**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 04 02:59:58 2010 Mar 04 03:54:57 daumas: fine to focus on the backend websites too, I think. I agree. The infrastructure should be using free software as well. Mar 04 03:55:45 * DocScrutinizer vomits all over forums in general Mar 04 03:55:51 there are lots of free software bulletin boards available. Innumerable, i imagine. Every CMS probably has their own, plus others (e.g. phpBB comes to mind). Mar 04 03:56:32 ya, forums are barf for sure. The larger point is that the infrastructure backend should all be free software as well. There's plenty to chose from, so there's not even a need to tap nonfree stuff. Mar 04 03:59:40 jebba, at what cost, though? Mar 04 03:59:55 There are reasons we picked vBulletin, you know. :) Mar 04 04:00:12 We're all pro free-software, but it doesn't make it the best choice simply because it's free software. Mar 04 04:00:20 Like I said, hardline rarely gets you anywhere productive. Mar 04 04:00:35 GeneralAntilles: what, you don't want to run LinuxLibre? Mar 04 04:00:40 * microlith chuckles Mar 04 04:03:57 I still had to find a sensible way to cope with forums like tmo. I frequently end up with 168 open browser tabs, and starting polling all over from start when I reached end. Inane concept, totally nuts Mar 04 04:09:44 at OM we clearly decided we don't want any forum as it's impossible to get any other work done if you really want to follow what's going on. For those html junkies we got nabble eventually, for them to have a forum alike view on the mailing lists. (even that made me vomit each time some some luser posted a mail via nabble) Mar 04 04:10:24 hey DocScrutinizer Mar 04 04:10:43 hi rwhitby :-D Mar 04 04:10:59 any of the part left over yet? :-) Mar 04 04:11:11 DocScrutinizer: all used up on .au devices Mar 04 04:11:22 good Mar 04 04:12:40 so I assume .au is mostly buzzfree now :-P Mar 04 04:13:51 DocScrutinizer: dunno, I have three Palm Pre's on my desk, and all GTA0X are in the drawer. Mar 04 04:14:06 * rwhitby runs webos-internals.org now Mar 04 04:14:06 same here XP Mar 04 04:14:20 for the drawer part Mar 04 04:15:11 well, I'm bitching at nokia channels now :-D Mar 04 04:15:33 and love my N900 Mar 04 04:16:59 (which btw could use a buzzfix for speakerphone inbound audio as well) Mar 04 04:24:50 DocScrutinizer, there's that thingy on tmo that makes the first few lines of posts scroll by in realtime as they're posted. It convinced me it's impossible to keep up with it Mar 04 04:25:26 exactly Mar 04 04:25:26 ShadowJK, it's better if you just focus on a few forums. Mar 04 04:26:21 I just follow a few threads, if they happen to be on the front page after I click "new" :P Mar 04 04:26:57 even that's highly adictive in a malice way Mar 04 04:27:11 Anyway, you're free to ignore the forums if they don't interest you. Mar 04 04:27:24 mwkn seeks to notify people of important threads. Mar 04 04:27:50 and totally keeps you from any productive work in the end, while being totally useless in itself Mar 04 04:27:57 Meh Mar 04 04:28:00 lol Mar 04 04:28:09 Any medium full of unproductive people tends to be unproductive. Mar 04 04:28:18 Most of the major Maemo community people came from itT. Mar 04 04:28:20 ack Mar 04 04:28:31 So as biased as you want to be about it, it's still been a net positive for the community. Mar 04 04:30:21 I'd just love to see the really productive threads to get a wikipage (like e.g. for projects etc: "where's the man page?" "see tmo thread foobar") in paralled at least Mar 04 04:31:36 at one point there used to be a practice of copy pasting sensible threads to wiki.. Mar 04 04:32:00 key mapping: see tmo. partitioning: see tmo. multiboot: see tmo. But WHERE? Mar 04 04:32:25 * ShadowJK vaguely recalls 3 different partitioning-whine threads in the last 3 days Mar 04 04:33:02 yeah! and the few useful posts tend to get lost in there Mar 04 04:33:24 but for partitioning I think I'd look at jebba's userpage on the wiki ;p Mar 04 04:35:38 * daumas hopes the MeeGo wiki won't be all on one wiki page like Maemo's Mar 04 04:35:59 Er? Mar 04 04:36:11 *cough* http://wiki.maemo.org/User:Jebba Mar 04 04:36:25 speaking of partitioning... i still hadn't repartitioned my N900 Mar 04 04:36:36 daumas, um? Mar 04 04:36:42 I never "repartitioned" N8x0 either.. Mar 04 04:36:48 daumas, you're complaining about the whole of the maemo.org wiki because of one user's page? :) Mar 04 04:36:54 and i have it for like... ever since it was available here in poland Mar 04 04:37:13 (2 or 3 days after worldwide release) Mar 04 04:37:17 GeneralAntilles: no, let me try to rephrase that. Mar 04 04:38:16 * daumas hopes that all the sensible information about MeeGo lands on the appropriate wiki pages the information is about instead of being collected all on one user's page. Mar 04 04:39:58 daumas: that's up to the ones who create the content Mar 04 04:40:50 daumas, yeah, there's plenty of information that's not on jebba's page. Mar 04 04:41:01 Complain to jebba if you want him to put his stuff on the general wiki. Mar 04 04:41:16 nevertheless Mar 04 04:41:18 I have. He continues to do it. Mar 04 04:41:21 ~hail jebba Mar 04 04:41:22 * infobot bows down to jebba and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Mar 04 04:43:21 daumas: it's a wiki! You're free to pick up on jebba's loose ends, and sort it to the appropriate places (as long as you don't copy to shamelessly without mentioning the copy source) Mar 04 04:44:19 * daumas wonders why everyone is so grumpy tonight. Mar 04 04:44:37 me? not really :-) Mar 04 04:48:27 and I seem to remember a few efforts to unify info in one place, where jebba was active participant Mar 04 04:52:11 as i put at the top of the main wiki page: "Feel free to take any of these pages and copy them over to the main wiki namespace (here or in any other wiki, for that matter)." Mar 04 04:53:37 Phone_Control was at least one example of what DocScrutinizer mentioned above, fwiw. Mar 04 04:59:58 (ah, and re: mentioning source, there's no need) Mar 04 05:03:21 moin jebba Mar 04 05:05:01 jebba: got mdbus2? Mar 04 06:19:57 morning Mar 04 07:17:09 Hi Mar 04 07:18:31 i need some info Mar 04 07:18:41 I tried to create login at meego site Mar 04 07:18:58 i filled all the fields correctly Mar 04 07:19:18 I got reply that password details will be sent to me by email Mar 04 07:19:35 but I still didn't get any mail Mar 04 07:20:02 isn't there some reactivation email resend or something? Mar 04 07:21:13 ya i tried the forgot password option to get the password details again but it not worked Mar 04 07:22:05 got greylisting or checked your spam folder? Mar 04 07:22:30 I checked spam and inbox both Mar 04 07:22:53 I am getting the community mails but didn't get that password mail Mar 04 07:29:03 chetan_: what is your userid? Mar 04 07:29:48 chetanknanda Mar 04 07:30:40 chetan_: you seem to have an active profile fully created: http://meego.com/users/chetanknanda Mar 04 07:30:53 chetan_: try simply to log in? Mar 04 07:31:16 but I dont have password Mar 04 07:31:30 ask it to resend the password? Mar 04 07:31:45 I am checking continuously my mail since from yestereday Mar 04 07:32:04 I used the forgot password option twice to get the password Mar 04 07:32:38 but no benfit Mar 04 07:33:24 but no benifit Mar 04 07:33:26 chetan_: I would talk privately to you if I would know how to open a private chat in webchat... Mar 04 07:33:35 sure Mar 04 07:34:00 chetan_: are you using a normal IRC client or can you open a private chat with me? Mar 04 07:34:24 qgil: /query nickname might do the trick Mar 04 07:34:25 ps: I have admin rights to the site and I want to check your email address there is correct Mar 04 07:34:41 qgil : i opened a private chat Mar 04 07:34:42 that worked :) Mar 04 07:39:53 lo yerga Mar 04 07:44:43 morning Stskeeps Mar 04 08:09:05 reading the first reactions at talk.maemo.org after the MeeGo related announcements of Orange and the N900... Mar 04 08:09:22 ... I'm starting to think that some people really don't want to see (leave alone enjoy) good news Mar 04 08:10:31 this is basically a scope while I send an email to meego-dev: http://lists.meego.com/listinfo/meego-sdk Mar 04 08:10:40 a scoop, I mean Mar 04 08:10:40 i think it's difficult when not understanding orange that much - here they are stigmatised(?) because of being a company that sends out advertisement SMS at random hours to pay-on-the-go users :P Mar 04 08:11:01 and probably MeeGo will enable that as well but...... Mar 04 08:11:22 reminds me some of my friends complaining about everybody buying Ikea furniture and then visiting theirm homes and..... Mar 04 08:12:45 what do you think about FSO middleware in meego? Mar 04 08:13:18 fso? Mar 04 08:13:24 ah Mar 04 08:13:31 I mean, mce e.g. won't make it from maemo to meego, no? Mar 04 08:13:37 I guess it's about components, I don't have any opinion myself Mar 04 08:13:49 DocScrutinizer: no idea, really Mar 04 08:13:59 qgil: freesmartphone.org Mar 04 08:14:21 yeah, took me a while because the first thing that came to mind was freedesktop.org :) Mar 04 08:14:36 near hit Mar 04 08:15:04 DocScrutinizer: if base system has to be open source, i doubt mce will make it, and i really hope MeeGo will be more generic, which mce is good at Mar 04 08:15:11 er, Mar 04 08:15:12 not good at Mar 04 08:15:23 :-) Mar 04 08:16:00 fwiw Nokia is offering some components to be opened if that helps aquipping MeeGo witht he best available Mar 04 08:16:03 so who's the board to decide upon such architectural details? Mar 04 08:16:22 again this is case by case and the guys in the know are the architects of the respective areas discussing right now Mar 04 08:16:31 so no idea about mce specifically Mar 04 08:17:01 DocScrutinizer: before a first architecture is published it's basically up to Intel and Nokia architects discussing now Mar 04 08:17:12 like some developers ina bar before presenting their plan to the public Mar 04 08:17:29 or Mark Shuttleworth getting the basics right before proposing Ubuntu to the world Mar 04 08:17:58 after that there will be a public process to propose architecture changes, like in any project at this level Mar 04 08:18:26 qgil: that's where this went fundamentally wrong. Mar 04 08:18:46 tybollt: I see your point but I actually disagree Mar 04 08:18:47 qgil: doesn't sound exactly right Mar 04 08:19:04 DocScrutinizer++ Mar 04 08:19:11 I was never asked about certain things before major oss projects started Mar 04 08:19:29 you don't like something, you can propose changes, fork, leave... Mar 04 08:19:38 but I think it's good to have a clear initial proposal Mar 04 08:19:43 nononononononoooooo Mar 04 08:19:44 thanks for the offer to leave Mar 04 08:19:47 tybollt: why? foss is about meritocracy, not democracy, earn yourself a name and you'll have influence Mar 04 08:19:53 better than a playground for everything "hey, let's discuss!" Mar 04 08:20:07 robsta: agreed on meritocracy Mar 04 08:20:13 we have also seen well intentioned projects starting at that level that never went beyond a 0.1 Mar 04 08:20:17 if they ever reached that level Mar 04 08:20:31 qgil: Nokia and Intel should've had something TO OFFER when going public w/ meego, that is my entire point. Mar 04 08:20:40 As it stands they went public w/ nothing. Mar 04 08:20:51 tybollt: I have explained this several times and erhaps I need to make it visible somewhere: Mar 04 08:21:09 putting all the technical pìeces in place would have implied involving a lot more people for a much longer period Mar 04 08:21:18 this would have resulted in a leak or an unofficial launch Mar 04 08:21:27 and we would have been in the very same situation Mar 04 08:21:32 the current approach is honest: Mar 04 08:21:50 Nokia, Intel an the Linux Foundation have a greed in a basic plan Mar 04 08:21:55 no Mar 04 08:22:03 the current situation is ... F U D :-) Mar 04 08:22:03 technical details and a first unstable release being worjed out now Mar 04 08:22:11 hey guys Mar 04 08:22:20 morning Pandora, danielwilms Mar 04 08:22:54 tybollt: if the current situation bothers you then just put this in a side and wait for a first release Mar 04 08:23:04 a quick question. when do we expect a stable release of the meego OS for flashing on my n900. Mar 04 08:23:07 Stskeeps morning! Mar 04 08:23:13 Hope to get first release soon Mar 04 08:23:20 or hacking to be able to be flashed Mar 04 08:23:28 it's plain nonsense to assume a needed architectural change could be done by a few dudes in a bar as a *draft*, and later on easily reverted for something obviously better on the fly Mar 04 08:23:57 Pandora: topic blog url might help Mar 04 08:24:04 If package system for meego will be RPM then what will be the impact on N900 Mar 04 08:24:05 and those dudes by no means are earning this position by any merits Mar 04 08:24:26 chetan_: .. none? it's code like anything else? Mar 04 08:24:59 deb files whille have to be ported Mar 04 08:25:04 I fully agree that's not a process for everybody and his dog to take part in the endless debate Mar 04 08:25:05 chetan_: it means there will almost certainly be a flash needed at some point... Mar 04 08:25:05 @stskeeps: I didn't get you Mar 04 08:25:22 since apt-get upgrade-rpm won't work Mar 04 08:25:29 a piece of information I have been trying to dig (but haven't got enough time / luck) is Mar 04 08:25:33 but other than that... nothing special Mar 04 08:25:38 but as well that's not a process which should be done by a few in a hermetic room Mar 04 08:25:58 How long did it take between the Ubuntu project became public knowledge and they got a first release Mar 04 08:26:09 DocScrutinizer: how much influence do you think a regular intel or nokia engineer has at this point? Mar 04 08:26:17 and what was the initial statement of the Ubuntu project, meaning how many decisions were already made Mar 04 08:26:17 DocScrutinizer: Hey... I've got an idea - lets announce a new project called Unified Linux and launch it... Mar 04 08:26:25 just you and me Mar 04 08:26:39 then we can discuss the architecture on irc Mar 04 08:26:55 lol Mar 04 08:26:56 and we'll have it done by friday with all those people helping!!! Mar 04 08:27:13 DocScrutinizer: i mean on the big picture Mar 04 08:27:16 we can slashdot it and everything Mar 04 08:27:30 :D Mar 04 08:27:52 DocScrutinizer: or should we get things a bit better defined first? Mar 04 08:27:59 do we even want to do this together? Mar 04 08:28:14 should we chat about the outline before we even commit to each other? Mar 04 08:28:20 how much outline? Mar 04 08:29:06 DocScrutinizer: forgive the english humour.... but does ^^^ make sense? Mar 04 08:29:35 it makes more sense if i read it with your voice Mar 04 08:29:35 :P Mar 04 08:30:25 hmm, somehow the meego mailin list stuff seems to think my request for a subscription came from 127.0.0.1 :) Mar 04 08:31:15 Ah, Unified Linux, can I you? Mar 04 08:31:29 well, found the closest thing: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2004-September/000000.html Mar 04 08:31:31 "And what if I assign a hundred programmers to it?" The master programmer shrugged. "Then the design will never be completed," he said. :) Mar 04 08:31:44 http://www.canonical.org/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html#book3 Mar 04 08:31:51 look all the things that were decided at that point before prior open discussion Mar 04 08:32:01 and look how much has evolved that project since then Mar 04 08:32:17 you don't like a GNOME desktop and you prefer KDE? Push kubuntu Mar 04 08:32:24 no Plone but Drupel? Push it Mar 04 08:32:25 etc Mar 04 08:32:59 lbt: I won't comment on that, not because I couldn't say anything, but simply because it's much too scattered to pick a single statement (which statement?) to answer on that Mar 04 08:33:06 that was for a project lead by one person, and most people was fine Mar 04 08:33:11 in our case Mar 04 08:33:23 agreeing among Intel and Nokia engineers is not simple at all! Mar 04 08:33:46 most of the reasonable and well informed complaints most developers will have are being raised in those discussion Mar 04 08:33:57 deb/rpm, qt/gtk etc Mar 04 08:34:51 so DocScrutinizer tybollt etc, what is your specific area of expertise and concern? Mar 04 08:34:57 qgil: what's the advantage of not letting us follow the discussion? Mar 04 08:35:14 jebba: all the extra time and energy that it takes? Mar 04 08:36:16 jebba: and if at the end the Intel and the Nokia guys that will be sitting on the maintainership of the topic discussed right after the agreement don't agree... Mar 04 08:36:36 so let the Nokia/Intel initial maintainers get to agree on the stuff they will maintain Mar 04 08:36:51 community destruction #4. http://lwn.net/Articles/370157/ Mar 04 08:37:04 and from that point you are encouraged to find weaknesses, propose improvements... and bring the help needed to implement it Mar 04 08:37:13 jebba: it's hard to talk about community destruction even if there's no community as such yet Mar 04 08:37:14 jebba: I know that one very well Mar 04 08:37:18 or any code surrounding it Mar 04 08:37:52 well if there's any area of expertise here that matters, then it's a feeling about how to do a decent architectural design process. This never will pan out properly without a carefully balanced amount of debate with community, and it's a wellknown fact a first decision on basic architectural details is both almost unchangable later on and more often that not suboptimal or even fatal Mar 04 08:38:02 Stskeeps: there's 354 people in this channel. That's community unto itself. Plus the mailing lists, etc. Mar 04 08:38:04 jebba: Nokia and Intel would probably have to structure their discussions quit differently if they want us to listen in. Mar 04 08:38:15 jebba: I won't start mentioning community projects that got plenty of engagement, openness and felixibility and they end up nowhere with everybody burnt out Mar 04 08:38:23 I'd guess most of it are meeings, not paper. Mar 04 08:38:43 at the end of the day, we have to remember that we need to get a product out. Mar 04 08:39:06 But I'd agree it would be better if those decicions where made before the thing was public. Mar 04 08:39:07 which means committed resources Mar 04 08:39:33 DocScrutinizer: for the same reasons you are pointing out it is clear that if you start an open debate about the full architecture of an OS, either you end up with a mess or with a perfect release 10 years after, or something in between Mar 04 08:39:54 i personally don't want MeeGo to end up the Enlightenment of mobile platforms :) Mar 04 08:40:04 AVee: we needed to make it public in order to involve the right people Mar 04 08:40:08 would be nice if we could even see the builder. But again, we're being told to wait and see. Seems like that's been the refrain since i got my n900. "Be patient" is the motto (a side artifact being "do nothing") Mar 04 08:41:09 qgil: That, and for the marketing buzz etc. I can see all that, it's just (in this respect) easier if it's the other way around. Mar 04 08:41:11 qgil: agree on that Mar 04 08:41:28 AVee: define "other way around", please :) Mar 04 08:41:30 jebba: i think it's a transitional thing as well - moblin OBS didn't have public access Mar 04 08:41:38 I never suggested full open debate of everyone and his dog, rememeber? Mar 04 08:41:47 First decisions, then announcements. Mar 04 08:41:54 DocScrutinizer: this is why I'm asking about the specific area that interests you Mar 04 08:42:00 jebba: so they need to change around and allow public access into the OBS, which trust me, is not trivial Mar 04 08:42:13 AVee: in order to make good decisions you need to involve people you can't involve before the announcement Mar 04 08:42:21 but give community a window to watch what's going on, and a letterbox to place suggestions in there Mar 04 08:42:40 In this case, thats probably true Mar 04 08:42:45 isn't basically what is happening right now is the organisational structure being set up in the community? Mar 04 08:42:49 DocScrutinizer: and we would get anyway all the complaints that this is not truly open, etc Mar 04 08:43:21 those discussions happen also over conference calls, visits to Portland/Helsinki... Mar 04 08:43:32 with architects put on new areas etc Mar 04 08:44:26 intel & nokia are treating this like a two way deal. But there is a third partner, the linux foundation, which is basically "the community". But they are being pretty left out of what is going on, it seems. Mar 04 08:44:27 qgil: that's totally inevitable and doesn't matter here. It's not for community's sake, it's for project's sake the few dudes get feedback. It's arrogant notion if they think they don't need that Mar 04 08:44:27 it will be hard to disagree that the people there do not have merit in their area and experience Mar 04 08:45:07 also in these discussions about technology selections it's easy to hit business aspects that you can't really discuss publicly in a comfortable way Mar 04 08:45:33 e.g. how many developers are behind option A and option B, short term plans in products in the pipeline... Mar 04 08:45:50 "very raw baseline to a source and binary repository to build MeeGo trunk on Intel ATOM boards and Nokia N900." Mar 04 08:45:53 interesting Mar 04 08:45:59 n900 support off the bat Mar 04 08:46:02 qgil: I'm well aware of that. I ran another "public R&D" projact recently Mar 04 08:46:12 (need to leave now) afk Mar 04 08:46:46 http://meego.com/community/blogs/valhalla/2010/towards-day-one Mar 04 08:47:27 jebba: saw http://2600hertz.wordpress.com/2010/02/26/meego-destroy-in-6-steps/ ? Mar 04 08:48:39 * DocScrutinizer envisions Aki:"so let's port MCE!" Bill:"nah, let's port moblin foobar manager" Aki:"you got a coin to throw?" Mar 04 08:50:17 Sometimes it will probably be like that, often there are multiple options which are all valid and could all work fine. Mar 04 08:50:27 anyway, aren't we all suffering a bit from tunnel vision? Mar 04 08:50:58 i mean, heck, we're watching a forced move to open processes of a behind-the-walls operation Mar 04 08:51:03 AVee: and quite usually all these options are heritage and nobody looks beyond end of his own nose Mar 04 08:51:07 the first peeks is not going to be pretty Mar 04 08:51:18 DocScrutinizer: So true :) Mar 04 08:51:46 and the transformation of nokia to a hw vendor and contributor to a open platform Mar 04 08:51:55 which means there's less things they can get away with Mar 04 08:56:18 Stskeeps: i just saw it now linked from those comments. Mar 04 08:56:54 jebba: i think step #10 is to use tinfoil-hat-website colours to express your opinions Mar 04 08:56:57 :P Mar 04 08:57:17 lol Mar 04 08:57:22 just read both Mar 04 08:57:53 I'm hopeful for the future, I'm frustrated with the present. I think that sums up most of us Mar 04 08:58:02 the one at 2600hertz is kind of a weird version of this: http://lwn.net/Articles/370157/ Mar 04 08:58:50 This has some good points too: https://www.theopensourceway.org/wiki/Stuff_everyone_knows_and_forgets_anyway https://www.theopensourceway.org/wiki/How_to_tell_if_a_FLOSS_project_is_doomed_to_FAIL Mar 04 09:00:17 :nod: Mar 04 09:00:30 That 2600hertz guy is also an android fanboy judging by his other posts. Like android is so very community driven... Mar 04 09:13:42 lol AVee, that's kinda what I was thinking. Mar 04 09:18:15 Stskeeps: 2600Hz rules :-D Mar 04 09:22:31 I wonder how qgil could have missed what's my particular interest. As if my first question triggering this wasn't specific Mar 04 09:24:18 his point about Nokia losing market share is also wrong Mar 04 09:24:45 say what you want about Symbian (and I have my share of grievances too), it's not something you can simply dismiss Mar 04 09:24:56 DocScrutinizer: what is it? The architectural design? Mar 04 09:25:30 FSO replacing mce/ Mar 04 09:25:46 just a suggestion, and no dude to ask for it Mar 04 09:26:00 moin Mar 04 09:26:36 moinmoin Mar 04 09:26:40 This? http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FSO Mar 04 09:27:07 jebba: yes Mar 04 09:27:12 AIUI it's like "we'll invent something new, if you don't like that, complain or leave" Mar 04 09:27:27 jebba: exactly Mar 04 09:28:04 I believe it should be more clearly stated that MeeGo is actually not open for business / community yet. it's more like that "in Q2 we will present what we have and then you can come join us". Mar 04 09:28:27 exactly Mar 04 09:28:40 and thats feeling really wrong Mar 04 09:28:41 DocScrutinizer: but that's the way open source works, don't like it, fork it Mar 04 09:28:42 Mirv: it sure seems open already. Just no code yet. Mar 04 09:29:07 jebba: that's what I mean. there are channels opening but as a development project it's just a placeholder. Mar 04 09:29:28 and it's ok for me actually, I just think it should be more clearly communicated where we are at the moment and the roadmap Mar 04 09:29:32 end of the month is not far Mar 04 09:30:00 Mirv: but there's no reason to wait for Q2, people are giving input already. Mar 04 09:30:34 jebba: yes to some aspects, but for example like said architecture is between Intel and Nokia for now Mar 04 09:30:53 but it's very good time to think about Moblin + Maemo general community merge and services stuff Mar 04 09:31:10 and that's progressing nicely Mar 04 09:32:11 Mirv: i still dont see why it just has to be between nokia/intel now. If there's some pressing issue (FSO?) to someone, that certainly can be discussed without waiting for nokkiaintel. Mar 04 09:32:38 to take the bull with the horns.. is FSO production quality? Mar 04 09:32:38 :P Mar 04 09:32:53 and start a discussion at meego-dev on those parts Mar 04 09:33:01 the relevant architects might chip in Mar 04 09:33:13 I've merely glanced at it. Would be cool to see if it could workk with ofono. Mar 04 09:35:05 Stskeeps: my voice quality issues in phone calls are related to my mic breaking, not to FSO which works fine for me :) Mar 04 09:35:30 Mirv: that on a freerunner? Mar 04 09:35:45 but I do know some don't like FSO architecture etc.. but it'd be nice to get packaged and ready for the devices that it supports and will support Mar 04 09:35:48 jebba: yes Mar 04 09:36:00 not that I'd easily switch from Debian on my phone anyway Mar 04 09:36:10 robsta: no, that's how fuckin business and arrogant posers exploit FOSS. The real FOSS idea is about NOT forking, but about accepting a benevolent dictator voluntarily based on the assumption this dictator will try to implement a form of win/win democracy whenever possible Mar 04 09:36:59 not at all Mar 04 09:37:36 it's about a project founder/maintainer steering the project Mar 04 09:38:17 it's about people earning a status because of their contributions Mar 04 09:38:40 the contributions should be acknowledged by the maintainer Mar 04 09:38:59 robsta: maybe some sources on typical linux foundation working ways would be god Mar 04 09:39:00 so...?? Mar 04 09:39:01 it's not about democracy at all Mar 04 09:39:01 good Mar 04 09:39:11 i think there's some info on governance page Mar 04 09:39:38 * w00t waves Mar 04 09:41:32 i think things are closer to how linux kernel was built really Mar 04 09:41:35 robsta: well, you confirmed my statement with every single point you made, even with the last one, given my definition of democracy is more close to what you might call teamwork, rather than what's your notion of democracy Mar 04 09:41:36 in terms of governance Mar 04 09:42:00 Stskeeps: your slip is showing Mar 04 09:42:20 :-> Mar 04 09:42:20 DocScrutinizer: http://meego.com/about/governance actually says it quite well Mar 04 09:43:16 DocScrutinizer: so why are people not taking few months and actually contribute stuff and build themselves a reputation before demanding to take part in architectural decisions? Mar 04 09:43:53 robsta: nobody is demanding that Mar 04 09:44:10 robsta: obviously you got something completely wrong Mar 04 09:44:44 i think he's actually right in this particular case Mar 04 09:44:57 it is the linux kernel development model Mar 04 09:45:07 robsta: well, plenty of people already have reputations, glancing over at the list of nicks in this room.... Mar 04 09:45:40 it would be different if we were starting from source size 0, btw Mar 04 09:46:10 Stskeeps: for certain parts of the architecture we actually do Mar 04 09:46:34 and that's exactly my point Mar 04 09:46:42 right, so raise the issue Mar 04 09:46:53 I did, se backscroll Mar 04 09:47:07 this isn't the correct medium for it, meego-dev is :P Mar 04 09:47:13 ack Mar 04 09:48:24 well, you can do it here too. I for one dont really understand what it is you are proposing or how FSO would workk with n900, what bits it would need, etc. Couldn't you just makke a fso.rpm and install it? Mar 04 09:48:47 so if you tell me meego-dev is the "window" to the few dudes in the pub I asked for, then I'm perfectly fine. But I wonder then why nobody mentioned that before Mar 04 09:49:19 DocScrutinizer: right now most -dev goes on there, but i'm hoping it seperates out into subsystems soon Mar 04 09:49:33 I think it might be closer to the window than this channel, considering that the supposed currently working architects might not use IRC Mar 04 09:49:38 and i think you should include a suggestion to do a mailing list for those things Mar 04 09:49:57 Mirv: nokians irc a lot, i mean, irc comes from finland.. Mar 04 09:49:57 :P Mar 04 09:50:29 jebba: with N900 modem driver added to FSO it would just work with FSO using phone software. there is currently Palm Pre support coming along, but N900 is yet to be reverse-engineered AFAIK Mar 04 09:50:41 is FSO ofono? Mar 04 09:50:49 well, does it have, rather Mar 04 09:50:53 no, ofono is different. Mar 04 09:51:24 jebba: FSO is just an example, but for the sake of not leaving a loose end: it's a middleware replacing the resource management deamons like mce et al we're used to see in maemo Mar 04 09:51:49 Morning, all Mar 04 09:51:52 heya Mar 04 09:52:06 FSO is a superset of ofono, though not 100% API compatible, so to say Mar 04 09:52:45 and ofono designers agree to disagree with FSO design decisions. it's quite given probably that ofono will be part of MeeGo, which is why it's quite interesting how stuff like FSO could be incorporated. Mar 04 09:52:47 ofono could be a driver for fso though, no? Like fso could dbus-send to ofono to control it. Mar 04 09:53:14 jebba: if ofono has a nice modem driver, both ofono could be beneath FSO like FSO could be beneath ofono with some hacking. Mar 04 09:53:44 Mirv: ofono uses isimodem (phonet kernel driver) for talking to n900. Mar 04 09:53:45 it's a bit similar, well not but in part, to ConnMan vs. Network Manager Mar 04 09:53:46 jebba: yes Mar 04 09:53:58 connman comes from intel/nokia land and will surely be in meego Mar 04 09:54:42 rpm/qt/gstreamer/connman/ofono/X seem to be near certainties. Mar 04 09:54:49 ofono roughly is what fsogsmd is in FSO Mar 04 09:55:45 other parts of FSO would replace MCE and dunno what else we got on maemo that's neither open nor really an integrated framework Mar 04 09:58:17 but no matter if we'll see FSO on meego or not, my main concern is a few dudes decide on that in a pub, probably by competing who can drink more beer. And none of them ever heard of FSO I'd bet. So either we make then aware of alternatives or we'll be confronted with poor decisions that are incredibly hard to revert later on Mar 04 09:58:44 DocScrutinizer: you're assuming they're idiots, which they are not :P Mar 04 09:59:30 Ya, id say if you want to makke them aware, meego-dev is your shot at it. Mar 04 10:00:02 Not exactly. I'd rather call myself an idiot if I'd not try to get some feedback for each of the decisions I had to make, if I were one of those dudes Mar 04 10:00:33 jebba: ack Mar 04 10:02:45 well maybe even s/feedback/inspiration/ Mar 04 10:03:21 ya, impossible for one small group to know all the huge ecosystem available to them Mar 04 10:03:34 as feedback includes debates and criticism which isn't always what you need in such a situation Mar 04 10:04:54 http://dilbert.com/fast ;) Mar 04 10:05:19 but a simple "hey fellas, tell us about the pros and cons of RPM and deb" never can hurt, huh? Mar 04 10:05:35 DocScrutinizer: they did, people didn't want to listen Mar 04 10:05:38 kept on going Mar 04 10:05:38 :P Mar 04 10:06:29 DocScrutinizer: don't you think the engineers know something about rpm and deb too? also many were hired from the community in the last years Mar 04 10:07:43 robsta: I really don't think *anybody* has a world knowledge. Last one supposed to be able to reach that state of wisdom was Goethe Mar 04 10:07:57 i thought it was John Stuart Mill Mar 04 10:09:51 * slaine lols Mar 04 10:09:57 not this shit again Mar 04 10:10:30 I guess it's been too quiet, and now somebody official has said something it's roused the masses Mar 04 10:10:55 yeah Mar 04 10:10:56 huh? another one not realizing RPM and deb are just placeholders Mar 04 10:11:39 "The white zone is for loading and unloading only" Mar 04 10:12:13 "The red zone is for loading and unloading only" Mar 04 10:12:22 Gah Mar 04 10:12:54 DocScrutinizer: the argument is organisational and tool-wise. Moblin brings a full setup of RPM-centered production technologies while Nokia has a setup that is to say the least, hardly sane (Scratchbox-centered, DEB-centered). This is the QA, builder, repositories, and so on - production tools that work from day one, instead of having to work several months to adjust Nokia+community tools+debian.org things Mar 04 10:13:28 thiago: no, it was the white zone, google said so ;) Mar 04 10:14:05 Stskeeps: so what? Mar 04 10:14:06 DocScrutinizer: there's no technical difference between deb and rpm as such, but it's about what can be brought to the table that's stable and works now Mar 04 10:14:21 slaine: it says "The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There is no stopping in the white zone." Mar 04 10:14:35 Stskeeps: ack. And I'm not at all interested in RPM vs deb Mar 04 10:15:02 DocScrutinizer: yes, me neither Mar 04 10:15:18 but it was just about the rpm vs deb discussion Mar 04 10:15:42 that it was tried to be communicated but noone accepted the argument cos of tunnel vision Mar 04 10:15:56 thiago: This is the central Scrutinizer. The white zone is for loading and unloading only. Mar 04 10:15:56 If you have to load or Unload, go to the White zone. You’ll love it. It’s a way of life. Mar 04 10:16:01 slaine: though I prefer "Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?" Mar 04 10:16:13 hmm, should listen to my guts feeling. Felt this might kick off a stupid new debate when I chose that example Mar 04 10:16:35 DocScrutinizer: we can s/rpm vs deb/X/ and it would still apply Mar 04 10:16:44 there was an announcement?? Mar 04 10:16:47