**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 25 02:59:58 2010 Feb 25 04:25:07 hi from the commuter train Leppavaara - Helsini center :) Feb 25 04:25:32 gasp, "Helsinki" good morning Feb 25 04:26:25 Good morning Feb 25 04:26:44 the first thing I will do when reaching the office will be to blog a summary of the (very productive) meego.com website yesterday Feb 25 04:27:22 how are things going on #meego? hottest topics? anything I can help clarifying still? Feb 25 04:28:43 "meego.com website *meeting* yesterday" I mean Feb 25 04:29:27 (perhaps it's not such a good idea to log here right after my breakfast, with part of my brain still booting up) :) Feb 25 04:29:32 :) Feb 25 04:30:12 It's been rather quiet since midnight(Finnish) here Feb 25 04:30:49 jsa_ sounds like "progress" to me ;) Feb 25 04:30:58 Indeed :) Feb 25 04:31:18 Someone was asking about libdui, and where to talk about it / developing with it Feb 25 04:33:47 you can get in touch with the developers at http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=44562 Feb 25 04:34:40 As an application developer, I would wait before putting my time there, though Feb 25 04:35:21 but whoever is interested in the open development of these libraries please go on, try therm out, meet the developers etc Feb 25 04:40:52 (thinking out loud:) Feb 25 04:41:26 (a "problem" here and now can be that the current developers around MeeGo and even Maemo or Moblin Feb 25 04:41:55 are in a noticeable percentage 'old school' Feb 25 04:42:07 expecting apps with button, widgets etc Feb 25 04:42:15 running in native environment Feb 25 04:42:20 however Feb 25 04:42:46 mobile development trends are moving fast away from that Feb 25 04:43:15 into simpler apps either very graphical with own UI paradigms and styling Feb 25 04:43:31 or really simple with a couple of use cases to address Feb 25 04:43:53 that can be covered simply with e.g. a Web Runtime app Feb 25 04:44:29 so thing like libdui look now like very important to everybody Feb 25 04:45:00 when in fact 90% of developers perhaps don't need to go there and never will Feb 25 04:45:08 thoughts? Feb 25 04:46:30 I don't think we need another linux OS for mobile platform, sorry. Feb 25 04:48:06 suryasans: ok, which one would you pick, then? Feb 25 04:48:45 ubuntu based OD, I think. Feb 25 04:49:00 Oops, Ubuntu distribution Feb 25 04:50:00 suryasans and what happens to mobile use cases are secondary there and would imply different technology choices or pushing specific patches still not in mainline components etc? Feb 25 04:51:35 in practice, Ubuntu mostly integrates from Debian and ads little platform development on its own Feb 25 04:52:31 that is two levels of integration before you start your 'mobile integration" as a downstream of Ubuntu Feb 25 04:53:03 Canonical as the promoter of Linux is already well known. Feb 25 04:53:12 ubuntu has quite good community support for the end user Feb 25 04:53:28 but MeeGo handles a lot op upstream development, and for the crucial components for mobile use cases we are actually upstream, or very near from upstream Feb 25 04:54:53 Canonical and Ubunt Feb 25 04:55:44 sorry, let me enter the bujilding :) Feb 25 04:56:00 But, we must support the most established player than creating the new one. Feb 25 04:57:42 what does "most established player"? Feb 25 04:57:42 mean Feb 25 04:58:58 so we need to allow 6-12mo or even longer lag for fixing specific hardware problems and get patches through? problem with ubuntu is that is is quite far from upstream from hardware vendors viewpoint Feb 25 04:59:06 Linux distrubition is too fragmented, most of them is the spun off from another. I think we can use Ubuntu as the base for mobile Linux. Feb 25 04:59:07 hi from my (Ubuntu!) laptop :) Feb 25 04:59:40 Alright, Ubuntu has a nice bran (popularity) and they have an impressive community Feb 25 05:00:05 still, this doesn't help you if you want to develop a mobile platform with plenty of "own" developers Feb 25 05:00:26 Maintenance is the key. Don't build another one for your own ego. Feb 25 05:00:42 (and don't get me wrong, I love Ubuntu and defend it with my life and health) Feb 25 05:01:07 MeeGo is basically made by components that are maintained upstream + own components Feb 25 05:01:20 the maintenance of the own components is on our shouldders no matter what is the distro Feb 25 05:01:31 the maintenance of the upstream part has two sides: Feb 25 05:01:57 some upstream components are maintained by someone else completely, so no big different integrating them in MeeGo or in Ubuntu Feb 25 05:02:15 some upstream components have already heavy involvement of Intel and/or Nokia, so no big difference there either Feb 25 05:03:05 this is why I was asking what "established player" means Feb 25 05:03:24 Ubuntu is very visible from a user and Linux desktop fan point of view Feb 25 05:03:53 but have no doubt that Intel or Nokia (alone, leave alone combined) are much more established in Linux and freedesktop *development* Feb 25 05:03:59 which is the primary mission of MeeGo Feb 25 05:04:10 It is better we merged MeeGo to Ubuntu linux distribution. Feb 25 05:04:32 suryasans: do you know what Canonical thinks about this? Feb 25 05:05:45 mark hangs here, has anyone asked him? :-D Feb 25 05:06:09 Intel and Nokia are another technology partner for Canonical. Technically, it's possible to do that. Feb 25 05:07:39 and what if MeeGo needs primary attention to be a mainstream mobile platform, instead of being "another technology partner" for an otherwise "small" organization? Feb 25 05:07:51 Ubuntu is the first company who has dedicated for end user. Feb 25 05:07:57 do not underestimate the challenge of pushing a moblie agenda in a "desktop" grounded context Feb 25 05:08:00 Oops, canonical Feb 25 05:08:11 look the GNOME Mobile initiative inside GNOME Feb 25 05:08:24 I guess the Plasma/Netbook guys at KDE are in a similar situation Feb 25 05:09:03 imagine that a mobile agenda in a desktop-centri distro would bring changes or unstability in components that otherwise would be just fine and stable e.g. your UI toolkit Feb 25 05:09:20 That is why we must unified it under Ubuntu distrbution. A well known distribution better than creating multiple distrbution. Feb 25 05:09:31 either you spend a lot of energy convincing the "desktop guys" Feb 25 05:09:43 or you have to start forking to let everybody run forward Feb 25 05:09:57 but by forking you are starting to loose the benefits of being under a common umbrella Feb 25 05:10:22 Look at this page there is ubuntu mobile edition. http://www.ubuntu.com/products/mobile Feb 25 05:11:34 Even Ubuntu desktop version for ARM. http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/arm Feb 25 05:11:57 suryasans: yeah, I know Feb 25 05:12:17 do you know what technologies are they using to put up all that together? Feb 25 05:12:46 Unified interface could bring another chanche to make linux more favourable. Feb 25 05:12:49 do you think Ubuntu Mobile would be there without the work of Maemo and Moblin? Feb 25 05:13:21 Yes, I think Feb 25 05:13:35 I'm talking in concrete terms: technologies developed by Intel and Nokia Feb 25 05:13:45 Too many possibilites in Linux. Feb 25 05:14:02 but c'man Maemo and Moblin came before Ubuntu Mobile Feb 25 05:14:22 Ubuntu Mobile first used Nokia's Hildon, then OpenedHand/Intel's Clutter... Feb 25 05:14:33 not to dismiss the work Ubuntu does!! Feb 25 05:14:42 Yes, Intel and Nokia can push their own agenda, but with Canonical they can do that too. Feb 25 05:14:54 poor meego... users only see ubuntu and discut about deb vs rpm. long live meego Feb 25 05:15:00 I'm a very happy Ubuntu user, having collaborated with Canonical since before Ubuntu even existed Feb 25 05:15:37 suryasans: there is a difference. Intel and Nokia push their agenda with own developers working in concrete packages Feb 25 05:15:39 So, under one name is better, as ubuntu mobile, Feb 25 05:15:51 Ubuntu mostly integrated. They have some developers, but mostly integrate the work others have done Feb 25 05:16:02 which is a huge task, don't get me wrong Feb 25 05:16:08 and people is more familiar with one interface. Feb 25 05:16:16 ubuntu: http://xkcd.com/424/ and isn't it the mere truth?! Feb 25 05:16:21 which "people", mobile users? Feb 25 05:16:22 suryasans: not everything needs to be one distro Feb 25 05:16:27 suryasans: and that's good ... Feb 25 05:16:31 to each their own Feb 25 05:16:38 their own market, their own focus etc etc Feb 25 05:16:55 Yes, but people will be confused. This is Linux, and that is linux too. Feb 25 05:17:09 ..... Feb 25 05:17:15 oh come on. Feb 25 05:17:22 arjan_afk +1 Feb 25 05:17:29 suryasans: by that reasoning ubuntu should not have existed, they shuold have used red hat instead Feb 25 05:17:31 thing is there is no current ubuntu distro suitable for phones, one that is designed to use mainly (multi-)touch input and copes with the small screen (and resolution) size well Feb 25 05:17:40 let's hope meego will help solve this problem Feb 25 05:17:43 so how many mobile users are familiar with Ubuntu Mobile? (or Ubuntu vanilla, even) Feb 25 05:17:49 most people wouldn't care if their computer ran on mice, cheese and crayons Feb 25 05:18:01 morning all Feb 25 05:18:03 suryasans: it's very simple.. either meego is better, and then others can borrow Feb 25 05:18:10 or it's not better, and then it does not matter ;) Feb 25 05:18:10 Are there meeting minutes from last night's meeting? Feb 25 05:18:20 I was about to attend it but was ill so missed it :/ Feb 25 05:18:23 arjan_: yeah, at the end this is it Feb 25 05:18:44 Symbian is successful as mobile OS because many vendors are supporting it. Feb 25 05:18:54 it doesn't matter to them if it runs on ms, apple, linux or cheesecakes either Feb 25 05:19:01 not to be bad about it, but ubuntu is a project that focuses on integration, not so much tech development Feb 25 05:19:07 intel and nokia both do a lot of tech development Feb 25 05:19:15 and have been doing integration too Feb 25 05:19:18 we should focus on intergration Feb 25 05:19:24 so meego gets a lot of tech development AND integration now Feb 25 05:19:30 Abd android has fate like that. Meego is just another Linux distribution. Feb 25 05:19:32 that what'll make us good competitors to iPhone os. Feb 25 05:19:54 suryasans: meego is just another linux distribution. one with a LOT of developers behind it Feb 25 05:20:00 look at all the upstream work intel and nokia both do Feb 25 05:20:15 so, I didn't get any notifs from the Wiki, has anybody put meeting minutes somehwere? Feb 25 05:20:26 the move to put moblin and maemo is a great strategic move to counter android Feb 25 05:20:31 suryasans: are you saying Android won't catch up as Linux mobile platform because of Ubuntu? Feb 25 05:20:38 which means meego has a really good chance to get really good integration driving good tech development Feb 25 05:20:47 it will open meego up for much more platform, ie. developers Feb 25 05:20:58 But, meego must be handle by Canonical. Canonical has been proved to familiarize Linux to people. Feb 25 05:21:06 right now we only have a single expensive phone with maemo Feb 25 05:21:08 suryasans: I fail to follow your logic Feb 25 05:21:12 suryasans: why must that be ? Feb 25 05:21:15 suryasans: just curious, what is your involvement in Linux / free software projects? Feb 25 05:21:32 what's the connection between MeeGo and Canonical ? Feb 25 05:21:46 none Feb 25 05:21:47 (sorry to have dropped into the conversation like this) Feb 25 05:21:56 both are based on debian Feb 25 05:22:04 mook01: eh? Feb 25 05:22:11 mook01: but MeeGo uses RPM Feb 25 05:22:15 mook01: and OBS Feb 25 05:22:16 sivang: meego and canonical both are linux distributions Feb 25 05:22:17 maemo Feb 25 05:22:17 so how come? Feb 25 05:22:28 arjan_: eh? Feb 25 05:22:29 sivang: and I'm sure that canonical will borrow a lot of the meego technology from us Feb 25 05:22:30 arjan_: Canonical is a name of a company Feb 25 05:22:31 and that's fine Feb 25 05:22:43 i still have the hope they don't switch to moblin rpms ;) Feb 25 05:22:52 mook01: who Canonical LTD ? Feb 25 05:23:03 meego Feb 25 05:23:07 mook01: packaging formats are like giftwrap ;) Feb 25 05:23:13 you can argue for hours and hours about it Feb 25 05:23:23 but at the end of the day, it's all about the present inside, not the giftwrap Feb 25 05:23:28 right, after reading throughly the rationale behind RPMS, and knowing the current wonderful state of yum Feb 25 05:23:39 there's no ral difference between .debs and .rpms Feb 25 05:23:39 sivang: what makes you think meego is using yum?? Feb 25 05:23:54 but yeah the technical "just the format" does not really make a difference Feb 25 05:23:55 is this evolving into a packaging debate? alright, see you later - I'll go write the minutes of the website meeting yesterday :) Feb 25 05:23:56 arjan_: there's not a question, I can make it use yum if I want. Feb 25 05:24:05 hehe Feb 25 05:24:07 qgil_: Thanks Quim! Feb 25 05:24:16 this is not about packaging. that's boring and done ;) Feb 25 05:24:17 qgil_: have you discussed the working groups ? Feb 25 05:24:38 thos damn flus... Feb 25 05:24:55 I coughed like a swine yesterday so wasn't able to attend. Feb 25 05:25:13 sivang: we discussed http://wiki.meego.com/Community_website_meeting_2010_2_24 - for the impatient there must be a log somewhere (I need to find it too) :9 Feb 25 05:25:31 qgil_: if you need help in secertarying, let me know :-p Feb 25 05:25:43 wasn't the first version of meego (aka maemo 6) still supposed to be deb? Feb 25 05:25:59 mook01: AFAIK first version of MeeGo is not Maemo 6 Feb 25 05:26:08 mook01: is this written somewhere? Feb 25 05:26:25 people who are used to ubuntu (being the most popular distro currently) will be able to jump on meego much easier if there are tools like apt-get etc. Feb 25 05:27:10 * qgil_ or someone must convert http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=529073&postcount=14 in a wiki page mook01 Feb 25 05:27:10 mook01: there is more community development outside ubuntu , e.g. there are tons of apps that come as RPM and still don't have debs years after. Feb 25 05:27:49 one question: how many Ubuntu users are out there? Feb 25 05:28:39 qgil_: lots Feb 25 05:28:50 qgil_: you want this as a bullet wiki page? Feb 25 05:28:55 qgil_: I can do that. Feb 25 05:28:59 sivang: appreciated Feb 25 05:29:03 * sivang is on to it Feb 25 05:29:05 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distrowatch#Current_Distro_Statistics Feb 25 05:29:06 "lots" is not helpful :) Feb 25 05:29:07 mook01 does not worry you will have just to click for install any app .deb or .rpm. Feb 25 05:29:15 somewhat indicative Feb 25 05:29:18 qgil_: true :-) gartner probably have the rigth numbers Feb 25 05:29:42 qgil_: should I start a FAQ entry on the wiki ? Feb 25 05:29:48 Go to distrowatch to see the distribution marketshare. Feb 25 05:29:50 woah, you're still around qgil_! Feb 25 05:30:09 what i mean is, the more similar meego is to ubuntu the more people can take advantage of the community support Feb 25 05:30:20 th0br0: bo "still" but "already" Feb 25 05:30:26 ah ok qgil_ :) Feb 25 05:30:27 i found the ubuntuforums very useful for solving all those little problems Feb 25 05:30:42 * arjan_ found the ubuntu forums mostly have all the same question, very little answers Feb 25 05:30:46 better than support forums of any other distro i tried Feb 25 05:31:05 arjan_ +1 Feb 25 05:31:21 mook01: that page doesn't give any meaningful number Feb 25 05:31:32 well, i'm talking about the "normal" end user Feb 25 05:31:37 non techie one Feb 25 05:31:39 arjan_: ++ Feb 25 05:31:59 they do have the same questions Feb 25 05:32:02 mook01: the whole ubuntuforums, as useful as they are for desktop users, are basically useless for the users of a MeeGo based platform Feb 25 05:32:09 and I'm not talking about rpms Feb 25 05:32:11 but they get their answers too Feb 25 05:32:22 which is one reason why it is so popular Feb 25 05:32:25 desktop != phone Feb 25 05:32:25 but about form factor, UI toolkit, apps... the things all users hit Feb 25 05:33:04 mook01: the "normal" end user probably has never put their hands in any Linux distro Feb 25 05:33:29 anyway, my point is Feb 25 05:33:43 take the number of Ubuntu users (or the distro of your choice) Feb 25 05:34:17 and then think of the numbers of the Harmattan device + whatever Intel/Atom partners have in mind Feb 25 05:34:22 we don'0t know these numbers Feb 25 05:34:46 but believe me that it won't take long to match and probably pass them Feb 25 05:34:51 * arjan__ suspects the biggest linux user today is wireless access points ;) Feb 25 05:35:08 and this is only for Nokia/Intel and for this year Feb 25 05:35:08 qgil_: that's likely true even if you add them up rather than just pick one distro Feb 25 05:35:25 add more partners and add a couple of years more Feb 25 05:35:33 of course all this is only "plans" Feb 25 05:35:41 but are the plans of Intel and Nokia nonetheless Feb 25 05:36:10 good night all.. rpm vs deb is not a problem and i prefer a short optimized distr instead of ubuntu whos made a ugly coffe Feb 25 05:37:14 In my opinion, what's under the hood in fremantle is a mess. So it might actually be a good thing that they're changing to moblin core. Feb 25 05:37:33 MiXu-: do you mentioning an example? Feb 25 05:37:40 mind Feb 25 05:37:41 MiXu-: this "changing to moblin" isn't as much changing as converging Feb 25 05:37:45 can't give you accurate numbers, but check this: http://www.google.com/trends?q=ubuntu%2C+opensuse|suse%2C+redhat|fedora%2C+maemo|meego|moblin&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 Feb 25 05:37:54 MiXu-: maemo and moblin share about 80% of the common core already Feb 25 05:38:08 MiXu-: and the other 20% was relatively simple to converge Feb 25 05:38:21 it shows number of search requests for the distros, which should indicate relative user numbers Feb 25 05:38:24 (either it was a block that one of the two did not have, or it was where there was a clear better solution) Feb 25 05:39:30 I just hope we don't get into the stressful mode of community as Ubuntu has. Feb 25 05:40:17 I felt much better getting to know Maemo community and I hope MeeGo will be similar. Predicted release cycles are nice, but you have to cut back features if you don't want to kill your developers, mainatian stability Feb 25 05:40:27 and be able to promote true community invovlement. Feb 25 05:40:36 mook01: thanks that is an interesting link Feb 25 05:40:37 Ubuntu are slightly falling from there over the last 3 years.. Feb 25 05:40:49 feel free to add mint, debian etc. ;) Feb 25 05:41:21 so 9.10 was a big disappointment for me in terms of stability. I prefer checking emails on N900 then on Evo on 9.10 Feb 25 05:41:26 mook01: let me put it in the real MeeGo context: http://www.google.com/trends?q=ubuntu%2C+maemo|meego|moblin%2C+android%2C+iphone%2C+symbian&ctab=0&geo=all&date=all&sort=0 Feb 25 05:41:26 It just doesn't work. Feb 25 05:41:59 Is there any part of meego/maeme that uses network-manger? Feb 25 05:42:33 sivang: I'd expect http://connman.net/ Feb 25 05:42:40 sivang: a few months ago nokia and intel announced already to work together on connman Feb 25 05:42:42 MiXu-: no concrete examples? Feb 25 05:42:44 so yes meego uses connman Feb 25 05:43:21 qgil_: yay, anything but network manager that preents you from connecting just right when you are in a meeting and trying to demonstrate your web app Feb 25 05:43:31 sivang: hehe Feb 25 05:43:33 iphone is pushed by apples marketing dep Feb 25 05:43:47 mook01: so what? Feb 25 05:43:56 * sivang is pleased to see Nokia are dedicated to promoting Linux as a whole. Feb 25 05:44:01 maemo on the other hand was not, because for nokia it is still somewhat in test mode Feb 25 05:44:02 I keep getting mroe and more evidence for that :-) Feb 25 05:44:39 just trying to explain the iphone curve Feb 25 05:44:43 mook01: iPhone succeeds due to that, but also because it is superbly polished. Feb 25 05:44:59 anybody have an iPhone here? Feb 25 05:45:06 mook01: you said those curves reflect users, and I kind of agree with that Feb 25 05:45:12 qgil_: Well, take a look at the memory leaks and slowdowns on N900. That's pretty concrete. :) Feb 25 05:45:35 although it's not that true since there are plenty more Symbian users, but still the Internet relevance is much lower Feb 25 05:45:41 so you see how these numbers act :) Feb 25 05:45:43 Ubuntu is better because there are 13,5 million who use Ubuntu and its derivatives. Feb 25 05:45:45 mook01: N900 is an amazing first time attempt to release it as it is made :) Feb 25 05:46:06 suryasans: still so many bugs are left unanswered Feb 25 05:46:17 suryasans: and so manh usability issues are unaddressed. Feb 25 05:46:19 MiXu-: that is not concrete :) where are the components originating those leaks? Feb 25 05:46:24 "more it's not necessarily "better", but it means good support Feb 25 05:46:27 are they going to be substitued by Moblin comopnents? Feb 25 05:46:40 do you know whether Moblin components are leak-free? Feb 25 05:46:54 qgil_: they're likely all the same components anyway ; Feb 25 05:46:55 No, I don't know. Feb 25 05:47:04 Dell uses it as official preinstalled linux distribution. Feb 25 05:47:23 MiXu-: so for anything coming from Hildon there is no Moblin substitute coming Feb 25 05:47:26 suryasans: it seems you're repeating yourself a little in the last 5 minutes ;) Feb 25 05:47:28 I don't really believe and leak free componenets, it's the memory management that has to be smart ;) Feb 25 05:47:45 and for anything under Hildon, the chances of Moblin and Maemo using basically the same technologies are high Feb 25 05:47:47 sivang: fixing leaks is important. which means having good tools to find leaks ;) Feb 25 05:47:52 qgil_: Isn't hildon gonna be dropped anyway and replaced with directui? Feb 25 05:47:53 and Qt is actually very nice Feb 25 05:47:56 arjan__: there are :) Feb 25 05:48:08 valgrind ? Feb 25 05:48:09 MiXu-: is dui a Moblin component? Feb 25 05:48:14 minor leaks become apparent very fast when there is not much RAM ;) Feb 25 05:48:17 valgrind, memprof, etc Feb 25 05:48:20 suaryasans: So ubuntu has 13,5 million users? Nokia sells more smartphones in a quarter. Feb 25 05:48:28 n900 has 256mb, dell netbooks have 1-2GB Feb 25 05:48:36 jsa_: :) Feb 25 05:48:40 Yeah, most of them are Symbian. Feb 25 05:48:44 qgil_: I don't know. But dui is not something that I'd say is "under the hood". Feb 25 05:48:47 leaks become more evident in a small ARM device than in your PC/laptop distro Feb 25 05:49:12 MiXu-: dui comes from the Maemo/Nokia team as well Feb 25 05:49:36 qgil_: do you think the response here is reasonable? I haven't tested on iPhone the same situation but my hunch is that this is handled gracefully Feb 25 05:49:40 Yeah, I know they're developing it but wasn't sure whether Nokia built it from scratch Feb 25 05:49:44 qgil_: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9089 Feb 25 05:49:46 Bug 9089: Upgrading Maemo itself (nokia official recommended upgrade) failed with "no enough space" on target device. Feb 25 05:49:47 I just wanted to dig in your sentence: "In my opinion, what's under the hood in fremantle is a mess. So it might actually be a good thing that they're changing to moblin core." Feb 25 05:49:47 suryasans: Yes, but which brand do you think is more capable of bringing linux to mainstream, Nokia or Ubuntu? Feb 25 05:50:07 jsa_: Nokia Feb 25 05:50:10 * arjan__ likes his n900 ;) Feb 25 05:50:11 IMHO Feb 25 05:50:22 Ubuntu, because it is not nokia. Feb 25 05:50:23 work (intel) had me try a few phones.. couldn't stand the others Feb 25 05:50:24 nokia, but only if they do the marketing right ;) Feb 25 05:50:25 qgil_: Yes. But dui has nothing to do with fremantle. :) Feb 25 05:50:41 MiXu-: nor with Moblin. btw http://qt.gitorious.org/maemo-6-ui-framework Feb 25 05:50:42 Nokia turned Israel to a Nokia country, not because of marketing, because of device quality Feb 25 05:50:43 Nokia is only a hardware vendor. Android will tronch Nokia. Feb 25 05:50:56 everybody knows Nokia boxes are toughest on the planet Feb 25 05:51:16 I'm using Nokia Symbian smartphone. Feb 25 05:51:18 sivang: they Just Work Feb 25 05:51:23 troll invasion? Feb 25 05:51:23 arjan__: and that Feb 25 05:51:24 I love my N900 as well. I'm not bashing the product. I'm just saying, having worked on fremantle that it's not all that pretty :) Feb 25 05:51:41 villemv: seems so Feb 25 05:51:57 It is better to unified Meego and Ubuntu, to be avaiable for other hardware vendors. Feb 25 05:52:03 MiXu-: I can assure you that we we dealth with importing packages from debian into ubuntu in october 2004, it was not pretty as well :-) Feb 25 05:52:05 as we're chatting about phones, has anyone tried/owned the 5800? thoughts? Feb 25 05:52:34 suryasans: Ubuntu has too much overhead in humane counter huiristics, I wouldn't want that to drain my N900 battery Feb 25 05:52:45 speaking about msg buses, too many deamons etc Feb 25 05:52:47 Mot people is familiar with Windows because every OEM is preinstalled the same package of windows. Feb 25 05:52:53 knowkeyah: It was ok when it was released. Haven't tried it since, so can't say how it compares to modern stuff. Feb 25 05:53:13 n900 drop test: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmSw5lHS1kA - oh yes he did! :) Feb 25 05:53:19 knowkeyah: cool music machine, very very robust and *tough* Feb 25 05:54:31 the only device that managed to eat some off nokia share in Israel is iPhone mainly due to its durability (not tough as a 5800, but tough enough) and uber polished OS, touch response and UI design. Feb 25 05:55:14 we have to do something about turning control in Maemo. Like port it from S60 off the N97 Mini, it is superb there. Feb 25 05:55:29 sivang: Ok. So maybe the ugliness is something that just belongs in the process ;) Feb 25 05:56:25 MiXu-: not to mention security review......Geesh I don't want to recall that. Feb 25 05:56:31 "modern stuff", heh :) it's not that* old. i just put an order for the Nav Edition (the only difference i can tell is that there is a car mount and car charger, do you know any different, if you have that edition where you are?), and i picked it up because the pricepoint seemed right, US$249 here. i also won't be carrying a data plan at first and you can still do a few things with it apparently, i've read quite a few Feb 25 05:57:05 has anybody kept the URL where yesterday's meego.com website IRC meeting log can be found? Feb 25 05:57:44 http://meego.mkdir.name/logs/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-02-24-20.04.html Feb 25 05:57:57 knowkeyah: Well it was released in 2008 H2 as far as I remember. I guess it depends on the definition whether it's old or not :) Feb 25 05:58:01 sivang, well, i can tell you that nokia has about a 6% market share stateside and i believe it is* because of marketing that they are not doing better (yes, in addition to the conflicting systems cdma/gsm and the ridiculous tethering that occurs when you sign up for a contract and phone here) Feb 25 05:58:22 But the good thing about mature products is that they work :D Feb 25 05:58:48 knowkeyah: USA? Feb 25 05:59:06 MiXu-, ok, the Navigation Edition came out in Nov 09, but the hardware and all else is the same i guess ? so you have a point.. Feb 25 05:59:14 sivang, right Feb 25 05:59:15 MiXu-: right so wasupplicant works, network-manager on top of it no so much :) Feb 25 05:59:28 thanks eggonlea ! Feb 25 05:59:33 :) Feb 25 06:01:04 knowkeyah: we've reached a heaven here. All is GSM , and MOC made pretty strict rules to let you move with your number from one operator to another, abiding them to strict rules of tranparency Feb 25 06:01:05 knowkeyah: The 'remakes' usually come with minor software and 'looks' polishments :) Feb 25 06:01:13 So it's basically the same Feb 25 06:03:07 impressed by the (autogenerated?) http://meego.mkdir.name/logs/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-02-24-20.04.html Feb 25 06:04:24 qgil_: wow nice, autogenerated?? Feb 25 06:04:40 sivang: I think so, there was a boot with some commands Feb 25 06:05:01 like #topic etc, that tekojo was using as chair or the meeting Feb 25 06:05:06 http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot ♥ Feb 25 06:05:11 I see Feb 25 06:05:15 ohh nice Feb 25 06:05:18 Ubuntu uses the same thing Feb 25 06:05:23 it's impressive Feb 25 06:05:29 actually it is Feb 25 06:05:35 Niiice Feb 25 06:05:56 oh, well, ubuntu uses a different one but it's nice nonetheless Feb 25 06:06:07 hmm iwiki login is doing me the hell again.. Feb 25 06:07:01 I seriously want to amputate my head right now. Waking up to a splitting headache an hour before the alarm to face a stressful day isn't ideal Feb 25 06:07:24 Myrtti: drink some galons of water Feb 25 06:07:33 Myrtti: that'll solve that and calm you down, you're dyhadrated Feb 25 06:07:50 Myrtti: not coffee, water. Feb 25 06:07:56 yeah, that's probably it, I was down with a stomach bug last week and I'm notoriously bad in hydrating myself Feb 25 06:08:25 * Tm_T huggles Myrtti Feb 25 06:08:37 sivang: I've given up coffee almost totally after my gallbladder thing. It was nice to visit NRC with a gallstone attack underway Feb 25 06:08:55 I laughed at it at the A&E later that day Feb 25 06:08:56 sivang, where is 'here'? i'm guessing somewhere in eur, so i know, i know :) endless numbers of us whine incessantly about the control the telecom comps wield and no standards are made in the direction because they all have powerful lobbyists in washington who buy influence. bah. :/ Feb 25 06:09:06 MiXu-, yes, i was familiar with the cosmetic change (color scheme) but was wondering about any software differences. guess i'll find out as soon as the delivery truck arrives.. :) Feb 25 06:09:25 knowkeyah: Israel, so a bit like EU but not really :) Feb 25 06:09:46 ah, how much of the market does nokia have there? Feb 25 06:10:47 knowkeyah: let me fetch the numbers Feb 25 06:11:07 i was disappointed to learn that they are closing their two flagship stores here (in NYC and Chicago), their only bricks-and-mortar presences here as far as i know (they're also closing the London and have relocated the Rio de Janeiro, so perhaps something else is afoot) Feb 25 06:12:38 perhaps they just don't want to fight the iphone in the US Feb 25 06:12:48 knowkeyah: hmmmm odd Feb 25 06:12:56 interestingly enough, when googling I found - Feb 25 06:13:00 http://press.nokia.com/PR/199910/775679_5.html Feb 25 06:13:30 checkpoint is 2 minutes walk from my apartment :) Feb 25 06:13:32 knowkeyah: Probably no major stuff. Feb 25 06:13:43 But it's a nice solid phone. The best selling Nokia ever, I think. Feb 25 06:13:56 Or was it the best selling nokia smartphone. Can't remember. Feb 25 06:14:47 knowkeyah: well, so Nokia was the leader for many years, but I read now that in 2008 Smasung sold 280,000 out of 1M sold in the cuountry Feb 25 06:14:57 knowkeyah: so they became 2nd place Feb 25 06:14:59 i believe you're right, the products are good, but the problem nokia has stateside from my limited experience and from some extensive reading of u.s. product reviews revolve around poor oral and written support. Feb 25 06:15:11 by the oral support, i mean there is no one here who is familiar firsthand with the product to take calls or receive you to answer questions (other than the aforementioned flagship stores which are closing) Feb 25 06:15:37 knowkeyah: ah we have specilazed support in each operator, Feb 25 06:16:29 knowkeyah: and Nokia have EuroComm http://www.euro-com.co.il/ that are highly trained on the operational technical aspect of every single model ever to come out Feb 25 06:17:07 knowkeyah: we also have this for experimenation and fun - http://www.diskin.com/en/projects/index_02.html Feb 25 06:17:33 which come to think of it, a bit comes as a surprise that Samsung surpassed them with saled. Feb 25 06:17:45 so all inquiries are routed to the philippines where nokia maintains it's call center and i just i had a laborious 1.5 hour session with them over the phone trying to get some answers to the most basic questions--they were courteous, earnest, just not well versed. they'd to look everything up and put me on hold for 10 minutes at a stretch (i was fooling around online which made it barely tolerable :)) Feb 25 06:17:45 No other vendor has this sort of facilities here. Feb 25 06:17:56 sivang, they need to do that here! :) Feb 25 06:18:03 knowkeyah: ask them! :) Feb 25 06:18:12 knowkeyah: they are well established here Feb 25 06:18:49 knowkeyah: but israeli folks don't mind if the printed manual is missing - they'd just learn to use it to fullest on the fly Feb 25 06:19:00 knowkeyah: that's very different from US mentality I suppose Feb 25 06:19:32 I think I'll go visit there today :) Feb 25 06:19:39 I've never been to the innovatino center. Feb 25 06:19:50 the other thing is the written documention, i've read a number of complaints about the manuals which don't cover all the features, selling* features, for their products. and i've experienced the same. Feb 25 06:20:08 sivang, yeah, i don't mind that either, but some people don't want to fool around, they just want it to work.. Feb 25 06:20:51 knowkeyah: well, from my experience , "self explantory UI" is a good definition for the interfaces of the Nokia device..UNlike Motoroal or samsung from experinece! :-) Feb 25 06:20:58 ..or have a good guide which explains how something works. or they may just ignore the features because they don't know about them and there's no documentation covering them. Feb 25 06:21:10 and in N97 Mini, everything like jumps into your face so you can't miss it. Feb 25 06:22:46 Nokia was the first ever device company to start a market here, so I guess it is only natural. Feb 25 06:24:52 they have saved our basketball hall from becoming wreckage :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yad_Eliyahu_Arena Feb 25 06:24:56 knowkeyah: ^^ Feb 25 06:25:17 knowkeyah: that's my 'hood, ir is right across the street Feb 25 06:28:31 knowkeyah: http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/ANB2630.jpg Feb 25 06:30:41 the nokia arena, heh. yes, there's no such marketing effort here. too bad, because i think it could pay off. nokia is shortsighted if they are indeed pulling out all physical presence entirely.. Feb 25 06:32:10 the problem is that people here do not realize the value of buying an unlocked phone for certain* usages. they end up paying for the "free" or subsized phones through their data plan-contracts several times over.. Feb 25 06:32:24 I'm also looking forward to see how the marketing departments from Intel, Nokia and more to come will work marketing MeeGo Feb 25 06:33:06 knowkeyah: if you like Nokia want want that, why don't you write them? Feb 25 06:33:06 these are powerful houses when pointing to the right directions Feb 25 06:33:14 qgil_: true Feb 25 06:33:49