**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 23 02:59:58 2010 Feb 23 05:06:05 When we are to hang the capitalists, they will sell us the rope we use. Feb 23 05:26:48 > When we are to hang the capitalists Feb 23 05:27:01 when my cheque clears Feb 23 05:33:11 morning Feb 23 06:04:23 do anyone can tell me which kind of arm processor can be supported by meego Feb 23 06:08:03 in theory anything that linux supports... Feb 23 06:37:46 For example, I do like to usr freescale processor IMX31 serial to build my PDA system. If I choose meego,but meego not support it,I should build rootfs img and device drivers by myself. Feb 23 06:38:18 Hi, what hapened to http://repo.meego.com? It redirects to http://meego.com/downloads but there is nothing there. Feb 23 06:44:42 Keep waiting, the strom will come. Feb 23 06:44:50 morning Feb 23 06:47:38 afternoon Feb 23 06:47:55 Where are you from,Stskeeps? Feb 23 06:49:09 denmark, living in poland Feb 23 06:49:40 I come from China, living in China. Feb 23 06:50:23 :nod: should go and visit china at some point Feb 23 06:52:07 Have you designed the hardware of embedded system? I want to design a PDA using IMX31 processor, but software is a hard choice. Feb 23 06:52:32 nop, software developer Feb 23 06:52:47 hardware design scares me Feb 23 06:53:46 First, I want to choose QTOPIA and android, but yesterday, some of my friends suggest me to try meego Feb 23 06:54:50 timjiang, didn't china have this own linux distro. Feb 23 06:55:01 But I cannot find any source of meego. Feb 23 06:56:19 No, most of us use ubuntu and fedora. but in china linux is not popular as you think. most of chinese do like to use windows. Feb 23 06:57:02 timjiang_: wait some weeks and meego should be published Feb 23 06:59:32 Ok, Stskeeps, which SDK do you like to use. GNOME? QT? Feb 23 07:01:33 qt Feb 23 07:07:24 * DocScrutinizer shocks Stskeeps with a bag full of BGA chips Feb 23 07:10:23 me too, I like qt,signel and slot is easy to control. Feb 23 07:11:26 yes, a nice concept Feb 23 07:11:28 signal/slot is really nifty, yes :) Feb 23 07:11:50 And i like to rub it in the faces of the .NET heads that their events system isn't thread-safe ;) Feb 23 07:12:13 whereas signal/slot is ;) Feb 23 08:14:26 morning Feb 23 08:50:38 huomenta, morgen, morning, moin Feb 23 08:56:47 overheard "Me Go" (as a guy walks out of a meeting) Feb 23 08:58:07 Morning, all Feb 23 09:21:13 hello Feb 23 09:36:55 moin Feb 23 09:37:21 moin Feb 23 09:39:51 mock finished compiling. these moblin srpms failed to compile: http://pastebin.ca/1806563 Feb 23 09:40:06 * Stskeeps looks Feb 23 09:40:17 the other thousand or so produce at least 1 binary rpm Feb 23 09:40:20 is this mailny a developer channel here or more user - or both? Feb 23 09:40:28 mainly Feb 23 09:41:16 we're not really sure :) Feb 23 09:41:19 meego community Feb 23 09:41:20 this is the build.log from attempting to build tar: http://pastebin.ca/1806563 Feb 23 09:41:23 so both :) Feb 23 09:41:43 oops, this is: http://pastebin.ca/1806564 Feb 23 09:43:29 btw, this was still the first pass so although i compiled with arch=i386 they are still linked against the originals which need SSSE3 Feb 23 09:43:43 i don't think that is the cause of the failures though Feb 23 09:44:28 Does anyone have any idea when http://repo.meego.com is coming back online? Or has the url changed? Feb 23 09:44:52 oh, there is already some repository? Feb 23 09:45:38 better: "was" ;) Feb 23 09:45:44 Well there was at least. There are links to that repository in the wiki, e.g., http://wiki.meego.com/Image_Creation Feb 23 09:46:38 I see, was just looking through the wiki . Feb 23 09:58:02 Sage,iirc, it was just a redirect of the repo.moblin.org Feb 23 09:59:05 Unfortunately, they've taken that offline, the trunk repo anyway Feb 23 09:59:20 as Brendan said, they didn't like us making images yet. Feb 23 10:00:53 slaine_: the one at ftp.moblin.org is still there? Feb 23 10:01:23 The repo for the releases and updates is there, unfortunately trunk isn't Feb 23 10:01:25 repo.moblin.org is still here, but there is no trunk for meego. Feb 23 10:01:35 http://ftp.moblin.org/releases/trunk/repo/source/ Feb 23 10:02:09 is there any kind of roadmap of what whould work when btw? Feb 23 10:02:19 'should' Feb 23 10:02:25 ali1234: that is not the same trunk that was in repo.meego.com Feb 23 10:03:08 ali1234: actually it might be :) Feb 23 10:03:18 are there arm packages already anywhere? Feb 23 10:03:26 hasn't been updated since 16th though Feb 23 10:03:27 Tachikoma don't think so Feb 23 10:03:41 That part of integration won't happen for a while yet I imagine Feb 23 10:03:56 Tachikoma: http://build.moblin.org/repos/devel%3a/arch%3a/arm/meego_arm/ Feb 23 10:04:31 Wow, that's awesome Feb 23 10:04:32 cool, now i just need to figure out how to install them Feb 23 10:04:39 That's all via OBS right ? Feb 23 10:05:02 slaine_: the structure seems like obs build. Feb 23 10:05:25 ooh, arm packages Feb 23 10:05:28 * Stskeeps grabs his n900 Feb 23 10:05:28 Also some arm packages are here: http://build.moblin.org/repos/devel%3a/base/FFARM/ Feb 23 10:06:34 Stskeeps: any tip on how to unstall rpm's on n900. should i run them through alien, should i install rpm itself on the system or do i have to rebuild them anyway in ordeer to use them on maemo5? Feb 23 10:06:39 That seems to be only small subset of meego packages. Feb 23 10:06:54 Sage: base system first, it's the sanest Feb 23 10:07:05 Tachikoma: you have to rebuild them anyway Feb 23 10:07:11 I need an Arm dev unit Feb 23 10:07:19 any suggestions ? Feb 23 10:07:25 ali1234: ok, so I'll just repackage them as deb and go with that i guess Feb 23 10:07:25 slaine_: smartq5 is cheap Feb 23 10:07:28 but no gles Feb 23 10:07:29 Stskeeps: as the url states also :) Feb 23 10:07:41 I'd like this to become a SetTopBox Feb 23 10:07:46 my project that is Feb 23 10:07:51 based on MeeGo Feb 23 10:10:02 eagleboard maybe Feb 23 10:10:06 er, beagleboard Feb 23 10:10:35 Is it possible to get that board in commercial batches ? Feb 23 10:10:54 I'd understood it to be targeted at hobbyists. Feb 23 10:11:07 I was really hoping I could get a Tegra Feb 23 10:11:21 well, yeah Feb 23 10:13:22 Aren't we all I hear you say Feb 23 10:13:35 Tegra would be ideal though as it would allow HD content Feb 23 10:13:39 tagra is that nvidia thinggy that I never thought o really exist? Do they actually exist? Feb 23 10:13:46 Yes Feb 23 10:13:54 and can they obtained in any form? Feb 23 10:14:02 I think you need to be an ODM to get them though Feb 23 10:14:09 I imagine the beagleboard can be got in commercial batches, isn't that what the iPhone 3GS and N900 use? Feb 23 10:14:26 I know if your state side you can get a tegra developers board Feb 23 10:14:37 no, aam european Feb 23 10:14:38 but they don't seem to want to farm it out to international markets Feb 23 10:14:43 me too Feb 23 10:15:27 i see, well to be honest I'm pretty happy with the n900, just before i got it this tegra thing sounded petty fascinating Feb 23 10:15:49 the n900 is an awesome device alright Feb 23 10:16:03 * benbrown loves his N900 Feb 23 10:16:51 slaine_: instead of beagle you would probably contact TI directly, but beagle is a good development board for prototyping Feb 23 10:16:56 or the zoom2 (more expensive) Feb 23 10:18:17 I had the chance to compare a nexus one with the n900, that convinced me that I bought the right device. The only downside is the still missing commercial apps, but as far as i understand that more a problem of nokia getting their ovi crap working than of the device itself ... Feb 23 10:19:19 ovi works fine and has commercial apps. the problem is no one wants to develop to a moving target Feb 23 10:20:46 ali1234: are you talking about ovi for n900 or ovi for symbian. I mean ovi for n900. You can count the commercial apps there with two hands ... Feb 23 10:20:51 Stskeeps: btw, do you have a usable phone stack in Mer for N900 ? Feb 23 10:20:58 bldefine usable.. Feb 23 10:21:19 Tachikoma: ovi for n900 Feb 23 10:21:45 http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Ofono Feb 23 10:22:20 Stskeeps: usable as in there is a contacts list, and i can select one and call him/her Feb 23 10:22:31 no, you going to write it? ;) Feb 23 10:22:36 Stskeeps: hell no Feb 23 10:22:54 Stskeeps: i might write one for none accelerated devices with 240x320 screen Feb 23 10:23:41 i've been threatening to make a ncurses dialing program for a while now Feb 23 10:23:47 might actually be possible with ofono Feb 23 10:23:54 ali1234: well, maybe my expectations are beyond "candle" and that stuff. I looked in the ovi thing right now and really have a hard time finding anything usefull that is not oin some kind of demo level. At least compare to most things i installed from the extras repository... Feb 23 10:24:43 Tachikoma: right, it is empty. but not because nokia didn't finish it. it's empty because nobody knows if the n900 is even going to be worth it Feb 23 10:25:08 Tachikoma: by the time some commercial app gets finished reinventing the wheel, N900 will probably be unsupported and everyone will have a new phone with a different api Feb 23 10:25:27 Tachikoma: until we see some actual meego release we won't know Feb 23 10:25:37 Tachikoma: and that is why ovi is empty Feb 23 10:25:55 ali1234: mh, it was empty before anything about meego was announced Feb 23 10:26:29 Tachikoma: maemo 6 was announced with a totally different API before N900 was even released Feb 23 10:26:49 Tachikoma: meego is really just the same thing by a different name Feb 23 10:26:52 Stskeeps: I mean, receive a call, and call a specific number Feb 23 10:27:18 blino: not on sound level Feb 23 10:27:23 Tachikoma: and if you look at history... well nokia has a terrible record for supporting older devices Feb 23 10:27:25 but ofono is getting developed Feb 23 10:27:51 ali1234: so, you say, as long as there is something announced for the future, nobody is interested in the present? That would explain wwhy apple is so successful in getting apps in their store - they basically announce nothing at all .... Feb 23 10:28:14 Tachikoma: yes, they announce nothing, and also the iphones are backwards compatible for most thing Feb 23 10:28:49 Tachikoma: also don't forget that even then, it took a long time for the iphone app store to actually get apps Feb 23 10:30:52 I guess as long there is no finished meego, there won;t be any commercial apps for it then as well ... Feb 23 10:31:06 And god beware anyone announcing something for later ;) Feb 23 10:50:22 I just contacted nvidia about getting a tegra board, so we'll see what happens Feb 23 10:51:04 actually, now would be a golden moment to grind some cash in ovi store Feb 23 10:51:07 not much competition Feb 23 10:51:34 villemv: agreed, just pop in some nice 3d games Feb 23 10:51:39 unless you are doing a "funny video" Feb 23 10:51:44 rotfl Feb 23 10:52:00 do these videos now play on n900 or are they still drm'ed Feb 23 10:52:02 or since apple is banning anything erotic, new area for n900 Feb 23 10:52:18 I wouldn't be surprised if they just stayed there despite not being able to play them Feb 23 10:52:21 Stskeeps: I like your way of thinking Feb 23 10:52:21 yeah, just start uploading files from empornium Feb 23 10:52:24 :) Feb 23 10:52:50 benbrown: the success of a mobile device depends on how easy it is to watch porn on it Feb 23 10:52:53 friend-of-frient had a job where he was making short mobile clips about full-length adult movien Feb 23 10:52:53 :P Feb 23 10:53:26 Saw a nice big Ovi advert int he cinema yesterday Feb 23 10:53:40 Stskeeps: well, not sure about mobile devices - but I'm convinced that unless you get porn for it the whole 3D Tv stuff will not be a big market ;) Feb 23 10:53:59 well, you got internet on it, which === porn Feb 23 10:54:12 though web runtime apps for specific sites would help Feb 23 10:54:16 ali1234: it might also help if it was easier to register as a dev and if they actually started replying to mails Feb 23 10:54:18 the real problem with ovi is that it's hard to register and impossible to get contact with them about anything (help to register or otherwise) Feb 23 10:54:18 The porn industry will make or break any new tech, it's always been that way Feb 23 10:54:24 brik++ Feb 23 10:54:41 w00t: well, I'd register if there would be asingle app that i could use ... Feb 23 10:54:45 they seem to direct mails into a gigantic black hole marked 'ignore' Feb 23 10:54:45 brik: it might be easier to register as a dev if more than about three people actually attempted it :) Feb 23 10:54:53 Tachikoma: i'm not talking about end user registration Feb 23 10:54:53 up to now i did not even attempt to register Feb 23 10:55:01 Tachikoma: i'm talking about *developer* registration Feb 23 10:55:22 I don't see the point of ovi. N900 for me is about open source, I don't want to buy apps for it. Feb 23 10:55:27 w00t: oh, ok - well that was what i read about before and meant in the beginning when I wrote that ovi does not get it working right Feb 23 10:55:43 benbrown: not ever angry birds levels?!? Feb 23 10:55:45 ;-) Feb 23 10:56:16 I want angry birds levels :( Feb 23 10:56:29 Or that cool rollercoaster game? :) Feb 23 10:56:43 i want decent documentation for OBS but i'm not going to get it Feb 23 10:56:44 brik: isnt' there a thread on creating your own on maemo talk? Feb 23 10:56:55 not sure Feb 23 10:57:04 brik: but right - it says at the end of the game that i could buy some - but i can't Feb 23 10:57:05 Tachikoma: there is, but i'd personally rather support the developer as well as that Feb 23 10:57:55 Tachikoma: ya, earlier the link directed you to a site saying they're not available yet Feb 23 10:58:57 obviously someone is either not interested in making money or someone doesn't the stuff working the way it's supposed to be. Never been so hard to get rid of my money ;) Feb 23 10:59:17 there is a "get" missing after "someone" Feb 23 10:59:25 there is a "get" missing after "someone doesn't" Feb 23 10:59:29 * Tachikoma gets coffee .... Feb 23 11:07:13 jku, what's happening with the trunk repo's ? Feb 23 11:10:51 hi Feb 23 11:10:56 slaine_, I don't know Feb 23 11:11:28 jku, can you access it ? Feb 23 11:11:30 build.moblin.org seems to be a better indicator anyway Feb 23 11:11:44 benbrown: other people may want to buy apps Feb 23 11:12:18 yeah, I guess. Any I write will be gpl'd, so people can laugh at my code. Feb 23 11:13:15 slaine_, not any public repo, no. Very unfortunately. Feb 23 11:13:27 hopefully that'll change in due time :) Feb 23 11:14:37 stskeeps: today i got some yellow screen on my UI when i use GLES 2.0... put its just blank yello wUI Feb 23 11:14:39 Stskeeps: how does one get an account on build.moblin.org ? Feb 23 11:14:55 jku: I seriously hope that wasn't pulled because people where actually using it Feb 23 11:15:48 yellow screen looks familiar Feb 23 11:15:57 yeah, i've seen it before Feb 23 11:15:57 I got that on my touchbook :) Feb 23 11:16:31 sri_: still GLX: error message? Feb 23 11:16:50 it seems to happen if you init EGL but don't draw anything or clear the screen Feb 23 11:19:08 ali1234: hmhm, I had yellowish screen but could see the notification area Feb 23 11:19:22 well yeah, only the EGL window will be yellow Feb 23 11:20:22 * Stskeeps wonders why his newly flashed n900 with emmc and all is restarting status area Feb 23 11:21:16 hmm i wonder... Feb 23 11:21:35 maybe these rpms failed to compile because they have hardcoded SSSE3 instructions in them? Feb 23 11:21:53 ie inline asm Feb 23 11:21:55 someone needs to be shot if they do Feb 23 11:22:59 i'm still no closer to figuring out how to bootstrap properly Feb 23 11:23:12 god knows what i'm supposed to do if i wanted to port to a totally different arch Feb 23 11:23:47 like say ppc Feb 23 11:24:06 I tried porting mono to symbian Feb 23 11:24:16 well, that was quit short by inline asm Feb 23 11:24:37 but I guess it's forgivable in case of mono as it generates asm ;-) Feb 23 11:24:54 thing is, i'm not actually trying to port anything. i just want to recompile all moblin 2.1 srpms without the SSSE3 requirement Feb 23 11:24:56 you take an existing distro, load it into OBS, then build on top of that distro all your packages, and then build your distro on top of the packages you generated, freeing yourself of upstream Feb 23 11:25:30 ali1234: so did you get some errors then? Feb 23 11:25:36 Stskeeps: i can't see any way to load a distro into OBS, i only get a choice of a specific set of build repositories, none of which is moblin Feb 23 11:25:37 ali1234: fwiw you can probably do this trick on the public OBS Feb 23 11:25:43 and add your own packages Feb 23 11:25:52 i can't even see a sane way to add packages Feb 23 11:25:54 ali1234: yes, and in 'advanced' you can indicate your own build repos Feb 23 11:26:07 Stskeeps: no, you can't all you can do is select an existing repo and give it a new name Feb 23 11:26:13 ali1234: It's pretty trickyu Feb 23 11:26:33 ali1234: it isn't obvious, but it is possible. i will be interested in non-SSSE3 MeeGo too. Feb 23 11:26:44 when the build infra is up, i hope there's rooms for experiments Feb 23 11:26:56 villemv: i'm picking through the logs now Feb 23 11:27:09 villemv: to be honest, a lot of it looks like plain and simple broken rpms Feb 23 11:27:14 villemv: which worries me Feb 23 11:27:24 do you resolve dependancies with your own generatedpackage repo? Feb 23 11:27:29 (you should) Feb 23 11:27:35 Stskeeps: no, we went through this yesterday :) Feb 23 11:27:49 Stskeeps: i'm currently compiling everything against the vanilla binaries Feb 23 11:28:18 I wrote some scripts some time back to pull down the .src.rpm files for a moblin release and rebuild them with specific CC flags Feb 23 11:28:49 unfortunately, lots of the moblin src.rpms wouldn't build on moblin, you needed to make them via the obs Feb 23 11:28:52 http://moblin.org/documentation/building-moblin-packages-natively Feb 23 11:29:07 I never got back to it Feb 23 11:29:12 ah, well, that would be the problem then, i'm building in a moblin chroot Feb 23 11:29:22 ali1234: yup, same thing I did Feb 23 11:29:26 so moblin isn't even self hosting... Feb 23 11:29:45 Nope, if you search the moblin archives you'll see my complaints Feb 23 11:29:50 pretty lame Feb 23 11:29:59 well, in that case, i give up Feb 23 11:30:08 at least until someone write proper documentation on using OBS Feb 23 11:30:10 try the link above Feb 23 11:30:23 If I get back to it, I'll let you know Feb 23 11:31:12 slaine_: i'm using mock not build, but it's the same thing really Feb 23 11:31:37 If the chroot is persistent then that's the problem Feb 23 11:31:45 it isn't, it rebuilds it every time Feb 23 11:31:53 hmmm, it should work then Feb 23 11:31:53 at least it is supposed to Feb 23 11:32:01 only avery small number of packages failed Feb 23 11:32:07 how many ? Feb 23 11:32:32 http://pastebin.ca/1806563 Feb 23 11:32:36 the list ^ Feb 23 11:32:37 I think the last batch I worked on are here, http://slaine.org/moblin/ Feb 23 11:32:48 http://pastebin.ca/1806564 <- log from failed tar package Feb 23 11:33:19 if you click on each of my failed ones, you'll see the logs Feb 23 11:33:34 hmm completely different set Feb 23 11:34:10 I did fix that /usr/share/info/dir problem Feb 23 11:34:28 hmm, so it's same kind of problems at least Feb 23 11:35:08 remove /sbin and /usr/sbin from your path when building Feb 23 11:35:50 try that for tar and see how you get on Feb 23 11:36:13 so will those build instructions avoid the dependency problem or will it just do what i am doing now wrt building against my new packages vs the originals? Feb 23 11:36:25 ? Feb 23 11:36:43 Oh, the ones I pasted above ? Feb 23 11:36:49 yes Feb 23 11:37:08 My guess is that the obs build user won't have sbin /usr/sbin in the path, and so avoid it Feb 23 11:37:19 no, that's not what i eman Feb 23 11:37:32 sorry, I'm not following then Feb 23 11:37:49 say i rebuild glibc, will subsequent packages i rebuild use my new glibc or the intel one that needs SSSE3 Feb 23 11:38:08 and will it automatically build everything in the right order? Feb 23 11:38:21 no idea, I never got around to following them Feb 23 11:38:35 hmm fair enough Feb 23 11:38:37 i wrote my own build scripts before that was posted Feb 23 11:38:44 they didn't work, I complained Feb 23 11:38:52 someone wrote that aftwards Feb 23 11:38:58 i see Feb 23 11:39:30 well, one way to find out i guess Feb 23 11:39:32 I brought the topic up again around xmas and someone pointed that out to me, I book marked it but never got back to it Feb 23 11:39:39 I'd stick with your own Feb 23 11:39:53 my own doesn't work and has the fatal flaw of not doing what i want Feb 23 11:39:58 ah Feb 23 11:40:17 it just rebuilds every rpms in sequence against the intel ones Feb 23 11:40:23 would be interested to see how many of the failed packages went away if you removed /sbin and /usr/sbin from the path Feb 23 11:40:31 That's what mind didn Feb 23 11:40:32 did Feb 23 11:40:33 the rebuilt rpms never get used for future builds, and i have no dependency resolution to allow it Feb 23 11:40:43 for file in $files..... Feb 23 11:40:46 right Feb 23 11:41:28 build --repo /path/to/repo/mirror --target i586 Feb 23 11:41:41 I don't know of obs bootstraps the chroot like how you want Feb 23 11:41:58 that looks like it should at least attempt to do what i want Feb 23 11:42:26 I at least tried that, didn't work off the bat, didn't have time to figure out why Feb 23 11:42:36 although i suspect if i say "--target i386" it is going to say "sorry i don't have packages for that" Feb 23 11:42:40 iirc, it complained about missint spec files Feb 23 11:43:18 586 isn't where the SSE3 came from, I think it was based on some CFLAGS that where either part of the env or exported in the rpm macros Feb 23 11:44:16 That should be easy to check Feb 23 11:44:40 and once again: you will need SSSE3 Feb 23 11:45:03 RST38h: i am trying to compile all moblin 2.1 without SSSE3 support Feb 23 11:45:07 it *should* be easy Feb 23 11:45:11 unfortunately it isn't Feb 23 11:45:59 ali1234: Why do you want moblin without SSE3? Feb 23 11:46:00 YOu should do global search through makefiles for -msse3 and -mssse3 Feb 23 11:46:22 RST38h: that isn't the problem Feb 23 11:46:23 Once you find them, remove and try to recompile Feb 23 11:46:31 so what is the problem? Feb 23 11:46:32 RST38h: the problem is even recompiling moblin at all doesn't work Feb 23 11:46:47 sharpneli: to run it on machines that don't have core2 or better Feb 23 11:46:59 ali1234: Well, it works for intel employees recompiling moblin inside intel Feb 23 11:47:04 * RST38h cackles Feb 23 11:47:07 RST38h: they use their private OBS Feb 23 11:47:16 wasn't this the original design idea of moblin, to only run onthat hardware? Feb 23 11:47:29 Tachikoma: yes but it is a totally arbitrary limitation Feb 23 11:47:30 ali1234: This effectively means you are not supposed to recompile moblin Feb 23 11:47:35 At least not yet. Feb 23 11:47:38 Tachikoma: (unless they put in loads of inline asm) Feb 23 11:47:45 RST38h: yes, it does Feb 23 11:48:09 RST38h: and in the future it effectively means you are not supposed to recompile meego unless intel and nokia grace you with a login for their OBS Feb 23 11:48:13 ali1234: well, somehow I guess they would have tried to enforce it, using inline asm seems a way to do so ... Feb 23 11:48:36 ali1234: atom has SSE3. You want moblin for older x86 processors? I think due to atom it's quite understandable why they dont bother making the system work without sse3 Feb 23 11:48:39 ali1234: The best strategy would be to wait for 1-3 months until the great corporate powers (tm) figure this out between themselves and publish buildable sources Feb 23 11:48:59 RST38h: the moblin sources are supposed to be buildable Feb 23 11:49:00 Moblin specifically targets Atom CPUs Feb 23 11:49:22 ali1234: Well you just said they are not, so it does not matter Feb 23 11:49:33 sharpneli: yes, i want moblin for older intel processors, and also amd processors Feb 23 11:49:49 RST38h: none of what you said matters :) Feb 23 11:50:32 If you have a lot of time to spend, it does not, correct Feb 23 11:51:01 the hw requirements were because they intended to use NX bit, afair Feb 23 11:51:23 that means, security reasons (data pages not marked as exeuctables) Feb 23 11:51:27 executables, even Feb 23 11:51:58 but I don't see why this should be enforced at the source level, though :) Feb 23 11:52:08 (and indeed it's not where the problem lie, is it?) Feb 23 11:52:31 it isn't Feb 23 11:52:56 the problem lies in the fact that a moblin chroot cannot compile all moblin rpms Feb 23 11:53:03 Corsac: NX bit appeared somewhere in Prescotts and it has nothing to do with Atoms or SSSE3 Feb 23 11:53:06 at least not without hacking around Feb 23 11:53:21 RST38h: tbh I wasn't even speaking about sse3 but about hw requirements Feb 23 11:53:26 and, at least for moblin 2.1, the curerent release Feb 23 11:53:27 Oh ok Feb 23 11:53:39 But NX is pretty widespread, and it is optional anyway Feb 23 11:53:43 RST38h: /but/ it might be that they targetted something more recent to be sure NX was present Feb 23 11:53:54 as I said, Prescott. Feb 23 11:54:03 SSSE3 was used because it is much faster than x87 floating point Feb 23 11:54:08 which is fair enough Feb 23 11:54:15 Maybe there are lot of algorithms there written requiring the sse3 includes. And no-one bothers to write them twice. Feb 23 11:54:22 but there is supposedly no technical reason it can't be recompiled for other arch Feb 23 11:55:00 you just can't do it without OBS Feb 23 11:55:25 ali1234: did you document your work so other people can try? Feb 23 11:55:30 Corsac: yes Feb 23 11:55:38 mind giving me the url? Feb 23 11:55:39 :) Feb 23 11:55:41 They used SSSE3 as they claimed it gave them a 15-20% improvement with graphical applications Feb 23 11:56:03 I wanted to use Moblin Foundation on non Atom hardware and hence why I tried to rebuild it last year Feb 23 11:56:22 timeless: new IP: 184.73.240.82, dns entry forthcoming Feb 23 11:57:43 Corsac: http://pastebin.ca/1806676 Feb 23 11:59:00 thanks Feb 23 11:59:34 timeless: mxr.moego.org sry for egocentric domain, but it was just too tempting ;) Feb 23 12:00:40 ali1234: what host os where you using ? Feb 23 12:00:47 slaine_: ubuntu 9.10 Feb 23 12:00:50 ali1234: Have you tried to search how many files depend on emmintrin.h or whichever of those was the sse3 spesific? Feb 23 12:00:58 hmmm, k Feb 23 12:01:10 sharpneli: no, because i didn't even get as far as trying to turn off ssse3 Feb 23 12:01:15 did the above build command work ? Feb 23 12:01:17 Ah. Feb 23 12:01:22 slaine_: didn't try it yet Feb 23 12:01:26 k Feb 23 12:01:46 slaine_: ubuntu 9.10 doesnt have build in the repo, but there is a suse repo for it for 9.10 which i have installed Feb 23 12:02:05 but i will need to mirror all the rest of the moblin repo first anyway Feb 23 12:02:13 i only have the srpms and themock cache Feb 23 12:02:19 i can probably sort something out fromthat Feb 23 12:02:20 I'll try it now Feb 23 12:02:30 as I have all the src rpms downloaded Feb 23 12:02:44 i think you need the binaries too... Feb 23 12:03:19 also the link you have to mirror 404s Feb 23 12:10:03 I'm not getting a 404 Feb 23 12:10:18 http://repo.moblin.org/moblin/development/core/ia32/os/ Feb 23 12:10:49 404s for me Feb 23 12:12:17 if it was structured the same way as ftp.moblin.org then it only points to binary rpms Feb 23 12:14:27 I get "no spec files or src rpms found in...." when I try it Feb 23 12:15:00 you probably need repospec? Feb 23 12:15:39 i suspect it needs binary rpms not src rpms, and gets the src rpms from the repospec Feb 23 12:15:53 hmmm Feb 23 12:16:24 seem a bit chicken and egg Feb 23 12:17:58 indeed Feb 23 12:18:18 i certainly appreciate portage a lot more now Feb 23 12:58:07 hi,everybody Feb 23 12:58:25 hi Feb 23 13:04:21 ok. Am I missing something here? Per http://meego.com/about/governance Imad Sousou and Valtteri Halla are the technical "leaders" of MeeGo. AFAICT neither has posted a single message to meego-dev or -community. Feb 23 13:05:34 jebba, that's because they're busy planning how they're going to take over the world Feb 23 13:05:39 I guess Feb 23 13:05:44 jebba: imad has been hanging out here, so that's one thing :P Feb 23 13:05:49 jebba: They are the Steering Comittee and will talk to Working groups. Feb 23 13:05:50 imad was on here a few times Feb 23 13:06:24 The working groups would need to do the work it seems. Feb 23 13:08:38 what's imad's nick? Feb 23 13:09:06 imad(sometimes imadx) Feb 23 13:09:28 hmm, cuz that doesn't turn up hits using google searching irc logs. Feb 23 13:09:37 irc logs were inactive in the start Feb 23 13:10:26 ok. Well great. No wonder I can't figure out WTF kind of work I should do for the project. The "leaders" are MIA. Feb 23 13:11:18 "10: Silence. Don't answer queries, don't say anything. A company which masters this technique may not need any of the others; it is the most effective community destroyer of them all. " Feb 23 13:11:45 jebba: i think it's best to get code on the table first, and the first meeting in community is tomorrow Feb 23 13:11:49 and TSG soon Feb 23 13:12:18 jebba: To be fair, Nokia is relatively open about its plans Feb 23 13:12:56 jebba: Although you have to speak to the right people. Peter is a right person for example but Quim is not Feb 23 13:13:36 I'm not sure who Peter is, but Quim for sure. But he seems to have more questions than answers. Feb 23 13:13:55 He's also contradicted what Intel eng's have said to me Feb 23 13:14:01 so it's hard to know Feb 23 13:14:40 I'm a bit perplexed how Maemo6/harmattan will become MeeGo/harmattan if there is the transition to RPM, but harmattan will still be based on deb. Feb 23 13:14:44 ali1234: hmhm but your howto is about building “some” rpms, not about building an image, is it? Feb 23 13:14:59 jebba: Peter Schneider, Maemo marketing Feb 23 13:15:01 Corsac: after you built all the rpms you make an image using MIC Feb 23 13:15:09 or so i was told Feb 23 13:15:12 jebba: Obviously it is marketing ;) Feb 23 13:15:16 ali1234: and from where did you get the rpm list? Feb 23 13:15:38 Corsac: http://ftp.moblin.org/moblin/releases/2.1/source/ Feb 23 13:15:40 jebba: Real MeeGo will be > Harmattan and > Moblin 2.2 it seems. Feb 23 13:15:41 jebba: ah, that one i wonder about too Feb 23 13:15:53 Can meego support imx31? Feb 23 13:16:38 hey jebba Feb 23 13:16:54 ali1234: hmhm but there's nothing to cook all the stuff together? Feb 23 13:17:01 or was it mic purpose? Feb 23 13:17:01 Corsac: MIC does that Feb 23 13:17:03 X-Fade: well then the first "real" meego/nokia device is like a year+ off. Seems if they are taking the plunge to meego, they might as well break over to RPM asap. Feb 23 13:17:09 hey lbt_ Feb 23 13:17:46 timjiang: http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process Feb 23 13:17:47 jebba: Problem I see is that we only got an announcement, it is nothing more at the moment. Feb 23 13:17:59 and rest is left to well, decide and code Feb 23 13:17:59 jebba: people expect it to be more than it is atm. Feb 23 13:17:59 :P Feb 23 13:18:43 problem with that announcement is that it basically stopped everything else until people know more Feb 23 13:19:24 Corsac: It would have been better to publish a timeframe, yes. Feb 23 13:19:56 Corsac: ali1234 MIC doesn't do everything Feb 23 13:20:15 slaine_: it takes a bunch of binary rpms and makes them into a bootable image... Feb 23 13:20:40 slaine_: but since we didn't get as far as building all RPMs yet, i didn't even try it, so it isn't in my log Feb 23 13:20:49 well, yes, but it doesn't make the binary rpms, which is what Corsac was referring to I think Feb 23 13:20:59 yeah but I was more speaking about a script/tool which would take a config file in input and give an image at output :) Feb 23 13:21:00 X-Fade: My crystal balls say they will roll out the details and the first code delivery around March 2-5 Feb 23 13:21:09 X-Fade: i.e. will time it to CeBIT Feb 23 13:21:11 RST38h: you have crystal balls? Feb 23 13:21:21 Corsac: You didn't know? Feb 23 13:21:29 Corsac: yeah and MIC is that tool but it needs you to supply it with binary RPMs too Feb 23 13:21:48 RST38h: I usually don't look there Feb 23 13:21:51 RST38h: You can create pretty slides and displays without going into the technical details :) Feb 23 13:21:56 which is the sticking point, we can't build them, so all we can do is build the same image as on moblin.org Feb 23 13:21:59 ali1234: then it's not that tool ;p Feb 23 13:22:01 ali1234: well, it needs you to supply it a repo Feb 23 13:22:15 slaine_: the point was to rebuild everything from scratch Feb 23 13:22:16 Corsac: yeah, there is no tool which bootstraps an image from source in one step Feb 23 13:22:23 Corsac: yes Feb 23 13:22:25 X-Fade: Yea, but you will still end up revealing more details than an empty website and a mailing list =) Feb 23 13:22:43 except possibly OBS, if you can figure out how it works. and you will need to set up your own instance Feb 23 13:23:12 * RST38h starting to suspect that there is no real SDK for developing under Moblin Feb 23 13:23:17 ali1234: oh, it seems you where write, that build thing is for building a local source directory against a repo Feb 23 13:23:20 RST38h: not yet Feb 23 13:23:27 RST38h: we're working on the MeeGo SDK Feb 23 13:23:34 slaine_: yep, so it's the same as what i am doing with mock Feb 23 13:23:36 thiago: How familiar Feb 23 13:23:59 thiago: So, will you use Scratchbox then? =) Feb 23 13:24:02 * RST38h snickers Feb 23 13:24:06 except mock properly handles .src.rpms Feb 23 13:24:09 RST38h: hopefully not :-) Feb 23 13:24:15 slaine_: build does too Feb 23 13:24:15 RST38h: I'd rather something like MADDE Feb 23 13:24:33 slaine_: build and mock are practically the same tool reimplemented Feb 23 13:24:35 thiago: But, I mean, given that OBS appears to be some server based tool for remote building... Feb 23 13:24:52 RST38h: that's not SDK. That's distro building. Feb 23 13:24:54 thiago: This leaves us with SB (or hopefully SB2) and Madde Feb 23 13:24:56 RST38h: OBS isn't just for remote building. it's just that you need a login even if you want to use it locally Feb 23 13:25:06 RST38h: once you have the package done, you submit it to the integration system. Feb 23 13:25:14 RST38h: it's kind of like if you need a login on MSDN to be able to use visual studio... Feb 23 13:25:16 ali1234: I.e., it's a made for servers Feb 23 13:25:19 RST38h: but before you get there, you need to develop the application. That's where the SDK comes in. Feb 23 13:25:31 * RST38h does not need to login to MSDN to use Visual Studio Feb 23 13:25:36 RST38h: exactly Feb 23 13:25:43 that being said, it shouldn't be that hard to develop directly under moblin Feb 23 13:25:57 meego, sorry :) Feb 23 13:25:58 thiago: Ok, so OBS is the autobuilder. Feb 23 13:26:05 thiago: Who is gonna be the scratchbox? Feb 23 13:26:45 RST38h: the developer who just wants to make apps for MeeGo. Feb 23 13:27:07 thiago: ??? Feb 23 13:27:16 not "use", "be" Feb 23 13:27:29 be? Feb 23 13:27:33 RST38h: OBS is the scratchbox too Feb 23 13:27:33 sorry? Feb 23 13:27:42 What tool will replace the scratchbox? Feb 23 13:27:52 is it only my impression ow from the webpage, wiki and such that beside the marketing/cooperate/strategic whatever announcements the whole meego thing is still pretty much in headless chicken mode or do i just get the wrong impression? Feb 23 13:27:53 why do you want the scratchbox? Feb 23 13:27:58 * RST38h wonders if Moblin had *any* application developers outside Intel so far Feb 23 13:28:11 thiago: Well, let us see Feb 23 13:28:48 thiago: I have got an Ubuntu laptop here where I develop software. I have to compile and package some app for Maeblin on this laptop Feb 23 13:28:57 RST38h: ok Feb 23 13:29:13 thiago: With Maemo, things are rather clear: I type "sb2 make", SB2 starts make inside chrooted Maemo environment Feb 23 13:29:30 thiago: What do I do in Moblin or Maeblin? Feb 23 13:29:37 RST38h: make Feb 23 13:29:41 Just make? Feb 23 13:29:43 RST38h: yes Feb 23 13:29:47 RST38h: I developed on my Moblin netbook or on a chroot'd image Feb 23 13:29:55 RST38h: with a properly pre-configured cross-compilation environment Feb 23 13:30:03 thiago: so that will also build arm binaries ? Feb 23 13:30:03 thiago: How does it handle me running Ubuntu? Feb 23 13:30:07 on a intel machine? Feb 23 13:30:10 thiago: On i386 arch? Feb 23 13:30:11 RST38h: what does that have to do with Ubuntu? Feb 23 13:30:12 out of the box? Feb 23 13:30:15 Tachikoma: cross-compilation Feb 23 13:30:21 Moblin wasn't quite the same as maemo as it wasn't quit targetting a cross platform embedded env. so no tools where setup like that. Feb 23 13:30:25 thiago: Once again: I have an i386 laptop with Ubuntu Feb 23 13:30:28 RST38h: so? Feb 23 13:30:31 what's the problem? Feb 23 13:30:33 thiago: yes, i know, I ask if that is working - out of the box as with scratchbosx Feb 23 13:30:43 I'm not following Feb 23 13:30:46 thiago: I need to compile an armel-arch Maeblin package with it. What do I do/ Feb 23 13:30:56 I develop Qt for Maemo 5 by typing "make" on my Mandriva x86 Feb 23 13:30:57 thiago: Just typing "make" will compile me a package for i386 Ubuntu Feb 23 13:31:11 RST38h: not if you configured it for cross-compilation first. Feb 23 13:31:16 I guess you have to setup crosscompiling Feb 23 13:31:22 RST38h: or if you're using a Qt version that was cross-compiled. Feb 23 13:31:25 which is documented where exactly? ;) Feb 23 13:31:31 thiago: how will i compile a package for meego-arm without an internet connection and without compiling it on actual hardware? what SDK solution will be provided by meego to enable this use case? Feb 23 13:31:42 ali1234: the SDK solution is not defined Feb 23 13:31:48 ask how one cross-compiles emacs (or something else that needs to run the cross-compiled object as part of the build process) without something like sb2 Feb 23 13:31:52 but will probably be based on Qt, which means you just need to do qmake && make Feb 23 13:31:54 nor is the toolchain Feb 23 13:31:57 thiago: Ok, then how do I configure it for cross compilation? Feb 23 13:32:04 RST38h: qmake (if it's a Qt app) Feb 23 13:32:17 RST38h: if it's not qmake-based, then use whatever means the tool provides for cross-compilation Feb 23 13:32:18 I guess i'll just continue developing for maemo and wait for maego to be more ready for me Feb 23 13:32:22 thiago: What if it is a non-Qt app? A hiello world app? Feb 23 13:32:32 autoconf does have that. configure --target=arm-none-linux-gnueabi Feb 23 13:32:34 use bitbake! Feb 23 13:32:37 thiago: what tool? Feb 23 13:32:41 thiago: what if the package is python? Feb 23 13:32:48 thiago: Ok, let me make it really simple: Feb 23 13:32:52 thiago: not written in python. actual python. Feb 23 13:32:59 ali1234: why do you want to rebuild python? Feb 23 13:33:04 thiago: I have a 10-line hello.c that does printf("Hello World\n") Feb 23 13:33:14 thiago: to provide a counter example to your question dodging, basically :) Feb 23 13:33:20 RST38h: arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc -o hello hello.c Feb 23 13:33:25 thiago: How do I compile it into armel-arch Maeblin binary? On i386 Ubuntu? Feb 23 13:33:31 Ok Feb 23 13:33:36 Now there is a light Feb 23 13:33:43 RST38h: when an app is that simple, cross compilation is dead easy :) Feb 23 13:33:47 you would want to rebuild python because you have just fixed a bug in it ... Feb 23 13:34:01 RST38h: but a lot of apps cannot be cross compiled, canonical example is python interpreter Feb 23 13:34:04 Very nice, I compile an Armel binary. What libraries does it link it against? Feb 23 13:34:17 ali1234: I am not compiling python interpreters, all my apps compile Feb 23 13:34:20 the ones provided with the SDK Feb 23 13:34:25 $ arm-none-linux-gnueabi-gcc -o hello -xc - <<<'#include Feb 23 13:34:25 quote> int main() { printf("Hello, world\n"); }' Feb 23 13:34:33 ali1234: another example is an app that tries to run the compiled executable as part of the build process Feb 23 13:34:34 $ file hello Feb 23 13:34:34 hello: ELF 32-bit LSB executable, ARM, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.14, not stripped Feb 23 13:34:38 Ahha, so it is a proper toolchain, pretty much like Open Embedded Feb 23 13:34:41 Right? Feb 23 13:34:42 rwhitby: yeah, that is why python fails Feb 23 13:34:52 RST38h: yes Feb 23 13:35:18 at least, that's what I *hope* it will be Feb 23 13:35:24 it's not decided, nor is it even my decision to make Feb 23 13:35:53 maybe there will be a SB for the packages that are more complex than hello.c but don't provide a cross-compilation mechanism. Feb 23 13:36:10 but I expect that to be part of the "platform development SDK", not the "application development SDK" Feb 23 13:37:26 ali1234: though binfmt+qemu-static can help Feb 23 13:37:30 thiago: Oh but even a proper OE-styled toolchain is not there yet? Even for i386? Feb 23 13:37:43 RST38h: you don't need cross-compilation for i386 :-) Feb 23 13:37:48 RST38h: but no, it's not there. Feb 23 13:37:56 we're working on it Feb 23 13:38:01 thiago: I still need to link to the right libs, so still need a different toolchain Feb 23 13:38:04 RST38h: for i386 you can just use a chroot. as long as you don't want to recompile actual moblin packages Feb 23 13:38:05 right Feb 23 13:38:22 RST38h: you need the libraries and the toolchain, even if it's not cross-compilation. Feb 23 13:38:40 the problem is that, right now, the Moblin SDK is Moblin itself. You install it in a VM and compile inside it. Feb 23 13:38:44 * lbt_ looks back at the FUD for OBS... Feb 23 13:38:47 the Maemo 6 SDK is non-existant Feb 23 13:38:48 Oh Feb 23 13:38:51 well, non-public Feb 23 13:39:01 thiao: SB2. Feb 23 13:39:02 OBS is not server-only Feb 23 13:39:04 what we want for MeeGo is something better. Feb 23 13:39:16 lbt_: there you go making contradictory statements again Feb 23 13:39:17 OBS will do the same job as sb2 Feb 23 13:39:20 hopefully as easy as compiling for Windows CE on Visual Studio or for the iPhone with XCode. Feb 23 13:39:22 ali1234: stfu :) Feb 23 13:39:24 lbt: the way ali describes it, it is server-only, you just run server locally Feb 23 13:39:24 lbt_: so how do i run it without a server? Feb 23 13:39:38 you simply select on Creator "I want to build now for MeeGo x86" and it will do it for you. Feb 23 13:39:45 * RST38h not sure WinCE and iPhone are good analogies here Feb 23 13:39:54 RST38h: he seems to be an anti-novell troll Feb 23 13:39:55 RST38h: they're our benchmarks. Feb 23 13:40:06 thiago: Please note that I, personally, do not use Creator Feb 23 13:40:15 RST38h: you can use the toolchain outside Creator, of course. Feb 23 13:40:24 thiago: Got a simple X11-bound app that I compile by typing make Feb 23 13:40:25 RST38h: even if you're using Qt Feb 23 13:40:36 for local building, consider OBS to be a chroot creator Feb 23 13:40:47 RST38h: hopefully it will be basically just changing $(CC) in your Makefile Feb 23 13:40:59 well, that's the root of the change Feb 23 13:41:04 lbt: If it is indeed a chroot thing, that would be nice Feb 23 13:41:11 to make a Moblin package you do : osc co Moblin:Trunk $pkg; osc build Feb 23 13:41:15 that's it Feb 23 13:41:16 if your app compiles and runs a tool during its build, it needs to know about $(HOSTCC) too Feb 23 13:41:21 thiago: $(CC) and $(LD) and $(CPP) Feb 23 13:41:36 if it does configure-time checks (like autoconf), it needs to learn how to do cross-compilation checks. Feb 23 13:41:46 RST38h: right, of course. Feb 23 13:41:57 thiao: ok, this stuff will work for me, I am already using it with the OE toolchains Feb 23 13:41:57 thiago: or you could have it all taken care off for you Feb 23 13:42:17 RST38h: in which case you'll be reinventing the wheel Feb 23 13:42:25 lbt_: not really. How is anything going to automatically detect that toolA needs to be host, while toolB should be ARM? Feb 23 13:42:31 :) Feb 23 13:42:41 it was hard Feb 23 13:42:46 FWIW, i just asked in #fedora-devel and mock won't just crosscompile for ARM on intel host magickally... that woulda been nice.... Feb 23 13:42:46 but we did it Feb 23 13:43:05 lbt_: automatically? Feb 23 13:43:10 lbt_: is there human intervention? Feb 23 13:43:14 essentially thiago we start with a pure emulated qemu Feb 23 13:43:24 stop. No CPU emulation. Feb 23 13:43:33 what is run during build should be host-compiled. Feb 23 13:43:38 what is installed should be cross-compiled. Feb 23 13:43:40 we allow that too Feb 23 13:43:47 if it is both run and installed, it should be compiled twice. Feb 23 13:43:49 we allow certain builders to be arm Feb 23 13:44:20 however, we *do* build a lot using qemu emulation Feb 23 13:44:22 lbt: Feb 23 13:44:25 the difference between a Qt cross-compiled build and an emulated build is in the order of hours Feb 23 13:44:32 from a couple to over 10 hours. Feb 23 13:44:34 thiago: I know I do it Feb 23 13:44:45 user level emulation, not system emulation, just fwiw Feb 23 13:44:47 I cross-compile Qt - it was my testcase Feb 23 13:44:57 application level, it is called Feb 23 13:44:58 good point Stskeeps Feb 23 13:45:06 lbt_: however, like I said, I do expect that to exist. Feb 23 13:45:11 I jsut don't expect it to be in the main SDK. Feb 23 13:45:17 the main SDK should do no CPU emulation. Feb 23 13:45:18 it exists in OBS Feb 23 13:45:29 which auto installs it for you Feb 23 13:45:30 thiago: main SDK is qt-only, is it not? Feb 23 13:45:31 thiago: I am afraid it will have to Feb 23 13:45:33 right, for platform build, and for the complex Linux packages that don't do proper cross-compilation. Feb 23 13:45:36 Stskeeps: yes. Feb 23 13:45:41 RST38h: no, I don't think it will have to. Feb 23 13:45:55 thiago: Better plan for it now than find out the hard way in 2-3 months Feb 23 13:45:58 thiago: right, this topic is for things that don't cross compile easily Feb 23 13:46:01 Stskeeps: that doesn't mean you can't use it for building non-Qt apps. Feb 23 13:46:02 which is non-qt stuff Feb 23 13:46:05 thiago: of course :) Feb 23 13:46:18 but my whole point is that the main SDK doesn't need to address that. Feb 23 13:46:25 it will have to be addressed, eventually, of course. Feb 23 13:46:25 thiago: Here is the problem you are gonna hit (and Nokia seemingly hit it already) Feb 23 13:47:01 thiago: Once you throw the doors open, all kinds of developers will flow in. Just a relatively small part of them will be Qt app developers. Feb 23 13:47:24 thiago: About the same percentage will be GTK+ devs some of whom will be diehards Feb 23 13:47:27 RST38h: true Feb 23 13:47:43 thiago: They will immediately bitch about lack of proper Gtk+ support in the SDK Feb 23 13:47:49 thiago: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/Cross_Build Feb 23 13:47:49 but the point is that we're trying to attract Qt-based developers, who will use Qt Creator and the main SDK. Feb 23 13:47:52 "promised" by Nokia btw Feb 23 13:47:59 we don't need to burden those with the tools from others Feb 23 13:48:01 but point taken Feb 23 13:48:11 RST38h: promised? Feb 23 13:48:18 thiago: The point is that you can't disregard all developers but Qt ones Feb 23 13:48:27 thiago: that approach builds all of Mer (and I found out this am, the N900/mer kernel) Feb 23 13:48:33 I use QT eclipse instead of Qt Creator. Feb 23 13:48:39 thiago: Yes, there was a promise that GtK+ still stays in Maemo6, just not being officially supported Feb 23 13:48:48 RST38h: Gtk+ will be community-supported Feb 23 13:48:52 isn't the problem that we are speaking two different languages atm? Feb 23 13:48:53 thiago: But this is not all yet. Let us screw Gtk+ for now Feb 23 13:49:07 thiago: Not if you cannot easily build Gtk+ apps from the official SDK Feb 23 13:49:12 one is for the application developer targetting Qt and MeeGo APIs, another is for building all things in a system Feb 23 13:49:12 the level of support it will have is entirely dependent on the community. Feb 23 13:49:45 thiago: Consider all these scripting language people, the ones who compile python, perl, tcl, even gcc for native armel arch Feb 23 13:49:50 second one can build the first kind of apps, even cross-compile it fast (OBS, _cross), first one can only build Qt apps/libs (MADDE, etc) Feb 23 13:50:04 thiago: They will not be able to do their work with your official SDK if it does not support emulation Feb 23 13:50:07 RST38h: why do they want to compile Python and/or Perl? Feb 23 13:50:09 it's already compiled? Feb 23 13:50:27 thiago: like was said above, i might find a bug, and not want to wait 3 months for an official fix Feb 23 13:50:33 * lbt_ checks to see if this is an OSS room Feb 23 13:50:38 thiago: Because they want it. For soe reason. Feb 23 13:50:46 I see Feb 23 13:50:53 thiago: Like, why is ali1234 trying to compile Moblin? Same reason Feb 23 13:50:55 btw, I am taking notes. Feb 23 13:51:06 of our names? ;) Feb 23 13:51:09 heh Feb 23 13:51:11 but I don't think it will be there because it takes a lot of work for us Feb 23 13:51:13 i do recompile ubuntu packages all the time when i find bugs :) Feb 23 13:51:21 thiago: Notice that Maemo has made it through all this stuff over the course of its evolution Feb 23 13:51:32 and no, i don't need a launchpad account to do so :) Feb 23 13:51:33 RST38h: the python packages will be part of a "Python Application SDK" provided by the community (probably the same people who maintain PyMaemo...) Feb 23 13:51:34 * lbt_ recompiles Qt to fix bugs/add features... Feb 23 13:52:10 lbt_: local osc build still requires an obs api key? Feb 23 13:52:21 god, we really need more information about MeeGo in here.. Feb 23 13:52:21 :P Feb 23 13:52:24 thiago: So, you will get a crowd of disappointed developers at the gates who expected to find a complete development kit and found a bunch of config files for Qt Creator instead Feb 23 13:52:33 Corsac: key? no. Login, yes Feb 23 13:52:44 RST38h: which will go for a Platform SDK instead. Feb 23 13:52:46 RST38h: for developers, you will just need to install this "application SDK" (together with the "default" Qt application SDK, if you want to use PySide for instance) to develop python applications Feb 23 13:52:53 lbt_: that's weird, do you know why it's needed for? Feb 23 13:52:59 Stskeeps: When/if it is available and properly advertized to them Feb 23 13:53:00 yes Feb 23 13:53:14 RST38h: i think we're getting ahead of ourselves atm Feb 23 13:53:23 RST38h: they haven't even fully bootstrapped meego on arm yet it looks like. Feb 23 13:53:34 Stskeeps: In the meanwhile there will be another pr clusterfuck in the best Maemo.org traditions :) Feb 23 13:53:36 Stskeeps: agreed :) Feb 23 13:53:39 Corsac: like many services, including t.m.o. we like people to login to use them. Feb 23 13:54:02 Corsac: one thing you need access to the OBS for is to get package dependency trees Feb 23 13:54:03 there is no public information of even an architecture char, for instance Feb 23 13:54:08 chart* Feb 23 13:54:15 lbt_: (which i don't understand why needs to be under key and lock) Feb 23 13:54:20 isn't chart published at meego.com? Feb 23 13:54:28 Stskeeps: it may not need it Feb 23 13:54:51 RST38h: I mean a chart detailed as http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture Feb 23 13:54:58 Stskeeps, Corsac, ali1234 OBS is GPL .... they accept patches. If you find this an issue then help fix it :) Feb 23 13:55:10 which mentions precisely the techologies and APIs involved Feb 23 13:55:15 lbt_: the issue isn't of code, it is of lack of documentation Feb 23 13:55:23 lbt_: for the final submit, I can imagine why it's useful to be online, but for local testing/building, why does it require a login? Feb 23 13:55:25 ali1234: the code is the docs Feb 23 13:55:49 Corsac: because it was written to and no-one cared Feb 23 13:56:21 very few people care about using nw services nowadays. Feb 23 13:56:33 ok, so it's indeed a “web”-service, and its purpose it definitely not to be a sdk Feb 23 13:56:35 most people respect the need for security Feb 23 13:56:44 Corsac: it's not a web service Feb 23 13:56:49 RST38h: and a toolchain. Feb 23 13:56:53 yeah, an online service Feb 23 13:56:56 or connected service Feb 23 13:56:57 RST38h: I'm just saying that CPU emulation may be missing. Feb 23 13:57:08 RST38h: because it's onerous and I don't think we have planned for it. Feb 23 13:57:10 thiago: Which will kill those pesky python etc people Feb 23 13:57:12 Corsac: nope Feb 23 13:57:26 thiago: BTW, there is another problem Feb 23 13:57:29 RST38h: OBS is still there, though Feb 23 13:57:30 RST38h: how? if there's a reference MeeGo VM you can boot for x86 Feb 23 13:57:34 it's an offline service with an implementation glitch that means it needs a ping to run Feb 23 13:57:40 if OBS can cross-compile to ARM, you get a package after a few hours. Feb 23 13:57:44 Stskeeps: nah, but there is a chart Feb 23 13:57:50 thiago: locally or remotely Feb 23 13:57:57 RST38h: the arch chart .. don't get me started :P Feb 23 13:58:02 Hmm...Ok, so they will have to get an account on OBS Feb 23 13:58:15 lbt_: ok, if it's an “implementation glitch” it shouldn't be that hard to remove it in the end Feb 23 13:58:22 Corsac: indeed Feb 23 13:58:25 Corsac: it isn't, it's entirely possible to patch Feb 23 13:58:26 lbt_: and it won't pose problems to anyone? Feb 23 13:58:30 Corsac: patches accepted Feb 23 13:58:31 nope Feb 23 13:58:33 I guess the issue of OBS being an overloaded term confuses Feb 23 13:58:33 ok Feb 23 13:58:36 I missed that part :) Feb 23 13:58:39 it's all flying by so fast. How does OBS build for ARM? Crosscompiling or with qemu-arm? Feb 23 13:58:41 np Feb 23 13:58:46 thiago: Not sure if anyone thought of it, but there will be companies willing to run Maeblin on CPUs that are not Atom or OMAP3 Feb 23 13:58:51 jebba: qemu arm Feb 23 13:58:59 thiago: Usually, small Chinese companies producing low-cost gadgets Feb 23 13:58:59 jebba: *BUT* Feb 23 13:59:14 jebba: qemu-arm, user level emulated, plus what lbt is about to explain Feb 23 13:59:14 :P Feb 23 13:59:18 with an sbox-like twist for a *TINY* set of build tools Feb 23 13:59:34 RST38h: right, but they can do "make world" for themselves Feb 23 13:59:36 thiago: So, expect Snapdragon, iMX31/iMX51, tegra, and even some MIPS Feb 23 13:59:37 ya, cuz that will likely be a dog inside of a xen instance (e.g. amazon ec2= Feb 23 13:59:38 jebba: *WHICH USE THE SAME SOURCE AS THE NON-CROSS TOOLS* Feb 23 13:59:51 jebba: nope Feb 23 14:00:01 RST38h: anyway, those questions have not been answered. Feb 23 14:00:04 thiago: Has anyone made sure they *can* "make world" from the current code base and get a working system? Feb 23 14:00:06 ok good ;) Feb 23 14:00:11 because 80%+ of the build is double-cross-compiled Feb 23 14:00:15 RST38h: OBS will help that immensely, trust me :P Feb 23 14:00:18 RST38h: current? probably not. Future? We'll see. Feb 23 14:00:26 RST38h: I'm at least writing down the questions so that they get asked. Feb 23 14:00:37 I can't promise the answer will satisfy you, though. Feb 23 14:00:47 like no Gtk+ or CPU emulation in the official SDK. Feb 23 14:00:57 thiago: This of course depends on whether you want Maeblin to spread outside Nokia/Intel alliance Feb 23 14:01:15 Would be cool if moblin ran on Stallman's MIPS laptop ;-) Feb 23 14:01:17 thiago: Again, me, personally, is perfectly satisfied with OE-style toolchain Feb 23 14:01:19 we do, of course, but we want people to use Qt. Feb 23 14:01:23 $(CC) etc Feb 23 14:01:37 thiago: official sdk will basically be qt creator + MADDE like stuff to build for ARM? Feb 23 14:01:39 stallman's mips laptop is pretty dog slow.... Feb 23 14:01:40 thiago: Qt is just a layer of icing on top. They will use Qt. Feb 23 14:01:47 thiago: and maybe a reference MeeGo impl in a VM Feb 23 14:01:48 jebba: MIPS is dog slow. Feb 23 14:01:48 Stskeeps: unknown, but that's my hope. Feb 23 14:01:55 Stskeeps: lean and mean. Feb 23 14:01:55 jebba: There are reasons for that Feb 23 14:01:55 thiago: i hope so too, actually - focuses development Feb 23 14:02:06 scratchbox scared more developers tha it helped Feb 23 14:02:13 Stskeeps: sb2. Feb 23 14:02:21 RST38h: don't get me started on sb2.. Feb 23 14:02:21 :P Feb 23 14:02:33 anyway, we cross-compile Qt for MIPS and for PowerPC. So if you have a suitable toolchain, it should work. Feb 23 14:03:15 the problem is when people have bad toolchains, which they often do Feb 23 14:03:27 I was having a discussion in #qt-labs about an hour ago on the use of pkg-config Feb 23 14:03:39 the official way to use gstreamer, for example, is to detect it via pkg-config. Right? Feb 23 14:03:43 right Feb 23 14:03:51 thiago: that is the official way for everything Feb 23 14:04:04 ok, so we start with the problem that the latest official release of pkg-config (0.23) has a bug that makes cross-compilation impossible Feb 23 14:04:13 it simply doesn't work once you set PKG_CONFIG_SYSROOT_DIR Feb 23 14:04:38 there's a patch applied to pkg-config mainline, which many distros carry, but it's not in any release (the patch is only 2 years old) Feb 23 14:04:44 i assume you mean non-scratchbox like cross-compilation Feb 23 14:04:58 then the next problem is that many toolchains simply don't ship the .pc files Feb 23 14:04:59 Scarier thing is that Maemo documentation seems to imply that autoconf is the standard way Feb 23 14:05:01 yes, non-SB Feb 23 14:05:28 we have horror stories of trying to install SB in non-Debian-based distributions Feb 23 14:05:33 And autoconf has been rendered useless long time ago Feb 23 14:05:43 I run Mandriva, one of our developers uses Fedora and he spent a week trying it Feb 23 14:05:48 thiago: on the other hand, SB "patriotically" hates AMD Feb 23 14:05:56 and x86_64 Feb 23 14:06:02 until he gave in and ran Kubuntu inside a VM just so he could use SB Feb 23 14:06:14 I run fedora, I downloaded the ubuntu+sdk VM image without trying to install on fedora ;-) Feb 23 14:06:24 ShadowJK: you see my point Feb 23 14:06:32 so you're doing ARM emulation inside an emulated x86 Feb 23 14:06:48 meanwhile, I'm doing pure cross-compilation in a build farm... Feb 23 14:06:53 i ran it ok on fedora x86_64 fwiw.... Feb 23 14:07:00 * RST38h runs Ubuntu and fully expects the same kind of troubles running Maeblin SDK Feb 23 14:07:08 I run debian and installed scratchbox in a kvm i386 box :/ Feb 23 14:07:15 RST38h: hopefully that won't happen Feb 23 14:07:19 RST38h: main SDK already looks saner Feb 23 14:07:22 (for Qt apps.) Feb 23 14:07:30 Well it's kvm, first time I compiled anything, make -j 4, I was like "huh, that must've been complete failure when it completed that fast" Feb 23 14:07:35 (it wasn't) Feb 23 14:07:39 Stskeeps: if it is a toolchain only, should work like a charm Feb 23 14:07:48 * thiago loves make -j60 Feb 23 14:07:52 lol Feb 23 14:08:04 I need a faster CPU to be able to use the other two thirds of the compile farm, though Feb 23 14:08:26 the farm compiles faster than my machine can preprocess Feb 23 14:08:52 thiago: nice! the secret to timely qt release Feb 23 14:08:57 ? Feb 23 14:09:12 aboyer: Qt releases depend on build on machines that can't build on the farm Feb 23 14:09:25 like those pesky UltraSPARC (with 24 CPUs) and POWER5 (with one) Feb 23 14:09:36 oh, we also have two Itanium Feb 23 14:13:37 so who can walk me through building a source rpm using OBS, bearing in mind that the binary rpms i want to build against don't exist on any OBS server i have access to? Feb 23 14:17:09 I have an UltraSPARC IIi Feb 23 14:17:28 ali1234: i really hope there's plans for a open meego OBS, as development of the distro will be -painful- for outsiders otherwise Feb 23 14:17:29 Only one CPU tho. Feb 23 14:17:35 * ShadowJK has hypersparc and Ultrasparc II..e i think... Feb 23 14:17:36 Old Netra T1 Feb 23 14:17:48 * Corsac has an ultra 10 Feb 23 14:17:58 * ShadowJK has a netra too :) Feb 23 14:18:07 and a Blade 105 iirc Feb 23 14:18:13 I like netras. Nice and small, don't use too much power Feb 23 14:18:36 Yes well, compare it with a sheevaplug.. Feb 23 14:18:41 In fact the irc client I'm using right now is running on my netra Feb 23 14:18:52 ali1234: if you miss some rpm to build against and don't have the sources to rebuild them, it might be painful :) Feb 23 14:19:04 * RST38h guesses nobody has an IPX or a SPARC4 nowadays Feb 23 14:19:07 Corsac: i have the rpms, they're just not in an OBS server Feb 23 14:19:14 could try getting the source upstream if possible Feb 23 14:19:18 i'm hoping someone can tell me how i put them in one Feb 23 14:19:38 ali1234: I'd like to give some help but don't have much time, thus my asking about the script which would do the src.rpm list, download them and feed them to mock Feb 23 14:20:08 I've never used rpms, I mainly use debian or solaris Feb 23 14:20:15 Corsac: for i in *; do mock rebuild $; done Feb 23 14:20:18 ali1234: i think it's worth waiting a bit for real meego release to be out and then play by ear on some experiments we'll also be doing Feb 23 14:20:57 Stskeeps: so while i'm waiting, i want to learn how to set up an OBS instance, and put my own distro into it Feb 23 14:21:23 ali1234: right - first off, the main OBS part can be in a VM but the workers has to be on bare metal Feb 23 14:21:55 got an available server that can churn as a worker? Feb 23 14:21:59 ali1234: yeah, that miss the download part, though I guess a wget --mirror --no-parent should work Feb 23 14:22:04 Stskeeps: just my desktop PC running ubuntu Feb 23 14:22:32 Stskeeps: i notice obs-worker is available in the suse ubutu repos Feb 23 14:22:44 it is? Feb 23 14:22:50 yeah. but not obs-server Feb 23 14:23:11 obs-server doesn't matter, but if you can run obs-worker on ubuntu it would be nice Feb 23 14:23:18 obs-server can be in a vm for what matters Feb 23 14:23:46 Corsac: I've a script that does that Feb 23 14:24:10 Corsac: yeah i used wget Feb 23 14:24:14 it gets the index.html from the repo, and parses it for the links, then pulls down the links via wget Feb 23 14:24:15 slaine_: available somewhere? Feb 23 14:24:21 oh Feb 23 14:24:24 is there an option so tar doesn't cross filesystem lines btw? Feb 23 14:24:32 there is, but i forget what it is Feb 23 14:24:40 yeah then wget --mirror --no-directories --no-parent should work, though a bit less smart Feb 23 14:24:41 But that's no the problem Feb 23 14:24:48 Stskeeps: yeah man page - search for "traverse" Feb 23 14:24:52 not the problem Feb 23 14:25:05 --one-file-system Feb 23 14:25:32 ah, there Feb 23 14:25:55 i'm going to make a 'backup my entire n900' system, so Feb 23 14:26:00 whois thiago Feb 23 14:26:20 ali1234: if you change the mockbuild users path to exclude the /sbin and /usr/sbin, your tar rpm failure won't happen Feb 23 14:26:48 slaine_: yeah but it doesn't solve the dependency ordering problem, or any of the other build errors Feb 23 14:27:19 got an example ? Feb 23 14:27:25 loads :) Feb 23 14:27:28 hang on Feb 23 14:29:29 ali1234: I think we need to replicate this, for the mock config, http://moblin.org/sites/all/files/moblin_0.txt Feb 23 14:29:40 quite possibly Feb 23 14:29:48 build config is a lot more complicated than mock config though Feb 23 14:29:51 quite likely Feb 23 14:30:00 but it's basically just describing the chroot, yeah? Feb 23 14:30:05 yeah Feb 23 14:30:10 and how to manage it Feb 23 14:30:21 ah... mock doesn't do so much management Feb 23 14:30:24 thiago: can you use scratchbox normally on mandriva? Feb 23 14:30:28 i think we are better off using build tbh Feb 23 14:30:33 basically what's needed is something like apt-build or portage? Feb 23 14:30:43 but how to get build to work with source rpms is the next question Feb 23 14:30:53 slaine_: it does work with source rpms Feb 23 14:31:02 but you have to give it binary rpms to build the chroot out of Feb 23 14:31:07 that it what the --repo command is for Feb 23 14:31:12 that's the repo part right / Feb 23 14:31:18 Does that have to be local ? Feb 23 14:31:21 in this sense it is identical to mock Feb 23 14:31:40 slaine_: dunno, does it matter? mock uses yum to build the chroot so it can fetch and cache them Feb 23 14:32:03 well, I've tried using build over lunch there but made no progress Feb 23 14:32:06 villemv: I don't think so. Feb 23 14:32:35 ok, too bad Feb 23 14:32:48 villemv: which is why I built my own toolchain. Feb 23 14:33:03 and upgraded gcc to 4.4 Feb 23 14:33:25 slaine_: all my failing logs: http://al.robotfuzz.com/~al/fail/ Feb 23 14:33:44 thiago: armel binaries built with gcc4.4 work fine I assume? Feb 23 14:33:52 seems quite a few are the info/dir thing Feb 23 14:35:45 well, the user path will sove that Feb 23 14:35:46 villemv: yeus Feb 23 14:35:47 solve Feb 23 14:36:07 I had one issue that gcc 4.4 outputs one instruction that binutils that comes with the toolchain can't use Feb 23 14:37:44 How does one point build to a src rpm then ? Feb 23 14:38:24 build --repo /path/to/repo/mirror --target i586 Feb 23 14:38:28 i assume anyway Feb 23 14:38:31 nope Feb 23 14:38:34 hmm Feb 23 14:38:59 Oh, I take that back Feb 23 14:39:05 I thought it used the current dir Feb 23 14:42:47 ali1234: I think the binary rpms need to be local after all Feb 23 14:42:55 yeah, almost certainly Feb 23 14:43:06 lame, would have thougt it'd use yum to get them Feb 23 14:43:16 it's ot so bad Feb 23 14:43:22 *not Feb 23 14:50:04 I'll kick off a download Feb 23 14:56:15 same. downloading opensuse 11.2 DVD too so i can set up a obs-server Feb 23 14:58:20 It'll probably be tomorrow before I can get it working fully Feb 23 14:58:46 getting 1mbyte/second from moblin.org here :) Feb 23 14:58:54 lucky you Feb 23 14:59:00 i'll run out of internet allowance at this rate Feb 23 14:59:01 I'm pulling from the kernel mirrors Feb 23 14:59:31 that has slowed some since i started the suse torrent Feb 23 14:59:34 we've a 4mbit leased line so it'll take a while Feb 23 15:37:32 Ewww, qt-creator is slow Feb 23 15:40:09 define slow Feb 23 15:41:49 the UI is pretty laggy on my netbook Feb 23 15:42:04 is it still indexing your code? Feb 23 15:42:15 I don't have any code Feb 23 15:42:22 fresh install on a netbook Feb 23 15:42:26 slaine_: Netbooks and IDEs don't really mix, IME Feb 23 15:42:56 from a usability standpoint, i'd agree. But I'd be worried from a performance POV Feb 23 15:43:13 are there snapshots of the latest devel of meego available for the X86 platform? Feb 23 15:43:29 * tybollt puts on asbestos pans Feb 23 15:43:31 pants Feb 23 15:43:44 slaine_, problem with Tegra is that it's only advantage is the HD. Feb 23 15:44:01 Besides, can you even get drivers for it for Linux? Feb 23 15:44:24 GeneralAntilles: I'd imagine only if you sign some nvidia NDA :) Feb 23 15:44:24 If you're Nokia you could probably get non-redistributable binary drivers.. Feb 23 15:44:44 GeneralAntilles: And HD is exactly why I'm interested in it Feb 23 15:44:46 If you're incorporated, and in the US, you can buy Tegra development boards. Feb 23 15:45:01 they seem to come with a linux support package Feb 23 15:45:06 slaine_, too bad about the rest of it, though. Feb 23 15:45:24 ShadowJK: Yeah, that's where my questions earlier where directed, as in, what to do if you're in europe Feb 23 15:45:27 GeneralAntilles: lol Feb 23 15:45:33 It looks good to me to be honest Feb 23 15:45:38 But what do I know Feb 23 15:46:01 slaine_, I dunno, send briefcase of cash to GeneralAntilles, have him setup a company to buy the board and ship it to you? Feb 23 15:46:04 Well, hardly any open source support, old one is ARM11 Feb 23 15:46:41 TI is awesome, anyone can buy beagleboard anywhere in the world :-) Feb 23 15:46:42 Can the 720MHz OMAP3530 handle 1080p? Feb 23 15:46:58 I'm almost certain it should be able to do at least 720p with NEON. Feb 23 15:47:18 well it does mpeg4 asp at 720p with neon.. probably Feb 23 15:47:38 The DSP's faster too Feb 23 15:47:56 The open DSP codecs are fast, the closed DSP codecs faster Feb 23 15:47:59 ShadowJK: Yeah, but are there ODM's out there that would sell me 300 boxes based on a beagleboard production unit, that's the question Feb 23 15:48:20 slaine_, perhaps talk to ds3? Feb 23 15:48:20 hm, yeah :) Feb 23 15:48:31 slaine_, jkridner on #beagle may be another good option (TI guy). Feb 23 15:48:31 that a company or a user ? Feb 23 15:48:38 slaine_, Freenode user. Feb 23 15:48:59 slaine_, ds3's stuff: http://www.hy-research.com/beagle_mid.html Feb 23 15:49:11 Thanks Feb 23 15:49:27 I wonder who pandora uses Feb 23 15:51:06 GeneralAntilles, as for neon, MPlayer on N900 Feb 23 15:51:37 ShadowJK, better than it used to be? Feb 23 15:51:45 Actually, the biggest problem was that it wasn't optified. :P Feb 23 15:51:52 It's optified now Feb 23 15:53:25 And it's from december or so.. there might be maybe 10% speedup on h264 since then overall... and ffmpeg's aac decoder gained some major speed boosts.. Feb 23 15:53:26 Cool Feb 23 15:54:14 ffmpeg's guru went on a h264 micro-optimization spree.. Feb 23 15:54:32 I haven't benchmarked it though, so 10% is just purely guessing Feb 23 15:54:52 lots of 0.5% speedup in special case X Feb 23 15:55:09 might add up to some real boost eventually ;) Feb 23 15:56:13 Prolly not Feb 23 15:56:25 Depends on the architecture too Feb 23 15:56:29 Anyway, this "720p" and "1080p" buzzwords are so useless. People assume "h264 high profile at 60 fps zomg", when in reality it might be ASP @ 24fps Feb 23 15:56:42 Neon on ARM, SSSSSSSSEx on Atom Feb 23 15:57:21 From what I've seen of the work done the last months it's been restrucuring the higher level C code Feb 23 15:58:14 last http 10 Feb 23 15:58:29 My Atom 330 can handle about 720p h264 main profile.. Feb 23 15:59:22 1080p h264 main would work with "simple" animated content that doesn't pan around much :D Feb 23 16:00:45 I thought I had mplayer on N900, but it was KMplayer Feb 23 16:00:56 just downloaded mplayer and it's much smoother Feb 23 16:01:17 I should try push maemo's MPlayer maintainer to include a sensible default mplayer.conf too :) Feb 23 16:01:28 -ao pulse -vo xv:ck-method=auto Feb 23 16:01:50 * GeneralAntilles chuckles at http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-February/000052.html Feb 23 16:01:52 didn't try audio, at work. did -ao null -fs Feb 23 16:02:01 ah Feb 23 16:02:43 People criticize mplayer for being gigantic (it's, what, a 20 meg executable?), but still it manages to cause less swapout activity than N900's built-in media player :-) Feb 23 16:03:20 I use mplayer for all my video needs on my linux boxes Feb 23 16:27:31 ali1234: up to samba at the moment Feb 23 16:27:40 I'll check it tomorrow Feb 23 16:38:27 hmm Feb 23 16:38:34 how does this thing work Feb 23 16:38:45 i only wanted to ask some questions Feb 23 16:38:50 well, feel free to ask Feb 23 16:39:05 haha Feb 23 16:39:08 thanks Feb 23 16:39:12 a real classic Feb 23 16:39:18 but note that we usually only have 8ball responses Feb 23 16:39:24 and please don`t hit me Feb 23 16:39:34 :-) Feb 23 16:39:35 salemsnake: think of this as a really big icq/msn/y!/whatever group chat :) Feb 23 16:39:50 hmm Feb 23 16:39:56 on meego right Feb 23 16:39:57 ? Feb 23 16:40:04 rep Feb 23 16:40:09 yep Feb 23 16:40:11 Yes, a group chat with a topic, in this case meego :) Feb 23 16:40:17 ah ok Feb 23 16:40:23 thanks Feb 23 16:40:24 so Feb 23 16:40:31 the question Feb 23 16:40:40 is meego going to be on n900 Feb 23 16:40:57 the future is uncertain Feb 23 16:41:04 that should be a FAQ Feb 23 16:41:08 ;) Feb 23 16:41:19 haha Feb 23 16:41:20 yes Feb 23 16:41:25 Yes, the faq should be subtitled "the future is uncertain" Feb 23 16:41:33 but it wasant in the faq at the meego site Feb 23 16:41:40 ha Feb 23 16:41:47 right. it gets asked enough that it should be Feb 23 16:41:58 yes it should Feb 23 16:42:07 salemsnake, the short answer is, you probably shouldn't expect to see a device running meego for some time Feb 23 16:42:16 you mean a nokia device? Feb 23 16:42:21 any device Feb 23 16:42:22 true true Feb 23 16:42:22 right Feb 23 16:42:30 yes nokia Feb 23 16:42:40 but if things go right, there will be an explosion of devices at some point Feb 23 16:42:42 RST38h: what about that LG moblin^Wmeego phone? Feb 23 16:42:53 there *could* be a device running meego before nokia, but who knows if it'll be this year Feb 23 16:42:53 RST38h: not sure “explosion” is the right term Feb 23 16:42:55 or is it? Feb 23 16:42:55 Corsac: Afaik it is not exactly meego Feb 23 16:43:10 Corsac: It is moblin with some pieces from elsewhere Feb 23 16:43:38 so Feb 23 16:43:39 yeah, the same thing as maemo6 Feb 23 16:43:49 hmm Feb 23 16:43:55 rebranded as meego but still largely the old one Feb 23 16:44:02 isn`t maemo 6 and meego the same thing? Feb 23 16:44:11 Corsac: Using Moorestown SoC Feb 23 16:44:16 maemo6 will be *branded* as meego Feb 23 16:44:32 that's all we know Feb 23 16:44:50 where's that post on the n900 and meego by Stskeeps Feb 23 16:46:11 http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=45213 Feb 23 16:46:27 * tripzero bookmarks Feb 23 16:46:39 google: maemo stskeeps :p Feb 23 16:48:26 someone knows how to disable clutter from mutter?? I set clutter_disable key to TRUE, but it changes nothing, thanx for help :) Feb 23 16:48:54 you need a putter to disable clutter from mutter Feb 23 16:48:55 megabast, just turn of compositing? Feb 23 16:48:59 megabast: ehhh Feb 23 16:49:07 megabast : what is the point? Feb 23 16:49:15 mutter without clutter is like a car without wheels Feb 23 16:49:41 it's just "m" at that point Feb 23 16:49:43 mutter without clutter is like metacity, but I want to see moblin without clutter effects Feb 23 16:49:52 it s just to test it Feb 23 16:51:16 well my question has been answered thanks tripzero and twouters :-) Feb 23 16:51:51 * RST38h would also like to see moblin without clutter effects and reliance on powervr Feb 23 16:52:13 I love people who make after-the-fact web tooling change suggestions with "just because" reasoning. Feb 23 16:52:27 moinmoin? Feb 23 16:52:33 Yeah Feb 23 16:52:44 man, that would suck. viva mediawiki.... Feb 23 16:53:09 i was almost tempted to post a followup to that...... Feb 23 16:53:21 jebba, I just fired one off. Feb 23 16:53:26 yes, moinmoin over the crazy i18n in moinmoin Feb 23 16:55:01 plus we can just copy & paste a bit from the old wiki. Probably not as much as we'd like though...since the major ground shift from deb Feb 23 16:55:10 Does anybody else find that the links on mobile sites are usually harder to hit than regular ones? http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-February/000055.html Feb 23 16:55:22 Considering most of them target QVGA or worse. . . . Feb 23 16:55:51 GeneralAntilles: I don't use mobile sites, the regular ones are generally much nicer Feb 23 16:55:58 full ack Feb 23 16:56:02 benbrown, there's no point on Maemo. Feb 23 16:56:09 indeed Feb 23 16:57:20 benbrown, oh, by the way, iPhone 3GS uses a Samsung SoC. Feb 23 16:58:32 ahh right. Same chips tho right? Feb 23 16:58:39 No Feb 23 16:58:44 Same ARM core (Cortex A8) Feb 23 16:58:50 But with different parts in the SoC Feb 23 16:58:55 from different manufacturers. Feb 23 16:58:57 same PowerVR? Feb 23 16:59:05 Similar, not the same Feb 23 16:59:13 and the iPhone 3GS doesn't have it on the SoC. Feb 23 16:59:16 BTW, I may have a chance to program for that Samsung SoC soon Feb 23 16:59:56 Android, too =( Feb 23 17:00:23 RST38h: Well... for that you can just use Qt ;) Feb 23 17:02:13 leinir: Not really. But I guess I will have to find whatever keyhole they left for native apps =( Feb 23 17:02:55 i take it you saw that Android Lighthouse thing :) Feb 23 17:06:26 http://code.google.com/p/android-lighthouse/ <-- if you have not :) Feb 23 17:07:59 so no ideas to launch moblin without clutter effects? Feb 23 17:08:27 what does that mean? Feb 23 17:08:35 if you don't use the launch bar... what do you have??? Feb 23 17:08:45 megabast, moblin without clutter isn't much Feb 23 17:08:55 you may as well not even start x Feb 23 17:09:01 it 's just to see what it displays Feb 23 17:09:11 I think you have the launch bar Feb 23 17:09:41 without clutter there is no launch bar Feb 23 17:09:45 and thus, nothing else Feb 23 17:09:46 You have a key into mutter to disable clutter, but seems don't work Feb 23 17:10:31 in README of mutter-moblin, this key is mentionned Feb 23 17:10:40 so that means you could try Feb 23 17:11:11 metacity --replace Feb 23 17:11:19 that's how you run mutter without clutter Feb 23 17:11:29 clutter_disabled: if set to true, disables the clutter compositor Feb 23 17:11:31 falling back to the xrender compositor. Feb 23 17:12:04 tripzero: I agree, but I want to use mutter-moblin Feb 23 17:12:24 why? Feb 23 17:12:54 mutter without clutter would just be metacity. Feb 23 17:13:09 I need to create an interface like moblin, so I need to see which components I can remove from moblin Feb 23 17:13:25 to start from minimize interface Feb 23 17:13:51 yum remove clutter Feb 23 17:13:59 that should pull out all the interface Feb 23 17:14:15 why not Feb 23 17:15:22 that will delete also moblin packages Feb 23 17:15:33 nevermind, I suppose it's not possible Feb 23 17:15:56 thanks for your answers guys Feb 23 17:36:45 anyone know offhand a link to the "why we are just bootstrapping and not being a downstream distro" question? Feb 23 17:37:34 jebba: sure... Feb 23 17:37:47 well, part is that for a proper mobile distro, you need to molest the system a fair bit Feb 23 17:37:47 jebba: http://meego.com/about/faq Feb 23 17:37:53 Is MeeGo based on another distribution (like Fedora or Debian)? Feb 23 17:37:53 No. Meego is its own independent distribution, run as an open source project. In that sense you can consider MeeGo an upstream distribution, that itself pulls from the upstream of the various open source projects it is based on. Feb 23 17:38:01 to be able to do things we want to do we end up building the basic OS from scratch Feb 23 17:38:12 and that's about mobile/client/etc Feb 23 17:38:17 or jebba http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging --> upstream Feb 23 17:38:25 ya, i was hoping for link/info to pass on to fedora-arm list Feb 23 17:38:27 that's likely what you're looking for Feb 23 17:38:44 at least on the moblin side we've been there done that (Moblin 1 on ubuntu) and learned the hard way, and moblin 2.x is its own upstream distro Feb 23 17:39:03 and because of that we could do the things we wanted to do Feb 23 17:39:41 jebba: I know both Fedora and Debian would like us to be their downstream, but it just does not work that way Feb 23 17:39:44 been there done that Feb 23 17:40:07 too limiting ? Feb 23 17:40:20 or too time consuming to work with what u get instead of doing it all by urself? Feb 23 17:41:11 arjan, ya i'm not saying it should be either way, i was just trying to feed signal to fedora-arm list ;) Feb 23 17:41:46 Woohoo, qgil's got an Intel equivalent. Feb 23 17:42:04 Votan: both Feb 23 17:42:13 Votan: it's a case of different objectives leading to different tradeoffs Feb 23 17:42:26 tradeoffs we don't want to make on smaller devices Feb 23 17:42:26 i started a meego thread on fedora-arm list if anyone wants to chime in: http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/arm/2010-February/000459.html Feb 23 17:42:36 hmm why? Feb 23 17:42:42 what does meego have to do with fedora-arm ?? Feb 23 17:42:50 Jaffa, indeed? Feb 23 17:43:01 arjan meego is bootstraping itself with fedora 12 arm Feb 23 17:43:18 GeneralAntilles: http://fastwonderblog.com/ - Dawn Foster, "Introduction" thread on meego-community Feb 23 17:43:39 Jaffa, cool. Feb 23 17:44:54 arjan, well, per this link at least, that's what it says: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM_Support Feb 23 17:45:30 jebba: we start with their compiler binary since you need to start with SOME compiler Feb 23 17:45:59 that does not mean we have anything f12 left once our own compiler is built with their binary Feb 23 17:46:03 ya, again, i'm not saying up or down to anything. You just asked what they have to do with each other. Feb 23 17:46:09 basically nothing Feb 23 17:46:15 we needed A compiler to bootstrap compiling Feb 23 17:46:19 ya, except that it's bootstrapping from that. Feb 23 17:46:41 so that's what they have to do with each other ;) Feb 23 17:46:44 we could have picked any other arm build just the same Feb 23 17:46:55 uh huh. But F12 arm was chosen. Feb 23 17:47:18 i just thought the fedora-arm folks would find it interesting. Feb 23 17:48:13 you make it sound like it's some big deal Feb 23 17:48:18 well, once the rpm stuff was chosen, it makes sense to bootstrap from a rpm distro, I guess Feb 23 17:48:40 bootstrap means "get rid of the binaries you borrowed as soon as you can" Feb 23 17:48:59 so you're basically telling fedora "we're borrowing your binaries for one box, just to ditch them as fast as we can" :) Feb 23 17:50:42 well, the fedora ARM port is still relatively little used Feb 23 17:50:48 so thats how meego will be an independent distro Feb 23 17:51:01 and we're using their compiler to .. build our compiler once and then ditch it ? Feb 23 17:51:16 so I guess they may still find it rewarding that someone happens to use fedora-arm for something useful Feb 23 17:51:25 arjan ok ok ok. I'm sorry i let them know. Sheez. Feb 23 17:51:26 muep: hahahaha Feb 23 17:51:44 jebba: it's just that it feels like you're rubbing in that we're not using them Feb 23 17:51:55 rubbing it in how? wtf? Feb 23 17:52:19 rubbing it in to them or you or meego or what? i'm totally lost here. I didn't think this would be controversial at all.... Feb 23 17:53:23 "hey fedora folks, meego is bootstraping with you. here's links. ciao". http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/arm/2010-February/000459.html Feb 23 17:53:55 mailing list linebreak fail Feb 23 17:55:24 i'm gonna hang out in #openbsd where it's a bit more friendly..... Feb 23 17:55:46 jebba: don't sweat it too much Feb 23 17:56:03 jebba: we've had to deal with a whole week of "omg you're ditching debian" "omg you're ditching fedora" last week Feb 23 17:56:31 I'm happy I was so sick I didn't pay attention to IRC at all Feb 23 17:56:40 relationships with other distros is a bit sensitive; it seems they would like to think of either moblin/maemo/meego as their "they should just use us" Feb 23 17:56:44 Myrtti, aw, but you missed all the fun. Feb 23 17:56:55 GeneralAntilles: I had fun in the loo. Feb 23 17:56:58 :-< Feb 23 17:56:59 uh huh. FWIW i've done fedora (Red Hat, Inc.) packaging for a decade or so and learned debian packaging (better) for maemo, so i'm totally cool with whatever way it goes. Feb 23 17:57:03 Myrtti, :( Feb 23 17:57:26 jebba: my point is that things are a bit sensitive at the point; Feb 23 17:57:32 hey arjan Feb 23 17:57:35 I was having a fever on Monday and I remember only bits and pieces Feb 23 17:57:36 i guess so! Feb 23 17:58:06 GeneralAntilles: Fancy moving the stuff from the top of "Who's who" into one of the those "main page" summaries? Feb 23 17:58:46 Jaffa, "'main page' summaries"? Feb 23 18:01:12 Oh, I get it. Feb 23 18:01:57 Seriously? Feb 23 18:02:06 It wants me to confirm my email address for a 3rd time/ Feb 23 18:02:12 Hello Feb 23 18:02:15 Where is bugs.meego.com. . . . Feb 23 18:02:34 Jaffa, not up for playing "Get the wiki SSO to play nice" at the moment, sorry. :P Feb 23 18:03:43 GeneralAntilles: your not playing nice with wiki? Feb 23 18:03:58 Reverse it. Feb 23 18:04:07 * Stskeeps reads the backlog Feb 23 18:04:32 * Corsac reads Stskeeps Feb 23 18:08:06 DawnFoster: +1 for already hanging out in here, good way to engage with the community Feb 23 18:08:44 Stskeeps >> /var/logs/#meego Feb 23 18:08:47 DawnFoster, might want to register with NickServ. Feb 23 18:09:00 stskeeps: Thanks! I've been lurking a bit & trying to learn what I can before I "officially" start on monday Feb 23 18:09:06 DawnFoster: welcome to the channel Feb 23 18:09:24 is he shiny? (a meego dev) Feb 23 18:09:48 DawnFoster, may be worth browsing the MeeGo-related stuff here: http://talk.maemo.org/forumdisplay.php?f=16 Feb 23 18:10:03 there is also 8 days of rpm vs deb Feb 23 18:10:06 er i mean chatlogs Feb 23 18:10:16 CosmoHill: yes, I have tried very hard to forget those :P Feb 23 18:10:16 DawnFoster: brilliant to see more of "us" around! Feb 23 18:10:23 DawnFoster: welcome to the mad house Feb 23 18:10:35 * GeneralAntilles cackles. Feb 23 18:10:44 * CosmoHill is learning who is shiney / meego dev Feb 23 18:12:20 CosmoHill, track the Who's Who wiki page. ;) Feb 23 18:12:25 http://fastwonderblog.com/ fyi DawnFoster's blog Feb 23 18:12:44 at least this time we have a list and affiliation with people.. i mean, it took me half a year before i knew who to poke and when i had to poke them Feb 23 18:12:48 i hang out on two projects Feb 23 18:12:54 one of them i see the devs all the time Feb 23 18:13:24 the other one they are mystical creatures seen once in a bluemoon Feb 23 18:14:13 Stskeeps, hey, if just anybody can figure out who's who then we'll have rabble all over everything. ;) Feb 23 18:14:22 we just had a blue moon a few weeks back Feb 23 18:14:36 X-D Feb 23 18:16:24 i think I'm been evaluated by two of them :/ Feb 23 18:18:23 jebba: hmm - everything you said looked fine to me :) Feb 23 18:18:48 I think there's a bit of tension around still... Feb 23 18:18:58 thx. I took a redeye flight last night cross hemispheres and am way spacey, so i wasn't quite sure ;) Feb 23 18:19:03 at least it's sortof settled over at t.m.o by now Feb 23 18:19:35 jebba: there are *massive* issues to resolve due to the "no upstream" stance though Feb 23 18:19:58 I'm waiting until we get a bit more visibility of code and repos Feb 23 18:20:18 so we can start submitting bugs for missing packages/libraries Feb 23 18:20:27 and understand how we deal with that Feb 23 18:20:36 on the other hands Feb 23 18:20:38 i hope it means that things track upstream extra fast, not extra slow in this case (e.g. when in doubt just track upstream....) Feb 23 18:20:49 eg it may be interesting to 'upstream' things at the 'all perl' level though Feb 23 18:20:53 engineers are traditionally lazy - naming might be similar to the distro they've been affected by Feb 23 18:20:55 “dpkg, libapt, apt-get, dpkg-buildpackage are missing” Feb 23 18:20:57 * Corsac runs Feb 23 18:21:06 * lbt grins Feb 23 18:21:31 * CosmoHill giggles Feb 23 18:21:39 you can have apt-get on an .rpm based system install .rpms (e.g. not alien stuff, there's apt-get for RPM) Feb 23 18:21:53 alien is actually kinda cool Feb 23 18:22:25 jebba: you mean apt-rpm? Feb 23 18:22:39 i mean, i was shocked to find out it actually adjusted Depends: for me Feb 23 18:24:36 * CosmoHill plays with his earring Feb 23 18:30:09 CosmoHill, ya apt-rpm (apt4rpm?). On Fedora 12, for example: `yum -y install apt && apt-get update && apt-get install foo` For years I happily used apt-get on fedora-based systems. Feb 23 18:30:32 hmm Feb 23 18:30:34 i actually think specs look simpler to work with, heh Feb 23 18:31:38 Stskeeps: oh ya, i really prefer specs actually. Multiple binary sources much easier. I was *shocked* when I had to convert .pngs into .xpms just to add an icon to the package (part of that being due to maemo using legacy debian build tools like debhelper5) Feb 23 18:32:31 jebba: ooo Feb 23 18:32:34 [sticking his head from the hole] XPMs? Feora still uses XPMs? Feb 23 18:32:41 i like that you can easily make multiple packages from one spec file Feb 23 18:32:42 RST38h: no, for .debs Feb 23 18:33:50 bbl Feb 23 18:34:36 jebba: to continue down the technical road, f12 arm is interesting cos it's armv5te Feb 23 18:34:43 Like in foo.spec you can just add a line Source: foo-1.2.3.tar.gz for the main tarball. Then if you want to add something like a little icon for .desktop or somesuch, you just do Source1: foo.png and it drags that in so you can copy it where .desktop will see it. In debhelper5 (afaict), there was no way to include an extra .png in the .diff, since it was binary. (Disclaimer: i'm somewhat noob on building .deb) Feb 23 18:34:47 lbt: btw we have tools that notify people when upstream made a new release Feb 23 18:35:01 which is quite nice Feb 23 18:35:13 (and we're working on the flow to make things easier to just upgrade to the new release) Feb 23 18:35:27 something like debian/watch and uscan? :) Feb 23 18:35:30 no wait Feb 23 18:35:36 arjan: I think the problem I see is that meego will have to duplicate all the work done elsewhere Feb 23 18:35:48 and that seems suboptimal Feb 23 18:35:51 Not all, just part of it Feb 23 18:36:07 lbt: well, naming is a big issue, since sonames are common Feb 23 18:36:09 all the packaging/QA work Feb 23 18:36:19 yep, like naming Feb 23 18:36:52 lbt: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group Feb 23 18:36:52 I'm real interested in working with other distros to take advantage of the QA/integration done "out there" Feb 23 18:37:27 well, things don't have to start from absolute scratch though. I imagine lots will be seeded from fedora .specs (or maybe suse .specs??). The one drawback is that suse/fedora/mandrake .spec files use lots of different macros. It's not always that easy to just grab a mandrake .spec and build it for fedora, for example. Feb 23 18:37:31 lbt: having worked for linux distros for... 8 years now I suppose.... I think you're overestimating that QA and integration part ;) Feb 23 18:37:39 on now Stskeeps Feb 23 18:37:46 arjan: heh Feb 23 18:37:54 jebba: we have tools to autopackage basically "good behaving" upstream stuff Feb 23 18:37:57 I'll be happy when I see CPAN on meego Feb 23 18:37:59 arjan: will the macros be more fedoraish or mandrakeish or ??? Feb 23 18:38:14 ya, but there are so many "bad behaving" upstreams... ;) Feb 23 18:38:18 lbt: I am 100% in favor of having a good CPAN->meego tool flow, so that the actual packaging is a noop for that Feb 23 18:38:31 dito Feb 23 18:38:36 OK - that is the kind of richness I want to have available to devs Feb 23 18:38:52 lbt: I rather spend time on a tool that makes that easy rather than spending time on 5000 little perl CPANs each Feb 23 18:38:55 and having statements that support that level of commitment is good Feb 23 18:39:03 arjan: yes Feb 23 18:39:09 debian has a good one Feb 23 18:39:12 e.g. "make %{?_smp_mflags}" on fedora versus "make -j{somefoo i dont remember" on suse, etc. Feb 23 18:39:21 and I'm sure the logic can be analysed and re-used Feb 23 18:39:24 (not diminishing the value of those 5000 litte CPANs... but I do diminish the value of packaging each by hand) Feb 23 18:39:36 yeah, there's the dh-make-perl or something Feb 23 18:39:42 nod Feb 23 18:39:43 jebba: if you end up caring on that level you're one level too deep in the general case ;-) Feb 23 18:39:53 I also like the dh-* concept Feb 23 18:40:15 and feel that, design wise, that would be worth looking very closely at Feb 23 18:40:15 and dh plugins are a nice addition Feb 23 18:41:06 arjan, well, basically mandrake/fedora/suse all have different macros that they use in the .specs. MeeGo is going to have to go with one of them or start a new set of macros. Probably easiest to be mostly compatible with one of them so you can drag in all their .specs just to hit the ground running. You can't take a mandrake .spec and have it "just work" in fedora. Feb 23 18:41:32 jebba: moblin has its own set Feb 23 18:41:36 jebba: yes, that's another kind of decision I'd like to see Feb 23 18:41:48 but in general, it's all very minimal Feb 23 18:41:48 arjan: so we at least need some support to convert them Feb 23 18:42:06 you don't notice such macros if you use the autopackaging tools btw Feb 23 18:42:16 also, generally, once you use too many macros you're doing it wrong Feb 23 18:42:30 arjan, uh, every fedora package uses macros. Feb 23 18:42:43 and mandrake, and suse. Feb 23 18:42:51 jebba: there is a basic set that you use, sure. Feb 23 18:42:56 not exactly sure reinventing packaging good practices is really that useful though Feb 23 18:42:58 and they are incompatible. Feb 23 18:43:09 jebba: the common ones tend to not be in general Feb 23 18:43:18 with rpm 4.8 they standardized a lot of this stuff again Feb 23 18:43:25 except for, like, say "make"...as in my example above. Feb 23 18:43:46 ok, good to hear it's getting standardized. I haven't packaged much for fedoraish for a year or so. Feb 23 18:45:18 pkg_add! Feb 23 18:45:23 * RST38h hides Feb 23 18:46:11 * CosmoHill puts a lampshade on RST38h Feb 23 19:03:25 Using lynx.spec as a random example. Fedora : "%configure --libdir=/etc ..." SUSE: "./configure". Fedora: "make %{?_smp_mflags}" SUSE: "make" (I've seen weirder things they do too, iirc). Fedora: "%makeinstall mandir=$RPM_BUILD_ROOT%{_mandir}/man1 libdir=$RPM_BUILD_ROOT/etc" SUSE: "make DESTDIR=$RPM_BUILD_ROOT install" Fedora (under %files): "%{_bindir}/lynx" SUSE: "/usr/bin/lynx" Fedora: "%config %{_sysconfd Feb 23 19:04:01 and mandriva is different and PLD is different, etc. Feb 23 19:09:29 jebba: could you add moblin too as an example? Feb 23 19:09:47 also, you got cut off at fedora Feb 23 19:11:02 just pondering which one is closest Feb 23 19:12:48 Stskeeps: this is clearer: http://pastebin.ca/1807161 I'll see if i can find a moblin spec Feb 23 19:13:21 it's also about finding out what litterature traditionally points to Feb 23 19:13:36 if you can find a src.rpm i can unpack them on my mac Feb 23 19:15:57 ya, i'm grabbing bzip2.src.rpm nowp Feb 23 19:16:07 ah bzip2 Feb 23 19:16:11 that doesn't have a make install Feb 23 19:16:17 at least i don't think so Feb 23 19:17:04 Stskeeps: bzip2 in moblin trunk ( http://repo.moblin.org/releases/trunk/repo/source/ ) is based on Fedora's spec. Feb 23 19:17:26 got a diff? Feb 23 19:17:41 #specfile originally created for Fedora, modified for Moblin Linux Feb 23 19:17:45 (in fact, at the top it even says "#specfile originally created for Fedora, modified for Moblin Linux") Feb 23 19:17:55 right Feb 23 19:18:09 if it's possible to find more similarities, it would be a good argument as having something to align towards Feb 23 19:18:21 not marry, not compatible, but maybe src compat Feb 23 19:18:22 * CosmoHill looks at the changelog Feb 23 19:18:52 hmm, nothing there Feb 23 19:19:06 Stskeeps: if you want I'll download the fedora one and pastebin a diff Feb 23 19:19:37 Stskeeps: the differences are quite minimal. Diff and the .specs here: http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/SPECS/ Feb 23 19:20:04 so, afaict, it's basically fedora base. But not that fedora has anything to do with meego, no no no ;) Feb 23 19:20:06 hello everyone Feb 23 19:20:23 hey Amby Feb 23 19:20:26 or fedora "seeded" would perhaps be more accurate. Feb 23 19:20:39 jebba: well, if you can show a certain % of packages have a minimal diff, it makes for good data Feb 23 19:21:03 looks like extra docs and libbz2.a are added Feb 23 19:21:12 well, based on that, one would have to assume the macros they are using are very similar to fedora's. Feb 23 19:21:28 CosmoHill: actually other way around about docs. They dropped the docs for moblin (e.g. no dragging in a .pdf) Feb 23 19:21:37 ah yes Feb 23 19:21:55 i thought you did it the other way around Feb 23 19:22:28 fedora use there {?dist} thingy Feb 23 19:24:59 any todo from the MeeGo community perspective? Thought I dedicate this night to MeeGo. Feb 23 19:25:10 Amby: have a good beer and relax? ;) Feb 23 19:26:11 Stskeeps: I can do that! :-D I bring popcorn and read the discussion about changelogs Feb 23 19:27:39 * CosmoHill wonders why his pc is making noises when reading over the lan Feb 23 19:29:30 CosmoHill: sound card cross talk? Feb 23 19:29:44 it's not coming from the speakers Feb 23 19:30:41 it was doing it on one video but not another Feb 23 19:31:15 New programming forum! http://www.hackersrus.info JOIN! Feb 23 19:31:28 sigh Feb 23 19:31:30 don't bother Feb 23 19:31:33 Spammers love us Feb 23 19:31:36 * CosmoHill sighs too Feb 23 19:31:45 that's one thing I'm not used to Feb 23 19:31:47 At least the damn bots are mostly done for. Feb 23 19:32:04 i hang out on one server that happens to have 7 of the IRCops i it Feb 23 19:32:09 in the channel that is Feb 23 19:33:20 the spam on freenode is getting worse :/ Feb 23 19:33:42 i'm mostly on aniverse Feb 23 19:38:12 New programming forum http://www.hackersrus.info/index.php JOIN! Feb 23 19:38:21 burn in hell! Feb 23 19:38:39 yay Feb 23 19:57:01 ali1234: hmhm, it's currently building stuff Feb 23 19:57:20 what is? mock? Feb 23 19:57:20 ali1234: but, btw, rebuilding everything sequentially isn't exactly what's needed Feb 23 19:57:23 yes Feb 23 19:57:32 Corsac: yeah i know, it has to be bootstrapped in the right order Feb 23 19:57:39 more or less Feb 23 19:57:42 well, there are two ways Feb 23 19:58:06 you can pick each package independantly and rebuild them, in order, using build-deps from moblin (which is mock is currently doing, it seems) Feb 23 19:58:10 is this build running anywhere "publicly"? (like we can watch the build logs or whatnot) Feb 23 19:58:17 or you can do the bootstrap and use the stuff you built as build-deps Feb 23 19:58:25 jebba: not yet, i think Feb 23 19:58:27 but then you need something smarter than mock to feed it Feb 23 19:58:38 jebba: it's running on my laptop atm Feb 23 19:58:43 but it's a dumb stuff Feb 23 19:58:50 Corsac: with qemu-arm? Feb 23 19:58:52 and it's not really what we want Feb 23 19:59:02 jebba: no, I build for i386 atm Feb 23 19:59:09 i was thinking of doing it on my n900 running fedora 12 arm, which is even dumber ;) Feb 23 19:59:14 jebba: the goal is to recompile moblin for i386 (ie without SSSE3 requirement) Feb 23 19:59:31 I'm just starting to familiarise with mass rpmbuild Feb 23 19:59:38 ah ya. Mock is nice :) Feb 23 19:59:41 jebba: actually before that the goal is just to rebuild all moblin rpms Feb 23 19:59:46 I only used rpmbuild to build few packages here and there Feb 23 20:00:20 strangely (to me) neither mock nor rpm-build are here: http://maemo.org/downloads/product/Maemo5/burgerspace/ Feb 23 20:00:22 jebba: I have a touchbook so I could do it on it too Feb 23 20:00:26 whoops not there, here: http://repo.moblin.org/releases/trunk/repo/source/ Feb 23 20:00:41 jebba: if you have a small guide on how to set up your own OBS, it could be a benefit in this beginning Feb 23 20:00:55 as people want to do experiments but noone has moblin imported atm Feb 23 20:01:03 * CosmoHill reads about QT Feb 23 20:01:07 Corsac: Please do :) i should be very happy to test out any image you come up with too ;) Feb 23 20:01:17 CosmoHill: Why are you reading about QuickTime?! ;) Feb 23 20:01:22 :o Feb 23 20:01:28 I'd need to find an external drive though Feb 23 20:01:35 jebba: and i'm not sure build.meego is initially opened to mortals (which i am not happy about either) Feb 23 20:01:38 Corsac: have a look at Lacie Feb 23 20:01:48 CosmoHill: [23/2-2010 21:00:29] leinir: [Qt] QT is Apple's QuickTime. You probably mean Qt, the toolkit by Qt Software/Nokia. Feb 23 20:01:53 jebba: F12 on N900: is that in a chroot or a native install? Feb 23 20:02:00 native install Feb 23 20:02:08 ali1234: http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba/Fedora Feb 23 20:02:11 thanks Feb 23 20:02:14 new shot of meego in action http://penguinbait.com/n900.jpg Feb 23 20:02:16 was about to ask :) Feb 23 20:02:16 heh Feb 23 20:02:46 Stskeeps: i'm not up to speed enough on OBS, but if/when I get there i'll write something up if someone doesnt beat me to it. Feb 23 20:03:11 though it seems OBS is like flying an F15 to get groceries if you just want to build a package or two Feb 23 20:03:27 penguinbait: awesomesauce! :) Now you just need to swap kicker for plasma-mobile and you have a winner ;D Feb 23 20:03:33 jebba, at the speed you filled up the maemo wiki, even if someone had a head start, im sure you will catch up :D Feb 23 20:03:44 ps, does your keyboard actually start smoking as you type? Feb 23 20:04:23 heh. lcuk i did have smoke come out of an apple keyboard once... A big pooof! and goodbye. (running YDL a bit too hard, i guess) Feb 23 20:04:33 apple keyboard on TiBook Feb 23 20:04:43 yikes Feb 23 20:04:54 i get thinkpads just for the keyboard .... Feb 23 20:05:07 though they aint what they used to be... Feb 23 20:06:28 hmm... rd mode to disable watchdog again Feb 23 20:06:54 ali1234: in maemo? Feb 23 20:07:04 for anything other than maemo on n900 Feb 23 20:07:15 mer needs it to apparently Feb 23 20:07:32 no, we solved that one Feb 23 20:07:39 by a kernel patch? Feb 23 20:07:49 no Feb 23 20:07:51 or porting the daemon? Feb 23 20:07:53 dsme Feb 23 20:07:53 :P Feb 23 20:07:59 (yes, i'm ashamed of it) Feb 23 20:08:12 Stskeeps: btw, it was "solved" for f12/arm too (not by me). I'll put up how it was done. Feb 23 20:08:16 1 sec Feb 23 20:08:34 jebba: i should really petition someone for a DSME-less BME Feb 23 20:08:34 is there much of a learning curve from C++ to Qt Feb 23 20:08:35 ? Feb 23 20:08:48 CosmoHill: Qt is easier than C++ Feb 23 20:08:58 awesome Feb 23 20:09:06 cos i was confused in my C++ lecture / lesson today Feb 23 20:09:21 C++ is extremely confusing Feb 23 20:09:54 having said that, you have to have fought C++ to appreciate why sig/slot is so good Feb 23 20:10:21 http://www.freemoe.org/users/jebba/fedora/12/wd/ ali1234 Stskeeps Feb 23 20:10:47 a userspace daemon... Feb 23 20:11:09 ali1234: Not really... To know why it's so good, you just have to be familiar with OOP :) Feb 23 20:11:09 ali1234: ta Feb 23 20:12:09 But damn, is it ever possible to do just about everything with Qt... i've just spent the day finding out that Qt does yet another thing that c++ can't do ;) (in short: QMetaEnum) Feb 23 20:12:54 INFO: Done(a2ps-4.14-6.1.moblin2.src.rpm) Config(moblin) 21 minutes 51 seconds Feb 23 20:13:00 I'm not exactly done… Feb 23 20:13:09 youch. 21 min for a2ps? Feb 23 20:13:27 yeah Feb 23 20:14:32 I don't even know how that's possible Feb 23 20:14:54 Corsac: it downloads a bunch of rpms and builds a chroot Feb 23 20:15:08 the first time takes a while Feb 23 20:15:16 after that they are cached Feb 23 20:15:46 hmhm, maybe Feb 23 20:16:04 it's still building abiword, though it's expected to be much longer :) Feb 23 20:16:10 anyway, a bunch of rpms will fail with mock Feb 23 20:16:48 so this is a dead end unless you want to fix them all Feb 23 20:18:14 how do I create a wiki account? Feb 23 20:18:27 click on the “register” link? Feb 23 20:18:33 the register link seems elusive and apparently my single sign on didn't work Feb 23 20:18:42 although I can access all the rest of the content Feb 23 20:20:02 sivang: register and log in thru the main page, not the wiki. Seems broken at the moment if you try to do it thru the wiki. But logging in via main page will have you logged into the wiki too., Feb 23 20:20:03 sivang, I've had it working twice Feb 23 20:20:26 sivang, had to screw with it to get it to resend the activation email both times Feb 23 20:20:32 sivang, stopped working again so I gave up. Feb 23 20:21:28 a I see Feb 23 20:21:38 why don't we just use plone? Feb 23 20:21:53 quim is still waiting for my explenation "why moinmoin" Feb 23 20:21:58 but that's exactly the reasons Feb 23 20:21:58 twiki! Feb 23 20:22:05 Or Twiki for that matter! Feb 23 20:22:06 :-) Feb 23 20:22:19 we should all have shell accounts on a box and edit textfiles, really. Feb 23 20:22:51 i'm glad mediawiki is a settled question already. ;) Feb 23 20:23:27 jebba, erm, because it integrates into Drupal SSO better? Feb 23 20:23:33 s/jebba/sivang/ Feb 23 20:23:34 GeneralAntilles meant: sivang, erm, because it integrates into Drupal SSO better? Feb 23 20:23:36 jebba: I don't know how to answer Quim, I have valid arguments but :-) Feb 23 20:23:51 GeneralAntilles: hmm, Drupal... Feb 23 20:23:57 * sivang used to work for Zend Technologies Feb 23 20:24:00 Which I hope we can still change, actually. Feb 23 20:24:13 I don't quite like the PHP web "apps" Feb 23 20:24:28 sivang, don't expect any useful discussion unless you're willing to throw some real arguments behind it. Feb 23 20:24:37 * GeneralAntilles is in favor of using Midgard. Feb 23 20:24:39 True Feb 23 20:25:34 * jebba is in favor of static html Feb 23 20:25:50 * sp3000 is in favor of arguments Feb 23 20:25:57 sivang, then please explain me this facebook craziness regarding their code re-compilation from php to c++ Feb 23 20:25:57 also, violence Feb 23 20:25:58 we should have a static site where people can do git checkins. Now that woudl be cool ;) Feb 23 20:26:00 * GeneralAntilles argues that sp3000 sucks. Feb 23 20:26:03 * GeneralAntilles throws rocks. Feb 23 20:26:23 * sp3000 throws chairs Feb 23 20:26:32 ballmer >:o Feb 23 20:26:55 (surely they - fb - could have just licensed zend technologie, for similar performance gains?) Feb 23 20:27:30 http://developers.facebook.com/news.php?story=358&blog=1 Feb 23 20:31:41 mikhas: facebook is crazy Feb 23 20:31:46 mikhas: it is not PHP's fault Feb 23 20:32:05 mikhas: erlang seems to not help them as well, they need to stop being a monopoly and outsource some of their cluster :) Feb 23 20:32:46 i hear facebook sucks so much it could challange dyson Feb 23 20:32:49 good Feb 23 20:32:52 facebook chat* Feb 23 20:34:01 CosmoHill: http://sivang.blogspot.com/2009/08/facebook-chat-worst-chat-service-in.html Feb 23 20:34:08 :3 Feb 23 20:34:24 mikhas: but they are probably not happy with the optimizer's performance and want something else now Feb 23 20:34:36 they are going XMPP now, iirc Feb 23 20:34:45 jebba: they are saying this for *ages* now Feb 23 20:34:48 and I mean, ages Feb 23 20:35:00 mikhas: hmm, interesting. Feb 23 20:35:06 I think they have already Feb 23 20:35:17 thiago_home: have you sniffed it to make sure ? Feb 23 20:35:42 hahah "simple to debug" Feb 23 20:35:45 php ;) Feb 23 20:36:25 if i were to use facebook chat I'd go via adium or pidgin Feb 23 20:36:31 sivang: none of the things in that moinmoin link appear to be much of an advantage..... Feb 23 20:36:42 jebba: automatic CamelCase is a rock Feb 23 20:36:49 whatever Feb 23 20:36:50 jebba: e.g. creating links from CamelCase Feb 23 20:36:57 that's a very small gain Feb 23 20:37:08 jebba: which for me means I can think up while I write, and then click the camel cased links and write up a drill down Feb 23 20:37:17 jebba: this was monumental for me to start up the doc team at Ubuntu Feb 23 20:37:27 I lik the CamelCase links Feb 23 20:37:28 jebba: "Design as you type" Feb 23 20:37:30 *like Feb 23 20:37:37 better than mediawiki, much better Feb 23 20:37:47 in my taste, at least. Feb 23 20:37:55 but let's see what people think Feb 23 20:38:02 instead of just [[CamelCase]]... But think of how many more people already know mediawiki syntax. I groan when I have to learn some new syntax just to edit somoene's wiki. Very small upside... Feb 23 20:38:24 mediawiki syntax can be quickly forgotten Feb 23 20:38:26 jebba: not much to know in MoinMoin (read: WYSIWYG) Feb 23 20:38:28 because it's so rubbish Feb 23 20:38:31 sivang: well, that one link you sent to the list sure as hell isn't going to convince meego to switch over, sorry to say. Feb 23 20:38:49 * CosmoHill isn't on facebook Feb 23 20:39:00 MoinMoin has docbook export Feb 23 20:39:04 well, looking at that comparison page ( http://moinmo.in/MoinMoinVsMediaWiki ) they aren't *that* different, just different enough. Feb 23 20:39:04 that should do it Feb 23 20:39:11 We've got a whole team of people who know and use MediaWiki Feb 23 20:39:14 jebba: probably not, which is a shame, PHP tools are nice, but they're lack of systemic thinking starts to bite quite early. Feb 23 20:39:38 well, i've used a site or two which seems to show that mediawiki has been adequate..... Feb 23 20:39:42 We've also got a whole range of doc tools for Nokia that target MediaWiki. Feb 23 20:39:52 jebba: it's good, but MoinMoin is better. Feb 23 20:39:54 So unless you have some really compelling reasons why MoinMoin would be better. . . . Feb 23 20:40:03 GeneralAntilles: yeah, I know from the thread. Feb 23 20:40:18 "I've used two computers w/ CDE which seems to show to me that CDE has been adequate" Feb 23 20:40:20 sivang: marginally better, if that. It's gotta be a *lot* better.... Feb 23 20:40:21 =D Feb 23 20:40:28 GeneralAntilles: I once did a presentation of taking a user, letting him work on MOin and Mediawiki and see what he says Feb 23 20:40:30 MoinMoin is written in python and not php. Case closed Feb 23 20:40:35 lbt, word Feb 23 20:40:36 heh Feb 23 20:40:36 lbt: ? Feb 23 20:41:02 GeneralAntilles: think "lower barrier for entry" Feb 23 20:41:14 exactly, and for the users, that's mediawiki. Feb 23 20:41:18 sivang, yeah, the lower barrier is all of the people who already dabble in wikipedia. :) Feb 23 20:41:45 GeneralAntilles: so you're saying the same folks who do wikipedia will come and write docs for MeeGO ? Feb 23 20:41:46 http://moinmo.in/DocBook Feb 23 20:41:54 sivang: uh, ya. Feb 23 20:41:56 a very compelling argument Feb 23 20:42:12 wiki contents could come from different kind of sources Feb 23 20:42:14 sivang, I'm saying that there are lots of people in communities with experience in MediaWiki. Feb 23 20:42:20 mikhas: ah forgot, so in Ubuntu some of the docs were generated right off the wiki Feb 23 20:42:37 so we could have the phone brochoures or paper intro auto generated from the wiki Feb 23 20:42:37 docbook would be nice. I briefly considered doing a mediawiki to latex converter which would rule, but it would be sooooo boring to write. Feb 23 20:42:41 oh, and ACLs Feb 23 20:42:54 jebba: don't reinvent, reuse! Feb 23 20:43:04 jebba, comparison pages on the official website are always oh so unbiased. ;) Feb 23 20:43:18 sivang, yeah, Nokia already has tooling to do that. :) Feb 23 20:43:19 mediawiki is better known. The poor sad muppets on tmo are learning mw syntax. I say switch to MoinMoin to start a flame war... Feb 23 20:43:21 what surprised me is the comparision basically didn't show *too* much differences at all. Feb 23 20:43:40 lbt: hehe, okay I back off. Feb 23 20:43:47 what is TMO ? Feb 23 20:43:50 jebba, and most of the comparison points seem totally irrelevant to me. Feb 23 20:43:51 talk.maemo.org Feb 23 20:43:57 GeneralAntilles: agreed. ... Feb 23 20:44:08 tmo is where most of the non-tech maemo community hang out Feb 23 20:44:19 and it is MW syntax powered? Feb 23 20:44:21 and there are a lot of them Feb 23 20:44:21 one drawback to mediawiki is it doesnt go over to print very nicely. Feb 23 20:44:34 jebba: but nokia has tooling for that! Feb 23 20:44:35 :) Feb 23 20:44:42 the wiki.maemo.org is fairly huge Feb 23 20:44:43 i hope so Feb 23 20:45:59 http://www.osnews.com/thread?374748 Feb 23 20:46:01 ^^^^ Feb 23 20:46:43 the syntax could make me setup a wiki on my servers and link to it from MW Feb 23 20:46:51 I have to admit I never managed with MW syntax Feb 23 20:46:54 but that's just me. Feb 23 20:47:01 If everybody's happy with it, then I back off :-) Feb 23 20:47:15 sivang: don't get me wrong. I prefer MM. But for meego the encumbent is probably better Feb 23 20:47:28 s/enc/inc/ Feb 23 20:47:29 lbt meant: sivang: don't get me wrong. I prefer MM. But for meego the incumbent is probably better Feb 23 20:47:32 even when working in Zend, I sweared alot at MW when trying to write specs for the weekly QA meeting Feb 23 20:47:54 and Zeev and Andi used to hear that :-) Feb 23 20:47:58 (the rooms were close) Feb 23 20:49:30 not to mention embedding pics and drawings Feb 23 20:49:42 but hey, if it works better for the new user of MeeGO , then I'm sold. Feb 23 20:50:38 What do you think will be the major steps for MeeGo? Millions of devices or signed-up users, vendors? Feb 23 20:51:01 I think there're gonna be 3-4 major devices. Feb 23 20:51:38 hopefully the user community will get larger and the early adopters as well. I am tried of hearing "iPhone's OS is better" Feb 23 20:52:28 iPhone's OS isn't better Feb 23 20:52:31 it just has more users Feb 23 20:52:42 It IS more polished. Feb 23 20:52:56 right Feb 23 20:52:59 GeneralAntilles: +++ Feb 23 20:53:02 Apple knows how ship a cohesive and polished product Feb 23 20:53:03 thiago_home: sivang: it will be always better - in certain conditions Feb 23 20:53:04 that's my big issue Feb 23 20:53:13 Amby: not if I can help it. Feb 23 20:53:17 Nokia doesn't care enough to have non-embarrassing string sets. Feb 23 20:53:28 GeneralAntilles: not talkiung about the strings sets. Feb 23 20:53:42 sivang, it's about the whole production. :) Feb 23 20:53:47 Strings are a part of that Feb 23 20:53:56 GeneralAntilles: true :) still, there are more pressing issue Feb 23 20:53:58 in usability Feb 23 20:53:59 and a good example of something Nokia seems entirely incapable of getting right. Feb 23 20:54:03 in stability Feb 23 20:54:15 You don't see Apple shipping typos. Feb 23 20:54:17 Period. Feb 23 20:54:17 GeneralAntilles: you have to keep in mind the size of the challange Feb 23 20:54:28 GeneralAntilles: I haven't found typos though. Feb 23 20:54:31 GeneralAntilles: bug# ? Feb 23 20:54:33 I think that says a lot about the mentality of a company. Feb 23 20:54:38 sivang, I've filed dozens. Feb 23 20:54:38 The iPhone also seems to be an enabler (or was) - apple's marketing is so good that no one is scared of actually *using* it. so people w/o prior inet experience learnt using it via the iPhone. Feb 23 20:54:40 GeneralAntilles: Nokia does leave typos in their major PRs even. Feb 23 20:54:54 They refuse to fix them, too. Feb 23 20:55:52 I would be happy, if Nokia could at least get rid of the obvious mistakes. (Not expecting anytime soon) Feb 23 20:56:03 sivang, http://bugs.maemo.org/buglist.cgi?query_format=advanced&product=Translations&product=User+guide+%26+Help+content Feb 23 20:56:20 mikhas: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9089 Feb 23 20:56:21 Bug 9089: Upgrading Maemo itself (nokia official recommended upgrade) failed with "no enough space" on target device. Feb 23 20:56:25 sivang, the best example was "You loose!" in one of the old games. Feb 23 20:56:31 mikhas: the response is what puts us back behind iPhone OS Feb 23 20:56:41 GeneralAntilles: hehe Feb 23 20:56:50 mikhas: (the response to the bug report, that is) Feb 23 20:56:57 Their documentation is worse yet. Feb 23 20:57:28 I wish there were another company that delivered a product like Apple delivers products. Feb 23 20:57:37 Unfortunately nobody else seems to care enough. Feb 23 20:58:00 I wish there were another company with as polished OS as Apples iPhone :P Feb 23 20:58:05 you seriously think they don't care? Feb 23 20:58:09 with the openness of nokia ;) Feb 23 20:58:18 red: we need to make this happen. Feb 23 20:58:24 sivang, is it incompetence instead? Feb 23 20:58:27 would if I could ;) Feb 23 20:58:34 GeneralAntilles: no. Feb 23 20:58:57 At least with Nokia I've interacted with them enough to know that there definitely are people there who don't care. Feb 23 20:59:10 im wondering if it would be possible to lower the resolution of N900 for increased battery life / faster graphics Feb 23 20:59:16 GeneralAntilles: my experience is different altogether, interesting. Feb 23 20:59:38 or if it gets all screwed up like LCDs that are on non-native resolution Feb 23 20:59:55 sivang: I think there are simply too many voices in Nokia. Things (like leadership and direction) gets lost in between Feb 23 20:59:59 GeneralAntilles: nokia was a device company and still is, Apple always concentrated ont he software. Feb 23 21:00:27 GeneralAntilles: and symbian is top-notch in my taste, as it had all the years to mature. Feb 23 21:00:34 Nokia does not have any target on "perfection". Feb 23 21:00:36 sivang, working with Maemo has been a long train of frustration. Feb 23 21:00:43 Symbian is garbage Feb 23 21:01:04 I've never enjoyed using a Symbian device. Feb 23 21:01:20 openmoko hardware is too primitive :-p Feb 23 21:01:28 GeneralAntilles: ? that's odd, tried the N97 Mini ? Feb 23 21:01:32 * GeneralAntilles finds this rather hilarious. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/19/symbian_compile/ Feb 23 21:01:38 GeneralAntilles: it's like Maemo , but works :-) Feb 23 21:01:44 sivang, pfffft Feb 23 21:01:45 GeneralAntilles: and no coredumps Feb 23 21:01:48 ;) Feb 23 21:01:53 Symbian isn't even vaguely like Maemo Feb 23 21:02:01 form the user perspective Feb 23 21:02:02 S60v5 is awful Feb 23 21:02:08 Yeah, no. Feb 23 21:02:10 GeneralAntilles: What do you not like about it? Feb 23 21:02:24 sivang: Symbian does not work :) I'm not getting close to that before v4 Feb 23 21:02:37 I don't like the bastardization of the keypad UI with a touch Ui Feb 23 21:02:39 in a test we tried people got along with Symbian much quicker and found it less confusing then Maemo Feb 23 21:02:46 I don't like what a pain in the ass the system tends to be Feb 23 21:02:53 I don't like anything about it, really. Feb 23 21:02:56 :) Feb 23 21:03:11 sivang, because it's more similar to the types of phones people generally use Feb 23 21:03:17 * GeneralAntilles is always suspect of usability tests like that Feb 23 21:03:23 Besides which they don't really tell you anything useful Feb 23 21:03:41 vi is confusing to everybody the first few times they use it Feb 23 21:03:50 WordPad tends not to be Feb 23 21:03:54 less was confusing to me the first time Feb 23 21:03:56 Which is the more useful tool? Feb 23 21:04:00 I flipped to a different terminal and killed it Feb 23 21:04:05 I didn't know how to exit it Feb 23 21:04:37 Did anyone read Vanjoki's statement about how they should never have tried making the N97 with current symbian version and should have waited for symbian3? :) Feb 23 21:04:43 sivang, I've spent so many hours trying to get my 5800 to update with each release. Feb 23 21:04:48 sivang, damn thing is useless. Feb 23 21:04:53 sivang, N900 is a worlds better device. Feb 23 21:05:12 That isn't running an OS that was better left in the 90s. Feb 23 21:05:36 Suurorca: rather symb^4 Feb 23 21:05:52 and hello everyone Feb 23 21:06:42 GeneralAntilles: I know it's better, but still in .IL where people were always Nokia customers, symbian is more customary and known. Feb 23 21:06:42 I couldn't update an N97 Feb 23 21:06:47 my N900, I just reflash it Feb 23 21:06:51 GeneralAntilles: or mostly Nokia customers. Feb 23 21:07:01 updates worked well for me on the 97 Mini Feb 23 21:07:02 GeneralAntilles: Yes well... If you want to think it like that, isn't linux a lot older than original symbian, and it's unix heritage older still? Feb 23 21:07:28 Will it be possible to test Symbian 3 on the N97 Mini ? Feb 23 21:07:33 e.g. to reflash with it? Feb 23 21:07:41 Suurorca, yeah, but it isn't stuck in the previous decade. Feb 23 21:07:41 highly unlikely, I'd say Feb 23 21:08:19 what I'm trying to say that we have LOTS of work ahead of us to make the tablets not a hacker's only toy. Feb 23 21:08:36 N900 is already halfway there. Feb 23 21:08:38 Symbian has jumped over this hoop years before. Feb 23 21:08:51 well, come to think of it, it was never a community effort until now :) Feb 23 21:08:55 sivang, yeah, problem is it's now lying lame on the sidelines. Feb 23 21:09:02 GeneralAntilles: true, and that's sad. Feb 23 21:09:10 * GeneralAntilles wont shed any tears. Feb 23 21:09:27 GeneralAntilles: I don't really believe Nokia are going to let it bit-rot Feb 23 21:09:38 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/15/meego_nokia_intel/ Feb 23 21:09:41 android attack?! Feb 23 21:09:42 :) Feb 23 21:09:44 Yes, but only because they have dinosaurs in charge of the company. Feb 23 21:10:08 dinosaurs that know where the money (still) is? =p Feb 23 21:10:15 mikhas: ++ Feb 23 21:10:20 mikhas, money's in S40. Feb 23 21:10:32 GeneralAntilles: oh ? Feb 23 21:10:33 mikhas, S60's slipped too far away from the top end. Feb 23 21:10:56 People are abandoning that ship in droves. Feb 23 21:11:02 Android, iPhone OS, webOS, etc. Feb 23 21:11:23 haha, you said webOS Feb 23 21:11:35 mikhas, CDMA is big in the US. Feb 23 21:12:24 GeneralAntilles: I have to tell you that Dinasours produce one of the best hardware line I've know and loved for years, and the N900 is no exception in durability and quality. Feb 23 21:12:33 GeneralAntilles: "those dinasours" Feb 23 21:12:34 :) Feb 23 21:12:48 Dinosaurs don't produce anything. Feb 23 21:12:55 Oil ? ;) Feb 23 21:13:02 heh Feb 23 21:13:08 I just wished they didn't use IntelGMA on the netbooks. Feb 23 21:13:20 GMA500? Feb 23 21:13:28 Makes it harder for me to run my favorite linux without tinting with the prop. driver. Feb 23 21:13:31 tripzero: yep Feb 23 21:13:39 cuz GMA945 is okay Feb 23 21:13:41 gma950 is sane (945 family) Feb 23 21:13:46 I Know Feb 23 21:13:49 let me find the link Feb 23 21:13:51 * sivang googles Feb 23 21:13:57 and the oil/fossil link is less certain than you'd think these days. ;) Feb 23 21:14:15 hehe Feb 23 21:14:58 I've put up a proposal for MeeGo milestones, if anyone is interested in improving it: http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo_Milestones Feb 23 21:15:45 amby, isn't the release date 2nd half of 2010? Feb 23 21:16:12 simula: no it's more like april/may ish Feb 23 21:16:19 simula_: exactly y purpose with this wiki doc :) Feb 23 21:16:31 Amby: initial reaction would be that something like this exists but not published Feb 23 21:16:38 Amby: your schedule does not seem to match what meego has been executing to Feb 23 21:16:41 but 2H10 is the first expected devices, right? Feb 23 21:16:42 oh wow, that's impressive... thanks for the correction arjan :) Feb 23 21:16:52 Amby: there's a release well before you can have devices Feb 23 21:17:16 Amby: I shallt ry to fix my login first (MoinMoin single sign on is superb) and comment over :) Feb 23 21:17:23 oo, i know the day it'll sell 10million Feb 23 21:17:27 i have it on my schedule Feb 23 21:17:29 arjan: so, can you help me correct some? Feb 23 21:17:54 this needs to come from the steering group Feb 23 21:18:18 Amby: what's 2H10 ? Feb 23 21:18:30 2nd half 2010 Feb 23 21:18:36 lol Feb 23 21:18:50 I think this is it, not sure if that's the GMA500 thingo that I played with at Developer Day 2009 TLV Feb 23 21:18:53 http://conversations.nokia.com/2009/08/24/nokia-booklet-3g-mini-laptop-unveiled/ Feb 23 21:21:47 someone ha installed meego on n900? Feb 23 21:21:49 Amby: have you taken QA cycles in account ? Feb 23 21:21:59 evening all Feb 23 21:22:03 niqt: there's no ARM meego yet Feb 23 21:22:05 n900 looks nice Feb 23 21:22:11 CosmoHill: it is da thang! Feb 23 21:22:13 :( Feb 23 21:22:13 :) Feb 23 21:22:21 however Feb 23 21:22:25 thiago_home: is there a scratchbox for it already ? Feb 23 21:22:28 n900 = £470 Feb 23 21:22:31 my car = £500 Feb 23 21:22:33 sivang: I haven't taken anything into account, just drafted some thoughts. Feb 23 21:22:44 sivang: not yet Feb 23 21:22:51 Amby: okay, am I free to comment to the doc ? I won't touch it inline Feb 23 21:23:15 Amby: may I ask what's your function in MeeGo/Intel/Nokia ? Feb 23 21:23:30 sivang: touch it, I don't mind. MeeGo community member wannabe :) Feb 23 21:23:39 Amby: okay Feb 23 21:23:48 CosmoHill, you drive an expensive car! Feb 23 21:23:51 I still can not prove a image on the pc :( Feb 23 21:24:00 http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who Feb 23 21:24:04 one thing i really hate about netbooks, they are sold with contracts for wireless internet Feb 23 21:24:17 so they do they not use netboooks with internal sim card holders Feb 23 21:25:04 Are they? Feb 23 21:25:44 CosmoHill: not here Feb 23 21:25:54 in the UK they all come with dongles Feb 23 21:25:56 CosmoHill: you are free here since the market for GSM netbook is not existant yet :) Feb 23 21:26:29 just what i want with a small computer I'd throw about,s omething to snap off Feb 23 21:28:19 hi Feb 23 21:28:28 salut Feb 23 21:28:31 hmm Feb 23 21:28:33 can't edit Feb 23 21:28:37 I've logged form the main apge Feb 23 21:28:41 from the main page Feb 23 21:28:42 and still Feb 23 21:28:48 no go Feb 23 21:28:49 ? Feb 23 21:28:51 what shoudl I do ? Feb 23 21:29:13 check your keyboard for sticky stuff under your enter key? Feb 23 21:29:19 :-> Feb 23 21:29:53 Myrtti: that was low dude :) Feb 23 21:29:57 who? Feb 23 21:30:09 ah nice I've secured my real name as the nick :) Feb 23 21:31:20 Moo, Myrtti, and good night Feb 23 21:31:29 RST38h: nitenite dearie *smooch* Feb 23 21:32:14 We were doing so well on the splits, too. Feb 23 21:32:43 hehe Feb 23 21:33:05 GeneralAntilles: you should see how well my irssi is handling the situation on #ubuntu Feb 23 21:33:09 hint: it's not Feb 23 21:33:23 Myrtti, I know how that goes. Feb 23 21:33:48 could be worse though Feb 23 21:33:58 I remember back in 2001 or so when I still used mIRC. Feb 23 21:34:04 *shudder* Feb 23 21:34:13 oh my god! Feb 23 21:34:23 ERC FTW Feb 23 21:34:28 Myrtti: some things are better left unsaid :) Feb 23 21:34:39 I have never used mIRC Feb 23 21:34:46 am I right there are no arm boards with Free 3d drivers? what about 2d/video? Feb 23 21:35:02 good for you. I barely knew Linux/open source existed then Feb 23 21:35:23 Myrtti: ah granted, where are you from? Feb 23 21:35:37 Winland Feb 23 21:35:44 =) Feb 23 21:36:41 Scelt: there exists such a place? Feb 23 21:36:58 ye, the official name is Finland Feb 23 21:37:17 CosmoHill: my netbook doesn't have a sim slot, you can buy direct from the manufactuter Feb 23 21:37:38 i mean netbooks that come with 3G contracts Feb 23 21:37:42 this channel need soon a .fi spin-off ;p Feb 23 21:38:22 since when has it *not* been that? Feb 23 21:38:56 since the second some one uttered the first word in english here. Feb 23 21:38:57 the amount of IRCers from Finland has always been high Feb 23 21:39:11 sure, we invented the whole IRC Feb 23 21:39:16 Suurorca: due to the caltnesses of .fi ? :) Feb 23 21:39:18 the IRC inventor works for Nokia Feb 23 21:39:26 bfree, I'm under the impression that the situation with DSS on beagleboard is pretty good Feb 23 21:39:33 that nokia looks nice Feb 23 21:39:42 thiago_home: he does? cool Feb 23 21:40:10 CosmoHill, amusingly that nokia netbook can't run moblin sanely, I believe it's gma500 :) Feb 23 21:40:14 Myrtti: so php3 is from 1997, "made in israel" :-) http://www.php.net/manual/en/history.php.php Feb 23 21:40:21 meh Feb 23 21:42:28 yep, Poulsbo Feb 23 21:42:44 I've never actually bought a computer Feb 23 21:42:47 I've been given them Feb 23 21:43:44 using secure connection with sasl login now ♥ Feb 23 21:44:04 Nooooo, don't mention the gma500 Feb 23 21:44:41 myrtti: :) Feb 23 21:45:06 slaine_, right from forum.nokia.com: "Windows®. Life without Walls™. Nokia recommends Windows 7." ;-) Feb 23 21:45:18 so was Finaland like a Microsoft shop back then Feb 23 21:45:19 ? Feb 23 21:45:21 Myrtti: ^^^ Feb 23 21:45:28 *Finland Feb 23 21:45:31 * slaine_ keels over Feb 23 21:46:47 sivang: I knew of linux, but hadn't really looked into it at that time. I was in tender age of 21, learning to use ssh (also a Finnish invention!), studying and getting drunk. Feb 23 21:47:13 that choice of W7 for Booklet was a bit surprise for me Feb 23 21:48:39 when i first heard from the device, i assumed some higly modified linux bundle Feb 23 21:48:45 W7 on a booklet... Feb 23 21:48:45 You know, it's basically a netbook so that operators who are lazy don't need to start dealing with yet another manufacturer (Asus, Acer?) for the bundled contract+sim+netbook deals Feb 23 21:48:48 god forbid Feb 23 21:48:58 slaine_: cool dude! Feb 23 21:49:12 ? Feb 23 21:49:14 slaine_: (re: ML) Feb 23 21:49:25 Oh, qt creator etc. Feb 23 21:49:27 thanks Feb 23 21:49:33 oh, and watching Babylon 5. And discussing overclocking. that was my thang then. Feb 23 21:49:35 slaine_: but why is it a problem to rebuild for meego ? Feb 23 21:49:39 and designing webpages. Feb 23 21:49:43 Myrtti: ah, I see Feb 23 21:49:52 sivang: how do you mean ? Feb 23 21:49:58 Myrtti: I had my first hosting startup based on RedHat's that time. Feb 23 21:50:15 * ShadowJK remembers using "Aso" to discuss Babylon 5 on mbnet's purkki BBS Feb 23 21:50:17 slaine_: You said that the creator is not available from the MeeGO repos Feb 23 21:50:37 No, I said the Moblin repos Feb 23 21:50:43 slaine_: oh. Feb 23 21:50:47 slaine_: I'm getting tired. Feb 23 21:50:48 :) Feb 23 21:50:52 MeeGo will have it, when it's released Feb 23 21:51:29 is repositories open to use part of the milestones? Feb 23 21:52:03 moblin repos are open already Feb 23 21:52:07 Qt repos too Feb 23 21:52:39 ok, I lied. I had installed RedHat for the first time by then, but I didn't really know how to use it. Feb 23 21:52:43 MeeGo repo's, not so much Feb 23 21:53:02 repos of what? Feb 23 21:53:07 Myrtti: Ah, Babylong 5, the scifi show that changed them all Feb 23 21:53:34 * thiago_home looks at his boxed set of all Babylon 5 DVDs Feb 23 21:53:47 lol, Babylong, d'oh. I'm tired too Feb 23 21:53:52 ah yes, the legendary dropping ceilings Feb 23 21:53:59 ali1234: how's your mock build going ? Feb 23 21:54:05 as opposed to Babyshort Feb 23 21:54:13 slaine_: gave up on it :/ Feb 23 21:54:19 gah Feb 23 21:54:27 slaine_: :) Feb 23 21:54:30 got distracted by real work Feb 23 21:54:36 yeah, that happens Feb 23 21:54:45 I'll have a poke when I get in tomorrow Feb 23 21:54:48 rarely, but it does :-p Feb 23 21:54:56 slaine_: you work for Nokia ? Feb 23 21:55:08 it's finished downloading at least :) Feb 23 21:55:16 sivang: No, i'm just a user Feb 23 21:55:36 slaine_: like me :) Feb 23 21:55:42 yay Feb 23 21:56:12 how do I log in... Feb 23 21:56:14 how do I log... Feb 23 21:56:30 please dear SSO , work! Feb 23 21:56:36 kthxbye Feb 23 21:57:42 slaine_: is this the wiki you added you doc to? Feb 23 21:57:49 slaine_: how do I add content to there? Feb 23 21:59:13 I didn't update a wiki Feb 23 21:59:53 slaine_: i still have not figured out how i am going to sort out the deps so i can build in the right order Feb 23 22:01:43 slaine_: so how do I get acces for docs publishing at the CMS ? Feb 23 22:02:37 sivang: I've no idea what you're talking about, sorry. Got a url ? Feb 23 22:02:59 ali1234: Isn't that the point of the obs system though Feb 23 22:03:14 slaine_: what needs to happen so I can publish my PySide tutorial there as well when it is done? Feb 23 22:03:15 it'll pull in the rpms needed for each package Feb 23 22:03:34 slaine_: i guess so, yeah Feb 23 22:03:42 sivang: to what site Feb 23 22:04:06 slaine_: it isn't about pulling in rpms though, mock does that. it is about building them in the right order so you link against the new ones instead of the old ones Feb 23 22:04:14 but i guess OBS does that too Feb 23 22:04:51 but linking against the default packages is still ok at the build stage Feb 23 22:04:57 is it? Feb 23 22:05:06 what if something gets static linked? Feb 23 22:06:45 it might be ok, but there's no way to tell without testing every binary for SSSE3 instructions Feb 23 22:07:08 That would be a problem then alright. You could rebuild the packages listed in the obs config, the ones that it uses for the chroot Feb 23 22:07:18 starting with glibc and then gcc Feb 23 22:07:23 yeah Feb 23 22:07:36 "manual bootstrapping" Feb 23 22:08:11 alternatively, bootstrap it against a distro that does not use SSSE3, eg F12 :) Feb 23 22:08:44 that is, build the chroot packages against F12, then build all packages again against that, in dependency order Feb 23 22:10:24 slaine_: here -> http://meego.com/developers/ Feb 23 22:14:23 baby duty, brb Feb 23 22:14:50 * CosmoHill sniffs Feb 23 22:14:54 poor slaine Feb 23 22:25:13 lol @ http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process "The kernel is the heart of Linux" O RLY? Feb 23 22:25:34 GeneralAntilles: Is qgil arguing for or against power-user/enthusiasts being close to developers here: http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?p=543209#post543209? (Given comments about device-specific app stores as well...) Feb 23 22:26:03 lol Feb 23 22:26:21 wiretapped: well, in the sense that the fingers, thumb, palm, and back of hand together are the heart of the hand Feb 23 22:26:24 :) Feb 23 22:26:38 Jaffa: hmm Feb 23 22:27:11 Jaffa, against. Feb 23 22:27:27 Jaffa, especially based on his ml comments. Feb 23 22:27:29 why should they be closed? Feb 23 22:28:54 * lbt wonders if meego has lighttpd in the repos... Feb 23 22:30:02 wiretapped: hehe Feb 23 22:30:25 * sivang makes thai food Feb 23 22:30:39 Jaffa: how do you define power-user/enthusiast? i would consider myself one, but i would not go anywhere near such forums as listed on that post you link Feb 23 22:30:55 Jaffa: and if i want to talk to android develoeprs i know where to find them Feb 23 22:31:47 Jaffa: essentially, the people on those forums are not power users, they are just regular users Feb 23 22:38:07 ali1234: "Power-user/enthusiasts", IMHO, are the majority of the *.maemo.org users to date. Anyone who is committed enough to post to a forum more than a few times for longer than a couple of weeks is a power-user/enthusiast. Feb 23 22:38:28 i think i would class myself as a power user Feb 23 22:38:42 i mean my server is running a distro built from source packages Feb 23 22:38:47 (and it's not gentoo) Feb 23 22:38:55 Jaffa: that definition would seem to include several prolific trolls... and not me, since i don't ever go on tmo Feb 23 22:39:04 ali1234: talk.maemo.org is a hive of scum and villainy - but for every clueless n00b, I've got someone else willing to deal with them on my behalf and someone else to provide valuable feedback on applications at various levels. Feb 23 22:39:07 i posted there like twice Feb 23 22:39:36 ali1234: Obviously, a power-user/enthusiast is more than someone who posts in a forum, but you asked for a definition in the context of a forum. Feb 23 22:39:39 we have some trolls on LFS Feb 23 22:39:50 and some people where you need to sit down and talk them through stuff Feb 23 22:39:58 ali1234: Someone who hangs out on an IRC channel and is engaged in meta-discussions counts too ;-) Feb 23 22:41:00 Mrs Jaffa is a *regular* user - she doesn't go to any website about her N810 - she just uses the thing. She installs a few pieces of software from Extras and then users them. No engagement in the community at all. *That's* a regular user. Feb 23 22:41:56 so, to put the question another way, do you think developers should be expected to read the forums? Feb 23 22:42:12 i mean, regards "closeness" Feb 23 22:43:06 Which developers? Feb 23 22:43:19 And I'd object to the word "expected". Feb 23 22:43:27 "for or against power-user/enthusiasts being close to developers" <- those developers Feb 23 22:44:06 jaffa :) well defined views as usual, i still cringe everytime i read fora, but thats just for getting used to :D Feb 23 22:44:19 I'd expect anyone who is passionate about a platform to try and be aware of what's going on there, whether it's directly posting/reading or through some kind of aggregation service Feb 23 22:44:30 lcuk: Sorry, I find "forums" so... unclassical ;-) Feb 23 22:44:31 aggregation service ftw Feb 23 22:44:37 ali1234: Indeed ;-) Feb 23 22:44:44 heh ofc Feb 23 22:45:27 but... and it is a big but... it has to be an aggregation service, not a gateway Feb 23 22:45:36 ali1234: And, I say this as someone who prefers mailing lists for detailed technical discussion, offline reading, .... However, being *hostile* to non-developers isn't a good idea, IMHO. Feb 23 22:47:16 still, i think you are wrong in saying that regular users never see the community at all Feb 23 22:47:26 a lot of people will only go to the forum when they have a problem Feb 23 22:47:49 or any part of the community for that matter Feb 23 22:48:18 they only want an answer... nothing more... still, nothing wrong with that Feb 23 22:48:56 jaffa would your remarks have been the same if it occured when internettablettalk was the semi official forum Feb 23 22:49:05 it being this meego Feb 23 22:49:21 ali1234: I wonder, if forum is the right channel for problem - answer type of things Feb 23 22:49:31 no Feb 23 22:49:41 Amby: the question is irrelevant because people will use it for that whether you like it or not :) Feb 23 22:49:44 its a good place to chill and discuss with budies Feb 23 22:49:50 but its rarely an information source Feb 23 22:50:14 but i guess what i am trying to say is: if "regular user" has a problem and goes to post on the forum - does that instantly make them a power user? Feb 23 22:50:28 ali1234: in our team we use a bit structured question - answer tool (kinda Yahoo Answers) Feb 23 22:50:32 id like to see a hybrid where forum threads span out from information Feb 23 22:50:44 like having the talk page on a wiki being an actual thread Feb 23 22:50:50 ali1234: I said regular posting over an extended period of time, didn't I? Two posts over two weeks about a specific problem don't make them part of the community. Feb 23 22:51:24 lcuk, the Ubuntu forums are pretty good for getting answers to issues Feb 23 22:51:45 yes because they are question/answer oriented Feb 23 22:51:47 there's a massive ratio of data/noise though Feb 23 22:51:57 indeed. and the popular threads get stickied, and then transfered to the wiki. there is established protocol for this kind of thing :) Feb 23 22:52:04 i see ubuntu more as bugzilla Feb 23 22:52:08 a forum can be what you want it to be Feb 23 22:52:12 yeah Feb 23 22:52:27 ubuntu doesn't use bugzilla, launchpad is vastly superior from a user point of view Feb 23 22:52:29 maybe i just dont see tmo as information because its not filterable and on many pages Feb 23 22:52:30 lcuk: An interesting question (about the ITT thing). ITT existed really from about the same time as maemo.org, but was more useful and more community based straight off. There was no competition so no fragmentation and the OS was so immature that a lot of stuff was still happening with "pure" techies on the mailing lists. One'd hope that MeeGo - and MeeGo devices - are more advanced than OS2005/770 so it's a different game, I think. Feb 23 22:52:35 it doesn't have to be a free for all flamefest. Though it's particularly good at that :) Feb 23 22:52:58 I've never used tmo being from the moblin side of the fence Feb 23 22:53:06 a forum is more like the all-capturing net - if there is no structured way to get info (bugs, brainstorm), it can be anything Feb 23 22:53:13 i would still be really interested in seeing tmo offer "Thanks only" views onto the threads Feb 23 22:53:33 jaffa, yeah itt was == official for a long time Feb 23 22:53:49 slaine_: It's got some growth problems with the popularity of the N900 - but being able to have a subset of sub-fora which show up in "New posts" has helped Feb 23 22:54:14 Jaffa: isn't it because w the smaller user-base power user = community member = developer? Feb 23 22:55:32 Amby: It's a vicious (or virtuous depending on how successful you are) circle. Without developers, you don't get apps so you don't get users. But with more users you get more developers. Feb 23 22:55:53 Amby: So yes, when a platform's smaller you need to be pretty committed to be a user, because it won't do much. Feb 23 22:56:09 see Moblin :) Feb 23 22:57:07 I find it somewhat natural that with high traffic different uses separate more (e.g. end-user, community, developer) Feb 23 22:57:47 Amby: But "community" isn't a use. It's a side-effect, a by-product, an emergent property. Feb 23 22:58:08 Amby: Moblin's had a developer community and random users popping up occasionally to ask for install help (AFAICT). Feb 23 22:58:48 think how many developers ask for install help for us Feb 23 22:58:50 This can lead to developer navel gazing, continual reinvention and never actually delivering something users want Feb 23 22:59:34 hmm... "continual reinvention?" Feb 23 22:59:44 man, I'm bunched Feb 23 22:59:46 I meant community contributors wanting different channels than end-users Feb 23 22:59:52 time to call it a night and have some sleeps Feb 23 23:00:09 catch you all bright and early tomorrow ;) Feb 23 23:01:04 ali1234: Many developers often find it enticing to throw everything away and start again (hell, I recognise it in myself far too often - and *definitely* in my teams and *many* open source proejcts). The second system is almost certainly so generic it can do anything. And so, nothing. Feb 23 23:01:26 Jaffa: but i don't see what that has to do with forums... Feb 23 23:02:01 and i certainly don't see how that was a worse problem for moblin than it was for maemo Feb 23 23:02:09 * lbt thought he saw Moblin subtext Feb 23 23:02:14 Amby: Yeah, but people are selfish - no-one starts out wanting to be a "community contributor" unless there's a community to contribute to - and there's rarely a "community commmunity" ;-) Feb 23 23:02:35 * lbt goes back to ldap hackery Feb 23 23:02:36 meta-community Feb 23 23:02:37 Jaffa: ubuntu has good meta-community... training people to triage, package etc Feb 23 23:02:39 ali1234: I was talking about if the space in which developers operate is hostile to end-users. Feb 23 23:02:39 oh, never buy a cheap wok Feb 23 23:02:42 what have I missed? Feb 23 23:02:53 sivang: cheap woks are good Feb 23 23:02:57 ali1234: But then there's a strong "Ubuntu" community. Feb 23 23:03:01 you burn oil on them Feb 23 23:03:04 lbt: I guess I'm a bad cook :) Feb 23 23:03:13 Jaffa: but it didn't happen by accident :) Feb 23 23:03:13 ali1234: And when did I say that Moblin suffered from reinvention worse than Maemo? Feb 23 23:03:18 lbt: It always gets burnt the first time I cook with it Feb 23 23:03:27 you need to cure it Feb 23 23:03:33 lbt: how ? Feb 23 23:03:34 burning things makes them better Feb 23 23:03:37 hehe Feb 23 23:03:37 Cheap aluminum or cheap cast iron? Feb 23 23:03:47 pour oil in and heat it up until it smokes Feb 23 23:03:49 GeneralAntilles: /me checks Feb 23 23:03:57 ali1234: Yes, and there are lots of integrated systems in Ubuntu (such as Launchpad) and the wide range of people who use ubuntuforums.org Feb 23 23:04:01 sivang, if you don't know, there's your problem. :P Feb 23 23:04:01 the cheap thin steel ones Feb 23 23:04:12 sivang, there's no such thing as a "good" wok that isn't cast iron. :P Feb 23 23:04:25 and there's no such thing as "cheap" cast iron. *g* Feb 23 23:04:34 after the smoke clears the burnt residue is quite useful Feb 23 23:04:45 * lbt looks at Maemo..... Feb 23 23:04:48 lbt, better to do it in the oven Feb 23 23:04:54 Since you'll get a better cure. Feb 23 23:04:56 GeneralAntilles: right! so it is aluminium "foil" :-p with very cheap teflon coating. Feb 23 23:05:00 never tried that GA Feb 23 23:05:06 lbt, really? Feb 23 23:05:12 not oven Feb 23 23:05:12 lbt, what do you season with? Feb 23 23:05:20 just oil/salt Feb 23 23:05:21 lbt: hehe Feb 23 23:05:26 lbt: pun intended? Feb 23 23:05:26 What oil? Feb 23 23:05:29 Jaffa: i would say that moblin has no problems with reinvention when compared to maemo Feb 23 23:05:30 lbt: re: maemo Feb 23 23:05:30 rapeseed Feb 23 23:05:32 * Jaffa 's points are: 1) lots of developers start as users - i.e. they buy a device - and then want to scratch an itch. You need a migration path. 2) developer resources which are overly hostile to end-users don't get valuable (and useless) feedback. Feb 23 23:05:38 Interesting Feb 23 23:05:51 ali1234: Again, when did I say that Moblin suffered from reinvention more than Maemo? Feb 23 23:05:53 * lbt looks at Jaffa's comment and then a mirrot Feb 23 23:05:55 r Feb 23 23:06:07 I didn't even *mention* EITHER when talking about reinvention. Feb 23 23:06:08 Jaffa: you didn't. you implied that moblin suffered from reinvention problems. Feb 23 23:06:10 * CosmoHill wonders if Meego would work with this: http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/info_1455.html Feb 23 23:06:10 I never could get a good cure out of canola back before I stopped using it. Feb 23 23:06:11 Jaffa: that's why I'm gonna start a user story issue tracker Feb 23 23:06:21 sivang: it did didn't it? Feb 23 23:06:33 lbt: what? Feb 23 23:06:35 lbt: what did ? Feb 23 23:06:39 moblin ubuntu, moblin rpm, moblin meego Feb 23 23:07:06 ali1234: Meh. Whatever. It probably does. Nokia definitely has with Maemo multiple times, and *definitely* with MeeGo. Feb 23 23:07:07 good that the issue was recognised + addresssed Feb 23 23:07:36 ali1234: Reinvention is sometimes necessary if you don't get the traction envisaged. Feb 23 23:07:38 I had some +ve comments earlier Jaffa Feb 23 23:07:43 Jaffa: but here's the thing. ubuntu forums contributes very little to ubuntu overall. it certainly isn't where most developers start out Feb 23 23:07:50 re having CPAN in meego Feb 23 23:08:25 What percentage of the top-50 contributors to maemo.org started out on Talk/itT I wonder. Feb 23 23:08:26 and that attitude/intent seems to address my upstream concerns to a degree Feb 23 23:08:30 But then you've got apps like Mauku which reinvent themselves so totally to support any use case they don't meet any well. Or countless other over-engineered systems. Feb 23 23:08:55 GeneralAntilles: good Q Feb 23 23:08:56 ali1234: true, and the users stories there are mostly neglected unless ubuntugeek gets them and files specs or bug reports, which I don't know when was the time he did Feb 23 23:09:03 lbt: Cool. Feb 23 23:09:14 "Do one thing, and do it well" (tm) Feb 23 23:09:21 Jaffa: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group#Contributors Feb 23 23:09:28 indeed, the ubuntu forums seem to exist only because people expect them to exist Feb 23 23:09:35 although I want to change the spec on that Feb 23 23:10:32 ali1234: Fair enough. Maemo's forum operates differently. The PalmOS and EPOC ones I've been involved in worked more like the Maemo one than the Ubuntu one then. Feb 23 23:10:59 Of the first 2 pages of top contributors (60 users), approximately 30 originated from Talk/itT. Feb 23 23:11:04 I wonder if MeeGo needs a universe Feb 23 23:12:13 GeneralAntilles: Looking through the first page, almost all of the 30 are active/very-active on tmo AFAICT Feb 23 23:12:32 wasn't quite the question Feb 23 23:12:34 Jaffa, yeah, the activity level for nearly all of them is high. Feb 23 23:12:39 lbt: Indeed. Feb 23 23:13:08 added this to the Repo group: Package the world: Meego plans to be a 1st class distro and should not prevent packages from being made available. Cf MeeGo:Universe and MOTU Feb 23 23:13:17 lbt: So it doesn't matter where you've come from, the most active contributors to Maemo are also (in addition to doing other stuff) active in the forums Feb 23 23:13:45 or at least the karma says that :) Feb 23 23:13:50 GeneralAntilles: Of course, those of us who joined ITT back before the 770 went on sale had nowhere else to go ;-) Feb 23 23:13:54 * lbt looks up tautology Feb 23 23:13:58 Jaffa, true enough. Feb 23 23:13:58 lbt: yeah yeah Feb 23 23:14:15 * lbt looks up xkcd Feb 23 23:14:23 lbt: I'm the president of the tautology club beca... yeah Feb 23 23:14:47 * lbt looks up interru Feb 23 23:15:13 lbt: However, I hope you'd agree that the top 30 add value to Maemo, rather than just chatting on a forum. Feb 23 23:15:15 what percentage of nokia developers are active on tmo? and if you include them in your list of "most active contributors" - how does it look then? Feb 23 23:15:17 +++ATH Feb 23 23:15:23 oh yes Feb 23 23:15:29 and on an open project, why draw a line between them, and "community" Feb 23 23:15:33 MeeGo - http://meego.com/ | Web coordination meeting @ 20:00 UTC February 24th in #meego-meeting | FAQ http://meego.com/about/faq | This channel is logged, see them at http://mg.pov.lt/meego-irclog/ | http://wiki.meego.com/Whos_who - add yourself and help facilitate communication and work Feb 23 23:15:36 Oops Feb 23 23:15:46 Damn Feb 23 23:15:50 Stskeeps! Feb 23 23:15:55 ali1234: Many Nokia developers are; not enough. Long standing complaint. Feb 23 23:16:17 why should it be a complaint? how many ubuntu devs do you think post on ubuntu forums? Feb 23 23:16:45 Active anywhere in maemo.org. Feb 23 23:16:50 ali1234: Nokia is part of the Maemo community; many Nokia employees are part of the Maemo community. Many Nokia developers are not and work 9-5 on a project without ever talking to anyone except their colleagues. Feb 23 23:16:57 opensource development == develop in the open Feb 23 23:17:12 Jaffa: indeed. there has to be a in between point Feb 23 23:17:25 they need to realise their colleagues don't all sit at desks in Hel Feb 23 23:17:30 Jaffa: and that doesn't necessarily mean getting everyone on the forum Feb 23 23:17:40 ali1234: The complaint, as GeneralAntilles says, was they weren't active anywhere. Not on the mailing lists for technical discussion of problems; not in Bugzilla for their products; not talking about their plans. Feb 23 23:17:42 * GeneralAntilles expects MeeGo may reduce progress on bug #630 in some ways. Feb 23 23:17:59 ali1234: Where did I say it did? Can you stop saying that that's what I'm suggesting. Feb 23 23:18:50 Jaffa: well your original question was composed around developer/community relations in terms of community forums Feb 23 23:19:57 ali1234: Yes. Because Nokia's community manager was suggesting that trying to keep developers and non-developers separate was going to be a Good Thing - in the context of forums. Feb 23 23:20:21 Nokians are in for a culture shock. Feb 23 23:20:45 ali1234: There are lots of other places where having developers/non-developers separate is also bad. There are lots of ways of contributing and being involved in a project without being a prolific user of a forum. Feb 23 23:20:50 S60 people should suffer for abusing the platform so. Feb 23 23:20:50 Jaffa: you disagree? Feb 23 23:20:52 Not of these things is in doubt. Feb 23 23:21:02 s/Not/None/ Feb 23 23:21:04 Jaffa: in context of forums - that is what all open source projects do Feb 23 23:21:04 Jaffa meant: None of these things is in doubt. Feb 23 23:21:23 * lbt thinks users should not be allowed in -dev Feb 23 23:21:42 power-users may look Feb 23 23:21:46 http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=991465&l=cedff446c8&id=1066422499 Feb 23 23:21:54 proto-devs are welcome to be quiet Feb 23 23:22:43 lbt: I don't disagree - but people don't stay in neatly defined buckets, even if you can start them off like that. Feb 23 23:23:11 Isn't that the basis of open source - start of as a user, find an itch and scratch it. Suddenly you're now a contributor and git has better docs ;-) Feb 23 23:23:26 yep - role based Feb 23 23:23:27 Bah. Typo city. Feb 23 23:23:37 role is based on quality of communication Feb 23 23:23:45 Hopefully no docs from Jaffa. :P Feb 23 23:23:48 meh, i stopped being a "user" long before i started using open source Feb 23 23:24:07 The problem with these discussions is that everybody seems to define "user" differently. Feb 23 23:24:12 ali1234: Then we're approaching this discussion from a different definition of "user". Feb 23 23:24:31 I think the 'someone' can change roles from email to email (or post) Feb 23 23:24:41 or to put it another way, i got the itch a long time before maemo even existed Feb 23 23:24:42 and explaining what sort of "user" one or another person is talking about never seems to help. Feb 23 23:25:09 I'm a senior architect at a software company at the moment. And started off as a Maemo user when a developer at one of the largest IT companies on the planet whilst having been a "developer" of some quality for about 20 years. Feb 23 23:25:20 i'm still trying to scratch it... haven't managed yet though Feb 23 23:25:23 woohoo Feb 23 23:25:27 However, I bought a device which promised to do some exciting things for me as a user. Feb 23 23:25:35 ali1234: lotion ? Feb 23 23:25:42 aw Feb 23 23:25:43 Just because I'm a developer at work doesn't necessarily mean that I'm a developer in everything I do. Feb 23 23:25:45 sivang: open sores :) Feb 23 23:25:51 hehe Feb 23 23:25:53 my ldap worked and then failed :( Feb 23 23:26:11 lbt: Which LDAP server? Feb 23 23:26:17 slapd Feb 23 23:26:21 * Jaffa shudders. Feb 23 23:26:25 via ruby Feb 23 23:26:26 i must have missed the part where maemo promises to do shiny things for the user Feb 23 23:26:42 slapd is nice Feb 23 23:26:52 surely the whole selling point is that you can hack on it? Feb 23 23:26:54 ali1234: This is my point. Every user is different. Every user's use cases are different. Feb 23 23:27:00 * lbt made slapd talk kerberos Feb 23 23:27:24 mmm tickets Feb 23 23:27:32 mmm Feb 23 23:28:00 should we have a meego meetup now? Feb 23 23:28:00 lbt: You've reminded me I've got to revamp our LDAP code at some point :-/ Feb 23 23:28:56 lbt: the x86 vmdk image of mer does include hildon ? Feb 23 23:29:38 lbt: is there a schedule for the meeting? Feb 23 23:29:56 VLJ: yes Feb 23 23:30:16 sivang: dunno - there was a maemo meetup due in feb-ish iirc Feb 23 23:30:24 I may have missed it Feb 23 23:30:52 Intel and Nokia should sponsor a day meetup in London with free drinks Feb 23 23:30:56 hildon does not include any aesthetic effect such as compiz ? Feb 23 23:31:02 correct Feb 23 23:31:27 VLJ: which release of Mer? Feb 23 23:31:32 0.16 Feb 23 23:31:41 *nod* Feb 23 23:31:54 .17 has some movement towards GL stuff Feb 23 23:32:30 how is it in maemo ? Feb 23 23:32:41 fremantle? Feb 23 23:32:45 yes Feb 23 23:32:58 it doesn't use compiz as such Feb 23 23:33:01 i though it had some nice visual effect Feb 23 23:33:05 but there is compositing etc Feb 23 23:33:10 it does use clutter a lot Feb 23 23:33:15 ok Feb 23 23:33:54 hildon implementation in maemo is not open source ? Feb 23 23:34:14 well... Feb 23 23:34:22 the problem is the closed dependencies Feb 23 23:34:29 Mer is about resolving them Feb 23 23:34:36 using open components Feb 23 23:35:03 and hildon in maemo rely on closed dependencies ? Feb 23 23:35:13 for sure at some levels Feb 23 23:35:20 in general it's open Feb 23 23:35:28 but actually building it... Feb 23 23:35:37 and hildon in mer is not the same as in maemo ? Feb 23 23:36:00 I mean hildon in mer 0.17 is not the same as hildon in fremantle ? Feb 23 23:36:17 0.17 used fremantle source Feb 23 23:36:54 * lbt checks where we are... Feb 23 23:36:55 "used" in the past ? Feb 23 23:37:34 in the run up to 0.17 was the first time we grabbed any fremantle code Feb 23 23:39:47 hmm we're on testing11 still Feb 23 23:40:19 OK ... bedtime Feb 23 23:40:33 see you Feb 23 23:45:59 can someone please oh mighty please help login to the wiki? Feb 23 23:46:05 or at least help me find out what's wrong? Feb 23 23:47:11 sivang, do you have a meego.org account ? Feb 23 23:50:09 sivang: did you try logging into the main page, not the wiki? Feb 23 23:50:46 i couldn't log in if i tried via the wiki, but could log in via the main page, then edit Feb 23 23:53:35 jebba, you need(ed) to confirm your email again when you log in the wiki with you meego.org account o_0 Feb 23 23:55:36 jebba: yes Feb 23 23:55:39 VDVsx: yes Feb 24 00:00:31 hi all Feb 24 00:00:39 hey Feb 24 00:14:23 I give up. Feb 24 00:14:36 Hopefully wiki/CMS integration will be fixed by tomorrow. Feb 24 00:15:02 hehe Feb 24 00:15:59 CosmoHill: what? Feb 24 00:16:05 CosmoHill: you don't think it is going to be fixed? :) Feb 24 00:16:05 * CosmoHill shurgs Feb 24 00:16:09 a hammer? Feb 24 00:17:15 casual violences can solve a lot of things Feb 24 00:22:55 CosmoHill: let's hope we don't need to get so low :) Feb 24 00:23:09 hehe Feb 24 00:27:55 is there an official meego forum up anywhere yet? Feb 24 00:28:12 somewhere Feb 24 00:39:48 night night Feb 24 00:39:58 * CosmoHill ponders how he ended up in 5 channels Feb 24 02:18:50 hello Feb 24 02:19:24 Texrat: hey Feb 24 02:19:29 hey Feb 24 02:19:33 is Jaffa on? Feb 24 02:19:36 I've no idea Feb 24 02:19:40 Jaffa: you on? Feb 24 02:19:44 hopng he would ;) Feb 24 02:19:59 :) Feb 24 02:20:12 I'm just amazed that tab completion worked like it should :) Feb 24 02:20:19 trying to have a presentation ready for meego meeting tomorrow Feb 24 02:20:30 tab completion? Feb 24 02:20:31 ah, cool Feb 24 02:20:33 yeah Feb 24 02:20:35 irc client Feb 24 02:20:42 I'm rusty at irc Feb 24 02:20:47 been a while Feb 24 02:20:55 welcome back then. :) Feb 24 02:21:00 thanks ;) Feb 24 02:21:05 * solarion is also solarion on t.m.o Feb 24 02:21:13 where is this meego con? Feb 24 02:21:26 #meego-meeting I believe Feb 24 02:21:34 20:00 UTC tomorrow Feb 24 02:21:53 ah, thanks Feb 24 02:22:07 2pm CST? Feb 24 02:22:31 heck I forget the conversion Feb 24 02:23:20 ok someone test this pdf link Feb 24 02:23:23 http://maemo-daemons.org/MeeGo_User_Experience_Framework.pdf Feb 24 02:24:33 "Enhancing, capturing and leveraging the MeeGo device user experience Feb 24 02:24:43 ok cool Feb 24 02:24:53 is this gonna be webcasted or something? Feb 24 02:24:54 still needs work but it will do for now Feb 24 02:24:57 naw Feb 24 02:25:03 or do you post it and we follow along on irc? Feb 24 02:25:05 I'm just gonna have the link ready Feb 24 02:25:21 I don't know if I'll have a chance to bring it up, but I want to be ready Feb 24 02:25:43 in a week or so I should have the whole thing done, then I'll share it out Feb 24 02:26:36 ok gotta go Feb 24 02:26:38 later Feb 24 02:50:15 hi **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 24 03:00:02 2010