**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 24 03:00:02 2010 Feb 24 03:13:44 back Feb 24 03:20:57 hello Feb 24 07:23:47 Good morning Feb 24 07:23:56 moin Feb 24 07:48:18 morning peopl Feb 24 07:48:19 e Feb 24 07:49:23 morning Stskeeps Feb 24 08:01:31 o/ Feb 24 08:37:18 morning all Feb 24 08:41:25 ahoi Feb 24 08:41:30 ahoop Feb 24 08:42:34 morning ! Feb 24 08:46:47 man, I need some wakeup juice Feb 24 08:47:26 * gladiac prefers coffee to wake up Feb 24 08:49:44 morning qgil Feb 24 08:59:28 qgil_: thanks for gtk+ reply, clears things up Feb 24 09:00:33 link? :) Feb 24 09:01:03 http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00010.html Feb 24 09:02:13 Stskeeps: appreciated :) Feb 24 09:03:49 I hope the interest in having GTK+ well supported in MeeGo (as seen in many comments last week) comes together with a word from the maintainers Feb 24 09:04:55 Stskeeps: follow-up http://mail.gnome.org/archives/mobile-devel-list/2010-February/msg00012.html Feb 24 09:06:25 Yeah, absolutely - while i personally have zero interest in using gtk+, it would be a hit against the whole freedom ideal if it was lost somewhere along the way Feb 24 09:07:47 imo it is not at all related to software freedom Feb 24 09:08:23 muep: no - it's related to developer freedom :) Feb 24 09:08:48 The freedom to choose whatever software development tools you want, while still being able to make something that looks like it belongs :) Feb 24 09:11:09 to my knowledge, GTK+ in Moblin (and presumable MeeGo) is stock GTK+, so I'd imagine it's a case of keeping abreast with upstream per release. Feb 24 09:11:59 while maemo gtk is a mutated beast, to say it gently Feb 24 09:12:00 leinir: sure, but useful software freedom comes together with good software maintenance Feb 24 09:12:14 and this is why I'm asking about plans to sync GTK+ 'flavors', find out the plan for Hildon, etc Feb 24 09:12:20 Stskeeps: hmm, true Feb 24 09:12:44 Does Hildon patch GTK+ ? Feb 24 09:13:05 How easy is Qt for people who've never used c++, but are ok with c? Feb 24 09:13:17 benbrown: Well... How's your OOP knowledge? :) Feb 24 09:13:35 slaine_: Don't think so, if I understand it correctly then Hildon's a layer on top of GTK Feb 24 09:13:35 benbrown: do you mean "ok with c + gobject"? Feb 24 09:13:43 slaine_: yes Feb 24 09:14:00 not really used much OOP. Feb 24 09:14:19 slaine_: in concept hildon doesnt rely on maemo gtk, but in practice it does Feb 24 09:14:20 well, Qt is easy for pretty much everybody Feb 24 09:14:22 done a tiny bit with some perl stuff Feb 24 09:14:31 benbrown, learn some C++, if you're good at C it won't be a huge leap Feb 24 09:14:44 just a second... Feb 24 09:14:49 I tend to program in C++ as C + Classes Feb 24 09:14:49 I'm not awesome at C, but I'm fairly competant and getting better Feb 24 09:15:09 But that's because 99% of the time I code in C Feb 24 09:15:10 if you know C, you know nothing yet... GObject is a whole universe of its own Feb 24 09:15:37 lol villemv Feb 24 09:15:38 There a good place to start reading up on it? Feb 24 09:15:43 it's a universe of PAIN! ;) Feb 24 09:15:44 C => Qt & C++ is easier than C => GObject IMO Feb 24 09:15:47 GObject or C++ ? Feb 24 09:15:53 GObject of course Feb 24 09:15:54 or are you being overly dramatic ;) Feb 24 09:16:00 slightly Feb 24 09:16:03 benbrown: yup, right here: http://doc.qt.nokia.com/4.6/index.html <-- in particular the Getting Started bit in the top left corner :) Feb 24 09:16:33 I'll give that a try later, at work now so probably should get some done ;) Feb 24 09:16:39 you can do OOP with C, it's more convoluted than with C++. GObject Feb 24 09:16:46 is C with OOP Feb 24 09:17:26 "you can TRY TO do OOP with C" there, i fixed it for you ;) Feb 24 09:17:58 uahah, gobject is so ugly Feb 24 09:18:25 I understood that GObject implements more dynamic object model than for example C++ does Feb 24 09:18:42 GObject has a two-pass construction mechanism Feb 24 09:18:57 you can't have that with stock C++ (but you can if you stop using new) Feb 24 09:19:43 I think their docs say that a lot of the complexity comes from the intention to ease interoperability with different programming languages Feb 24 09:19:49 solarion: pong Feb 24 09:19:55 and of course you can use GObject from C++ if you feel attraction to the pain Feb 24 09:20:11 I'm new to all this gui stuff. I'm finding GTK+ to be a pain in the ass. Feb 24 09:20:24 the problem is that C casts don't check for validity. C++ static_cast check that you can do it. Feb 24 09:20:44 C++ also closes the "void star loophole" Feb 24 09:20:58 benbrown: did you use a gui builder (glade) with gtk+? Feb 24 09:21:07 no. might be where I was going wrong Feb 24 09:21:10 benbrown: you could also get the 2nd edition of the programming with Qt4 book. 1st edition is free online: http://www.qtrac.eu/C++-GUI-Programming-with-Qt-4-1st-ed.zip Feb 24 09:21:17 did it all in vim Feb 24 09:21:44 benbrown: it's certainly a huge new API at first (same holds for qt) Feb 24 09:21:46 Yes, i can definitely vouch for that book - very easily red, and brilliant introduction :) Feb 24 09:23:05 qgil_: whens the MeeGo community meeting scheduled for ? Feb 24 09:23:21 benbrown: as regards gobject don't pay too much attention to the gripes Feb 24 09:23:35 slaine_: 20 UTC i think Feb 24 09:23:39 slaine_: 20:OO UTC today Feb 24 09:23:41 robsta: "never mind that bullet coming at you"? ;-) Feb 24 09:23:49 And will it be here ? Feb 24 09:23:51 Where's gobject fit in? Feb 24 09:24:01 does qt sit on top of it? Feb 24 09:24:04 no Feb 24 09:24:07 gtk sits Feb 24 09:24:10 Qt is of itself Feb 24 09:24:22 GTK+ and Qt are two different toolkits Feb 24 09:24:39 ahh ok. Feb 24 09:24:40 From which Gnome and KDE sprotted as two different DE's Feb 24 09:24:51 GTK+/Gnome, Qt/KDE Feb 24 09:25:07 yeah I knew that bit, just unsure on the nuts and bolts Feb 24 09:25:20 benbrown: gobject is a C infrastructure, if you write your library with it you can easily use that library from a variety of programming languages like python, javascript, ... Feb 24 09:25:50 benbrown: writing applications with C/gobject is not really recommended these days Feb 24 09:25:56 ahh right Feb 24 09:26:08 it's just that so many people have gotten used to it over the years Feb 24 09:26:09 GTK+ is built ontop of glib and glib has portability layer in there with the likes of gchar, gint etc. There's also higher level abstractions like GList and the daddy of them all GObject Feb 24 09:26:30 Everything on GTK+ is based on a GObject. Feb 24 09:26:31 benbrown: read "not recommended if you are new to it" Feb 24 09:27:17 robsta, if you want to do lowlevel stuff though, you kinda have to know it Feb 24 09:27:37 Implementing custom clutter actors etc. Feb 24 09:27:37 slaine_: what do you mean? Feb 24 09:27:40 ah Feb 24 09:28:08 can you poke custom clutter actors into hildon-dekstop? Feb 24 09:28:29 afaik Feb 24 09:28:45 via clutter-gtk I'd imagie so Feb 24 09:29:05 Wasn't that how the launcher on the n900 was done ? Feb 24 09:29:05 so there is a plugin system that loads them to the hildon-dekstop process? Feb 24 09:29:18 slaine_: http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-website-irc-meeting Feb 24 09:29:23 they are explicitly loaded plugins I think Feb 24 09:29:30 dunno if you can add your own Feb 24 09:29:35 excellent, thanks qgil_ Feb 24 09:29:38 slaine_: yes, writing actual apps in clutter is a chapter of its own Feb 24 09:29:49 It's lots of fun though :-D Feb 24 09:29:56 and clutter is mostly n900 stuff Feb 24 09:30:08 not necessarily part of the glorious meego future Feb 24 09:30:10 * slaine_ <3 clutter Feb 24 09:30:14 X-Fade: you have op acceess in here if you want to change topic to advertise meeting Feb 24 09:30:50 Stskeeps: You do too, right? Feb 24 09:31:03 villemv: The hardest part of the MeeGo announcement for me and the stone tablet, erm, I mean architecture diagram was that Clutter/MX seems to have been pushed off to the side Feb 24 09:31:08 10:30 -!- Topic set by Stskeeps Feb 24 09:31:22 slaine_: for many of us Feb 24 09:31:37 * slaine_ hugs robsta Feb 24 09:31:57 X-Fade: yes, but i am in a car and topics dont turn well out when n900 is shaking :P Feb 24 09:32:59 slaine_: it also disappeared from faq Feb 24 09:33:13 at least mx Feb 24 09:33:14 the power of the wiki Feb 24 09:35:07 :P Feb 24 09:35:22 Dude ;) Feb 24 09:46:36 Where does the OBS build command get it's environment variables from for the chroot. The host system or the chroot packages ? Feb 24 09:51:40 slaine_: chroot Feb 24 09:51:56 some stuff is passed through Feb 24 09:51:58 that's even weirder then :( Feb 24 09:52:18 the objective is to setup a 'pure' chroot Feb 24 09:52:21 Does it build as user root or some other generated user ? Feb 24 09:52:34 in the chroot Feb 24 09:52:41 and any env set by the user for the build is passed through Feb 24 09:52:54 it runs as an anonymous user Feb 24 09:52:59 So PATH for example gets passed though ? Feb 24 09:53:04 no Feb 24 09:53:32 things like CFLAGS ovverrides maybe Feb 24 09:53:54 'cause the path seems to include /sbin and /usr/sbin which makes lots of the .src.rpm's fail (make install will create a /usr/share/info/dir which the spec files don't package) Feb 24 09:53:56 I know how it works fairly intimately for deb building.... less so for spec Feb 24 09:54:32 OK, I'd suggest that's a packaging issue though Feb 24 09:54:39 Oh indeed Feb 24 09:54:41 OBS does tend to pick up on niggles Feb 24 09:54:49 And one I pointed out over a year ago Feb 24 09:54:56 as it's a very very clean environment Feb 24 09:55:16 in Mer we had to polish a fair few maemo packages Feb 24 09:56:12 Obviously the Moblin guys are doing something that they've not documented to get around these problems Feb 24 09:56:19 Feb 24 09:56:42 where are you building? Feb 24 09:56:55 On a fedora 12 desktop Feb 24 09:57:24 ok, what OBS are you using Feb 24 09:57:48 so, fwiw mxr.moego.org/repo.moblin.org took a bit over 25 hours to index Feb 24 09:58:03 * timeless_mbp grumbles at the vm that's hosting moego being a bit slow Feb 24 09:58:22 lbt, http://moblin.org/documentation/building-moblin-packages-natively Feb 24 09:58:29 I followed that Feb 24 09:58:34 (it seems that it's using a kernel which is not xen friendly) Feb 24 09:59:32 slaine_: ah Feb 24 09:59:46 so that's like a manual run of the osc build cmd Feb 24 10:00:20 BTW the moblin.txt file is what gets downloaded each time you use 'osc' to build Feb 24 10:00:42 since it contains config stuff for the chroot that may change Feb 24 10:00:48 nod Feb 24 10:01:13 (well, not each time - the depends are done each time - other things are cached) Feb 24 10:01:58 hmm, the very end of that config file actually has commands that may well be the root cause of the problem Feb 24 10:02:26 timeless_mbp: Dude, it's meego, we've ben over this, M-E-E-G-O :) Feb 24 10:02:35 * tybollt runs and hides ;) Feb 24 10:02:40 tybollt: i'm waiting for mxr.meego.org Feb 24 10:02:46 slaine_: yes - that's the macro stuff Feb 24 10:02:53 until then, mxr.moego.org is what i've got Feb 24 10:03:05 I didn't use any of that in my deb building Feb 24 10:03:06 err i'm waiting for mxr.meego.com Feb 24 10:03:23 (and I can't tell which %s are macros and which are section headings) Feb 24 10:03:37 timeless_mbp: I think that's the spot on right there... it's a .com... says just about everything doesn't it? :-S Feb 24 10:03:49 tybollt: i was given mxr.maemo.org Feb 24 10:03:59 that's my point... Feb 24 10:04:03 i'm hoping to be able to get mxr.meego.com, i don't see why it should be different Feb 24 10:04:09 there is a transition from .org to .com Feb 24 10:04:11 maemo.org dns is owned by a .com Feb 24 10:04:24 ok, not a dot-com Feb 24 10:04:26 but a com Feb 24 10:04:32 (perhaps a .bomb?) Feb 24 10:04:37 but it is still meant to be an org Feb 24 10:20:27 Morning all Feb 24 10:20:37 Can someone please fix my Wiki login? Feb 24 10:20:48 I've been hitting my head on the desk since last night Feb 24 10:20:50 still no go. Feb 24 10:29:27 sivang: so Feb 24 10:29:35 you want to log in from meego.com, not the wiki Feb 24 10:29:45 the two things seem to have conflicting concepts of login Feb 24 10:29:51 the former works, the latter is just there to annoy you Feb 24 10:32:06 timeless_mbp: okay, let's try again. Feb 24 10:32:14 so, login to meego.com first, yes? Feb 24 10:32:18 yes Feb 24 10:33:53 timeless_mbp: right, done that. Feb 24 10:34:13 then go to the wiki, it should know who you are Feb 24 10:34:26 you can also try killing all your cookies for *meego* Feb 24 10:34:53 timeless_mbp: right, I should clear the cookies, wiki refuses to admit he knows me :) Feb 24 10:36:56 timeless_mbp: no go :...-( Feb 24 10:43:18 re Feb 24 10:44:11 still no informations from nokia/intel about how much components will be closed in meego? Feb 24 10:44:45 still no anything Feb 24 10:46:12 hrw: since meego is a platform for netbooks, handhelds etc it might depend on the actual device Feb 24 10:46:26 hrw: i wouldn't expect real info for a couple of months Feb 24 10:46:42 3-27 months perhaps :) Feb 24 10:47:58 timeless_mbp: was worth asking Feb 24 10:49:43 not really :) Feb 24 10:50:18 hrw: open source platform, possibly closed source hardware blobs, open kernel stuff, differentiation apps as far as i can hear Feb 24 10:50:21 :P Feb 24 10:51:15 Stskeeps: 'possibly'? Feb 24 10:51:23 definitely Feb 24 10:51:55 I'm not sure how that'll play either Feb 24 10:52:05 as Intel refused to ship binary drivers for Moblin Feb 24 10:52:14 This is intel we are talking about - mother of all things NDA Feb 24 10:52:58 "Hi, so you're employed at Intel? Is it fun working there?" -Sorry, you'll need to sign this NDA here, there and on the last page there, before I can talk to you. Feb 24 10:53:13 Stskeeps: you forgot about closed applications Feb 24 10:53:14 but selling your soul is fun for the whole family Feb 24 10:53:21 hrw: no, differentiation apps (closed) Feb 24 10:53:21 Stskeeps: >:D Feb 24 10:53:21 :P Feb 24 10:53:30 Stskeeps: good ol family fun! Feb 24 10:53:45 tybollt: totally unlike, say, google or apple Feb 24 10:54:10 robsta: do you think I own an iPhone bubba? :) Feb 24 10:59:32 I do, and I love it Feb 24 11:07:31 lbt: is there a way to get build to provide you with a shell into the chroot ? Feb 24 11:11:21 Is it just me or have things gone amazingly quiet since the end of last week Feb 24 11:11:36 The repo's for meego get turned off and all the devs have disappeared Feb 24 11:12:18 there's a thread on openness Feb 24 11:12:53 i think there's a lot of discussions going on, even though i wouldn't mind them being public, i do understand that they might need to have intense discussions nokia and intel.. Feb 24 11:13:10 yeah Feb 24 11:13:47 Stskeeps: maybe nokia wants to put some of their old crap from maemo5 base system into meego? :D Feb 24 11:15:37 qgil_: nice reply Feb 24 11:15:50 Stskeeps: you would think those discussions should've taken place prior to going all in w/ those two projects ... no? Feb 24 11:16:01 indeed, Feb 24 11:16:13 somewhat surprised at that Feb 24 11:16:32 When intel is involved - you can't be surprised... Feb 24 11:16:36 tybollt: you have to consider this move was probably very controversial Feb 24 11:16:47 It's clear that the Intel coders didn't know much about it and the same for the Nokia guys Feb 24 11:16:50 slaine_: well, I understand the concern but I hope people understand the situation Feb 24 11:17:09 That would explain the polar views of what MeeGo actually is Feb 24 11:17:10 slaine_: yes Feb 24 11:17:12 I like maemo. Never used moblin. I am biased as a debian user I guess Feb 24 11:17:15 hi qgil_ Feb 24 11:17:23 benbrown: and I'm the opposite Feb 24 11:17:28 Stskeeps: mind, I'm a chronic synic... I should just shut up really ;) Feb 24 11:17:32 and that's the case for everyone coming here Feb 24 11:17:40 i think the best thing is just for the 'blackout' to finish asap, and work on the community angle Feb 24 11:17:43 tybollt: those technical discussions on the architecture details, API, etc require a lot more people than the people that was involved on high level decisions prior to the launch Feb 24 11:17:45 and then join in the technical effort Feb 24 11:18:09 slaine_: build is a component of the obs stuff... there are some cute wrappers around it Feb 24 11:18:14 We all want something better than what we had. But we don't want to loose what we had either Feb 24 11:18:15 eg "osc chroot" Feb 24 11:18:28 lbt, I'll check out the other tools Feb 24 11:18:30 if we would have tried to involve everybody in order to make a perfect plan, that launch would have happened later, that plan would have leaked and now we would be anyway trying to deal with your uncertainty :9 Feb 24 11:18:40 +1 for "Everybody is willing to have this bootstrapping process completed, with Feb 24 11:18:41 all the common ground clearly exposed and publicly documented." Feb 24 11:18:51 slaine_: we're not fully setup - just expect it to get better with OBS/osc Feb 24 11:18:53 really important for future work Feb 24 11:19:29 qgil_: I appreciate that. and I think we all do. Your point about any open source project starting behind the scenes and then having a debut is accurate for me. Feb 24 11:19:30 and especially decisions made and decisions not taken but known should be discussed :P Feb 24 11:19:36 also, looking the practical aspect: Feb 24 11:19:47 look the deb/rpm discussion *over a decision made* Feb 24 11:19:58 now imagine that discussion *prior to a decision* Feb 24 11:20:01 all this "all will be well - RSN - we promise" makes me think of other successfull projects like oh... the Neo... for instance >:) Feb 24 11:20:10 democracy won't work Feb 24 11:20:17 and now imagine it again next to 101 parallel discussions about other aspects of the platform Feb 24 11:20:18 Design by committee never really works Feb 24 11:20:52 slaine_: design by mailing list may work, but humanity would die out before a consensus was reached ;) Feb 24 11:21:05 lol Feb 24 11:21:08 if you don't agree with the common ground proposed for MeeGo you will have several options: Feb 24 11:21:08 perhaps people want to be informed early, as opposed to just being able to vaice their opinion Feb 24 11:21:16 1. Ignore it and move somewhere else Feb 24 11:21:18 qgil_: maybe there was a discussion *because* the decision was already made and not explained technically, that's all Feb 24 11:21:23 And also, this is a commercial descision. It's not some hippy love in Feb 24 11:21:35 2. try to improve the aspects you are most concerned Feb 24 11:21:46 3. fork the project since at the end all the MeeGo code is open source Feb 24 11:21:53 slaine_: point in case! Feb 24 11:22:10 4. use the MeeGo infra to come up with the configuration with the components, API etc iof your choice Feb 24 11:22:12 slaine_: things are .com now, not .org (for good and for bad) Feb 24 11:22:14 Corsac: and mostly cos it wasn't a technical one, but an organisational one :P Feb 24 11:22:22 etc+ Feb 24 11:22:26 Stskeeps: definitely Feb 24 11:22:30 (which shows some degree of tunnel vision for people) Feb 24 11:22:50 Corsac: the MeeGo API is not defined today, and the discussion is technical Feb 24 11:23:08 som degree of? I'm in a tunnel w/ no light at the end of it stskeeps. Feb 24 11:23:13 Dui is not confirmed (or denied) as an API to be promoted to 3rd party developers, and the discussion is technical Feb 24 11:23:51 qgil_: 4 is worth stressing to people Feb 24 11:24:06 it gives reassurance that it's not "our way or the highway" Feb 24 11:24:19 which I think I see between the lines sometimgs Feb 24 11:24:24 aspects like "will QML be ready when?", "what about Orbit API?" etc are based on mostly technical discussion: will X be in good shape and when? Feb 24 11:25:03 lbt: you (and anybody) can help stressing these things. Feb 24 11:25:19 heh - will do now :) Feb 24 11:25:43 kinda more cautious about saying things now I work internally too Feb 24 11:26:13 mpf. Feb 24 11:27:14 Stskeeps: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group#Areas Feb 24 11:27:42 lbt: can be elaborated a bit Feb 24 11:27:49 want to stretch the definitions here Feb 24 11:27:49 source spec compatibility/alignment Feb 24 11:28:03 yes - was going to grab you+xfade etc Feb 24 11:28:07 to chat sometime Feb 24 11:29:01 and MOTU package will definitely need QA Feb 24 11:30:55 lbt, internal or external you have the most experience and can generally explain obs better and even tend to give people a good understanding once they finish chattin with you about it Feb 24 11:31:28 *nod* Feb 24 11:31:49 I'm hoping to publish some internal docs too Feb 24 11:32:06 great! Feb 24 11:32:30 until then just yell Feb 24 11:35:37 Oh, remember yesterday I said that Qt Creator was having performance issues on my netbook ? Feb 24 11:35:57 Well, that was when running on the battery, it went away when using power. Feb 24 11:36:23 And I know Qt-Creator isn't a benchmark for Qt performance on mobile devices Feb 24 11:37:26 However, I wrote my first Qt program, yay (the Hello MeeGo sample from Bob Spencer ) Feb 24 11:37:52 Is Qt Designer worth using or does it bloat code? Feb 24 11:38:01 benbrown: it's well worth using :) Feb 24 11:38:15 Rather, it depends on what you're doing, but in general yes :) Feb 24 11:38:18 Whats the diff between Qt Designer and Qt Creator ? Feb 24 11:38:39 slaine_: Qt Designer is the UI designer, and is embedded in Qt Creator :) Feb 24 11:38:50 slaine_: cool Feb 24 11:38:55 slaine_ Designer is a drawing too for UI and Creator is an IDE Feb 24 11:38:55 thanks Feb 24 11:39:06 Creator includes/embeds Designer Feb 24 11:55:35 qgil_: question can be: what is definition of 'meego code' Feb 24 11:56:44 qgil_: cause 'since at the end all the MeeGo code is open source' does not cover closed source apps which are already confirmed to be present in harmattan Feb 24 11:57:44 meego is a platform Feb 24 11:59:55 Stskeeps: moblin was a platform too but gave working system from that. what will meego give? console-image + qt but let user join it by himself? Feb 24 12:00:19 hrw: as far as i can tell it will give you a base environment Feb 24 12:00:42 as in, it will boot into a ui Feb 24 12:01:02 that's how i understand all the marketing talk at least :) Feb 24 12:02:32 and then vendors put apps on top and maybe service apis and so on Feb 24 12:02:43 if it's a base distro with connectivity and all that jazz, i'm happy :P Feb 24 12:03:08 hrw: MeeGo is platform + reference apps, all open source Feb 24 12:03:36 hrw: then device vendors (e.g. Nokia) can take those apps or not, and can add their own apps (open or closed) Feb 24 12:04:15 hrw: on top of this, specifically Harmattan will not map 100% the MeeGo platform, so it might be that there is still some closed middleware there (honestly, I don't know today) Feb 24 12:04:28 hrw: is it clear now? Feb 24 12:05:10 We're in for some confusion with Harmattan. . . . Feb 24 12:05:26 Stskeeps: "connectivity and all that jazz" is open in MeeGo Feb 24 12:05:30 qgil_: great :) Feb 24 12:05:38 * GeneralAntilles hopes conman will match ICD. Feb 24 12:07:00 GeneralAntilles: in a world of architecture diagrams without dealines, Nokia would have contributed already whatever needed to ConnMan (and oFono) to make them suitable for Harmattan Feb 24 12:07:23 GeneralAntilles: in the real world, though... (ask Patrik Flykt, Aki Niemi & co) Feb 24 12:07:40 qgil_: heya Feb 24 12:07:54 thiago: yo ma man! Feb 24 12:08:14 Did we pick a chair for the web meeting? Feb 24 12:08:37 thiago: I don't know how you manage producing all the stuff you produce, knowing all the stuff you know and still be present in new mailing lists and IRC channels Feb 24 12:08:50 qgil_: waiting for Qt to compile Feb 24 12:08:59 it takes 15 minutes :-) Feb 24 12:08:59 thiago: I can manage with new channels but only because I'm half as clever than you :) Feb 24 12:10:51 foo Feb 24 12:11:48 bared Feb 24 12:13:15 qgil_: yes, thanks Feb 24 12:15:11 * thiago installs MADDE Feb 24 12:15:34 hrw: sounds like we have some work to do in oe :-) Feb 24 12:19:41 florian: you mean "cp meego oe/recipes/" stuff? Feb 24 12:20:37 hrw: something like this... and "vi meego-image.bb" :) Feb 24 12:21:28 florian: first we need to wait half year for code drop Feb 24 12:21:49 florian: and I hope that repository admins will be from moblin/intel Feb 24 12:21:58 hehe Feb 24 12:29:53 qgil_: and still, he manages to be in half the phone conferences in the world. I know, I sit in his office ;) Feb 24 12:30:16 hhartz: I guess he even dares to go for lunch! Feb 24 12:30:43 * hhartz thinks there are thiago clones out there Feb 24 12:33:37 lunchbreak question: does MeeGo have a fire wall? Feb 24 12:34:01 against all the flamewars, it definately needs one Feb 24 12:34:31 GeneralAntilles: "So, forgive my skepticism." - sure, and I was expecting it Feb 24 12:34:56 GeneralAntilles: I just wanted to make sure that my silence was not understood as a concession :) Feb 24 12:35:29 Stskeeps: only girls hide behind firewalls (http://www.funnyaccidentblog.com/stories/how-one-hacker-hacked-his-own-computer) Feb 24 12:35:31 qgil_, btw sorry for disturbing you last week wwhile i was at mwc Feb 24 12:36:07 qgil_, they said i needed a nokia contact to get in the nokia building Feb 24 12:36:19 qgil_, quite honestly, the fragmentation from vendor-specific app stores is worrisome. Feb 24 12:36:27 hi zaheerm no problem, I just got that weird train in the communter train Feb 24 12:37:04 GeneralAntilles: devices are vendor specific Feb 24 12:37:33 GeneralAntilles: there is not one single supermarket providing bananas for everybody Feb 24 12:37:36 GeneralAntilles, i think it makes sense to have vendor specific appstores, as long as cost to push into multiple is not high (time, admin and price) Feb 24 12:37:40 I get the feeling that we're losing a lot of the advantages a unified mobile Linux platform can bring due to each vendor wanting to bring their own crap. Feb 24 12:37:56 qgil_, Android seems to manage it. Feb 24 12:38:11 GeneralAntilles, android has a bad experience because of it Feb 24 12:38:22 Really, Android's shared app market is the only thing keeping the platform cohesive. Feb 24 12:38:34 GeneralAntilles: the risk of a mess is there but there is also an opportunity for a more flexible setting really fitting the needs for developers, users and the rest of business involved in the industry Feb 24 12:39:10 Personally, as a consumer, I'd like to see MeeGo as bringing Maemo to a wider range of devices. Feb 24 12:39:12 GeneralAntilles: ask the Android-no-Google stakeholders their opinion Feb 24 12:39:30 GeneralAntilles, lots of comments, this doesn't work on nexus one or too slow on g1 or even worse, this app doesn't work until you root the device Feb 24 12:39:40 Especially since Nokia has been slowly drifting away from their existing customers. Feb 24 12:40:03 What do you mean, the people who used to buy rubber boots from them? ;) Feb 24 12:40:19 leinir, no, I mean people like me who aren't going to buy a capacitive device. Feb 24 12:41:30 Unfortunately Nokia seems very tied up in pushing their Ovi stuff to the detriment of MeeGo as a platform. Feb 24 12:42:38 GeneralAntilles: Nokia is putting a huge investment in MeeGo development that other competitors don't need to match when using MeeGo Feb 24 12:43:01 GeneralAntilles: it makes sense that Nokia tries to combine that investment with investment in other areas that define some difference with their competitors Feb 24 12:43:11 qgil_, I get the business perspective Feb 24 12:43:22 Unfortunately that perspective doesn't align with my needs as a customer Feb 24 12:43:30 I'd really like to give Nokia my money Feb 24 12:43:35 unfortunately it seems they really don't want it. Feb 24 12:43:38 GeneralAntilles: if the Ovi stuff s*cks then you can pick any other vendor going for vanilla MeeGo with decent hardware and a cheaper price Feb 24 12:44:03 or flash vanilla meego on a nokia product... Feb 24 12:44:51 GeneralAntilles: the question for Nokia (and anybody putting a mobile business together) is whether it is a good investment to concentrate on "your" needs Feb 24 12:45:11 In this particular case, my needs are pretty simple Feb 24 12:45:25 I want whatever the N900+1 device is with a resistive touchscreen. Feb 24 12:45:56 and, so, seemingly, do a lot of existing N900 customers. Feb 24 12:46:02 we have examples of other platforms and products that fit well specific needs... but at some point becase non-sustainable businesses Feb 24 12:46:28 But, whatever, that's all off-topic here. Feb 24 12:46:37 GeneralAntilles: do you have an estimate for the "lot of" number? Feb 24 12:47:16 * GeneralAntilles has found MeeGo is very good for sucking away his enthusiasm. Feb 24 12:47:34 What i want is a device with a capacitative touch screen, that i can use a proper stylus on Feb 24 12:48:02 leinir, unless it's a hybrid device no suck beast exists. Feb 24 12:48:08 s/suck/such/ Feb 24 12:48:09 GeneralAntilles meant: leinir, unless it's a hybrid device no such beast exists. Feb 24 12:48:18 GeneralAntilles: well, at least we should let things get started before our enthusiasm fades ;) Feb 24 12:48:40 Stskeeps, then I need to get moving fast. . . . Feb 24 12:49:03 GeneralAntilles: Well, when i say "proper stylus" i'd be fine with that stylus being something a bit odd, like the Wacom ones - and there is hope there, since they're actively working on something there :) Feb 24 12:49:12 GeneralAntilles: first meeting today, which is a start Feb 24 12:49:13 GeneralAntilles: what specifically bothers you from MeeGo that didn't bother you before MeeGo? Feb 24 12:49:26 Best of both world from where i'm sitting - finger control niftiness, plus wacom's brilliant stylus control :) Feb 24 12:51:04