**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 12 02:59:57 2010 Mar 12 09:01:19 Whoo, Bjarne is coming to finland Mar 12 09:01:28 bjarne? Mar 12 09:01:33 yeah Mar 12 09:01:39 the man Mar 12 09:01:50 mind my cat is named bjarne and he's going nowhere, god damn it! Mar 12 09:01:51 ;) Mar 12 09:02:11 that's why I said bjarne-the-man, not bjarne-the-feline Mar 12 09:02:21 bjarne surname? Mar 12 09:02:27 stroustrup Mar 12 09:02:37 c++ bjarne Mar 12 09:03:42 ah Mar 12 09:03:55 and I rescent your implications - my cat was not named after stroustrup - if anything he'd be named kernighan-richie ;P Mar 12 09:05:49 http://www.ixonos.com/index.php?mid=1440 Mar 12 09:12:49 tybollt: lol, good one! Mar 12 12:06:35 Meego will run in any x86 (intel, adm, via) or just intel atom and arm? Mar 12 12:10:06 J_P: They'll target just Atom with the offical releases Mar 12 12:10:38 However, hopefully this time around, with a larger community and an open build system, we'll be able to generate generic x86 images Mar 12 12:10:43 That's my goal Mar 12 12:11:07 I want to run MeeGo Foundation as a base distro for embedded systems on generic x86 hardware Mar 12 12:11:08 slaine: ok Mar 12 12:11:39 I've tried this with Moblin 2.0 and 2.1 but not all their source rpms where rebuildable Mar 12 12:11:46 slaine: but for arm, will be eneric arm arch, not for just a company that make arm right? Mar 12 12:12:02 I've no idea if it'll be arm5 or arm7 Mar 12 12:12:10 perhaps there'll be both Mar 12 12:12:29 I'm guessing 7 for N900 reference. Mar 12 12:12:44 I might potentially be getting a Cortex A9 board to work on, so I'd like to see that supported (I think it's arm7 with extensions) Mar 12 12:22:03 slaine: I think suport >= cortex Ax is fine Mar 12 12:22:26 I've no prior experience with arm arch so it'll be fun :) Mar 12 12:22:45 slaine: they are vey more economy.. energy.. Mar 12 12:22:50 mw per clock Mar 12 12:23:25 anyway people will wnat to run in arm 9, arm 11, so I think the meego needs think this too Mar 12 12:23:30 nod, that's why I'm investigating them Mar 12 12:23:54 I have no experience on this, but isn't arm and intel atom sort of converging from different directions on some middle ground? Mar 12 12:24:11 'ish Mar 12 12:24:31 more like Intel are trying to drive x86 down into a power envelope that competes with ARM Mar 12 12:25:02 And meanwhile, ARM are improving their core so that it performs better with each revision, while staying within that power envelope Mar 12 12:25:10 excellent Mar 12 12:26:45 indeed, exciting times Mar 12 12:27:13 Of course, Intel are a long way off the ARM power envelope Mar 12 12:27:39 But as they drive down, they're opening up new areas due to the ubiquitous nature of x86 software. Mar 12 12:28:03 good example, http://arstechnica.com/business/news/2010/03/intels-nas-specific-atom-platform-hastens-pcification.ars Mar 12 12:33:09 tbh, software I care about already runs on arm, but I can see the point of having closed source solutions work on it for those who like that kind of thing... Mar 12 14:35:22 The Big Merge is alive? Mar 12 14:35:43 hmm? Mar 12 14:36:02 Stskeeps: are there a ropadmap for meego? Mar 12 14:36:07 *RoadMap Mar 12 14:36:45 dunno Mar 12 14:37:17 There is, but not a public one. Mar 12 14:39:02 TigerTael: why not. I read this in meego "The governance model is based on the principles of simplicity, efficiency, and transparent collaboration. The MeeGo project lives under the auspices of the Linux Foundation." Mar 12 14:39:13 this is not transparency Mar 12 14:39:22 day one has not started yet Mar 12 14:39:28 J_P, You're preaching to the choir... Mar 12 14:39:33 But Stskeeps has a point. Mar 12 14:39:35 and yes, we all agree, but there's no code Mar 12 14:39:41 and http://meego.com/about/overview/faq is broken Mar 12 14:39:49 and no organisation Mar 12 14:39:52 they'yre going to do a big reveal Mar 12 14:40:01 then we'll be allowed to get involved Mar 12 14:40:06 at least it sounds like there's lofty goals Mar 12 14:41:05 A BIG REVEAL Mar 12 14:41:09 It almost sounds exciting. Mar 12 14:41:31 "Tadaaaa, look what we made" Mar 12 14:41:39 yeah Mar 12 14:42:04 in other words, from where we're standing, nothing has changed from maemo/moblin mentality Mar 12 14:42:15 which sucks, agreed Mar 12 14:42:21 hehe Mar 12 14:42:32 but let's get off to a better start on day one Mar 12 14:42:33 I can understand why, so I'm not flaming Mar 12 14:42:40 not yet ;) Mar 12 14:42:57 after day one we can whine as much as we want.. and most people are tired of arguing Mar 12 14:43:01 yup, once day 1 rolls along, things better have changed Mar 12 14:43:11 very true Mar 12 14:43:17 * slaine waves to jmc93739653 Mar 12 14:43:26 We have here more than just a software merge. Intel "don't like" ARM and nokia use ARM. a merge from two companies where are uwing diferents hardware.. Mar 12 14:43:27 and want to work instead of discuss Mar 12 14:43:29 thats is strange.. Mar 12 14:43:42 J_P: no, it is not a conspiracy Mar 12 14:43:51 ...will normally lead to one branch of hardware dying? Mar 12 14:44:00 J_P: Nokia will be using Atoms in products, so it's not that strange Mar 12 14:44:05 *shrug* arm vs. x86, the only thing that "should" care is the kernel Mar 12 14:44:16 will be intel doing a revolutionary next generation of atom for mobile with big competition with arm (mw per clock) and nokia will be that ? Mar 12 14:44:31 lupine_85 and availability of drivers for gl and x Mar 12 14:44:47 J_P: that's the plan Mar 12 14:44:59 RST38h: There is no way either x86 or ARM are going to die. Mar 12 14:45:06 (citation needed), slaine Mar 12 14:45:09 you need arms. Mar 12 14:45:12 revolutionary next generation of atom is still doomed to be worse than new ARM chips in terms of oomph/power consumption Mar 12 14:45:24 it'll be interesting to see how intel's mobile iron stacks up against arm, but I can't see it being particularly competititive Mar 12 14:45:36 slaine: reaaly? Mar 12 14:45:36 x86 has too much 20-year-old (and counting) garbage Mar 12 14:45:38 And guess which one branch... Mar 12 14:45:43 slaine: I read up on OpenCORE and it deals with multimedia, not 2D/3D gfx h/w accel. Mar 12 14:45:44 we use atoms a fair bit at work and they're revolutionary compared to standard x86 Mar 12 14:45:48 slaine: nokia N910 with intel x86? Mar 12 14:46:09 Lupine: how exactly? =) Mar 12 14:46:16 RST38h: powerpc? Mar 12 14:46:23 in terms of power usage Mar 12 14:46:28 Stskeeps: Oh, noooo... Mar 12 14:46:39 arachnist: Intel will be using a dedicated power management ASIC for Moorestown. (Intel calls the PMU something entirely different than the rest of the embedded world, naturally.) Mar 12 14:46:50 pretty cheap to run compared with standard x86 Mar 12 14:46:58 'though it's a shame about the ?northbridge4 Mar 12 14:47:13 No ASIC, afaik Mar 12 14:47:19 the plan is nokia release smarphone with intel x86 and not arm? Mar 12 14:47:19 But anyways Mar 12 14:47:38 J_P: what do we know of hw plans? this is software Mar 12 14:47:54 okay, it's been fun, but I'm off. Mar 12 14:48:08 J_P: Nokia has been working with next-generation samples of Intel Atom SoC's & support chips to assess their suitability in future products. Mar 12 14:48:08 See, http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2010/02/intel-and-nokia-making-more-than-linux.ars and http://www.semiaccurate.com/2010/02/08/intel-and-nokia-make-chip/ Mar 12 14:48:14 Stskeeps: wee are talking a about meego (merge) that inlucinding interestiong, and hardware is one Mar 12 14:48:33 meego is on sw level Mar 12 14:48:39 which makes a lot of sense Mar 12 14:48:50 jmc93739653: humm interesting.. Mar 12 14:48:54 rest is idle speculation Mar 12 14:49:21 Stskeeps: not. The sucess the Meego depends sucess of nokia and intel. Mar 12 14:49:36 sigh Mar 12 14:49:55 and hardware is 50% Mar 12 14:50:01 please elaborate since you sound like you forgot your tinfoil hat when entering Mar 12 14:50:26 ooh, if the semiaccurate article is at least semiaccurate, I'll be in the market for a new phone at exactly the right time :) Mar 12 14:52:41 Well, my conclusion is that this merge has total significance if nokia will be use a next generation of intel processor in smartphones.. If not this merge still confuse.. Mar 12 14:53:00 it increases everyones choice. Mar 12 14:53:24 no need to use x86 for moblin, no need to use arm for maemo. Mar 12 14:54:06 it cuts a lot of cruft from both. Mar 12 14:54:06 shame it wasn't called moeboo Mar 12 14:54:12 moemoo? Mar 12 14:54:19 moolin Mar 12 14:54:28 Stskeeps: forget just portable software (x86 and arm). looks about the future, the intresting.. of each company. Money is the objetive of Meego. Community will be help. Mar 12 14:54:51 well, it's certainly not a charitable organisation Mar 12 14:55:01 because this I say that 50% this merge (I think) is hardware Mar 12 14:55:17 yes, we all want food on the table and debian on every flat panel Mar 12 14:55:34 Anyway, I ove linux and Love maemo and I wait better for this merge.. Mar 12 14:55:39 I see the merge more about putting efforts together in a common linux platform based in standards, than keep reinventing the well with in-house efforts Mar 12 14:55:57 *wheel Mar 12 14:55:59 VDVsx: thankyou for bringing your sanity with you Mar 12 14:56:02 it's delusional to think this does not involve money obviously Mar 12 14:57:40 That and toolchains. Always the toolchains. Mar 12 14:58:09 i haven't seen codesourcery mentioned yet Mar 12 14:59:36 Intel is giving (was giving?) away Atom optimised, Intel-branded C/C++ compilers. (Better support for in-order execution, as the Atom eschewed out-of-order-execution (OoOE) in lieu of hyper-threading.) Mar 12 14:59:52 icc? Mar 12 15:00:04 lupine_85: Yes Mar 12 15:00:15 I've seen a lot of people <3 at it, but I'd rather stick with gcc :) Mar 12 15:00:39 <3 people use icc ? Mar 12 15:01:05 surely there's at least 5 Mar 12 15:01:18 <3 is an heart Mar 12 15:01:25 slaine: From what I've heard, icc can be used for pretty much all of Linux, excepting the kernel and glibc, libstdc++, etc. Mar 12 15:01:28 €> Mar 12 15:01:38 icc is nice, as long as it works and doesn't bork your code Mar 12 15:01:42 I was being a smart ass Mar 12 15:01:46 oh sorry Mar 12 15:01:59 No, I should be sorry Mar 12 15:01:59 jmc93739653: i've seen quite a bit of c++ that doesn't compile with intel c++ compilers Mar 12 15:02:05 slaine: But one can always port software to use icc's standard C & C++ libs in the stead of GNU's offerings. Mar 12 15:02:23 arachnist: MSFT VC++ or GCC C++? Mar 12 15:02:40 jmc93739653: gcc c++ Mar 12 15:03:00 jmc93739653: i wouldn't put msft vc++ anywhere near c++ Mar 12 15:03:47 * lupine_85 will stick with gcc Mar 12 15:04:01 then 10 years in the future, my code will compile on amd chips :) Mar 12 15:04:15 AMD chips? Mar 12 15:04:33 AMD has their own proprietary compilers, IIRC Mar 12 15:04:33 lupine_85: it's not compiling that's the issue Mar 12 15:05:12 lupine_85: the issue's that intel compilers make code assume they're on 486 if the chip is not GenuineIntel Mar 12 15:05:22 fun fun Mar 12 15:06:13 arachnist: bootstrapping, relative equivalent performance for both x86 and ARM from a single code-base. Packaging & dependency revamp, both compile-time "BuildRequires" & runtime "Requires". Mar 12 15:06:42 i look forward for clang to get more mature Mar 12 15:06:54 recently it got self-hosting Mar 12 15:06:59 lupine_85: there has to be a way to kludge a GenuineIntel string in the CPUID. iasl DSDT files perhaps? Mar 12 15:07:20 who knows. I'll still stick with gcc :) Mar 12 15:09:30 (I know _very_ little about ACPI, do _not_ take my word for anything related, unless I get my geek on. Interestingly Moblin-2.0 & 2.1's acpi repository was the reference implementation for ACPICA's recemt 4.0 spec rev.) Mar 12 15:11:50 I've used clang's analyzer stuff. pretty handy Mar 12 15:12:29 slaine: Nice. LLVM & its derivative projects are impressive, but rather foreboding to me. Mar 12 15:12:46 foreboding ? Mar 12 15:12:47 \ Mar 12 15:13:51 eh? Mar 12 15:13:54 "to have an inward conviction of, as of a calamity which is about to happen" (Webster's 1913 second definition.) Mar 12 15:14:07 So, what calamity do you expect from LLVM? Mar 12 15:17:51 slaine & RST38h: Nothing, really. The project & its architecture is quite elegant, and not a typical 'source --> IR --> ISA' stack. LLVM's open project "VMKit" is very cool, but it, in many ways is "over my head" with my present knowledge. Mar 12 15:18:54 probably mine too. But I can still use it as a tool Mar 12 15:19:05 I've no idea how my leatherman was made, but I use it all the time Mar 12 15:19:32 slaine & RST38h: I've learned enough to understand I know very little. :-) And I have no shame in flatly declaring when I have no clue as to the particulars of various computing technologies. Mar 12 15:20:10 Then it is no foreboding :) Mar 12 15:22:48 * jmc93739653 is still rather off-topic. . . RST38h: You're correct. I was being rather hyperbolic, in hindsight. LLVM has fallen under the category of "seriously fascinating projects I do not have a defensible excuse to invest the time in studying. Yet. :-) Mar 12 15:38:06 OK, the Intel PDF Hannibal linked to is awesome. Mar 12 15:42:10 There's a reason Intel invested 7,000,000,000 USD in April 2009 for upgrading their semi fabs for 32 nm process nodes. Mar 12 15:44:11 Then again, it always has been a race between Intel's impressive fabrication capacities & ARM's licensing partners/ecosystem abilities to make Cortex silicon more than just a sea of paper-launches. Mar 12 15:45:17 yum, 32nm Mar 12 16:40:01 busy channel Mar 12 16:40:05 hi all Mar 12 16:40:11 very busy Mar 12 16:40:50 Are any of you guys willing to give any advice to a complete n00b Mar 12 16:41:03 no Mar 12 16:41:11 a newbie on the other hand, yes Mar 12 16:41:21 :) Mar 12 16:41:27 a newbie Mar 12 16:41:40 :) Mar 12 16:41:58 i'm looking at trying to get my foot in the door before meego is here of some code if possible Mar 12 16:42:08 but am wondering where to start. Mar 12 16:42:32 i think the repo should be out anytime now Mar 12 16:42:47 i have tried object orientated coding such as C but no idea what or how to code for meego Mar 12 16:43:21 you mean C++? Mar 12 16:43:33 C is not OO :P Mar 12 16:43:37 well I'd imagine the base / backend is C or C++ Mar 12 16:43:44 the apps are written in Qt Mar 12 16:44:00 is it Q T or is it cute? Mar 12 16:44:04 cute Mar 12 16:44:07 kk Mar 12 16:44:22 i say cutey Mar 12 16:44:24 (hence the spelling ;) ) Mar 12 16:44:29 then he says "fag" :( Mar 12 16:44:33 CosmoHill: Which is wrong - whether you like it or not ;) Mar 12 16:44:45 quiet in here tonight Mar 12 16:44:51 :D Mar 12 16:45:32 so the apps are written in QT Mar 12 16:45:34 not clutter? Mar 12 16:45:40 Qt Mar 12 16:45:47 * VDVsx has a funny history with "cute", now avoids that and use Q T instead :p Mar 12 16:46:05 [12/3-2010 16:49:33] __ed: [QT] QT is Apple's QuickTime. You probably mean Qt, the toolkit by Qt Software/Nokia. Mar 12 16:46:09 ah i see Mar 12 16:46:15 i was saying it with an upper case T Mar 12 17:01:57 ? Mar 12 17:05:17 rawr Mar 12 17:08:44 sorry back had customers to serve tut Mar 12 17:09:25 so what can i start to read to learn to code for cute Mar 12 17:09:46 Th3ChaS3r: there are some official tutorials to be found on the qt page. Mar 12 17:09:53 do you know c++ already? Mar 12 17:10:01 no i dont th0br0 Mar 12 17:10:11 do you know any programming languages at al`? Mar 12 17:10:16 :-( Mar 12 17:10:23 mmh... Mar 12 17:10:28 exactly :D Mar 12 17:10:44 well, there are a couple of options now open for you... Mar 12 17:10:47 are you thinking shit creek canal no paddle Mar 12 17:11:32 well, i'd say, learn some scripting language and do oop Mar 12 17:11:34 probably better start with something easy like Python Mar 12 17:11:42 oop? Mar 12 17:11:55 once you know those concepts either dive into some java as the syntax is pretty similar or move directly to c++ Mar 12 17:11:59 object oriented programming Mar 12 17:12:38 or well, learn python and move to c++ from there on Mar 12 17:14:22 ok Mar 12 17:14:24 ty Mar 12 17:20:16 Is there code yet? Mar 12 17:24:07 Blice: no. not yet Mar 12 18:14:41 /smarphone with MeeGo and intel atom.. http://www.gsmarena.com/lg_gw990-3164.php Mar 12 18:16:15 slaine: you was right about the plan ;-) Mar 12 18:16:39 Long life for MeeGo :-) Mar 12 18:19:01 J_P, that hardware demoed at CES running Moblin Mar 12 18:19:08 you tube for it Mar 12 18:19:34 slaine: yes I know. But gsmarena write as meego heehh Mar 12 18:19:53 slaine: well, now will be just one moblin and maemo: meego Mar 12 18:19:55 ;-) Mar 12 18:20:23 think that's using the moorsetown Atom CPU which isn't really that great for a phone to be honest Mar 12 18:20:40 would be good for a MID type device, like the nokia n810 Mar 12 18:21:13 medfield iirc, the next tick in the Intel tick/tock cycle for Atom will be where Intel aggressively push Atom for smart phones Mar 12 18:21:13 slaine: yes, but are not problem to have models with less size.. Mar 12 18:22:09 slaine: yes, the game will change.. x86 in smarphones.. Mar 12 18:22:22 this apear real scenario.. Mar 12 18:22:32 Won't be the end for ARM though, not by a long way Mar 12 18:23:46 slaine: yes, arm has other market place too.. and have (still) much more hardware developemnt kits.. Mar 12 18:24:32 slaine: actually any people can to buy one kit arm and development a board, I wait that with intel to be the same Mar 12 18:27:25 J_P: random question, are you here to troll or contribute? Mar 12 18:28:10 Stskeeps: contribute.. Mar 12 18:28:33 good Mar 12 18:28:52 btw, speaking of trolls, where's lan ? Mar 12 18:28:55 * VDVsx hides Mar 12 18:28:58 rofl Mar 12 19:06:56 can anyone else get to http://www.xbmc.org/ Mar 12 20:22:00 I don't know if this is the right place for this question but anyway: I'm using QTcreator (download from meego.com) and has support just for C++. Are plans for add support for Python on QTcreator? Mar 12 20:22:33 i have no idea Mar 12 20:22:47 but iirc Qt is basically C++ with some differences Mar 12 20:35:41 qtcreator from meego.com o.O? Mar 12 20:36:04 J_P: http://lists.trolltech.com/pipermail/qt-creator/2009-March/002225.html Mar 12 21:31:59 http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9168418/ARM_sees_over_50_new_iPad_like_devices_out_this_year Mar 12 21:32:24 48 of them from random Chinese companies the size of a medium garage Mar 12 23:49:23 cyas Mar 13 02:07:10 hello how can i join RPM repository group, though it has yet to be approved by technical steering committe Mar 13 02:07:16 http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group Mar 13 02:12:27 ping th0br0 **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 13 02:59:57 2010