiply absorbs the 255 * ... it's likely cheap Feb 15 23:41:10 wonder if we can get the QT guys to make QRgb a union Feb 15 23:41:16 rather than an int Feb 15 23:41:18 union with what? Feb 15 23:41:19 gotta go, bye, and meego people, change to deb, don't alienate the community, c'mon! Feb 15 23:41:24 the 32 bit int, and 4 bytes Feb 15 23:41:25 is there already an IRC log service for #meego ? Feb 15 23:41:32 anything new here since this morning that i should know? Feb 15 23:41:40 oh, typedef unsigned int QRgb; // RGB triplet Feb 15 23:41:48 sorry, can't happen... BC issues Feb 15 23:41:51 arjan_: you can make this ad-hoc in each functions Feb 15 23:41:54 sure Feb 15 23:41:56 typedefs don't get special mangling Feb 15 23:41:57 I can cast the fscker Feb 15 23:42:03 I'm sure that rpm was chosen for a reason. Feb 15 23:42:12 arjan_: be careful with strict-aliasing issues Feb 15 23:42:21 Jophish_n900_ yes, political reasons Feb 15 23:42:22 where to vote for *.deb? Feb 15 23:42:29 thiago: yeah... a union is ok for that though Feb 15 23:42:30 not any tech reasons. Feb 15 23:42:41 r0b0t0: you don't know that Feb 15 23:42:42 thiago_home: in this case it's a pass-by-copy function parameter Feb 15 23:42:45 arjan_: by copying, not by dereferencing a pointer Feb 15 23:42:47 r0b0t0: and so you're making that up Feb 15 23:42:55 but I guess you know that Feb 15 23:43:06 arjan_: unless we're proven wrong Feb 15 23:43:10 Night. I wish you folks luck with resolving your various disputes, and success with the new platform. Feb 15 23:43:12 arjan_: ??? Feb 15 23:43:15 t-tan, how so? Feb 15 23:43:25 r0b0t0: you do not know if this decision was based on technical reasons or not. Feb 15 23:43:32 r0b0t0: since I don't remember seeing you in the meetings Feb 15 23:43:53 r0b0t0: so you're completely making up the "not any tech reasons" part Feb 15 23:44:07 arjan_: if they have technical reasons, they should make them public Feb 15 23:44:13 arjan_: wrong assumption, really. Feb 15 23:45:03 arjan_: the previous change from Ubuntu to Fedora in Moblin 2 was mysterios as well Feb 15 23:45:04 t-tan: I suspect they will be made public as a result of this Feb 15 23:45:12 yeah.. need a public reason Feb 15 23:45:17 arjan_: good :-) Feb 15 23:45:19 t-tan: I need to correct you on that; Moblin did not go to Fedora Feb 15 23:45:33 but went from a "based on Ubuntu" to a self based distro Feb 15 23:45:33 arjan_: Fedora based Feb 15 23:45:39 t-tan: not even that Feb 15 23:45:46 arjan_ you are making that up now. Feb 15 23:45:55 it's not Fedora based Feb 15 23:45:56 r0b0t0: no I'm not Feb 15 23:46:12 r0b0t0: as one of the architects and developers of the base moblin .. I actually know what i'm talking about there Feb 15 23:46:15 so whats the technical reason? propriertary? Feb 15 23:46:21 sandman: ??? Feb 15 23:46:37 arjan_: good, then please elaborate Feb 15 23:46:50 we'd like to understand why Feb 15 23:46:57 a-ha Feb 15 23:46:59 (I will need to get back to this, I was involved in the confidential negotiations and do not know how much I can speak of their content in public) Feb 15 23:46:59 arjan_: gimmi your arguments if you have any sane? Feb 15 23:47:08 so there's actually someone guilty here :) Feb 15 23:47:12 of alienating users and developers Feb 15 23:47:17 sorry, couldn't resist Feb 15 23:47:19 Maemo got merged. :o Feb 15 23:47:19 ptl: oh shut up Feb 15 23:47:26 moving to rpm was a bad idea Feb 15 23:47:27 LSB. Feb 15 23:47:39 LSB does not mandate that a distro be rpm-based Feb 15 23:47:40 arjan_: you could "speculate" why someone would make such a switch... Feb 15 23:47:41 ptl: Really, rpm and deb are very similar. Feb 15 23:47:50 rpm and deb are very similar Feb 15 23:47:51 just that is has rpm installed Feb 15 23:47:52 Does the end user care about "apt-get install wesnoth" over "yum install wesnoth"? Probably not. Feb 15 23:47:56 in basixs Feb 15 23:47:59 Very, very similar end results. Feb 15 23:48:01 MikeJB: yes they are, the difference is in the tools around them and community support Feb 15 23:48:06 and policy and... Feb 15 23:48:09 MikeJB: no they are not if you have any deep knowledge with them. Feb 15 23:48:11 the end, rpm has a lot of good infrastructure and tools and policy Feb 15 23:48:14 we've discussed this in length here Feb 15 23:48:15 as does dpkg Feb 15 23:48:20 ptl: I'm a Fedora user, so arguing to me on yum sucking won't work. :P Feb 15 23:48:25 MikeJB, end user doesn't know there are any debs or rpms Feb 15 23:48:27 so then it comes down to a sum of what is important, and see who comes out Feb 15 23:48:28 arjan_: you are librarian, not an architect! Feb 15 23:48:33 I didn't say yum sucks Feb 15 23:48:37 or RPM Feb 15 23:48:51 (as long as I can package autotools projects as easily with RPM as I could with .deb I am fine) Feb 15 23:48:51 I also didn't say rpm sucks Feb 15 23:49:01 r0b0t0: if you think that trying personal insults gets you your way, you should go back to kindergarden Feb 15 23:49:49 wolf^: end user uses a PackageKit-using GUI frontend anyway Feb 15 23:49:55 Anyway, I've been using Fedora for about 5 years now and haven't had any problems with RPMs or yum, it's no big deal. :P Feb 15 23:49:58 arjan_: tell me how did you evaluate deb src 3.0 formats, to pick one for instance. Feb 15 23:50:14 arjan_: what is moblin using as libc? Feb 15 23:50:17 arjan_, my point exactly Feb 15 23:50:20 arjan_: tell me, why a public consult on that matter wasn't made? Why such an unilateral decision? Maemo is more than a Nokia and affiliates 'property', it is community-driven, the community SHOULD have been asked about this... Feb 15 23:50:21 azeem: glibc Feb 15 23:50:33 ptl: that's a question for nokia not for me. Feb 15 23:50:39 arjan_: I don't see the source for that on http://git.moblin.org/ Feb 15 23:50:44 is it hosted elsewhere? Feb 15 23:50:45 ptl: should ALL decisions about the agreement be reopened for community vote now? Feb 15 23:50:48 azeem: ??? Feb 15 23:50:51 but as you said, you're involved in that matters Feb 15 23:50:53 azeem: the GNU project hosts glibc Feb 15 23:51:00 ptl, what if the result had been a split vote? Feb 15 23:51:07 if you mean the packaging? that's in the OBS version control system Feb 15 23:51:10 ptl: I assume at this point that the community -doesn't matter to intel or nokia- Feb 15 23:51:10 arjan_: eh, Red Hat hosts it Feb 15 23:51:11 thiago_home: the important decisions like that... I could classifiy as adviseable Feb 15 23:51:14 arjan_: ;-) Feb 15 23:51:22 arjan_: the GNU projects hosts the tarballs Feb 15 23:51:23 ptl: point being: it doesn't seem like an important decision Feb 15 23:51:23 microlith: that's the problem Feb 15 23:51:26 What's going on? What's Moblin/Meego based off of? Red Hat, Fedora, Suse? Another RPM distro? Feb 15 23:51:28 (imagine that, a build system with an integrated version control system) Feb 15 23:51:35 do you think the communities could have come to a better solution? majority votes arent per se better Feb 15 23:51:36 or they intend on squeezing the community to remove non-developers and head more like an Android type environment Feb 15 23:51:37 That's the main thing I want to know. Feb 15 23:51:39 MikeJB: Meego will be it's own distribution Feb 15 23:51:42 arjan_: are you saying you're using the GNU tarballs, without any patches and no build system? Feb 15 23:51:48 ptl: it's just a packaging format. In the grand scheme of things, that's one of the least worries. Feb 15 23:51:51 mikhas: the problem is that it isn't. Feb 15 23:51:53 arjan_: I realize that, but almost every distro starts *from* somewhere and not from scratch. Feb 15 23:51:56 What's the basis? Feb 15 23:51:57 azeem: see my response above Feb 15 23:52:03 thiago_home: it might be for you, it might not be for others and that's the point Feb 15 23:52:10 MikeJB: moblin is based on moblin, they are not based on any other rpm distro Feb 15 23:52:11 they did alienate the community Feb 15 23:52:13 MikeJB: frankly, at this point moblin is it's own thing as is maemo Feb 15 23:52:14 ah, about OBS Feb 15 23:52:15 thanks Feb 15 23:52:21 this is bad policy for open-source Feb 15 23:52:22 ptl: of course people have different things in different levels of importance Feb 15 23:52:30 ptl: when you touch someone's cake, you're going to have them scream Feb 15 23:52:30 MikeJB: there's a bunch of stuff borrowed in moblin, we did not make all packages new Feb 15 23:52:41 ptl: so put yourself in my shoes and look at the bigger picture Feb 15 23:52:44 arjan_: to which current distribution (expect Moblin) is MeeGo most similar to? Feb 15 23:52:51 this is mistreating the very same people that brings them many applications Feb 15 23:53:08 t-tan: I suspect opensuse or fedora or.. well pick any LSB compliant distro Feb 15 23:53:14 LSB is dictating a lot of stuff Feb 15 23:53:21 ptl: no, it's not. In most distros, the developers are not the packagers. Feb 15 23:53:26 but frankly, the parts where LSB does not specify are quite different Feb 15 23:53:29 arjan_: Debian/Ubuntu is LSB compatible too Feb 15 23:53:40 ptl they are clueless about that... who cares if the users would spend their time fixing their systems ... Feb 15 23:53:45 I doubt that people discussing over packaging for roughly half a day, spamming MLs while they are at it etc, produce *any* apps Feb 15 23:53:45 t-tan: then those parts are the same no matter what ;) Feb 15 23:53:46 arjan_: If it's an RPM package, will stuff packaged for Fedora run on Meego? Feb 15 23:53:49 thiago_home: I try to see as a software architect, so I think: bring developers a stable platform, one on which they can rely... but Nokia keeps changing directions. First it's hildon's GTK, then QT, then it says optional support for DRM, now it's deb to rpm and possibly others with meego... Feb 15 23:53:57 As in, can I tap into Fedora's repositories? Feb 15 23:53:57 MikeJB: the binary? unlikely Feb 15 23:54:00 :( Feb 15 23:54:06 MikeJB: the source... I suspect you can build it just fine Feb 15 23:54:08 ptl: changes in direction I agree with you. Feb 15 23:54:10 arjan_: for the rest the devil is in the details Feb 15 23:54:14 but it's the same as running a xandros package on ubuntu Feb 15 23:54:19 you can't do that either Feb 15 23:54:20 ooooooo Feb 15 23:54:24 arjan_: Does Wesnoth build on it? Feb 15 23:54:24 MikeJB: if it is linked against the same libraries then yes, but the chances the libraries are the same is minimal Feb 15 23:54:31 ptl: that's a much bigger issue than the packaging format. Feb 15 23:54:31 MikeJB: sure Feb 15 23:54:35 excpet Ubuntu already has most packages, via Debian Feb 15 23:54:44 gory details .... are completely missed here. Feb 15 23:54:48 dl9pf: hi! :) Feb 15 23:55:00 hi! Feb 15 23:55:04 thiago_home: on most platforms, yet, but maemo made it easy to port and repackage a regular Linux app to maemo, and that will be greatly changed now because of the deb->rpm decision. Feb 15 23:55:13 and hildon->qt Feb 15 23:55:21 Wesnoth is my "killer app" here... if Wesnoth can compile on it, I can continue developing/testing/playing UMC on a device with meego, and thus will probably be more likely to buy one. Feb 15 23:55:25 * simula_ has decided to finish learning to package .debs anyway for ubuntu users Feb 15 23:55:31 I can't disagree on hildon->qt because I see that qt is technically superior Feb 15 23:55:34 ptl: you would steal spec files from fedora/opensuse, instead of stealing dsc's from debian ... Feb 15 23:55:39 but rpm is not technically superior to deb. Feb 15 23:55:50 MikeJB: I have not heard of WEsnoth yet Feb 15 23:55:50 ptl: so if most apps are apps specifically made for MeeGo because of the bigger UI directions, how will the packaging format be of influence? Feb 15 23:56:03 plt: now you'll have to elaborate Feb 15 23:56:06 one imporant question: if we want to port normal Linux software, which distribution's sources should we use as a basis for a port? Feb 15 23:56:12 debian is not only deb, but I doubt they know that. Feb 15 23:56:15 prusnak: and we have autopackagers as well, as long as your app uses autoconf and pkgconfig Feb 15 23:56:21 ptl: and qt is in active developement Feb 15 23:56:26 arjan_: http://www.happypenguin.org/list?sort=avg_rating <- It's the #1 actual game on Happy penguin, behind SDL and an emulator. Feb 15 23:56:28 I guess the answer is Fedora/OpenSUSE but they don't support ARM! Feb 15 23:56:37 t-tan: pristine. Go upstream. Don't take distro patches. Feb 15 23:56:42 will there be meego for eee-pc 701? Feb 15 23:56:45 t-tan: just pristine + autopackager Feb 15 23:56:51 arjan_: and I think it's the most fun game native on Linux, but if you don't like strategy it's very subjective. Feb 15 23:56:53 chickengeorge_n: that depends if someone wants to build for it... Feb 15 23:56:53 arjan_: upstream sources are automatically packaged, right? Feb 15 23:56:54 plt: they're equal - this discussion is just about personal habit(/not to say religion) Feb 15 23:57:02 i want it arjan_ Feb 15 23:57:12 r0b0t0: as long as they use pkgconfig and autoconf, we have tools to do most (but not all) of the packaging Feb 15 23:57:15 can you build it? :) Feb 15 23:57:16 man, this channel scrolls faster than i can read :) Feb 15 23:57:20 arjan_, any good tutorials for using autopackagers w/ RPM? or should I just adapt to use OBS? Feb 15 23:57:22 I'd suspect "the most fun Linux game" probably would get as many protests as saying emacs is the best code editor. Feb 15 23:57:24 arjan_ thisis completely insane, sorry! Feb 15 23:57:24 arjan_: that means we have to ignore all previos ARM porting knowledge... Feb 15 23:57:26 yeah a lotof people here Feb 15 23:57:29 thiago_home: more to learn, more to process, distros to change, developers will have to abandon even more, that'll make their work harder and less probably. They might just abandon the platform. Feb 15 23:57:35 schnupp Feb 15 23:57:36 schnapp Feb 15 23:57:38 schnipp Feb 15 23:57:42 ptl: because of the packaging format? Feb 15 23:57:45 t-tan: I hope any ARM porting you did got submitting to upstream ?? Feb 15 23:57:47 thiago_home: so the scope of meego is to have specific apps for meego platform (as android and iphone) instead of standard linux desktop apps? Feb 15 23:57:50 thiago_home: yes. Feb 15 23:57:56 ptl: not because of the UI and the changes in direction. Just because of the packaging format? Feb 15 23:58:01 deb and rpm are equivalent, I agree Feb 15 23:58:05 using them is not equivalent Feb 15 23:58:11 t-tan: so that the upstream code includes your code patches Feb 15 23:58:13 packaging them is not equivalent Feb 15 23:58:20 true! Feb 15 23:58:26 dklk: yes. The form factos are different enough that standard desktop apps will feel out of place. Feb 15 23:58:42 so this is an attempt to isolate applications into a Qt layer? Feb 15 23:58:45 dklk: they will run, but they will feel out of place. Feb 15 23:58:46 this is the big difference, which is now smashed by their automatically packaging effors! how smart. Feb 15 23:58:51 really? Feb 15 23:58:55 so you say 'no' to easy porting of linux apps to n900? Feb 15 23:59:21 arjan_: in an ideal world, but sometimes you also need to downgrade to older version etc. Feb 15 23:59:23 note: iirc madde qt creator apps don't use autoconf. Feb 15 23:59:23 I'm all for saying yes Feb 15 23:59:31 which is why we made the Qt for MAemo 5 port Feb 15 23:59:39 but still the UI layer needs care Feb 15 23:59:47 you can't put more than 5 buttons in a screen on Maemo Feb 15 23:59:50 Can't disagree Feb 15 23:59:52 it just doesn't fit (on N900) Feb 15 23:59:56 but what you said startled me Feb 15 23:59:56 javispedro: if they're sane enoguh we can even autopackage non-autoconf packages... just autoconf helps (since it effectively is a nice list of dependencies) Feb 15 23:59:58 it needs care Feb 16 00:00:04 but will it take more work now to adapt? Feb 16 00:00:18 qt creator will do the work for you as before, if you use it Feb 16 00:00:18 t-tan: openSUSE doesn't officialy support ARM, but there are openSUSE packages for ARM available. OBS has some ARM build instances running Feb 16 00:00:34 ptl: I can't say if it's more or less work. Feb 16 00:00:45 t-tan: downgrading is a sucky solution though.. I'd hate to do that, but i realize for binutils sometimes you need to Feb 16 00:00:51 :( thiago_home Feb 16 00:00:53 it seems more work. Feb 16 00:01:00 cgoncalves: I know, but it's light years behind Debian/Ubuntu ports Feb 16 00:01:06 but the point is that desktop apps (1024x768 or more @ 100 dpi, non-touch) need UI adaptations Feb 16 00:01:16 I was really scared now by your statement. Getting close to desktop linux was such a good idea, a good decision. Feb 16 00:01:22 thiago_home: ok but what about apps that has already separated backend from gui? or library + gui? why you wan't to start to repackage and maintain all library and apps universy yourself? there is now way to select and sync from debian or other distro with very large package panorama ? Feb 16 00:01:32 Steering away from it... That would be such a drawback on the merits of the former decision. Feb 16 00:01:43 t-tan: true - help us out making it better than ;-) Feb 16 00:01:55 I guess when just the packaging becomes such a "big" part of "porting" an app, it just tells you something about how portable that app is and how close to mainstream distros a distro is... the big picture is missing somewhere ;) Feb 16 00:01:57 dklk: I don't deny that's a drawback. But that's also a high maintenance cost to keep up-to-date. Feb 16 00:02:02 cgoncalves: why duplicate the effort? Feb 16 00:02:03 dklk: most apps don't have huge "weird" dependencies that aren't in the distro Feb 16 00:02:15 dklk: and once that do.. if it's autoconf it's easy Feb 16 00:02:15 arjan_ you didn't answer my question how you did evalute deb-src 3.0 format features? ever heard of these before? Feb 16 00:02:48 and yeah, Qt apps generally link to Qt only Feb 16 00:02:55 especially qmake-based ones Feb 16 00:03:12 r0b0t0: the "I do my stuff in git and don't want to deal with patches" stuff? Feb 16 00:03:12 thiago_home: UI adaptations --> easier than reprogram the entire application! Or even than to recode the entire UI part. Feb 16 00:03:20 t-tan: I won't start a distro bash... :-) Feb 16 00:03:21 arjan_: thiago_home you need to consider also security updata etc. for probably a large packages set.. let see ubuntu cannot maintain and support the full debian set Feb 16 00:03:21 sounds evil to me ;) Feb 16 00:03:35 ptl: but still a lot harder than the packaging. Feb 16 00:03:43 dklk: ubuntu does not have a very big development team ;_) Feb 16 00:03:44 arjan_: You have never heard of deb src 3.0 (git)! Feb 16 00:03:57 r0b0t0: I've seen pieces of it Feb 16 00:04:00 can't say I used it Feb 16 00:04:08 so much with the clue! thanks! Feb 16 00:04:30 any basic C or C++ questions? Feb 16 00:04:38 but why would i care? Feb 16 00:04:48 ptl: anyway, the point was that getting a stock desktop app to MeeGo is more than just packaging. Feb 16 00:04:49 does maemo use the deb src 3.0 ? Feb 16 00:04:51 thiago_home: the packaging issue has no sense also. Maemo 5 is a real platform, with a lot of software for it. Moblin is more of a specification, it's vapourware. Are there any commercial devices running moblin? No! So why follow the path of more resistance? Feb 16 00:05:00 (answer: not currently) Feb 16 00:05:00 arjan_: do you think that your team could maintain a very large package set and security update effort like in debian (i think also fedora have a subset of debian package=? Feb 16 00:05:15 dklk: "your team" you mean "the meego team" ? Feb 16 00:05:23 arjan_: yes Feb 16 00:05:42 I'm pretty confident that that can be done for the packages in meego Feb 16 00:05:57 dklk: so you normally add the debian binary repos to your maemo device ? Feb 16 00:06:01 (just curious) Feb 16 00:06:03 actually, I wanted support for 3.0 src formats in the autobuilder (the tools supported it) -- too bad :) Feb 16 00:06:07 confident. But there's a risk. Again, why the additional work? Feb 16 00:06:15 arjan_, only the lunatics Feb 16 00:06:17 arjan_: I guess you really need to publish you reasoning for choosing rpm and any other reasons behing the architecturing ;-) Feb 16 00:06:22 cgoncalves: me neither. from the Maemo viewpoint, however, there are just no compelling reasons to drop the existing system Feb 16 00:06:57 the effort on porting to rpm is a wasted effort Feb 16 00:07:03 it's lost money Feb 16 00:07:07 can't understand it. Feb 16 00:07:12 it's already done Feb 16 00:07:14 fork maemo and create maebian! Feb 16 00:07:17 it's not that hard.... Feb 16 00:07:18 Moblin already uses RPM Feb 16 00:07:23 arjan_: yes not but the problem on a new effort is to try to have a very large package base reusing the work of other comunity Feb 16 00:07:25 :) Feb 16 00:07:50 arjan_, the maemo devices don't have the diskspace on / for debian repos as-is, but there are various people who clone the OS to the MMC mass storage and run it off of that with debian repos. Or the slightly saner way of running debian chroot off of a loop device (which of course isn't impacted at all) Feb 16 00:07:53 thiago_home: moblin is not used in a practical device, it needs field experience Feb 16 00:07:54 they are competent with debian formats and policies from what I've seen so far! Feb 16 00:07:56 thiago_home: maemo is. Feb 16 00:08:06 pkgtool is clearly the solution. Feb 16 00:08:14 ptl: there are Moblin devices. Feb 16 00:08:20 ptl: don't be naïve Feb 16 00:08:38 whats the rootfs size of current mobline devices? Feb 16 00:08:42 and Maemo needs a Intel's experience too Feb 16 00:08:43 -e Feb 16 00:08:49 probably not limited as nokia's :) Feb 16 00:08:50 lets compromise! you can have .deb and we'll keep moblin's ui and gtk instead of QT Feb 16 00:08:52 thiago_home: not popular ones. Since this is a business move, it should have sound business reasons too. Feb 16 00:08:59 Maemo5 could be easily fixed to allow installation of native Debian packages (if it was truly open source) Feb 16 00:09:00 it boils down to one thing: if nokia make the hardware and do marketing which intel do the development and run the community it will succeed, if it's the other way around it will be epic fail Feb 16 00:09:06 lcuk: it's variable, depends on how many apps you install. if you install openoffice it gets big-ish Feb 16 00:09:09 :) Feb 16 00:09:18 arjan_, i meant how much is available Feb 16 00:09:20 ptl: I'm pretty sure it has sound business decisions. Even if I don't know them. Feb 16 00:09:31 ptl: the fact that those reasons aren't clear to you doesn't mean they don't exist. Feb 16 00:09:32 is there the headroom on moblin devices to be lax in the past Feb 16 00:09:35 lcuk: they're x86 netbooks. they boot from a hard drive / ssd! Feb 16 00:09:45 * lcuk nods Feb 16 00:09:50 if Maemo5 was up to date (as Maemo6 is supposed to be) and the /opt design flaw was resolved, it could be an optimal base for MeeGo Feb 16 00:09:53 thiago_home business decisions almost alwas contradict technology decisions. Feb 16 00:09:54 lcuk: some netbooks ahve 2.6Gb of space. OpenOffice on that is pushing it Feb 16 00:09:59 Clay: Deal!!! Feb 16 00:10:00 thiago_home: that's why I am discussing, I want to see if someone can come up with them Feb 16 00:10:08 i'm sure 2 GiB is _the bare minimum_ of an oldie ssd. Feb 16 00:10:10 right, so us coming from 256mb of space Feb 16 00:10:20 will moblin core fit on maemo devices? Feb 16 00:10:24 lcuk: you're not running openoffice in 256Mb either ;) Feb 16 00:10:33 arjan_, thats not my question Feb 16 00:10:34 ptl: I don't know and, quite frankly, I don't care. Feb 16 00:10:35 Feb 16 00:10:35 arjan_: is there a plan to have something like launchpad (that is already opensourced) for the meebo comunity? Feb 16 00:10:45 dklk: have you used launchpad? Feb 16 00:10:50 ptl: it may have been "Intel guys want to use RPM. Sure, I see no reason why not" Feb 16 00:10:57 or it could have been more involved. Feb 16 00:10:57 thiago_home: as long as the community cares (see the flames), it is important... Feb 16 00:10:57 (there is a bugzilla in the works, as well as wikis etc etc) Feb 16 00:10:58 arjan_: yes Feb 16 00:11:18 dklk: launchpad when we used it briefly had some nice features, but also had many issues from a project management angle Feb 16 00:11:23 ptl: personally, I think the community has blown this out of proportion. Feb 16 00:11:28 the fact is, whatever core os the meego needs it will have to squash to the maemo platform level Feb 16 00:11:36 I think maemo and moblin both use bugzilla, so the default choice will be bugzilla for now Feb 16 00:11:37 bugzilla? I could open the bug request 'meego uses rpm, please fix that and change to deb'. lol Feb 16 00:11:39 arjan_: is koji and all that likely to be used for the buildsys? Feb 16 00:11:41 whatever that level will be on release Feb 16 00:11:49 jebba: no Feb 16 00:11:51 these are not flames, but sound tech argumentation. unfortunately they are not prepared to even discuss the deb and debian features! Feb 16 00:12:00 jebba: neither moblin nor maemo use koji Feb 16 00:12:01 r0b0t0: agreed Feb 16 00:12:02 ptl: I've seldom seen a topic generate so much discussion as the distrust of RPM by people who are used to Debian-based distros. Feb 16 00:12:12 ptl: except, of course, KDE vs GNOME and Qt vs Gtk. Feb 16 00:12:14 why are people bikeshedding about rpm/deb? Feb 16 00:12:23 jebba: more the mer way Feb 16 00:12:31 because they remember using redhat from before yum, etc. existed? Feb 16 00:12:32 It could be worse, it could be bitbake and opkg Feb 16 00:12:34 r0b0t0: but I also meant that, due to the emotional level of this issue, it shows us that nokia and intel have alienated the community, creating noise where it wasn't necessary Feb 16 00:12:35 because people want their systems to be managable. Feb 16 00:12:35 ptl: it's not of today. I've been on Linux-related IRC channels for over 10 years now. Feb 16 00:12:39 jebba: OBS is used for buidling (which is a version control system integrated to a build system which has some needed features) Feb 16 00:12:40 thiago: Qt vs Gtk generated way less flames. Feb 16 00:12:43 arjan_: ya, i'm familiar with maemo system (broken/bad/old) and fedora's (pretty nice), but what is meego going to use for automated building? Feb 16 00:12:48 thx Feb 16 00:13:05 lcuk: it's the nature of bikeshedding that people argue the most about the most unimportant things Feb 16 00:13:07 maemo fits in 256mb now, there had to be compromises to get it there Feb 16 00:13:08 arjan_: there will be some relationship between gnome mobile/gnome foundation and Meego? Feb 16 00:13:09 OBS has some very nice features, like being able to link various OBS instances (even though firewalls) Feb 16 00:13:14 jebba ^ Feb 16 00:13:22 dklk: I doubt it. moblin doesn't really have that, and maemo 6 doesn't either Feb 16 00:13:24 javispedro: maybe because there the technical arguments were clear. Feb 16 00:13:32 ah, ok, i set up OBS once (a bit) and poked at it. (lcuk ya, i saw his answer upon ) Feb 16 00:13:44 javispedro: now we're replacing one technology for another of equivalent technical competence. Feb 16 00:13:52 javispedro: so all that's left are emotional arguments. Feb 16 00:14:02 thiago: I think because no one really has a clue, since IMO it is way more difficult to rewrite anything from Gtk to Qt than to repackage. Feb 16 00:14:02 OBS is very server oriented, setting up a full server might be ton of work.. but there's several public OBS instances you can play with already Feb 16 00:14:03 thiago_home: so, what your 10-year experience say? The flames don't matter? Like novell got along with its microsoft deals and such? Feb 16 00:14:16 javispedro: that's the principle of bikeshed, actually Feb 16 00:14:18 this whole "transition" seems very unilateral Feb 16 00:14:30 it would be very disastrous experience to spend bucks of a device which system is the managable enough and needs reinstalling with subsequent releases! Feb 16 00:14:30 javispedro: talk about plans to a nuclear reactor, no one comments Feb 16 00:14:34 thiago_home: from my point of view, flames do really indicate community support. On the Novell case, it lost quite a lot of community support. Feb 16 00:14:35 arjan_: so actually gnome mobile is becoming a quite death project :( Feb 16 00:14:42 thiago_home: "all your arguments are just emotional" is not an argument Feb 16 00:14:43 javispedro: talk about making a bike shed and everyone will comment on the colour Feb 16 00:15:06 don't send me PMs please Feb 16 00:15:09 say it in the channel Feb 16 00:15:11 oh no! obama's gonna build a nuclear reactor. let's flame! Feb 16 00:15:12 t-tan: reprhase: it looks to me that all that is left is emotional arguments. Feb 16 00:15:17 * ptl won't send microlith private messages Feb 16 00:15:22 I haven't seen any technical argumentation so far, so I'd assume it is just lacking. Feb 16 00:15:23 well for me it's more that I'd like to use debian binaries rather then simply the fact it's rpm Vs deb. for example who will meego's upstream be? redhat, fedora, suse, mandriva, ????, or repackaged in rpm fro scratch? Feb 16 00:15:32 t-tan: I am not convinced that using DEB presents *any* advantages over using RPM. Feb 16 00:15:49 what about disadvantages, thiago_home? Feb 16 00:15:51 why switch? Feb 16 00:15:51 or, for that matter, vice-versa Feb 16 00:15:59 bfree: that's been said many times; meego stands on its own, just like maemo and moblin basically stand on their own already Feb 16 00:15:59 bfree: meego will be its own upstream distro Feb 16 00:16:09 that's why I am saying they're equivalent Feb 16 00:16:11 going from maemo to debian unstable is a huge move too Feb 16 00:16:11 Why mess with the community and do the extra effort? Feb 16 00:16:16 why alienate users? Feb 16 00:16:21 users? users? Feb 16 00:16:22 thiago_home are you sure you know what you are talking about, deb & debian in particular? Feb 16 00:16:22 what users? Feb 16 00:16:27 can we just assume that the apps will get magically installed on the system for now, has there been technical checks on the moblin core to ensure /opt problem does not resurface Feb 16 00:16:27 there are no meego users :) Feb 16 00:16:28 why sacrifice the established application base? Feb 16 00:16:28 users don't care Feb 16 00:16:41 ptl: most users are not users yet. Feb 16 00:16:44 thiago_home: so what colour are we on now? Feb 16 00:16:47 users don't want to deak with broken system and rpm hells. Feb 16 00:16:50 w00t: purple Feb 16 00:16:51 thiago_home: red with pink polkadots? Feb 16 00:16:52 ptl: when was the last time you ran Maemo 5 on a Moblin device? Feb 16 00:17:13 thiago_home: is the N900 a moblin device? :P Feb 16 00:17:20 ptl: no Feb 16 00:17:21 is there a #meego-devel chan yet Feb 16 00:17:24 why alienate the moblin users going back to deb? Feb 16 00:17:25 thiago_home: so, never. Why the question? Feb 16 00:17:26 arjan_: sorry hadn't seen anyone say that (and as best I could tell maemo was downstream of debian) Feb 16 00:17:26 lcuk: ++ Feb 16 00:17:32 lcuk: though it's a bit early for that Feb 16 00:17:36 lcuk: give it a few days to quiet down Feb 16 00:17:37 ptl: because you are implying that only Maemo matters. Feb 16 00:17:37 no Feb 16 00:17:45 ptl: you're forgetting the entire other side of the story. Feb 16 00:17:45 i have technical questions Feb 16 00:17:48 bfree: maemo being downstream of debian is only in part so... it's changed a lot since it basically branched from debian Feb 16 00:17:51 DO NOT dismiss Moblin Feb 16 00:17:52 lcuk: then ask them Feb 16 00:17:55 i tried Feb 16 00:17:56 :) Feb 16 00:17:58 frankly, alienating all existing users of both platforms would be worth it, if they actually get their act together and put together a half decent distro Feb 16 00:17:59 thiago_home: no, that maemo has a much more mature application base and it is technically reasonable to respect that and go for deb Feb 16 00:18:02 lcuk: so what is the detail of the /opt issue ? Feb 16 00:18:10 ptl: from YOUR perspective Feb 16 00:18:17 arjan_: n900 (at least) has a small / Feb 16 00:18:18 thiago_home: what's yours? Feb 16 00:18:21 arjan_, maemo ran out of space for the core OS Feb 16 00:18:25 leaving very little for apps Feb 16 00:18:27 arjan_: 256mb, meaning, putting lots of stuff in there = no no Feb 16 00:18:30 isn't the maemo application base more mature? Feb 16 00:18:39 arjan_: as a result, applications put stuff in /opt, which is stored on a different partition Feb 16 00:18:40 N770, N800, N810, N900 Feb 16 00:18:41 that is something lots of the community werent entirely pleased about Feb 16 00:18:49 (or are *supposed* to at least) Feb 16 00:18:51 first, in meego we use a fs that supports compression (space win) Feb 16 00:18:51 i am hoping that moblin core wont have that problem Feb 16 00:18:52 ptl: four Nokia devices. Feb 16 00:18:52 ..... Feb 16 00:18:55 770! Feb 16 00:18:58 arjan_: this details the /opt nightmare: http://wiki.maemo.org/Opt_Problem Feb 16 00:18:58 yet moblin has never tried to be squashed down Feb 16 00:19:00 thiago_home: with a long history behind Feb 16 00:19:00 ptl: Moblin has a couple of devices from different vendors Feb 16 00:19:17 arjan_, UBIFS? Feb 16 00:19:27 arjan_: Maemo5 uses compressed UBIFS Feb 16 00:19:29 UBIFS rootfs is compressed on N900 Feb 16 00:19:29 thiago_home: less used, less tested, less developed, less popular, less mature. Correct me if I am wrong. Feb 16 00:19:30 btrfs for disk based things, ubifs for flash Feb 16 00:19:54 I would actually put something like /var on a separate partition, or pieces of /usr Feb 16 00:19:58 rather than put apps in /opt Feb 16 00:20:03 at least system type apps Feb 16 00:20:09 ah well, it's a long story. Feb 16 00:20:09 3rd party external apps are fine in /opt Feb 16 00:20:20 arjan_: it's generally third party stuff, not core applications Feb 16 00:20:23 ptl: I will definitely say your "less developed" is wrong. Feb 16 00:20:24 as far as I know Feb 16 00:20:33 for me the question boils down: why not port Moblin to Maemo6 and have a smooth transition from Maemo5+Moblin? Feb 16 00:20:36 there could be a filesystem that detects the flaws of using one partition for everything and corrects them on-the-fly Feb 16 00:20:43 btrfs has that btw Feb 16 00:20:49 arjan_: exactly. But that is like the rpm/deb debate. ;) They needed to be able to reflash the system and only wanted to touch the NAND, so they didn't put /usr etc on other partitions (which would hvae been nice...) Feb 16 00:20:51 thiago_home: on what account? Feb 16 00:20:53 btrfs you can add more storage by just adding a storage pool Feb 16 00:21:09 ptl: on the account that you have no clue how big the Moblin team is or how good they are. Feb 16 00:21:16 (so that the one FS can span multiple pieces of storage) Feb 16 00:21:20 damn that's a lot of people, i'm only used to small irc servers / channels Feb 16 00:21:28 thiago_home: so give me that clue, please Feb 16 00:21:31 arjan_: what's amusing about the symlink to /opt thing is that lots of people cry the same "compatibility with debian"-song as we're seeing here with RPM now :-) Feb 16 00:21:32 CosmoHill: welcome :) Feb 16 00:21:40 arjan_: what is meego/moblin using for fone? Does it have an interface to ofono, by chance? Feb 16 00:21:41 thank you Feb 16 00:21:51 jebba: ofono yes absolutely Feb 16 00:22:01 there's some UI apps on top that will be put out in the next weeks Feb 16 00:22:10 with interface already? I have ofono half working on N900 and fedora arm. Feb 16 00:22:16 ok cool. thx. Feb 16 00:22:22 afaik they even made a real phonecall already with it Feb 16 00:22:37 with one specific modem; modem drivers are "fun" as general topic Feb 16 00:22:41 ptl: I have only met a few, but the ones I have are very good people, known in the upstream communities Feb 16 00:22:47 i've done real calls with n900 + ofono + maemo using the real isimodem driver. Feb 16 00:23:04 ptl: I have a hard time pointing out one Maemo developer inside Nokia that is in an upstream community. Feb 16 00:23:09 ok good, then at least you have a driver for your modem.. that's the hard part usually Feb 16 00:23:11 jebba: not with fedora I guess though? Feb 16 00:23:14 I feel like I finally got a linux device with technically excellent and comfortable environment and now 'the suits' are spoiling it due to their closed-minded ways Feb 16 00:23:15 thiago_home: me ? :-) Feb 16 00:23:16 t-tan yours is a pretty much sane plan and I wonder what would happen when you show them the number of your poll. do you expect anything to be reconsidered? Feb 16 00:23:18 thiago_home: they all left? Feb 16 00:23:22 really disappointing. Feb 16 00:23:29 pinchartl: I don't know you :-) Feb 16 00:23:31 arjan_: do you have any information about where the connectivity management will come from? I'm thinking networkmanager equivalent software? Feb 16 00:23:37 thiago_home: nice to meet you then :-D Feb 16 00:23:42 thiago_home, I can think of several offhand. :) Feb 16 00:23:43 ShadowJK: ConnMan Feb 16 00:23:43 azeem: that's not the point. The point is I don't know them. Feb 16 00:23:51 they don't seem to make themselves known. Feb 16 00:23:51 ShadowJK: That's a joint intel/nokia project since some time already Feb 16 00:23:57 well, I knew quite a couple Feb 16 00:24:01 and the point is that you cannot dismiss the Moblin devs Feb 16 00:24:06 BlueZ, Telepathy, GStreamer, Mozilla Feb 16 00:24:15 I wonder, if i use text to speach, could i learn from this channel in my sleep... Feb 16 00:24:18 Qt ;) Feb 16 00:24:21 r0b0t0: i doubt it will change much for MeeGo but Mer could get more supporters Feb 16 00:24:35 Qt is not Maemo Feb 16 00:24:47 Erm Feb 16 00:24:47 javispedro: i can find and interact with the phone under ofono/fedora but i haven't made a call (e.g. i can power it on/off, query it, etc). No interface though. Feb 16 00:24:49 does Mer allow you to use the N900 as a mobile phone also? Feb 16 00:24:56 Telepathy and Mozilla isn't Maemo, either. Feb 16 00:25:05 s/isn't/aren't/ Feb 16 00:25:10 t-tan: a lot of what mer was trying to achieve is coming to light in meego, bikeshedding aside Feb 16 00:25:17 t-tan: yeah Mer could be a way out of that mess. Feb 16 00:25:25 jebba: I guess this is caused by all the pulseaudio / audio routing black magic? Feb 16 00:25:40 thiago_home, speaking from a position of ignorance doesn't really change reality, fortunately. Feb 16 00:26:03 GeneralAntilles: no, but taking conclusions from a position of ignorance often yields invalid results. Feb 16 00:26:06 javispedro: that's part of it, for sure. Feb 16 00:26:09 w00t there a slight but crucial difference for some users, so there is a diff. Feb 16 00:26:19 maybe they're right, but I'm convinced they're not. Feb 16 00:26:22 thiago_home, glad we're agreed. Feb 16 00:26:31 thiago_home, I maintain that you're simply badly informed. Feb 16 00:26:44 I don't buy that Maemo is more stable than Moblin. I don't buy that its application base is more established. Feb 16 00:26:47 and I work for Nokia Feb 16 00:26:54 can I just say I love the website design :) Feb 16 00:27:03 also what are the channel rules on swearing? Feb 16 00:27:08 Erm, what does that have to do with Nokia working with upstream? Feb 16 00:27:16 CosmoHill: please don't Feb 16 00:27:22 where are we having the meego summit? Feb 16 00:27:31 lcuk, in the bathroom. Feb 16 00:27:31 GeneralAntilles: nothing. Nokia should work with upstream, definitely. Feb 16 00:27:36 hehe just falled on a meego video presentation Feb 16 00:27:39 on youtube Feb 16 00:27:39 thiago_home, and they do. Feb 16 00:27:44 w00t: expect that Mer is more similar to Debian than Moblin, AFAIK Feb 16 00:27:45 thiago_home, which is my whole point. Feb 16 00:27:46 seems it's gonna be my os :) Feb 16 00:27:56 thiago_home, whether or not you're aware of it doesn't change the fact that they do. :) Feb 16 00:28:01 t-tan, ubuntu actually... Feb 16 00:28:02 GeneralAntilles: I just used the fact to point out that I easily met Moblin people who do. Feb 16 00:28:11 design is perfect guys Feb 16 00:28:14 GeneralAntilles: so Moblin's technical capabilities cannot be dismissed either. Feb 16 00:28:19 but comes from moblin but perfect Feb 16 00:28:33 i'm still searching for testing it but ... seems i'll have to wait Feb 16 00:28:34 * GeneralAntilles isn't sure what the argument is here. Feb 16 00:28:43 thiago_home: do you have any information regarding who (Nokia/Intel) will be in charge of kernel development for MeeGo ? Feb 16 00:28:54 the argument is that I don't buy "Moblin is inferior to Maemo therefore MeeGo should just be Maemo" Feb 16 00:29:08 pinchartl: on the intel side I'm mostly the person to talk to there Feb 16 00:29:15 pinchartl: Intel has a lot of kernel devs on the payroll :-) Feb 16 00:29:16 pinchartl: won't it be a join effort? Feb 16 00:29:28 I certainly hope it's going to be a joint effort Feb 16 00:29:28 pinchartl, I believe there's a guy called Linus Torvalds Feb 16 00:29:31 CosmoHill: there'll be people from both sides for sure :) Feb 16 00:29:45 it would make sense if intel do it because of their work on their graphics drivers / KMS Feb 16 00:29:48 but does it matter? You want something in the kernel, go upstream. Feb 16 00:29:56 MeeGo will upgrade the kernel eventually. Feb 16 00:30:10 can i use qt 4.5 in meego Feb 16 00:30:16 or is it just 4.6 and beyond Feb 16 00:30:26 lcuk: what's the point? Feb 16 00:30:30 lcuk: the QT team so far has recommended 4.6 to us Feb 16 00:30:32 arjan_: the press release just states that MeeGo will take Maemo's UI and Moblin core. that's very frightening for UI developers at Intel and kernel developers at Nokia. I'm sure the reality will be more complex, but some more detailed information would be nice Feb 16 00:30:33 question Feb 16 00:30:34 and since they're the experts ;) Feb 16 00:30:35 if you have 4.6, you have all 4.5 had. Feb 16 00:30:36 is all Feb 16 00:30:37 I imagine it'll be 4.6+.. but why would you need 4.5? Feb 16 00:30:48 I think the plan for Maemo5 is QT4.6 too. Feb 16 00:30:50 thiago, i thought the widget core changed? Feb 16 00:30:53 ShadowJK: that it is Feb 16 00:30:53 pinchartl: the press release starts with a sane document, then 15 layers of PR people munge it Feb 16 00:30:54 Qt3Support? :) Feb 16 00:30:54 and they werent compatible Feb 16 00:31:01 4.6 ftw! Feb 16 00:31:03 im happy to be wrong Feb 16 00:31:05 lcuk: for Maemo 5 stuff, yes Feb 16 00:31:07 there were changes Feb 16 00:31:08 javispedro: forget Qt3Support, please. Feb 16 00:31:11 i think it will be more like 4.7+ Feb 16 00:31:12 but not for pretty much everythign else Feb 16 00:31:12 pinchartl: it is for sure a joint effort, focused a bit more around upstream than before Feb 16 00:31:18 arjan_: that's the part the frightened me. I'd like to know what will happen to my job :-) Feb 16 00:31:26 lcuk: everything still compatible. Feb 16 00:31:33 lcuk: Qt 4.6 is still binary compatible all through 4.0 Feb 16 00:31:35 * w00t is off to bed Feb 16 00:31:35 yngwin, second half of 2010 is most likely still 4.6 :) Feb 16 00:31:46 night, lcuk, thiago_home and others :) Feb 16 00:31:46 Qt 4.7 is first half Feb 16 00:31:53 great \o/ does that extend back a little further to 4.0 - for "normal" things, im not thinking anything really obscure Feb 16 00:31:55 we'll try to release 4.8 by the end of the year Feb 16 00:32:00 ahhh lol yeah cool Feb 16 00:32:02 i'm looking forward to qt uick Feb 16 00:32:04 thiago_home, !!!!! Feb 16 00:32:07 qt quick* Feb 16 00:32:11 isn't it pretty obvious that Intel is responsible for kernel development for their own hardware, Nokia for those parts where we have good developers or custom hardware Feb 16 00:32:16 thiago_home... first half of 2010? Feb 16 00:32:19 except the roadmap to 4.8 is currently blank... Feb 16 00:32:21 simula_: yes Feb 16 00:32:24 wow Feb 16 00:32:31 simula_: Qt 4.7 feature freeze is *this* Friday Feb 16 00:32:42 lle2: that ought to be very clear; it may not have made the press release language as such Feb 16 00:32:42 I've not used moblin or Maemo, which one would you recommend i try out? Feb 16 00:32:52 thiago_home: any eta on 4.7.0 release date? Feb 16 00:32:53 lle2: it's not obvious from the press release Feb 16 00:32:54 CosmoHill: depends on your device Feb 16 00:33:07 it's an intel laptop Feb 16 00:33:13 yngwin: sometime later. I don't want to say for sure since it's still in flux. Feb 16 00:33:19 arjan_: yeah, it's amazing what the suits can do with mangling perfectly clear message ;) Feb 16 00:33:21 for a laptop I'd say moblin, if you said "N810" I'd have said maemo Feb 16 00:33:22 ok fair enough Feb 16 00:33:23 thiago_home, any progress on the QMultimedia framework for 4.7? Feb 16 00:33:29 * CosmoHill feels that he's gonna be looking like an idiot for a while Feb 16 00:33:37 simula_: a little. See what's in the master branch in Git. Feb 16 00:33:48 CosmoHill: maemo won't run on anything other than the nokia tablets which come with it Feb 16 00:33:48 thanks thiago_home Feb 16 00:33:57 thanks arjan_ and ali1234 Feb 16 00:34:12 wow! this was something... i want to thank everyone participating. It was a mangling Feb 16 00:34:17 CosmoHill: although you can sort of emulate it with the maemo sdk Feb 16 00:34:56 hm, that's a bonus, with OBS the confusion between SDK and emulator will go away. Feb 16 00:35:05 CosmoHill: one word of warning; the moblin builds depend on really good graphics support (for clutter etc); so far we only have that for intel graphics Feb 16 00:35:13 I suspect ATI will be ready in a month or two for this Feb 16 00:35:16 someone should explain, on the FAQ, why meego's using RPM. there was a good explanation earlier on the mail list. people are still calling meego fedora based, but at least that's answered on the FAQ. not the RPM thing Feb 16 00:35:18 arstechnica has featured the merger now: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/02/intel-and-nokia-unite-their-linux-platfroms-to-create-meego.ars Feb 16 00:35:28 i have an nvidia 9300m GS Feb 16 00:35:37 (yes, I'm getting ready to ditch any meego mail that references rpm in the subject by default ;) Feb 16 00:35:43 CosmoHill: hmm then you'll need a bunch of manual stuff ;-( Feb 16 00:35:46 azeem: yeah, and Ryan also put his finger on the RPM-vs-DEB thing Feb 16 00:35:59 CosmoHill: nvidia linux support is ... well nouveau is barely getting there now Feb 16 00:36:01 azeem: though he said APT, and that's nonsense. Feb 16 00:36:21 Hm, offtopic but, how's ati hw decode under linux? Feb 16 00:36:39 and no kms either Feb 16 00:36:58 i should probably introduce myself a little Feb 16 00:37:30 I'm cosmo (that will set off my highlight), 20 student from the UK and I've done a little work on the Cross LFS project Feb 16 00:37:47 I've built linux on intel x86, x86_64, Ultrasparc and PPC Feb 16 00:38:23 thiago_home: do you really think apt4rpm will be on this? Feb 16 00:38:39 arjan_, thiago_home: is it fine with you if you I put an unabridged IRC log of your previous comments about MeeGo online? Feb 16 00:38:42 arjan_, you say you have good graphics on intel, would it make liqbase go faster on moblin than on my nokia i wonder Feb 16 00:39:13 azeem: I have no clue Feb 16 00:39:19 t-tan: I tend to consider that kinda rude, it makes things get out of context Feb 16 00:39:25 azeem: but I doubt it'll be apt4rpm Feb 16 00:39:30 whats the cheapest current moblin device? Feb 16 00:39:47 t-tan: so I would prefer not; irc and web are just not the same context, and cut-and-past from web is too easy to put words in someones mouth Feb 16 00:39:56 arjan_: including all context, of course Feb 16 00:40:32 t-tan: I've been bitten by people who said that before; they just had someone else cut the web version in pieces. Feb 16 00:40:56 arjan_: do you think there will be an equivalent document which answer such questions of the community? Feb 16 00:41:08 arjan_: or could you post the IRC log? Feb 16 00:41:30 it was some good stuff said Feb 16 00:41:32 t-tan: there will be a document Feb 16 00:41:38 azeem: I don't think anyone is using apt4rpm seriously Feb 16 00:41:43 t-tan: just it needs to be not-a-holiday to get that approved Feb 16 00:42:03 the last one to do that was Conectiva, before they switched to smart, which was before the Mandrake merger in 2005 Feb 16 00:42:06 thiago_home: right, that's what I mean Feb 16 00:42:12 so I don't see meego using it either Feb 16 00:42:22 arjan_: ok, thanks. It would be really helpful for the community Feb 16 00:42:29 I spoke with some Conectiva guys back then.. and they did not like apt4rpm; they shipped it but had many issues Feb 16 00:42:44 sorry but : MeeGo will use the .rpm format!!!! WTF!!!!!! Feb 16 00:42:54 arjan_: yeah, that's why the smart project was created. Feb 16 00:42:54 hahahahahahaha Feb 16 00:43:00 I've been using it ever since. Feb 16 00:43:10 so many and so happy happy users Feb 16 00:43:12 rpm? cool Feb 16 00:43:13 Ryan's point is more about a package manager below the "PackageKit/Ubuntu Software Center" level, I doubt meego will have one Feb 16 00:43:13 thiago: and nowadays most stuff uses packagekit Feb 16 00:43:17 kanibalv: you just missed an epic battle Feb 16 00:43:20 where do i buy a moblin device from? Feb 16 00:43:23 will there a conclusion of this discussion available somewhere. How will we manage dicisions e.g. deb/rpm, qt/gtk etc. ? Feb 16 00:43:30 :P Feb 16 00:43:31 lcuk: a very good question :) Feb 16 00:43:35 lcuk: dell has one, samsung and lsi do too Feb 16 00:43:37 lcuk: depends on the country you're in Feb 16 00:43:41 well theres none on sale in google shapping Feb 16 00:43:42 lcuk: but any netbook with gma950 will works Feb 16 00:43:43 UK Feb 16 00:43:49 play.com ? Feb 16 00:43:51 i dont want toinstall Feb 16 00:43:57 i want to buy with OS on like maemo Feb 16 00:44:05 lcuk: dell, samsung, msi. Feb 16 00:44:13 no fuc#$# way I´ll made a rpm package Feb 16 00:44:20 hehehe Feb 16 00:44:22 some others as well, but those tend to be asia only Feb 16 00:44:24 I've made them Feb 16 00:44:38 :S Feb 16 00:44:56 so in the UK i have to buy a machine with windows or something Feb 16 00:44:59 lcuk: installing it isn't hard, you just copy the iso to a usb stick and plug it in Feb 16 00:45:00 andvape it? Feb 16 00:45:10 lcuk: I'll have a look for you Feb 16 00:45:14 lcuk: i did it on my aspire one which came with linspire or whatever Feb 16 00:45:15 ali1234, i know its not hard Feb 16 00:45:18 http://moblin.org/documentation/test-drive-moblin/using-moblin-live-image Feb 16 00:45:21 but its not something i want to do Feb 16 00:45:22 I bet that on April 1st the meego frontpage will announce the switch to slackware .tgz packages >;D Feb 16 00:45:25 lcuk the best thing you could do is to complain to intel and nokia and have these decision makers fired out! Feb 16 00:45:30 and the installer can shrink XP Feb 16 00:45:39 r0b0t0, i wasnt tryign to complain Feb 16 00:45:48 i wanted to see how good the intel graphics you mentioned were Feb 16 00:45:51 lcuk: i had mpblin on my eee901 Feb 16 00:45:53 I'm pretty sure dell sells in the UK as well Feb 16 00:45:59 moblin, even Feb 16 00:46:02 it sucked Feb 16 00:46:05 lcuk: they're the same as on any other linux distro on the same hardware Feb 16 00:46:09 but dell tends to hide their linxu stuff in the UX; you may need to search hard for it Feb 16 00:46:12 "SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10" what the hell kinda netbook is that Feb 16 00:46:15 ali1234, thats not the point Feb 16 00:46:22 lcuk: it's totally the point Feb 16 00:46:30 not really Feb 16 00:46:33 moblin is an os Feb 16 00:46:39 i wantto buy a computer with it? Feb 16 00:46:50 arjan_: are you part of the moblin kernel development team by any chance ? Feb 16 00:47:00 lcuk: you can buy a dell, get to windows install page, refuse the lisence and claim your money back for windows Feb 16 00:47:07 pinchartl: I do that part time; I have various roles in moblin Feb 16 00:47:10 i dont want to install my own os Feb 16 00:47:35 ok, i will pay someone to build me a cheap moblin machine Feb 16 00:47:43 a netbook? Feb 16 00:47:51 something running moblin Feb 16 00:47:55 properly Feb 16 00:47:56 as intended Feb 16 00:48:00 arjan_: do you know if some moblin kernel developers (especially the ones working on video input) will attend the embedded linux conference in San Francisco in April ? Feb 16 00:48:01 lcuk: its that easy why to pay for? Feb 16 00:48:03 hmm Feb 16 00:48:13 pinchartl: hmm not so sure. Feb 16 00:48:22 you want a netbook or nettop? Feb 16 00:48:27 lcuk it does not work out of the box? Feb 16 00:48:37 pinchartl: I'm not sure we have many people really working on video input Feb 16 00:48:40 when i bought my n810 it came with maemo on it Feb 16 00:48:49 consider me a n00b Feb 16 00:48:54 arjan_: I don't need many. 1 or 2 will be enough :-) Feb 16 00:49:01 pinchartl: haha Feb 16 00:49:02 lcuk: if you won't want to install the OS on it, how are you going to put meego on it when it comes out? Feb 16 00:49:15 lcuk: did you install maemo 5 on it ? Feb 16 00:49:21 lcuk: you find your way here, so your maybe "advanced" ;) Feb 16 00:49:30 CosmoHill, you are seriously telling me that meego will not be on devices? Feb 16 00:49:40 O_O Feb 16 00:49:42 arjan_: maemo 5 only runs on n900 which obviously comes with it preinstalled Feb 16 00:49:46 no Feb 16 00:49:49 the n900 comes with it Feb 16 00:49:50 that was not what i meant Feb 16 00:49:56 i mean if you buy a device now Feb 16 00:50:00 i buy a windows machine Feb 16 00:50:02 it has windows Feb 16 00:50:18 i buy a maemo machine, it has maemo Feb 16 00:50:32 i want a moblin machine so i can see OS as intended? Feb 16 00:50:44 so i know what sorts of things it does Feb 16 00:50:48 and what its good at Feb 16 00:50:54 * pinchartl is off to bed Feb 16 00:50:57 i acquire machines and install what i want on them :) Feb 16 00:50:59 night pinchartl Feb 16 00:51:02 g'night everybody Feb 16 00:51:05 thanks Feb 16 00:51:22 pinchartl: night Feb 16 00:51:24 * lcuk wanders off scratching head too Feb 16 00:51:26 lcuk just install debian or ubuntu or it and be done with that. Feb 16 00:51:28 I always end up worrying too much about whether the ethernet will work, whether the wireless will work, etc :/ Feb 16 00:51:39 wireless is a pain at times Feb 16 00:51:43 get a mac Feb 16 00:51:47 Ubuntu on an Intel desktop machine and Maemo on the Phone... that is tha shiit! Feb 16 00:51:47 although nowadays, all but broadcom works Feb 16 00:51:53 @all good night everybody Feb 16 00:51:57 fnordianslip, well I don't know if it will work on the mac hardware either Feb 16 00:52:19 r0b0t0, so moblin currently offers nothing new that ubuntu does? Feb 16 00:52:22 who cares. snow leopard is fine Feb 16 00:52:36 fnordianslip: yyeeeahh :D Feb 16 00:52:39 ask moblin support they know better. Feb 16 00:52:43 lcuk: how about you try it? Feb 16 00:52:49 you can try it without installing as well Feb 16 00:52:50 fnordianslip: tell this to all my lost data :D Feb 16 00:52:50 lol Feb 16 00:52:54 although i do miss powerpc Feb 16 00:53:23 snow leaopard has bad compatibility.. heard many complaints Feb 16 00:53:41 now i gotta sleep before i start another flame war Feb 16 00:53:43 seems ok on my macbook pro Feb 16 00:53:46 works fine for me for playing music Feb 16 00:53:47 who's in charge of MeeGo UI/UX design. anyone knows? Feb 16 00:53:59 good night Feb 16 00:54:16 lcuk: I'm going to try and put mobin on my laptop Feb 16 00:54:22 lcuk, in terms of performanc of liqbase I'd imagine Ubuntu and Moblin would be identical in performance, or whichever is newer would be faster.. Feb 16 00:54:25 wazd: each company themselves when they create their products based on it Feb 16 00:54:31 wazd: hello Feb 16 00:54:39 (liqbase is all Xvideo, right?) Feb 16 00:54:40 ubunutu have a netbook version now Feb 16 00:54:51 hbons: hi Feb 16 00:55:10 wazd: not in charge, but i do work on it Feb 16 00:55:10 lle2: what company creates what? Feb 16 00:55:38 hbons: cause I'm a UI/UX designer myself, so maybe I can help or something Feb 16 00:55:52 wazd: nice Feb 16 00:55:55 wazd: a company (like Nokia) takes MeeGo as the basis, then adds its own UX design, then sells. Feb 16 00:55:57 hbons: http://tabletui.wordpress.com/ Feb 16 00:56:32 lle2: so there can be 2 netbook variations and 2 phone variations at least? Feb 16 00:57:02 wazd: as far as I know, MeeGo is only a promise on the API level, nothing in the UX Feb 16 00:57:05 wazd: cool, stick around, we can always use ui contributors Feb 16 00:57:40 hbons: I'm always around :) Feb 16 00:58:01 wazd: so there's no limit on the number of variations possible, completely up to those companies releasing products using it. Feb 16 00:58:42 lle2: ok, thanks Feb 16 00:59:11 hbons: on what "side" are you working btw, netbooks or handhelds? Feb 16 00:59:16 lle2: so the current concept of community respositories will largely be impossible, no? Feb 16 00:59:27 microlith: uhh??? Feb 16 00:59:31 wazd: both Feb 16 00:59:37 anyone know how to burn moblin to CD from OS X? Feb 16 00:59:46 hbons: oh, that's hell of a job Feb 16 00:59:52 CosmoHill: name the file .iso and then right click it Feb 16 00:59:56 CosmoHill, Disk Utility Feb 16 01:00:06 thoguth so Feb 16 01:00:07 microlith: the point is that the APIs are compatible, but the theme etc may not be Feb 16 01:00:10 microlith: If they are "well designed" applications, they ought to run on all/most hardware, so that should not prevent a useful community repository Feb 16 01:00:14 thanks :) Feb 16 01:00:15 wazd: the team is bigger, but it's still a lot of work yes :) Feb 16 01:00:53 MeeGo should assimlilate Pandora also Feb 16 01:01:05 i read that as Assassinate Feb 16 01:01:09 uhsf: Pandora is not a software platform Feb 16 01:01:14 assimilate/merge Feb 16 01:01:23 damn mac Feb 16 01:01:26 uhsf: it's just a hardware Feb 16 01:01:32 CD goes in, CD comes out Feb 16 01:01:52 CosmoHill: it says "you don't need this CD right now" Feb 16 01:01:52 wazd: doesn't pandora have software running on the hardware? Feb 16 01:01:52 this is one thing i can't fix with tape Feb 16 01:01:57 CosmoHill: :D Feb 16 01:02:15 it says "don't buy maxell" Feb 16 01:02:17 uhsf: it runs Ubuntu as i remember Feb 16 01:02:31 oh it's 750MB Feb 16 01:02:38 so it would be a DVD Feb 16 01:02:47 Okay... I'm still curious about the guts of this OS. None of the news stories are written by Linux geeks. Feb 16 01:03:06 guts you say? Feb 16 01:03:08 MikeJB: please ask questions ;) Feb 16 01:03:14 might be easy to answer ;) Feb 16 01:03:15 hbons: any concepts visualized already? Feb 16 01:03:20 What comes from Moblin and what comes from Maemo? Feb 16 01:03:22 damn mac, TY not good for you either? Feb 16 01:03:26 * CosmoHill shakes fist Feb 16 01:03:30 MikeJB: first of all, there's about 80% common Feb 16 01:03:36 And does Maemo 6 become Meego 1? Feb 16 01:03:38 MikeJB: so that part is sort of assumed Feb 16 01:03:42 linux+glibc+Xorg+Qt, good enough summary? Feb 16 01:03:51 MikeJB: then there's pieces around phone specific stuff which comes from maemo Feb 16 01:03:58 MikeJB: and netbook specific stuff which comes from moblin Feb 16 01:04:00 MikeJB: what would you do if I told you you can built linux from a load of source files? Feb 16 01:04:08 wazd: you know moblin netbook? Feb 16 01:04:16 hbons: sort of Feb 16 01:04:23 MikeJB: then things like the media indexer (Tracker) are coming from Maemo Feb 16 01:04:27 I guess there's a bit of a fear of fragmentation in the "vendor differentiation" parts. On the face of it coming from maemo's POV, it's no loss really, since maemo as it is now only runs on one set of device anyway. There's the potential for consumer confusion if Meego takes off and suddenly there's a zillion different variants of meego, all subtly incompatibly with eachother :) Feb 16 01:04:30 MikeJB: while the early boot stuff for now comes from Moblin Feb 16 01:04:34 hbons: moblin 2 Feb 16 01:05:00 wazd: that's the only public thing for now Feb 16 01:05:05 MikeJB: you'd be surprised how much is in common ;) Feb 16 01:05:13 CosmoHill: I've heard of Linux From Scratch, and if I ever had a boring summer and a PC I'd know it would work on I might try it... Feb 16 01:05:20 could/c Feb 16 01:05:24 ah Feb 16 01:05:26 MikeJB: does that help you a bit ? Feb 16 01:05:33 yeah Feb 16 01:05:33 I'm the IRC admin for that channel :) Feb 16 01:05:35 arjan_: SDK? Feb 16 01:05:43 MikeJB: the SDK comes from Maemo 6 Feb 16 01:05:49 but with some tweaks to make it work Feb 16 01:05:50 ShadowJK: There should be no confusion as the MeeGo API will be well defined. either the applications adhere to it, or they don't. If they don't they are not MeeGo apps. Feb 16 01:05:54 I tried to install the Nokia SDK for Maemo and it failed... Feb 16 01:05:59 So I hope the new SDK works on Fedora 12 :P Feb 16 01:06:14 I was going to try again with the Maemo SDK but after the merger today I might just wait. Feb 16 01:06:32 meego was only created today? Feb 16 01:06:54 CosmoHill: no. Feb 16 01:06:55 hbons: ok then Feb 16 01:06:56 What's appealing about /s/Maemo/meego is basically the GUI is the only thing that needs to change to port something, just making it small-screen and touch-friendly. Feb 16 01:07:06 MikeJB: *exactly* Feb 16 01:07:07 CosmoHill: It was concieved several months ago probably between intel and nokia Feb 16 01:07:18 CosmoHill: it was announced today. Feb 16 01:07:21 only it was annouced today Feb 16 01:07:22 cool Feb 16 01:07:24 I'd say it's been brewing since ofono Feb 16 01:07:24 jaunty is the only officially supported distro for the Maemo5 SDK AFAIK. Feb 16 01:07:38 "just making it small-screen and touch-friendly" <= just?! Feb 16 01:07:42 hehe Feb 16 01:07:44 lol Feb 16 01:07:48 I am not a big fan of Java... so Meego'll be better than the other mobile Linuxes Feb 16 01:07:55 hbons: you're talking bout this? http://bergie.iki.fi/static/7/78b3deca724111dea5136de2c725b405b405_moblin2-myzone.jpg (just to clarify) Feb 16 01:07:56 just checking, nokia are still suing apple right? Feb 16 01:08:08 wazd: yea Feb 16 01:08:08 mikhas: it can be almost no work (if you're writing a database backend) or a lot of work (if your app is pretty much only UI) ;-) Feb 16 01:08:11 A 'dual mode' OS - that you can use in two modes would be awesome. Feb 16 01:08:14 wazd: nice Feb 16 01:08:14 CosmoHill: Maemo + Moblin = Meego Feb 16 01:08:24 wazd: here's the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsCpIeLLoT8 Feb 16 01:08:25 Plug in display and mouse and keyboard, and you have a 'proper' computr. Feb 16 01:08:27 Maemo = phone, Moblin = netbook/tablet, and both have a lot of Linux code in common Feb 16 01:08:32 arjan_: Correct? ^ Feb 16 01:08:33 if that's so easy: where is my fingerfriendly OOffice? Or my fingerfriendly Feb 16 01:08:34 o/ hello Feb 16 01:08:40 MikeJB: yeah Feb 16 01:08:44 i read on phornix, came to the website and found the channel Feb 16 01:08:47 MikeJB: at least 80% if not more Feb 16 01:08:59 lle2, so for example for "WLAN tethering (joikuspot type thing)", you'd be pretty far away from the "MeegGo API"? :) Feb 16 01:08:59 SpeedEvil: the screen size as well of course ;-) Feb 16 01:09:02 ok.... Feb 16 01:09:14 desktop apps happen to have lot of UI code, sadly Feb 16 01:09:22 that's a bit silly actually, assuming device would be cellular.. Feb 16 01:09:25 somehow, that's ... their nature =) Feb 16 01:09:28 yeah Feb 16 01:09:31 jeje Feb 16 01:09:42 at least with qt and some scripting stuff it is a little easier Feb 16 01:09:48 arjan_: one last question Feb 16 01:09:57 ShadowJK: could be ;) I'd need to spend more time thinking about that to provide a full answer. 3am... Feb 16 01:10:06 arjan_: http://i.zdnet.com/blogs/nokia-strategy.png?tag=col1;post-2506 <- what the heck does this mean? Feb 16 01:10:24 that's more a question for someone from nokia Feb 16 01:10:34 but it looks like they position their linux devices for the higher end Feb 16 01:10:43 :o Feb 16 01:10:47 That's really a first. Feb 16 01:10:49 indeed Feb 16 01:10:50 which is fair enough Feb 16 01:10:53 the same old story: meego for premium devices, s40 for low end Feb 16 01:10:57 Normally Linux winds up on lower end and they think higher end people want Windows :P Feb 16 01:11:16 hehe Feb 16 01:11:20 big buck bunny, that thing gets everywhere Feb 16 01:11:21 Name a $1,000+ non-server device that doesn't need to be "liberated" :P Feb 16 01:11:45 MikeJB: ford focus\ Feb 16 01:11:46 mikhas, S40 should be phased out in the long term. Feb 16 01:11:52 that picture has very little new, just replaced Maemo with MeeGo Feb 16 01:12:09 GeneralAntilles: phasing out software is *hard* Feb 16 01:12:12 hbons: thanks Feb 16 01:12:14 esp if the cost is basically zero ;) Feb 16 01:12:23 GeneralAntilles, well one they get Symbian as responsive as S40 ;-) Feb 16 01:12:28 GA, nothing that spells "money for free" is ever phased out =) Feb 16 01:12:36 once* Feb 16 01:12:51 GeneralAntilles: It's going to be a while till the bottom end phones get meego Feb 16 01:13:00 Maybe intel could sell Nokia some Atom to run Symbian on, then it'd be as speedy as S40 ;D Feb 16 01:13:10 do you think meego would be distrobutited via bittorrent as well as download? Feb 16 01:13:12 * MikeJB is hoping that one day Symbian gets phased out for a polished Meego... Feb 16 01:13:12 running s40 on atom Feb 16 01:13:15 now there's an idea ;) Feb 16 01:13:16 SpeedEvil, Symbian ^3/^4/^8/whatever Feb 16 01:13:24 I'd love if 10 years from now all the mobile OSes were Linux-based Feb 16 01:13:26 CosmoHill: we did before with Moblin.... Feb 16 01:13:34 CosmoHill: BT has some advantages but also some downsides Feb 16 01:13:35 that's a big dream Feb 16 01:13:46 Well, it just requires iPhone and WinMo to fail. Feb 16 01:13:47 CosmoHill: at least in the US, Various ISPs squeeze BT traffic hard Feb 16 01:13:51 The rest are pretty much Linux-based already. Feb 16 01:13:57 Isn't even Bada linux-based or something? Feb 16 01:14:03 arjan_: i meant to have both, like ubuntu do Feb 16 01:14:08 Doesn't matter, my current Samsung phone is crap so I probably won't buy Samsung again Feb 16 01:14:23 MikeJB: my mum has one and it's stupid Feb 16 01:14:26 CosmoHill: again we used to; but the effectiveness at least n the US is low Feb 16 01:14:27 (calling android linux-ish is ... stretching it a bit) Feb 16 01:14:30 (and mirrors kept up) Feb 16 01:14:35 I have a sony ericsson and it's cosmo proof Feb 16 01:14:42 mikhas: Android is Linux-ish, just not GNU/Linux... :P Feb 16 01:14:49 symbian will never go away its too big with many corporate backers and massive number 1 in marketshare Feb 16 01:14:53 I'm not one of those "GNU/Linux" naming nuts, but here the distinction is necessary. Feb 16 01:14:53 that's what people usually associate with linux Feb 16 01:15:01 and even in the strict sense it isnt Feb 16 01:15:14 Android isn't GNU/Linux, even though it uses the Linux kernel. Feb 16 01:15:21 odd question, if I say i use windows, will i be shot? Feb 16 01:15:25 it's a patched linux kernel w/ patches that dont go upstream Feb 16 01:15:28 CosmoHill: Yes. Feb 16 01:15:36 Tranquilizer, only. Feb 16 01:15:38 CosmoHill: I keep linux contained in VMs Feb 16 01:15:43 * CosmoHill hides his MSDA-AA account Feb 16 01:15:46 While the local LUG approaches your computer... Feb 16 01:15:47 lcuk: sssh, don't tell them you use VB Feb 16 01:15:50 "Format C:\" Feb 16 01:15:52 *MSDN Feb 16 01:16:36 That's okay, though, I have to keep Windows (Vista) installed on my laptop because my classes sometimes reqire it (like one this semester) Feb 16 01:16:41 ShadowJK, haha ;) but its fact of life, most users in the world dont wanna install their own os Feb 16 01:16:42 So I can't say I'm a Linux-purist... Feb 16 01:16:44 mobin has a nice connection, 300Kb/s download Feb 16 01:16:50 It's hard to be a Linux-purist without a virutalization-capable computer. :P Feb 16 01:17:11 * ShadowJK use the virtualization capabilities of his computer to run Ubuntu+MaemoSDK on his Fedora install Feb 16 01:17:15 Oh, are there Intel people here? Feb 16 01:17:16 my intel computer is one of 3 models with intel VT removed Feb 16 01:17:20 MikeJB: I work for Intel Feb 16 01:17:26 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbifmRBBN6Q Feb 16 01:17:29 arjan_: :o Feb 16 01:17:29 Great commercial. Feb 16 01:17:41 One of the few that had me smiling... most of them were stupid and involved pantlessness... Feb 16 01:17:42 * CosmoHill now conciders you shiny Feb 16 01:18:01 * CosmoHill sees the word Super Bowl and closes the window Feb 16 01:18:01 or trying to use a supermodel-in-a-hottub to hype up an underpowered crap phone... :P Feb 16 01:19:15 arjan_: Good commercial, though. Feb 16 01:19:33 'cuz people on IRC channels for Intel definitely have a hand in marketing ;) Feb 16 01:19:50 hahaha . no. Feb 16 01:20:05 we have intel adverts with like 50 employees in them Feb 16 01:20:22 "our rock stars aren't like your rock stars" Feb 16 01:20:28 and how the co-inventer or USB Feb 16 01:21:17 I think USB is one of the most underhyped major inventions in the history of computing ever. Feb 16 01:21:39 Remember the days when printers, mice, keyboards, and just about everything else had their own proprietary port? Feb 16 01:22:04 it was mostly scsi, parallell port and serial port.. Feb 16 01:22:05 like ... uhm wait ... RS232? Feb 16 01:22:15 and keyabod Feb 16 01:22:17 board Feb 16 01:22:20 * SpeedEvil stabs USB for lack of vision. Feb 16 01:22:21 Hello! I'm sure this has been mentioned 100x but I didnt see it on the website FAQ -- is Meego going to be using Hildon? Feb 16 01:22:25 and token rong Feb 16 01:22:34 zgold: is maemo 6 going to be using hildon? Feb 16 01:22:43 * CosmoHill would like firewire Feb 16 01:22:45 arjan_: I was under the impression it would Feb 16 01:22:49 zgold: the answer is "no", although we likely ship compat libraries Feb 16 01:22:55 It took about 5 years before the chipset makers stopped making unusable buggy USB chipsets though, and still today we get buggy hubs, buggy devices and buggy chipsets.. but they're getting rarer, thankfully.. Feb 16 01:22:59 USB 3.0 > Firewire Feb 16 01:23:00 I think. Feb 16 01:23:07 zgold: maemo 6 is QT afaik, and maemo 5 is not hildon either I tihnk Feb 16 01:23:09 If USB had a 'high power' mode - you plug shit into a 'high power' hub - and it can power it at 30V@0.5A - then most wallwarts would go away Feb 16 01:23:11 arjan_: so should we expect maemo6/meego UI to look like maemo5 at all? (with the 2d panaram desktops and all) Feb 16 01:23:18 arjan_: maemo 5 very much is a hildon device Feb 16 01:23:22 firewire s3200 > usb 3 Feb 16 01:23:38 neither of which i have Feb 16 01:23:43 Lights Peak! Feb 16 01:23:43 USB 4.0 > current Firewire, then ;) Feb 16 01:23:59 zgold: maemo 5 is the last hildon utilizing Maemo release, further releases may provide compatibility Feb 16 01:24:18 zgold, the UI effects are pretty irrelevant to whether QT or hildon is used.. Feb 16 01:24:28 qt... meh Feb 16 01:24:32 ShadowJK: thats understandable, but i kinda like the maemo 5 look +P Feb 16 01:24:35 i think for about £20 you can get USB 3.0 and SATA 3Gb/s PCI-E controller Feb 16 01:24:38 As a GNOME-user, most qt apps seem... alien when I run them. Feb 16 01:24:50 Maemo4's hildon had just one desktop, and people liked that look too :P Feb 16 01:25:02 how the apps look is completely, absolutely separate from the toolkit Feb 16 01:25:06 97% :D Feb 16 01:25:17 moblin 2.1 final :D Feb 16 01:25:21 Well, I just don't like the *default* appearance of qt/KDE apps then. Feb 16 01:25:30 CosmoHill: not bad download speed... no need for a bittorrent ;-) Feb 16 01:25:31 Because it's far too common among them all to be totally *not* dependent on the toolkit Feb 16 01:25:38 default gtk+ is as ugly as default Qt Feb 16 01:25:45 a good theme goes a LOOOONG way Feb 16 01:25:48 doesnt Qt have gtk style? Feb 16 01:25:50 that may be, but it's totally silly to judge a toolkit based on stock theme Feb 16 01:25:52 Idk, I'd give gtk+ a little bit better of a shade :P Feb 16 01:25:54 it does Feb 16 01:26:01 It's a better shade of gray :P Feb 16 01:26:31 Have the maemo people been working on this for awhile? I imagine its rather non-trivial to just up and merge two systems and have it ready for 2H'10 Feb 16 01:26:33 * CosmoHill dances then goes to boot his PC since his mac doesn't like any CD Feb 16 01:26:36 MikeJB: just run qtconfig and set it to use gtk style Feb 16 01:26:51 yngwin: ... Feb 16 01:26:53 can you install mobin without installing a boot loader Feb 16 01:26:57 I want to use the one already installed Feb 16 01:27:00 install no, run yes Feb 16 01:27:05 yngwin: It can't be that simple :P Feb 16 01:27:10 I would suggest running it for a bit first as live image Feb 16 01:27:12 it is Feb 16 01:27:25 Qt is just that cool Feb 16 01:27:31 i have moblin-2.1-final-20091103-002.img Feb 16 01:27:53 hmm, CD or memory stick Feb 16 01:27:53 Though really, the main reason I prefer gnome/gtk over kde/qt is the terminal. I use GNOME Terminal more than just about everything else except maybe Firefox, even for running IRC (irssi), and I just like the feel of Terminal over Konsole. Feb 16 01:28:04 zgold: naah - it's all been written in 3 hours last-night. Feb 16 01:28:09 I guess it's just personal taste, but I find Konsole kinda interferes with irssi a bit. Feb 16 01:28:26 Speaking of which, does meego support irssi? Feb 16 01:28:26 i prefer urxvt myself Feb 16 01:28:40 zgold: more seriously, apparantly a few 'core' devs on maemo have been involved. Feb 16 01:28:42 (And when I do go into KDE, I still use GNOME Terminal. Same with xfce) Feb 16 01:28:44 MikeJB: nothing stopping you form using your prefered term app Feb 16 01:28:53 lpotter: I know :P Feb 16 01:28:59 MikeJB: I like the xfce terminal ;-) Feb 16 01:28:59 See above. Feb 16 01:29:03 don't mix up KDE with Qt. Qt is capable of much better than that Feb 16 01:29:04 SpeedEvil: cool Feb 16 01:29:05 if you only need the terminal ... use cygwin on win7 Feb 16 01:29:14 ali1234++ Feb 16 01:29:15 Probably gnome > xfce > kde in terms of terminal. Feb 16 01:29:16 * CosmoHill pulls out an SD card Feb 16 01:29:26 I like minimalism over noise and konsole imo is a bit too crowded Feb 16 01:29:28 oh hey, I wonder if there's a pure QT terminal? i.e. what terminal will Meego have installed by default? ;-) Feb 16 01:29:31 I'm not actually used to GUI linux Feb 16 01:29:32 when I go to the terminal I do it to *avoid* a GUI Feb 16 01:29:47 I turn off the menu bar and scroll bar in my GNOME terminal Feb 16 01:29:49 all linux systems I use are command line or ssh into Feb 16 01:30:26 ShadowJK: there isnt one really, altho there is some project on qt-apps in alpha stage Feb 16 01:30:59 maybe I'll try KDE again this summer, because last time I tried it (4.0 and 4.1) I thought it was very incomplete. Feb 16 01:31:19 i think i started off with kubuntu Feb 16 01:31:25 it's still incomplete, just more bloated Feb 16 01:31:35 Back in Red Hat 8 or 9 I thought KDE was better than GNOME :P Feb 16 01:31:35 ShadowJK: there is, check qt-apps.org Feb 16 01:31:46 A question that matters to me, MeeGo, RPM or Debian based packages? I was really happy that the N900 Maemo had Debian based. Feb 16 01:32:00 why does it matter? Feb 16 01:32:09 The N900 Maemo 5 has uses .deb packages. Feb 16 01:32:21 johanhil: RPM's a pain to build compared to Debian packages. Feb 16 01:32:31 not that it matters, but it will use .rpm Feb 16 01:32:33 oh you stupid fuck Feb 16 01:32:37 nokia shoul dhave come up with a new package format - qeb :) Feb 16 01:32:44 SpacedOut: Not really... it's just a matter of familiarity Feb 16 01:32:46 SpacedOut, i imagine it depends on who builds your device Feb 16 01:32:46 dammit Feb 16 01:32:55 I'm a SD card reader away from molbin Feb 16 01:33:10 Stskeeps: she ain't seeworthy, you're losing grounds! Feb 16 01:33:14 CosmoHill: I'd let you borrow mine, but you're probably on the other end of the world. Feb 16 01:33:20 rpms are just as easy to build as debs Feb 16 01:33:26 also it's 1:33am Feb 16 01:33:31 yngwin: yes Feb 16 01:33:39 jsmith: I've tried both, there's a reason I leave RPM at work and I much prefer Debian's upgrade path and package dependencies. Feb 16 01:33:42 I tried out dkpg and rpm5 at the same time Feb 16 01:33:47 I found rpm5 easyer Feb 16 01:33:48 oh ffs, is that RPM vs deb still going on? That was still going when I went to bed nearly 10 hours ago! Feb 16 01:33:57 so please, shut the hell up about it already Feb 16 01:33:59 lol Feb 16 01:34:07 new ppl are joining and bringing it up Feb 16 01:34:12 <.< Feb 16 01:34:13 >.> Feb 16 01:34:23 Maybe I should mention that Debian just plain has more packages available. Feb 16 01:34:25 wait, i wasn't the one that brought it up Feb 16 01:34:26 so, who here isn't from the Maemo community Feb 16 01:34:37 I'm from neither Feb 16 01:34:41 SpacedOut: doesnt matter Feb 16 01:34:54 * SpeedEvil is from OpenMoko. Feb 16 01:35:00 crashanddie: i'm not Feb 16 01:35:02 SpeedEvil: no you're not Feb 16 01:35:05 SpacedOut: did you ever actually look into maemo 5's version of debs? Feb 16 01:35:06 crashanddie: technically I am not Feb 16 01:35:11 crashanddie: yes, I am. Feb 16 01:35:13 i'm from gentoo, just interested in this Feb 16 01:35:22 SpeedEvil: yeah, but you're here because you own an NIT Feb 16 01:35:30 maemo here Feb 16 01:35:41 crashanddie: perhaps. Feb 16 01:35:45 yngwin: great, you be compiling our packages, take the door on your right Feb 16 01:35:53 :D Feb 16 01:35:57 crashanddie: and because of the silly nokia UK stores vouchers. :) Feb 16 01:36:01 ali1234: I've built packages for it, what did you have in mind? Feb 16 01:36:42 SpacedOut: mainly that they broke all the good things about package management in general in the name of user experience Feb 16 01:36:58 it doesn't matter what tool you use if you don't use it right Feb 16 01:37:23 SpeedEvil: Is there even a Nokia US? Feb 16 01:37:38 MikeJB, yes? Feb 16 01:37:38 MikeJB: of course there Feb 16 01:37:52 MikeJB: they have a pretty big site in Mountain View, been there a couple of times Feb 16 01:38:08 No offense intended, but they completely botched the smartphone wars. I don't think the N900 is available subsidized, which is how 90% of phones in US are sold... Feb 16 01:38:19 only 90% ? Feb 16 01:38:35 I think I've heard of a Nokia smartphone advertized once, and it was Symbian. Feb 16 01:38:51 rpm :( Feb 16 01:38:57 rpm :) Feb 16 01:39:00 Why's everyone hatin' on rpm? Feb 16 01:39:03 i can make rpms Feb 16 01:39:06 MikeJB: That also means it's not available locked down and you can start month to month on T-Mobile for cheaper than a subsidized plan. Feb 16 01:39:15 MikeJB: Nokia generally isn't willing to foul up the experience for the sake of AT&T Feb 16 01:39:19 MikeJB: Have you tried to build both an rpm and a deb before? Feb 16 01:39:27 SpacedOut: The problem is most people don't *start* on a contract. Feb 16 01:39:39 MikeJB: considering the US is only 1/12 of the world, who cares? :) Feb 16 01:39:53 angasule: Because it's maybe 1/3 of the world's spending. Feb 16 01:40:00 Americans like spending 200% past their means :P Feb 16 01:40:06 It's the one thing the rich and poor have in common here :P Feb 16 01:40:13 I've built both rpm and deb, I'm not touching rpm again Feb 16 01:40:21 angasule: Exactly Feb 16 01:40:22 :/ Feb 16 01:40:29 nokia is number handset maker without the US market Feb 16 01:40:32 1 Feb 16 01:40:37 angasule: ok, bye bye then Feb 16 01:40:38 MikeJB: yeah, you know, plenty of us are pissed about the US' behaviour, so you probably want to avoid the topic Feb 16 01:40:59 angasule: I'm an American and I'm pissed about the US's behavior sometimes. Feb 16 01:41:12 There's a reason why everyone in government, Democrat and Republican, get really low approval ratings. Feb 16 01:41:16 no one likes 'em Feb 16 01:41:32 if no one likes them, how come ppl vote for em? Feb 16 01:41:34 oh jeez, go back to arguing about rpm vs deb, but don't bring up politics... Feb 16 01:41:40 "politician" is a pejorative term Feb 16 01:41:54 rpm is part of the axis of evil, I tell ya! :) Feb 16 01:42:03 yngwin: Because people are stupid in the US, it's the one conclusion i've come to. Feb 16 01:42:10 Everyone loves politicians here, until they're elected. Feb 16 01:42:11 hehe Feb 16 01:42:13 I have built both rpms and debs, and I by far approve .tar.gz the most Feb 16 01:42:14 People everywhere are stupid. We're just louder about it Feb 16 01:42:26 lets talk comunity b/c i cant help feeling todays news as left everyone unsure and in limbo Feb 16 01:42:40 So yeah, don't hate Americans, hate our government. Feb 16 01:42:46 unsure? i'm exited! Feb 16 01:42:50 lle2: I think the problem is crappy software, only software that has been through QA for 20 years should be allowed, and then only as beta. Feb 16 01:43:08 And keep in mind that a democracy isn't necessarily representative of the people, considering big business, big media, and big unions basically have undue influence overp eople. Feb 16 01:43:12 angasule: sounds like a good policy Feb 16 01:43:19 lle2: Until you go to upgrade or remove that program you installed 6 years ago, and it's a piece of cake for Debian. Feb 16 01:43:21 MikeJB: Isnt there a channel for that kind of talk? Feb 16 01:43:23 So what background is everyone here from? Mainly maemo people? Feb 16 01:43:30 * arjan_ is moblin Feb 16 01:43:40 espringe: all over the place Feb 16 01:43:47 mal|lappy: Eh, just trying to tell Europeans here to not hate america for what our government does. Feb 16 01:43:48 <- Qt guy, still trying to figure out what the heck meego is for Feb 16 01:43:54 SpacedOut: I use --prefix=$HOME/local, if I need to uninstall, I nuke that Feb 16 01:43:54 * CosmoHill install arjan_ to his laptop Feb 16 01:43:58 MikeJB: By doing so, you make them hate you more Feb 16 01:44:06 stfu about polotics the community will have enough of that over the coming years working now with multiple Corporations Feb 16 01:44:07 eskil: Debian, I just got a Maemo system. Feb 16 01:44:10 mal|lappy: isn't meego some toy line? Feb 16 01:44:11 lle2: some packages have "make uninstall" Feb 16 01:44:24 Spanish TV show, or electric bike, too Feb 16 01:44:25 Debian, recently got an N810, also Qt programmer Feb 16 01:44:34 * vmlemon_ is from neither community Feb 16 01:44:48 CosmoHill: I don't trust some random build system removing files from my machine ;) Feb 16 01:44:49 lle2: And all the other packages you also installed there, or for a package that other people use as well? Feb 16 01:44:58 whyhi: Politics: rpm or deb. qt or gtk. emacs or vim. gnome or kde. Plenty of ways to bring up mroe on-topic politics in this channel ;) Feb 16 01:44:59 but you built it Feb 16 01:45:12 * yngwin is from gentoo, and interested in smartphones/netbooks, but uncommitted yet Feb 16 01:45:15 go amd! Feb 16 01:45:17 build systems don't normally delete files too much when they build/install Feb 16 01:45:34 rpm/qt/neither/gnome ;D Feb 16 01:45:47 I don't think any community will want me with a combo like that :( Feb 16 01:45:48 yeah can we have a gnome/kde war Feb 16 01:45:52 i have accidenttly broken my system by removing very import files via rpm Feb 16 01:45:54 CosmoHill: And if you are want to point to a file and ask where it came from? Make uninstall doesn't help you there. Feb 16 01:45:56 it dont matter which one your from or not but being you are now participating in a new one Feb 16 01:45:57 ebuilds/qt/vim/neither Feb 16 01:46:00 or a vim.emacs Feb 16 01:46:09 or ... WIndows/OS/2 Feb 16 01:46:39 SpacedOut: I'm the only user of my machines, I don't care about my alt accounts' opinions Feb 16 01:46:39 * GeneralAntilles wonders if any of the non-Maemo people have an opinion about a community council for MeeGo. Feb 16 01:46:54 Ah, the answer to "qt or gtk" is "sdl" ;P Feb 16 01:47:00 So how similiar is the moblin system to something like Fedora Feb 16 01:47:03 MikeJB: I use vim. Feb 16 01:47:05 GeneralAntilles: I'd be fine with it as long as there's a clear charter Feb 16 01:47:20 GeneralAntilles: and merit based, eg based on contribution, not on how loud you are Feb 16 01:47:20 I've used vim inside of emacs... Feb 16 01:47:29 And is there opportunity to share the .src.rpms? Feb 16 01:47:31 lle2: i like your attitue Feb 16 01:47:34 lpotter: Likewise. Feb 16 01:47:41 espringe: it's a little like fedora, just like any LSB compliant system is a little like fedora Feb 16 01:47:41 hey, I used to be an SDL person, great stuff Feb 16 01:47:42 btw what boot loader will meego be using? Feb 16 01:47:45 emacs is a good desktop environment, almost as many features as kde Feb 16 01:47:50 CosmoHill: for PC's we'll use syslinux Feb 16 01:47:54 arjan_, TSG but for community. Feb 16 01:47:55 CosmoHill: (extlinux for disks) Feb 16 01:48:05 With a facilitation focus rather than a governance one. Feb 16 01:48:10 MikeJB: I hear emacs is getting compositing Feb 16 01:48:14 hmm Feb 16 01:48:16 GeneralAntilles: again, as long as it's merit based and not loudest-mouth based ;-) Feb 16 01:48:18 Currently we use a 5-person elected group on a 6-month term in maemo.org Feb 16 01:48:22 I'm not used to netbooks Feb 16 01:48:27 I'm still getting used to laptops Feb 16 01:48:29 arjan_, how do you pick based on merits? Feb 16 01:48:29 Emacs does most languages well, but it needs better Visual Basic support Feb 16 01:48:46 GeneralAntilles: that's a good one, and not easy. On the tech side, you can do it based on code contribution Feb 16 01:48:52 GeneralAntilles: for general community, much harder Feb 16 01:49:05 sometimes elections give you merit based results Feb 16 01:49:08 but sometimes they don't Feb 16 01:49:12 Indeed Feb 16 01:49:16 number of exclamation marks per irc line is best metric Feb 16 01:49:21 * GeneralAntilles can't see a better method. Feb 16 01:49:22 but picking just coders gives no end users a voice it needs to be a mix Feb 16 01:49:28 lle2: I agree!!!!!!!!!!1 Feb 16 01:49:31 yeah different target Feb 16 01:49:45 whyhi, indeed, and our councils have never been composed primarily of coders. Feb 16 01:50:00 not saying it's an easy problem Feb 16 01:50:12 but having "loudest voice wins" is also a recipe for failure Feb 16 01:50:22 I agree entirely. Feb 16 01:50:39 Elections are susceptible to it, but I don't see a better way to go about it. Feb 16 01:50:48 and elections seem the least evil Feb 16 01:50:54 I'll have to leave someone from Nokia management to address the community representation thing, personally I'd go for code contribution Feb 16 01:50:55 Versus, say, having the TSG pick 5 people. ;) Feb 16 01:51:01 you can shape elections, by requiring a statement of contribution etc Feb 16 01:51:16 arjan_, we have karma in maemo.org Feb 16 01:51:25 (contribution is not the same as code only, obviously) Feb 16 01:51:45 Bugs reporting and triaging, mailing list/forum participation, blogs, applications, code, etc. Feb 16 01:51:49 yep Feb 16 01:51:54 translations Feb 16 01:52:03 extra apps QA Feb 16 01:52:13 I've focused mainly on IRC for LFS and patches / updates on CLFS Feb 16 01:52:22 So what is to happen to the Clutter Toolkit? Feb 16 01:52:23 arjan_: Oh, cool, I have a sticker here that says "Intel Centrino inside"... how's it feel like to work for a company that has its product almost everywhere? Feb 16 01:52:37 CosmoHill: on bootloader; we picked syslinux for netbooks because grub was at its end, and grub2 was not apatizing; and we already used syslinux for the live CD Feb 16 01:52:51 cool Feb 16 01:52:53 MikeJB: it's fun actually; quite a wide reach to anything we do Feb 16 01:53:06 MikeJB: when I'm working on a new feature for a next gen cpu, I know it's going to be used a LOT Feb 16 01:53:11 makes me feel it's worth my time Feb 16 01:53:11 I'm using grub2 on my laptop and it's actually really easy to set the screen resolution Feb 16 01:53:23 arjan_: Is there going to be an i9 or is i7 top-of-the-line? Feb 16 01:53:23 then again i only have a frame buffer Feb 16 01:53:36 It'll be interesting how much of what the end user experiences is decided by what goes on with Meego Feb 16 01:53:39 so how is meego pronounced? Feb 16 01:53:42 MikeJB: Can't comment ont hat; the marketing names I wouldn't even know how to map to something "real") Feb 16 01:53:53 Me Go Feb 16 01:53:55 Presumably Feb 16 01:54:00 afaik, i3 < i5 < i7 in the new names to things Feb 16 01:54:09 but I don't know if there'll be an i9 eventually... Feb 16 01:54:12 MikeJB: gulftown Feb 16 01:54:17 6 cores Feb 16 01:54:23 MikeJB: there should be Feb 16 01:54:51 no! progress will stop! Feb 16 01:54:59 MikeBJ of course there will be. It might not be called i9, and it might not fit in any board you have. Feb 16 01:54:59 * GeneralAntilles wonders when the MeeGo bugzilla will be up. Feb 16 01:55:05 gulftown rocks fwiw ;-) Feb 16 01:55:10 * arjan_ knows them by codename, not marketing name ;-) Feb 16 01:55:17 GeneralAntilles: you already have bugs to report? Feb 16 01:55:22 GeneralAntilles: guess what the first bug is... Feb 16 01:55:24 How will the switch to fedora affect Ubuntu based programmers? Feb 16 01:55:31 dmj7261: what switch to fedora????? Feb 16 01:55:32 So am I reading this right, that there is no actual code to download and try out yet for meego? Feb 16 01:55:36 anaZ, no, I have lots of enhancements planned for the maemo.org bugzilla. Feb 16 01:55:45 Isn't meego fedora based? Feb 16 01:55:47 dmj7261: no Feb 16 01:55:49 anaZ, and as there's little point in working exclusively on that moving forward. . . . Feb 16 01:55:53 reallY/ Feb 16 01:55:53 dmj7261: what gave you that idea?? Feb 16 01:56:06 GeneralAntilles: ok, makes sense :) Feb 16 01:56:09 switch to rpm, moblin based on fedora? Feb 16 01:56:09 what is fedora? Feb 16 01:56:21 moblin is not based on fedora? Feb 16 01:56:32 A community distribution by Red Hat; which also uses rpms Feb 16 01:56:44 suse uses rpms too Feb 16 01:56:52 maemo used debian Feb 16 01:56:54 Moblin = Red Hat? Feb 16 01:56:54 and so does mandriva :D Feb 16 01:56:55 so is moblin now based on suse too, and fedora based on suse Feb 16 01:56:57 i use rpm5 where as red hat use rpm4 Feb 16 01:56:59 I thought Moblin = Intel Feb 16 01:57:00 dmj7261: well... barely Feb 16 01:57:05 Red Hat = an American linux company Feb 16 01:57:10 iirc the developer of rpm doesn't even work for red hat / fedora? :) Feb 16 01:57:14 dmj7261: the difference between maemo and current debian is rather big Feb 16 01:57:25 there are two versions of rpm running at once Feb 16 01:57:28 rpm is a holy war in itself :P Feb 16 01:57:33 rpm4 by fedora / redhat Feb 16 01:57:33 rpm5 is FAIL so far Feb 16 01:57:42 and rpm5 by themselfs / ex red hat Feb 16 01:57:43 rpm4 is done by Red Hat, SuSE and a few others Feb 16 01:57:46 that's unsettling Feb 16 01:57:46 not just RH Feb 16 01:57:54 dmj7261: what is? Feb 16 01:58:02 rpm5 is sort of a fork that nobody is using Feb 16 01:58:06 that there's an rpm war? Feb 16 01:58:09 the rpm everyone is using is codeveloped by a bunch of people Feb 16 01:58:22 * CosmoHill uses rpm5 Feb 16 01:58:30 ok one guy is using rpm5 ;) Feb 16 01:58:40 this irc channel is surprisingly functional, all things considered. bedtime -> Feb 16 01:58:40 wow, it's a miracle, we found the one guy using rpm5 :P Feb 16 01:59:06 night lle2 Feb 16 01:59:15 MikeJB: now we have to find what he uses it for, maybe he prints out the source code and wraps fish with it Feb 16 01:59:24 we should probably try and drop the rpm vs deb discussion. it'll will otherwise never end Feb 16 01:59:28 So... how long until gulftown with 6 cores makes it way down to smartphones? Feb 16 01:59:40 a while :D Feb 16 01:59:45 awwww Feb 16 01:59:47 A bot with autokick on rpm for a month Feb 16 01:59:50 MikeJB: about as long as it takes for the battery people to start following Moore's law Feb 16 01:59:52 How will this affect scratchbox development on Ubuntu? Feb 16 02:00:01 tripzero: we could also try to talk about advantages and disadvantages, I seriously would like to know what people like about RPM Feb 16 02:00:08 hi Feb 16 02:00:09 MikeJB, hey, they're only starting to use powersaving features ARM has had since the 90s. Give it some time. :P Feb 16 02:00:12 http://bluesquarelinux.co.uk/2008/02/rpm5-and-sparc64/ Feb 16 02:00:16 arjan_: Engadget had an article about how the body of a car/phone could be used as a battery via some special thin fabric Feb 16 02:00:19 That's exciting... Feb 16 02:00:29 Traditional battery + body battery = 2x the life? Feb 16 02:00:40 except.. how exactly would you switch it out? Feb 16 02:00:45 We need infobot in here. Feb 16 02:00:45 batteries wear out Feb 16 02:00:45 the other thing is that gulfstown is a bit big in size Feb 16 02:00:51 bit bigger than the average phone cpu Feb 16 02:00:53 doubling the number of cells every 18 months, or how was it? you need a truck in 10 years for your phone.. now I'll sleep.. :P Feb 16 02:00:54 (physical dimensions) Feb 16 02:01:28 angasule: (1) RPM is "Red Hat Package Manager" and Red Hat is cool; (2) Fedora uses RPM; (3) all cars use RPM too, I hear. That's why RPM is so likeable. Feb 16 02:01:31 sheepbat: so does the bodywork of a car Feb 16 02:01:54 all of it all at once with regular use? Feb 16 02:01:59 MikeJB: oh, makes sense, I'm convinced, let's use rods to the hogshead! Feb 16 02:02:09 Any objections to a factoid and correction bot? Feb 16 02:02:16 MikeJB: nah, seriously, do you know what's good about RPM? Feb 16 02:02:20 arjan_: Well, the technology is going to eventually make its way down to phones... The keyword is eventually. Might take 10 years Feb 16 02:02:34 i'm guessing there aren't any sshots or video's of meego's UI? Feb 16 02:03:11 It sounds like meego will have 2 UIs Feb 16 02:03:18 Or more Feb 16 02:03:27 tripzero: for netbooks, the moblin 2.1 shots are a good start Feb 16 02:03:31 for phones, nothing released yet Feb 16 02:03:58 I would hope that the phone UI will be like the Maemo 5 one except with some improvements Feb 16 02:04:10 dmj7261: more like maemo 6 I thin Feb 16 02:04:11 k Feb 16 02:04:12 dmj7261, see the Maemo 6 mockups from the Summit? Feb 16 02:04:19 but some of the style will also look like moblin Feb 16 02:04:21 what smartphones do people use / want? Feb 16 02:04:26 at least, one of the themes will be like moblin Feb 16 02:04:29 maemo 6 looks like maemo 5 with improvements Feb 16 02:04:38 (but expect heavy theming everywhere between people shipping stuff) Feb 16 02:04:39 why am i thinking of windows Feb 16 02:05:10 windows and smartphones is fail Feb 16 02:05:16 * ShadowJK wants something that will run mplayer, openvpn, rsync, ssh, xterm and xchat Feb 16 02:05:20 [02:04] maemo 6 looks like maemo 5 with improvements Feb 16 02:05:28 ^^ windows 7 and vista :p Feb 16 02:05:55 wikipedia's list of rpm's advantages has nothing Feb 16 02:06:06 no, I mean the UI is similar... Feb 16 02:06:07 ShadowJK: you are sitting in front of it Feb 16 02:06:34 angasule: you're about 9 hours late for that discussion, everyone else moved on from that and is tired of it Feb 16 02:06:40 angasule: indeed I have my N900 infront of me and typing this on it right now. Feb 16 02:06:53 ShadowJK: *envy* I only have an N810 :) Feb 16 02:07:01 the n900 I have is nice. Feb 16 02:07:06 angasule: those things are more useful to me than voicecall support Feb 16 02:07:08 I like the screen a lot Feb 16 02:07:19 the browser is well done also, but is a tad slow Feb 16 02:07:36 the text messaging part of it is a bit .. meh though Feb 16 02:07:37 arjan_, hey, it aint a Gulftown. ;) Feb 16 02:07:45 ShadowJK: indeed, I can't wait for voice calls to go away Feb 16 02:07:46 for a firefox based browser, it's not bad :) Feb 16 02:07:50 mobin should be easy to use soon Feb 16 02:07:52 arjan: you're supposed to complain it's not capacitive ;) Feb 16 02:07:54 microlith: can't argue with that one Feb 16 02:08:01 js rendering improvements should be coming in one of the next releases. Feb 16 02:08:02 ShadowJK: I *love* that it is not capacitive Feb 16 02:08:13 as does my girlfriend; she can't use an iphone since it just does not register her Feb 16 02:08:19 because you don't have to sausage it up for a styuls? Feb 16 02:08:34 you'll hate future devices from nokia then lol Feb 16 02:08:45 :( I like resistive too Feb 16 02:08:48 I wish rtcomm weren't using the freaking browser to render itself. Feb 16 02:08:51 Sloooooow Feb 16 02:08:51 I'm hoping nokia keeps making resistive ones as well Feb 16 02:09:02 arjan_, seems sadly unlikely at this point. Feb 16 02:09:13 the phone side works well as well (unlike various androids I've tried) Feb 16 02:09:19 arjan_, the marketing people took over all sensibility over there. Feb 16 02:09:27 it does not sync with my pc yet, my old nokia did Feb 16 02:09:40 marketing is a paralle universe Feb 16 02:09:48 Resistive is very nice in many regards, though you can have a capacitive screen with support for styluses and fingernails if you buy a special stylus and paint your nails with metal paint. Feb 16 02:09:51 at the summit they said they was using capacitive and multi-touch in maemo6, its main argument i've heard why n900 wont get m6 Feb 16 02:10:07 dmj7261, lol. . . . Feb 16 02:10:07 CosmoHill: I think Steve Jobs is the gate to that universe Feb 16 02:10:20 Enabling jit in the browser makes it a bit faster, but it still has the "must go prod some sqlite databases just because, and oh let's fsync a zillion times too"-disease inherited from firefox :) Feb 16 02:10:21 ...which most people wouldn't do... Feb 16 02:11:00 firefox brings compatibility for sure, but it's a bit of a dog Feb 16 02:11:07 (heck it's a dog on my core2 laptop as well) Feb 16 02:11:19 why not go with webkit (or is that also a dead topic?) Feb 16 02:11:24 whyhi, um, apps really shouldn't be written to be only multi-touch. that would be silly Feb 16 02:11:26 arora should be an interesting alternative Feb 16 02:11:26 i think apple should stop making shiny crap and start making good computers again Feb 16 02:11:34 angasule: meego will support both webkit and gecko Feb 16 02:11:42 angasule, historically speaking, WebKit wasn't anywhere near usable when Nokia decided to go with Gecko. Feb 16 02:11:42 it's up the final UI which you use Feb 16 02:11:43 * CosmoHill is still annoyed about the move to intel Feb 16 02:11:46 yngwin: no, arora is useless, webkit itself is interesting Feb 16 02:11:55 GeneralAntilles: I know, but now it is Feb 16 02:11:56 how so? Feb 16 02:12:08 CosmoHill: Apple didn't have much of a choice to remain competitive... Feb 16 02:12:11 CosmoHill: what move to intel? Feb 16 02:12:13 angasule, changing rendering engines is expensive. Feb 16 02:12:15 webkit is getting interesting fast due to chrome Feb 16 02:12:22 oh, apple's Feb 16 02:12:26 (it seems google is investing a ton of effort in it) Feb 16 02:12:29 angasule, objectively speaking, WebKit and Gecko are really pretty close. Feb 16 02:12:31 chromium is yummy-fast Feb 16 02:12:42 tripzero: yeah they got something right; if feels really fast Feb 16 02:12:46 angasule, the other advantage Gecko offers is all of the little niceties it comes with that you don't have to bring yourself. Feb 16 02:12:59 angasule, i.e., basically everything that's not the rendering engine. Feb 16 02:13:02 webkit is a bit more of a DIY kit Feb 16 02:13:11 rendering is one thing, but if the app loads and runs quick, that's a +1 in my book. Feb 16 02:13:14 the webkit browser has other quirks, the IO pressure patterns it causes are hell on MMC/SD. Gecko gobbles up a big chunk of ram in one go, and spits it out. Nice big swapout burst. Webkit nibbles memory slowly, and the random write swapout generated causes mmc to creep at 100kbyte/sec :D Feb 16 02:13:19 ffox is a dog in comparison Feb 16 02:13:22 i should have gone to bed hours ago Feb 16 02:13:27 the pieces are there, but you never know if ikea gave you the right amount of twizlly things Feb 16 02:13:55 well, all gecko-browsers I've tried are dog slow Feb 16 02:14:16 I ran webkit (arora) on my old 32MB laptop just fine Feb 16 02:14:16 one of the things chromium gets right is that one tab page does not interfere with others Feb 16 02:14:27 (eg each has its own thread of execution etc) Feb 16 02:14:41 in firefox I often have one page blocking the others.. esp the one I'm looking at Feb 16 02:14:59 chromium really kicks ass in that regard Feb 16 02:15:02 arjan_: that's nice, but expensive, I'm not sure it's worth it for a mobile device (it's great for desktops) Feb 16 02:15:17 that's particulary annoying when some ad provider sends a 12 meg .js your way Feb 16 02:15:20 angasule: with multicore cpus coming to cellphones..... Feb 16 02:15:25 I use konqueror for pages I want to keep alive, since each time you start it, it starts a new process Feb 16 02:15:34 (even within the tab they seem to use threading to do some stuff in the background.. which is also a win) Feb 16 02:15:49 arjan_: UI wise, I don't like keeping many tabs open as in a desktop Feb 16 02:15:56 tabs or virtual screens Feb 16 02:16:02 kinda the same deal Feb 16 02:16:11 but point taken Feb 16 02:16:17 but even inside one page I notice it Feb 16 02:16:28 as if the page render code in firefox shares thread with the javascript engine Feb 16 02:16:32 while on chromium they're independent Feb 16 02:16:48 not sure how they actually do it, but it feels like that Feb 16 02:17:06 mmm, 150Mb/s upload Feb 16 02:17:24 it's times like this i wish i had a faster server but it's still good Feb 16 02:17:28 arjan_: webkit feels faster, and certainly works better on the websites I use (I don't visit many IE6-only websites :) ) Feb 16 02:17:48 short term however, both have a reason to exist Feb 16 02:17:49 on desktop I use tabs as bookmarks because the browser cache doesnt work, on handheld I use new window/tab instead of a simple click, because the browser cache doesn,t work and i dont want to wait on page to reload when I click back. Feb 16 02:17:55 spot a pattern? Feb 16 02:17:57 btw, is is wrong to make sure your website validates? Feb 16 02:17:58 I like firefox's security design. Feb 16 02:18:00 I suspect it'll be at least a year before the industry consolidates Feb 16 02:18:07 friends at uni say I'm the only one that cares about it Feb 16 02:18:25 CosmoHill: please don't let your friends become web designers Feb 16 02:18:33 * arjan_ seconds angasule Feb 16 02:18:39 we're on a web design module Feb 16 02:18:42 wait, firefox has a design? Feb 16 02:18:43 can we just revoke their website license right now Feb 16 02:18:44 * angasule hands CosmoHill an axe Feb 16 02:18:48 anyone want to see our assignment? Feb 16 02:18:52 tripzero: or security? :P Feb 16 02:19:06 hehe Feb 16 02:19:21 our assignment is: Feb 16 02:19:26 * CosmoHill puts on ear defenders Feb 16 02:19:27 http://yvettesbridalformal.com/ Feb 16 02:20:25 CosmoHill: nice music... O_O Feb 16 02:20:44 actually i was expecting to hear some of you scream Feb 16 02:20:56 tripzero: you being all dorky in here? Feb 16 02:21:04 websites that do music are criminal ;-) Feb 16 02:21:14 (at least do music without you hitting some play button) Feb 16 02:21:14 it gets worse Feb 16 02:21:21 click on the link, if you can find it Feb 16 02:21:31 ioi8, i don't respond to rumors Feb 16 02:21:33 ok, whoever made that needs to be shot Feb 16 02:21:39 it took me 2 days to find out there was more Feb 16 02:21:50 * CosmoHill is begining to like you guys Feb 16 02:22:09 Oooh, another meego question... Feb 16 02:22:11 Apps? Feb 16 02:22:19 (Yes, that's a valid question.) Feb 16 02:22:21 CosmoHill: I tried, I clicked on a link, but then closed it, I just couldn't bear it any more Feb 16 02:22:21 No apps, never. Feb 16 02:22:25 :( Feb 16 02:22:28 Me likez apps. Feb 16 02:22:33 they going to be called Applications or are you gonna use text speach? Feb 16 02:22:42 * CosmoHill pets ang Feb 16 02:22:45 4ppz Feb 16 02:22:48 * CosmoHill pets angasule Feb 16 02:22:56 in addition to the appstores, there will be a repo for open/free apps Feb 16 02:23:03 both maemo and moblin have something like that Feb 16 02:23:09 and that will be there as well Feb 16 02:23:18 not sure how the logistics will work yet... one of those things ;) Feb 16 02:23:18 angasule... your nick sounds familair.... Feb 16 02:23:29 ioi8: I'm everywhere, yours too Feb 16 02:23:38 you on mp3car? Feb 16 02:23:45 * arjan_ heads out for dinner Feb 16 02:23:56 angasule is the village bicycle Feb 16 02:24:10 arjan_away, by the way, it's probably a good idea to file a contact form with Freenode ASAP. Feb 16 02:24:10 oh, yeah, I used to join that channel, we're selling the clio 2 and getting a honda fitt :) Feb 16 02:24:24 arjan_away, we got ours processed for #maemo just in time to be obsoleted. :( Feb 16 02:24:28 wernt you also in linuxice? Feb 16 02:24:40 I like the name, MeeGo, it's like Me Ego.. Feb 16 02:24:41 what time scale as been set on moving the best of both worlds to the MeeGo site? Feb 16 02:24:51 Basstard`: hahah Feb 16 02:24:54 ioi8: ummh, yeah, I think so, my memory is fading :) Feb 16 02:25:05 whyhi, don't think we're at that stage yet. Feb 16 02:25:07 then you should def remember tripzero Feb 16 02:25:14 ioi8: I do Feb 16 02:25:23 ahhh k Feb 16 02:25:35 ioi8: I don't recall when I was last there, but lately I moved to Buenos Aires, and soon I'm moving to Amsterdam or Utrecht Feb 16 02:25:36 whyhi, seems to be a basic web infra structure provided and administered by Intel, technical details provided primarily by Intel and managed by Intel and Nokia Feb 16 02:25:42 whyhi, anything beyond that is up in the air. Feb 16 02:26:04 I'd guess between now and Q3 Feb 16 02:26:32 dont like the sound of that all power seems one way so far Feb 16 02:27:09 whyhi, I agree, which is why it's my intention to push for maemo.org people in the infra. Feb 16 02:27:11 they're friends working on the same project Feb 16 02:27:19 instead of apple who buys out and crushes things Feb 16 02:27:31 CosmoHill, that's Microsoft. Feb 16 02:27:33 CosmoHill: sometimes without buying out Feb 16 02:27:41 i've never used irc before so some1 tell me basic commands Feb 16 02:27:42 CosmoHill, Apple buys things out then uses them in weird ways. Feb 16 02:27:47 CosmoHill: apple has a reputation for copying, then crushing Feb 16 02:27:53 whyhi: /me is a good one Feb 16 02:29:17 ok i dont get it let me go and read, should of done this earlier Feb 16 02:29:32 * CosmoHill is happy Feb 16 02:29:34 /me is happy Feb 16 02:29:58 CosmoHill is happy Feb 16 02:30:14 (: Feb 16 02:31:16 * whyhi waves to say i masterd it Feb 16 02:31:21 damn SD card is taking it's sweet time to copy Feb 16 02:31:28 i get it now Feb 16 02:31:33 * CosmoHill high 5s whyhi Feb 16 02:32:58 another one you might be intrested in is /nick Feb 16 02:33:07 /nick cosmo Feb 16 02:33:14 dammit Feb 16 02:33:25 /nick wanda Feb 16 02:33:42 Do all "mobile" Linux distros begin with the letter m? maemo, meego, moblin, mer.. Feb 16 02:33:53 solarion: only on weekends Feb 16 02:33:57 android Feb 16 02:34:14 CosmoHill: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fairly_OddParents Feb 16 02:34:14 whats the command to reply to specific person Feb 16 02:34:15 Android, Access Linux Platform, WebOS and LiMo? Feb 16 02:34:16 windows vista...oh wait Feb 16 02:34:17 :) Feb 16 02:34:23 solarion: i know, it's a cool show Feb 16 02:34:45 CosmoHill: ah, k Feb 16 02:34:54 CosmoHill: uuuh, Internet? Feb 16 02:34:57 :) Feb 16 02:35:38 ? Feb 16 02:35:49 whyhi: There's /msg, if you want to send a direct, private message to someone. Otherwise, you can suffix the other person's handle with a colon. Feb 16 02:36:43 and a good client uses tab completion for nicks Feb 16 02:37:07 CosmoHill: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Fairly_OddParents Feb 16 02:37:12 search for internet. :) Feb 16 02:37:19 and a good car has a caravan/trailer attached to it.. Feb 16 02:37:25 vmlemo: thanks Feb 16 02:37:32 No problem Feb 16 02:38:00 crap, my laptop hingde should't be making that sound Feb 16 02:39:05 oh ffs Feb 16 02:39:16 i can boot from my USB card reader but not the internal one Feb 16 02:41:16 whyhi: ask if you can PM someone first, some people don't like if it you just PM them and they don't know you Feb 16 02:41:50 eg I'll say "keep it in the channel" and just close the window without reading it Feb 16 02:43:08 thanks for all tips time for a splash of vodka before i settle down to sleep it almost 3am Feb 16 02:43:22 whyhi: you're english? Feb 16 02:43:29 yes Feb 16 02:44:09 mobin is giving me a blinking white underscore. can I assume it's crashed? Feb 16 02:44:15 i only had 4 hours this morning b/c i got up press conference after only going to bed at 6 Feb 16 02:44:25 for* Feb 16 02:44:52 well I'm off to bed now Feb 16 02:45:04 night night Feb 16 02:45:06 oo Feb 16 02:45:06 night cosmo ;) Feb 16 02:45:11 also before i go Feb 16 02:45:17 nigh probably see again soon Feb 16 02:45:18 /amsg and /ame Feb 16 02:45:36 /amsg sends the message to all the channels you are currently in Feb 16 02:45:49 like i just said night night in 5 channels with one command Feb 16 02:45:54 /ame is the same but for /me Feb 16 02:45:56 is there command to open new channel Feb 16 02:46:07 also some if you want to start with a / use // Feb 16 02:46:16 /join #cross-lfs Feb 16 02:46:33 cool thanks again Feb 16 02:46:44 I am actually in that channel if you need me Feb 16 02:46:56 ok thanks Feb 16 02:47:08 I advise that you don't enter unarmed or without a chaperon Feb 16 02:47:30 lol Feb 16 02:47:33 bye Feb 16 02:47:42 cya **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 16 02:59:57 2010