**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 24 02:59:57 2010 Mar 24 04:03:44 hi all Mar 24 07:14:44 morning qgil :) Mar 24 07:15:12 heya Mar 24 07:16:44 * thiago_home looks at the internal Nokia meego mailing list after one day not reading it and wonders if someone caused a flamewar Mar 24 07:17:03 not even the RPM vs DEB discussion caused 100 emails in one day, did it? Mar 24 07:18:31 don't think so, but people had to join the list first Mar 24 07:21:09 same thing about this one Mar 24 07:21:14 I sent qgil an email about it on Monday Mar 24 07:21:34 but, then again, Nokia people don't have ML skills: they are cross-posting to other MLs and doing reply-to-all Mar 24 07:21:53 qgil: added you with founder flag and DawnFoster as op on #meego-meeting so you can set moderated channel mode tonight - I would have given founder flag to both of you, but only 4 founders is allowed :P Mar 24 07:24:28 Stskeeps: is there anything I should learn? I have never got meaningful permission in a IRC channel... Mar 24 07:25:12 on Freenode, you almost never need it Mar 24 07:25:30 qgil: sec, preparing a crash course Mar 24 07:25:39 Stskeeps: just make sure the channel isn't mlocked to -m Mar 24 07:25:45 thiago_home: yeah, checking that Mar 24 07:26:54 qgil: /msg chanserv op #meego-meeting ops you, /mode #meego-meeting +m sets moderated mode (only ops and voices can speak), /mode #meego-meeting +v nickname makes someone have voice flag, .. at the end of it all, /mode #meego-meeting -m Mar 24 07:27:07 qgil: if there's any issues during the meeting feel free to prod me Mar 24 07:27:38 Stskeeps: sure Mar 24 07:28:36 thiago_home: yesterday night I got again the question about Qt governance - second time in 2 weeks and nobody had asked me that ever before Mar 24 07:29:18 thiago_home: and from another FDO prominent Mar 24 07:31:58 contribution model info is online Mar 24 07:32:00 point them there Mar 24 07:32:12 suggestions on how to improve are all welcome Mar 24 07:37:57 Internal lists. Open indeed. :rolleyes: Mar 24 07:38:26 GAN900: huh? Mar 24 07:38:35 EVERY company has internal lists Mar 24 07:38:42 this is an internal list for meego discussion Mar 24 07:38:45 so what? Mar 24 07:38:51 we have one to discuss the competition Mar 24 07:38:55 we have one to discuss open source Mar 24 07:39:02 we have one to discuss sport in Oslo Mar 24 07:40:53 Ah you conspiring bastards! Mar 24 07:41:08 * RST38h goes to find some tar and feathers =) Mar 24 07:41:13 conspiring about making meego summit a sports event in oslo, obviously Mar 24 07:41:16 ;) Mar 24 07:41:54 More seriously though, I doubt there is going any "open qt governance", especially considering that Qt is being used in Symbian as well Mar 24 07:42:22 what does open governance mean anyway? democracy doesn't work for sure :P Mar 24 07:42:48 Stskeeps: I doubt people who advocate it ever think of what it means Mar 24 07:43:08 Open source is not surely a democracy :) Mar 24 07:43:17 Details are boring and cause all kinds of ugly consequences :) Mar 24 07:44:11 Anssi__: it all bends down to commit access :P Mar 24 07:45:15 Stskeeps, yes, and that is a good thing, focus is on doing things. Mar 24 07:45:19 yeah Mar 24 07:45:56 * Stskeeps is a big fan of that you have a right to complain about things after contributing (or trying to) Mar 24 07:45:59 :P Mar 24 07:46:01 but not before Mar 24 07:50:10 thiago, then the "everything will happen in the open in MeeGo" refrain I keep hearing should probably be dialed down. Mar 24 07:51:21 GAN900: if it's discussion and not decision-making by the project, i think they do have a right to discuss things internally as well without being afraid of NDA breaches.. Mar 24 07:51:37 Stskeeps, oh, I don't disagree Mar 24 07:52:10 Waking up at 3 in the morning for no reason and reading insanity on Talk tends to put me in the trolling mood. Mar 24 07:52:17 oh, right, voting Mar 24 07:52:38 * Stskeeps ponders to vote by merit instead of mission Mar 24 07:52:59 It's just vaguely hypocritical after all the talk I keep hearing. ;) Mar 24 07:56:27 * Stskeeps just hopes the best for the bootstrap tonight Mar 24 07:57:58 I suspect a lot of people will be hugely disappointed. Mar 24 07:59:23 at least we'll know by then Mar 24 07:59:35 and people can then take situation to heart, fork, fight, etc Mar 24 08:04:15 GAN900, there are always alternative platforms. Too early to cry for closeness, it is how developers make it. Mar 24 08:04:52 Anssi__, don't worry about convincing me. I'm just trolling idly. ;) Mar 24 08:05:39 i am trying convince myself too ;) Mar 24 08:30:08 I guess in free software projects governance = roadmapping Mar 24 08:30:23 but roadmaping in free software projects is not always the same as roadmapping in a company roadmap Mar 24 08:30:34 but then you have free software projects driven by a company Mar 24 08:30:44 so... how is roadmapping there? :) Mar 24 08:31:40 in free software projects governance is also (and actually more important than roadmapping) commit rights Mar 24 08:32:14 so... OSS governance = commit rights + roadmapping? Mar 24 08:33:08 GAN900: the internal discussion thiago refers to makes sense inside Nokia Mar 24 08:33:19 GAN900: if it would be public you would be rolling your eyes even more Mar 24 08:33:39 Yes, qgil, I get it. Goes back to that confusing Harmattan stuff. Mar 24 08:33:40 GAN900: saying "why can't they figure out this before?" Mar 24 08:33:43 qgil: commit rights != maintainership Mar 24 08:33:46 sounds like sifting from chain of command to politics. Mar 24 08:33:48 * GAN900 <- trolling Mar 24 08:34:01 commit rights don't mean much if you're not the maintainer Mar 24 08:34:05 participating is key word Mar 24 08:34:08 keyword Mar 24 08:34:26 so... OSS governance = maintenance - simple as that Mar 24 08:34:40 Having a voice seems reasonably open enough in a company run open source project. Mar 24 08:35:07 Don't need to steer or have final say, but having A say is important. Mar 24 08:35:37 GAN900: having A say does depend on your involvement developing or deployeing a piece of software Mar 24 08:35:46 GAN900: I think Qt has already that level Mar 24 08:36:35 is symbian on that level too? Mar 24 08:40:16 Anssi__: http://www.symbian.org/members/member-programs/governance Mar 24 08:43:46 council look very closed in terms of represented communities. Mar 24 08:45:11 GAN900: i wonder if a political talk ban on election week would be good Mar 24 08:45:12 :P Mar 24 08:45:26 Stskeeps, as far as? Mar 24 08:46:11 as in giving the voters peace to think about the candidates - we have no political discussion while an election is on, here :P Mar 24 08:46:21 Stskeeps, oh, the thread. Mar 24 08:46:32 Yeah, bizarre Mar 24 08:47:06 I'll just stick to palm greasing and blackmail, then. :P Mar 24 08:47:06 thiago writes "Yes, I added that warning in Qt 4.6" (if all product managers would have 10% of Thiago's technical experience have no doubt this would be a better world) Mar 24 08:47:21 i think this is better link for foss governance: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source_governance Mar 24 08:48:16 Anssi__: "better link"? you asked for Symbian governance :) Mar 24 08:49:15 Anssi__: "Some envision this form of governance as a post-national "virtual state" governing structure" Mar 24 08:49:30 sorry but with my European background I have difficulties readiong after that point Mar 24 08:49:59 qgil, not really link, just you opinion how OSS governance work on different developer communities, e.g. Symbian and Qt Mar 24 08:50:05 let's have a 100 post thread about OSS governance! ;) Mar 24 09:53:21 question from a rpm ignorant: do Fedora or OpenSuse have an equivalent to http://wiki.debian.org/DebianExperimental ? Mar 24 09:54:12 well, they have many seperate repositories instead i think, where debian centers around one Mar 24 09:57:01 qgil, fedora has rawhide Mar 24 09:57:15 qgil, not sure about suse Mar 24 09:57:19 qgil: openSUSE has openSUSE:Factory Mar 24 09:57:26 qgil: which is the latest, greatest bleeding edge stuff. Mar 24 10:02:12 zaheerm-lp mmeeks thanks, that was quick Mar 24 10:02:30 qgil, yw Mar 24 10:02:39 (and no wonder my search skills abnd my Debian terminology didn't bring me anywhere after 5 minutes) ;) Mar 24 10:04:38 qgil, in a new country a guidebook and dictionary is good. we should all have those headsets from BCN and a personal translator :D Mar 24 10:05:07 qgil: feel free to add a wiki page w/ initial terminology translations ;-) Mar 24 10:05:50 lcuk, babelfish? Mar 24 10:06:14 i was thinking more a wiki page, but that will suffice lol Mar 24 10:39:15 I enjoy learning a new English word almost every six months, when a new Ubuntu release starts Mar 24 10:40:18 qgil: *grin* Mar 24 10:40:56 it's also lots of fun to guess what the next release will be called Mar 24 10:41:28 mangy manatee Mar 24 10:41:39 Ubuntu 10.10 Maggoty Monkey Mar 24 10:41:59 see, hours of fun Mar 24 10:48:39 m? I'm expecting the next Ubuntu release to go for "lÂ·l", which has even an own Unicode graph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%BF#Catalan Mar 24 10:49:32 10.04 IS the L release Mar 24 10:49:37 Lucid Lynx Mar 24 10:49:55 sure, I mean after Lucid Lynx Mar 24 10:50:02 what does it mean? is it short for tie fighter? Mar 24 10:50:56 after that we could consider "ll", which is counted as one letter in Spanish Mar 24 10:51:07 (and I'm joking, just in case it was not clear) ;) Mar 24 10:52:10 I'm totally confused Mar 24 11:04:03 qgil, :) Mar 24 11:04:29 slaine, there is a letter that is written as 2 consecutive ls Mar 24 11:04:42 but is considered a single letter Mar 24 11:04:58 and goes in alphabet between l and m Mar 24 11:07:17 I gathered :) Mar 24 11:10:15 and has a very different pronounciation to 2 consecutive ls in english Mar 24 11:31:05 http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7345/1.html NILFS filesystem for solid state drives. logs, versions, rollbacks Mar 24 11:35:16 * thiago wonders if after the 26th release we'll go for Ă† or Ă„ Mar 24 11:35:34 pupnik: cool, I meant to read that when it first came out but never got around to it :) Mar 24 11:36:06 thiago: :-) Mar 24 11:36:23 im liking this rollback your screwups ability Mar 24 11:36:37 zfs :P Mar 24 11:36:51 Maemo had trouble finding wind names for the I release Mar 24 11:36:52 was talk of using btrfs for this. I know fedora where looking at it Mar 24 11:37:11 id like a sysrem that goes to last known bootable state when it cant boot fully Mar 24 11:37:16 fecking site, no print version of the article Mar 24 11:38:16 I don't know if the Harmattan++ codename has been revealed yet Mar 24 11:39:34 thiago: MeeGo 1.1 ? Mar 24 11:39:36 ;) Mar 24 11:40:06 we still refer to the Harmattan++ release by its codename Mar 24 11:40:24 even though it's a full MeeGo version (I don't know _which_) Mar 24 11:41:19 i wonder where codenames come from, is there an app i can download to generate new project codenames? Mar 24 11:41:45 lcuk: just google for all the ubuntu naming jokes Mar 24 11:41:45 like www.classnamer.com Mar 24 11:41:48 we use that for Qt :-) Mar 24 11:41:54 nah, easier than that. smash ur head 4 times against the keyboard in a 90° angle. Mar 24 11:42:18 lol thiago why doesnt that surprise me! Mar 24 11:42:33 * lcuk prefers lower case c names, its easier to type Mar 24 11:42:43 _ is a shift-key Mar 24 11:42:52 it's like Git's @{u} Mar 24 11:42:58 * thiago has export U=@{u} Mar 24 11:43:01 so I can just use $U Mar 24 11:43:42 thiago: hahaha. Mar 24 11:45:39 * burchr bookmarks that Mar 24 12:40:03 haha **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 24 21:08:15 2010 Mar 24 21:08:17 tsg is for the later case ;) Mar 24 21:08:40 I knew the community stuff would be hot Mar 24 21:09:51 GeneralAntilles: I figured I ask, to confirm Mar 24 21:10:54 Texrat: I'm trying to reply to the Director's Cut questions at the same time ;-) Mar 24 21:11:02 Jaffa: glad they picked your follow-up question also Mar 24 21:11:24 thanks Jaffa... curious to see your response to mine. ;) Mar 24 21:11:24 Checking through the logs, someone asked what platforms would be supported and the answer was OMAP3 and Atom Mar 24 21:11:44 currently Mar 24 21:11:50 CosmoHill: Isn't that how they do it in Venuezula? i.e. a "are you happy with this decision? yes/no" election? Mar 24 21:12:02 no idea Mar 24 21:12:05 Is this confirmation that theres no chance MeeGo will be built to ARMv6 for OMAP2/N810? Mar 24 21:12:14 Termana_n810: doubt it Mar 24 21:12:18 Termana_n810: the answer was N900. OMAP3 is not quite a unified platform Mar 24 21:12:19 CosmoHill: i.e. it's a bit Banana Republic. Mar 24 21:12:41 Termana_n810: you can always get the entire distro rebuilt Mar 24 21:12:41 Termana_n810: I don't think there is a "all omap3 systems" kind of thing that's actually doable easily Mar 24 21:12:51 when I've become a member of something I've just been picked by the mods / admin Mar 24 21:12:56 Termana_n810: If everything is opensource, then it is just a matter of recompile. Mar 24 21:13:04 and nobody objected (that i know of) Mar 24 21:13:07 DocScrutinizer: Maemo _Community_ Council. ;) Mar 24 21:13:09 X-Fade: on an omap2 it can take a while ;-) Mar 24 21:13:23 Not if you consider that the repo might be armv7 only Mar 24 21:13:28 arjan: Doesn't need to be _on_ device ;) Mar 24 21:13:58 DocScrutinizer: questions only in #meego-meeting-questions Mar 24 21:14:16 GeneralAntilles: hasn't DocScrutinizer already asked a question there? Mar 24 21:14:17 ahh, ok Mar 24 21:14:51 I'm incredibly late Mar 24 21:14:52 heh Mar 24 21:14:53 qgil: if you're voting, why not do it the meetbot way Mar 24 21:14:56 working group (WG) a real hot button Mar 24 21:15:08 Myrtti: qgil is not in this channel Mar 24 21:15:10 <-- captain obvious Mar 24 21:15:14 *sigh* Mar 24 21:15:14 is there a log I can glance over to catchup ? Mar 24 21:15:15 * achipa is still curious how the repository-story will play out in this multi-vendor multi-arch multi-UI meego world Mar 24 21:15:32 ^ Mar 24 21:15:36 well that's handy Mar 24 21:15:39 achipa that is a big one Mar 24 21:15:58 achipa: I'm curious about everything related to that. ;) Mar 24 21:16:01 achipa: heh - see my recent QUESTION .... :) Mar 24 21:16:35 there should have been a PRE-PRE-MEETING Mar 24 21:16:35 GeneralAntilles: probably for some europeans, the wording "this channel for questions only" would be a litle less ambiguous ;-) Mar 24 21:16:35 achipa: it's unfortunate that Nokia wants to push their own differentiation in favor of real cross-vendor compatibility (where it is technologically and UX-feasible, of course). Mar 24 21:16:58 DocScrutinizer: hey, don't talk to me, _I_ didn't set the topic. *g* Mar 24 21:17:04 i'm starting to think that nobody knows the answer Mar 24 21:17:13 which is good I guess. Mar 24 21:17:24 Texrat: why are you pushing palm here ? ;) Mar 24 21:17:26 slaine, I don't know if meetbot generates instantaneous minutes or not Mar 24 21:17:31 means there's giant hidden conspiracy behinds the scene :) Mar 24 21:17:34 Wee, community "represented" by the self-selecting dictators. Mar 24 21:17:35 I don't know if I can be bothered to point the fact that the meetbot has real voting functions in it Mar 24 21:17:39 ok, can someone give me an overview Mar 24 21:17:44 s/there's/there's not Mar 24 21:17:49 achipa that only Palm I'm pushing is into my face Mar 24 21:17:52 slaine, For the raw logs: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-24-19.58.log.txt Mar 24 21:17:55 are we boned or is all sweet and sunshine or is it somewhere in between ? Mar 24 21:18:00 javispedro: no, you had it right the first time. *eg* Mar 24 21:18:44 we have seen the FUD, and it is us... or them... Mar 24 21:19:22 GeneralAntilles, Just want to point out that both Imad & valhalla were very pro a MeeGo community council earlier Mar 24 21:19:40 * lbt wonders about the utility of a voting function with 2 voters present... Mar 24 21:19:57 unanomous dissent Mar 24 21:20:10 <@valhalla_> YES I agree and I support creating this WG as written in the proposal -- time to move forward Mar 24 21:20:19 2 people in a TG is asking for trouble btw ;) Mar 24 21:20:27 Needs to be uneven number. Mar 24 21:20:31 it could provide anonymous votes I guess ;) Mar 24 21:20:43 agree with X-Fade Mar 24 21:20:44 X-Fade you start somewhere Mar 24 21:20:49 X-Fade: depends if one of them is bigger than the other... Mar 24 21:21:00 proposal: one from Intel, one from Nokia, one elected from community at large Mar 24 21:21:09 lbt they are on different continents :) Mar 24 21:21:33 Texrat: TECHNICAL should be merit-based. Mar 24 21:21:41 ? Mar 24 21:21:42 Texrat: but limit its mandate to technical issues. Mar 24 21:21:47 Who'd you bet for, the US or Finland, in a violent contest? ;-) Mar 24 21:21:49 ah, ok Mar 24 21:21:53 i.e., not democratically selected. Mar 24 21:21:59 ooookay... Mar 24 21:22:01 lbt: gives the moral satisfaction you cannot be voted over Mar 24 21:22:06 maybe electoral? :D Mar 24 21:22:21 Jaffa: what weapons? Mar 24 21:22:30 whoever hacks the voting system first is on the TSG Mar 24 21:22:33 hey the Finns are tough ya'll Mar 24 21:22:42 * GeneralAntilles says we select the TSG by throwing bones. Mar 24 21:22:51 especially those tundra-loving Sami Mar 24 21:23:12 * Texrat throws GeneralAntilles bones Mar 24 21:23:47 Thanks valhalla! Mar 24 21:24:09 thanks dneary Mar 24 21:25:06 Yay, the CWG co-chairs (self-selected) now define a proposal for a *community* council. Mar 24 21:25:09 Hmm. Mar 24 21:25:13 * Jaffa is in a bitter mood. Mar 24 21:25:21 yeah Jaffa wtf Mar 24 21:25:23 ... Mar 24 21:25:24 * achipa ponders about the fact that in Hungarian 'merit' means to dip or to draw on Mar 24 21:25:26 Probably being overly cynical Mar 24 21:25:31 not the mood, but what you said Mar 24 21:25:35 Jaffa: how about asking the community council people to organize the WG a bit like the maemo group was organized ? Mar 24 21:25:39 I bet they'd be very open to that Mar 24 21:25:44 sure we would be Mar 24 21:25:49 for the next week Mar 24 21:25:51 Jaffa: to be fair -- Quim was in a similar position when the Maemo Community Council was formed Mar 24 21:26:07 gcobb: We came up with the proposal then, though. Mar 24 21:26:11 Jaffa, Then make a proposal & submit it to the CWG Mar 24 21:26:13 Jaffa: I hope he will listen to the community this time as well Mar 24 21:26:16 yes gcobb but we have been there, done that-- let's move baseed on what we know works Mar 24 21:26:35 dneary: Indeed. But until day one, I guess it's a bit unclear still who the "community" is. Mar 24 21:26:42 Jaffa, Rather than grumble, we can insist that things work as we want - at least that way if proposals are rejected we can ask why Mar 24 21:26:51 Jaffa, Certainly Mar 24 21:26:52 well gcobb I am not encouraged based on the Linux Foundation travel proposal responses... Mar 24 21:26:56 dneary: i.e. we're suggesting representation for something which is about a dozen people across two mailing lists and an IRC channel. Mar 24 21:26:58 Texrat: so we discuss on the -community list and make a proposal, based on what has worked well and what has not worked well Mar 24 21:27:09 ok Mar 24 21:27:25 * arjan is pretty sure the CWG wants such proposals to adopt Mar 24 21:27:30 * DocScrutinizer *HATES* meetings without proper smokers' breaks Mar 24 21:27:37 meeting? Mar 24 21:27:37 haha Mar 24 21:27:45 DocScrutinizer: take your N900 outside Mar 24 21:27:46 DocScrutinizer: n900, porch Mar 24 21:27:47 :P Mar 24 21:27:49 leaving soon Mar 24 21:28:07 DocScrutinizer: seriously, N900 solves all ills. :P Mar 24 21:28:19 lol Mar 24 21:28:29 * javispedro dislikes reading too times the word "community" Mar 24 21:28:29 Stskeeps: I can't enjoy smoking and same time follow a meeting on N900 :-/ Mar 24 21:28:43 Portrait mode ! Drink ! Mar 24 21:28:43 DocScrutinizer: n810 was better at that yes Mar 24 21:28:44 I'm just hoping my battery holds out... didn't expect the meeting to be several hours Mar 24 21:29:00 Texrat, LF travel fund had a major budget cut this year Mar 24 21:29:17 dneary, from Nokia? Mar 24 21:29:20 Jaffa, More than a couple of dozen... Mar 24 21:29:30 Texrat, No, from the LF Mar 24 21:29:35 Stskeeps: and smae time I'm anxious about if they come back to locked devices with meego, or if that might be a policy in licence to forbid such shit Mar 24 21:29:41 Reduced overall budget = reduced travel budget Mar 24 21:29:43 dneary sorry my comment was aimed at Jaffa and gcobb based on email discussion Mar 24 21:29:49 has architecture been discussed yet ? Mar 24 21:29:57 long ago Mar 24 21:30:01 k Mar 24 21:30:02 slaine: no, more info to come. Mar 24 21:30:07 specific to asking Nokia to sponsor prior and next council to LFC Mar 24 21:30:08 slaine: Basically was "not ready yet, punt" Mar 24 21:30:13 slaine: not much besides "we'll publish a draft soon, will discuss more next meeting" Mar 24 21:30:22 slaine: detailed arch will liekly be published on "Day 1" Mar 24 21:30:37 thanks guys Mar 24 21:30:49 of all days to get delayed, grrrr Mar 24 21:30:55 I'm not sure what the "We'll handle I8n in the core" means... Mar 24 21:31:01 day 1 being next week it's not that bad ;) Mar 24 21:31:13 wednesday Mar 24 21:31:18 I think we'd all like to see a chart like this for Meego: http://wiki.maemo.org/Documentation/Maemo_5_Developer_Guide/Architecture/Top_Level_Architecture Mar 24 21:31:19 if Meego is a community project then surely having a WG to do it makes sense Mar 24 21:31:24 I mean't me trying to catchup Mar 24 21:31:31 colonelqubit: the proposal I've seen looks a lot like that Mar 24 21:31:38 arjan: good, good Mar 24 21:31:48 same level of detail at least Mar 24 21:31:50 lbt it means that l10n is very important Mar 24 21:31:52 proposal for next meeting: have a pre-meeting to stage, filter and pre-select questions Mar 24 21:31:54 not quite the same presentation in graphics Mar 24 21:31:57 but you'll live ;) Mar 24 21:32:13 tekojo: agreed - but there should be a community i/f Mar 24 21:32:30 suggestion: add a proposal channel to next meeting /me ducks and runs Mar 24 21:32:31 Texrat: yeah, I think that would be preferable Mar 24 21:32:32 * Jaffa beds. Mar 24 21:32:36 Will catch up on the log later. Mar 24 21:32:48 lbt having met margie I think the community will be heavily in there Mar 24 21:32:51 n8 Jaffa Mar 24 21:33:26 and no closed components in the arch picture Mar 24 21:33:33 Mar 24 21:33:33 Mar 24 21:33:34 Mar 24 21:33:34 Mar 24 21:33:55 like we have in maemo (bme, etc) Mar 24 21:34:10 time to go home, later all Mar 24 21:34:17 arch picture being the shared system amongst devices, right? Mar 24 21:34:32 because i think it'll be a cold day in hell if BME was published open source :P Mar 24 21:34:58 night Texrat Mar 24 21:35:16 no red componets like in the link here pointing to maemo.org wiki Mar 24 21:35:19 Stskeeps: there's a common architecture upto middleware and such (as is on the website now), and then a per device type layer Mar 24 21:35:33 arjan: yes, i know Mar 24 21:36:22 same source for x86/arm builds? Mar 24 21:36:25 same package layout? Mar 24 21:36:41 tmzt_: of course Mar 24 21:36:57 \o/ Mar 24 21:37:02 anything else leads only to insanity, and will confuse app writers as well Mar 24 21:37:03 tmzt_: initially the kernel would not be the same Mar 24 21:37:13 same kernel source hopefully Mar 24 21:37:16 just different configuration Mar 24 21:37:20 goal is upstream? Mar 24 21:37:25 Emphasis on general community participation, not meetings. . . . Mar 24 21:37:29 * thiago_home thinks CONFIG_MTRR on ARM is not very useful Mar 24 21:37:37 QUESTION: you know about #meego right? Mar 24 21:37:40 Mar 24 21:38:02 BME is battery management right? If they open sourced it couldn't that potentially put them at risk of litagation? Thats what i read somewhere anyway. Mar 24 21:38:03 tmzt_: as close to upstream as we can get away with. this process is also documented on the website Mar 24 21:38:06 thiago_home: ARCH=arm selects that out Mar 24 21:38:10 it's not an issue Mar 24 21:38:16 Termana_n810: yeah, lots of discussion on that topic Mar 24 21:38:17 Termana_n810: that's the argument, anyway. Mar 24 21:38:26 can dme get a hal? Mar 24 21:38:28 Termana_n810: not sure whether or not it would actually pan out that way. Mar 24 21:38:34 it's not the best solution but if it's the only one Mar 24 21:38:35 arjan: 2.6.34 will have only limited support for the n900 Mar 24 21:38:43 look at how atheros worked for a long time Mar 24 21:38:44 I mean, you can blow up your device with or without Nokia's code. Mar 24 21:38:54 janneg: hopefully a patch can fix that ;-) Mar 24 21:38:57 quim is seeing his nice minutes blow up... Mar 24 21:39:00 of course, someone pointed out that if they *don't* open source the driver, people are going to blow some combination of devices, batteries, and people up while they attempt to reverse-engineer the guts Mar 24 21:39:03 Termana_n810: other half is that Nokia likes to differentiate on power management Mar 24 21:39:06 GeneralAntilles: i'd say BME info -helps-.. Mar 24 21:39:06 :P Mar 24 21:39:21 Stskeeps: lawyers, though. Mar 24 21:39:44 janneg: a patch does not mean it cannot be the same source + different config Mar 24 21:39:53 most of the patch will be arch/arm stuff anyway... that gets config'd out Mar 24 21:40:03 it's been a bit funny driving past atheros and broadcom offices. I didn't know should I ask the car to be stopped so I could throw a tantrum at the main entrance, throw rocks at the windows or just drive by with a disgusted glance at the buildings Mar 24 21:40:16 GeneralAntilles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCWdnjLqVWw is always fu Mar 24 21:40:17 n Mar 24 21:40:19 arjan: hopefully more than a single patch. it's impossible to do something with nokia's current patch against 2.6.28 Mar 24 21:40:31 Myrtti: nuke Mar 24 21:40:31 janneg: I'd hope so yes Mar 24 21:40:31 Stskeeps: yeah. . . . Mar 24 21:40:53 colonelqubit, but the driver for the battery IS open source isn't it. Just not the userspace component (BME) Mar 24 21:40:56 janneg: getting patches as you would submit them to kernel.org is key Mar 24 21:41:01 isn't it?* Mar 24 21:41:04 janneg: (that way we CAN actually submit them upstream ;-) Mar 24 21:41:29 guys, we need to find out where most of the users are from, and the set the time of the meeting based on that Mar 24 21:41:51 CosmoHill: West Coast USA to UTC+2 Mar 24 21:41:53 democracy based time zome? Mar 24 21:41:55 Termana_n810: I really don't know enough about the issue to speak in any detail. I could dig up the notes somewhere... Mar 24 21:41:59 GeneralAntilles: Stskeeps I'm still not convinced there's a self-destruction trigger red button in BME Mar 24 21:42:04 so if MeeGo is very successful in China, we'll have Chinese timezone meetings? Mar 24 21:42:06 1400 to 2000 is a reasonable range Mar 24 21:42:25 There is quite a many things in the N900 kernel which are not in the ML kernel now. N900 will boot and somehow work but lot of things will not work... Mar 24 21:42:50 at least I saw the LCD driver being submitted, that was a nice step Mar 24 21:42:53 arjan: nokia is upstreaming, but not all at once. good for kernel maintainer sanity, bad if you try to use a different kernel with a 300k lines added patch against 2.6.28 with many backports Mar 24 21:43:12 Stskeeps: yes, that is already part of the meego work... Mar 24 21:43:16 spoussa: I understand.. and porting to a more current kernel is a good way to split things up and figure out which pieces are junk etc Mar 24 21:43:20 spoussa: been there done that ;) Mar 24 21:43:25 why is dsme kernel specific then? Mar 24 21:43:35 tmzt_: dsme isn't kernel specific, i run it on x86 Mar 24 21:43:52 so what's the issue? Mar 24 21:44:02 janneg: that's why I said "upstream-able patches" not "upstream-already patches" :) Mar 24 21:44:07 why can't any upstream kernel be used on various nokia tablets? Mar 24 21:44:21 yawn Mar 24 21:44:22 tmzt_: cos not all the patches are there to supprt it properly Mar 24 21:44:29 *sigh* logical fallacies ftw Mar 24 21:44:32 these things should be better coordinated Mar 24 21:44:34 CosmoHill: East Coast <-- me Mar 24 21:45:04 I'll be in BST too Mar 24 21:45:06 soon* Mar 24 21:45:23 I'm ready for bed me Mar 24 21:45:30 * CosmoHill pets slaine Mar 24 21:45:34 Termana_n810: http://wiki.maemo.org/Free_Maemo#BME Mar 24 21:46:05 aww... "they do" :) Mar 24 21:46:22 lbt so cute Mar 24 21:46:40 quim is on the pull lol Mar 24 21:47:00 lbt: held over until next week Mar 24 21:47:02 lbt: obviously the other wg's won't formally exist for at least another week :) Mar 24 21:47:16 missed that :) Mar 24 21:47:26 colonelqubit, right and BME is only userspace Mar 24 21:47:34 *sigh* Mar 24 21:49:06 lbt, tekojo huh? Mar 24 21:49:40 Termana_n810: But you can still do quite enough damage to your battery, device, and arm (no, not ARM) from userspace Mar 24 21:49:58 DocScrutinizer: Mr. Question-with-an-obvious-answer. :P Mar 24 21:50:14 CosmoHill the YES part in the meeting Mar 24 21:50:15