**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 03 02:59:58 2010
Mar 03 07:01:53 <aspidites> the meego site seems unchanged for days now. is the only activity happening in the mailing lists?
Mar 03 07:02:28 <leinir> aspidites: they're working at several hundred percent steam at getting the code ready for shipping, i suspect that's what you're seeing the effects of
Mar 03 07:02:45 <leinir> (this was also mentioned on the mailing lists)
Mar 03 07:03:13 <aspidites> leinir: really didn't want to wade through the "rpm sucks, why not deb" posts to find that info, lol
Mar 03 07:03:53 <aspidites> makes sense though thought maybe meego was suffering from the same "mum's the word" sickness that nokia is
Mar 03 07:04:40 <leinir> aspidites: Yeah, i don't blame you ;)
Mar 03 07:04:50 <aspidites> at least in respect to maemo. pyside and qt I have been thoroghly impressed with. especially Qt's lab blogs
Mar 03 07:05:36 <leinir> i've not really been that much a part of the maemo community to be able to tell :)
Mar 03 07:05:49 <leinir> But yes, Qt is a different story entirely, you don't get much more open than that :)
Mar 03 07:06:07 <leinir> (and the last vestiges of not-open are being fixed, of course ;) )
Mar 03 07:07:03 <pupnik_> nokia has done good things there
Mar 03 07:07:41 <aspidites> was sceptical when they aquired Qt, but they certainly proved me wrong.
Mar 03 07:08:07 <aspidites> 360 degrees result from what I was expecting
Mar 03 07:09:21 <leinir> Hehe, i'm an incurable optimist with things like that - i guess that's why i've a hard time seeing why people are so keen on catching the nearest waahmbulance on meego too ;)
Mar 03 07:11:04 <aspidites> haven't caught the wambulance yet. just called for a pawamedic :). really i'm happy with my device, save for the fading sound issue that nokia has failed to fix (sent in for warranty repair)
Mar 03 07:11:32 <aspidites> really hoping it's a firmware issue (3 updates later)
Mar 03 07:11:43 <leinir> *nods* Oh absolutely, it was not an accusation :)
Mar 03 07:12:00 <leinir> It is just something which seems prevalent in the wider community :)
Mar 03 07:12:05 <tybollt> aspidites: fading sound? You mean the problem w/ sound dissapearing when making phone calls?
Mar 03 07:12:22 <aspidites> tybollt: yep. then spontaneously coming back
Mar 03 07:12:30 <aspidites> tybollt: if i'm lucky
Mar 03 07:12:35 <tybollt> aspidites: I've that too
Mar 03 07:12:43 <tybollt> aspidites: and apparently it is fairly common
Mar 03 07:13:22 <aspidites> tybollt: i've noticed. I need to update in that thread actually. I reported that itwas solved after nokia returned it.... was true for about an hour. back to "normal". or should that be abismal?
Mar 03 07:13:41 <tybollt> aspidites: it is due to the pins connecting base with earpiece in the slider not being properly connected (mechanical problem).
Mar 03 07:13:50 <aspidites> the good news is of the 2500 minutes I have on my rate plan, I only use about 400
Mar 03 07:14:12 <aspidites> tybollt: thats what I thought. so why didn't nokia fix it? (not that you work for them)
Mar 03 07:14:29 <tybollt> aspidites: well... did you try pressing the slider piece against the base a bit? That works every time for me.
Mar 03 07:14:49 <GeneralAntilles> Nokia Care . . . doesn't.
Mar 03 07:15:43 <tybollt> aspidites: right on, that is why my phone is not going into the shop. See my nokia repair center forces you to sign an agreement upon handing in the phone where you promise to pay a lot of money to them if no fault was found on the phone
Mar 03 07:16:11 <tybollt> GeneralAntilles++
Mar 03 07:16:29 <tybollt> GeneralAntilles: although, they care up until they have your money, that's when they stop =)
Mar 03 07:18:29 <aspidites> they had my phone for 5 days before they decided to do anything with it. numerous calls, escalations, etc. finally 3 people called me back and explained that my address wasn't sent in with my phone :|. Then they explained there wasw a "software defect".
Mar 03 07:18:55 <aspidites> translation - they reflashed my phone, threw it in a USPS priority mail envelope and sent it  back to me
Mar 03 07:19:14 <aspidites> if I wanted to lose data I could have flashed it myself. thank god for rsync
Mar 03 07:19:41 <pupnik_> GeneralAntilles: what is going to be "upstream" distro to meego?
Mar 03 07:19:44 <aspidites> or ala, or vishnu, or pope, or whoever you care to worship. self for you narcisists :)
Mar 03 07:19:53 <GeneralAntilles> pupnik_, MeeGo.
Mar 03 07:20:35 <aspidites> GeneralAntilles: so rpm packaging system, but all repos are meego? no fedora, suse, etc base, right?
Mar 03 07:20:46 <GeneralAntilles> As far as I'm aware.
Mar 03 07:21:03 <pupnik_> seems like a recipe for no community ports
Mar 03 07:21:21 * GeneralAntilles shrugs.
Mar 03 07:21:32 <GeneralAntilles> A topic for discussion by better minds than mine.
Mar 03 07:21:44 <GeneralAntilles> There seem to be plenty of good arguments on both sides.
Mar 03 07:23:00 <pupnik_> and here we were making difficult progress to "just build the .deb"
Mar 03 07:23:13 <timeless_mbp2> aspidites: you realize that 360degrees from a point is that very same point, right?
Mar 03 07:24:01 <timeless_mbp2> tybollt: the no fault penalty sounds like what Welho my finnish cable provider forces me to do
Mar 03 07:25:32 <tybollt> timeless_mbp2: :-/
Mar 03 07:26:00 <timeless_mbp2> i'm assuming it's standard finnish business practices
Mar 03 07:26:10 <timeless_mbp2> "we don't want to be bothered by you, so we'll discourage any interaction"
Mar 03 07:26:23 <timeless_mbp2> "don't worry, the token fee we list doesn't actually cover our expenses"
Mar 03 10:34:00 <alden> anyone participating in the intel atom developer program?
Mar 03 10:34:22 * alden looking to contribute somehow.. would be nice to work with/under someone
Mar 03 10:36:20 <slaine> good question alden, I wondered what was happening with that once MeeGo was announced
Mar 03 10:36:21 <slaine> ]
Mar 03 10:37:44 <alden> well they announced the second round challenge after the merger
Mar 03 10:38:23 <slaine> ah, haven't seen that
Mar 03 10:40:15 <alden> http://appdeveloper.intel.com/en-us/article/million-dollar-development-fund
Mar 03 10:48:07 <AleDream> Ciao a tutti :)))
Mar 03 10:58:56 <juergbi> arjan: fyi, the stat refresh every 5 minutes has been removed from tracker master
Mar 03 11:05:23 <koupsa> hello all
Mar 03 11:06:59 <Stskeeps> lo
Mar 03 13:06:42 <th0br0> hello everyone
Mar 03 13:08:07 <Stskeeps> morning th0br0
Mar 03 13:09:28 <th0br0> i guess there hasn't been any news in the past say 4 days, Stskeeps?
Mar 03 13:10:20 <Stskeeps> not afaik
Mar 03 13:10:32 <th0br0> k :)
Mar 03 13:10:38 <th0br0> well, the channel was pretty quiet after all
Mar 03 13:10:44 <Stskeeps> yeah
Mar 03 13:11:00 <Stskeeps> worrying that when sources do come, people have left the building
Mar 03 13:11:00 <Stskeeps> :P
Mar 03 13:11:02 <th0br0> it's a shame though, i hope we'll get some more life in here once we get a new announcement
Mar 03 13:11:08 <th0br0> haha, yeah, i'm worrying about that, too
Mar 03 13:11:33 <Stskeeps> some marketing person can probably write a paper on how not to launch a open source project based on this ;)
Mar 03 13:12:21 <th0br0> well, it's the same as with symbian, isn't it?
Mar 03 13:13:06 <th0br0> i mean, you can't compile symbian yet and so it's pretty much similar to the code dumps google's been doing everywhere.
Mar 03 13:13:22 <zaheerm> so the marketing announcement was probably made too early...as people just see some nice press and no substance behind it
Mar 03 13:13:30 <th0br0> no, it was for that mobile world ocngress
Mar 03 13:13:32 <zaheerm> th0br0, well at least with symbian the code is there
Mar 03 13:13:35 <th0br0> true zaheerm
Mar 03 13:13:54 <zaheerm> the fact it only compiles with some random compiler is besides the point
Mar 03 13:14:08 <zaheerm> people can actually fix the compile errors with gcc
Mar 03 13:14:28 <zaheerm> th0br0, so yes announcing it at mwc seems premature
Mar 03 13:15:05 <zaheerm> th0br0, however supposedly it got them a whole load of people willing to commit their app dev resources to write stuff for meego...
Mar 03 13:15:26 <tybollt> th0br0: "a new announcement" LOL what do you mean by that?
Mar 03 13:15:53 <th0br0> tybollt: i was referring to the code here.
Mar 03 13:16:19 <tybollt> ;)
Mar 03 13:16:19 <zaheerm> tybollt, the announcement, our code is now open and developed openly at "blahblahblah git repos"
Mar 03 13:16:30 <th0br0> yeah
Mar 03 13:16:59 <X-Fade> Announcement was not for developers, but policy makers in companies and investors.
Mar 03 13:17:15 <tybollt> I see
Mar 03 13:17:26 <th0br0> But still... ;)
Mar 03 13:17:28 <X-Fade> At least that is what it looks like.
Mar 03 13:17:39 <tybollt> so we are waiting for a Balmeresque gypsying around a stage yelling DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS DEVELOPERS, then? :)
Mar 03 13:17:53 <th0br0> I guess so.
Mar 03 13:18:02 <th0br0> But please, he *must* shout "I LOVE THIS COMPANY!"
Mar 03 13:18:08 <zaheerm> yah well mwc is meant only for policy makers and investors
Mar 03 13:18:23 <zaheerm> the show itself was pretty shitty
Mar 03 13:19:43 <leinir> X-Fade: Yeah - the lack of any technical details definitely hinted at that :)
Mar 03 13:20:21 <zaheerm> the only saving grace for my money spent on flight/hotel and taking time off work was the free nexus one at the android developer lab session :)
Mar 03 13:23:40 <DocScrutinizer> marketing announcement was poorly prepared first and foremost
Mar 03 13:24:03 <th0br0> :P zaheerm
Mar 03 13:24:06 <slaine> Given the disappearance of lots of the moblin git projects, I'm assuming we'll get something shortly.
Mar 03 13:24:34 <zaheerm> th0br0, it still compares very badly to my n900...
Mar 03 13:24:49 <th0br0> no doubt. well, it's got no keyboard ...
Mar 03 13:24:52 <th0br0> but the cpu is pretty nice
Mar 03 13:25:23 <slaine> I found it snappy to use but didn't much like the software
Mar 03 13:25:27 <th0br0> but then again, it's got no separate dsp i guess.
Mar 03 13:25:43 <th0br0> android is nice but too ... proprietary imho
Mar 03 13:25:48 <tybollt> DocScrutinizer: This is not the first time a company (or many) massively underestimate the power of the nerds.
Mar 03 13:26:32 <zaheerm> yes the onscreen keyboard is crap
Mar 03 13:26:48 <zaheerm> the apps on market aren't all that...
Mar 03 13:27:01 <zaheerm> and im integration on n900 is so much better
Mar 03 13:27:38 <zaheerm> and surprisingly i don't seem to get notified for my new gmail emaisl on my nexus one, once the display is off...that seems like a really bad bug
Mar 03 13:29:13 <th0br0> ^^
Mar 03 13:29:53 <th0br0> well, if google were actually working *with* the community (e.g. maemo / meego) and not separately, then android would be ahuge success community-wise
Mar 03 13:30:02 <zaheerm> also..openvpn needs you to root the android
Mar 03 13:30:25 <zaheerm> the multimedia is shit because they chose some proprietary media framework opencore which was inside packetvideo and opened it
Mar 03 13:30:34 <zaheerm> so absolutely no community dev there
Mar 03 13:31:38 <th0br0> yeah
Mar 03 14:00:09 <brukutu> where can i download meego?
Mar 03 14:00:34 <slaine> brukutu: see the topic, read the faq
Mar 03 14:00:45 <brukutu> was abt too
Mar 03 14:01:09 <brukutu> slaine, what is the best remix / moblin you think to run with ati gfx card?
Mar 03 14:02:46 <slaine> brukutu: I couldn't really say to be honest
Mar 03 14:02:58 <slaine> I've only ever used the Moblin distro on a Dell Mini 9
Mar 03 14:03:12 <slaine> I played with the Fedora spin a while back, but didn't use it in earnest
Mar 03 14:03:23 <slaine> I've heard lots of good things about the OpenSuse moblin release
Mar 03 14:03:32 <brukutu> slaine, you seem clued up with moblin...i install moblin on fedora...but i cant make a gtalk account...option not there...can do myspace flikker and so on....how do i get gtalk and facebook to show up?
Mar 03 14:03:35 <slaine> I've heard mixed reviews of the Ubuntu Moblin remix
Mar 03 14:04:23 <slaine> as mentioned on the moblin channel by ebassi, moblin proper doesn't support facebook. The OpenSuse release does though
Mar 03 14:04:28 <slaine> I'd suggest trying it out
Mar 03 14:05:01 <brukutu> thanks slaine
Mar 03 14:05:03 <slaine> They've patched the packages etc. where as the Fedora spin is a repackage of the moblin release with no patches
Mar 03 14:24:28 <VLJ> hi
Mar 03 14:24:40 <VLJ> repo.moblin.org/moblin/developpement is no more ?
Mar 03 14:30:32 <slaine> VLJ: for now
Mar 03 14:30:43 <slaine> it looks they're getting the new servers setup
Mar 03 14:31:02 <slaine> as there's lots of projects missing from git.moblin.org too
Mar 03 14:31:09 <VLJ> they will be online again before or after meego source code release ?
Mar 03 14:31:16 <VLJ> yeah ive seen this
Mar 03 14:31:37 <slaine> VLJ: as usual, we have no info, only speculation
Mar 03 15:30:28 <firegnu> hi guys, Does meego means moblin is over?
Mar 03 15:31:17 <robsta> firegnu: yes and no
Mar 03 15:31:40 <firegnu> why?
Mar 03 15:31:55 <robsta> it means moblin is bigger under a new name
Mar 03 15:33:30 <firegnu> when does meego release?
Mar 03 15:33:53 <zaheerm> q2/2010 i think...
Mar 03 15:34:52 <firegnu> 2012? lol....
Mar 03 15:35:25 <w00t> soon, I'm fairly sure
Mar 03 15:36:26 <slaine> any of the above
Mar 03 15:36:28 <slaine> :)
Mar 03 15:38:07 <firegnu> cool
Mar 03 15:43:47 <gouverneur> firegnu: in about 2 weeks there might be a first dev be released
Mar 03 15:45:15 <firegnu> ok. i will wait...
Mar 03 15:51:07 <DocScrutinizer> ola w00t
Mar 03 16:04:07 <w00t> DocScrutinizer: o/
Mar 03 16:25:39 <pawbie> I'm confused.  What's the difference between #moblin and #meego ?
Mar 03 16:27:17 <slaine> different people
Mar 03 16:27:24 * slaine shrugs
Mar 03 16:27:43 <w00t> meego is the result of the merge between moblin and maemo, #meego is the IRC channel for that child
Mar 03 16:27:52 <w00t> #moblin is the channel for .moblin
Mar 03 16:28:10 * w00t glares at that errant dot
Mar 03 16:28:31 <pawbie> So if I'm using moblin 2.1 and want to continue using it and try to develop for future versions...  I should be in #meego or #moblin?
Mar 03 16:28:52 <slaine> meego for future versions, i.e. what would have been moblin 2.2
Mar 03 16:29:10 <pawbie> And there's no meego alpha/beta image, just moblin 2.1?
Mar 03 16:29:49 <slaine> correct
Mar 03 16:30:07 <slaine> and maemo5
Mar 03 16:30:40 <pawbie> Ah, thanks.  The moblin documentation mentioned a possible move to dpkg.  Will MeeGo use dpkg or rpm?
Mar 03 16:30:49 <slaine> rpm
Mar 03 16:30:53 <slaine> see the faq
Mar 03 16:31:01 <slaine> http://meego.com/about/faq
Mar 03 16:31:05 <pawbie> Oh.  Duh, right infront of me.
Mar 03 16:31:13 <pawbie> Ya.  I've read it twice and somehow missed that. ;)
Mar 03 16:31:45 <pawbie> I think the Clutter and GTK+ thing was jumping out at me too much.
Mar 03 16:35:30 <pawbie> Thanks a ton for answering those questions.  One last one, if you can answer it - I've used acpi events on my Lenovo T61 with success.  When I add similar event and actions to /etc/acpi on moblin 2.1 and test with 'acpid -l -f', my button event and action work 100%
Mar 03 16:35:45 <pawbie> When I reboot and acpid runs normally, the event doesn't work at all.  Any tips?
Mar 03 16:36:47 <robsta> pawbie: which button?
Mar 03 16:36:59 <robsta> all of them?
Mar 03 16:37:13 <pawbie> Oh.  I'm trying to get the Fn+F7 or the Touchpad button on the asus eee 1005HA to work.
Mar 03 16:38:06 <pawbie> acpi_listen reports the button as hotkey ATKD.  The event is hotkey.*
Mar 03 16:38:25 <pawbie> The action I want is synclient touchpadoff=1
Mar 03 16:38:49 <robsta> i don't know, sorry
Mar 03 16:39:34 <pawbie> Oh.  Thanks, though.  I just find it really weird that it works when launching acpid from a terminal with the debug and log options, but acpid started normally seems to ignore it.
Mar 03 16:43:25 <DocScrutinizer> pawbie: are you sure it's acpid that fails, rather than maybe synclient which might not like the environment of the deamon case?
Mar 03 16:43:47 <pawbie> I was hoping you could tell me. ;)
Mar 03 16:44:30 <pawbie> I assumed it would work - works on my debian machine, but debian != moblin ;)  I tried using suid bit, but it still didn't work.  I've also tried adding "touch /tmp/thescriptran' to the actoin script.  Neither had any effect.
Mar 03 16:44:34 <DocScrutinizer> substitute synclient with a simple command like e.g eject, or suspend, or dunno what
Mar 03 16:45:05 <DocScrutinizer> aaah yeah, touch a good idea
Mar 03 16:45:28 <DocScrutinizer> so if that didn't fire, I guess it's a bug in acpid then
Mar 03 16:46:06 <pawbie> I'm not sure.  I'm definitely no acpid expert - I just wanted to hack together a quick solution to my gorilla paws rubbing against the touchpad when I try to type.....
Mar 03 16:47:21 <DocScrutinizer> eew i know that. alas here synclient ceased to work completely
Mar 03 16:52:54 <DocScrutinizer> my inconvenient solution for now is to disable tap on touchpad, so I use the hw-buttons only
Mar 03 16:54:27 <pawbie> I really miss alt+f2
Mar 03 16:54:46 <tripzero> oh noes... where did it go?
Mar 03 16:54:52 <pawbie> Doesn't work in moblin 2.1 :P
Mar 03 16:55:51 <tripzero> boo :(
Mar 03 17:22:44 <Jaffa> Af'noon all
Mar 03 19:14:14 <megabast> someone could said me why I get "No such signal" with QObject::connect(button, SIGNAL(clicked(int)), this, SLOT(function(int)));
Mar 03 19:14:48 <megabast> we can't overwrite on connect SIGNAL ?
Mar 03 19:16:01 <megabast> private slots:
Mar 03 19:16:02 <megabast> 	void function(int);
Mar 03 19:16:14 <tripzero> megabast, check the signal signature
Mar 03 19:16:44 <tripzero> also, there is #qt for qt specific issues
Mar 03 19:17:09 <megabast> ok
Mar 03 19:19:41 <pawbie> DocScrutinizer: I figured out the acpi touchpad thing.  You were right - the context of synclient wasn't correct.  Both $DISPLAY and $XAUTHORITY had to exist and be accurate for synclient to work when called from acpid.
Mar 03 19:21:26 <thiago_home> megabast: you forgot Q_OBJECT in your class, most likely
Mar 03 19:21:36 <thiago_home> megabast: what exactly did the warning say?
Mar 03 19:22:58 <megabast> thiago I put Q_Object Macro
Mar 03 19:23:15 <megabast> No such signal QPushButton::clicked(int)
Mar 03 19:24:39 <thiago_home> we're helping you in #qt, let's continue there
Mar 03 19:25:43 <megabast> yes ;)
Mar 03 20:18:44 <thiago_home> arjan: ping
Mar 03 20:21:24 * w00t wanders in
Mar 03 20:21:26 <w00t> evening all
Mar 03 20:40:11 <Blice> Any code yet?
Mar 03 20:40:18 <Stskeeps> nop
Mar 03 20:40:19 <Stskeeps> :P
Mar 03 20:40:31 <Blice> lame
Mar 03 20:40:36 <arachnist> Blice: #include <stdio.h>
Mar 03 20:41:09 <Blice> arachnist: nice distro, bro
Mar 03 20:49:59 <thiago_home> there's Qt though
Mar 03 20:50:18 <thiago_home> and the middleware that is common between Maemo and Moblin anyway
Mar 03 20:51:47 <Stskeeps> evening DawnFoster :)
Mar 03 20:54:11 <DawnFoster> hi stskeeps
Mar 03 20:54:56 <Stskeeps> how's your first week on MeeGo coming along?
Mar 03 20:58:52 <RST38h> Moo, meegopeoples
Mar 03 20:59:43 <GeneralAntilles>  Surely you means MeeGos? :P
Mar 03 20:59:58 <wazd> RST38h: moo
Mar 03 20:59:59 <RST38h> Mi-Gos, yes
Mar 03 21:00:23 <RST38h> wazd: http://www.encspb.ru/image.php?file=big%2f2803986828.jpg
Mar 03 21:00:46 <wazd> RST38h: :)
Mar 03 21:02:42 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: mostly spending time getting set up at intel :) Hoping to actually get started on more real work soon.
Mar 03 21:03:26 <RST38h> DawnFoster: which campus?
Mar 03 21:04:18 * w00t waves at DawnFoster
Mar 03 21:04:29 <DawnFoster> RST38h: I'm in Jones Farm in Hillsboro, OR
Mar 03 21:04:36 <DawnFoster> hi w00t
Mar 03 21:04:40 <RST38h> DawnFoster: Ah, the mother ship
Mar 03 21:04:45 <w00t> nice to see you around :)
Mar 03 21:05:29 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: think we all are, this set up process of the project with all the silence is a bit awkward :)
Mar 03 21:05:49 <DawnFoster> RST38h: JF is critical mass for the open source work at intel.
Mar 03 21:06:00 <RST38h> wazd: "...anyone who ever watched anime knows what happens next..."
Mar 03 21:06:19 <Jaffa> Ev'ning all.
Mar 03 21:06:31 <wazd> Jaffa: heya
Mar 03 21:06:44 <wazd> RST38h: well, let's not share it here :D
Mar 03 21:07:04 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: I'm hoping to help with some of the communication. People are so busy trying to get things pulled together, but haven't really had time to talk about it.
Mar 03 21:07:19 * RST38h goes to US tomorrow, whoever wants to connect let me know
Mar 03 21:07:40 <wazd> RST38h: any sign of life activity from Roman btw? :(
Mar 03 21:07:46 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: yeah, - this project will be an interesting challenge for sure :)
Mar 03 21:07:58 <Jaffa> DawnFoster: It's important that people doing that work realis that it taking an extra week but having been open/communicating about it would probably be better than meeting a deadline which had never been communicated externally anyway.
Mar 03 21:09:12 <RST38h> wazd: he is lively enough as far as I can tell
Mar 03 21:09:38 <wazd> RST38h: ah, ok
Mar 03 21:10:03 <GeneralAntilles> Jaffa, +1
Mar 03 21:10:07 <RST38h> wazd: not instantly responsive but ok
Mar 03 21:10:23 <GeneralAntilles> Lot of people trying to operate in a vacuum out here, and I expect we're bleeding away enthusiasm in the mean time.
Mar 03 21:11:26 <DawnFoster> GeneralAntilles: I agree that we don't want to lose the momentum.
Mar 03 21:12:54 * Jaffa knows of several big, long-time Maemo supporters who were initially enthusiastic about being involved in building another community from the ground-up, just like the 770 days; but with open development processes around the product, as well as the community. But there's lots of external effort trying to be recognised and comparatively lots of silence from anyone officially involved in the project.
Mar 03 21:13:35 <RST38h> Getting overly enthusiastic leads to burnout
Mar 03 21:13:50 <DawnFoster> Jaffa: I'll see if I can kickstart some additional communication
Mar 03 21:14:23 <RST38h> The next complaint is gonna be "Nokia and Intel do not listen to community" BTW, it always goes like this
Mar 03 21:15:15 <thiago_home> listening != accepting everything that was said
Mar 03 21:15:22 <thiago_home> though I'm sure you know
Mar 03 21:15:33 <GeneralAntilles> thiago_home, no, really? :)
Mar 03 21:15:35 <RST38h> thiago: but there is a lot of people who do not understand this
Mar 03 21:15:50 <thiago_home> yes
Mar 03 21:15:57 <thiago_home> but I'm sure you guys here, right now, do
Mar 03 21:16:38 <RST38h> + Nokia often cultivates this feeling by not doing the obvious things, driving users mad (literally)
Mar 03 21:16:53 <RST38h> Would be interesting to see if Intel does the same =)
Mar 03 21:17:17 * thiago_home is hoping that Intel will teach Nokia to be an even better Open Source citizen
Mar 03 21:17:23 <thiago_home> and this includes us at Qt too
Mar 03 21:17:31 <RST38h> umgh...eek
Mar 03 21:17:53 <RST38h> but yes, lots of possibilities for things to go in either direction
Mar 03 21:18:08 <wazd> RST38h: well, if you'll manage to meet him in US - say hai from me :)
Mar 03 21:18:33 <pawbie> Do any of you guys follow the recent Android woes?
Mar 03 21:18:44 <RST38h> wazd: I will discuss whatever matters are pending and probably just bring the money with me
Mar 03 21:19:06 <wazd> RST38h: oh, please don't
Mar 03 21:19:16 <wazd> RST38h: I don't need them anymore
Mar 03 21:19:23 <RST38h> pawbie: What? Has it finally reached the point of unmanagibility?
Mar 03 21:19:36 <wazd> pawbie: Jobsie rage you mean?
Mar 03 21:20:29 <pawbie> Just the recent semi-backlash from developers about the magnitude of available platforms, the silly battles and finger pointing at Google for not making their apps open, etc.
Mar 03 21:20:44 <pawbie> Cyanogen vs Google, etc.
Mar 03 21:20:58 <RST38h> ah
Mar 03 21:21:04 <pawbie> Not that any of this applies immediately, but I think it might help to retrospect some of it for MeeGo.
Mar 03 21:21:14 <RST38h> So, everyone is ok with their native code loophole as it is?
Mar 03 21:22:49 <pawbie> I'm not sure what you mean?
Mar 03 21:23:01 <RST38h> pawbie: Android is a sandboxed solution
Mar 03 21:23:09 <pawbie> Right.  Through Dalvik.
Mar 03 21:23:14 <RST38h> pawbie: can't do much outside of the sandbox
Mar 03 21:23:29 <RST38h> pawbie: MeeGo is a proper platform that runs native apps
Mar 03 21:23:34 <pawbie> You can with the NDK.  But you lose any sanity in portability.
Mar 03 21:23:47 <RST38h> pawbie: I am sure I do not ;)
Mar 03 21:24:09 <pawbie> If you're developing under Androids NDK in native C, you do ;)
Mar 03 21:24:47 <RST38h> pawbie: Unlike Dalviked Java, native C is pretty portable
Mar 03 21:24:57 <RST38h> you can run it pretty much everywhere
Mar 03 21:25:06 <pawbie> Ya.  What about your commercial developers, if there is an interest?
Mar 03 21:25:30 <pawbie> Is it going to be up to them to port their projects to every imaginable platform MeeGo will service?
Mar 03 21:25:33 <RST38h> Dunno, I doubt commercial developers care that much what language it is
Mar 03 21:25:53 <RST38h> pawbie: What is the problem with recompiling stuff for 2-3 platforms?
Mar 03 21:25:54 <thiago_home> pawbie: does the NDK give access to the framebuffer already?
Mar 03 21:26:17 <pawbie> thiago_home: As far as I can tell, if you can do it with the kernel and a handful of libraries, you can do it with the NDK.
Mar 03 21:26:31 <thiago_home> pawbie: I mean: is there public, maintained, documented API for it?
Mar 03 21:26:38 <thiago_home> of course you can use hacks
Mar 03 21:26:52 <pawbie> RST38h: Pause for a second.  I'm not here to debate Managed Code vs The Joys of Linux.  I just wanted to bring up some of the panic in the Android community.
Mar 03 21:27:35 <pawbie> thiago_home: There is some documentation..  I'm not going to say it's good, but it's enough to get a project ported if you're determined.
Mar 03 21:28:21 <pawbie> Anyway, so the whole reason I brought up Android was to retrospect two of the concerns that seemed to apply to the conversation you guys were having: Developers, enthusiasm, public opinion.
Mar 03 21:28:26 <thiago_home> the reason I'm asking is quite simple: unless they give native (C or other language that doesn't require Dalvik) API for the common functionality, the NDK is not useful for app development
Mar 03 21:28:28 <RST38h> pawbie: Well, they had to make all the same mistakes everyone had done before them ;)
Mar 03 21:28:47 <thiago_home> whereas, on the other side, MeeGo wants to do everything in native
Mar 03 21:29:02 <pawbie> thiago_home: At this point, with the multitude of Android devices and no clear way to manage platforms, the NDK is useless. :(
Mar 03 21:29:08 <RST38h> thiago: which, given limted resources, is pretty logical
Mar 03 21:29:30 <thiago_home> RST38h: it's also differentiation
Mar 03 21:29:32 <RST38h> pawbie: ah come one, most of these devices are arm
Mar 03 21:29:45 <RST38h> thiago: you can differentiate in java as well
Mar 03 21:29:48 <thiago_home> RST38h: want raw, native speed? Choose MeeGo.
Mar 03 21:29:59 <thiago_home> native Java apps?
Mar 03 21:30:05 <RST38h> thiago: In most cases you do not want raw speed
Mar 03 21:30:25 <thiago_home> true
Mar 03 21:30:32 <pawbie> RST38h: They are - but what about the rest of the hardware?  Simple example - some devices feature trackballs, some feature D-pad buttons.  Imagine the hair pulling initial developers encountered when the d-pads became more popular...
Mar 03 21:30:33 <thiago_home> but it happens often enough that there's a business case for it
Mar 03 21:30:35 <RST38h> thiago: the problem, of course, that those few cases where you want raw speed become bottlenecks for vm solutions
Mar 03 21:31:03 <thiago_home> pawbie: technically, it's the same problem that Symbian had
Mar 03 21:31:08 <RST38h> pawbie: Sorry man, Symbian solved this. Natively. Years ago.
Mar 03 21:31:15 <pawbie> And technically, Android's Java isn't native and isn't even performance enhanced by the chipset.  Dalvik is it's own beast, for all intents and purposes. :(
Mar 03 21:31:22 <thiago_home> pawbie: only Symbian wasn't open and made it all worse by not even trying to keep everything compatible
Mar 03 21:31:44 <RST38h> pawbie: Just because your devices have slightly different controls, you do not need vm
Mar 03 21:31:51 <thiago_home> RST38h: Symbian didn't fully solve it. You still have one SDK per platform and variant.
Mar 03 21:31:59 <RST38h> thiago: True
Mar 03 21:32:18 <RST38h> thiago: I.e. it hit that "fragmentaton" thing years before Android :)
Mar 03 21:32:20 <thiago_home> Symbian is only getting one unified API now, with Qt.
Mar 03 21:32:27 <thiago_home> yeah
Mar 03 21:32:40 <pawbie> RST38h: Perfect example of fragmentation.
Mar 03 21:32:45 <RST38h> thiago: Oh, don't you hope that Qt will make any difference
Mar 03 21:33:14 <RST38h> thiago; Symbian is way more than UI. But finally replacing Eikon, Avkon, Uikon, and all the other stupid -kons with a decent API is nice
Mar 03 21:35:04 <thiago_home> anyway, MeeGo will have an even wider device diversity
Mar 03 21:35:16 <thiago_home> both Symbian and Android are (currently) sticking to mobile phones
Mar 03 21:35:29 <pawbie> Not entirely.
Mar 03 21:35:31 <thiago_home> MeeGo is born with more than that
Mar 03 21:35:36 <RST38h> I just hope you are designing UI with respect to screen scalability...
Mar 03 21:35:40 <pawbie> There's a company using Android for the OS on VOIP desktop phones.
Mar 03 21:35:55 <pawbie> Another company using Android as a console video gaming platform...
Mar 03 21:36:06 <thiago_home> released devices? how big a volume?
Mar 03 21:36:35 <pawbie> Not that substantial - but it could definitely be a viable thing some day.
Mar 03 21:36:39 <thiago_home> and Google has said they only will care about the mobile phone version.
Mar 03 21:36:50 <thiago_home> and, yes, it could, but we want MeeGo to take over that market
Mar 03 21:36:53 <pawbie> Well, Android isn't Google.
Mar 03 21:37:04 <thiago_home> it isn't, but it's very much associated with it
Mar 03 21:37:18 <thiago_home> and tightly controlled too
Mar 03 21:38:06 <pawbie> Anyway...  Huge fan of Moblin.  I can't wait to see MeeGo.
Mar 03 21:38:38 <pawbie> I just wanted to bring up the Android nonsensery to see if it could improve MeeGo.
Mar 03 23:20:50 <thiago_home> interesting, 12 Trolls :-)
Mar 03 23:25:58 <red> :D
Mar 03 23:26:35 <GeneralAntilles> thiago_home, I think we've got more than that. *eg*
Mar 03 23:26:42 <GeneralAntilles> Oh, right, Trolls with a capital T.
Mar 03 23:29:55 <thiago_home> yes, those :-)
Mar 03 23:30:26 <thiago_home> hiccup in the office
Mar 03 23:30:31 <thiago_home> #qt-labs got flooded...
Mar 03 23:31:36 <ljp> we had some power outtage due to needing more power for some new machines
Mar 03 23:31:51 <thiago_home> ljp: in Oslo
Mar 03 23:32:14 <thiago_home> 62.70.27.* is the Oslo office network
Mar 03 23:37:16 <ljp> ahh ok
Mar 03 23:38:39 <thiago_home> though the "we need to install more power lines, please stay at home" email was interesting
Mar 03 23:39:41 <ljp> ya, those racks taking up the hallways are of much better use in the server room
Mar 04 01:55:21 <bzhb> There is a page on the wiki (http://wiki.meego.com/Forum_/_Talk) saying that the MeeGo forum will be powered VBulletin that is a proprietary forum software. I guess 250$ is really cheap compared to all the money spend on MeeGo by Nokia and Intel, but it is a bit paradoxical to power a free software community with a proprietary software... are the open source alternatives like phpBB not good enough ?
Mar 04 01:55:49 <GeneralAntilles> bzhb, because we have an existing install of vBulletin on talk.maemo.org that's served us well since 2005.
Mar 04 01:55:58 <GeneralAntilles> It has the features we need and we have people who know how to work it.
Mar 04 02:06:26 <daumas> People use the same excuse to run Windows.
Mar 04 02:07:12 <bzhb> I guess it is a pragmatic decision. Still It doesn't feel completely right to me...
Mar 04 02:07:20 <GeneralAntilles> daumas, yeah, massive eyeroll on that one.
Mar 04 02:08:18 <GeneralAntilles> bzhb, the time and money cost of an open source solution would be significantly higher to get all the features we currently have in vBulletin
Mar 04 02:08:44 <GeneralAntilles> bzhb, personally, the forum software doesn't seem like an important enough issue to make a free software battlegrounds of.
Mar 04 02:08:59 <GeneralAntilles> If you want to focus on something, focus on platform stuff.
Mar 04 02:10:09 <daumas> ...or work towards providing needed functionality in alternatives and present it as a replacement. Is there a need to drown out his spirit?
Mar 04 02:11:34 <GeneralAntilles> Hardline open-sourcism rarely gets you anywhere productive.
Mar 04 02:14:09 <daumas> I could care less what software is used. Web-based forums leave a bad taste in my mouth and I rarely use them. I just didn't see a need to squash any effort to provide a working alternative. Elitist attitudes rarely get you anywhere productive either. (I use tons of proprietary software with Linux btw, not that you should know or I shouldn't even have to explain)
Mar 04 02:14:44 <GeneralAntilles> daumas, I don't see any efforts here to provide an alternative.
Mar 04 02:14:57 <GeneralAntilles> daumas, I see a question about why a particularly decision was made
Mar 04 02:15:01 <GeneralAntilles> Which I sought to answer
Mar 04 02:16:55 <bzhb> ok if there is a real technical gap between vBulletin and OSS alternatives, I'm okay with it. But a forum is something that will probably stay for a long time. So there is a short term avantage to use vBulletin. But is it the same in the long term ?
Mar 04 02:18:11 <GeneralAntilles> bzhb, if somebody wants to invest the time into bringing an open source alternative up to speed, then they're more than welcome to.
Mar 04 02:24:06 <itdocks> vbulletin is the best unfortunately
Mar 04 02:24:24 <itdocks> relatively cheap as well
Mar 04 02:26:09 <itdocks> cost is less than a couple hours of developer time heh
Mar 04 02:33:48 * itdocks yawns
Mar 04 02:35:53 <bzhb> How flexible is vBulletin license ? For example if at some point we want a feature in MeeGo forum that is not present is vBulletin, is it possible to modify the code of vBulletin to implement the feature ?
Mar 04 02:36:04 <itdocks> yes
Mar 04 02:36:21 <bzhb> ok
Mar 04 02:36:27 <bzhb> nice
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