**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 31 02:59:56 2010 Mar 31 05:03:26 * Stskeeps yawns Mar 31 05:03:48 day one, let us see how this goes :) Mar 31 09:03:10 hiho Mar 31 09:03:20 hepho Mar 31 09:03:43 any news on the meego repos? Mar 31 09:03:55 not end of month yet Mar 31 09:03:55 :P Mar 31 09:04:22 hehe Mar 31 09:04:57 then lets keep on waiting wanna see what my n900 can do with it Mar 31 09:05:18 developer or user? Mar 31 09:05:18 :P Mar 31 09:05:25 user Mar 31 09:05:34 wouldn't put my hopes up Mar 31 09:05:45 ok Mar 31 09:05:48 release today is developers Mar 31 09:05:58 thx for the info Mar 31 09:06:17 * ShadowJK would be surprised if it displays anything on the screen Mar 31 09:07:44 the n900 screams for a new OS Mar 31 09:08:23 not really, i'm pretty happy with maemo5 :P Mar 31 09:08:33 me too Mar 31 09:08:35 * ShadowJK too Mar 31 09:08:39 * w00t_ too Mar 31 09:08:52 okok i got it Mar 31 09:08:57 :) Mar 31 09:09:18 ShadowJK: how about booting into emacs? Mar 31 09:09:58 still need working X and working keyboard, and especially working onscreen for esc/alt :P Mar 31 09:12:12 how do you like the skype feature? i have massive laggs now i am trying fring Mar 31 09:12:25 i mean when calling Mar 31 09:12:37 I don't use it Mar 31 09:13:06 I'd imagine latency mostly depends on the latency of the internet connection used Mar 31 09:14:15 i try it here with wlan and i only got like 125kbit upload Mar 31 09:14:52 wonder if it will ever work with 3 g Mar 31 09:20:03 I get about 170ms latency on hspa, but if connection is idle for a few seconds, the next packet has a 3000ms latency with my operator Mar 31 09:22:47 Will the kickstart files be at repo.meego.com (says so in wiki.meego.com) ? Mar 31 09:23:58 think they were written long ago, so don't count on it Mar 31 09:26:07 Ok, would be good if the Image_Creation_For_Beginners was up to date as soon as everything is released. Mar 31 09:26:57 obviously Mar 31 09:29:18 A friend of mine has to install an acer aspire one (N450) today, so I was hoping to be able to test it (before giving him a stable install).. Mar 31 09:44:06 where is the dual boot today release? :) Mar 31 09:44:31 engadget probably knows more Mar 31 09:46:04 So where is the promised day 1? =) Mar 31 09:46:54 ? Mar 31 09:47:14 RST38h, today Mar 31 09:48:16 RST38h: all we will get will probably be on http://gitorious.org/meego Mar 31 09:49:07 hum http://meego.gitorious.com/ Mar 31 09:49:50 RST38h, patience - there are another 26 hours left in the day yet Mar 31 09:51:15 dneary_: it depends about the time zone :P Mar 31 09:51:20 Even 28! Mar 31 09:51:31 http://www.worldtimezone.com/utc/utc+1400.html Mar 31 09:51:40 * drizztbsd is at GMT+2 / CEST :) Mar 31 09:52:31 No - sorry, thet's the easternmost timezone Mar 31 09:52:36 http://www.worldtimezone.com/utc/utc-1200.html is westernmost Mar 31 09:52:42 So only 26 hours Mar 31 09:53:23 the LHC didn't cause the expected end of the world, so now it has to be published :P Mar 31 09:54:13 Stskeeps: LHC is not at the maximum power yes Mar 31 09:54:14 :) Mar 31 09:54:18 yet* Mar 31 09:54:33 it would have been easier to say that the release would be on April 1 Mar 31 09:54:55 april fish :) Mar 31 09:57:43 Stskeeps, Did they create a mini black hole all the same? Mar 31 09:58:31 . Mar 31 09:58:41 hi Mar 31 09:59:10 dneary_: maybe we're in a time loop. day one repeating over and over. Mar 31 09:59:10 :P Mar 31 09:59:34 Stskeeps, Does that mean I get to sleep with Andie McDowell later? Mar 31 09:59:39 Groundhog day? Mar 31 10:00:03 who Mar 31 10:00:08 hh Mar 31 10:01:18 BTW what is meego spectacle? Mar 31 10:01:29 spectacle is a tool to make rpms easier, quite nice Mar 31 10:03:41 Stskeeps: Ah, there is a Spectrum emulator with the same name AFAIK Mar 31 10:03:58 and it's also the word for a theatre play in poland Mar 31 10:03:59 :P Mar 31 10:04:20 Stskeeps: yea, but that goes without saying (same word in Russian) Mar 31 10:04:55 launched a proof-of-concept for MeeGo Planet and Social News: http://lists.meego.com/pipermail/meego-community/2010-March/000591.html Mar 31 10:11:20 what Mar 31 10:11:42 whatwhat :P Mar 31 10:16:25 bergie: looks great to me Mar 31 10:16:47 Tm_T: yep, I hope the rest of the MeeGo community likes that Mar 31 10:17:03 would be great to have the system in place soon, as "Day One" is almost here Mar 31 10:23:02 Stskeeps: so where's the code :) Mar 31 10:25:17 23:59 gmt-14.. Mar 31 10:25:17 :P Mar 31 10:25:36 heheh Mar 31 10:25:37 plenty of time left ;) Mar 31 10:44:42 there's no -14 Mar 31 10:44:59 -12 yes, +13, +13:30 and +13:45 too Mar 31 10:45:14 well, +13:45 then Mar 31 10:46:47 * lcuk keeps hearing the 24 beep beep noises whenever he looks in this chan Mar 31 10:47:57 lcuk, waiting for meego release ? :D Mar 31 10:48:44 * lcuk sees picture in picture between the actors Mar 31 10:48:45 where is the download button? :) Mar 31 10:49:02 tho i still dont know which one is chloe o'brian Mar 31 10:50:31 I am looking at the download page (http://meego.com/downloads), it says check back there to get the full source code. Mar 31 10:50:38 No source code yet...... Mar 31 10:51:08 I keep refreshing this Mar 31 10:51:09 i am refreshing it (in 20 s intervals) too.. :) Mar 31 10:51:09 http://repo.meego.com/ Mar 31 10:51:18 thnx Mar 31 10:51:20 what a bunch of nerds ;) Mar 31 10:52:02 just to mention, it's not a release today. just source code would be opened Mar 31 10:52:03 and proud of it Mar 31 10:52:26 repo.meego.com could win a prize for minimalist web design :-) Mar 31 10:52:53 mobile enhanced user experience Mar 31 10:53:51 kad, with code we can builds our own images Mar 31 10:54:15 kad: source code or built code? Mar 31 10:54:44 meego.gitorious.org has a lot more links (still pretty thin on code). Mar 31 10:55:00 Stskeeps: src.rpm+i586/arm.rpms I think Mar 31 10:55:08 fair enough, that's enough Mar 31 10:55:24 slaine: yeah, just don't expect too much :) Mar 31 10:55:38 maclaver, thanks for the tip. Seems pretty good starting point. Mar 31 10:55:41 I expect code Mar 31 10:55:44 I can handle the rest Mar 31 10:56:12 Anss|, you're welcome. Mar 31 11:20:59 Is it there yet ? Mar 31 11:21:07 * slaine sniggers Mar 31 11:22:09 Not on gitorious, repo, or /downloads yet. Mar 31 11:23:12 'are we there yet' Mar 31 11:23:13 :P Mar 31 11:23:53 What about now Mar 31 11:23:56 They said 31 March, which gives them ~9 hours in the Finnish timezone, but ~20 hours if we go to the furthest time zone ;-) Mar 31 11:23:57 * CosmoHill goes looking for motivation Mar 31 11:24:12 Thankfully I've tonnes to do Mar 31 11:24:19 so do I Mar 31 11:24:23 but I require motivation Mar 31 11:24:56 shall I tickle your tummy ? Mar 31 11:29:12 it's only 04:29 am in the US West Coast Mar 31 11:29:30 lunchtime here Mar 31 11:29:53 what news! the world isn't on the one timezone Mar 31 11:29:54 :-D Mar 31 11:30:21 i thought meego was using UTC Mar 31 11:31:51 UGT works everywhere :) Mar 31 11:32:19 http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Mar 31 11:33:00 awesome Mar 31 11:47:31 anyone with knowledge about wiki.meego.com around? Mar 31 11:50:26 did any of you experience the issue where they couldn't edit the wiki? Mar 31 11:50:33 Yes. Mar 31 11:50:41 what was the issue? Mar 31 11:50:46 Go to the account settings in the wiki and set your email. Mar 31 11:50:53 We've been locked out. It's a conspiracy Mar 31 11:50:59 lol Mar 31 11:51:18 Account sync is a bit broken-ish. Mar 31 11:51:22 I love how SSO creates as many issues as it solves Mar 31 11:52:24 w00t_: It was probably a hack job to get something in place quickly. Now this can be developed properly. Mar 31 11:53:08 that's a bit long for a hack to have existed, but I suppose improvement is always a possibility, maybe, one day Mar 31 11:53:52 w00t_: Works nicely for us at maemo.org at least. Mar 31 11:56:00 what works nicely? certainly not SSO Mar 31 11:56:18 w00t_: main site and wiki is not a problem. Mar 31 11:56:21 * w00t_ had to help a very confused significant other get all her *.maemo.org accounts sorted out yesterday Mar 31 12:18:51 ^^ Mar 31 12:24:33 hey I've just thought Mar 31 12:24:40 I'm legally old enough to drink in the states :D Mar 31 12:29:10 does meego netbook flavour feel touch? Mar 31 12:34:03 kebax, it will even shed real tears if you touch it inappropriately Mar 31 12:35:36 I was just wondering how it will work in, say, T91 Mar 31 12:36:17 kebax: I don't think netbook flavor will have touch support by default Mar 31 12:36:29 okay Mar 31 12:36:38 I know the Moblin guys where working on a MID version that would, keyboard support etc. Mar 31 12:36:39 chrome seems to do that Mar 31 12:37:12 That was due to come out in Moblin 2.2, so there may be a MeeGo 1.0 MID release sometime soon that does Mar 31 12:37:32 lbt: you about? Mar 31 12:37:47 no Mar 31 12:37:50 lbt: http://forums.kustompcs.co.uk/showpost.php?p=470558&postcount=8 Mar 31 12:38:25 ummm, netbook with touchscreen... is that netbook at all? Mar 31 12:38:35 you mean tablets? Mar 31 12:38:35 why not? Mar 31 12:38:51 like eeepc t91 Mar 31 12:39:37 Mar 31 13:20:14 hello Mar 31 13:20:17 wello Mar 31 13:20:29 how are you guys ? Mar 31 13:20:58 do you have some news about MeeGo's release time ? Mar 31 13:21:13 today, 23:59 GMT-13.45 latest Mar 31 13:21:15 :P Mar 31 13:21:17 it have been announed for today normally... Mar 31 13:21:33 but Mar 31 13:21:47 12:44 < thiago> -12 yes, +13, +13:30 and +13:45 too Mar 31 13:21:52 not -13:45 Mar 31 13:21:56 lol Mar 31 13:21:59 * Stskeeps fails Mar 31 13:22:06 Stskeeps: so much fail. Mar 31 13:22:43 sure for today ? Mar 31 13:24:36 TheBootroo: nothing that would make people believe otherwise, so. Mar 31 13:25:42 don't mind the headless chicken Mar 31 13:37:16 Is there API for framebuffer accessing ...anyone?? Mar 31 13:37:36 will gmail exchange be supported in meego ? Mar 31 13:39:22 do we have any sort of pre-release changelog for meego TP ? Mar 31 13:40:26 We know nothing yet Mar 31 13:40:32 nor I Mar 31 13:41:01 it'll probably be a release and then everyone involved goes on vacation ;) Mar 31 13:41:05 but do we know who is working actively (i hope) on the project ? Mar 31 13:41:14 only some people are publically known Mar 31 13:42:00 but meego developpement process is open it isn't ? Mar 31 13:42:09 it -will- be, yes Mar 31 13:42:14 ok Mar 31 13:42:26 TheBootroo: It's opening up to the publin today, at some point Mar 31 13:42:38 so i will continue to wait today for release Mar 31 13:42:38 hopefully before 20:00 UTC Mar 31 13:42:49 it would be good :) Mar 31 13:42:54 ok Mar 31 13:42:54 so Mar 31 13:42:57 bb Mar 31 13:43:08 TheBootroo: Theres no release of Meego 1.0 today, that's May. Today the source/repo's for the project are open Mar 31 13:43:22 but there's probably going to be OS images that developers can use to test Mar 31 13:43:28 see you later on this channel after the 'release' Mar 31 13:43:41 i'm a dev :-) Mar 31 13:43:43 ;-) Mar 31 13:44:01 b++; Mar 31 13:45:53 hey..Is there any API for accessing framebuffer.... Mar 31 13:46:37 karkare: there's nothing for anything as of yet Mar 31 13:46:46 karkare: look at what linux has Mar 31 13:46:47 :P Mar 31 13:46:51 ok Mar 31 13:46:57 ok Mar 31 13:47:23 thanks Mar 31 13:47:31 oh they havent released any meego source yet? Mar 31 13:48:15 but I found this API...EZFB...but my question is that whether we can use API or what linux have we have to use it...? Mar 31 13:48:30 why you can't access frame buffer as in normal linux distro like fedora? Mar 31 13:49:24 ok..but I am new to this concept to is there any tutorial..i found non on the internet Mar 31 13:49:45 I'm new too :) Mar 31 13:49:53 ok Mar 31 13:50:23 where to read about it... Mar 31 13:51:10 slaine, will Meego SDK be released today? Without it, it's not very useful for developers. Mar 31 13:51:43 define sdk Mar 31 13:52:09 define developers :) Mar 31 13:52:17 developer can use it to develope Meego application. Something like Moblin SDK, Maemo SDK, etc Mar 31 13:52:33 sdk = libc + glib + xxxlib + gcc + vim/emacs + gdb Mar 31 13:52:42 X-Fade: single people who fear sunlight and fresh air :p Mar 31 13:52:50 emacs might be putting the stakes too high Mar 31 13:53:04 CosmoHill: Hehe Mar 31 13:53:06 you can run emacs on meego, if you want Mar 31 13:53:14 I'm glad I don't park at uni Mar 31 13:53:40 ZhuYanhai: if you want, yes :P Mar 31 13:53:40 they're putting prices up for parking so it would cost an extra £5 a week to mark Mar 31 13:53:43 park* Mar 31 13:54:47 meego is pure native linux. so basically you can use anything you like to develop applications. Mar 31 13:54:47 hjsm: nothings been said. Today is Day 1 of the project, so I very much doubt the SDK pack will be available today Mar 31 13:55:02 It took a long time for the Moblin SDK to come out after Moblin2 was released Mar 31 13:55:05 There is supposed to be a code dump. Mar 31 13:55:15 And that's fine for most of us Mar 31 13:55:18 A kernel tarball would already be just that ;) Mar 31 13:55:54 Then, how do you expect developer to play with it? Using old Moblin/Maemo stuff? Mar 31 13:56:12 hjsm: It is not a release. Mar 31 13:56:24 hjsm: Wait for the first release for that. Mar 31 13:57:04 'sdk' is a wide term Mar 31 13:57:08 if you mean a chroot, maybe Mar 31 13:57:31 and qt-creator, maybe Mar 31 13:57:34 hjsm: So, are you interested in... developing end-user apps? system hacking? ...? Mar 31 13:57:35 I don't like the chroot. And not sure how it works for ARM compiling. Mar 31 13:57:50 come on merging two separate codebases can't be an easy task Mar 31 13:57:59 hjsm: In case of the first of those, just grab the Qt SDK and start coding :) Mar 31 13:58:10 I believe all developers are interesting to change the existing package, adding new package, etc Mar 31 13:58:18 hjsm: sign up or meego-sdk :) Mar 31 13:58:21 for Mar 31 13:58:49 I already signed up Meego-sdk. :) Mar 31 14:00:01 but yes, providing a good developer experience will be key Mar 31 14:00:02 another question, Moblin release including gcc/binutils inside the image. Will Meego image contain them too? So we can boot Meego image and develop. Mar 31 14:00:30 boot Meego image or chroot to Meego image for development Mar 31 14:00:49 hjsm: come back tomorrow, we'll know more then Mar 31 14:00:59 all we're able to do is guess Mar 31 14:01:04 gcc/binutils won't be installed by default Mar 31 14:01:07 Sure, thanks. Mar 31 14:01:19 ZhuYanhai: there might be developer images though Mar 31 14:01:27 which is what hjsm is asking Mar 31 14:01:31 There was for Moblin Mar 31 14:02:03 hjsm: even if there's not, it'll be just a case of doing, yum groupinstall "Development Tools" Mar 31 14:02:04 developer image = normal image + yum groupinstall "development tools", for moblin at least Mar 31 14:02:13 nod Mar 31 14:02:25 and "Moblin Desktop Devel" Mar 31 14:02:45 there's few packages in that desktop devel IFIRC Mar 31 14:03:29 Will QtCreator be included from yum groupinstall "development tools" Mar 31 14:03:42 we don't know Mar 31 14:03:46 not sure. Mar 31 14:03:49 like I said, we're just guessing Mar 31 14:04:13 you don't seem to have grasped the "there's no information available yet" part :) Mar 31 14:04:14 Sorry, for my un-patient. I am realy eager to get these "SDK" things. Thanks again guys. Mar 31 14:04:21 hjsm: check your messages Mar 31 14:04:22 hmm, why are some cables so hard to find :( Mar 31 14:08:52 hello guys Mar 31 14:09:12 Can anybody tell me the exact date when Meego was announced? Mar 31 14:09:44 lauri: http://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2010/welcome-meego Mar 31 14:09:47 1st march IIRC Mar 31 14:09:53 15th February Mar 31 14:10:08 it was still a monday Mar 31 14:10:15 15th February Mar 31 14:10:23 You didn't say anything about a Monday CosmoHill Mar 31 14:10:28 shh Mar 31 14:10:42 so 15th? Mar 31 14:10:48 yes Mar 31 14:10:50 see the link Mar 31 14:11:02 my bad Mar 31 14:34:17 To check the MeeGo code was the first thing after I woke up but got an incomplete gitorious repo only. Can we have time to look at the code before meeting today? Mar 31 14:34:54 patienc Mar 31 14:34:55 e Mar 31 14:34:55 :P Mar 31 14:35:52 Is meeGo code available on site?? Mar 31 14:36:08 sometime today i think Mar 31 14:36:30 ok Mar 31 14:37:35 what time is the meeting today ? 20h UTC again ? Mar 31 14:37:52 yep Mar 31 14:39:58 oh 23h here. a bit late :( Mar 31 14:40:05 Hmm Mar 31 14:40:14 2240 Mar 31 14:40:16 I'm on IST now, so that probably means 21:00 IST Mar 31 14:40:43 as UTC doesn't follow the summer hour change Mar 31 14:41:07 It is a point on the agenda :) Mar 31 14:41:35 :) Mar 31 14:41:38 current utc time is 2:40pm Mar 31 14:41:48 * CosmoHill is BST Mar 31 14:41:56 yup, will defo be 21:00 for us CosmoHill then Mar 31 14:42:49 you're british? Mar 31 14:43:03 Irish Mar 31 14:43:06 close enough Mar 31 14:43:13 * slaine gets his guns Mar 31 14:43:18 Ah, gave them up Mar 31 14:43:36 damn amnesties Mar 31 14:46:52 In all my previous projects wherever I was working, releasing something on a certain day always means release on last minute of that day in PST if not delayed :-) Mar 31 14:49:24 typical Mar 31 14:49:56 if we have a deadline at XX hours, why not work until then to make everything as smooth as possible.. even that everything was ready earlier :) Mar 31 14:53:06 * CosmoHill gives Tumi_ a poke Mar 31 15:09:43 lots to be found now on repo.meego.com Mar 31 15:12:02 cheers bfree :D Mar 31 15:12:59 there goes the bandwidth.. Mar 31 15:13:08 banshee-1-backend-platform-meego-1.5.99-1.3.i586.rpm huhu Mar 31 15:13:17 what are you dling, Stskeeps? Mar 31 15:13:19 the n900 image? Mar 31 15:13:39 nvm that question Mar 31 15:13:58 morning DawnFoster Mar 31 15:14:17 afternoon stskeeps Mar 31 15:14:43 hello DawnFoster Mar 31 15:14:59 hi th0br0 Mar 31 15:15:13 quiet day - not much going on :) Mar 31 15:15:31 true :) Mar 31 15:15:32 hello there, Mar 31 15:15:39 DawnFoster: a couple of minutes ago people found the repos.. Mar 31 15:15:39 :P Mar 31 15:16:25 and are now probably trying to browse around before they grow old and die Mar 31 15:16:38 yeah, things are starting to trickle out, and it's not even midnight yet :) Mar 31 15:16:39 there is nothing interesting on them anyway imho Mar 31 15:17:07 http://bugzilla.meego.com/ ;) but yeah Mar 31 15:17:11 morning Mar 31 15:18:00 there even are a couple of bugs o.O Mar 31 15:18:14 [Dell 5540] huhu Mar 31 15:18:31 Calpella Notebook ;) Mar 31 15:19:34 MeeGo 1.0 preview << now where is that preview... Mar 31 15:19:49 we have to give you guys *something* to write patches for :) Mar 31 15:20:07 :) too bad that download.meego.com points to repo.meego.com (or the other way round) Mar 31 15:20:59 and garage.mg.c only points to the main page either Mar 31 15:22:24 http://wiki.meego.com/Bugzilla/how-report-bugs ;) Mar 31 15:22:53 we're still updating the web site, so not everything is done there. Mar 31 15:22:56 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Creating_ARM_image_using_MIC2 go go go! Mar 31 15:23:32 DawnFoster: does that mean that we'll be able to run meego in qemU? Mar 31 15:23:51 apparently. Mar 31 15:23:56 wait, what? :P Mar 31 15:24:15 Or just what is mic2? Mar 31 15:24:21 the official download page is actually http://meego.com/downloads Mar 31 15:24:27 which hasn't been updated yet Mar 31 15:24:49 th0br0: mic2 is the image creator Mar 31 15:24:50 ah ok Mar 31 15:26:14 well, i'll wait for tonite. there isn't much interesting up on the wiki yet Mar 31 15:26:56 s/tonite/tonight/ Mar 31 15:26:57 th0br0 meant: well, i'll wait for tonight. there isn't much interesting up on the wiki yet Mar 31 15:29:12 oh what does CDK stand for? (in context: "Hardware tested on: CDK and Aava") Mar 31 15:31:55 kernel-shcdk seems to be optimized for Moorestown platform for CDK. Mar 31 15:32:17 it's funny to see however how pretty much all intel employees seem to be chinese (or indian) Mar 31 15:34:34 th0b0r: we're (intel) a pretty diverse bunch of people. Lots of us from US, Europe, etc. on the team too :) Mar 31 15:35:31 :) Yeah, I noticed that further down the page, the amount of english / us names was increasing Mar 31 15:37:14 looking at: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_native_install_on_N900 there might be some images available later. at least I am hoping for those :) Mar 31 15:38:07 well, it's just that the weekly image page on repo.meego.com isn't there yet... Mar 31 15:38:19 however, there exists some 0319 and some 0316-002 (likely also a 0316-001) image ... Mar 31 16:00:11 http://mashable.com/2010/02/24/open-source-threatens-capitalism/ o.O Mar 31 16:00:40 matrix + green terminal = productivity++ Mar 31 16:01:04 the first non-free Nokia image is up on tablets-dev.nokia.com meego-codedrop-arm-n900-closed-201003311635.ubiimg (74,997,760 bytes) Mar 31 16:01:30 thopiekar: rofl, that's an iMac G3 in the corner of the commy poster Mar 31 16:10:21 so here: http://tablets-dev.nokia.com/meego-codedrop.php Mar 31 16:11:06 that needs a kernel too Mar 31 16:12:17 hint: you can get your IMEI by typing *#06# in the phone app Mar 31 16:15:09 i would be nice if the download page would state that Mar 31 16:15:12 it Mar 31 16:15:26 this works on every GSM phone Mar 31 16:16:23 thiago_home: Yes, but as we all know, the n900 is not a phone... *sunglasses* ;) Mar 31 16:16:30 hmm, http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_native_install_on_N900 Mar 31 16:16:38 sorry Mar 31 16:16:47 ECHAN Mar 31 16:16:47 changes welcome Mar 31 16:18:18 ooo Mar 31 16:18:36 Mar 31 16:18:36 Error creating thumbnail: Mar 31 16:18:36 libgomp: Thread creation failed: Resource temporarily unavailable << someone should fix that Mar 31 16:18:52 what's that? :P Mar 31 16:19:01 http://wiki.meego.com/File:Bug-life-cycle.PNG Mar 31 16:19:09 bugzilla.meego.com Mar 31 16:19:09 :P Mar 31 16:19:26 good idea Mar 31 16:20:46 done. Mar 31 16:21:29 is that Mr Shaver or Mrs Haver? Mar 31 16:21:42 if you put your N900 in R&D mode, tell me if the keyboard blinks after the screen has turned off Mar 31 16:22:13 that's fairly normal Mar 31 16:22:17 it illustrates cpu usage Mar 31 16:22:22 http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/n900/repo/arm/os/armv5tel/kernel-n900-2.6.28-2.1.armv5tel.rpm should probably give the correct kernel zImage (vmlinuz-2.6.28-2.1-n900 1776088 bytes) for these first meego images ... I need a second N900 to play with Mar 31 16:22:32 Stskeeps: shouldn't be there nonetheless Mar 31 16:22:42 hmm? :P Mar 31 16:23:15 * thiago_home has only one N900 Mar 31 16:23:35 gah, my balloon almost flew out the window Mar 31 16:23:36 * DocScrutinizer wonders if the "you may cause damage to your battery" warnings aren't a bit exaggerated. I mean there's a quite smart bq24150 chip taking care about battery, which isn't supposed to do any harm to the cell, when just operated in power-on default mode Mar 31 16:24:11 DocScrutinizer: the problem is more that it can discharge your battery to a level where n900 refuses both to charge and startup Mar 31 16:24:14 :P Mar 31 16:24:55 Stskeeps: shouldn't happen. AIUI bq24150 is 'selfcontained bootable' Mar 31 16:25:00 can't the battery discharge like that on its own, by leaving the device off? Mar 31 16:26:15 means charging should start even on a completely drained cell, without any interaction of SoC needed Mar 31 16:26:22 DocScrutinizer: either way, it's there for good measure, jebba trashed his fs'es that way, so it's worth noting :P Mar 31 16:26:33 maybe only 100mA, but nevertheless Mar 31 16:27:03 btw, you can start the N900 without the battery Mar 31 16:27:15 with a jig Mar 31 16:27:16 are you installing meego? Mar 31 16:27:21 with a USB cable Mar 31 16:27:45 if you're worried about damaging it, don't put it in Mar 31 16:29:03 Stskeeps: crashing fs on a unadvertised hard powerdown is a common issue to (virtually) all OS, and not related to "doing harm to the device", at least fs corruption isn't ewxactly what I feel scared of when I read that warning Mar 31 16:29:57 just reflash it :-) Mar 31 16:30:06 eactly Mar 31 16:30:17 exactly even Mar 31 16:30:18 thiagoL and it actually runs on power from usb [charger]? Mar 31 16:31:03 ShadowJK: I think so Mar 31 16:31:03 DocScrutinizer: and the dual boot? Mar 31 16:31:44 if it can charge the battery from USB, that means the USB can supply more power than the device consumes Mar 31 16:31:55 otherwise, the battery would continue draining instead of charge :-P Mar 31 16:32:07 that would be silly Mar 31 16:32:16 actually thiago whilst actively using the device you can have negative equity Mar 31 16:32:25 from usb Mar 31 16:32:26 thiago_home, anecdotally it doesn't work, and the specs for the charging chip suggests it "does nothing" if battery is missing Mar 31 16:33:04 ok, I stand corrected then Mar 31 16:34:06 yep, and e.g. GPRS activity is creating surges that may exceed 2A just for modem. Battery is mandatory to buffer those Mar 31 16:34:50 drizztbsd: (dual boot) sorry I don't get your question Mar 31 16:35:02 best method to charge any device is to reduce the current draw, so turning off screens and radios and stop running heavy processing apps can more than double charging speed Mar 31 16:35:21 DocScrutinizer: is there any procedure to have the dual boot? (meego + moblin) Mar 31 16:36:11 ops maemo* Mar 31 16:36:22 thiago_home, from the "leaked" schematics of disputed accuracy, Gaia is indeed connected to vbus (usb), but I don't know if it can take 5V from there and supply power to the omap side.. vbat would still be dead, and a number of things take power straight from there, including entire cellmo half.. Mar 31 16:36:44 drizztbsd: sorry I'm a total noob on both meego and moblin, as well as for any bootloader related questions Mar 31 16:37:32 there's kexec instructions, go explore :) Mar 31 16:39:40 * Stskeeps yawns Mar 31 16:40:25 ShadowJK: (disputed accuracy) my recent enterprise revealed no apparent diffs between the schematics and my device. (VBUS of GAIA for powering PMU) interesting question Mar 31 16:41:34 what have I missed Stskeeps Mar 31 16:42:00 hi anyone interested in the messenger for meego then ping me Mar 31 16:42:08 slaine: wiki.meego.com steaming with info Mar 31 16:42:09 :P Mar 31 16:42:35 the maemo kernel won't kexec though (either load another kernel or be loaded by another kernel)? so if I understand right for dual boot either maemo pr1.2 needs to fix that or use the same kernel as meego? Mar 31 16:42:35 DocScrutinizer, since there's a sysfs node called vbus in one of the gaia subdirs, I'm guessing it's just a sensor thing though Mar 31 16:43:03 I just looked at the recent changes for the wiki and it scared me away - lots of changes Mar 31 16:43:31 ShadowJK: I agree Mar 31 16:43:36 bfree: you need to patch your maemo kernel, getting loaded is fine Mar 31 16:43:58 ShadowJK: are there any sysfs nodes regarding bq24150? Mar 31 16:44:33 s/regarding/related to Mar 31 16:45:31 * DocScrutinizer thinks getting loaded is absolutely fine, late in the night at your favoirite pub ;-) Mar 31 16:47:59 DocScrutinizer, none Mar 31 16:48:25 ShadowJK: :-( Mar 31 16:48:39 DocScrutinizer, however, noth bq24150 and 27200 are on i2c-2, and bme has opened /dev/i2c-2 twice Mar 31 16:49:00 So if I had to guess, bme is talking to both. Mar 31 16:49:19 hmm sure. I was more interested in switching bq24150 to hostmode Mar 31 16:50:06 i.e supplying 5.05V@200mA to VBUS Mar 31 16:51:06 btw, bq24150 mentions/warns that the chip can have difficulties detecting end of charge when charge current sense is before both battery and sysload (as on n900) if system load is significant Mar 31 16:51:16 it's incredible how maemo managed to eliminate all hooks to a working USB hostmode Mar 31 16:51:42 bme might be using bq27200, which sees total current in/out to terminate and (re)start charge from software Mar 31 16:51:53 ShadowJK: same as on OM freerunner Mar 31 16:51:56 * RST38h yawns and swallows a live hampster Mar 31 16:53:10 ShadowJK: bq24150 also mentions some timer to stop charging unconditionally AIUI (complete study of datasheet still pending) Mar 31 16:53:55 ShadowJK: see Mar 31 16:54:01 ~batteryfaq Mar 31 16:54:02 from memory, batteryfaq is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Battery_Questions_and_Answers Mar 31 16:54:24 for reasoning behind stopping CV-charging Mar 31 16:54:33 err Mar 31 16:54:35 1. Make sure your device is turned off and the battery is fully charged. Mar 31 16:54:35 2. Remove the battery from the device. Mar 31 16:54:45 contradictions, shall I edit the wiki? Mar 31 16:54:56 (the N900 doesn't boot without the battery afaik) Mar 31 16:54:58 MohammadAG: no Mar 31 16:55:01 as I understand it, if iwc lines are dead it charges if usb phy tells it to charge via otg pin Mar 31 16:55:07 i2c* Mar 31 16:55:16 MohammadAG: charge battery, remove battery, plug USB, run flasher, put battery back on Mar 31 16:55:19 meego code dump happened yet? Mar 31 16:55:27 if i2c is alive, it requires periodic prodding from host to not stop charging Mar 31 16:55:37 it's not really relevant if you 'charge'the cell to 4.20V until I(thres) is tripped, or you simply stop charging after a few hours. Mar 31 16:55:42 trumee: slowly happening Mar 31 16:56:06 Stskeeps: great. Mar 31 16:57:15 anyone flashed meego on n900 Mar 31 16:57:31 Closer stufy of datasheet is needed, it talks about Vreg (iirc).. I got the impression it only charges unattended to bare minimum energy requirements to energize the host Mar 31 16:57:45 exciting, there are now what looks to be only some of the git repos up now. (this is only in the last day or so right?) Mar 31 16:58:16 as in, they haven't been public for more than a day or so Mar 31 16:58:30 ShadowJK: (OTG) exactly. 1707 detects D+/- short (the USB specs compliant signal it's a charger) and enables bq24150 "fast charge" via CHRG_DET -> OTG Mar 31 16:58:58 how flasher meego Mar 31 16:59:21 by following the instructions Mar 31 17:00:10 is "apt-get source kernel" still the correct way to recompile the kernel for kexec? Mar 31 17:00:10 ? Mar 31 17:00:21 or should I use the rpm? Mar 31 17:00:45 ShadowJK: Stskeeps: anyway there's no apparent situation where you encounter charge deadlock due to drained battery Mar 31 17:02:17 ShadowJK: Stskeeps: bq24150 even enables the yellow charging notification LED(s) completely autonomously Mar 31 17:02:28 The stat pin is connected to make yellow on the Led, nut can be turned off by software, which bme probably does, since it pulses/glows instead of shining steadily if driven by bq24150 Mar 31 17:02:55 ShadowJK: exactly Mar 31 17:02:58 * ShadowJK is making so many typos on n900 today, ircing from work Mar 31 17:06:33 anyway, bq24150 will POR to sane values, starting charging of battery. So *without BME* (or any other sw) interfering there is no chance for neither running into flat-bat-don't-charge deadlock, nor will it overcharge the battery. The whole FUD about N900 kills battery without BME is eactly that - FUD Mar 31 17:07:28 omg the image link for meego as been posted on forums, i predict a rush of noobs at care centre in the morning Mar 31 17:08:46 is the zImage-arm-n900 patched for kexec? Mar 31 17:09:20 thiago_home, flashed my device, but again, the N900 won't go into flashing mode without the battery Mar 31 17:09:33 * DocScrutinizer starts to offer a "recover fro meego" support. Just 50 bucks / device ;-) Mar 31 17:09:53 lol Mar 31 17:10:15 drizztbsd: unfortunately it is not, as far as I know. Mar 31 17:10:21 DocScrutinizer: useless, n900 does not bricks Mar 31 17:10:27 brick* Mar 31 17:11:39 is the MeeGo build just a bash shell? Mar 31 17:12:08 MohammadAG_: yes Mar 31 17:12:58 everybody, please wait for the announcement at meego.com before flashing anything Mar 31 17:13:11 lol Mar 31 17:13:14 drizztbsd: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_kexec_install_on_N900 Mar 31 17:13:15 qgil: too late :-P Mar 31 17:13:19 yeah, don't go about flashing :) Mar 31 17:13:27 you might end up "naked" Mar 31 17:13:31 * auke giggles Mar 31 17:13:35 since when do hackers wait for instructions? Mar 31 17:13:53 so no GUI? also on closed release? Mar 31 17:14:01 drizztbsd: xterm is GUI Mar 31 17:14:05 thiago_home: is a logged sentence I can quote if anybody comes with mismatched expectations :) Mar 31 17:14:38 thiago_home: only xterm? xeyes or xclock? :P Mar 31 17:14:46 twm Mar 31 17:14:49 love it Mar 31 17:15:39 be glad the N900 has a keyboard Mar 31 17:15:55 * thiago_home wonders if the xkb map is correct Mar 31 17:16:51 rawr Mar 31 17:16:56 damn linked lists of doom!! Mar 31 17:16:59 would be interesting to have an xterm as UI in a touch-only device, without vkb Mar 31 17:17:41 would be good to have morse code entry as input method Mar 31 17:18:10 * microlith spies the meego image Mar 31 17:18:17 can it be loaded on an SD card and booted? Mar 31 17:19:04 mmm Mar 31 17:19:05 * losinggeneration thinks this room is going to be very crazy over the next few days Mar 31 17:19:43 give kids a toy... Mar 31 17:20:46 hehe Mar 31 17:21:23 thiago_home: at this point it's like saying, here's what you've been anxiously awaiting, but don't touch it. Don't play with it. Probably best if you just turn your back to it and not even look at it, but it's there :) Mar 31 17:21:32 is there a log of last weeks meeting Mar 31 17:21:45 so it's still Christmas evening Mar 31 17:21:56 basically Mar 31 17:21:57 s/evening/eve/ Mar 31 17:21:58 thiago_home meant: so it's still Christmas eve Mar 31 17:21:59 soon it will turn to Christmas morning Mar 31 17:22:16 I just had a double take watching TV Mar 31 17:22:21 lcuk: minutes from last TSG meeting http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/ Mar 31 17:22:35 watching Fifth Gear and the narrator said "I had a few tricks up my sleeve to make me go quicker" Mar 31 17:22:49 "me go" (quicker) Mar 31 17:23:00 nice, thiago Mar 31 17:23:13 that's what we want for branding... your brain fills in the reat Mar 31 17:23:19 s/reat/rest/ Mar 31 17:23:20 dirkhh_ meant: that's what we want for branding... your brain fills in the rest Mar 31 17:23:20 heh Mar 31 17:23:37 but I wondered for half a second why Fifth Gear was talking about MeeGo Mar 31 17:24:09 http://meego.com/community/blogs/imad/2010/day-1-here-opening-meego-development Mar 31 17:26:29 qgil: can we flash now? :-P Mar 31 17:26:31 qgil, So it's official. Can I go and shout in Twitter? :) Mar 31 17:26:39 also on home page: meego.com Mar 31 17:27:22 so the widget gallery valhalla_ mentioned is not in this release? Mar 31 17:28:35 FOSS meego, with closed Nokia BME - lol. Exactly what we were asking for, no? Mar 31 17:28:57 BME? Mar 31 17:29:03 DocScrutinizer: you can install without it Mar 31 17:29:49 lcuk, I'm guessing there's still time for that... "in the next few days, we will post the next steps leading to the first release of MeeGo in May." Mar 31 17:30:00 yes, you have an option: BME or not. Happy ? Mar 31 17:30:06 microlith: Battery Management Entity Mar 31 17:30:13 ahh Mar 31 17:30:14 lcuk: as for today MeeGo integrates from Kernel to Qt Mar 31 17:30:24 I'd prefer everything be open, but a step's a step Mar 31 17:30:31 * microlith doesn't buy the explodanbatteries argument Mar 31 17:30:46 * lcuk nods Mar 31 17:31:21 so, cool Mar 31 17:31:35 what does BME do? Mar 31 17:32:00 and to ask again, I'm assuming the N900 image uploaded is ubifs, can that image be placed on an SD card and booted? Mar 31 17:32:32 trumee: handles battery charging Mar 31 17:33:02 From the announcement, it's not clear what the N900 will boot into... Mar 31 17:33:18 the page with the images says clearly it boots to a terminal Mar 31 17:33:18 microlith: what's in the tar.gz? Can it boot from a filesystem directly on a partition (assuming it's just a filesystem tar)? Mar 31 17:33:26 hmm, still getting a 404 on the repo Mar 31 17:33:26 http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/test/trunk/ Mar 31 17:33:29 losinggeneration: haven't had a chance to look yet Mar 31 17:33:48 slaine: the domain doesn't resolve for me, but the gitorious link is quite active Mar 31 17:34:19 * thiago_home starts cloning stuff before people eat up the bandwidth Mar 31 17:34:20 Jaffa: as for today MeeGo integrates from Kernel to Qt, and you get an Xterm command line prompt - all the images show the same content Mar 31 17:34:21 microlith: (explodanbatteries) see backscroll. ShadowJK and me elaborathed on this Mar 31 17:34:22 repo: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo should work Mar 31 17:34:40 dirkhh_: you can't drill down though Mar 31 17:34:41 microlith: all nokia phones use proprietary charging technology? Mar 31 17:34:46 the logo isn't much use ;) Mar 31 17:34:51 microlith: That's what I was checking, since I'm not aware of there of anything for the N900 to anything other than a serial console or a GUI toolkit. Mar 31 17:35:00 you can also get the tar.gz version and create a dual boot system, to test it without erasing anything from the n900 Mar 31 17:35:03 Jaffa: in fact all the images are as close to full content as you can get, the differences are only in the lower level for specific hardware adaptation Mar 31 17:35:05 qgil: is that a Qt x terminal? Mar 31 17:35:06 anyone got n900 image booting yet? Mar 31 17:35:23 dirkhh_: Ah, weekly test is where everything is at present Mar 31 17:35:38 slaine: which logo? Mar 31 17:35:51 trumee: there's nothing proprietary in bq24150 USB battery charger chip Mar 31 17:36:09 DocScrutinizer: so if BME isn't charging or protecting the battery... what's it doing? Mar 31 17:36:33 I'd dare to state it works just fine Mar 31 17:36:47 qgil: what is the difference to the nokia image? Mar 31 17:37:01 Hmmm, Xorg 1.8 and Intel 2.11 drivers Mar 31 17:37:02 nice Mar 31 17:37:09 rsalveti: thanks for that info, I'm assuming you can load it on an ext2/ext3 formatted sdcard and boot it? Mar 31 17:37:15 nokia image has charging, bt and wlan firmware Mar 31 17:37:21 I guess Stskeeps knows better than me Mar 31 17:37:26 microlith: probably, like we have with mer Mar 31 17:37:33 Stskeeps: thanx Mar 31 17:37:41 cool, I'll probably grab a 4GB card later today Mar 31 17:37:59 (ie, the open image plus closed bits to make it usable on n900 hw) Mar 31 17:38:26 has the qt based gui development already started at Nokia/Intel? Mar 31 17:40:06 repo.meego.com - 32.7 kB/s Mar 31 17:40:12 are people slashdotting it already? Mar 31 17:40:20 yes trumee - last weeks meeting valhalla_ said he was running maemo 6 ui framework (qt on x and it was fast and quite stable) Mar 31 17:40:25 yes, it isn't the fastest Mar 31 17:40:25 trumee: sure, the code is in its way... still some weeks to go Mar 31 17:40:27 thiago_home: 19kn here Mar 31 17:40:31 Stskeeps: anybody bothered to actually test what's going to happen on a meego N900 without BME, when constantly hooked up to wallchager? Mar 31 17:40:54 DocScrutinizer: feel free to test, there is image without bme Mar 31 17:40:59 I imagine it'll run to 2.7V and shut down? Mar 31 17:41:40 DocScrutinizer: I would do that test with a Nokia battery :) Mar 31 17:41:53 * michael_ wonders if Anas[z] is around, lurking under some pseudonym Mar 31 17:42:21 Stskeeps: I'm not paid by Nokia or Intel to give testing guinea pig for them Mar 31 17:42:56 DocScrutinizer: i personally only have my personal n900 but will try next time i have a spare one Mar 31 17:43:56 btw I elaborated on what I expect to happen. To verify this by own tests will help nothing, as it needs an 'official' statement of Nokia to push on this issue Mar 31 17:44:25 you could ask those people who tested n900 for scratchability Mar 31 17:45:42 michael_: pinged him but he went offline shortly after, will keep eyes open for him Mar 31 17:46:10 bt, wlan, wlan are the only proprietary parts of N900? what about camera, gps and video drivers? Mar 31 17:46:27 probably they are not there Mar 31 17:46:43 camera firmware is open, gps is nokia sw, 3d is imgtec Mar 31 17:46:52 * DocScrutinizer wonders if maybe Nokia is quite happy with this 'BME is all that separates you from doomsland' urban legend Mar 31 17:46:55 they just added the proprietary pieces that is necessary for the user to at least connect into a network Mar 31 17:47:11 robsta: thanks :-) Mar 31 17:47:23 How's MeeGo? Anybody got it on there N900 yet? Mar 31 17:47:28 i'm of the attitude that we have a good solution if people can gen their own images with the right bits with ease Mar 31 17:47:33 MrCoder: it's a console, thus far Mar 31 17:47:35 don't expect the video drivers to be open so soon :-) Mar 31 17:47:39 even if they are closed Mar 31 17:48:18 microlith: so, no X? Mar 31 17:48:21 anyone know what aava, netbook and shcdk are? http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/images/ Mar 31 17:48:23 microlith: Is it ment to be? Mar 31 17:48:39 yeah, forgot that the accelerated fbdev x11 video driver needs the sgx binaries Mar 31 17:48:39 rsalveti: n900 has x Mar 31 17:48:40 rsalveti: not as I understand it, the image download page explicitly says it boots into a terminal Mar 31 17:49:01 Stskeeps: yeah, but I mean the meego image Mar 31 17:49:09 rsalveti: fbdev works without if not modified to sgx Mar 31 17:49:14 you can use the vanilla fbdev Mar 31 17:49:16 yeah Mar 31 17:49:20 is there porting of core N900 applications like Conversations, sofia-sip and skype happening at Nokia as well? Mar 31 17:49:28 oh the links for the atom-based images just went up Mar 31 17:49:38 trumee: bit too early to know Mar 31 17:50:08 trumee: the good thing now is that we have another company creating products basing on the same core Mar 31 17:50:16 I assumed it would have a GUI from day one, silly me lol Mar 31 17:50:24 so it's now much easier to see open source components Mar 31 17:50:57 Any with a kexec-enabled maemo kernel (build from http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/Meego_kexec_install_on_N900) ? Mar 31 17:51:32 for anyone having a hard time navigating to trunk in the repo, it's here: http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/test/trunk-test/ Mar 31 17:51:41 we have a broken link issue Mar 31 17:52:35 someone needs to buy that thing more bandwidth Mar 31 17:52:52 are the images for intel devices and n900 using the same source components, or are they still distinct Mar 31 17:53:24 same shared system Mar 31 17:53:41 with some patches for arch diffs here and there Mar 31 17:53:56 So still a long way off an all singing all dancing replacement to Maemo? Mar 31 17:54:00 that poor server is getting hammered Mar 31 17:54:10 thats good news then :) i tohught the base systems of each side would take longer to combine Mar 31 17:54:26 Stskeeps, is it the maemo base or the moblin base Mar 31 17:54:40 where most came from Mar 31 17:54:40 MrCoder: MeeGo as a replacement for Maemo 5? You will see it coming thanks to MeeGo open development Mar 31 17:54:43 it's a combination of the two Mar 31 17:55:23 * drizztbsd has compiled and flashed the patched kernel :D Mar 31 17:55:33 dirkhh_: really? cool. the impression from day 0 was that it was going to be "just" the moblin packages ported to ARM Mar 31 17:55:49 dirkhh_, it always was anyway theres always shared components, but which side is considered upstream to which - since patches are made on one side or the other Mar 31 17:55:57 Jaffa: meego uses qt, moblin uses clutter Mar 31 17:55:57 Jaffa: and you wouldn't believe me when telling otherwise :) Mar 31 17:56:33 Jaffa: the teams have worked together like crazy for the last two months Mar 31 17:56:45 17K/s, :( Mar 31 17:56:47 honestly, it's still console right? there's only so many ways to put together a linux system that boots to console Mar 31 17:56:51 yeah, veeeery slow Mar 31 17:56:57 no meego fun 'til tomorrow at this rate Mar 31 17:57:10 qgil: *I* always believe you, honest :) Mar 31 17:57:11 ali1234: you'd be surprised Mar 31 17:57:22 and what we opened contains much more than just console Mar 31 17:57:26 slaine: but the fun will be until you get at the console :-) Mar 31 17:57:29 much of the infrastructure above is there Mar 31 17:57:37 qgil: Yep, I think I had the wrong end of the stick, I assumed it would come with a gui and being able to use the phone as a phone as part of the image. Mar 31 17:57:41 just none of the actual UI code (that still needs work) Mar 31 17:57:42 dirkhh_: the cooperation is the be thing and being able to talk about it :) Mar 31 17:57:52 ali1234: sure, but under that console you have the foundation for a unique Linux system, a winning stack :) Mar 31 17:57:54 dirkhh_: but that comes basically from moblin, doesn't it? Mar 31 17:57:57 meeehhh, the internet connection here at the hotel is so bad I almost feel like crying Mar 31 17:57:57 MrCoder: in May perhaps :) Mar 31 17:58:33 congrats ImadSousou Mar 31 17:58:36 While downloading (seems takes forever :-( ), I am wondering how to build, OSB (where is it) or chroot to install necessry pksg? Mar 31 17:58:38 dirkhh_: i really don't think i would be surprised Mar 31 17:58:40 rsalveti: we're using OBS so we started from Moblin Mar 31 17:58:46 http://pastebin.cross-lfs.org/6847 :( Mar 31 17:58:50 but lots of shared work Mar 31 17:58:54 slaine: At least the N900 has not been forgotten, thats made me happy :) Mar 31 17:59:00 * thebootroo too Mar 31 17:59:01 nod Mar 31 17:59:06 hey slaine - thanks Mar 31 17:59:10 sorry I mean OBS Mar 31 17:59:20 one hour until the meeting starts Mar 31 17:59:27 * Myrtti wants to go kick the router Mar 31 17:59:29 CosmoHill: 2 hours Mar 31 17:59:32 ezjd: give it a bit on developer stuff, things still happening Mar 31 17:59:34 MrCoder: can't be, because it's the best device if you want to test meego for arm Mar 31 17:59:34 you forgot about BST Mar 31 17:59:36 dammit Mar 31 17:59:45 they need it to be supported by n900 Mar 31 17:59:47 drizztbsd: there's a lot of system under Qt to manage Mar 31 17:59:48 CosmoHill: 2 hours until the TSG meeting starts Mar 31 17:59:50 I cant wait to see how Meego turns out :) Mar 31 17:59:54 how can i dual boot Meego on my N900 OR test X86 version on virtual machine ? Mar 31 17:59:56 otherwise the community is not going to help that much :-) Mar 31 18:00:12 thebootroo: you can't Mar 31 18:00:19 why ? Mar 31 18:00:21 different CPU arch's Mar 31 18:00:27 drizztbsd: "patched kernel" = maemo kernel with kexec ? Mar 31 18:00:32 ezjd: technically you can install a devel env on your n900 :) Mar 31 18:00:32 who can explain how xorg-x11-drv-mga snuck in to the repo ;-) Mar 31 18:00:35 you can do a dual boot inside n900 Mar 31 18:00:44 but it must run on ARM and X86 ? Mar 31 18:00:50 no ? Mar 31 18:00:52 bfree: beats me :-) Mar 31 18:01:00 * slaine wipes the tears from his eyes Mar 31 18:01:01 qgil: What's the format for this evening's meeting? Mar 31 18:01:08 thebootroo - two different images Mar 31 18:01:12 oh, bsi (battery third pin) is connected to both cellmo, and over a voltage divider to an adc pin on gaia.. cellmo side also has a current sense resistor for some reason.. Mar 31 18:01:16 yes i know Mar 31 18:01:18 Jaffa: like last week but better? :) Mar 31 18:01:19 Stskeep: I don't have a N900 :( I will try x86 build firstly Mar 31 18:01:27 i'm downloadind two images Mar 31 18:01:30 ;-) Mar 31 18:01:46 those cellmo bits are potentialy the only things bme would communicate with, for which we have no protocol documentation Mar 31 18:01:51 * thiago_home is downloading the qt4-4.6.1 src rpm to find out what patches were applied Mar 31 18:01:54 apoirier: yes Mar 31 18:01:56 can i burn atom image onto a usb stick and boot my core2duo with it for a testdrive? Mar 31 18:02:11 trumee: yes Mar 31 18:02:13 same question for me Mar 31 18:02:19 (and bme - hald-addon-bme protocol is also unknown for n900) Mar 31 18:02:20 trumee: but only if you have intel graphics :) Mar 31 18:02:26 shit Mar 31 18:02:28 drizztbsd: is it working fine ? Can you upload it somewhere ? Mar 31 18:02:30 sry Mar 31 18:02:33 or some other supported video card Mar 31 18:02:34 qgil: not hard ;)qgil: exxcellent :) Mar 31 18:02:37 ali1234: only nvidia here Mar 31 18:02:39 nvidia is right out :/ Mar 31 18:02:46 i have a nvidia so it will not work ? Mar 31 18:02:48 ali1234: hopefully not for long Mar 31 18:02:50 apoirier: yes, but you should made the symlink by yourself Mar 31 18:03:05 and with a virtual box ? Mar 31 18:03:05 haha, until nouveau gets good, yes Mar 31 18:03:09 every time I look, it will take more time to finish downloading Mar 31 18:03:19 10h for me :( Mar 31 18:03:21 ali1234: or we package up the nvidia drivers Mar 31 18:03:50 According to the announcement, no UI except xserver and some toolkit (gtk, qt) are available so today's code drop is really for developer :) Mar 31 18:03:59 stopping download now, dropped to 5kb/s Mar 31 18:04:20 "We" basically have enough information to reimplement bme from scratch.. though then we might also have to reimplement dsme, mce and hald-addon-bme... Mar 31 18:04:22 for me 10,1 kb/s Mar 31 18:04:44 ezjd: are there instructions on how to setup the development environment, scratchbox or MADDE? Mar 31 18:04:45 what does bme mean ? Mar 31 18:05:01 ShadowJK: Wasn't dsme supposed to be opened after Berlin Maemo summit? Mar 31 18:05:04 bme is the program that controls battery charging on n900 Mar 31 18:05:10 ok Mar 31 18:05:10 trumee: I just asked, and I don't know Mar 31 18:05:14 trumee: what you can do is http://wiki.meego.com/Developing_in_a_Meego_Environment Mar 31 18:05:15 a child from intel and nokia (who is the father, who is the mother?) is born, weight 392M Mar 31 18:05:16 Jaffa: dsme is Mar 31 18:05:23 * CosmoHill wonders if slaine is any good with linked lists Mar 31 18:05:25 it is closed source so if you want a fully open source OS on n900 you have to stay plugged in to AC all the time Mar 31 18:05:28 koupsa: ;lol Mar 31 18:05:33 still not the Qt Creator MADDE etc pieces integrated, working on it trumee Mar 31 18:05:55 ali1234, I suspect it would actually drain battery empty Mar 31 18:06:17 ShadowJK: yes and then you would never be able to charge it again without flashing back to the original firmware Mar 31 18:06:28 did you see this? instructions for n900 install http://maemoarena.com/2010/03/meego-now-available-for-download-for-nokia-n900/ Mar 31 18:06:32 qgil: that link is good enough to me :) Mar 31 18:06:51 for my part, i don't really care about proprietary drivers while they are maintened, but i want free framework so qt is a good option ;-) Mar 31 18:06:58 what hardware platform are most meego devrs using to develop on? Mar 31 18:06:59 ezjd, images are stilll making it to servers but if you need any help, poke me Mar 31 18:07:15 CosmoHill: what's the problem ? Mar 31 18:07:27 Stskeeps: Thx! Mar 31 18:07:33 mind if i PM you to keep the channel clean? Mar 31 18:07:37 sure Mar 31 18:07:57 ali1234, I think it would partially charge it when device is "off" Mar 31 18:08:22 koupsa: Interesting thins is that N900/ARM rootfs is only ~110MB Mar 31 18:08:56 ezjd: and feedback, feedback, feedback :) developers have a tendancy to be blind to issues when working too much with areas, so feedback wanted Mar 31 18:09:05 ezjd, good things come in small packages Mar 31 18:09:08 the smaller the better Mar 31 18:09:13 but can't i put this image on my MMC instead of rootfs cause i dont want to drop maemo for the moment ? Mar 31 18:09:16 lcuk: i'm tempted to quote you on that Mar 31 18:09:28 w00t_, its a common quote Mar 31 18:09:29 110MB is a lot for an image that has no UI yet, in my opinion Mar 31 18:09:43 lcuk: much better than I expected as moblin is so big Mar 31 18:09:47 ali1234: there is a lot of polishing needed in the OBS Mar 31 18:09:55 but if you want 10000000 apps on your device you need to keep each of them small and light - even with however many Tb will be available Mar 31 18:09:56 BTW, we Mar 31 18:09:59 Stskeeps: I really think meego is broken at birth if there are no sane sysfs nodes to interface a well documented chip like bq27200 and bq24150, and rather Nokia insists on handling the whole story like they'd be inventors of CC/CV LiIon charging Mar 31 18:10:13 speaking of OBS, is meego OBS open for business yet? Mar 31 18:10:23 DocScrutinizer: meego n900 hw adaptation, let's focus Mar 31 18:10:27 ezjd, euh maybe i don't now i actually ownload imageusb for atom notebook 392M Mar 31 18:10:33 ezjd, well moblin could afford to be more bloated, maemo has a history of fitting inside miniature devices Mar 31 18:10:36 We're trying to get some additional mirrors to handle the server load. Mar 31 18:11:10 DawnFoster: mind if I message you privately a minute? Mar 31 18:11:17 -> for a minute Mar 31 18:11:20 ali1234: OBS is not open, the repos are the end results of the OBS builds. Mar 31 18:11:25 w00t_: sure Mar 31 18:11:29 koupsa: I won't try this imageusb soon, but maybe moblin has some instruction? Mar 31 18:11:49 * lcuk is always reminded of the scene from appollo 13 where the techs were trying to startup the motors with very limited current available Mar 31 18:12:03 ali1234: OBS is open to see but not for everybody to build yet, being the reason that we're not sure how much can the infrastructure take - working on it as well Mar 31 18:12:21 "open to see" means i can clone the project and compile locally? Mar 31 18:12:39 DocScrutinizer: explain why an open source distro is broken ... because of bad hardware? Mar 31 18:12:54 qgil, sadly no login for outsiders yet to see things yet afaik Mar 31 18:12:54 ali1234 there are guys like Stskeeps who know better what can you exactly do today Mar 31 18:13:09 Stskeeps: I guess I will be busy this long weekend Mar 31 18:13:14 ali1234: Not yet open (OBS). Mar 31 18:13:23 qgil: but i expect things to clear up Mar 31 18:13:49 Stskeeps: ok, sorry for misinformation but the idea is to have it open ali1234 Mar 31 18:14:08 ali1234: there are several services being setup and too many simultaneous tasks atm Mar 31 18:14:41 lcuk: today at work we were discussing the scrubber scene with a box of bits on the table. But that's a story for when there's a couple of pints on the table :) Mar 31 18:14:53 what about native compiling then? were the srpms fixed so that they actually compile? Mar 31 18:14:57 ali1234: best way is to voice your concerns on meego-sdk or meego-community so we can discuss how to implement Mar 31 18:15:10 lol Jaffa :D Mar 31 18:15:38 speaking of which Mar 31 18:15:41 ali1234: builds in qemu user emulation and natively on arm Mar 31 18:15:45 have oyu decided on the london meet yet Mar 31 18:15:52 auke: where is there any broken hw??? it's the kernel that doesn't support the very decent hw in a way we would epect to see in a FOSS OS Mar 31 18:15:56 Stskeeps: i'm talking about for x86 Mar 31 18:16:00 difficult delivery for the mother of meego 10kb/s Mar 31 18:16:02 ali1234: ah Mar 31 18:16:16 Stskeeps: moblin srpms do not build, about 10% of them just fail unless you are using OBS Mar 31 18:16:25 DocScrutinizer: ok, so you're complaining about a missing driver? Mar 31 18:16:39 ali1234: please raise issue then Mar 31 18:16:41 or, a broken one? Mar 31 18:16:50 Stskeeps: it has been raised on the ML already Mar 31 18:17:08 ali1234: on the MeeGo SDK list? Mar 31 18:17:12 Im confussed, is meego a replacement to the planned Maemo 6? Mar 31 18:17:15 * w00t_ doesn't recall having seen it, but might have missed it Mar 31 18:17:18 no, on the moblin list, before meego was even announced Mar 31 18:17:23 well, for a non-release-critical obs for people to work/build against Mar 31 18:17:24 by the way, for specific bugs/requests now there is http://bugzilla.meego.com/ Mar 31 18:17:51 MrCoder: it's parallel to Maemo 6, the two are seperate. but applications should work on both with *relative* ease. Mar 31 18:18:15 for eg http://lists.moblin.org/pipermail/dev/2009-February/003665.html Mar 31 18:18:41 ali1234: might help to re-raise it then, in case new people would be dealing with it Mar 31 18:18:43 10kb/s like in last century! Mar 31 18:18:44 w00t_: So why have 2? Am I missing something? Mar 31 18:18:49 (or just to remind people) Mar 31 18:19:08 ali1234: mind if i ping you with some things over time to get some input re developer experience? Mar 31 18:19:14 auke: I'm complaining about a missing/broken driver that eports a standard sysfs node to access the batterycharger and the batterymeter chip Mar 31 18:19:26 Stskeeps: i'm not really a developer, at least not on moblin Mar 31 18:19:27 MrCoder: long story short: MeeGo is aimed to be a lot more open in code and processes than Maemo was. Maemo was also tied to Nokia, where MeeGo is not Mar 31 18:19:33 or does NOT Mar 31 18:19:35 Stskeeps: s/moblin/meego/ Mar 31 18:19:39 ali1234: k Mar 31 18:19:46 MrCoder: Harmattan development goes in parallel to MeeGo development. There are differences in the platform but we are working to make the official APIs match Mar 31 18:19:51 can anybody send me meego-netbook-usb by horse and ship may it willl be more faster :) Mar 31 18:20:11 lol Mar 31 18:20:17 qgil: do we have an FAQ item about this? if not, it might be nice to write one targetted at e.g. users/application developers (since the OS people will likely already know the difference) Mar 31 18:20:29 Stskeeps: feel free to ask me any questions though, i do love to share my opinion :) Mar 31 18:20:43 will it run in virtualbox? Mar 31 18:21:01 ? Mar 31 18:21:02 hardware has to be atom based? Mar 31 18:21:17 the intel atom image Mar 31 18:21:20 w00t_: there is http://wiki.maemo.org/What_can_we_realistically_expect#I_am_confused.__What_is_Harmattan_and_what_is_MeeGo_.3F__What_is_the_difference_between_both_.3F__Do_they_share_common_features_.3F Mar 31 18:21:22 atom and proton Mar 31 18:21:23 alden: the netbook image should if you have a processor tha tsupports ssse3 Mar 31 18:21:26 Thanks w00t_ and qgil, that clears a lot up! Where does QT fit in to all this? Is it going to be used for pretty much everything UI related? Mar 31 18:21:27 alden: no, the hardware does not have to be atom based Mar 31 18:21:35 ok, sweet Mar 31 18:21:49 ok cool Mar 31 18:21:55 MrCoder: Qt (QT is QuickTime) is the 'preferred' API, but by no means is it the only option for application development Mar 31 18:22:16 w00t_: Thanks again! Mar 31 18:22:17 auke: instead Nokia *starts* meego by spoiling it with their own proprietary closedsource driver called BME, that goes behind the back of standard sysfs node way to manage those things Mar 31 18:22:38 MrCoder: I imagine that (with things like Qt Creator and other toolkit work) it will end up being easier to work with, purely due to having the work put in that direction too Mar 31 18:23:32 DocScrutinizer: if we would have been OSS purists then there would have not been a feasible way to have an image for the N900 and someone would be telling us that we are ditching etc etc - this is why we decided to go for this approach Mar 31 18:23:43 DocScrutinizer: while I don't mean to detract from the message you're conveying.. and would love to see it open.. it is one component that was reasonably convincingly kept closed IIRC (from Stskeeps' processing of the request) Mar 31 18:24:28 qgil: will it be possible to use a bluetooth mouse with N900 running meego? Mar 31 18:24:42 should we take this discussion in #maemo as it has nothing to deal with anything released by meego? Mar 31 18:24:44 w00t_: Sorry for all the noobie questions, only had the phone for less then a week and trying to figure out what I should be learning to program with / in :) Mar 31 18:24:57 trumee: "possible", I guess so but no idea :) Mar 31 18:25:06 MrCoder: sure, no problem.. I'd suggest Qt myself, but I'm a bit biased :) Mar 31 18:25:12 lbt: will you be around for the meeting? Mar 31 18:25:20 yes Mar 31 18:25:24 I might be a bit delayed, as I'm not sure when we're having dinner here Mar 31 18:25:35 np Mar 31 18:25:37 MrCoder: Qt plays a big role in the MeeGo developer offering Mar 31 18:25:37 (Unfortunately, it's not within my power to decide that right now.) Mar 31 18:25:40 MrCoder: #qt and #qt-maemo are good places to hang around in, if you run across a problem you can't get answered, try giving me a hilight and I'll do my best :) Mar 31 18:25:41 w00t_: recent work (me ripping apart my N900 to read 'intel bq24150a' on USB abttery charger chip) revealed though, the whole very secret cruft in BME is largely a legend Mar 31 18:25:48 i would really like a bluetooth mouse and keyboard to make it a perfect latptop replacement on th go. Mar 31 18:25:57 qgil, using an external sontroller (like a mouse) would make using video out nicer Mar 31 18:26:00 controller Mar 31 18:26:06 catch you all tomorrow Mar 31 18:26:14 DocScrutinizer: if it is a legend, then surely there would have been no reason to keep it closed Mar 31 18:26:16 hopefully my image will have downloaded by then :) Mar 31 18:26:26 by slaine Mar 31 18:26:26 DocScrutinizer: I'm sure it wasn't closed (and kept that way) purely for fun Mar 31 18:26:47 if it's just a usb chip, hello libusb :) Mar 31 18:26:48 lcuk: check if it works and if not file an enhancement request? I'm definitely not the guy sitting on top of these decisions Mar 31 18:26:49 qgil, for virtual test set top box ui stuff :) Mar 31 18:26:50 w00t_: I really like the look of Qt and I will do just that :) Mar 31 18:27:02 qgil: If you would document *why EACTLY* we need BME, I'd say 'oh well, let's live with it until eventually it might get better'. But all I see is cargo cult coding Mar 31 18:27:10 of course, im just showing theres a realistic use case Mar 31 18:27:17 docsrutinizer: so, the kernel is open and you know the chip and if it is well documented, why aren't you already coding an open source driver for it instead of just whining? Mar 31 18:27:35 +1000 Mar 31 18:27:44 * Stskeeps sighs Mar 31 18:27:50 cos he is documentation scrutinizer, not driver coder :) Mar 31 18:28:06 Welcome to Moblin ? :-) Mar 31 18:28:06 with that useful info (chip id) someone else can now write a driver Mar 31 18:28:13 actually DocScrutinizer appears to be digging quite deep into the hardware Mar 31 18:28:13 DocScrutinizer: this is MeeGo Day 1 and nobody has said why we need BME to build images for the N900, or whether the MeeGo stack will have a good alternative for it at some point Mar 31 18:28:17 its been good to watch Mar 31 18:28:18 w00t_: ther's *always* a reason. The question is: which one, and is it a valid reason Mar 31 18:28:19 someone still forgot to change the welcome message :P Mar 31 18:28:27 DocScrutinizer: https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9314 Mar 31 18:28:28 Bug 9314: relicense BME Mar 31 18:28:34 rsalveti: yes, please file a bug ! Mar 31 18:28:48 spoussa: sure :-) Mar 31 18:28:59 with a patch ! Mar 31 18:29:33 spoussa: ;-) Mar 31 18:29:46 qgil: the point is I don't see we need _any_ alternative. To all my understanding the bq24150 chip should perform just fine without any BME cruft Mar 31 18:30:24 hmm if it is usb... the n900 doesn't support usb host... supposedly because of "battery charging" Mar 31 18:30:35 DocScrutinizer: then what is the problm with plain MeeGo? (note: I'm not an expert in this area at all, I just want to help improving the MeeGo stack) Mar 31 18:30:44 kauppi: because I'm EE, not kernel hacker Mar 31 18:30:45 can these two things be related i wonder? Mar 31 18:31:32 Lack of USB host and battery charging are not related. Mar 31 18:31:46 anybody can download latest meego usb image? Mar 31 18:31:48 guys : images DL are almost down but gitorious works fine Mar 31 18:31:53 spoussa: exactly Mar 31 18:31:56 for osme reason, it gets stuck here Mar 31 18:31:56 ah i see, it isn;t controlled on usb, it draws power from usb Mar 31 18:32:00 arauho yes but very very slox Mar 31 18:32:08 9 kB/s Mar 31 18:32:09 koupsa: i see :( Mar 31 18:32:10 everyone take turns downloading :) Mar 31 18:32:17 :) Mar 31 18:32:22 (me first) Mar 31 18:32:40 17hours 59mins remaining Mar 31 18:32:43 it doesn't even download here, it gets stuck ... Mar 31 18:32:47 alden: hehe Mar 31 18:33:03 10 hours remaining for me Mar 31 18:33:04 so, what's the joke with the meego servers then, on maemo.org it was our aging 770's hosting the servers, at meego it's 8088's? ;) Mar 31 18:33:06 sounds like someone needs authenticating torrent tracker or something Mar 31 18:33:07 dosnload 12hours! i go watch champions league.... barsa-arsenal Mar 31 18:33:17 lolol Stskeeps Mar 31 18:33:35 time for me to spend with my darling while downloading ;-) Mar 31 18:33:40 yeah, anyone up seeding? Mar 31 18:33:55 up for seeding* Mar 31 18:34:00 thebootroo, can you type one handed? Mar 31 18:34:08 spoussa: do you know the default root passwd? Mar 31 18:34:09 yes Mar 31 18:34:13 it's not rootme, like maemo Mar 31 18:34:13 :D Mar 31 18:34:20 lol Mar 31 18:34:24 MeeGo? Mar 31 18:34:28 meego Mar 31 18:34:30 qgil: the problem I see is BME negating the need to have decent sysfs nodes in meego, to controll these chips in a sane FOSS way Mar 31 18:34:46 meego is the default root pw Mar 31 18:35:15 DocScrutinizer: by that justification, then in some ways Maemo negated the need to have a sane FOSS base OS - yet here we are Mar 31 18:35:22 qgil: and you know interim solutions are here to stay a long time ;-) Mar 31 18:35:22 DocScrutinizer: would you be capable of writing a BME replacement? Mar 31 18:35:23 ssh enabled? Mar 31 18:35:26 DocScrutinizer: as Stskeeps says, this is a Maemo discussion isn't it Mar 31 18:35:27 ..heading towards one Mar 31 18:36:02 Stskeeps: that's a sensible suggestion Mar 31 18:36:06 spoussa: nice, thanks, I tried this one but I guess I got a typo :-) Mar 31 18:36:14 qgil: exactly not. I'm asking for a clean meego from beginning, not for a better maemo Mar 31 18:36:22 I actually don't think how the Nokia crap is handled is too bad but why isn't the Intel WiMAX Supplicant handled the same way (i.e. in a non-free repo not MeeGo main)? Mar 31 18:36:34 bfree: ah, good one Mar 31 18:36:39 Stskeeps: I guess I'd be able to do that, yes Mar 31 18:37:02 Stskeeps: though it' Mar 31 18:37:17 s impossible to write replacement without original specs Mar 31 18:37:21 DocScrutinizer: let's start a frank discussion on maemo-developers on if it's possible to make one, even at less battery efficiency Mar 31 18:37:55 it's probably better to approach things that way instead. Mar 31 18:38:09 +120000 Mar 31 18:38:12 +1000 Mar 31 18:38:14 lol Mar 31 18:38:16 +over 9000 Mar 31 18:38:16 cos atm it's just blinding asking for open sourcing, while what you actually want, is information on how to make it tick Mar 31 18:38:24 (no lipo fire reference there..) Mar 31 18:38:29 * rsalveti misses dpkg and apt Mar 31 18:38:36 and ive seen docS give more info on the battery than anyone to date Mar 31 18:38:42 they should've put up a torrent Mar 31 18:38:44 Stskeeps: (original specs) that's what I was refering to when I asked for detailend eplanation what BME actually adds to meego which we can't have without Mar 31 18:39:12 DocScrutinizer: right. make a good introductionary mail, i'll gladly read it through, and let's see where this leads. Mar 31 18:39:25 Stskeeps: I think this is entirely possible to create open BME. Mar 31 18:39:39 well, we have a start then :) Mar 31 18:39:46 spoussa, then get involved in the proper discussion thats about to start :p Mar 31 18:39:46 sounds like there's a start of the process :) Mar 31 18:39:59 and with that I'm off for dinner Mar 31 18:39:59 bbl Mar 31 18:40:00 nice :-) Mar 31 18:40:12 but why now? Why not already when N900 was launced? Mar 31 18:40:13 (lcuk: why are you always around when I discuss food?) Mar 31 18:40:22 Or N810, N800 ? Mar 31 18:40:37 spoussa, open source is evolutionary Mar 31 18:40:48 and different people have different skills Mar 31 18:41:12 and different times of coming to the community Mar 31 18:41:18 lbt: as we'll be starting the meeting in 1:20h, I'll be around. Mar 31 18:41:21 DocScrutinizer has an obvious point about this component and might just have the skills to do something about it Mar 31 18:41:23 spufor N8xx situation might be completely different. That's why I meentioned cargo cult coding Mar 31 18:41:25 could it be possible to launch the N900 image in Qemu on ubuntu pc and then tweak it and put it in dual boot on mmc in my n900 for safe testing ? Mar 31 18:42:01 spoussa: ^^^ Mar 31 18:42:33 at least with n900 we don't have retu and tahvo and there seems to be more standard components Mar 31 18:42:45 so most likely a different situation now Mar 31 18:42:50 Stskeeps: true.. Mar 31 18:43:36 spoussa: iirc N810 actully needed support from software to charge battery and not kill it. For N900 it's a better situation. That's why I think we don't need *any* BME alike thing for meego Mar 31 18:43:45 oh yeah, we got vim inside :-) Mar 31 18:43:56 i don't see any md5sum for meego-usb-notebok ... Mar 31 18:44:04 * rsalveti happier now Mar 31 18:44:08 DocScrutinizer: so, agree with me that we'll start this discussion on maemo-developers? if we can make a implementation that is safe and sane, maybe even legally non-liable, it would be good for everyone Mar 31 18:44:30 DocScrutinizer: it's true that N900 is easier so I take back by N8xx comment. Mar 31 18:44:48 Stskeeps: ack Mar 31 18:44:51 k Mar 31 18:47:00 DocScrutinizer & Stskeeps: you can quote on me on the open BME thing but keep in mind that I am not the kernel hacker or expert on this area. My comment is based on some discussion at Nokia in the early N900 days. Mar 31 18:47:17 :nod: Mar 31 18:47:25 k Mar 31 18:48:51 so why are they not opening BME again? Mar 31 18:49:39 it's battery with litium and fire and booooh scary stuff Mar 31 18:49:55 * qgil reminds that this is the #meego channel and BME is not part of the MeeGo release Mar 31 18:50:12 actually it is Mar 31 18:50:13 qgil: ack. Mar 31 18:50:24 DocScrutinizer: nop, it's not Mar 31 18:50:31 tablets-dev.nokia.com is well, obviously nokia Mar 31 18:50:44 DocScrutinizer: http://repo.meego.com/ Mar 31 18:50:57 The image with the closed Nokia proprietary binaries will add following functionalities: Mar 31 18:50:59 Battery management (BME), without this you may cause damage to your battery. Mar 31 18:52:11 DocScrutinizer: is this a big problem? either you are concerned about the MeeGo stack or you are concerned about the N900 as a hardware platform to ease MeeGo development Mar 31 18:52:20 I accept any bets against this. The batery damage warning is moot Mar 31 18:52:40 DocScrutinizer: I guess that's easier to say when you are not a liable company Mar 31 18:53:05 I know ;-) Been there, done that, feel with you Mar 31 18:53:31 DocScrutinizer: so... can we move forward? ;) Mar 31 18:53:35 yep Mar 31 18:53:38 happily Mar 31 18:53:53 * auke moves forward Mar 31 18:53:58 * alden wonders which way is forward Mar 31 18:54:19 a few kilobytes more on my download is forward ;) Mar 31 18:54:20 * qgil moves to laundry room and comes back soon Mar 31 18:55:56 alden: that way ----> Mar 31 18:56:05 it is a bit fun to see people taking pictures of their n900's running a .. xterm Mar 31 18:56:55 Stskeeps: where can i find these pictures ? Mar 31 18:57:10 thebootroo: talk.maemo.org Mar 31 18:57:10 =D Mar 31 18:57:15 ok Mar 31 18:58:24 http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=590170&postcount=16 Mar 31 18:59:09 and it's also funny (but expected) how people are whining that there's no full fledged everything-done public release of meego Mar 31 18:59:15 2.6.28, it's old :/ Mar 31 18:59:24 .28 :o Mar 31 18:59:26 users really don't get it. Mar 31 18:59:30 good morning Mar 31 18:59:38 wait is that really all there is/ Mar 31 18:59:41 Stskeeps: does it count if the xterm is running irssi within? Mar 31 18:59:44 just a terminal? Mar 31 19:00:11 morning anaZ Mar 31 19:00:30 frals, iksaif: we have a 2.6.33 with working LCD screen but we slipped a bit on repository sync Mar 31 19:00:44 it runs linus tree plus tsc2005 and updated lcd driver patches. Mar 31 19:00:49 (on n900) Mar 31 19:00:58 ah, thats cool Mar 31 19:01:03 great :) Mar 31 19:01:04 hey arjan Mar 31 19:01:09 btw, what scheduler does the meego kernel use? Mar 31 19:01:32 there is only one (cpu) scheduler Mar 31 19:01:42 on 2.6.28 it use O(1) scheduler Mar 31 19:02:02 on 2.6.33, the new scheduler Mar 31 19:02:14 maybe you mean i/o scheduler ? Mar 31 19:02:24 (check sysfs) Mar 31 19:02:40 iksaif: is it better than O(1) ? ;-) Mar 31 19:02:47 yep Mar 31 19:02:52 O(1) doesn't mean fast Mar 31 19:02:55 iksaif: no, I mean process scheduler. Because maybe BFS would be nice Mar 31 19:02:57 just mean O(1) Mar 31 19:03:00 brain fuck scheduler. Mar 31 19:03:37 didn't try BFS, don't know if it would work well on a mobile device Mar 31 19:03:53 BFS is meant to have a SSD mode Mar 31 19:03:59 iksaif: it's in androids cyanogen mod for example. Mar 31 19:04:17 it's quite speedy ^^ Mar 31 19:05:02 well, may be speedy and kill your battery :p Mar 31 19:05:07 since meego already have xserver working, why could we develop a basic qt app to see how it works ? but is there qt on this version ? Mar 31 19:05:36 iksaif: I think to remember that it has very little overhead. it's basically just round-robin anyway. Mar 31 19:05:55 thebootroo: might be qt there Mar 31 19:06:01 thebootroo: yes, there is Mar 31 19:06:06 cooooooooooool Mar 31 19:06:10 best news of the day Mar 31 19:06:14 :) Mar 31 19:06:18 thebootroo: try running /usr/lib/libQtCore.so.4 Mar 31 19:06:26 i cant Mar 31 19:06:30 still DL Mar 31 19:06:33 :( Mar 31 19:06:44 Shapeshifter: I don't know, but I think it's better to use a fine tuned CFS :) Mar 31 19:06:54 so when i 'll have it, i'm goign to hack all night ;-) Mar 31 19:07:12 Shapeshifter: BFS does not do anything anymore since 2.6.33 Mar 31 19:07:13 if you feel adventurous, upgrade to 4.7 TP and make a QML app Mar 31 19:07:26 BFS exposed a kernel bug in the scheduler that we fixed in 2.6.33 Mar 31 19:07:43 (I don't want to pretend I fixed it, but I did find the bug and proved it to the scheduler guys ;-) Mar 31 19:08:44 EasyStreet looks like it's being a bit inadequate; if a mirror is needed for repo.meego.com, I can probably arrange for one at PSU pretty quick. Feel free to email me at jrayhawk@omgwallhack.org. Mar 31 19:09:22 arjan: mhh, got a link on that or something? what bug? and why doesn't it "do anything anymore"? Mar 31 19:10:03 BFS does not give you any advantage Mar 31 19:10:31 if you look at the latest BFS announcement mails they' Mar 31 19:10:35 re now absent of actual data.. ;) Mar 31 19:10:53 like SD, BFS was a good thing Mar 31 19:11:03 even if it's not actually merged Mar 31 19:11:04 yep it proved there was a bug Mar 31 19:11:09 ah Mar 31 19:11:17 well timechart helped prove the details of the bug Mar 31 19:11:23 but it was a good "there is room for improvement" thing Mar 31 19:12:34 fwiw we do track scheduler performance *very* carefully Mar 31 19:12:45 and we have various tools to show how things are going Mar 31 19:12:49 * qgil smiles seeing that http://bugzilla.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1 was filed against Tracker Mar 31 19:13:06 arjan: do you know what the status of runtime power management in linux-omap ? Mar 31 19:14:10 iksaif: not sure; I do know that the mainline kernel did get runtime PM in 2.6.33 Mar 31 19:14:19 if the omap guys didn't try to get their stuff into mainline.. shame on them ;-) Mar 31 19:15:54 apparently there are 361 MeeGo bugs filed already - sounds like good bugzilla testing Mar 31 19:16:23 361 duplicate of "I only see a term !!" ? :p Mar 31 19:16:46 lol Mar 31 19:17:00 i hope not Mar 31 19:18:05 RTFRL Mar 31 19:18:13 read the release notes ;) Mar 31 19:18:21 iksaif: real bugs e.g. http://bugzilla.meego.com/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=NEEDINFO&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=WAITING%20FOR%20UPSTREAM&bug_status=REOPENED&chfieldfrom=2010-03-31&chfieldto=Now&query_format=advanced&order=bug_id&query_based_on= Mar 31 19:18:22 lol Mar 31 19:18:29 arjan: the omap is currently adapting to the ML runtime PM Mar 31 19:18:35 oh did you hear about the MIPS support going "RTFM" to it's customers? Mar 31 19:18:47 was that mips? I thought it was acer Mar 31 19:18:49 NishanthMenon: hello! Mar 31 19:18:57 spoussa, hi Mar 31 19:19:23 nope it was Mips Mar 31 19:19:32 Anybody volunteers starting http://wiki.meego.com/MeeGo.gitorious.org , linked from http://meego.gitorious.org/ ? Mar 31 19:19:33 Acer would charge you to fix their crap Mar 31 19:19:55 NishanthMenon: You know more about OMAP runtime PM. What is that status of that in mainline ? Mar 31 19:20:07 NishanthMenon: hey bud Mar 31 19:20:10 spoussa, not mainlined yet i think Mar 31 19:20:12 prpplague, hi Mar 31 19:20:13 There was a question about that here Mar 31 19:20:23 shiiiiiiiiiiiiit : my meego image dl failed after one hour of 10kbps :( :( :( :( 4 Mar 31 19:20:38 * NishanthMenon needs to catchup, he "just found" the irc channel today Mar 31 19:20:53 spoussa: it is slowly working its way into mainline, but it has a ways to go Mar 31 19:21:06 dl is stopped but i have only 48mb downloaded .... Mar 31 19:21:19 too bad Mar 31 19:21:33 spoussa, runtime pm needs hwmod as per last i heard from khilman Mar 31 19:21:45 spoussa: http://www.elinux.org/OMAP_Power_Management#PM_code_in_Mainline Mar 31 19:21:55 hwmod for o4 is there in one of the links i saw somewhere.. Mar 31 19:21:57 spoussa: khilman generally keeps that page uptodate Mar 31 19:22:02 thx Mar 31 19:22:05 * NishanthMenon tries to recollect Mar 31 19:24:19 i'm curious what hardware platform meego devrs are using for the test platform, any feedback/info would be appreciated Mar 31 19:24:33 oo good question Mar 31 19:24:34 prpplague: pretty much the ones we released for Mar 31 19:24:34 n900s ? Mar 31 19:24:43 netbooks, n900s and some intel moorsetowns Mar 31 19:24:50 surely Mar 31 19:25:08 moorsetowns? Mar 31 19:25:28 might be nice for that info to be posted on the developer section of the meego pages Mar 31 19:26:20 CosmoHill: moorsetown is the mobile atom cpu/chip intel is working on (google for it, you'll find demos and stuff with it0 Mar 31 19:26:35 CosmoHill, I thought it was MSI Mar 31 19:27:00 ah it is MSI Mar 31 19:27:13 MIPS doesn't make anything tangible ;p Mar 31 19:28:03 hum maybe I'll try to work on pm if my gsoc on musb is accepted :) Mar 31 19:28:15 download stopped, cannot resume Mar 31 19:29:24 spoussa, i found a wip branch if you are interested http://dev.omapzoom.org/?p=santosh/kernel-omap4-base.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/omap4_next-wip Mar 31 19:30:38 thx, it is also more about info when do we have the stuff in ML so we can pull it in for MeeGo. Mar 31 19:31:10 lbt, i'm proud to announce that i just ordered myself a N900 today :) Mar 31 19:31:13 spoussa, ouch.. that is a planning question. can you drop me an email i can followup internally and get an answer Mar 31 19:31:17 heffer: :) Mar 31 19:31:49 X-Fade: just checking you're around :) Mar 31 19:31:49 sure. Nothing urgent, Arjan was just asking that.... Mar 31 19:31:57 lbt: here Mar 31 19:32:04 spoussa, thx Mar 31 19:32:16 spoussa: it'd be nice to only have ONE runtime pm framework in the kernel Mar 31 19:32:19 x-fade no tekojo yet Mar 31 19:32:22 unfunny to have two at the same time ;) Mar 31 19:32:33 lbt: No, but it is still early :) Mar 31 19:32:42 arjan, i just know of one runtime pm framework Mar 31 19:32:49 heffer, good one there. i am going to wait until i see qt glory on meego ;) Mar 31 19:32:57 arjan: I think the omap PM is based on the same FW. Mar 31 19:33:03 backend could use soc specific implementation to handle the runtime framework hooks Mar 31 19:33:07 i got mine for 399€ off ebay Mar 31 19:33:19 it's new, not a used one, too :) Mar 31 19:33:29 btw, there is a presentation in ELC2010 (san fransisco) on runtime framework from khilman Mar 31 19:33:44 heffer: is it covered under Nokia's warranty? Mar 31 19:33:47 NishanthMenon: yes, I'll be there. Mar 31 19:34:09 spoussa, cool.. we can hit a beer then ;) Mar 31 19:34:20 or two... Mar 31 19:34:23 :) Mar 31 19:34:28 trumee, should be. it is a device that was sold by a german provider alongside with a contract. so basically someone is selling their subsidized phone Mar 31 19:35:22 and as germany is very strict what warranty laws is concerned i'm pretty sure it is covered Mar 31 19:40:57 does anyone already thought about meego on plug computers? - maybe there are some usecases based on plugcomputer using usb displays - just an idea ... maybe just senseless but maybe not .. Mar 31 19:41:03 ohai heffer. Mar 31 19:41:13 heffer: 400€ for a n900? Mar 31 19:41:16 th0br0, right Mar 31 19:41:28 heffer: i envy you. unfortunately, my next 400€ will be spent on some netbook. Mar 31 19:41:36 but then, i'll be able to run meego on it too Mar 31 19:41:51 :) won't meego run on you freerunner? Mar 31 19:42:07 CosmoHill: yes Mar 31 19:42:07 no idea. i won't even try it tbh. Mar 31 19:43:20 o/ anaZ Mar 31 19:43:31 heffer: armv5 vs armv4 :/ Mar 31 19:43:32 lbt: huh? Mar 31 19:43:39 oh okay :) Mar 31 19:43:43 anaZ: I'm not coming downstairs.. I don't feel all that well Mar 31 19:43:43 heffer: maybe if you bootstrap it but it is a bit problematic Mar 31 19:43:47 probably just too tired Mar 31 19:43:47 CosmoHill: the RCA question Mar 31 19:44:03 so my sub need a splitteR? Mar 31 19:44:36 nah, for systems with only stereo the sub mixes both channels Mar 31 19:45:27 looking at it it can also do speaker-level pass-thru mixing Mar 31 19:47:55 thank you mrshaver for making SSO happen meego.com ---> bugzilla.meego.com Mar 31 19:49:00 qgil: it works for now, but may not be the long term SSO solution! Mar 31 19:49:17 mrshaver: it's more than I have even seen in any bugzilla ;) Mar 31 19:49:26 ever Mar 31 19:49:41 mrshaver: any idea how many hits the download servers getting ? Mar 31 19:49:55 people make it sound like this is a release Mar 31 19:50:02 I left a download running at work, it was crawling :) Mar 31 19:50:13 it's just starting to push (bi)weekly snapshots Mar 31 19:50:15 arjan: There's been a lot of confusion alright Mar 31 19:50:16 long downloads are basically a slow ddos on the servers :) Mar 31 19:50:27 X-Fade: lol Mar 31 19:50:33 slaine: anas is working on getting the mirrors working, this should help Mar 31 19:50:49 No worries, i was just curious about the numbers Mar 31 19:51:02 it'll be there when I get in Mar 31 19:51:20 I might have some time for the meeting tonight too, we'll see Mar 31 19:56:25 TSG meeting at 20:00 UTC, in #meego-meeting , questions go in #meego-meeting-questions Mar 31 19:57:46 CosmoHill: you're lists still ok ? Mar 31 19:57:55 yeah think so Mar 31 19:57:58 I saved it afterwards Mar 31 19:58:22 so you did, svn right ? Mar 31 19:58:28 yep Mar 31 19:58:44 was doing 3 things at once and watching the time, sorry, if I wasn't responding quickly Mar 31 19:59:29 svn?? Mar 31 20:00:52 DawnFoster: where's the agenda ? Mar 31 20:01:02 topic has it Mar 31 20:01:08 Ah, found it Mar 31 20:01:09 ta Mar 31 20:01:11 http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-technical-steering-group-meeting-0 Mar 31 20:01:34 X-Fade: did you add that text? Mar 31 20:01:48 No, did you? Mar 31 20:02:35 no, and the log is on a different PC so I can't see it Mar 31 20:04:43 Questions channel is #meego-questions again? Mar 31 20:04:46 right Mar 31 20:05:35 trumee: logs is published live, sec Mar 31 20:05:51 trumee: http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-31-19.58.log.txt Mar 31 20:05:58 jaffa, #meego-meeting-questions Mar 31 20:06:26 Stskeeps, thanks Mar 31 20:06:40 jusliukk: Ta Mar 31 20:07:21 I personally can't open the architecture diagram on http://meego.com/developers/meego-architecture Mar 31 20:07:38 it's there now Mar 31 20:07:48 Yeah thanks Mar 31 20:07:57 lool: chat in here Mar 31 20:07:59 told you the update was in progress ;) Mar 31 20:08:03 woo @ geoclue Mar 31 20:08:33 * lbt has no clue about geoclie Mar 31 20:08:47 it's open, which is what matters Mar 31 20:09:14 ah http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/GeoClue Mar 31 20:10:27 * thiago_home preferes geoglue Mar 31 20:10:40 * arjan glues thiago to his geo Mar 31 20:11:58 DawnFoster: spoussa misspelt GeoClue. It's not GeoGlue... Mar 31 20:13:13 We're so not going to make the hour meeting ;) Mar 31 20:13:52 lbt: i don't think we'll get to the proposals tonite Mar 31 20:13:54 X-Fade: ohhh yes. Mar 31 20:14:44 th0br0: Well, I hope we do. RWG is important. Mar 31 20:14:50 me too. Mar 31 20:14:58 but given that there are only 45 minutes left, Mar 31 20:15:02 we're already focusing on questions Mar 31 20:15:09 but haven't really talked much about architecture at all, idk Mar 31 20:15:23 please look at the diagram and do most questions on the mailing list Mar 31 20:15:28 yep. Mar 31 20:15:51 i do hope the security question gets answered - it looks like the maemo 6 security infra was pushed into git Mar 31 20:16:06 jusliukk: not much of it... but it's a start Mar 31 20:16:15 or ask here Mar 31 20:16:27 but mailing list is nicer since then others can read the answers later as well Mar 31 20:16:30 has anyone analyzed the threat model maemo 6 security covers? Mar 31 20:16:48 jusliukk: http://wiki.maemo.org/MaemoSecurity Mar 31 20:16:51 seen that? Mar 31 20:16:53 folks are there any mirrors for http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/n900/images/ ? looks like the server is getting stomped on Mar 31 20:16:58 jusliukk: Check the presentations. Mar 31 20:17:00 was just looking for some sort of over view, that's fine for now Mar 31 20:17:06 bittorrent anyone? Mar 31 20:17:24 lbt, x-fade, i know all that stuff, that's why i'm worried ;) Mar 31 20:17:27 NishanthMenon: post when you've set it up Mar 31 20:17:35 NishanthMenon: i'll try to mirror it Mar 31 20:17:47 jusliukk: happy to discuss - but now isn't a great time :) Mar 31 20:17:49 lbt, th0br0, thx Mar 31 20:18:01 lbt, ack Mar 31 20:18:03 not that I'm anything more than a user Mar 31 20:18:34 NishanthMenon: unfortunately, my dedi box isn't getting high speeds now either Mar 31 20:18:47 I'd love a mirror for x86 netbook image :D or a torrent Mar 31 20:18:49 Jaffa: maybe that should be "now the code is out will all dev discussion go public? Mar 31 20:18:53 trumee: No offence, but your questions don't seem directly relevant to the agenda ;-) Mar 31 20:19:02 lbt: well, indeed :-/ Mar 31 20:19:21 th0br0, i wish i could set something up, btw, Stskeeps might be good to have something like a .md5 to verify downloads ;) Mar 31 20:19:49 NishanthMenon: good suggestion Mar 31 20:19:50 Jaffa: just worried about N900's future :) Mar 31 20:20:13 NishanthMenon: wonder if we should do gpg sigs instead though Mar 31 20:20:18 NishanthMenon: (even more security) Mar 31 20:20:46 gpg sig the sha1 sums? :D Mar 31 20:20:48 arjan, md5/sha/gpg anything to verify.. dont really care as long as i know i have the right download.. Mar 31 20:21:29 Stskeeps: good question Mar 31 20:21:40 NishanthMenon: i'm just getting the images, give me ~15 min hopefully Mar 31 20:22:11 th0br0, no hurry.. 1 hr download for me.. just got a connection :) Mar 31 20:22:15 :) Mar 31 20:22:21 trumee: But you're not going to get an answer. I can probably say from the info already been unveiled that MeeGo will have open source applications which allow it to do things. Nokia will either ship those or write closed source "value add" apps for their MeeGo devices. Whether or not those OSS apps, or the following MeeGo releases, will be consumer grade on your N900 is a question to which there is no answer currently. Mar 31 20:24:21 NishanthMenon: you want the tgz or the ubiimg? Mar 31 20:24:28 where can i find the agenda? Mar 31 20:24:38 agenda: http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-technical-steering-group-meeting-0 Mar 31 20:24:38 th0br0, i am good now that i have a connection :) Mar 31 20:24:40 alden: http://meego.com/community/events/2010/meego-technical-steering-group-meeting-0 Mar 31 20:24:46 thanks though.. Mar 31 20:24:51 thanks Mar 31 20:24:52 NishanthMenon: still, 1h is > than max speed :P Mar 31 20:25:32 * NishanthMenon wonders if he'd get anything better on his network :D and being a patient man decides to twiddle thumbs ;) Mar 31 20:28:30 NishanthMenon: :D well, i'll have that mirror up in 8 min anyway. Mar 31 20:28:44 th0br0, thx.. good to have a backup ;) Mar 31 20:28:48 :) Mar 31 20:28:53 arjan: That's either very honest or a very political answer ;-) Mar 31 20:29:32 Jaffa: it's both :) Mar 31 20:29:42 arjan: The best kind ;-) Mar 31 20:29:50 at intel we have an internal bugzilla-like thing where we track ahrdware issues and stuff Mar 31 20:30:20 and in Nokia we have internal things for products not announced too Mar 31 20:30:27 you can expect any company to have that Mar 31 20:30:33 yep Mar 31 20:30:36 arjan: TBH, I wasn't expecting a straight yes; hardware being the most obvious example, but Nokia having consumer grade hardware is an even bigger issue. Mar 31 20:30:52 jaffa - RWG ... pay attention Mar 31 20:30:58 thiago_home: Indeed. I suppose it follows on from the question I asked which wasn't passed on... Mar 31 20:31:03 * Jaffa does as he's told Mar 31 20:31:05 Jaffa: also for some things like binary applications we have some internal stuff too.. but that's not really meego.com software in my view Mar 31 20:31:27 now we're not really following the plan strictly, ait? Mar 31 20:31:48 * thiago_home agrees Mar 31 20:31:53 lbt, here we go Mar 31 20:31:54 go lbt go lbt go go go! ;)( Mar 31 20:31:57 arjan: odd question, what is wimax binary supplicant doing in trunk? Mar 31 20:31:59 MeeGo, in its core, is an Open Source project and it should be all in the open Mar 31 20:32:09 what a company may productise it for, that's its business Mar 31 20:32:10 Stskeeps: eh woops Mar 31 20:32:16 Stskeeps: that's a bug Mar 31 20:32:22 please file it in bugzila Mar 31 20:32:49 thiago_home: OK, cool; so I'll point to my unasked question on #meego-meeting-questions whether architectural discussions about oFono/Telepathy stuff will be on public mailing lists now :) Mar 31 20:33:50 aren't both already open projects? Mar 31 20:34:43 w00t_: arjan said (on the integration): "21:16 <+arjan> #info Yes. We're still figuring out how that is going to work exactly". So where is that "working out" happening? Mar 31 20:34:51 oh bloody hell Mar 31 20:35:01 * w00t_ hasn't been following/forgot there was a meeting Mar 31 20:35:20 log url above Mar 31 20:36:08 lbt: Maemo Garage has been much smaller in scope than Extras, and the RWG has to encompass all manner of surrounding-software, whether libraries or whizzy end-user apps. Maemo's Garage isn't an equivalent structure. Mar 31 20:36:58 Stskeeps: ? Mar 31 20:37:11 live log url :P Mar 31 20:38:12 OBS will change how garage operates? O.o Mar 31 20:38:32 Stskeeps: ..where? Mar 31 20:38:35 javispedro: i.e. autobuilder Mar 31 20:38:39 w00t_: topic, I guess? Mar 31 20:38:47 w00t_: trac.tspre.org/meetbot somewhere Mar 31 20:39:23 * w00t_ sees no link anywhere, gives up, and continues reading scrollback Mar 31 20:39:26 javispedro, the garage term is misleading, garage in maemo and in moblin was something comepletely different Mar 31 20:39:45 OBS will make a revolution in what the 'garage' will be Mar 31 20:39:48 http://garage.moblin.org/ Mar 31 20:39:51 I see... Mar 31 20:40:31 tekojo: say it in meego-questions... :) Mar 31 20:40:55 but I think they are getting there :) Mar 31 20:41:52 Jaffa: there is a difference between the minimal core and the not-required-but-nice components that can be in core Mar 31 20:42:05 Stskeeps: did your question wrt 'why weekly thingies' get answered? Mar 31 20:42:09 * w00t_ didn't really see it addressed Mar 31 20:42:15 arjan: And that is what we want the RWG for. Mar 31 20:42:23 arjan: OK, but there's a line somewhere and then how do we manage the stuff outside that? Mar 31 20:42:37 w00t_: Answer was "make it easier for people to report bugs against discrete versions" Mar 31 20:42:40 w00t_: IIRC Mar 31 20:42:43 for me the line is "generally used by enough official apps" Mar 31 20:42:46 Jaffa: ah, must have missed that Mar 31 20:42:50 * w00t_ is now caught up Mar 31 20:42:55 communit contrbuted binary drivers? Mar 31 20:42:55 versus stuff outside that has a different "SLA/support" kind of thing Mar 31 20:43:00 (bad reason IMO really) Mar 31 20:43:04 lbt: yeah, that had me puzzled too Mar 31 20:43:06 slaine: huh? :P Mar 31 20:43:13 if something is common and useful enough to support it, versus something that isn't Mar 31 20:43:16 lbt, what would be the trust level of the community repos (if any)? Mar 31 20:43:42 arjan: Right. And so, for example, Hermes has used python-facebook, python-twitter and python-evolution. None of which are in "core" Maemo and there's no reason to assume there'd be in "core" MeeGo (or, if they are, some other J. Random Library is easily determinable) Mar 31 20:43:59 jusliukk: the same as extras now... see my recent ml post Mar 31 20:44:07 for these specific I'd like them to use libsocialweb instead Mar 31 20:44:15 we already have a core component to talk to social websites Mar 31 20:44:24 arjan we didn't have that :) Mar 31 20:44:30 now we do ;-) Mar 31 20:44:52 arjan: see the proposal, this more than just a garage project. Mar 31 20:44:58 arjan: But, again, there's a process for moving stuff from "used once" to "used twice" to "oh, shit, it's common, let's support it centrally". Mar 31 20:45:24 arjan: Until stuff gets to that final point, how is QA managed? How is stuff coordinated so that that end point gets reached? etc. Mar 31 20:45:45 all good questions Mar 31 20:45:54 Hence the RWG (AIUI) ;-) Mar 31 20:45:58 for me btw, security fixes/support is more critical than QA even Mar 31 20:46:09 sounds like the KDE's "two apps" rule. Mar 31 20:47:34 Jaffa: I think for sure we need some kind of structure Mar 31 20:47:36 lbt: I think, before kicking off more ML discussion, you should have some background on the proposal. In particular, about what Maemo Extras is; what -testing/-devel is; what Moblin Garage is; what Maemo Garage is. There seemed to be a lot of confusion when discussing the proposal about terms like "garage" Mar 31 20:47:39 yay! let's give deb a good bashing ;) SCNR Mar 31 20:47:39 WG or not is a good question Mar 31 20:47:53 arjan: Also think public OBS. Mar 31 20:47:54 Jaffa: yes, I didn't expect that Mar 31 20:48:01 I think the TSG just said "the proposal needs more filling in, but we see it is important" Mar 31 20:48:06 Jaffa: yep... there isn't much we can really discuss yet without being further informed about the current plans Mar 31 20:48:18 what is the point of the .deb proposal ? Mar 31 20:48:26 slaine: to be bashed. Mar 31 20:48:30 am I missing something ? Mar 31 20:48:31 heh. Mar 31 20:48:35 ;) Mar 31 20:48:36 th0br0: lol Mar 31 20:48:46 lbt, (I read the recent ml post) - you are aware that maemosec grants priviledges based on the repo where an app was installed from? if untrusted repo (eg extras) -> app gets no priviledges on device? Mar 31 20:48:53 slaine: Ask a QUESTION:? (I guess to allow MeeGo user space to run on deb-based OSes like Ubuntu Netbook Remix etc) Mar 31 20:49:01 Call it the beginning of the inofficial MeeGo Trolls Working Group. Mar 31 20:49:20 woot leslie is jumping ship from google Mar 31 20:49:21 Jaffa: thats what I thought it was about Mar 31 20:49:21 you can't do that Mar 31 20:49:24 people seem to not understand that there is a HUGE difference between .deb format and being able to interact packaging wise with debian distros Mar 31 20:49:25 Jaffa: If they need that they can just build MeeGo UX for in the Ubuntu repos Mar 31 20:49:25 the name Trolls is reserved Mar 31 20:49:26 jusliukk: We're aware of the theory; and there's been no comment as to what repos would have what privileges granted to them Mar 31 20:49:26 :-P Mar 31 20:49:31 thiago_home: :P Mar 31 20:49:39 jaffa, good to know :) Mar 31 20:49:47 but it seems to be aboubt having a .deb rebuild of meego proper Mar 31 20:49:50 * lbt wonders about the "stigma" of being seen to support the Debian WG... Mar 31 20:49:59 lbt: ::) Mar 31 20:50:07 I think it is nuts... Mar 31 20:50:08 milliams: And what if there wants to be coordination with upstream releases? Mar 31 20:50:13 but they should be allowed to do it Mar 31 20:50:15 ;) lbt Mar 31 20:50:16 having .deb does make it an easier upgrade path for existing maemo devices.. however beyond that i dont see much point Mar 31 20:50:29 Clay: that is mostly fiction Mar 31 20:50:30 lbt: of course they are *allowed* Mar 31 20:50:32 uh.. Mar 31 20:50:32 heh Mar 31 20:50:37 Clay: IT's going to have to be a clean wipe for installs anyway. Mar 31 20:50:41 Clay: the upgrade path only works if the packaging rules/names/etc are also compatible Mar 31 20:50:41 Clay: not really. you install a new system and you're done with it. besides, most application is already packaged for meego due to moblin/fedora Mar 31 20:50:45 from reading the proposal it seems that the idea is to add a debian/ folder to all the Core MeeGo packages Mar 31 20:50:45 lbt: nobody is going to stop them from doing what they want to do Mar 31 20:50:46 just the format is not good enough Mar 31 20:50:58 thus you'll get a ".deb MeeGo" (ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin) Mar 31 20:50:58 lbt: I do wonder what a WG is supposed to achieve at this point though Mar 31 20:51:03 not a "Debian MeeGo". Mar 31 20:51:05 interesting... Mar 31 20:51:10 RPM is proven o.O Mar 31 20:51:21 (I'm not sure what to #info) Mar 31 20:51:24 SuSE, Fedora, Mandriva ... Mar 31 20:51:37 lets please not get into an actual format war again Mar 31 20:51:39 I prefer my approach with pkg-meego on debian.org anyway. Mar 31 20:51:41 arjan: Agree about the structure, but if not a WG then what? The governance structure seems to be: TSG, WGs, projects and architects. Obviously maintaining the core repo is part of someone's job, but that's a much wider job when taking into account community apps *and* probably should have wider involvement/a process for community involvement. Mar 31 20:51:46 yeah.... I'm mainly interested in seeing if a Meego rpm/deb thing could be good for bringing cross-over between the formats Mar 31 20:52:09 arjan: Therefore, AIUI, a WG is the only answer - unless there's a section of the project which I'm either missing or hasn't been announced. Mar 31 20:52:28 IMHO the governance needs something between the TSG and the WGs... Mar 31 20:52:35 lbt: interesting also if you can get to autogenerate spec files and debian folders from, say, autoconfig-using "programs". Mar 31 20:52:35 we didn't get the project structure announced yet didn't we? Mar 31 20:52:36 * thiago_home discovers new shortcuts in irssi Mar 31 20:52:37 but in general, all tihsgovernance is slightly confusing ... Mar 31 20:52:45 Jaffa: the TSG I think said that too.. they just wanted more details in the proposal Mar 31 20:52:45 Stskeeps: just the stuff that's on meego.com already Mar 31 20:52:48 * javispedro thinks about spectacle.. Mar 31 20:52:54 There seems to be a flow of "this'll be an emergent property of the project" on a couple of the WG proposals (i18n springs to mind) which seems... optimistic :-) Mar 31 20:53:00 javispedro: yes, exactly that kind of thing Mar 31 20:53:03 yeah, but was to get more info Mar 31 20:53:10 Jaffa: right now there is one WG to rule them all.... all one of them Mar 31 20:53:18 Stskeeps: True, I'm extrapolating from existing software projects, existing OSS projects and the stated desire to involve the community ;-) Mar 31 20:53:46 * lbt wonders what meegomesseng is doing in meego-questions... Mar 31 20:53:49 arjan: Indeed, I think I'm just trying to persuade people (i.e. you ;-)) ahead of time and/or work out where the obvious gaps are. Mar 31 20:54:43 he's rehashing Feb 15 Mar 31 20:54:57 lbt: he wears a "Press" vest. Mar 31 20:55:03 heh Mar 31 20:55:17 I'm not saying having .deb is bad. But having MeeGo support could create more division than help among the community in the long run. Anyway the packages will need to be built as RPMs. So it duplicate the efforts too. Mar 31 20:55:25 now thats what i call a PFO Mar 31 20:55:33 PFO? Mar 31 20:55:44 I am happy enough with packaging the UX for Debian and Ubuntu. Mar 31 20:55:57 ah :D yeah. Mar 31 20:55:57 slaine: 'please fuck off'? Mar 31 20:56:06 yes... Mar 31 20:56:11 conference! Mar 31 20:56:16 ah, good acronym Mar 31 20:56:19 almost, polite fuck off Mar 31 20:56:29 well, "polite" in the IRC sense Mar 31 20:56:47 I mean Imad's handling of it was a good example of a PFO Mar 31 20:56:48 in a non-IRC meeting it would seem like the infamous scene with neo and agent smith "what use is a phone call if you don't have... VOICE" Mar 31 20:57:06 hehe Mar 31 20:57:08 haha Mar 31 20:57:33 slaine: well realistically what else can you do? :) Mar 31 20:57:39 slaine: you either say yes, or you say no Mar 31 20:57:44 will there be successor of N900 declared in Meego conference? Mar 31 20:58:02 mh, I hope i'll be able to get some time off school for this conference, although I'd have to decide between the FUDCon and this conference first ... sucks. Mar 31 20:58:04 nod Mar 31 20:58:05 trumee: Nokia don't comment on future product plans. Mar 31 20:58:06 trumee: I doubt the nmeego conference is where nokia will announc products Mar 31 20:58:06 trumee: Meego doesn't make devices. Mar 31 20:58:17 trumee: uh... you want to know what will be announced at a conference? Mar 31 20:58:34 lool: I think the deb group should stay as close as possible - wait and see what the OBS brings Mar 31 20:58:40 if announcements about announcements were done, we wouldn't need the actual announcement Mar 31 20:58:42 * w00t_ wonders if trumee wandered into the wrong place by accident :-) Mar 31 20:58:56 * javispedro is tempted to ask about the "power user meeting". Mar 31 20:58:59 lbt: Yes; can't wait to see the first OBS and SDK drops Mar 31 20:59:04 lool: I can see the openSUSE OBS having a remote-link to the MeeGo OBS and you can package there ... :) Mar 31 20:59:13 eh that could work Mar 31 20:59:17 thiago_home: Do you watch the news at all? All it is these days is "So-and-so is expected to announce today that..." (well why do they need to bother effing announcing it then?!) Mar 31 20:59:23 also I wonder about the maemo community OBS too Mar 31 20:59:31 any screenshots of meego running on n900? Mar 31 20:59:37 lool: btw one thing was not clear to me Mar 31 20:59:43 Jaffa: if you want to know news about Nokia, read engadget.com Mar 31 20:59:48 best souce of Nokia news :-P Mar 31 20:59:50 arjan: Happy to clarify if I can Mar 31 20:59:52 (some of it is wrong) Mar 31 20:59:53 did you want to make .deb packages, or did you want to make something debian compatible/interactable Mar 31 20:59:58 hueg difference Mar 31 21:00:11 saltsa, seems to be just a terminal that works Mar 31 21:00:32 jusliukk, can one make phonecalls from terminal? ;) Mar 31 21:00:33 arjan: We want to enable the full stack for .deb as if this was the native format Mar 31 21:00:35 thiago_home: I'd rather not to ;-) Mar 31 21:00:36 Hold the meeting in Dublin, then I'll be able to attend :) Mar 31 21:00:43 saltsa_: yeah, it's just an xterm Mar 31 21:00:49 saltsa_: come back in a few months, I'd say Mar 31 21:00:53 slaine: i'm for frankfort :D Mar 31 21:00:59 lol Mar 31 21:01:06 there must be some place there to fit all the devs into, too. Mar 31 21:01:09 arjan: Make it as easy to build a MeeGo application .deb than a MeeGo application .rpm, or to maintain a MeeGo repository and buildds and ship images using dpkg internally Mar 31 21:01:21 lool: but this not give you a way to use debian packages or anything Mar 31 21:01:22 ugh Mar 31 21:01:27 what'd be the objective? Mar 31 21:01:50 arjan: The goal is to leverage the Debian technologies, tools, and software catalogs Mar 31 21:01:55 It sounds like a proposal for .debs just for the sake of it being based on .debs Mar 31 21:02:04 arjan: If you mean one can't install a package from debian.org on a MeeGo device, no indeed not Mar 31 21:02:05 * w00t_ agrees with slaine really Mar 31 21:02:07 you don't get the software catalogs etc if you just package as .deb Mar 31 21:02:21 arjan: But many packages will be rebuildable (perhaps without change) in MeeGo/.deb Mar 31 21:02:23 lool: you can't even take its debian/ directory Mar 31 21:02:43 apt-build is the yummy Mar 31 21:02:44 arjan: Well it depends of which packages you consider Mar 31 21:03:00 Too bad Jaffa's second question will have to wait.. Mar 31 21:03:07 wow 60 minutes and done... nevermind the outstanding Qs... :) Mar 31 21:03:12 * NishanthMenon groans at http://pastebin.mozilla.org/711909 Mar 31 21:03:17 aren't all the .deb tools obviated by the fact that we're using OBS Mar 31 21:03:25 slaine: nope Mar 31 21:03:26 arjan: But I do realize what you're saying, I'm a Debian and an Ubuntu developer and there are already some differences between the debian/ between the two, I also created Maemo .debs Mar 31 21:03:27 javispedro: I'll ask it on http://wiki.meego.com/Talk:MeeGo_Summit_2010 (snigger) Mar 31 21:03:34 how do I unsplit in irssi now? Mar 31 21:03:44 lool: meego is very differently structured, even in the very core Mar 31 21:03:50 I doubt you could reuse even a single package as is Mar 31 21:03:53 lbt: Yes; I'm not sure this is a really good approach, too bad if you are one of the last topics Mar 31 21:04:07 exactly. the differences between debian and ubuntu are... minor compared to the differences between meego and debian Mar 31 21:04:17 http://meego.mkdir.name/mirror/ for those interested, NishanthMenon Mar 31 21:04:23 (which even though I'm sure MeeGo team denies it, has a Fedora feeling over it ;) ) Mar 31 21:04:36 javispedro: it has a very RPM feeling over it ;-) Mar 31 21:04:42 s/feeling/fondling Mar 31 21:04:45 and yes we borrow various fedora packaging guidelines Mar 31 21:04:50 Note: The next TSG meeting will be one hour earlier to accommodate the recent time change: 19:00 UTC (Noon PST / 10pm Helsinki) Mar 31 21:04:51 Was it just me, who thought that most of the questions were answered like "Lets discuss it in mailing lists"? Then what's the point to bring themto TSG meeting? Mar 31 21:04:52 since theyd o make sense Mar 31 21:04:52 arjan: I can't really comment on that by just looking at the architecture diagram; we could go into specifics, but I don't think that makes any sense until we see a public SDK Mar 31 21:05:02 th0br0, thx.. 40 mins :) Mar 31 21:05:08 alexbez: better than 'no' Mar 31 21:05:11 there's some typo on the gitorious page ... # MeeGo Handset UX MeeGo Hanset User Experience Mar 31 21:05:13 arjan: I think not all of them can be explained by the use of RPM :P Mar 31 21:05:31 (but let's forget about this) Mar 31 21:05:48 lool: Acquiring RPM packaging skills can even help. Mar 31 21:05:57 yeah... discuss the RWG instead... Mar 31 21:06:05 juliank: and we have tools to help packaging Mar 31 21:06:30 lbt yes Mar 31 21:06:31 arjan: Do you mean tools to create spec files? Mar 31 21:06:37 juliank: yep Mar 31 21:06:39 create and maintain Mar 31 21:06:54 RWG: so can someone explain what the Moblin garage is if it isn't the same as Maemo garage? Mar 31 21:07:07 gcobb" moblin garage is basically .. how to say it Mar 31 21:07:10 an appstore without a store Mar 31 21:07:13 maemo.org/downloads Mar 31 21:07:15 lbt after thinking (with my past 00:00 muddled brain) it might be the the RWG should be tied to the actual structure of MeeGo Mar 31 21:07:21 arjan: Well, I prefer to write everything myself; and consider auto-generated parts of packaging to be bad. Mar 31 21:07:24 gcobb: seen http://garage.moblin.org/ ? Mar 31 21:07:39 so it would not be a WG, but part of the governance model Mar 31 21:07:41 juliank: then I think we have some disagreement, at least for about 75% of packages Mar 31 21:08:01 javispedro: I am looking at it, but I am still not sure I understand the goals Mar 31 21:08:02 arjan: common code != autogenerated Mar 31 21:08:05 tekojo: well, eventually it would be pretty high up... even possibly having some other wgs under its ruling Mar 31 21:08:10 juliank: for 75% of packages, packaging is very little more than boilerplate Mar 31 21:08:15 But I don't think that this RPM versus .deb discussion will lead anywhere Mar 31 21:08:31 lool: rpm vs deb has been done before here ;-) Mar 31 21:08:35 People have feelings and preferences, there is a lot of history to each Mar 31 21:08:45 why not make meego 1.0 with rpm base, and once we have that stable, consider a deb variant? Mar 31 21:08:48 gcobb: seems something like http://maemo.org/downloads/ Mar 31 21:08:51 th0br0 no, the model is not like that, wg:s have a place, but being in the structure removes that need Mar 31 21:08:52 lool: and to be very blunt about it, rpm and deb are VERY comparable in what you can do with them. it's mostly around preference/taste Mar 31 21:08:53 The point is: there is a huge amount of people and software for .deb Mar 31 21:08:54 Is Moblin garage somewhere to put ported apps from elsewhere? like the GPE apps, or KDE apps, or... Mar 31 21:09:06 well, yeah tekojo... that's what i meant more or less with that. Mar 31 21:09:14 And it should be possible to ship MeeGo with .debs, and allow people to ship MeeGo apps as .debs Mar 31 21:09:16 lool: the software is moot if there is no interoperability with that part of the deb universe Mar 31 21:09:20 it's just different to discern where there is need for a wg and where there isn't ... Mar 31 21:09:27 gcobb: basically Mar 31 21:09:27 tekojo: sorry, scouring backlog for comments to record Mar 31 21:09:32 gcobb, it's more like a maintained place where stable ports go in Mar 31 21:09:39 lool, so basically it's forking ? Mar 31 21:09:46 arjan: The actual packages are comparable in features, but the development workflow, available tools, and philosophies are quite different IMHO Mar 31 21:09:50 tekojo: not only ports I guess, if there was to be a "meego native" app? Mar 31 21:09:54 lool: Then make a fork thats deb based? Mar 31 21:09:56 gaveen: No; it's giving the choice Mar 31 21:10:08 lool: oh no argument... and those actually are reasons we picked rpm for meego Mar 31 21:10:10 javispedro right Mar 31 21:10:10 yes, I agree ... it could become more core... but it has to start somewhere and it gets people (ie non-employees) involved Mar 31 21:10:15 Clay: Forks are bad, and it would be considered a lesser MeeGo if done as a fork Mar 31 21:10:19 lool: Good RPM is better than the deb stuff I've seen on maemo.org Mar 31 21:10:32 juliank: That might be true Mar 31 21:10:37 juliank, agree 100% Mar 31 21:10:49 lool: would you say that by saying "but there are deb packaged apps that are not in rpm"... you then create a gap between the rpm meego and a hypothetical deb meego as well Mar 31 21:10:54 lbt but think of it, directly in core with community involved Mar 31 21:10:55 unless you also commit to conver that to rpm as well Mar 31 21:10:58 oh, anything is better than the "freedoms" we take in maemo packaging ;) Mar 31 21:11:02 lool: Well thats the only alternative. They decided on RPM. They're going with RPM. Mar 31 21:11:08 tekojo: I'd take that Mar 31 21:11:36 does the meego n900 image have a working modem stack? Mar 31 21:11:42 lbt so would I, now some prodding the ice with a stick Mar 31 21:11:46 the point about the support/non-support was supposed to aid in positioning Meego to other vendors too :) Mar 31 21:11:52 arjan: I could flip that argument by saying that if there's a gap and we can't offer .deb support in MeeGo upstream, then it's going to be an issue to ship .deb based MeeGo images, even as forks Mar 31 21:11:56 whats the advantages of going with rpm or deb? Mar 31 21:12:10 tripzero: I doubt it Mar 31 21:12:11 this horse is dead. move on. Mar 31 21:12:13 Clay: I think we can come up with intermediate contributions Mar 31 21:12:26 The thing I worry about is the per-vendor app store concept, instead of a common one. Mar 31 21:12:29 Clay, the horse will never die, but move on anyway? Mar 31 21:12:35 alden: there is very very little difference Mar 31 21:12:41 juliank: yes ... I'm trying to address that too Mar 31 21:12:50 arjan: yeah im trying to find out what tho.. Mar 31 21:12:52 alden: especially since you don't have interoperability with packaging universes for either side Mar 31 21:12:53 tripzero: we had ofono going, needed closed binaries, newer ofono doesnt Mar 31 21:12:58 Clay: other projects such as GNOME aren't specific to a packaging technology (package manager neutral); I realize it's not a part of their software stack, but still they manage to remain neutral Mar 31 21:13:01 tripzero: so there is hope Mar 31 21:13:05 tripzero: people are trying to revive it? it was killed in the meeting. But yes, move on anyway Mar 31 21:13:13 (the myth that if you are .deb you can use debian packages is just false... that only works if you are actually structured like debian) Mar 31 21:13:19 juliank: This will live on Mar 31 21:13:32 arjan: that, to me, was a mistake Mar 31 21:13:36 lool: Gnome isn't a distribution. Mar 31 21:13:42 juliank: The most downstream software distributor has interest in hosting the store bits and keeping the associated added value Mar 31 21:13:59 not the packaging... the making it hard to use the packaging effort of other distros Mar 31 21:14:06 lool: You just need to view MeeGo as two projects instead of something like GNOME. Mar 31 21:14:10 Stskeeps, so i'ts missing the closed modem driver bits? Mar 31 21:14:12 by making the packaging splits different Mar 31 21:14:17 lool: but maybe only for commercial apps? Mar 31 21:14:22 Clay: I wouldn't summarize MeeGo as a distribution Mar 31 21:14:32 gcobb: Up to them :) Mar 31 21:14:33 lool: you're wrong then Mar 31 21:14:35 * w00t_ wonders if we're back in day 0: packaging discussion! :D Mar 31 21:14:37 MeeGo *IS* a distribution Mar 31 21:14:39 .deb meego is not necessarily compatible with debian or ubuntu; ".deb maemo" is only compatible with around 50% of debian packages. Mar 31 21:14:43 Look, you' make mrshaver leave Mar 31 21:14:43 arjan: It's not *just* a distribution Mar 31 21:14:45 lool: i'd say it is Mar 31 21:14:54 give it a rest Mar 31 21:15:05 lool: most distributions also do upstream tech development. so do we Mar 31 21:15:16 tripzero: by our cut time we didn't include it cos of too much closed stuff - you should be able to build ofono git fine and work without :) Mar 31 21:15:32 I mean: I think there will be multiple app stores: the device manufacturers' but also the core MeeGo one for apps which only depend on MeeGo core Mar 31 21:15:41 lbt: Question about content now asked on http://wiki.meego.com/Talk:MeeGo_Summit_2010#Content - will ask on meego-community when appropriate Mar 31 21:15:51 :) Mar 31 21:16:05 gcobb: I keep asking that Mar 31 21:16:12 arjan: MeeGo is an upstream (software project) and its own downstream (distribution). Mar 31 21:16:28 I asked in the meeting when Meego was announced iirc Mar 31 21:16:39 unrelated: anyone else thinks that this arch diagram is barely readable? less web 2.0 and more svg could help there ... Mar 31 21:16:40 arjan: Would I present MeeGo to anyone, I would mention development of new software as one of its key missions, with the distribution side of things being one item on the stack Mar 31 21:16:48 juliank: in that definiton, fedora is too, as is suse Mar 31 21:16:50 And to me it certainly seems replaceable Mar 31 21:17:12 lool: I don't think that characterization is right Mar 31 21:17:14 While if I consider Fedora or Ubuntu, their main goals isn't to write new software -- even if they do write some Mar 31 21:17:35 how about someone suggesting right about now for a .rpm based Maemo? :D Mar 31 21:17:38 meego is an operating system with an objective, and we'll develop all the pieces that don't exist yet Mar 31 21:17:39 arjan: No, their developers develop things for upstream projects (kernel, gnome); but MeeGo develops much more for itself (UX, etc). Mar 31 21:17:57 juliank: fedora especially develops a WHOLE BUCH for themselves as well Mar 31 21:18:03 gaveen: .rpm has had "not-redhat based rpm distros" for much longer so they understand the issue better than us debianites Mar 31 21:18:04 and so does suse Mar 31 21:18:25 juliank: even ubuntu develops some tech Mar 31 21:18:32 (yes others pick it up as well, but still) Mar 31 21:18:36 arjan: no good one though :P Mar 31 21:18:39 juliank, lool... Isn't it that Meego isn't in the desktop space - so it's using relatively unknown apps Mar 31 21:19:03 lbt: No, MeeGo creates apps. Mar 31 21:19:15 aswell Mar 31 21:19:18 lbt: I think it is spending more resources on new software development than the typical integrator Mar 31 21:19:32 lool: if you consider "ubuntu" teh typical integrator, sure Mar 31 21:19:34 yes.... by necessity though Mar 31 21:19:37 but not if you consider RH or such Mar 31 21:19:48 distro is more than just integrator Mar 31 21:20:07 it's delivering an integrated whole by combining existing open source software and developing the rest to fill the gaps Mar 31 21:20:16 let's call it a "project". Mar 31 21:20:17 :) Mar 31 21:20:25 arjan, wow, that's just what I said to my CEO this morning Mar 31 21:20:35 Is my moblin netbook bugged ? Mar 31 21:20:38 xD slaine Mar 31 21:20:42 * lbt wonders what you'd see looking at how much RH spent per deployment over the first 2 years cf MeeGo over it's first 2 years Mar 31 21:20:43 all your kernel are belong to us Mar 31 21:21:05 lbt: not sure you can really compare that Mar 31 21:21:11 I don't want to go into comparing numbers or distro behaviors Mar 31 21:21:15 fedora is rather young, only 5 years old iirc, red hat existed before that Mar 31 21:21:22 I had enough of a .deb versus .rpm flamewar for tonight Mar 31 21:21:33 hehe me too Mar 31 21:21:40 and I need to get up to go to the bloody airport in 4 hours Mar 31 21:21:43 of course not - but it gives you an idea of degree of spend Mar 31 21:21:46 so I really ought to try to get some sleep Mar 31 21:21:47 arjan: heh Mar 31 21:22:00 * auke takes over from arjan Mar 31 21:22:04 …so i guess it would be rude to wonder why the security parts came with dpkg included..? ;) Mar 31 21:22:18 I hope the MeeGo project will accept people with .deb hats to contribute; let's see what we can technically offer to move this forward Mar 31 21:22:18 hey mr bootchart! Mar 31 21:22:22 oh… sleep Mar 31 21:22:24 gn8 arjan_zzzz Mar 31 21:22:26 i wish I could Mar 31 21:22:29 hi David :) Mar 31 21:22:32 :) Mar 31 21:22:44 is it "let's gang up on auke" day today? Mar 31 21:22:45 hope that wasn't too harsh for a day-1 email Mar 31 21:22:47 * w00t_ rubs hands Mar 31 21:22:49 NishanthMenon: why can't you? Mar 31 21:22:51 Slaap lekker! Mar 31 21:22:59 eeh anaZ why can't you ^^ Mar 31 21:23:25 th0br0, about the git clone? no idea.. just dumps me no data.. assuming coz the network is getting hammered Mar 31 21:23:34 huh NishanthMenon? Mar 31 21:23:37 * arjan_zzzz is still amuzed by someone who just wrote "bootchart2" that someone reimplemented bootchart Mar 31 21:23:38 ;) Mar 31 21:23:46 s//complaining/ Mar 31 21:23:57 goodnight folks Mar 31 21:24:05 arjan_zzzz: that's not a valid regexp :P Mar 31 21:24:09 auke: got to admit mmeeks positioned things .... Mar 31 21:24:21 aah you meant after "bootchart" :D k Mar 31 21:24:27 th0br0: it is... it just segfaulted Mar 31 21:24:30 th0br0, i wondered if you pinged me on my pastebin Mar 31 21:24:38 NishanthMenon: huh? no. Mar 31 21:24:41 lbt: haha, ok. Mar 31 21:24:55 s/haha/ohoh/ Mar 31 21:24:56 th0br0 meant: lbt: ohoh, ok. Mar 31 21:25:43 anyway, i'm going to follow the zZz now, too. Mar 31 21:25:48 night Mar 31 21:25:50 talk to you tomorrow Mar 31 21:25:54 night Mar 31 21:25:59 yeah, time I knocked off too Mar 31 21:26:03 th0br0, gnite Mar 31 21:26:07 I've to be up in 5 hours Mar 31 21:26:11 gnite everyone Mar 31 21:26:18 nighty night Mar 31 21:26:21 Someone successfully installed Meego into N900? Mar 31 21:26:23 thanks DawnFoster Mar 31 21:26:37 teronuppi: I have no doubt that a few people have. I hope you understand what MeeGo currently is, though :) Mar 31 21:26:47 teronuppi: see: http://wiki.meego.com/ARM Mar 31 21:27:11 * lbt goes back to his dbus/OBS integration... Mar 31 21:27:18 lbt: fun fun! Mar 31 21:27:29 it's like RSS on steroids Mar 31 21:27:34 would like to see some screenshots :) Mar 31 21:27:45 teronuppi: of a terminal? Mar 31 21:27:47 teronuppi: there is only one Mar 31 21:27:50 imagine twm, only without twm Mar 31 21:27:51 of a terminal :-) Mar 31 21:29:33 oh.. thought it would have been developed a bit longer :))) Mar 31 21:29:55 well, I'll wait... Mar 31 21:35:30 lbt: mmeeks and me get along really well, he actually is not interested in maintaining bootchart programs in the long run Mar 31 21:36:43 when I read his email - the concepts he puts forward are really important. Sadly bootchart's position is 100% defensible. Mar 31 21:37:18 lbt: of course. there's nothing wrong trying to make me and mmeeks work together Mar 31 21:38:00 lbt: but, don't forget, most of my work was done roughly at the same time mmeeks started with bootchart2 Mar 31 21:38:34 yeah - and it's a few lines of C ... frankly I felt bad about the emails.. :) Mar 31 21:38:42 however... NIH is something that tends to come from teams that work inside orgs - and I'd like to see it rejected more Mar 31 21:39:15 in this case, NIH is not so relevant, since the need internally here for a tool that doesn't need python or java was the biggest issue Mar 31 21:39:17 although greg kh made some points and michael commented on granularity Mar 31 21:39:33 yeah, I fully accept I was wrong about that Mar 31 21:39:56 taskstats are something I did look at, but deemed not needed for what was asked Mar 31 21:40:01 we can revisit Mar 31 21:40:28 nite all, sweet dreams Mar 31 21:40:37 high resolution data may not be relevant Mar 31 21:40:42 does the the data come out in non-svg format too ? Mar 31 21:41:02 the svg contains machine-parseble data Mar 31 21:41:20 so, we can put in anything in there we want Mar 31 21:41:40 and do all processes get caught? the lo-res doesn't impact that? Mar 31 21:42:10 no, we don't catch processes that exist in between two sample times Mar 31 21:42:20 for those, arjan wrote timechart Mar 31 21:42:33 which goes beyond bootchart's capabilities Mar 31 21:42:42 I used to use it for diagnostics to see where things came from ... spawn trees Mar 31 21:42:51 or fork trees Mar 31 21:43:14 (when setting up my mythtv diskless box :) ) Mar 31 21:43:26 bootchart wasn't meant for that granularity Mar 31 21:43:48 for me, it's like sticking a thermometer in the turkey and reading "done" or "not done" Mar 31 21:44:09 sure - if it doesn't show up it's fast enough!! Mar 31 21:44:20 yes, that's the idea Mar 31 21:44:30 originally I had my bootchart sample 50x per second Mar 31 21:44:48 but that seemed a bit too much, and not needed to catch most of the data anyway Mar 31 21:44:51 I guess that hints at the idea that whilst it solves the Meego problem.. it would be nice to support solving other problems too :) Mar 31 21:45:22 but... decisions and resources.... I know Mar 31 21:46:38 * w00t_ is tempted to say 'patches welcome', but remembers that lbt is in the same country and decides he can't run fast enough Mar 31 21:46:49 heh Mar 31 21:47:00 I can throw hard from here... Mar 31 21:47:11 can you throw patches? Mar 31 21:47:28 ... not well, they miss Mar 31 21:47:43 do you actually code? :) Mar 31 21:47:53 kinda Mar 31 21:47:54 He does better. He hacks (and docs) Mar 31 21:48:02 ooo Mar 31 21:48:05 And drinks. Mar 31 21:48:13 I do not drink! Mar 31 21:48:15 much Mar 31 21:48:24 Ditto. Mar 31 21:48:27 Honest. Mar 31 21:48:36 auke: http://wiki.maemo.org/Mer/Build/UsingGitorious Mar 31 21:48:43 I'm a social drinker. if you take a drink, soshall I Mar 31 21:48:47 :) Mar 31 21:48:57 auke: best approach, tbh Mar 31 21:49:03 where in the world are you auke? Mar 31 21:49:09 * thiago_home sees someone suggested Oslo for the MeeGo Summit/Conference Mar 31 21:49:18 no, no, no, you don't want to come to Oslo... Mar 31 21:49:23 well, I used to call The Netherlands home Mar 31 21:49:28 now it's more like Oregon Mar 31 21:49:45 *nod* Mar 31 21:49:46 same weather Mar 31 21:49:48 less flat Mar 31 21:50:04 my point was price Mar 31 21:50:15 yeah... Holland was cheap Mar 31 21:50:39 auke: let me know if you're int to Helsinki on a monday... Mar 31 21:50:42 Oslo would rock anyway, but I'm kind of biased, I want to go there! :P Mar 31 21:50:50 price of beer at a regular pub (0.6 L): 6.20 € / $ 8.40 Mar 31 21:50:59 eek Mar 31 21:51:22 'nuff said Mar 31 21:51:22 * lbt drinks cocktails so that would be even worse! Mar 31 21:51:35 thiago_home: i take it you don't go out drinking often then :) Mar 31 21:51:41 just on payday Mar 31 21:51:56 we get enough for rent and 3 beers Mar 31 21:52:00 haha Mar 31 21:52:22 * w00t_ needs to go for a drink next week, purely for social purposes Mar 31 21:53:17 lbt: I'm lucky enough Mar 31 21:53:30 lbt: I'm not important enough to get sent to hell^Hsinki Mar 31 21:53:59 heh ... it's my short commute from London Mar 31 21:55:43 hey, thiago_home, I've been looking for a signal/slot solution for python and you may know one .... (I've been using louie) Mar 31 21:55:59 did someone already manage to install meego on the n900? Mar 31 21:56:48 jatt: we're at the point where it's a good idea to know someone with a nokia hardware reflasher before trying... Mar 31 21:56:48 jatt: more than likely. see http://wiki.meego.com/ARM Mar 31 21:57:00 jatt: make sure you read the top part carefully. Mar 31 21:57:23 ... but feel free to toast your expensive phone in order to run a terminal... :) Mar 31 21:57:36 s//potentially/ Mar 31 21:58:08 I see. so it's dangerous to try it out? Mar 31 21:58:35 it is potentially dangerous, and it doesn't have much to offer Mar 31 21:58:36 I'm not trying it on day 1. Mar 31 21:58:41 I see Mar 31 21:58:43 ^ Mar 31 21:58:54 if you're an app developer, I'd wait a month or two Mar 31 21:59:34 * javispedro notes that Fedora is the MeeGo dev platform of choice Mar 31 21:59:48 lool: you package louie? Mar 31 22:05:30 lbt: I used to, was a rdep I needed Mar 31 22:05:44 It's under DPMT Mar 31 22:05:46 I'm just after some docs/examples... Mar 31 22:06:30 lbt: You could check moovida or coherence? Mar 31 22:06:31 I'm newish to python Mar 31 22:06:43 OK... I'd seen coherence uses it Mar 31 22:07:18 Well coherence even has a builting copy :-( Mar 31 22:07:47 * lool bed & Mar 31 22:07:52 night - ta Mar 31 22:08:34 me too .... night all. Mar 31 22:09:01 cyas Mar 31 22:14:01 hey guys Mar 31 22:14:02 I have a proposal for GSoC, please take a look here: http://v6sa.itcollege.ee/wiki/?page=tx-mobile Mar 31 22:14:17 I am very much interested in feedback! Mar 31 22:24:25 anyone got a link to the meeting transcript from today Mar 31 22:30:30 anotnac: I guess this is what you are looking for. http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-31-19.58.log.txt Mar 31 22:34:09 long long long download... finish before meego2 ? Mar 31 23:20:47 is there any word on what input framework MeeGo will be using? Mar 31 23:21:21 harmattan at least has its own one Mar 31 23:21:32 part of dui iirc Mar 31 23:21:44 (source is on gitoriouououous) Apr 01 00:12:40 so... that one nokia image wouldnt run on a 800 by chance would it? Apr 01 00:12:56 Tenkawa: See Stskeeps' post about it ;-) Apr 01 00:13:06 ok.. Apr 01 00:13:07 thanks Apr 01 00:14:01 Tenkawa: http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p=590311&postcount=16 Apr 01 00:14:04 got a ponter? Apr 01 00:14:05 thanks Apr 01 00:14:08 er pointer Apr 01 00:14:14 Took a while to dig it up Apr 01 00:14:20 Sign I should go to bed. Apr 01 00:14:22 yeah I had tried the search on meego.com with no hits so thanks Apr 01 00:15:04 well.. if the 810 works it "possibly" could on the 800 Apr 01 00:16:19 it would probably be pretty slow though Apr 01 00:17:11 xterm? Apr 01 00:17:36 javispedro: eh? Apr 01 00:17:58 Tenkawa: that Nokia image boots to a xterm Apr 01 00:18:14 javispedro: ahhhh Apr 01 00:18:24 blah... Apr 01 00:18:29 I'll keep diablo Apr 01 00:19:33 thanks for the info all Apr 01 00:20:41 night monkeys Apr 01 00:24:34 How'd day 1 go? Apr 01 00:24:49 Well, the meeting was the usual.. uh... how to say. Apr 01 00:25:22 * javispedro decides to shut :) Apr 01 00:25:35 im a bit confused, how am i to run these http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/n900/images/ Apr 01 00:25:50 from maemo5 just execute one of those or Apr 01 00:25:57 do i have to modify some bootloader Apr 01 00:26:00 to boot into it Apr 01 00:26:01 http://wiki.meego.com/ARM Apr 01 00:26:24 very well Apr 01 00:26:27 :) Apr 01 00:26:54 that should be linked in the dl page Apr 01 00:27:16 or suppose i should have looked at the wiki :P Apr 01 00:28:23 reading the warnings on the native install page makes me leave this at this point, haha Apr 01 00:28:30 dont wanna brick my n900 Apr 01 00:28:53 if all you use your phone for is run xterm... the meego stuff is brilliant ;) Apr 01 00:29:01 it's really good at that. Apr 01 00:29:01 GAN900: and you get to say all those TMOers that the MeeGo build only boots to an xterm! Apr 01 00:29:46 arjan_zzzz: can you tell, when there is a proper release with ui and stuff, do i still have to remove/flash my maemo5 and put meego there Apr 01 00:29:55 like i cant dualboot when its done Apr 01 00:30:00 there's the chroot method Apr 01 00:30:09 if you google n900 and dual boot you find many articles Apr 01 00:30:12 some less true than others Apr 01 00:30:24 right, so its possible Apr 01 00:30:29 good to know Apr 01 00:30:49 quite interested in this but dont wanna make my phone unusable Apr 01 00:30:57 i guess it can always be flashed back to maemo5 Apr 01 00:31:05 sounds like some work anyways Apr 01 00:31:47 i wonder if nokia will give the "ok" to install meego, like warranty and stuff if you brick your device :P Apr 01 00:31:58 hahaha doubt it Apr 01 00:32:18 yeah, so whos ever gonna put this in but developers Apr 01 00:32:22 if that doesent happen Apr 01 00:32:37 you can use it on a netbook too Apr 01 00:32:45 bit easier around the warranty Apr 01 00:32:54 sure, but talking spesificly the n900 Apr 01 00:33:08 all the blogs and sites talk how this is for the n900 replacing maemo6 Apr 01 00:33:23 but if there is no proper installer coming to "upgrade my os to meego safely" Apr 01 00:33:28 whats the hype for :P Apr 01 00:33:50 meh should go to sleep Apr 01 00:34:07 no, this doesn't replace maemo6... Apr 01 00:34:33 right, i tought the projects merged and maemo6 is out Apr 01 00:34:46 * arjan_zzzz did not think maemo6 was released yet Apr 01 00:35:17 i mean replacing in the sense that its not done anymore and meego will be released Apr 01 00:35:31 but im sure im missinformed about this :) Apr 01 00:36:04 just hope there would be a pop up on my N900 some day "update to meego/maemo6 os" which ever :) Apr 01 00:36:19 dont really care if it takes 2 months or 2 years Apr 01 00:36:33 when its done Apr 01 02:20:26 is there a mirror up of the meego images somewhere? Apr 01 02:33:58 anyone got a better mirror for the meego image downloads? Apr 01 02:34:18 m2 seems to be broken:( Apr 01 02:42:13 is anyone else having trouble with the meego-codedrop-arm-n900-201003311626.tar.gz ? Apr 01 02:42:20 I get tar: invalid tar magic Apr 01 02:42:24 while extracting ... Apr 01 02:42:46 Pretty sure I have all of it, but I don't see a list of checksums to compare against **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 01 02:59:57 2010