**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Feb 26 02:59:57 2010 Feb 26 04:09:26 ping? testing XChat in N900 Feb 26 04:09:43 qgil, it works Feb 26 04:12:08 openstandards thanks for the pong! Feb 26 04:15:08 oi i ain't smelly j/k :) Feb 26 04:26:35 hum, apparently didn't survive my the change from wlan to 3G, if you answered my question few minutes ago please repost :) Feb 26 04:41:00 IRC On The Go is a weird feeling but I' getting used to it Feb 26 04:42:27 pity that most humans here are sleeping in my morning commuting time :) Feb 26 04:42:37 otherwise it would be perfect Feb 26 04:49:03 hello buddies Feb 26 04:49:37 glad something is finally being done about moblin's woeful inadequacy Feb 26 04:50:31 ... when you put it that way... sounds like it should add a lot to maemo :/ Feb 26 04:51:02 :/ Feb 26 04:51:17 my complaint is rooted based on the fact that moblin has such awesome potential Feb 26 04:51:35 forward movement will yield a great reward Feb 26 04:52:02 never used moblin before so no clue Feb 26 04:52:05 imho moblin lacked the development power to quickly rectify its problems Feb 26 04:52:21 i'm just worried about my nokia n900 getting neglected Feb 26 04:52:23 just a lot of little refinement issues to give it completeness and professionalism Feb 26 04:52:27 don't worry Feb 26 04:52:31 so you've been using maemo already Feb 26 04:52:33 that feels weird Feb 26 04:52:38 I only used moblin :p Feb 26 04:53:37 well maemo 5 seems like kind of mess to me anyway so i'm hoping this will help but kinda worried it wont run on the n900 Feb 26 04:53:47 in one sentence: 3 most urgent thing MeeGo should address? Feb 26 04:54:45 hmmm Feb 26 04:54:54 it's like when redhat merged with fedora Feb 26 04:55:05 who were these fedora people Feb 26 04:57:50 I'm asking seriously :) I'm working full time in MeeGo (from Nokia) Feb 26 04:58:15 what, i thought fedora was just a branch off of redhat? i remember when fedora started but that was before i knew linux much Feb 26 04:59:14 qgil, i think the mail client needs a LOT of work Feb 26 04:59:53 sure, since there is no MeeGo email client released at all ;) Feb 26 05:00:07 also, it would be really nice for a way to know if an app you're installing is optified or not Feb 26 05:00:27 but i guess if i'm using testing/devel that's my problem Feb 26 05:00:30 no opt specified for MeeGo that I'm aware of... Feb 26 05:00:33 yeah fedora was a prexisting project but I knew nothing about it Feb 26 05:00:50 when it merged with redhat linux I just saw it as redhat linux :p Feb 26 05:00:51 I'm not asking about Maemo 5, but the MeeGo project Feb 26 05:01:06 mamoul: insteresting. learning something new every day. Feb 26 05:01:08 mail client hmm Feb 26 05:01:20 e-mail is so 20th century Feb 26 05:01:33 we don't need to support such legacy technology Feb 26 05:01:51 qgil: yeah, but it's supposed to run on devices like that right? Feb 26 05:02:47 that is another thing, but the Maemo 5 email client is not part of the MeeGo project Feb 26 05:02:56 i vote mutt be the official mail client for meego! Feb 26 05:03:21 mutt is hard to work with online mailboxes Feb 26 05:03:30 I'm simply asking in the #meego channel what are the 3 most urgent things the MeeGo project should address now, expressed in one sentence Feb 26 05:03:31 I tried to configure it for gmail and failed Feb 26 05:03:45 well that's good because it sucks Feb 26 05:04:13 I don't know why meego didn't accept the maemo mail client Feb 26 05:04:17 moblin's was super awful Feb 26 05:04:48 maybe this is just a conspiracy to have maemo be replaced by moblin and have all the developers stuck with it Feb 26 05:04:48 because MeeGo's official API is based on Qt and Web Runtime? Feb 26 05:04:49 qgil: i don't know enough about any of this to give you a good answer, sorry :/ Feb 26 05:05:04 mamoul: i can't imagine maemo's is any better Feb 26 05:05:18 is the qt thing a new move? Feb 26 05:05:27 I thought moblin was originally gtk based Feb 26 05:05:27 svanheulen, fair enough. thanks for the fast feedback anyway! Feb 26 05:05:54 morning Feb 26 05:05:57 mamoul, the "qt thing" has been fully advertised since the MeeGo launch Feb 26 05:06:18 :/ Feb 26 05:06:21 I did notice that Feb 26 05:06:27 but was it in moblin before? Feb 26 05:06:45 I think qt is a good but oft misused api Feb 26 05:06:51 i've been playing with programming some qt stuff the past week and i'm glad they decided to go with it Feb 26 05:07:18 qt is very well designed Feb 26 05:07:23 mamoul: they went with qt because nokia owns qt Feb 26 05:07:27 mamoul is one of the (few) technologies specified at http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture Feb 26 05:07:33 they bought trolltech Feb 26 05:07:46 thanks qgil Feb 26 05:07:51 misused? Feb 26 05:08:07 the only reason i never payed attention to qt before is because i think KDE is so aweful Feb 26 05:08:48 aha, they didn't get rid of gtk/clutter! Feb 26 05:08:48 er... and because Qt serves well the purpose of offering a powerfull and well documented native developer environment + web runtime on top of QtWebKit Feb 26 05:08:56 i didn't even know until a few days ago that they finally have lgpl for it Feb 26 05:09:04 lpotter: it's like svanheulen said Feb 26 05:09:10 confusing Qt with KDE is not useful Feb 26 05:09:17 a lot of qt aps are just horribly designed Feb 26 05:09:27 qt itself is lovely Feb 26 05:09:36 LGPL came more than a year ago... Feb 26 05:09:37 a lot of apps in general are horribly designed Feb 26 05:09:45 yes but not on gnome :) Feb 26 05:09:58 ummmm.. sure thing, giant beer Feb 26 05:09:59 qgil: i know, but KDE was the first thing i would always think of when Qt was brought up Feb 26 05:10:06 I don't see why meego wants to keep gtk if they want to emphasize qt Feb 26 05:10:19 having multiple apis will degrade the UI Feb 26 05:10:19 mamoul: best of both worlds Feb 26 05:10:22 meh Feb 26 05:10:30 memory usage of both worlds Feb 26 05:10:32 qgil: i know, i meant i didn't know until a few days ago, that's one reason i avoided it Feb 26 05:11:46 mamoul: well right now maemo supports both, memory usage seems to fine to me Feb 26 05:11:52 MeeGo itself will push Qt and Web Runtime. GTK+ and Cluter APIs are still there to gather better current Moblin and Maemo developers Feb 26 05:12:03 ah Feb 26 05:12:21 it seems though that the moblin desktop is basically written in gtk Feb 26 05:12:33 I wonder if there are plans to replace it Feb 26 05:12:35 same with maemo, heh Feb 26 05:12:48 weird Feb 26 05:12:57 and the Maemo 5 desktop too, but MeeGo will bring a big change in the UI layers Feb 26 05:13:07 i guess they're starting from scratch Feb 26 05:13:11 the whole damn UI should be GTK# Feb 26 05:13:23 less so underneath, where Moblin and Maemo already chared plenty of components Feb 26 05:14:17 what we need is .net mobile operating system Feb 26 05:14:26 ew Feb 26 05:14:30 no we don't Feb 26 05:14:41 go use windows mobile if you want that haha Feb 26 05:14:42 haha Feb 26 05:14:45 * qgil_ sits in the office now Feb 26 05:14:45 oh Feb 26 05:14:52 I want it free software though Feb 26 05:15:01 man I want one of those gadgets on the meego homepage Feb 26 05:15:08 it's like a screen with a keyboard that slides out Feb 26 05:15:16 lol Feb 26 05:15:24 you mean a n900? Feb 26 05:15:28 is that it? Feb 26 05:15:44 are those cheap yet Feb 26 05:16:01 the n900 is a screen with a crappy keyboard that slides out, but yeah Feb 26 05:16:35 oh well I'll stick with my netbook Feb 26 05:16:51 i used to have a htc touch pro, awesome keyboard. n900 keyboard makes me cry ; ; Feb 26 05:17:01 o_O Feb 26 05:17:16 O_o Feb 26 05:17:20 it's a great keyboard, would have been better with an extra row Feb 26 05:18:06 it's totally lop-sided... Feb 26 05:18:14 and it would need 2 extra rows Feb 26 05:18:19 qgil_: Is the repository still down? Feb 26 05:18:24 the one that was up and then taken down Feb 26 05:18:39 the spacebar is offset, not really a problem. and I'll trade a 5 row keyboard of the touch pro 2 for the hardware of the N900 :) Feb 26 05:18:47 Blice: not down but moved Feb 26 05:19:06 Blice: as I said, that was not a MeeGo repository but a Moblin 2.x Feb 26 05:19:22 mmm, so many topics on t.m.o just need to be burned away Feb 26 05:19:28 qgil_: Oh I see. lame. :( Feb 26 05:19:32 we don't need more confusion, so this is why it got moved Feb 26 05:19:49 itching to see meego. The initial UI is Moblin UI in qt, right? Feb 26 05:19:57 more/less Feb 26 05:19:58 there is intense work in rder to bring the first (and I guess very unstable) MeeGo repo, supporting x86 and ARM Feb 26 05:20:00 Blice: nope Feb 26 05:20:05 * mamoul snacks on peanuts Feb 26 05:20:08 qgil_: so when will it go open? Feb 26 05:20:12 no info yet... Feb 26 05:20:13 microlith: i don't know, it just feels awkward to me. touch pro feels like a normal kb to me. Feb 26 05:20:24 (having only an x86 branch was another source of confusion amnd we want to have both architectures supported since the beginning) Feb 26 05:20:39 arjan_: no? I was under the impression that Meego would have a moblin-style UI Feb 26 05:20:46 qgil_: do you know who's responsible for the decision btw? Feb 26 05:20:54 Blice: but the netbook UI isn't qt based Feb 26 05:20:57 the apps and such are Feb 26 05:21:02 but the windowmanager and such are not Feb 26 05:21:05 arjan_: as soon as there is a configuration matchingthe MeeGo architecture for x86 and ARM Feb 26 05:21:17 arjan_: I wouldn't expect a window manager to be based on a gui toolkit. Feb 26 05:21:24 x86 is a disease Feb 26 05:21:31 curse intel and their awesome processors Feb 26 05:21:51 arjan_: is this because clutter is gtk based? Feb 26 05:21:58 Blice: clutter is not gtk based Feb 26 05:22:02 neither is the netbook ui Feb 26 05:22:04 gtk is clutter based? Feb 26 05:22:05 mamoul: ppc all the way? Feb 26 05:22:05 arjan_: the technical steering group, I guess Feb 26 05:22:18 qgil_: ok I guess I need to yell at Imad some more then Feb 26 05:22:25 qgil_: this not being able to do work thing is insane. Feb 26 05:22:30 svanheulen: no, mips Feb 26 05:22:44 mamoul: even better! Feb 26 05:22:49 arjan_: you have noticed I'm not in the steering group, and I know your pain well ;) Feb 26 05:22:50 ha Feb 26 05:23:01 * mamoul isn't in the steering group either Feb 26 05:23:43 maybe I'm wrong but I assume all MeeGo UX references are based on Qt Feb 26 05:23:53 :o Feb 26 05:24:00 qgil_: that's.. not quite right Feb 26 05:24:07 "UX" is a multifaced beast Feb 26 05:24:15 http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture Feb 26 05:24:16 all applications use Qt etc as the MeeGo API Feb 26 05:24:17 UX stands for what Feb 26 05:24:25 qgil_: yeah I know I drew most of that diagram Feb 26 05:24:26 i think someone (offical) need to explain the switch to rpm so that people on the maemo talk stop shitting bricks... Feb 26 05:24:28 arjan_: are there plans to convert the moblin netbook ui to qt then? Feb 26 05:24:34 over time Feb 26 05:24:41 "The MeeGo UI toolkit is the primary toolkit for developing MeeGo applications and is based on Qt with specific enhancements and additions. GTK and Clutter are also included for application compatibility." Feb 26 05:24:48 rpm is better, they have to deal with it Feb 26 05:24:51 *for applications* Feb 26 05:25:01 the actual window manager is something different Feb 26 05:25:08 arjan_: are you working on the netbook UX? Feb 26 05:25:31 qgil_: I'm the moblin architect, and now going into meego Feb 26 05:25:39 nice to meet you :) Feb 26 05:25:46 qgil_: as such I work with the netbook UX guys daily :) Feb 26 05:25:57 "UX" is a wide range of things Feb 26 05:26:02 I'm not sure what people actually think of rpm, but they must not realize how powerful it is or understand what it can do Feb 26 05:26:04 from window manager to apps to .. to .. Feb 26 05:26:10 yeah, I know Feb 26 05:26:15 applications -> Qt, no question Feb 26 05:26:18 mamoul: I don't think we're having this argument anymore Feb 26 05:26:30 but the actual window manager and panel, those aren't going to be Qt initially (or maybe ever) Feb 26 05:26:46 Blice: just my $0.02 US Feb 26 05:26:51 arjan_: I don't expect those to be based off any GUI toolkit anyway. They aren't GTK either, right? Feb 26 05:26:53 but that's its own little area anyway Feb 26 05:27:00 Blice: they're not GTK either, correct Feb 26 05:27:02 yeah, i wasn't trying to start an argument... just saying something official should be put out about it so people stop arguing haha Feb 26 05:27:04 that's fine Feb 26 05:27:17 they use clutter (for graphical effects) and something called "MX", which is how you do buttons on top of clutter Feb 26 05:27:17 meego has kind of a funny name too Feb 26 05:27:18 Moblin and Maemo need both transition paths and flexibility, if we are meant to deliver MeeGo releases at the times they have been promised Feb 26 05:27:27 I mean why not just call it amigo and stop kidding ourselves Feb 26 05:27:39 haha Feb 26 05:27:46 I agree that the name is pretty bad Feb 26 05:27:54 mamoul: not as funny as your nick :) Feb 26 05:27:55 well it catches on Feb 26 05:28:03 thanks akhi Feb 26 05:28:16 Blice: put lawyers and trademark people from two big companies in a room... don't expect some "interesting" name Feb 26 05:28:16 meego like wii Feb 26 05:28:22 to be fair i thought "wtf" when i first heard of Ubuntu Feb 26 05:28:25 the best you can expect is something more bland than hospital food ;) Feb 26 05:28:26 you think it's a dumb name but it becomes definitive Feb 26 05:28:30 and then you take it seriously Feb 26 05:28:36 and meego grows on you over time Feb 26 05:28:57 is this moving onto a discussion about the name? hum, I see my mailbox is waiting for answers... ;) Feb 26 05:28:57 me-go sounds like cave man speak Feb 26 05:29:04 the platform is so easy, even a cave man can use it Feb 26 05:29:10 qgil_: it beats the rpm one ;-) Feb 26 05:29:19 hum, Feb 26 05:29:21 * arjan_ rather talks cool technology ;) Feb 26 05:29:26 how about iGo Feb 26 05:29:32 heh Feb 26 05:29:34 lots of X vs. Y discussions here Feb 26 05:29:41 mamoul: pronunciation argument time! Feb 26 05:29:46 speaking of cool technology has via released that mobile itx yet? Feb 26 05:29:47 * Blice googles Feb 26 05:29:57 anaZ: you're suggesting non-x-vs-y discussions are better than x-vs-y discussions? Feb 26 05:30:10 Blice: lol wat, via still trying itx? Feb 26 05:30:21 X is better by default Feb 26 05:30:22 svanheulen: ?? are you not aware if pico etc.? Feb 26 05:30:25 anaZ: is not Feb 26 05:30:38 it is Feb 26 05:30:38 * arjan_ would like a nice SMALL itx box (atom based... ) :-) Feb 26 05:30:42 lets have a poll Feb 26 05:30:48 I want an ARM based desktop Feb 26 05:30:50 arjan_: the via processors aren't bad imo Feb 26 05:30:56 Blice: i have a micro-itx board but i thought the nano-itx never came out and it died Feb 26 05:31:02 Blice: I work for Intel.. I kinda want to stick to atom ;) Feb 26 05:31:02 via is neat you can build a whole system with only via chips Feb 26 05:31:19 svanheulen: http://images.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&q=pico-itx&ndsp=20&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi Feb 26 05:31:22 also if there's an issue with drivers then or something, I know whos desk I need to sit on ;) Feb 26 05:31:22 I own one of these Feb 26 05:31:42 * mamoul wants a lemote Feb 26 05:31:43 Blice: oh, nice Feb 26 05:31:48 arjan_: I understand your bias :] Feb 26 05:32:00 ARM would also be awesome, yeah. Can't wait for those ARM netbooks Feb 26 05:32:05 intel is space age technology Feb 26 05:32:06 mamoul: You can build a whole system with only intel chips either =) Feb 26 05:32:12 RST38h: too true Feb 26 05:32:23 arjan_: looking for a picture of Arjan van de Ven (to see if we have met before) Google brings me http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/gadgetlab/asus%20eee%20pc.jpg Feb 26 05:32:29 and no, we haven't me before ;) Feb 26 05:32:39 svanheulen: This is the mobile-ITX: http://gizmodo.com/assets/resources/2007/06/phone_with_via_mobile.jpg Feb 26 05:32:40 wow Feb 26 05:32:41 I only look like that after surgery ;) Feb 26 05:32:41 arjan is that you Feb 26 05:32:48 * arjan_ points at http://www.fenrus.org as my homepage Feb 26 05:33:02 sweet Feb 26 05:33:10 arjan_: haven't we ever had a discussion about how you remind me of Ayreon Feb 26 05:33:10 arjan_: hum, nice pics Feb 26 05:33:14 qgil_: You can see a video of him with the 5 second laptop boot Feb 26 05:33:19 I think that was him showing it anyway Feb 26 05:33:59 Blice: that was me and auke Feb 26 05:34:20 so the video might have had auke in it instead Feb 26 05:34:25 ah, lots of people to meet... Feb 26 05:34:37 the Desktop Summit was a potential good chance to meet more people in one place Feb 26 05:34:39 I'm looking for the video Feb 26 05:34:50 qgil_: are you coming to oregon in the next few weeks? Feb 26 05:35:08 arjan_: yes, also to Collaboration Summit in April Feb 26 05:35:24 arjan_: where are you based? Feb 26 05:36:05 qgil_: I'm in portland Feb 26 05:36:13 * arjan_ moved from europe about 3 years ago Feb 26 05:36:20 arjan_: you need to update that page :) Feb 26 05:36:33 http://www.intel.nl/? Feb 26 05:36:39 anaZ: quite.. give me 36 hour days... and I'll do that Feb 26 05:36:47 anaZ: when I worked for Intel netherlands ;) Feb 26 05:36:51 woohoo portland Feb 26 05:36:54 arjan_: if you are in Portland then you definitely need to bug Imad more - I'm bugging Valtteri a lot fwiw Feb 26 05:37:04 imad sits about 5 feet away from my cube Feb 26 05:37:05 they have that ridiculous intel fab Feb 26 05:37:15 well .. he's almost never there Feb 26 05:37:19 but that's besides the point Feb 26 05:38:02 I think what we basically need is a raw of official nominations so there is more people with a public and explicit MeeGo role Feb 26 05:38:15 arjan_: kind of off topic: would it be impossible for me (only knowing english) to get a programming job in the netherlands... i want to live there some day (soon) Feb 26 05:38:37 svanheulen: everyone there under 45 years or so speaks english Feb 26 05:38:54 but I would suggest a bigger, international company, they might even speak english at work there Feb 26 05:39:16 arjan_: yeah, i've been there. everyone spoke english, just wasn't sure about jobs there Feb 26 05:39:29 plenty of programmers in Finland live in an English speaking environment, not only at Nokia Feb 26 05:39:41 awesome! Feb 26 05:39:44 finnish is one of the hardest languages of europe Feb 26 05:39:50 anyway arjan_ & co, I'll go work on something concrete ;) Feb 26 05:39:59 I mean, put me in any country in europe, and I can sort of read various signs etc Feb 26 05:40:02 not so in Finland Feb 26 05:40:05 namely a blog post summarizing the current status with web services Feb 26 05:40:06 yeah what an idea.. work ;) Feb 26 05:40:13 * arjan_ goes to do some coding ;) Feb 26 05:40:45 and a proposal to use http://en.opensuse.org/OpenFATE to handle features at MeeGo Feb 26 05:40:53 fate? Feb 26 05:40:55 oh dear god Feb 26 05:41:27 arjan_: any opinions? better alternatives? Feb 26 05:41:39 It seems Mark Sharpness had a look at ti Feb 26 05:41:45 qgil_: make your own. Feb 26 05:41:48 novell uses it for all their enterprise stuff Feb 26 05:41:51 is he here under some nickname? Feb 26 05:41:54 and... lets call me rather sceptical Feb 26 05:41:55 you could whip something similar up in python in under a week Feb 26 05:41:57 haven't seen mark around Feb 26 05:42:05 any standard IT ticket tracker is better Feb 26 05:42:07 Blice: yeah, sure, I had heard that story Feb 26 05:42:26 inventing something new is a fun time sink.. no thanks :) Feb 26 05:42:28 Blice: why waste a week when it's already made Feb 26 05:43:01 qgil_: one of the hard things is the boundary between feature and bug Feb 26 05:43:05 that's a VERY gray area Feb 26 05:43:10 arjan_ and anybody having used/studied openFate: concrete feedback is appreciated Feb 26 05:43:18 *it sucks* is also helpful, but less :) Feb 26 05:43:31 and of course concrete alternatioves are appreciated Feb 26 05:43:44 basically, we need 2 things at MeeGo: Feb 26 05:43:49 bugzilla sucks for this as well, but at least you can move bugs to features and back Feb 26 05:43:52 a way to document features under development Feb 26 05:44:20 and (more optional) a way to let anybody propose features, polish them, vote them... Feb 26 05:44:23 well, fate is not more than a description of something with a unique id and some comments :) Feb 26 05:44:48 qgil_: the voting/etc part could be done in bugzilla, that's the one thing it does well ;) Feb 26 05:44:53 you can also do that with drupal I guess, the way you want Feb 26 05:44:54 arjan_: bugzilla is not that flexible when it comes to edit a first post (a feature documented) Feb 26 05:44:54 but tracking development sucks in bugzilla Feb 26 05:45:11 yeah bugzilla has rather issues Feb 26 05:45:16 and I would not use bugzilla for something like that, you need lots of customizations Feb 26 05:45:37 Bugzilla does feel like a lesser evil though Feb 26 05:45:39 I even think we did that internally Feb 26 05:45:47 arjan_: if you look at it from a roadmap point of view, the difference between a bug and a feature is a bit clearer Feb 26 05:46:01 qgil_: that's debatable. For big things, absolutely Feb 26 05:46:07 you roadmap new features to new releases, and they need to be done Feb 26 05:46:10 but from a user, not so much Feb 26 05:46:14 then of course there are plenty of bugs in the way Feb 26 05:46:22 "this app does not do FOO" Feb 26 05:46:25 is that a bug or a feature Feb 26 05:46:29 it could even be both Feb 26 05:46:35 s/feature/feature request/ Feb 26 05:47:03 yes, but MeeGo saying "in version XXX ThisApp will do FOO", then it's clearly a feature Feb 26 05:47:21 that's after an engineering planning meeting ;) Feb 26 05:47:23 And once it is not present in version XXX, it becomes a bug Feb 26 05:47:32 sure but that boundary is rather fuzzy Feb 26 05:47:39 * arjan_ has been there on the other side of a bugzilla ;) Feb 26 05:47:45 users have expectations of things Feb 26 05:47:49 I'm less concerned about fuzzy boundaries Feb 26 05:48:04 the flow for features must work well Feb 26 05:48:04 and more concerned about a tool to roadmap features, define them and track development Feb 26 05:48:08 that is not overkill Feb 26 05:48:10 but is usefull Feb 26 05:48:11 I know Feb 26 05:48:29 if I had used a tool that I liked ever, I'd let you know Feb 26 05:48:35 so... I'm proposing openFate as default candidate, happy to be beaten if there is anything better Feb 26 05:48:40 it's more a case of 'the least of the evils', not 'there is a good one' Feb 26 05:48:56 as long as I never have to use fate I dont care to be honest Feb 26 05:49:00 but I fear that's not reality Feb 26 05:49:09 so we should make one then right Feb 26 05:49:12 right right right Feb 26 05:49:22 Blice: if you have it done by next wednesday .. ;-) Feb 26 05:49:28 Blice: feel free coding it and let us know when it's ready Feb 26 05:49:39 MeeGo itself has already to put a huge amount of code together Feb 26 05:49:48 we don't need more hacking :) Feb 26 05:50:53 arjan_ and anybody interested, I started the discussion at http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-February/000104.html Feb 26 05:51:07 your feedback is welcome and archived there :) Feb 26 05:51:36 BUT since this is a tool that plenty of Intel and Nokia developers will use on a daily basis (if we do this open development right, and we must) Feb 26 05:51:52 it is clear that such decision can't be really made without involving those teams Feb 26 05:52:02 I'm on it on the Nokia side, happy to find the Intel counterpart Feb 26 05:53:03 Mark Sharpness, probably? Feb 26 05:54:23 qgil_: will ask around who's the right person Feb 26 05:54:24 RST38h: "And once it is not present in version XXX, it becomes a bug" Feb 26 05:54:26 might be various Feb 26 05:54:36 still a "missing feature" ;) but all is debatable, yes :) Feb 26 05:55:06 qgil_: if there's a good way to bridge between bugzilla and whatever tool we end up with ... should not be too hard Feb 26 05:55:22 I mean, there's very few things you can't get done in that space with a few thousand lines of perl or python ;-) Feb 26 05:55:41 I have several emails actually of people that evaluated openFate, apparently for Moblin last fall... Feb 26 05:56:40 arjan_: according to the openFate guys, the tool bridges with bugzilla already (depending how you define "bridging") and they are working on bridging it with OBS too, so in princple the plan doesn't sound that bad Feb 26 05:56:59 if there is anything to improve, well the tool is in Gitorious so Blice & co can commit their patches there Feb 26 05:57:59 and now really: back to concrete work - nice to meet you and se you latert Feb 26 06:12:53 oh god how I hate mornings Feb 26 06:18:03 mournings. Feb 26 06:18:11 Morning Feb 26 06:18:59 hello, tekojo, Myrtti Feb 26 06:19:56 moo, RST38h Feb 26 06:30:59 qgil_: Hm, weren't you working in Finland these days? Feb 26 06:31:21 You seem to be a really early bird Feb 26 06:34:01 Hukka: Helsinki local trains Feb 26 06:34:06 *chuckle* Feb 26 06:34:14 you have to be an early bird this week Feb 26 06:34:29 Is the qgil_ real or a ghost? Feb 26 06:34:43 was real three minutes to eight Feb 26 06:34:59 [07:57] < qgil_> and now really: back to concrete work - nice to meet you and se you latert Feb 26 06:35:08 Oh, ok. I just don't see details of him Feb 26 06:35:33 all fuzzywuzzy :-P Feb 26 06:35:40 :) Feb 26 06:35:58 I swear to god I'll not regret if I'll never see these bloody latex documents again Feb 26 06:36:04 *sigh* Feb 26 06:36:16 Myrtti: Documents with sharp edges? Feb 26 06:36:32 (Thank you thank you, I'm here all day) Feb 26 06:36:36 Before 9 local time and you are already talking LaTeX Feb 26 06:36:50 Long day ahead! Feb 26 06:37:01 tekojo: I would have talked about it at 0030 last night too Feb 26 06:37:24 and yes, I think I'll be cutting my wrists open with the printouts sooner or later, Hukka Feb 26 06:37:32 You seriously need to lay off the type-setting for a while Feb 26 06:38:42 Myrtti: If you were using Word, you would already have a clip(py) through your throat Feb 26 06:39:27 They've killed clippy in Office 2007 :( Feb 26 06:39:51 tekojo: I have. The pain comes from the fact I returned back to debugging it couple of days back, seeing the typesetting guide and the script infrastructure totally redone from what I saw it last Feb 26 06:40:05 relearning everything after two years is a bit painful Feb 26 06:40:30 that really is painful Feb 26 06:41:12 Look at the bright side: it might have been MS Word Feb 26 06:42:19 MiXu: If Clippy had a neck to squeeze I would have killed it long before 2007 =) Feb 26 06:42:30 :) Feb 26 06:43:20 RST38h: ... these documents *WERE* MS Word originally. Then magic and some abiword and head-on-the-wall action happened. Feb 26 06:43:38 YAY, it doesn't compile anymore! Feb 26 06:43:40 :-< Feb 26 06:43:58 oh Feb 26 06:44:34 Hukka: I do work in Helsinki and I'm an early bird indeed --> consequence of being a modern father taking care of kids in the afternoon :) Feb 26 06:45:08 (which is not being useful to keep a dialog with Intel guys at Portland in decent common timezones, honeslty) :9 Feb 26 06:45:36 RST38h: I See you're writing a clever quip. Would you like help? (A) Sarcasm (B) Emoticon Feb 26 06:46:02 I can imagine, I'll be going to Sunnyvale for two months in mid-March and I'll "eagerly" await for the fun of telecommuting to Finland Feb 26 06:46:49 qgil_: Though it is getting easier again, lightwise Feb 26 06:47:11 At least I wake up quite easily with light. Even bough an alarm light this winter! Feb 26 06:47:15 +t Feb 26 06:51:28 Maybe meego will end up to the black list as well: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2010/02/big-content-condemns-foreign-governments-that-endorse-foss.ars Feb 26 06:53:10 grmbl Feb 26 06:53:30 ERROR: Exception(sources/bash-4.0.35-2.2.moblin2.src.rpm) Config(moblin-trunk-i386) 506 minutes 5 seconds Feb 26 06:56:19 Hukka: these days I found abn incentive being the first person stepping on a beautiful carpet of fresh snow in my way to the trains station ;) Feb 26 06:57:23 Oh all you southerns... (up and including Helsinki) Feb 26 06:57:32 It's not really that much snow :) Feb 26 07:04:01 it is too much always Feb 26 07:08:08 the local papers are urging everyone to clean up their roofs of snow Feb 26 07:08:24 hope they have the hospital beds lined up Feb 26 07:08:36 I swear I just read "clean up their rootfs of snow" Feb 26 07:08:45 wha- wha what? Feb 26 07:09:00 well, I suppose there is a better technical term for this? Feb 26 07:09:15 "remove the snow from the roof" Feb 26 07:09:24 ah sorry Feb 26 07:09:30 yeah, missed that one character Feb 26 07:09:37 snow on rootfs Feb 26 07:09:42 that's a problem. Feb 26 07:10:00 we'll "optify" the snow to a less harmful place Feb 26 07:10:17 * villemv is waiting for 1.2 & end of rootfs woes Feb 26 07:10:28 villemv, tomorrow they'll ask everyone to go to the streets to shovel snow ;) Feb 26 07:10:35 there you go. "the local papers are urging users to optify their rootfs to relocate snow" Feb 26 07:10:55 :D Feb 26 07:11:05 inz: at least that's less of a national health hazard... Feb 26 07:11:13 villemv, true dat. Feb 26 07:11:56 lucent, papers are so environmentally bad, wouldn't "the local rss-feed" be better Feb 26 07:12:38 inz: substitute "maintainers" Feb 26 07:12:54 maintainers are urguing users to optify their rootfs to relocate porn Feb 26 07:13:01 that's the completed sentence? Feb 26 07:13:10 I was going to keep it to myself until you spoke up :P Feb 26 07:13:26 wher has the snow gone? Feb 26 07:13:47 Dealers are urging users to optify their reality to sell more snow Feb 26 07:14:13 kebax: my kid sister down in Florida reports accumulated snowfall Feb 26 07:14:13 coke on rootfs Feb 26 07:14:25 which is freaky Feb 26 07:14:25 lucent: more medication for you Feb 26 07:14:35 Myrtti: thanks. Needed it. Feb 26 07:15:44 morning Feb 26 07:59:54 morning Feb 26 08:00:31 morn gour Feb 26 08:00:56 i returned from my 25-day trip and found out about meego...before that i was thinking whether to use maemo or moblin, but now i'm confused Feb 26 08:00:59 hiya Stskeeps Feb 26 08:01:22 Stskeeps: what meego brings to mer? any space for other toolkit (e.g. wx)? Feb 26 08:02:09 morning all Feb 26 08:02:22 (considering that due to mac os support, i'll use wx instead of gtk for the desktop-part) Feb 26 08:05:48 er, macos support? Feb 26 08:06:32 gour: why confused? the call should be simpler now Feb 26 08:07:00 robsta: 'cause it looks that qt is the only way now Feb 26 08:07:23 Stskeeps: yes, wx seems to be better supported than gtk+ on mac Feb 26 08:07:35 gour: well that's not true, gtk and clutter are supported on meego Feb 26 08:07:53 gour: It is the *suggested* way :) Feb 26 08:08:03 robsta: for now, but i wonder if it will stay like that Feb 26 08:08:28 leinir: heh, that's what i'm afraid :-D Feb 26 08:09:39 gour: just out of interest, why would you not use Qt? :) Feb 26 08:10:04 i'm not going to argue, mind, i'm simply interested in people's reasoning :) Feb 26 08:10:28 (i'm a supporter and user of Qt, but that does not mean others have to ;) Feb 26 08:34:20 leinir: well, i simply preferred gtk+ look, and it seems that wx is behaving/looking better on mac which is, in my case, important platform to support (although i'll develop natively on linux). moreover, i'm more comfortable depending on community project...nokia's steps with support for maemo (short lifecycles) are not much appreciated here Feb 26 08:34:53 doesn't qt exist on mac too? Feb 26 08:35:12 also, out of curiousity, what project? Feb 26 08:35:27 Stskeeps: Yup, it's why we chose it for our uni project - Windows, MacOS X an Linux/X11 (and a good bunch of others as well) :) Feb 26 08:35:34 gour: ok, thanks :) Feb 26 08:36:26 Stskeeps: it exists, but wx is more 'native'. Feb 26 08:36:49 leinir: if you want to be successful on osx write a native gui, if it's just to get a grade it won't matter if you're using gt, qt or wx Feb 26 08:37:21 * gour would like to have wx for meego Feb 26 08:37:33 eek Feb 26 08:38:03 robsta: the problem is that we had those three OSes that we wanted to work on, and Qt was the only thing with which we could all work on exactly the same codebase :) Feb 26 08:38:06 So... :) Feb 26 08:38:22 arjan: hmhm, you guys use brtfs on moblin? Feb 26 08:40:59 leinir: i'd just finish the assignment first, and then if you have time do the ports Feb 26 08:41:34 http://leinir.dk/gluon-bt/ <-- our project :) Feb 26 08:41:35 leinir: priority on the important things, Feb 26 08:42:24 leinir: you've been busy :) Feb 26 08:42:32 chakie_work: Yup :) Feb 26 08:42:41 leinir: wx was not the option? Feb 26 08:43:32 gour: no, because with three people we did not have time to build more than one UI, and Qt offers some very pleasant possibilities in that area :) Feb 26 08:44:05 (the whole thing that the UI elements all know how to handle the QtCore data containers and everything...) Feb 26 08:44:18 gah, i'm sounding like a Qt advertisement here, sorry, that was not my intention :) Feb 26 08:44:19 leinir: hmm, you need UI for mobile platform as well or just desktop? Feb 26 08:44:42 does qt work well with clutter? Feb 26 08:44:46 gour: desktop for this :) Feb 26 08:45:11 gah! i've gotta run, need to catch a bus shortly :) Feb 26 08:45:23 if you're still here in a couple of hours, i shall be happy to continue :) Feb 26 08:45:48 leinir: then i do not understand why wx cannot be used...in my case wx is nice solution, but the 'problem' is if i want to write desktop-lite companion, aka 'lite' version for mobile platform Feb 26 08:46:11 Qt QUICK Feb 26 08:46:13 alden: there is a clutter-qt module and chances are bugs will be fixed if someone is actually using it Feb 26 08:46:18 look it up while i'm away ;) Feb 26 08:47:24 alden: http://www.clutter-project.org/sources/clutter-qt/1.0/ Feb 26 08:47:50 Morning, all Feb 26 08:48:59 im guessing its relevant because meego is clutter based and uses qt as its primary ui dev framework? Feb 26 08:51:18 alden: i don't know any specific plans but i'd sure hope so Feb 26 09:26:43 morning Feb 26 09:34:11 mmmm'ning Feb 26 10:07:42 Drinking this beer called "Wild Blue". It's blueberry lager Feb 26 10:07:56 tastes weird at first but it grows on you really quickly. Interesting combination Feb 26 10:08:24 too early for beer at the moment Feb 26 10:08:31 You should try "Duvel" as a beer .... tahts the one I like the most Feb 26 10:08:37 still enjoying coffee Feb 26 10:08:46 slaine_, there is no such thing as too early Feb 26 10:08:56 and i thought you had gotten rid of your _ now :p Feb 26 10:10:08 Gah, different client. I knew I had something to do. Coffee would have woken me up enough to remember sooner or later Feb 26 10:11:49 coffee ... reminds me of a links somebody posted yesterday (dont remember who though) -> http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2324.txt Feb 26 10:13:07 damn browser irc client .... always kicks me out when I press a link Feb 26 10:17:51 bva: have you tried "delirium tremens" ? fantastic beer! even has a pink elephant on it ;) Feb 26 10:22:40 hhartz: and delirium nocturn? Feb 26 10:23:28 hrw: ooo, an additional 0.5% :) haven't tried that one Feb 26 10:55:20 Too early for beer? Never! Feb 26 10:55:42 * Basstard` cracks one open Feb 26 10:56:18 meego friday bar? Feb 26 10:56:50 6 hours to beer o'clock for me Feb 26 10:56:57 well 6 and a bit Feb 26 10:57:54 6 in the morning Feb 26 11:35:49 * benbrown needs to be less lazy and finish his maemo app. Feb 26 11:40:25 benbrown: You could try being lazy when it comes to being lazy. Feb 26 11:50:19 Maybe. Don't think that trick will work tho Feb 26 13:15:31 * w00t wanders in Feb 26 13:15:33 how are we all? Feb 26 13:17:47 w00t: I'm good! & even better now that my weekend is about to start ;) Feb 26 13:17:58 qgil_: i bet :P Feb 26 13:18:03 still a few hours for me.. Feb 26 13:18:08 have a nice weekend :) Feb 26 13:18:14 but it's a quiet afternoon, so I'm able to wander around in here for a bit Feb 26 13:18:52 that was rapid. :P Feb 26 13:19:49 qgil: still under attack by disgruntled N900 owners? :) Feb 26 13:20:17 heh Feb 26 13:20:24 * w00t still doesn't understand such disgruntlement Feb 26 13:20:32 I adore my precious Feb 26 13:20:33 I do :) Feb 26 13:20:44 if I wasn't already engaged I'd propose to it Feb 26 13:20:56 but meh, let's all hug and make this meego shitz the best it can be, shall we? Feb 26 13:21:04 ++ Feb 26 13:21:38 * hrw -> off Feb 26 13:25:55 w00t, but don't you know, as soon as MeeGo for handhelds is released, your precious will stop working Feb 26 13:26:08 slaine: *sigh* :P Feb 26 13:26:37 tybollt, constructive critism works better than attacking. even more so if you come armed with patches for issues ;) Feb 26 13:27:11 lcuk: still a little early for that I'd guess, but yes Feb 26 13:27:17 forgot my current hobby of combining commuting with #meego X-Chat Feb 26 13:27:44 hi qgil \o hope you are not xchatting whilst driving! Feb 26 13:27:54 hey qgil, wb Feb 26 13:28:03 w00t, i meant from the maemo side Feb 26 13:28:05 i don't drive trains, no Feb 26 13:28:14 :D good Feb 26 13:28:22 qgil, have a good weekend, and thx for still being active even with lots of people shouting and screaming at most positive nokia press releases Feb 26 13:29:12 just trying to help... Feb 26 13:29:54 hopefully you have a thick skin for those kinds of attacks, don't think i could do it Feb 26 13:33:20 zaheerm it's actually not complicated, and most of the times not about skin thickness Feb 26 13:33:39 people have reasons to complain Feb 26 13:34:06 some have better than others... Feb 26 13:34:08 You only have to worry when people stop complaining. Feb 26 13:34:18 Because then they stopped caring. Feb 26 13:34:52 no they dont, only if they have a Nokia 5110 (those phones where indestructable btw) Feb 26 13:34:59 I guess it's less about what the complaint is about (e.g. deb / rpm) Feb 26 13:35:10 and more about the reason of the complaint Feb 26 13:35:39 Change is triggering reactions anyway. Feb 26 13:35:43 (e.g. a fear that this is just about Moblin/Fedora overtaking Maemo/Debian?) Feb 26 13:36:05 And when you pick one of the two, someone always ends up not being picked. Feb 26 13:36:10 So that party isn't happy. Feb 26 13:36:11 oh i was more talking about the mindless complaints...nokia promised xyz and not delivering, nokia abandoning n900 users by developing with a long term strategy... Feb 26 13:36:42 ah well, about those... Feb 26 13:37:09 Being open has it's down sides too. People see earlier on where things might lead to :) Feb 26 13:37:10 there are things I agree and can help solving (no need for thick skin) Feb 26 13:37:39 things I agree but can't help solving (no need for thick skin) Feb 26 13:38:10 and things I simply disagree (no need for thick skin) :) Feb 26 13:38:14 i am extremely happy that we have now a formal commitment for the platform to be openly developed, with meego Feb 26 13:38:27 I don't think anyone could be unhappy with that really Feb 26 13:38:28 and that outweighs the deb/rpm issue Feb 26 13:38:37 being "open source advocate" me too! Feb 26 13:38:40 * GAN900 wonders if he missed anything important in scrollback. Feb 26 13:38:41 and whatever other issues Feb 26 13:38:54 GAN900: do what I do: if it's important enough, people will always say it again Feb 26 13:38:55 *g* Feb 26 13:39:19 w00t, yeah, but if it's 3 months later then it may be too late! ;) Feb 26 13:39:22 w00t: sounds like me approach to email Feb 26 13:39:22 hehe Feb 26 13:39:39 * w00t is a bit annoyed at gmail today for hiding all the meego/maemo mails for the past ~2 days Feb 26 13:39:59 conspiracy? Feb 26 13:40:35 something I was asking at an impossible time this morning: Feb 26 13:41:08 can you summarize in oner sentence the 3 things the MeeGo should address urgently? Feb 26 13:41:15 qgil: my own stupidity, more like, after suffering through 3-4 hours just from one day's mail backlog, I went and changed loads of my filters to try make myself more efficient. Feb 26 13:41:28 hmm Feb 26 13:42:26 for me personally.. Feb 26 13:42:36 qgil: architecture description (detailed), roadmap? Feb 26 13:42:40 qgil: technical steering group meetings on a regular basis starting very soon so things can get rolling Feb 26 13:42:53 qgil: Lot of people are asking for details, which there aren't any. Feb 26 13:42:58 of course, for anybody personally,l this is the funny part about this "game" here and now Feb 26 13:43:37 it's all pretty much the same thing: open open open - specs, plans, code (no more code dumps, develop in the open!) Feb 26 13:44:37 I do agree with Stskeeps / X-Fade though in that things seem to be a bit in limbo at the moment, though there are obviously reasons why things are taking time to pull together (not worth sidetracking into that discussion now though) Feb 26 13:46:03 my concern is primarily enthusiasm being met with crickets Feb 26 13:46:08 or, rather, the sound of crickets Feb 26 13:46:08 yeah Feb 26 13:46:11 open development has detailed architecture as dependency Feb 26 13:46:36 stskeeps that is a very good description Feb 26 13:46:43 We need something to start filling the vacuum. Feb 26 13:47:00 Or else Stskeeps' enthusiasm is all going to go to waste. Feb 26 13:47:01 (anybody knows how to escape userids with XChat? Feb 26 13:47:12 I feel the meego compliancy thing is quite fuzzy still... similar to what moblin compliancy was. like is harmattan as meego compliant be providing exact same versions of specific software, and if not what was the meego compliancy about again Feb 26 13:47:12 escape? Feb 26 13:47:15 Much like patches on bugs.maemo.org . . . *eg* Feb 26 13:47:21 qgil, tab? Feb 26 13:47:30 ie. the difference between meego the distro and meego compliancy requirements Feb 26 13:47:30 in an N900 Feb 26 13:47:42 qgil, there's a blog post about rebinding keys somewhere Feb 26 13:47:45 qgil: you mean nick completition (sts Igalia or somebody Feb 26 13:47:57 Set fn-return to tab. Feb 26 13:48:14 * w00t defers to the experts Feb 26 13:48:16 Works great here (plus paging and home/end on arrow keys) Feb 26 13:48:20 stskeeps yes :) Feb 26 13:48:21 I use irssi in xterm, so Feb 26 13:48:41 i think theres a "sts;" thing in x-chat somewhere too Feb 26 13:48:50 needs an onscreen button for tab in xchat Feb 26 13:49:06 sorry, back to topic Feb 26 13:49:09 http://blogs.igalia.com/berto/2009/12/17/remapping-the-n900-arrow-keys/ Feb 26 13:49:26 Tab settings are in comments. Feb 26 13:49:37 lcuk, just follow that guide. Feb 26 13:49:42 gan900 thx Feb 26 13:50:29 Wish somebody would put together a control panel. Feb 26 13:50:51 speaking of onscreen buttons Feb 26 13:50:57 anyone know how to get an 'alt' key in xterm? Feb 26 13:51:08 GAN900, not exactly user friendly - nor something that can extend beyond a reinstall. now if there was a package to do it.. Feb 26 13:51:22 argh sorry for my stupid completion question, the discussion about cricket was interesting! Feb 26 13:51:33 yes, I should stop sidetracking things *g* Feb 26 13:51:51 qgil: An open project needs leaders who participate. Feb 26 13:53:01 lcuk, look, you want something that does what you asked or you want me to program a new button into XChat. There's only one of those things I can help with. :) Feb 26 13:53:50 qgil's trying to distract us! Feb 26 13:54:06 w00t: want me to check or did you find it? Feb 26 13:54:08 X- Feb 26 13:54:18 GAN900, a new button in xchat would be wonderous, can you have a patch by monday? Feb 26 13:54:20 :D Feb 26 13:54:22 red: I don't know, but it is a bit unimportant compared to the discission that was going on :) Feb 26 13:54:23 it should be on the on screen buttons by defaul tho Feb 26 13:54:28 * GAN900 has yet to see much beyond one blog post and about a dozen lines in here from the TSG Feb 26 13:54:28 I'm trying to distract myself in the commuter train, honestly Feb 26 13:54:44 lcuk, Bzzt. Wrong answer. Feb 26 13:54:59 less discussions means less timje in emails and Talk so I come here to find frsh messages :) Feb 26 13:55:46 * GAN900 feels like there are a lot of people flailing around without enough answers. Feb 26 13:56:02 GAN900: yes, pretty much Feb 26 13:56:36 it probably doesn't help that all the initial noise on meego-dev meant that a lot of people that could provide good input probably redirected it to /dev/null Feb 26 13:56:41 i think there is currently a mismatch between corporate responsabilities and visible open project responsibilities Feb 26 13:57:15 * GAN900 finds some glue to reattach his kickstand magnet. Feb 26 13:57:39 Imad and Valtteri have done a fantastic job pushing a huge load of people and work in order to get an initial agreement amond 3 parties and one launch Feb 26 13:57:46 w00t, it could hardly be a surprising reaction. Feb 26 13:57:58 GAN900: oh, certainly, I'm just pointing out that it is a problem Feb 26 13:58:21 Now we need to keep that inertia moving. Feb 26 13:58:41 qgil, who is the 3rd party? Feb 26 13:58:42 Imad and Valtteri have done a fantastic job pushing a huge load of people and work in order to get an initial agreement amond 3 parties and one launch Feb 26 13:58:59 maybe it could be nice to have imad and valtteri workstreaming, as they do a lot of work but we have no idea what is going on currently :) Feb 26 13:59:01 linux foundation? Feb 26 13:59:03 zaheerm: LF Feb 26 13:59:42 and they are the right people to lead the bootstrapping including the huge amount of work still remaining in order to brfing Intel and Nokia things ojutside Feb 26 14:00:00 I think qgil is having problems. :p Feb 26 14:00:11 i keep on saying "X" in the corner should be task switch, not close Feb 26 14:00:20 *grin* Feb 26 14:00:27 the connection might break in the train between a few stations.. Feb 26 14:00:31 he is on the train using the n900, easy to press the wrong part of screen Feb 26 14:01:04 Mirv: yeah, but "Quit" is leaving on your own ;) Feb 26 14:01:37 point taken Feb 26 14:01:41 Stskeeps: How do you then suggest quitting applications should be done? Feb 26 14:01:52 And no, a task manager with a list of running apps is not the right answer ;) Feb 26 14:01:54 leinir: *quit*? who needs that :) Feb 26 14:01:59 (*cough*symbian*cough*) Feb 26 14:02:01 (yay windows mobile!) Feb 26 14:02:05 leinir: saw Mer 0.16? top right corner has a small task switcher and a X to kill a certain task Feb 26 14:03:07 Stskeeps: what did you mean by 'workstreaming'? Feb 26 14:03:09 i personally rather like the two-level thing in freemantle... tap to see everything running, tap again to get more into that list Feb 26 14:04:21 w00t: honestly, a twitter account would do. but like http://www.qaiku.com/channels/show/maemork/ Feb 26 14:04:51 Stskeeps: ah, right Feb 26 14:04:57 * wazd cackles evily bout Symbian ^4 UI Feb 26 14:08:23 wazd, yah the videos don't overly impress.... Feb 26 14:08:47 zaheerm: they are absolutely lame actually :D Feb 26 14:08:57 i was trying to be nice ;) Feb 26 14:09:05 zaheerm: :D Feb 26 14:09:11 It's Symbian Feb 26 14:09:23 It hasn't impressed since 2004 Feb 26 14:09:23 zaheerm: how can you be nice with video that shows Vagina Clock (tm) ? :D Feb 26 14:09:42 but symbian ^4 is meant to be symbian's saviour and bringing it into the new era Feb 26 14:10:23 the stoneage? Feb 26 14:10:30 lol Feb 26 14:10:55 The term you are searching for is "guilded turd" Feb 26 14:11:33 lipsticked pig, I thought Feb 26 14:12:29 ;) Feb 26 14:12:39 There's a good few of those :) Feb 26 14:19:21 * slaine cries into his coffee Feb 26 14:20:01 slaine: Awwww *cuddles* what's wrong? Feb 26 14:20:08 i mean... manly cuddles! Feb 26 14:20:12 snif Feb 26 14:20:28 oh sod it, who am i kidding ;) Feb 26 14:20:33 I was given a GMA500 device and asked to get our Fedora 12 based demo working on it for next week Feb 26 14:20:34 re: the earlier discussion, i <3 my N900 Feb 26 14:20:52 And... it's not cooperating, i take it? Feb 26 14:21:04 benbrown: Unsurprisingly - it's frickin' nifty :) Feb 26 14:21:20 I don't get the people saying "I'm going to sell my n900 because meego won't run on it" Feb 26 14:21:22 GAM500 doesn't work on Xorg 1.7 and kernels > 2.6.30 Feb 26 14:21:26 GMA even Feb 26 14:21:31 *facepalms* Gah, that is nasty yeah Feb 26 14:21:47 benbrown: That's all people who are, for want of a better term, entirely clueless :) Feb 26 14:22:02 Would mean forking back to Fedora 11 just for one hardware device, I can't justify that. We're already resource strained Feb 26 14:22:03 slaine: not even with IEGD? Feb 26 14:22:14 Nope, they're xorg 1.6 only Feb 26 14:22:23 ah, lovely Feb 26 14:22:27 They seem to forget to ask, "Does it do what I want it to right now?" Which for me is a definate yes Feb 26 14:22:37 There has been exactly no official statement either way, but all the signals people are pushing out says that it'll be able to :) But hey, who ever needed facts to get a good shit-storm brewing, eh? ;) Feb 26 14:22:38 I downloaded moblin's ivi release and it doesn't work very well Feb 26 14:23:06 A bit of FUD is always fun Feb 26 14:23:07 benbrown: these are the same people who sees intel conspiring to kill ARM with meego Feb 26 14:23:19 *nods* Indeed :) Feb 26 14:23:48 It's all good fun, and provided by the (not exactly) vast hordes of zealots out there who just don't get the proverbial it ;) Feb 26 14:24:12 Yeah I can't see ARM getting killed. Not until intel can sort that power usage anyway. I'm more concerned about MySQL being killed by Oracle but that's another story.... Feb 26 14:25:20 "Oracle Lite" Feb 26 14:25:22 :P Feb 26 14:26:24 indeed. Not too good, especially as we use MySQL extensively at work Feb 26 14:28:57 well, they can't kill it, except for the name and logo and proprietary licensing options Feb 26 14:29:48 personally I think it would be good if people transition over to something less technically braindead like postgresql, but I recognize that can't happen instantaneously, and lots of other people will do development on the MySQL code if there's demand left unfilled by Oracle Feb 26 14:33:44 Hmm, have postgres sorted out replication? Feb 26 14:34:28 benbrown: I think so, especially in the upcoming 8.5 and 9.0 releases, but even now with some third-party add-ons Feb 26 14:35:17 benbrown: postgres is also improving their permissions system so that certain common desires that are easy in MySQL but hard in current PostgreSQL become easy in PostgreSQL Feb 26 14:35:21 I don't think we'd be too happy with third-party addons. It's something we use a lot. And we have some pretty busy databases. Plus 10years+ of legacy code... Feb 26 14:36:04 "third-party addons" doesn't imply anything negative - it doesn't at all imply unsupported or without a company behind it Feb 26 14:36:19 that said, I think they are improving replication for near-future releases as I said Feb 26 14:37:05 benbrown: I've used slony for years, works fine for me. And I had some complex replication schemes ;) Feb 26 14:40:02 benbrown: from the 9.0 development docs: http://developer.postgresql.org/pgdocs/postgres/different-replication-solutions.html ... but we should probably move to /msg or #postgresql to stop distracting the meego community :) Feb 26 14:54:46 yeah agreed Feb 26 15:13:19 http://www.xkcd.com/707/ reminds me a bit of MeeGo ;) Feb 26 15:16:28 hahaha Feb 26 15:59:24 hi all Feb 26 15:59:43 I got an LG latop with the USIM slot, anybody knows how to make it use my data plan? Feb 26 16:00:01 according to the hardware spec, seems like a good box to test meego on. Feb 26 16:00:02 ;) Feb 26 16:12:45 !tumble weed Feb 26 16:13:24 * slaine hears the toll of a lonely bell in the distance Feb 26 16:13:34 sorry, no idea Feb 26 16:16:01 @ Feb 26 16:16:02 @ Feb 26 16:16:07 @ Feb 26 16:16:37 (tumble weed) Feb 26 16:18:07 hallo Feb 26 16:18:52 hi Feb 26 16:21:23 are you excited Feb 26 16:23:01 i have milkshake, of course I'm excited Feb 26 16:25:32 CosmoHill: that was a nice tumble weed Feb 26 16:25:43 thanks :) Feb 26 16:25:51 sigh Feb 26 16:25:56 do you think I offended mamoul with my milkshake? Feb 26 16:25:56 want to do soooo much stuff Feb 26 16:26:27 Personally, yes, I think you did. And I can't quit blame mamoul for feeling like that Feb 26 16:26:37 s/quit/quite/ Feb 26 16:26:37 slaine meant: Personally, yes, I think you did. And I can't quite blame mamoul for feeling like that Feb 26 16:26:47 Oooo, fancy Feb 26 16:26:56 wow Feb 26 16:27:07 never saw that before Feb 26 16:27:11 s/saw/seen Feb 26 16:27:33 Ah, it's broken Feb 26 16:27:51 s/Ah/Ahhhh!/ Feb 26 16:28:03 hello Feb 26 16:28:09 s/hello/Hello/ Feb 26 16:28:09 CosmoHill meant: Hello Feb 26 16:28:25 what the fuck Feb 26 16:28:32 s/what the fuck/WTF Feb 26 16:28:36 prolly a lower character limit Feb 26 16:28:43 slaine: / on the end Feb 26 16:29:02 s/what the fuck/WTF/ Feb 26 16:29:03 slaine meant: s/WTF/WTF Feb 26 16:29:07 slaine: I'll stick with fudge now until we find out rules Feb 26 16:29:21 lol Feb 26 16:29:22 s/fudge/full/ Feb 26 16:29:38 I'm watching TV Feb 26 16:29:43 s/TV/Glee/ Feb 26 16:29:43 CosmoHill meant: I'm watching Glee Feb 26 16:29:59 * slaine giggles like a school girl Feb 26 16:30:01 s/Glee/Shiny/ Feb 26 16:30:14 might only be the previous line Feb 26 16:41:27 !help Feb 26 16:41:31 help? Feb 26 16:41:37 * CosmoHill pokes infobot Feb 26 16:59:49 hello everyone. Feb 26 16:59:55 CosmoHill: what are you trying to do? Feb 26 17:00:06 when? Feb 26 17:01:51 th0br0: he was trying to corrupt poor little infobot Feb 26 17:02:07 apparently! burn the witch! ;) Feb 26 17:02:48 * CosmoHill cackle Feb 26 17:35:09 * CosmoHill mews Feb 26 17:37:14 ### damn it Feb 26 17:37:21 I want a meego distro now Feb 26 17:37:36 * CosmoHill pets slaine Feb 26 17:37:51 I'll just get a cuppa instead I guess Feb 26 17:37:52 soon my precious, soon Feb 26 17:38:42 there is no release date atm ? Feb 26 17:39:05 there no nothing no how Feb 26 17:53:30 hi, are the mailing list archives online ? Feb 26 17:54:27 rzr: http://lists.meego.com/ Feb 26 17:55:37 sometime next week sources will go up Feb 26 17:57:05 ok thx in rss feed would be nice too Feb 26 18:08:13 CosmoHill: Did your tea leaves tell you this Feb 26 18:08:33 it's somewhere on the meego website Feb 26 18:08:52 my tea leafs told me i needed a better filter Feb 26 18:11:56 Wholey tea bags batman Feb 26 18:12:13 s/Wholey/Holey/ Feb 26 18:12:13 slaine meant: Holey tea bags batman Feb 26 18:12:19 yay for infobot Feb 26 18:13:14 s/infobot/cosmo/ Feb 26 18:13:21 :( Feb 26 18:13:40 wow Feb 26 18:13:40 CosmoHill is sad, :( Feb 26 18:13:45 s/wow/wozers/ Feb 26 18:13:46 bpeel meant: wozers Feb 26 18:13:49 fun :) Feb 26 18:14:02 s/(/)/ Feb 26 18:14:03 CosmoHill meant: :) Feb 26 18:14:04 bpeel, No, it gets old Feb 26 18:14:13 You're so last hour Feb 26 18:14:33 s/f/ok, not f/ Feb 26 18:14:34 bpeel meant: ok, not fun :) Feb 26 18:14:52 to me that looked like you said "fok" Feb 26 18:15:02 SYNTAX ERROR Feb 26 18:15:16 Right, It's Friday, it's 6:15pm, my work here is done Feb 26 18:15:23 hello Feb 26 18:15:26 I might be on laters Feb 26 18:15:28 s@hello@Hello@ Feb 26 18:15:35 Be seeing you Feb 26 18:15:58 cyas Feb 26 19:41:08 Hello. Feb 26 19:41:32 hey Feb 26 19:49:54 will there be a list of devices running MeeGo? Feb 26 19:50:32 I'd imagine at some point there will be Feb 26 19:50:36 I am a lead developer for the LinuxMCE project, and I am doing an R&D project to build a media director image based on MeeGo code. Feb 26 19:50:37 when ports are made, probably Feb 26 19:51:04 what do you guys use to keep out the script kiddies? Feb 26 19:51:40 a cup of coffee and plugging out the ethernet jack, enjoying a good movie Feb 26 19:51:51 sorry. am being bitten by the ath9k bug in moblin 2.1 :( Feb 26 19:55:06 TSCHAKeee2: is there any connection w/ lmce and xbmc ? Feb 26 19:55:17 No Feb 26 19:55:22 our feature scope is much larger Feb 26 19:55:40 we unify virtually every single aspect of home control.. Lighting, Media, Climate, Security, and Telecom, under a single system Feb 26 19:56:17 A lot of our system was designed before the F/OSS had any equivalents Feb 26 19:56:34 and now, with our last dev cycle over, I want to look to merge in some of these components to replace our aging ones. Feb 26 19:57:15 yea i know Feb 26 19:57:37 but i supposed many stuff can be shared Feb 26 19:57:48 if they wish Feb 26 19:57:51 they don't like us very much Feb 26 19:58:57 :) Feb 26 19:58:59 btw Security, under a single system Feb 26 19:59:16 i think there is a design issue here :) Feb 26 19:59:27 hm? Feb 26 20:00:25 once cracker own your a lmce box , cracker own your house and its habitants :) Feb 26 20:00:43 I am very tired of that argument Feb 26 20:00:55 it's a red herring in fifty different forms. Feb 26 20:01:36 we are well aware that there are issues, and we will solve them Feb 26 20:02:17 what is more important, is that the system exist, so that these issues can be solved, sometimes with multiple approaches, and a rough consensus be found on how to best handle it Feb 26 20:02:24 we are not selling this for profit Feb 26 20:02:37 so there is no short term pressure. Feb 26 20:02:40 it is a research project. Feb 26 20:02:55 linuxmce.com could use an explanation of what it is, on the front page Feb 26 20:02:56 so, if you do have something constructive to say to actually solve the problem Feb 26 20:03:02 then cool. Feb 26 20:03:27 donpdonp: murcel removed the blurb temporarily to rewrite it, and I've asked him to replace it.. I will ask him again. Feb 26 20:03:52 TSCHAKeee2: cool. the project looks interesting. i love home automation :) Feb 26 20:04:06 thank you Feb 26 20:04:10 we go quite a bit further than that Feb 26 20:04:29 for example, all storage devices are consolidated Feb 26 20:04:40 peripherals shared Feb 26 20:04:43 linuxmce is based on pluto isn't it? Feb 26 20:04:57 and it is all tied together with a unified UI and display system. Feb 26 20:05:12 openstandards: quite correct. However, the code base is changing rapidly Feb 26 20:05:26 openstandards: large parts of the pluto code, are being iteratively replaced. Feb 26 20:05:50 yeah i'm sure pluto isn't as good as the code behind lmce Feb 26 20:05:51 mostly because they are no longer needed, or we wish to utilize better technologies Feb 26 20:05:54 * CosmoHill stabs script kiddies Feb 26 20:06:08 openstandards: actually the system they built is quite remarkable Feb 26 20:06:16 openstandards: it was _WAY_ ahead when it was first released Feb 26 20:06:19 openstandards: still is in some areas. Feb 26 20:06:44 but the technology landscape that pluto was released under in 2005, is not the landscape of 2010. Feb 26 20:07:05 and we need to move forward. Feb 26 20:09:08 whoops, sorry... ath9k bug again Feb 26 20:09:21 it would be nice if moblin released an updated kernel/wireless tools to fix this :( Feb 26 20:09:41 the patch has been in the kernel for 4 months Feb 26 20:10:11 no problem i was just teasing Feb 26 20:10:38 ;) Feb 26 20:13:32 do you target arm also ? Feb 26 20:14:46 rzr: currently only for orbiters, but this will change Feb 26 20:15:02 rzr: it is one of my goals to use ARM devices as cores and media directors. Feb 26 20:15:09 this is why MeeGo is so compelling Feb 26 20:15:50 we traditionally targeted linux, windows, and symbian as very one-dimensional platforms Feb 26 20:15:54 but everything has changed. Feb 26 20:16:08 so a lot of stuff is being thrown away and re-done. Feb 26 20:16:44 to support devices that have considerably more processing power than when we started. Feb 26 20:17:30 i remember i've read an article about using SIP for automation Feb 26 20:18:01 well, you could, it's just another signalling protocol Feb 26 20:19:20 seems based on x10 Insteon Feb 26 20:19:25 i donno about them Feb 26 20:19:38 ??? Feb 26 20:20:08 on that page http://wiki.linuxmce.org/index.php/Hardware# Feb 26 20:20:16 we support a bunch of busses.. EIB/KNX, X-10, Insteon, Z-Wave are the big ones....we also support PLCBUS, Clipsal and a few others Feb 26 20:20:23 and more busses can be added very quickly Feb 26 20:20:28 and it is possible to mix and match between them. Feb 26 20:21:13 and it's not _based_ on it Feb 26 20:21:25 we have a central messaging buss that connects virtually every single part of the system together Feb 26 20:21:35 and we have DCE devices to attach to the different automation busses. Feb 26 20:21:38 i am bookmarking the wiki, but i'll think about it once i've found a 0db computer to run as server Feb 26 20:34:09 dammit, my spec file failed cos the date was in the wrong format Feb 26 20:46:26 CosmoHill: you know of rpmlint, do youß Feb 26 20:46:38 rpmlint? no Feb 26 20:47:58 rzr: 0db computer is impossible without ssd's :( Feb 26 20:48:11 (if you want to make it really 0db) Feb 26 20:48:20 I compiled fail2built into an rpm and it says it requires /sbin/runscript Feb 26 21:03:26 arachnist: the power supply is not noiseless :) Feb 26 21:04:19 rzr: well, mine is. but 6x 1.5TB drives are a little noisy, especially when i write stuff Feb 26 21:05:45 you can tell disks to stop rotating if they're idle Feb 26 21:06:01 but that you only want to do when theyre idle for a LONG time, since it increases wear on the drive mechanics Feb 26 21:08:16 that's why i don't spin my server drives down much Feb 26 21:10:24 I have a separate drive for mp3's Hacessed often), and then several drives for less frequently accessed stuff. Works pretty well from a noise perspective Feb 26 21:11:15 ssd is very quite Feb 26 21:11:36 s/quite/quiet/ Feb 26 21:11:37 mikeleib meant: ssd is very quiet Feb 26 21:11:52 Yeah, I'd use ssd for OS drive for sure if I could afford it :) Feb 26 21:11:55 what a helpful chap Feb 26 21:12:01 sure is Feb 26 21:12:10 mikeleib, too quiet Feb 26 21:12:17 It disturbs me. Feb 26 21:12:33 what other tricks can infobot do? Feb 26 21:12:51 factoids Feb 26 21:12:57 ~moblin Feb 26 21:13:01 ~maemo Feb 26 21:13:02 hmm... maemo is http://maemo.nokia.com/ http://maemo.org/ http://www.forum.nokia.com/Technology_Topics/Device_Platforms/Maemo.xhtml Feb 26 21:13:05 Ha! Feb 26 21:13:21 ~blow up Feb 26 21:13:23 * infobot blows up Feb 26 21:13:23 Plus a bunch of random stupid little plugins Feb 26 21:13:26 ~meego Feb 26 21:13:33 ~lart b-man17 Feb 26 21:13:33 * infobot wallops b-man17 with a main rotation server that needs rehubbing. It won't take long Feb 26 21:13:45 lol Feb 26 21:13:53 ~dance Feb 26 21:13:54 <(*.*<) <(*.*)> \(*.*)/ (>*.*)> Feb 26 21:13:59 rofl Feb 26 21:14:09 infobot dances better than buildbot Feb 26 21:14:14 ~burn himself Feb 26 21:14:15 * infobot pours gasoline all over himself, ignites the fire, and then enjoys some toasty marshmallows with the glorious blaze Feb 26 21:14:17 infobot, meego is http://meego.com an opensource distribution for netbooks and mobile devices Feb 26 21:14:18 ShadowJK: okay Feb 26 21:14:27 ~meego Feb 26 21:14:29 extra, extra, read all about it, meego is http://meego.com an opensource distribution for netbooks and mobile devices Feb 26 21:15:40 got the n900 yesterday! Feb 26 21:15:42 * tripzero is happy Feb 26 21:15:59 now... if only ovi navigation ran on it... Feb 26 21:16:02 It's useful for answering FAQs, you can have him/her repeat the answer ;) Feb 26 21:17:04 * ShadowJK suspect #maemo is more offtopic for the current n900, despite Nokia's press release making it sound like everyone and their dog should go to meego Feb 26 21:18:09 um, more ontopic I mean of course :) Feb 26 21:18:26 woof Feb 26 21:19:01 Running something osm based on meego would be awesome of course :) Feb 26 21:20:20 i find the current open source nav apps to be lacking Feb 26 21:20:23 by the way is there a symbian chan on freenod ? Feb 26 21:20:53 I don't know of one Feb 26 21:21:05 there's one for python on symbian, though Feb 26 21:29:42 hi, i was just wondering if nokia or intel have made any sort of announcement concerning when some sorta of beta or test version of meego will be release? i realize that meego was just announced last week so it will probably be quite some time before they release anything but i'm kinda eager to get my hands on it and see what it can do Feb 26 21:30:50 qwertiop, well, there has been some code made public Feb 26 21:30:53 qwertiop: you and me both, :P i think code is arriving, we're just not sure when :P Feb 26 21:30:54 you can certainly play with that Feb 26 21:32:58 ahhh, i remember trying out moblin awhile back and i liked it, i just felt that it would be much better if it had time to mature a bit more and with this whole meego announcement its peeked my curiosity once again Feb 26 21:36:01 I think the official announcement said Q1 2010. so that would mean: sometime before april 1st. Feb 26 21:36:50 well, is it coming out today? ;) Feb 26 21:37:03 no Feb 26 21:37:12 oh, april Feb 26 21:37:12 damnit Feb 26 21:37:16 lol Feb 26 21:37:18 * Stskeeps goes back to waiting Feb 26 21:37:25 haha Feb 26 22:07:37 21:52:02 up 90 days, 0 min, 1 user, load average: 0.15, 0.08, 0.03 Feb 26 22:08:36 oh, is it uptime comparing time? Feb 26 22:08:50 go for it Feb 26 22:09:03 16:08:00 up 104 days, 21:28, 2 users, load average: 0.08, 0.02, 0.01 Feb 26 22:09:26 give me 14 days Feb 26 22:09:30 ...after you reboot Feb 26 22:09:38 make that 15 Feb 26 22:09:57 00:09:51 up 9 days, 22:27, load average: 0.17, 0.10, 0.1 <- my phone ;( Feb 26 22:09:59 hmm. i'd have a lot of users upset at me if it was rebooted right now. Feb 26 22:10:21 it would be 360 Feb 26 22:10:30 my record is 400+ days. I had to shutdown because they cut the power to the building Feb 26 22:10:31 * CosmoHill shakes fist at long power cut Feb 26 22:10:56 sounds like you guys need to buy some generators :P Feb 26 22:10:57 personal best: 18:58:53 up 374 days, 21:15, 1 user, load average: 0.32, 0.47, 0.24 Feb 26 22:11:17 actually the UPS could have taken it but i shut down cos it was very long Feb 26 22:11:25 2 mins later the power came back :( Feb 26 22:12:04 how about MeeGo (Maemo/Moblin) uptimes? :P Feb 26 22:12:26 i'd imagine it would be in the hours Feb 26 22:13:22 I had a month on my N900 at one point :) Feb 26 22:13:34 you just put it to sleep? Feb 26 22:14:02 my moblin box boots in 5 seconds. I shut it down all the time Feb 26 22:14:25 mine goes NVIDIA! then doesn't work properly Feb 26 22:14:54 CosmoHill, it's my main phone too, can't just put it to sleep for a month :) Feb 26 22:14:58 i've messed with the kernel too much so my n900 has been up to a week max i think. Feb 26 22:15:12 well with phones you leave it on and charge it Feb 26 22:15:33 my main phone is a SE k800i, it shuts down randomly Feb 26 22:16:04 what a shame that moblin doesnt support nvidia Feb 26 22:16:21 it's laggy Feb 26 22:16:25 nvidia isn't exactly forthcoming Feb 26 22:16:31 then you install nvidia drivers Feb 26 22:16:37 then the UI breaks Feb 26 22:16:42 yep Feb 26 22:17:03 I've heard that installing latest clutter should resolve the issue Feb 26 22:17:16 clutter shouldn't break on most nvidia cards Feb 26 22:17:27 but I didnt manage to build latest clutter for moblin Feb 26 22:17:38 it doesnt on gnome 2.30 Feb 26 22:17:40 what version of the nvidia driver are you using? Feb 26 22:17:44 well it does Feb 26 22:17:45 on mine Feb 26 22:17:47 195.30.06 Feb 26 22:17:54 195 is unstable Feb 26 22:17:54 VLJ: from source? Feb 26 22:17:58 err 195.36.03 Feb 26 22:17:59 yes Feb 26 22:18:33 i'm using 195 on desktops with 9-series chips. Feb 26 22:18:52 * CosmoHill needs clutter Feb 26 22:19:05 how did you do that daumas ? Feb 26 22:19:19 what's the currently maemo5 ui done in? clutter? Feb 26 22:19:28 you used stock moblin live image ? Feb 26 22:19:31 VLJ: Fedora :P Feb 26 22:19:31 s/currently/current* Feb 26 22:19:32 yep tripzero Feb 26 22:19:45 ho Feb 26 22:20:02 and there is no issue with panels ? Feb 26 22:20:15 in moblin ui Feb 26 22:21:34 inside fedora Feb 26 22:21:40 so i need to recompile clutter from source/ Feb 26 22:21:48 theorically Feb 26 22:21:55 VLJ: i'm using gnome on my desktops, not moblin/mutter, sorry. Feb 26 22:21:59 as far as i know I'm updated them Feb 26 22:22:06 but it's not that easy Feb 26 22:22:26 ho ok daumas Feb 26 22:28:07 the moblin jhbuild is really crappy Feb 26 22:28:18 there is so much unresolved dependencies Feb 26 22:31:16 * CosmoHill grabs his laptop Feb 26 22:31:45 tripzero: maemo uses hildon/osso, which is proprietary i think. Feb 26 22:36:57 daumas: libhildon is open source. Feb 26 22:37:14 As is libhildon-desktop. Feb 26 22:37:52 tripzero: It's mostly GTK+ based, with some use of clutter by the WM. Feb 26 22:38:31 the flick scroll etc seem to be ogl based Feb 26 22:39:02 ogl? Feb 26 22:39:26 Yes, the desktop uses clutter, which uses OpenGL ES. Feb 26 22:39:55 Actually, I don't know for sure that the desktop use clutter to do that. Feb 26 22:40:55 i need to sort out my boot, have to use command line Feb 26 22:41:55 does the x86 system use gles? Feb 26 22:42:16 no Feb 26 22:42:36 gles stand for Opengl for Embedded System Feb 26 22:42:47 * CosmoHill logs into his moblin box Feb 26 22:42:51 now what do i need tod Feb 26 22:42:53 murrayc: hildon-desktop is not linked against libclutter, so i don't think so. Feb 26 22:42:58 as there is no "true" x86 embedded system Feb 26 22:43:24 daumas > the latest hildon-desktop didnot merge to gnome yet Feb 26 22:43:27 the WM on the N900 is clutter-based Feb 26 22:43:32 the desktop isn't Feb 26 22:44:12 thiago: what is the window manager? i'm brain dead atm Feb 26 22:44:14 i have applications fail to start on moblin Feb 26 22:44:28 I've recompiled xorg Feb 26 22:45:26 which applications ? Feb 26 22:45:33 at the moment, all of them Feb 26 22:45:34 bbr Feb 26 22:46:12 I don't remember what it is Feb 26 22:46:22 I'm just repeating what I remember being told Feb 26 22:46:48 ah, so don't shoot the messenger :P Feb 26 22:47:26 back Feb 26 22:47:39 windows manager is the "software" that draw your windows Feb 26 22:47:52 http://black-flag.co.uk/files/broken-ubuntumolbin.jpg Feb 26 22:48:16 ie that place and render the windows Feb 26 22:48:27 VLJ: i was asking for the program/project name Feb 26 22:48:32 ho Feb 26 22:48:43 err sorry Feb 26 22:49:03 i think it's clutter Feb 26 22:49:30 clutter is a GTK library, not a desktop Feb 26 22:49:37 i forgot the -o command and now curl is throwing up on my terminal Feb 26 22:49:38 *library for GTK Feb 26 22:50:14 what did you do CosmoHill ? Feb 26 22:50:21 download cutter Feb 26 22:50:26 -o directs the output Feb 26 22:50:31 don't Intel say the gma500 is an "embedded" gpu (and use that as the excuse for it not to be supported with Free drivers like their "non-embedded" chips). and isn't it also essentially the same chip as is in the iPhone 3GS (sgx 535) and very similar to what's in the N900 (sgx500)? Feb 26 22:50:38 and put it inside ubuntu/moblin Feb 26 22:51:08 bfree, they don't own it, they can't support it Feb 26 22:51:12 bfree: Intel didn't make the chip Feb 26 22:51:12 is my theory Feb 26 22:51:22 bfree: in fact the whole US15W is intended to become an embedded system Feb 26 22:52:00 but in fact, there is nothing but netbook that use atom Zseries/GMA500 Feb 26 22:52:33 bfree: I don't think intel ever said gma500 is embedded Feb 26 22:52:42 or used that as an excuse Feb 26 22:53:11 now how do i configure clutter Feb 26 22:53:13 in fact they didnt speak about it :p Feb 26 22:53:14 http://developer.intel.com/design/chipsets/embedded/SCHUS15W/index.htm Feb 26 22:53:23 some random internet rambling dude might make up any excuse... I've seen lots of ramblings Feb 26 22:53:30 bfree: sure intel makes embedded chipsets too Feb 26 22:54:11 * CosmoHill needs the moblin config for moblin Feb 26 22:54:25 those don't tend to end up in netbooks; netbooks tend to pick the price sensitive packaging option etc Feb 26 22:54:26 I never found a device running under x86 except computers Feb 26 22:55:02 VLJ: some models of blackberry run x86 Feb 26 22:55:08 iirc Feb 26 22:55:21 ho Feb 26 22:55:27 lots of airplanes use x86 ;) Feb 26 22:55:38 hah Feb 26 22:55:49 and a whole bunch of "small embedded" does to, includign settop boxes Feb 26 22:55:52 there are lots of embedded systems out there running x86.. zillions upon zillions Feb 26 22:56:15 x86 dominates the pc/104 space Feb 26 22:56:28 x86 dominates the compactPCI space Feb 26 22:56:40 x86 dominates the SBC space Feb 26 22:57:41 how about mobile embedded tho - when you dont have the safety rope Feb 26 22:57:52 safety rope? Feb 26 22:57:58 power cable Feb 26 22:57:59 lcuk: dfine mobile embedded Feb 26 22:58:03 ah Feb 26 22:58:09 well ... see above ;) Feb 26 22:58:30 yes, they all look to be home/office based? Feb 26 22:58:34 lcuk, get one of those nokia phones that take the rare BL-10C battery. It's about a month of standby or so ;-) Feb 26 22:58:46 * CosmoHill downloads clutter Feb 26 22:59:10 the space shuttle also uses x86 Feb 26 22:59:13 80386 Feb 26 22:59:28 doesnt that have RTG? Feb 26 22:59:29 most satellites, too Feb 26 22:59:42 ARM still has more volume, though Feb 26 22:59:45 shuttle doesn't have a radio thermal generator.. Feb 26 22:59:57 It has fuel cells though Feb 26 23:00:20 chips going into space need to be radioation hardened :) Feb 26 23:00:26 and what about "powerPC" based system ? Feb 26 23:00:34 Galileo has a tape drive, state of the art :D Feb 26 23:00:50 powerpc thrives in consoles Feb 26 23:00:53 yep Feb 26 23:01:00 but anything else ? Feb 26 23:01:06 Galileo does exist ? ;) Feb 26 23:01:07 rock solid reliable. ShadowJK yeah my mistake about shuttle Feb 26 23:01:24 not sure I've seen anything new on a powerpc lately other than consoles Feb 26 23:01:35 thiago_home: they have thinkpad t61p on iss Feb 26 23:02:16 (not for flight control though) Feb 26 23:02:44 VLJ, I mean the probe that went to jupiter.. not the gps thing.. maybe I remembered name wrong Feb 26 23:03:27 in fact they share the same name Feb 26 23:04:05 anyway, look at the Apollo guidance computer for a real computer ;( Feb 26 23:04:17 the one onboard the command module and lunar module Feb 26 23:05:10 iirc in one of the flights they reprogrammed it by punching in new opcodes on the numeric keypad which was the only input device :D Feb 26 23:05:31 dammit Feb 26 23:05:46 does it work CosmoHill ? Feb 26 23:05:54 can't get it to configure yet Feb 26 23:06:10 *** No gtk-doc support *** Feb 26 23:07:41 you're under ubuntu ? Feb 26 23:07:46 moblin Feb 26 23:07:49 try apt-get install gtk-doc Feb 26 23:07:50 err Feb 26 23:07:55 yum install gtk-doc Feb 26 23:08:18 I seem to have so much dev stuff on here :( Feb 26 23:08:31 probably not a bad thing since I'm learning C++ Feb 26 23:08:42 there are a lot of dependencies Feb 26 23:10:24 installed gettext-devel too Feb 26 23:10:32 * CosmoHill stabs Feb 26 23:10:35 wasn't needed Feb 26 23:11:10 thinking different, whats the easiest way to wire up a wall mount display system and are there any potential elegent fuel cell designs i could top up like watering a plant :) Feb 26 23:12:21 just pour something in the top and have it run for a couple of weeks Feb 26 23:12:35 *** No glib-gettextize *** Feb 26 23:15:25 you have glib-devel ? Feb 26 23:15:54 no such package Feb 26 23:16:00 glib ? Feb 26 23:16:43 gtk2-devel ? Feb 26 23:17:08 glib2-devel Feb 26 23:17:20 ah ha Feb 26 23:17:21 that's it Feb 26 23:17:30 yay Feb 26 23:17:41 now i can run autogeh...oh it failed Feb 26 23:19:25 message ? Feb 26 23:20:04 http://pastebin.cross-lfs.org/6785 Feb 26 23:20:51 are you sure this is the error message ? Feb 26 23:21:02 I mean Feb 26 23:21:08 there is nothing before ? Feb 26 23:21:24 http://pastebin.cross-lfs.org/6786 Feb 26 23:22:27 if you install gnome-common ? Feb 26 23:23:14 i don't have that Feb 26 23:23:22 libtool ? Feb 26 23:23:43 i have that Feb 26 23:23:49 try libtool or libtool-devel Feb 26 23:23:54 i think Feb 26 23:24:10 yum info package_name ? Feb 26 23:24:17 yum install libtool Feb 26 23:25:17 oo Feb 26 23:25:27 checking for XDAMAGE extension... configure: error: not found Feb 26 23:25:28 dammit Feb 26 23:25:39 libx11-devel Feb 26 23:25:43 or x11-devel Feb 26 23:25:50 something with x11 and devel Feb 26 23:26:03 i think there is a libxdamage as well? Feb 26 23:26:24 at least there is on this ubuntu box Feb 26 23:26:35 libX11-devel. Feb 26 23:26:50 already installed Feb 26 23:27:09 perhaps there is a libxdamage as tripzero said Feb 26 23:28:18 installed libXdamage-devel Feb 26 23:28:53 that got it Feb 26 23:29:26 so now it works ? Feb 26 23:29:35 nope Feb 26 23:29:39 onto the next error Feb 26 23:29:42 installing cairo-devel now Feb 26 23:31:12 bollocks Feb 26 23:31:34 No package 'pangocairo' found Feb 26 23:31:34 No package 'gdk-pixbuf-2.0' found Feb 26 23:33:13 pango-devel :) Feb 26 23:33:21 * CosmoHill is going one package at a time Feb 26 23:36:32 you're not stuck ? ;) Feb 26 23:36:42 stuck on the gdk one Feb 26 23:36:44 i'm quite interessed in your results Feb 26 23:36:54 try libgtk2-devel Feb 26 23:36:57 I am saying everyting do do cos i keep logs Feb 26 23:37:05 i must say you're being very helpful Feb 26 23:37:09 and yum is awesome Feb 26 23:37:14 or gconf Feb 26 23:37:14 * CosmoHill hasn't used it much before Feb 26 23:41:30 gtk2-devel, found you Feb 26 23:42:29 * CosmoHill dances Feb 26 23:42:38 yum install "pkgconfig(cairo)" Feb 26 23:42:47 for things where configure requires a pkg config thing Feb 26 23:42:54 eg Feb 26 23:43:04 yum install "pkgconfig(gdk-pixbuf-2.0)" Feb 26 23:43:11 will install all you need to fix that configure thing Feb 26 23:43:29 where were you half an hour ago! Feb 26 23:43:50 in a bloody meeting ;( Feb 26 23:44:17 arjan: Oh, that's nice to know. Feb 26 23:44:48 I'm in bed :) Feb 26 23:44:51 well on bed Feb 26 23:45:01 damn you, less than 2 mins to compile clutter Feb 26 23:45:23 you spend more time with handling dependencies than compiling the thing Feb 26 23:45:24 why are you compiling it? Feb 26 23:45:37 now install it ? Feb 26 23:46:10 * CosmoHill watches X repeatedly restart and growls Feb 26 23:46:49 it seems not to work :/ Feb 26 23:46:53 ali1234: i think it might be the cause of programs not starting on my nvidia moblin laptop Feb 26 23:47:05 * CosmoHill goes to init 3 to make it stop flashing Feb 26 23:47:22 probably. but i doubt recompiling it will help much Feb 26 23:47:32 you may try to recompile x11 with xinerama support Feb 26 23:47:35 do you have the nvidia driver installed? Feb 26 23:48:04 http://www.madeo.co.uk/?p=139 Feb 26 23:48:13 he says it could help Feb 26 23:48:51 ali1234: yes Feb 26 23:49:53 i found another guide Feb 26 23:49:58 didn't have that Feb 26 23:50:14 for now tell me how to force install clutter again Feb 26 23:51:06 sudo make install ? Feb 26 23:51:19 when you have build it Feb 26 23:51:37 i meant from the moblin repo so that it works Feb 26 23:51:52 via yum Feb 26 23:52:05 err Feb 26 23:52:12 is there a --reinstall command ? Feb 26 23:52:31 you did a make install over the top of having the rpm package installed? Feb 26 23:52:39 welcome to hell :) Feb 26 23:52:54 http://hacktux.com/yum/force/reinstall Feb 26 23:53:04 thanks Feb 26 23:53:17 the last one should do it Feb 26 23:54:04 yeah, so, nvidia needs xinerama enabled in xorg. and it isn't enabled in moblin's xorg Feb 26 23:54:10 so you need to recompile it Feb 26 23:54:43 ali1234 you managed to get moblin working on a nvidia card ? Feb 26 23:54:47 or use the rpms madeo made Feb 26 23:54:55 no, i'm just reading the links and a bit of google Feb 26 23:54:58 ok Feb 26 23:55:23 good news, I've reinstalled clutter Feb 26 23:55:47 bad news: I've uninstalled 28 other packages Feb 26 23:55:56 gotta love rpm Feb 26 23:56:48 it's yum Feb 26 23:57:15 it's me thinking yum would install it all again Feb 26 23:58:33 you can run moblin with vesa drivers ? Feb 26 23:58:45 not without rebuilding Feb 26 23:59:17 moblin is really build for use with 100% intel hardware Feb 26 23:59:20 you really don't want to run a 3D GUI on top of vesa Feb 26 23:59:22 built* Feb 26 23:59:34 no but you would be sure it works Feb 26 23:59:37 I mean Feb 26 23:59:51 it's SLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW Feb 26 23:59:54 to know if moblin ui can work even with 28 missing packages Feb 27 00:00:04 arjan: that is why I'm installed nvidia Feb 27 00:00:08 does moblin need composite extension? Feb 27 00:00:19 yes, moblin uses compositing Feb 27 00:00:27 that's annoying Feb 27 00:00:36 composite and xinerama don't work at the same time Feb 27 00:00:45 are you sure ? Feb 27 00:00:48 but composite and xrandr do Feb 27 00:00:48 so nvidia needs an xorg option that you would never possibly want to use Feb 27 00:00:51 CosmoHill, does nouveau not work? Feb 27 00:00:55 ali1234: exactly Feb 27 00:01:04 since older devices have lower resolutions, is it more feasible on those than what you think Feb 27 00:01:04 nvidia sucks :) Feb 27 00:01:04 ali1234: since it does nto work, moblin does not enable it Feb 27 00:01:11 moblin has nouveau? Feb 27 00:01:15 not currently Feb 27 00:01:23 in november it was clearly not ready Feb 27 00:01:34 maybe, soon? needs testing Feb 27 00:01:34 nv? Feb 27 00:01:38 no nv either Feb 27 00:01:47 useless without 3d support Feb 27 00:01:49 2.6.33 should have support for it Feb 27 00:01:51 nv is like vesa Feb 27 00:01:55 ali1234 I got compositing on every distro with nvidia :/ Feb 27 00:02:02 arjan: nvidia driver will do composite fine, it will just disable xinerama. but it won't work at all if xorg was compiled without xinerama support Feb 27 00:02:08 well if it helps my moblin installed is screwed Feb 27 00:02:12 yep Feb 27 00:02:28 but xinerama and composite don't work together on any driver, and never can Feb 27 00:02:40 ok Feb 27 00:03:08 but nvidia drivers doesnt work without xinerama, although the first thing it does is to disable it Feb 27 00:03:22 sounds like a crappy driver Feb 27 00:03:26 it can use xinerama if oyu disable composite Feb 27 00:03:45 they are fundamentally incompatible at the server level Feb 27 00:04:19 yep but there is no need to enable xinerama Feb 27 00:04:38 yeah. the crappy part is that it dies if xorg was compiled without xinerama Feb 27 00:04:59 it should just ignore the fact that it isn't there to disable Feb 27 00:05:10 good luck getting nvidia to fix it though :) Feb 27 00:05:29 the crappy part is that xrandr is not enabled with nvidia drivers :/ Feb 27 00:05:46 yes it is Feb 27 00:05:52 twinview Feb 27 00:05:54 i mean xrandr 1.2 Feb 27 00:06:02 yep twinview Feb 27 00:06:08 but twinview is not xrandr Feb 27 00:06:12 nvidia may suck, but let's hope intel comes out with a new chipset of their very own design, that supports VA-API and gives h264 main and high profile hw accel :) Feb 27 00:06:34 it does not work with integrated xrandr manager inside desktop environnement Feb 27 00:06:39 nvidia pay suck but I didn't have to pay for this laptop Feb 27 00:07:16 what is the package that installs the whole UI? Feb 27 00:07:24 i have no idea Feb 27 00:07:38 or maybe a 4-core atom to decode h264 with :D Feb 27 00:08:06 it would be a waste of power Feb 27 00:08:39 ShadowJK: that mine just run flash Feb 27 00:08:43 JUST Feb 27 00:09:16 my atom 330 can *almost* decode very low motion 1080p h264 :) Feb 27 00:09:17 almost! Feb 27 00:09:23 damn you Feb 27 00:09:41 my powerbook sets whatever it is on on fire when i use normal youtube Feb 27 00:10:34 GMA 500 should be able to decode anything at 1080p Feb 27 00:10:57 but in fact it doesnt on youtube with flash 10.1 :/ Feb 27 00:11:38 GMA500 is free and open and very well documented for all to see. Feb 27 00:13:17 VLJ: Tried the third beta? Feb 27 00:13:21 tricore would do it for sure, quad core would probably ensure even hollywood shakycam actionfests decoded in time Feb 27 00:13:24 (with ffmpeg-mt) Feb 27 00:13:26 yes Feb 27 00:13:27 i heard flash isn't going to support hw accelerated decode for awhile Feb 27 00:13:29 (on linux) Feb 27 00:13:34 And you know, flash has all this extra things going on Feb 27 00:13:36 Oh. Great. Feb 27 00:13:37 on windows seven I myust admit Feb 27 00:13:41 must Feb 27 00:14:06 Because my lowly Intel chipset on my macbook now is supported. Feb 27 00:14:22 what is it ? Feb 27 00:14:41 It takes the decoded stream, converts it back into RGB, blends the UI components onto the video, blits to screen or converts back to yuv for blitting onto screen.. Just because a system can play back 1080p h264 doesn't mean it will be able to do it under flash, even if flash uses hw decode accels available.. Feb 27 00:16:33 yep but I think that decoding stream is more power consuming the rest Feb 27 00:16:40 than* Feb 27 00:18:27 If only desktop CPUs weren't so enormously powerful maybe adobe would give up at some point, and convert their UI overlay to YUV and blit it ontop of the video instead as a subpicture stream.. Feb 27 00:18:37 sure :) Feb 27 00:18:39 * CosmoHill needs a virtual package that installs the whole UI Feb 27 00:18:39 but it sure doubles or triples the bandwidth requirements to play something through flash instead of a normal player Feb 27 00:18:57 cosmohill > try mutter-moblin ? Feb 27 00:19:03 or moblin-panel-myzone ? Feb 27 00:19:53 by the way, are HTML5 enabled browser supporting hardware decoding ? Feb 27 00:20:35 nope, neither Feb 27 00:21:47 oo Feb 27 00:21:49 moblin-mutter ? ;) Feb 27 00:21:50 mutter, did something Feb 27 00:21:54 ? Feb 27 00:22:06 i used to have empathy start up and that was the only thing in X11 Feb 27 00:23:55 but you dont have moblin ui Feb 27 00:24:09 i have a pretty curser and a background Feb 27 00:26:54 i'm building gnome 2.30 with jhbuild Feb 27 00:27:12 i'd like to build moblin afterward using package from gnome 2.30 Feb 27 00:27:14 jh? Feb 27 00:27:20 it's a tool Feb 27 00:27:33 Jeremy Huntworth? Feb 27 00:27:46 http://git.moblin.org/cgit.cgi/moblin2-jhbuild/tree/README Feb 27 00:28:12 it does everything for you : git cloning, configure, build, resolving dependencies if possible Feb 27 00:29:23 nevertheless moblin2-jhbuild has a lot of unresolved dependencies Feb 27 00:29:35 so I'm building gnome with it, to get fresh package Feb 27 00:29:44 ooo Feb 27 00:29:54 dammit Feb 27 00:30:01 oh i have something Feb 27 00:30:09 ? Feb 27 00:32:17 i clicked on something, it opened nicely and now X won't stop restatrting Feb 27 00:32:28 now i have an error message Feb 27 00:33:02 which is...? Feb 27 00:33:11 i open the panel, click something and it restarts] Feb 27 00:33:26 same thing i had before i screwed up moblin Feb 27 00:34:40 you can rebuild mutter too, perhaps the problem comes from here Feb 27 00:35:12 sadly there is no error log when running on a nvidia card Feb 27 00:36:36 I go to sleep, see you ! Feb 27 00:38:49 damn Feb 27 00:42:28 meh sod it Feb 27 00:49:31 joopajoo Feb 27 01:14:58 Hmm, i `git clone git://git.moblin.org/moblin2-jhbuild && cd moblin2-jhbuild && make install && jhbuild-moblin2` but i get: "Unable to find JHBuild in PATH" Feb 27 01:33:43 quick question - i have a lot of C++ experience and am looking to get involved - should i buy a device or wait and just use an emulator - are new devices on the horizon? Feb 27 01:40:14 qt is more than c++ Feb 27 01:43:39 so you suggest I shouldn't get involved because i don't know qt already?? Feb 27 01:43:59 no I do not Feb 27 01:45:32 but I think you should study qt Feb 27 01:47:49 considering i've worked on c/win32 mfc atl com gtk i'm pretty confident the qt part will be learning another framework Feb 27 01:48:42 okay Feb 27 01:48:56 i'm more interested in whether investment into existing devices like n900 are worth the personal money at this time Feb 27 01:49:25 or, new devices are on the horizon Feb 27 01:49:27 :) Feb 27 01:49:46 There are always new devices on the horizon Feb 27 01:50:02 heh, true Feb 27 01:50:22 let's say 1-2 month time frame Feb 27 01:50:30 If your aim is stricly meego, then I'd wait. Feb 27 01:50:40 If your aim is QT, then anything that runs QT, including N900, is viable Feb 27 01:51:03 If you want the best GNU/Linux phone available, then N900 is for you Feb 27 01:51:29 I seriously doubt any meego device is coming the next 1-2 months :) Feb 27 01:51:41 really? Feb 27 01:51:52 Well maybe something netbook-ish? Feb 27 01:52:02 right, will there be an SDK in that time? Feb 27 01:52:24 mrm, let's hope so :) Feb 27 01:52:43 great thanks everyone! Feb 27 01:52:58 If you're new the QT, I think there's alot to investigate before the meego/device specific things appear Feb 27 01:53:50 well, i have other motivation which is i'm tired of my iphone and blackberry tour Feb 27 01:53:54 lol Feb 27 01:55:13 yikes - kids are home - chaos - thanks for the help **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Feb 27 02:59:56 2010