**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Apr 02 02:59:57 2010
Apr 02 03:01:02 <_Sky_> i try updating all packages including xorg now
Apr 02 03:05:04 <vaughan__> ARM9 400MHZ cpu is enough for meego?
Apr 02 04:50:41 <colonelqubit> "You are not authorized to access bug #269," ditto for #270. Are these security bugs? Or is bugzilla just confused?
Apr 02 04:52:46 <RST38h> you are just not worthy
Apr 02 04:56:56 <colonelqubit> RST38h: :-)
Apr 02 04:59:21 <colonelqubit> Any other "forbidden" bugs out there?
Apr 02 05:08:14 <colonelqubit> Wow. Between bugs 1-300 I count 121 that I'm not authorized to view
Apr 02 05:08:22 <colonelqubit> That's nearly half...
Apr 02 05:10:50 <Stskeeps> colonelqubit: i'd raise an issue about that
Apr 02 05:10:57 <Stskeeps> if it's bugzilla.meego.com
Apr 02 05:13:35 <Stskeeps> 121 is a litttle too many to be counted as security bugs
Apr 02 05:16:40 <colonelqubit> Stskeeps: yeah, that's bugzilla.meego.com
Apr 02 05:17:41 <Stskeeps> another thought could be unpublished roadmap requirements being set up for release
Apr 02 05:20:46 <Stskeeps> colonelqubit: either way, please raise the issue on meego-dev@. best way to get transparency is by pointing out those areas that are not.
Apr 02 05:21:47 <colonelqubit> Stskeeps, yep, I will
Apr 02 05:21:58 <Stskeeps> thanks
Apr 02 05:22:33 <Stskeeps> it might just be test bugs that were deleted, though
Apr 02 05:23:10 <colonelqubit> not all of them
Apr 02 05:23:57 * Stskeeps nods
Apr 02 05:24:09 <colonelqubit> Bug 176 is blocked by 269, and I'm not authorized to see the latter one. (http://bugzilla.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=176)
Apr 02 05:25:09 <Stskeeps> yeah, you're right
Apr 02 05:25:18 <Stskeeps> time for a well meaning mail then :)
Apr 02 05:25:22 * Stskeeps goes get breakfast
Apr 02 05:42:57 <ameng> rpm is shit
Apr 02 05:44:35 <Stskeeps> did you try it recently?
Apr 02 05:44:46 <Stskeeps> also, 7:40am, a bit too early for this discussion
Apr 02 05:45:41 <Surfa> depends on where you're living
Apr 02 05:48:42 * GAN900 chuckles at all of the restricted bugs.
Apr 02 05:48:46 <GAN900> Open indeed.
Apr 02 05:48:53 <GAN900> Betterer and betterer
Apr 02 05:53:00 <Stskeeps> let's see what their answer is though
Apr 02 05:53:22 <Stskeeps> maybe there's a faulty default policy
Apr 02 07:32:16 <Stskeeps> i'm probably going to hell for grabbing meego rpms for most other stuff, except for the xserver 1.6 from moblin 2.1 :P
Apr 02 07:45:40 <dneary> hi
Apr 02 07:45:45 <Stskeeps> lo dneary
Apr 02 07:46:08 <Stskeeps> had a good birthday?
Apr 02 07:46:36 <lbt> morning dneary
Apr 02 07:47:54 <dneary> Salut Stskeeps, lbt
Apr 02 07:47:59 <dneary> Very nice, thanks
Apr 02 07:48:08 <dneary> Although I'll be celebrating it this weekend
Apr 02 07:49:53 * Stskeeps takes a look at TSG meeting minutes
Apr 02 07:52:19 <Terje> Stskeeps, got an URL?
Apr 02 07:52:29 <Terje> :s/an/a/
Apr 02 07:52:51 <Stskeeps> http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-03-31-19.58.html
Apr 02 07:53:34 <Stskeeps> i'm looking forward to the underlying wg's starting meetings as well, so people can ask more targetted questions there..
Apr 02 07:54:05 <Terje> Stskeeps, thanks.
Apr 02 08:09:29 <lbt> auke: "the best platform to develop MeeGo on will be MeeGo itself" ... please don't make MeeGo any "better" than any other platform.
Apr 02 08:09:53 <anttu> i wanted to have a peek on meego and dd'd the usbimg to a usb stick, but i get "missing operating system"
Apr 02 08:10:06 <lbt> Self-hosting is admirable and important. "Required" for *anything* would be a huge mistake.
Apr 02 08:10:16 <anttu> is there instructions how to make the usb stick right
Apr 02 08:10:44 <anttu> (atom version)
Apr 02 08:12:24 * thiago prefers cross-compiling from the comfort of his preferred Linux distribution
Apr 02 08:14:31 <zhuyanhai> anttu: did you dd to something like /dev/sdb or /dev/sdb{number}?
Apr 02 08:15:06 <anttu> whoops, i used sdb1
Apr 02 08:15:09 <lbt> thiago: kick and scream about it ;)
Apr 02 08:15:13 <anttu> i think that is my mistake
Apr 02 08:15:40 <thiago> I don't intend on abiding by any decision that isn't the most comfortable one for me
Apr 02 08:15:40 <anttu> more coffee needed
Apr 02 08:15:55 <thiago> if it doesn't work, I'll just deploy my own SDK
Apr 02 08:16:18 <Stskeeps> thiago: so, what is your ideal setup?
Apr 02 08:16:30 <thiago> cross-compiling from Creator
Apr 02 08:16:36 <thiago> and a compiler I can use in the compile farm
Apr 02 08:16:40 <Stskeeps> which uses what as backend? a toolchan and a sysroot?
Apr 02 08:16:45 <Stskeeps> +i
Apr 02 08:16:49 <thiago> toolchain and sysroot
Apr 02 08:16:58 <Stskeeps> :nod:
Apr 02 08:17:23 <Stskeeps> how about packaging then? not in your scope?
Apr 02 08:18:28 <thiago> no
Apr 02 08:19:20 <thiago> I don't need packaging. I make lousy applications.
Apr 02 08:30:43 * Stskeeps tries booting meego on his joggler
Apr 02 08:31:12 <Stskeeps> woo
Apr 02 08:31:15 <Stskeeps> "Welcome to Meego"
Apr 02 08:31:21 <Stskeeps> also, isn't that supposed to be MeeGo
Apr 02 08:37:35 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Cool :-)
Apr 02 08:37:55 <Jaffa> I was going to ask, what with a Joggler coming, whether the Mer efforts will be rewarded with Mer^x or MeeGo
Apr 02 08:38:01 <anttu> zhuyanhai: changing sdb1 to sdb did the trick, thanks
Apr 02 08:38:42 <anttu> login, password?
Apr 02 08:38:44 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: i'm planning to put MeeGo on it as it is a developer device for me
Apr 02 08:39:16 <anttu> got it
Apr 02 08:39:42 <Stskeeps> Jaffa: i'm pursuing some different angles with mer^2 one of which is recompiling the whole bloody thing for armv6+vfp :P
Apr 02 08:44:53 <robsta> morn'
Apr 02 08:46:50 * w00t_ kicks Stskeeps in the shin
Apr 02 08:47:29 <Tm_T> päivää, moin, K'day
Apr 02 08:47:37 <Stskeeps> w00t_: mm?
Apr 02 08:47:41 <w00t_> hi ;)
Apr 02 08:56:53 <zhuyanhai> anttu: you're welcome :)
Apr 02 08:57:14 <zhuyanhai> anttu: try meego as password?
Apr 02 08:59:20 <anttu> zhuyanhai: yes, i quessed it, thanks
Apr 02 09:25:32 <Stskeeps> woo
Apr 02 09:25:41 <Stskeeps> functionality wise, i now have joggler with a meego xterm ;)
Apr 02 09:26:04 <johnel> I have a couple of stupid(?) questions if that is ok?
Apr 02 09:26:22 <Stskeeps> shoot
Apr 02 09:26:41 <slaine> Stskeeps: cool
Apr 02 09:26:56 <slaine> How did you solve the PSB problem ?
Apr 02 09:27:11 <Stskeeps> slaine: in a really dirty way
Apr 02 09:27:18 <Stskeeps> trying to get GL to work now
Apr 02 09:27:25 <Stskeeps> grabbed xserver 1.6 from moblin 1.6 and installed it ;)
Apr 02 09:27:34 <Stskeeps> err, 2.1
Apr 02 09:27:36 <slaine> lol, was about to ask if that's what you did in the end
Apr 02 09:27:39 <robsta> johnel: irc rule #1: don't ask to ask, just ask
Apr 02 09:28:07 <johnel> OK, I have an n900 and looking at the architecture diagram on MeeGo and just want to know how much of this is included in the images (I know th gui stuff is missing, e.g how much middleware is included)
Apr 02 09:28:16 <Stskeeps> there's an Xterm on n900
Apr 02 09:28:17 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 09:28:23 <Stskeeps> go look in trunk what's there
Apr 02 09:29:06 <Chuck_> hi
Apr 02 09:29:56 <johnel> Told you it was stupid question! I was just curious if I can play with underlying components with xterm and dbus. Thanks
Apr 02 09:30:14 <Stskeeps> yeah
Apr 02 09:30:19 <Stskeeps> there's plenty to try and install
Apr 02 09:30:42 <robsta> johnel: probably easier to play with them on the desktop though, most should run
Apr 02 09:32:19 <Jaffa> Stskeeps: Mer^2 would be cool for the Joggler until MeeGo ramps up; having nokia-apps would be fun
Apr 02 09:34:52 <johnel> robsta: Do you mean install the image (e.g. use qemu) on my Linux laptop and poke about with MeeGo from there?
Apr 02 09:35:21 <robsta> johnel: it would be easier if you disclosed what components you're interested in
Apr 02 09:36:08 <robsta> easier to answer
Apr 02 09:37:54 <robsta> geoclue for example runs just fine on the desktop
Apr 02 09:39:44 <johnel> robsta: Basicallly my ultimate goal is have MeeGo installed on n900 and MeeGo installed on laptop (e.g. bootable usb key) and in theory run "identical" systems
Apr 02 09:40:02 <anttu> is there something rotten in the meego repositories?
Apr 02 09:41:48 <robsta> johnel: you can probably do that today and feel like 1970 without a gui
Apr 02 09:44:36 <anttu> yum update just give errors
Apr 02 09:49:01 <cyberkonsult> CosmoHill: Are You awake?
Apr 02 09:49:08 <CosmoHill> yes
Apr 02 09:49:22 <cyberkonsult> ah... progress on VirtualBox?
Apr 02 09:49:31 <CosmoHill> someone got it to work
Apr 02 09:49:41 <CosmoHill> I just got very angery and lef
Apr 02 09:49:43 <CosmoHill> left*
Apr 02 09:50:15 <cyberkonsult> k, I got the emergency shell through pci=off
Apr 02 09:50:17 <CosmoHill> http://sundtek.de/meego/index.txt
Apr 02 09:50:44 <cyberkonsult> after the pci probingstuff the kernel got a null dereference (null)
Apr 02 09:51:08 <cyberkonsult> So, where is the howto to get it working?
Apr 02 09:51:40 <anttu> what is the trick to get yum working?
Apr 02 09:51:58 <CosmoHill> i didn't think meego was going to use yum
Apr 02 09:52:40 <anttu> there is yum command and repos
Apr 02 09:56:57 <johnel> robsta: I was *born* in 1970!
Apr 02 09:57:28 <Stskeeps> slaine: i kinda wonder if there's anything stopping iegd people from making a meego 0.9 release though
Apr 02 09:57:46 <CosmoHill> iegd?
Apr 02 09:57:46 <Stskeeps> i mean, drivers are better than no drivers at all
Apr 02 09:57:53 <Stskeeps> intel embedded graphics drivers
Apr 02 09:58:11 <lbt> well, we can ask intel to ask the iegd people
Apr 02 09:58:28 <Stskeeps> i'd be perfectly happy with a tablets-dev.nokia.com like setup
Apr 02 09:58:32 <slaine> Stskeeps: well, once they get a new xserver compatible driver, I'll be ready :)
Apr 02 09:58:45 <CosmoHill> just wondering
Apr 02 09:59:03 <CosmoHill> say i made a virtualbox image of meego with a fedora kernel, would we be allowed to put that on the wiki?
Apr 02 09:59:17 <CosmoHill> or would fedora beat me up?
Apr 02 10:01:27 <robsta> CosmoHill: beat you up in the name of freedom?
Apr 02 10:05:57 <CosmoHill> help if i download the right rpm
Apr 02 10:06:17 <CosmoHill> and using ethernet instead of wireless gives me a 100KB/s boost :)
Apr 02 10:20:10 <alden> CosmoHill: hey :)
Apr 02 10:20:15 <CosmoHill> hi
Apr 02 10:20:22 <alden> CosmoHill: any luck with running meego in VB?
Apr 02 10:22:00 <CosmoHill> if I can't get it working in the next 39 mins I'm giving up
Apr 02 10:22:27 <alden> CosmoHill: i created a vdi, and set VB's hard disk to the vdi image, but when i boot it frezes on 'kernel_thread_helper+0x6/0x10' message
Apr 02 10:22:39 <CosmoHill> that's what I get too with the default kernel
Apr 02 10:22:49 <alden> CosmoHill: what did you do post that?
Apr 02 10:23:13 <alden> CosmoHill: you compiled a custom kernel?
Apr 02 10:23:18 <CosmoHill> yes
Apr 02 10:23:25 <alden> what did you change?
Apr 02 10:23:26 <CosmoHill> the initrd was the biggest problem
Apr 02 10:24:23 <alden> CosmoHill: who got it to work?
Apr 02 10:24:27 <CosmoHill> nope
Apr 02 10:24:39 <CosmoHill> got it to drop into emergancy shell tho
Apr 02 10:25:36 <alden> CosmoHill: no, you said someone got it to work in VB..
Apr 02 10:25:49 <CosmoHill> i just got the emergancy shell in vm
Apr 02 10:29:26 <anttu> anybody got yum working in meego?
Apr 02 10:29:48 <Stskeeps> ARM, X86?
Apr 02 10:29:58 <anttu> atom
Apr 02 10:30:15 <Stskeeps> is your /etc/resolv.conf correct?
Apr 02 10:30:58 <anttu> at least ping nokia.com works ok
Apr 02 10:31:13 <anttu> so dns resolving works
Apr 02 10:39:01 <postmanPechkin> hi
Apr 02 10:40:07 <postmanPechkin> ;
Apr 02 10:41:35 <CosmoHill> hi
Apr 02 10:41:45 <CosmoHill> Stskeeps: have you booted meego?
Apr 02 10:42:12 <Stskeeps> on a atom device but not really as it is intended to be like
Apr 02 10:42:38 <mrec> CosmoHill: did you check this one: http://sundtek.de/meego/index.txt ?
Apr 02 10:42:42 <CosmoHill> yes
Apr 02 10:42:51 <CosmoHill> what did you change in initrd ?
Apr 02 10:43:02 <slaine> Ah mrec, you're markus, hey
Apr 02 10:43:13 <slaine> Glen Gray from Lincor here
Apr 02 10:43:16 <mrec> it's ubuntu initrd, the initscript just modified to mount the meego partition
Apr 02 10:43:32 <mrec> slaine: we should talk next week I got a bad call from Empia :P
Apr 02 10:43:41 <slaine> sure
Apr 02 10:43:45 <CosmoHill> mind if i package that into a .vdi and upload that to a server?
Apr 02 10:43:49 <mrec> think we can improve your situation
Apr 02 10:43:55 <slaine> padraig's off this week, so I'm not sure what's been happening
Apr 02 10:44:07 <slaine> we can talk next week
Apr 02 10:44:15 <mrec> CosmoHill: it's ubuntu stuff you can do whatever you want with it :) original ubuntu initrd + few changes in initscript
Apr 02 10:44:28 <CosmoHill> I just tried with the 9.04 and initrd
Apr 02 10:44:39 <mrec> I used 9.10
Apr 02 10:45:09 <mrec> slaine: did you see our new products? we have 100% supported devices now (I'm not with empia anymore but I have some products based on their chips)
Apr 02 10:45:20 <mrec> standby everything is there
Apr 02 10:45:28 <mrec> even RDS with FM radio :)
Apr 02 10:45:28 <slaine> mrec, padraig mentioned it alright
Apr 02 10:45:57 <mrec> slaine: http://sundtek.com/images/vivi.png
Apr 02 10:46:02 <slaine> We can talk about again, this isn't really the forum
Apr 02 10:46:08 <mrec> ya
Apr 02 10:46:34 <mrec> we also target meego
Apr 02 10:47:32 <CosmoHill> mrec: okay I've done your thing and updated the install boot options
Apr 02 10:47:44 <CosmoHill> (you only updated the live boot options)
Apr 02 10:49:53 <mrec> CosmoHill: I never tested anything else but since the gui is missing I wasn't really interested
Apr 02 10:50:05 <mrec> it's smarter to use the ubuntu kernel since it's better tested than the meego x86 kernel
Apr 02 10:50:28 <mrec> and I'm very sure that debian and ubuntu people are putting more work into maintainance than Intel or Nokia will ever do
Apr 02 10:50:32 <trumee> Just got my joggler from the O2 store :D
Apr 02 10:50:34 <CosmoHill> i think I've broken it anyway :(
Apr 02 10:50:58 <trumee> one day i will have meego running on it (fingers crossed)
Apr 02 10:50:58 <mrec> CosmoHill: you can just add /bin/sh to the initrd script in order to fall back to the console and continue manually with the setup
Apr 02 10:51:16 <mrec> once you have the setup completed automize it in the initscript
Apr 02 10:53:59 <CosmoHill> hmm
Apr 02 10:54:07 <CosmoHill> once I can get it to boot I'll just upload the vdi image
Apr 02 10:54:42 <mrec> ubuntu also has the advantage they aim at getting their stuff work wherever it's possible (in case of x86)
Apr 02 10:54:52 <mrec> so the kern is already patched up
Apr 02 10:56:30 <CosmoHill> yesterday i spent ages trying to get it to work and ran into all sorts of problems
Apr 02 10:56:46 <mrec> it took me around 30 minutes to fix it up like that
Apr 02 10:56:51 <CosmoHill> then you came up with a easy solution and I was "rawr ffs screw this"
Apr 02 10:56:53 <mrec> I do not have any good experience with redhat kernels
Apr 02 10:57:10 <alden> once ur able to boot to a console, how complicated is it to get an xserver installed and running?
Apr 02 10:57:34 <CosmoHill> 1.6 or newer?
Apr 02 10:57:45 <alden> are there video drivers in the tree?
Apr 02 10:57:51 <mrec> the current X server might be screwed for the 'virtual' hardware which is available in a virtual machine
Apr 02 10:57:57 <mrec> replace it with ubuntu and it will work hehe
Apr 02 10:58:06 <alden> CosmoHill: either?
Apr 02 10:58:14 <mrec> finally the smartest thing to do is to pick entire ubuntu and just take the Meego gui and you'll be set
Apr 02 10:58:20 <alden> sorry, i know too little
Apr 02 10:58:24 <CosmoHill> 1.6 you compile all of it in one go
Apr 02 10:58:33 <CosmoHill> 1.7 and later you compile easy part by itself
Apr 02 10:58:43 <CosmoHill> mrec: you son of a bitch it worked
Apr 02 10:59:21 <mrec> throw away redhat
Apr 02 10:59:34 <CosmoHill> I copied the kernel and initrd over from your tarball :)
Apr 02 10:59:50 <mrec> I know it works but what now? got a great console heh
Apr 02 11:00:02 <mrec> and yum which takes 5 seconds for displaying the help screen
Apr 02 11:00:12 <CosmoHill> who cares :p
Apr 02 11:00:15 <alden> got to a shell using a ubuntu kernel? nice :D
Apr 02 11:00:31 <mrec> alden: http://www.sundtek.de/meego/index.txt
Apr 02 11:01:10 <CosmoHill> gmm
Apr 02 11:01:24 <CosmoHill> I typed "shutdown -h now" and it's just sitting there
Apr 02 11:02:03 <alden> mrec: Im running the default meego kernel in VB.. it freezes halfway through boot.. not sure what to do next
Apr 02 11:02:25 <mrec> it's a waste of time to work with it since there's no gui in it
Apr 02 11:02:28 <CosmoHill> alden: lucky for you i got this working with mrec stuff just before lunch since that was my cutup time
Apr 02 11:03:53 <alden> CosmoHill: sweet :)
Apr 02 11:04:16 <alden> CosmoHill: u gonna put up the .vdi image?
Apr 02 11:04:43 <CosmoHill> what do you think people would perver more, a virtualbox bootable usbimg file or a pre-installed meego image?
Apr 02 11:05:08 <CosmoHill> erm
Apr 02 11:05:19 <CosmoHill> actually it looks like the boot install is broken
Apr 02 11:05:21 <alden> CosmoHill: its easy to create a vdi from a meego image right?
Apr 02 11:05:43 <CosmoHill> one mo
Apr 02 11:05:59 <alden> ofcourse
Apr 02 11:06:00 <mrec> CosmoHill: it never worked I think
Apr 02 11:06:06 <mrec> not even with the original version
Apr 02 11:06:17 <slaine> if you enable the extras repo you might be able to install the XFCE desktop
Apr 02 11:06:18 <CosmoHill> i saw that and bailed
Apr 02 11:06:25 <slaine> yum groupinstall "XFCE"
Apr 02 11:06:28 <CosmoHill> so people can only have the usbimg image
Apr 02 11:06:51 <mrec> intel and nokia invested all their money and hired a student who cobbled together this incomplete system within a half day probably
Apr 02 11:08:05 <thiago> expensive students
Apr 02 11:08:31 <alden> hehe
Apr 02 11:08:38 <thiago> you can see that the kernel was compiled on March 31
Apr 02 11:08:51 <CosmoHill> dammit
Apr 02 11:09:52 <Stskeeps> mrec: you're assuming trunk says anything about end architecture :P
Apr 02 11:11:11 <slaine> With OBS ist should be possible to compile it all every day
Apr 02 11:14:59 * CosmoHill compresses meego-iso.vdi
Apr 02 11:15:59 <mrec> CosmoHill: when you upload it please add a note to that sysimage.tar.gz howto..
Apr 02 11:16:37 <CosmoHill> sure
Apr 02 11:20:03 <CosmoHill> mrec: http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/readme.txt
Apr 02 11:20:06 <mrec> 2010-04-02 19:16:15 [957] initializing audio in audio processor
Apr 02 11:20:09 <mrec> ups
Apr 02 11:20:26 <mrec> great :)
Apr 02 11:20:38 <CosmoHill> cool
Apr 02 11:20:41 <CosmoHill> cos my english sucks :(
Apr 02 11:22:20 <CosmoHill> Note: the meego-iso.vdi image is about 206MB, if it is less than that it's
Apr 02 11:22:20 <CosmoHill> still uploading.
Apr 02 11:22:30 <mrec> I was wondering why just a few kb
Apr 02 11:22:30 <CosmoHill> *217
Apr 02 11:23:03 <CosmoHill> it's gonna take over an hour for it to upload
Apr 02 11:23:09 <CosmoHill> so keep guide until then :)
Apr 02 11:25:04 <CosmoHill> *quiet
Apr 02 11:25:07 <CosmoHill> duno why I said guide
Apr 02 11:27:33 <anttu> i got yum working
Apr 02 11:28:07 <anttu> just needed to enable and disable the right repos in /etc/yum repo files to get rid of errors
Apr 02 11:28:38 <anttu> there is 130 mb updates flowing in now
Apr 02 11:31:13 <CosmoHill> you're on a n900 aren't you?
Apr 02 11:37:46 <anttu> atom it is
Apr 02 11:44:54 <CosmoHill> anttu: and it installed fine?
Apr 02 11:47:59 <ohan> Hello, is it possible to upgrade moblin 2 to meego ?
Apr 02 11:48:05 <CosmoHill> no
Apr 02 11:48:20 <ohan> oki, thx
Apr 02 11:48:21 <CosmoHill> meego is about 3 days old and doesn't have x11
Apr 02 11:49:55 <Mek> hmm? doesn't have x11? I thought it came with (only) an xterm, and thus x11...
Apr 02 11:50:51 * CosmoHill shurgs
Apr 02 11:51:41 <Stskeeps> intel images boot to console
Apr 02 12:05:17 <anttu> CosmoHill: no, lots of stuff missing
Apr 02 12:05:48 <anttu> tried to install ppp, but stumbled to libpcap
Apr 02 12:13:14 <andli> sweet
Apr 02 12:29:34 <CosmoHill> who here is interested in meego for virtual box?
Apr 02 12:32:28 <andli> sure, why not
Apr 02 12:33:21 <andli> how to run android apps in maemo/meego, using the emulator?
Apr 02 12:33:32 <CosmoHill> there will be one in 17 mins
Apr 02 12:34:28 <Backtrack> people... can i ask some questions bout maemo here?
Apr 02 12:35:09 <CosmoHill> you can try
Apr 02 12:36:12 <Backtrack> thanks... i mean to extract some firmware files from the vanilla .bin file of maemo... the standard software dont work...
Apr 02 12:38:13 <andli> Backtrack: you want to extract firmware files from the vanilla .bin file of maemo
Apr 02 12:38:23 <Backtrack> yes
Apr 02 12:38:38 <andli> please go ahead
Apr 02 12:39:20 <Backtrack> nero doesnt work. the bin file inst a normal bin...
Apr 02 12:41:05 <Backtrack> during the flashing, just the maemo flasher extract and send the files... but maemo flasher has a part some tasks to do this... the only way is maemo flasher or a good bin extractor.
Apr 02 12:43:37 <andli> Backtrack: hack the maemo flasher :)
Apr 02 12:44:02 <Backtrack> yes how :)
Apr 02 12:48:09 <Blacktrack> sorry i get disconnected
Apr 02 12:50:39 <CosmoHill> http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/
Apr 02 12:52:20 <Blacktrack> hi all... i need to open an vanilla image file (bin that includes firmware files of frmantle). can you help me to do that?? thanks in advance
Apr 02 12:54:13 <Stskeeps> Blacktrack: you can't extract a fs that way
Apr 02 12:55:29 <JPerlow> CosmoHill: your web server isnt allowing me to download your vdi file
Apr 02 12:55:35 <JPerlow> permissions issue
Apr 02 12:55:38 <CosmoHill> oh
Apr 02 12:56:03 <JPerlow> what modifications did you make, the syslinux?
Apr 02 12:56:09 <alden> CosmoHill: 403 on meego-iso.vdi
Apr 02 12:56:09 <Blacktrack> <Stskeeps> do you know some ways to do that? nothing is impossible in a wold of computers
Apr 02 12:56:10 <CosmoHill> okay now you can get it
Apr 02 12:56:24 <CosmoHill> JPerlow: see the readme file
Apr 02 12:56:54 <dgegne> hi
Apr 02 12:57:02 <JPerlow> ok now its downloading
Apr 02 12:57:13 <CosmoHill> for some reason it was 777 instead of 744
Apr 02 12:57:30 <JPerlow> thanks for the effort, I was going to do the syslinux junk on the image this morning and convert it
Apr 02 12:57:36 <dgegne> no UI?
Apr 02 12:57:43 <CosmoHill> nope
Apr 02 12:57:46 <JPerlow> someone should put it up on the meego web site
Apr 02 12:57:52 <alden> CosmoHill: why would 777 give a permissions error?
Apr 02 12:57:59 <CosmoHill> *700
Apr 02 12:58:07 <alden> k
Apr 02 12:58:12 <JPerlow> yeah 700 would nail it
Apr 02 12:58:12 <JPerlow> lol
Apr 02 12:58:35 <dgegne> CosmoHill i saw Xorg server in the repository, it means that i can have a GUI?
Apr 02 12:58:46 <CosmoHill> i think you can instlal something
Apr 02 12:58:49 <CosmoHill> it might just be twm
Apr 02 12:59:20 <Blacktrack> has meego yat a gui???
Apr 02 12:59:24 <dgegne> another question: install from usbimg doesn't work
Apr 02 12:59:41 <Blacktrack> sorry... i mean has meego yet a gui???
Apr 02 13:00:24 <JPerlow> I'm coming to a shell prompt
Apr 02 13:00:34 <JPerlow> do you have to manually log in and fire off X?
Apr 02 13:01:56 <JPerlow> what's the default root pw?
Apr 02 13:02:05 <dgegne> anyone was able to install it on a netbook?
Apr 02 13:02:32 <dgegne> JPerlow meego
Apr 02 13:02:52 <CosmoHill> JPerlow: "meego"
Apr 02 13:03:00 <JPerlow> ok logged in
Apr 02 13:03:03 <JPerlow> no X?
Apr 02 13:03:10 * CosmoHill shrugs
Apr 02 13:03:19 <Stskeeps> on intel no
Apr 02 13:03:34 <JPerlow> do I have to pull it in on repos?
Apr 02 13:03:49 <dgegne> i saw xorg in the updates
Apr 02 13:04:31 <dgegne> but i'm not able to install it
Apr 02 13:04:50 <dgegne> the install procedure fails
Apr 02 13:05:01 <JPerlow> well my network isnt functioning for starters, I wonder what modules its looking for
Apr 02 13:05:11 <JPerlow> I'll try the intel instead of pcnet
Apr 02 13:06:25 <JPerlow> yep, likes intel pro 1000
Apr 02 13:06:27 <JPerlow> not pcnet
Apr 02 13:06:56 <dgegne> jperlow are you using usb boot disk?
Apr 02 13:07:15 <JPerlow> I'm using cosmolite's VDI file for virtualbox
Apr 02 13:07:24 <JPerlow> I dont have a physical netbook
Apr 02 13:07:28 <dgegne> k
Apr 02 13:07:39 <JPerlow> I can see some of the repos are erroring out
Apr 02 13:07:43 <JPerlow> when I do yum update
Apr 02 13:07:47 <JPerlow> the three primaries are ok
Apr 02 13:07:52 <JPerlow> the extra repo blows up
Apr 02 13:08:04 <dgegne> i'm trying to install fedora and then update it to meego
Apr 02 13:08:07 <dgegne> is it a bad idea?
Apr 02 13:08:35 <JPerlow> meego-devel and meego-primary are ok
Apr 02 13:08:45 <JPerlow> meego-extra no good
Apr 02 13:08:52 <JPerlow> maybe they are doing some maintenance
Apr 02 13:11:29 <JPerlow> theres a ton of gui packages in the main repodata
Apr 02 13:11:39 <JPerlow> maybe it requires an install
Apr 02 13:11:44 <JPerlow> instead of just booting it
Apr 02 13:13:08 <robsta> dgegne: yes
Apr 02 13:13:52 <dgegne> yes what
Apr 02 13:14:05 <robsta> bad idea
Apr 02 13:14:15 <dgegne> i saw a howto for that
Apr 02 13:14:24 <dgegne> for moblin
Apr 02 13:14:28 <JPerlow> man the installer does not like this vdi
Apr 02 13:14:36 <dgegne> robsta how can i install meego on a netbook?
Apr 02 13:14:41 <JPerlow> init comes up with no more processes
Apr 02 13:14:54 <epictetus> wish i had an n900 so i could try it out
Apr 02 13:14:57 <dockside> how much source do i need to pull to get something that compiles into a working system atm?, got a very limited line here=/
Apr 02 13:15:02 <robsta> dgegne: i would not recommend to do that, there's no GUI
Apr 02 13:15:17 <JPerlow> I can't beleive they would come up with a developer release this raw
Apr 02 13:15:47 <Surfa> developer release is developer release
Apr 02 13:15:53 <JPerlow> how the heck do they expect to compete against android or chromium
Apr 02 13:15:57 <lcuk> it hit slashdot btw: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/10/04/02/1228249/-Intel-and-Nokia-Provide-First-MeeGo-Release
Apr 02 13:15:59 <Surfa> first touch, nothing more
Apr 02 13:16:17 <JPerlow> surfa, yes, developer, but basic stuff should work
Apr 02 13:16:25 <robsta> dgegne: only the very early moblin releases were based on fedora, it's a distro of it's own now
Apr 02 13:16:42 <lcuk> are most developers intent on being low level system developers, or used to using an ide and toolkits
Apr 02 13:16:46 <robsta> dgegne: that's like saying you install fedora and the update to mandriva, it will blow up
Apr 02 13:17:10 <JPerlow> did they primarily focus on the Nokia devices first for this release?
Apr 02 13:17:57 <JPerlow> I wonder if theres an easy way to install all the rpms from the OS repo in one shot
Apr 02 13:18:03 <JPerlow> if they have a meta package
Apr 02 13:18:23 <dockside> doesnt really matter if it works, from that i have seen there is enough for ppl to start working, that means more man power then what they would have had if they didnt release it
Apr 02 13:18:55 <JPerlow> this seems like a rush job
Apr 02 13:19:27 <JPerlow> I expect a lot more from a company like nokia
Apr 02 13:19:28 <dockside> i hve 3s  latency on my line  so it will have  towait for me
Apr 02 13:19:32 <Stskeeps> JPerlow: the idea is to start development in the open. it is noot a release.
Apr 02 13:19:34 <robsta> JPerlow: it's impossible to please everyone, many people here were complaining that nothing was published
Apr 02 13:19:59 <JPerlow> robsta, this is less fuctional than the moblin betas
Apr 02 13:19:59 <dockside> more i would say
Apr 02 13:20:23 <dockside> this release never was about functionality
Apr 02 13:20:32 <robsta> JPerlow: if you want to work on gui apps you don't need a meego release for that, all the libs are available for the desktop
Apr 02 13:20:52 <robsta> this is really for developers, not users
Apr 02 13:21:05 <JPerlow> robsta: you still need to be able to prototype on a working desktop with the same subset
Apr 02 13:21:14 <Surfa> yep, you need to know what need and what you have
Apr 02 13:21:21 <slaine> JPerlow: and if they released with a full system tonnes of people would be complaining that it was all done behind closed doors and there was no community involvement
Apr 02 13:21:23 <JPerlow> the toolchain needs to be in there, the gui needs to be in there, etc
Apr 02 13:21:43 <dockside> nope
Apr 02 13:22:06 <robsta> JPerlow: if you are targetting netbooks you just need to develop something nice for a screen size of 1024x600 in clutter/mx or QT
Apr 02 13:22:06 <lcuk> but if the gui is set and rigid NOW then theres no way to realistically shape it to operate across the board of devices
Apr 02 13:22:31 <lcuk> robsta, if you are developing a single resolution now you fail drastically
Apr 02 13:22:33 <dockside> you dont need it to be there , it would be good if it were tho, there is still work to do
Apr 02 13:22:52 <JPerlow> robsta but how are you supposed to test it with the UI of meego
Apr 02 13:22:56 <lcuk> qt has fully dynamic widgetsets and you can handle resizing gracefully
Apr 02 13:23:17 <Stskeeps> it is a os develope release, not developer
Apr 02 13:23:22 <robsta> lcuk: yes, but the smallest size will be 1024x600
Apr 02 13:23:32 <lcuk> robsta, principle 1: rotation, that 1024*600 display can easily become a 600*1024 display
Apr 02 13:23:32 <robsta> (for netbooks)
Apr 02 13:23:36 <lcuk> no it wont
Apr 02 13:23:40 <JPerlow> if I built a Qt app, using those dimensions, that only gives me the app, compiled against a toolchain on not meego
Apr 02 13:23:44 <dockside> 840x480 is n900 res no+
Apr 02 13:23:45 <lcuk> you cannot say that
Apr 02 13:23:58 <lcuk> 480*800 likewise
Apr 02 13:24:05 <robsta> lcuk: i am an intel developer if that makes a difference
Apr 02 13:24:07 <lcuk> NEVER think in one resolution - please
Apr 02 13:24:14 <JPerlow> this is hardly an SDK
Apr 02 13:24:17 <lcuk> not in the slightest
Apr 02 13:24:26 <dockside> not my point
Apr 02 13:24:36 <JPerlow> I used to run the developer program for the Zaurus
Apr 02 13:24:36 <Surfa> JPerlow, it's not meant to be?
Apr 02 13:25:02 <JPerlow> I thought Sharp was totally disorganized, this is nuts
Apr 02 13:25:06 <robsta> dockside: 840x480 n900 is handset UX, not netbook
Apr 02 13:25:07 <dockside> my point was that 1024x600 not was the smallest screen meego is made for
Apr 02 13:25:09 <Surfa> now couple of people can start their work, not everyone, it's not the point
Apr 02 13:25:22 <dockside> ah
Apr 02 13:25:30 <Surfa> just be patient, you can't have everything on first release
Apr 02 13:25:35 <lcuk> robsta, 800*480 or 480*800
Apr 02 13:25:36 <JPerlow> I was really looking forward to demoing this in a screencast for my readers
Apr 02 13:25:41 <lcuk> 840 isnt res
Apr 02 13:25:46 <JPerlow> I guess I'm going to have to put it off a few months
Apr 02 13:25:50 <robsta> lcuk: yes, handset, not netbook
Apr 02 13:26:20 <lcuk> are you sure all netbooks have a single resolution and will do for life of your app?
Apr 02 13:26:39 <dockside> imo very little of the dvelopmenti is gui work
Apr 02 13:26:59 <robsta> lcuk: you can have higher resolution of course
Apr 02 13:27:24 <Surfa> dockside, depends what your'e doing
Apr 02 13:27:26 <dockside> qt is great at resizing,this is a none issue
Apr 02 13:27:34 <lcuk> robsta, you can have lower too
Apr 02 13:27:56 <robsta> lcuk: not with the netbook UX
Apr 02 13:28:05 <lcuk> isnt there an eee netbook with tablet touchscreen / slate format for rotatability
Apr 02 13:29:28 <jacekowski> hi all
Apr 02 13:29:34 <dockside> btw anyone compiled the kernel for non atom  x86?
Apr 02 13:29:50 * lcuk used to write resolution variant apps in visual basic - it should be a non issue nowadays to just write a ui that scales gracefully
Apr 02 13:30:04 <Stskeeps> you will need to recompile entire system,dockside
Apr 02 13:30:40 <dockside> any ugly inline asm that will make it fail?
Apr 02 13:31:15 <dockside> i would clone the repos myself if i had connection fast enough to =/
Apr 02 13:31:21 <epictetus> how does meego run on an n900?
Apr 02 13:31:29 <epictetus> does it boot up and give you a shell?
Apr 02 13:31:42 <epictetus> has anybody tried yet
Apr 02 13:32:29 <Surfa> well, inline asm is good for some things, actually excellent
Apr 02 13:32:33 <slaine> epictetus: it boots up to x and gives you an xterm
Apr 02 13:32:37 <Surfa> epictetus, yes and yes
Apr 02 13:32:53 <epictetus> cool
Apr 02 13:33:11 <epictetus> does telephony or networking work?
Apr 02 13:33:11 <dockside> not if it requires  instructions that i dont have=/
Apr 02 13:34:43 <robsta> dockside: also make sure to give clutter/mx a spin, it's ahead of qt in some areas
Apr 02 13:34:52 <robsta> (re qt great for scalable UI)
Apr 02 13:36:36 <robsta> and there's a development environment for clutter+mx+javascript in the works
Apr 02 13:39:15 <dnaumov> are there any walkthroughs/reviews of the meego release on an n900?
Apr 02 13:40:47 <epictetus> i was just getting some details out of slaine and surfa, I'm not sure if networking or telephony work yet but they say it does boot into X and give you an xterm
Apr 02 13:41:13 <slaine> dnaumov: There is no release
Apr 02 13:41:23 <dnaumov> oh, so its a bit early for installing on a device that is the one and only primary phone in posession?
Apr 02 13:41:25 <slaine> Release won't happen until may
Apr 02 13:41:48 <epictetus> i run cellbots.com a site for doing robots on cellphones I am excited that eventually this may be a good OS for cellphone robotics applications
Apr 02 13:42:04 <slaine> if you're a developer and want to help make meego a great product then by all means. If you want to keep using your n900 then not yet
Apr 02 13:42:19 <slaine> epictetus: cool
Apr 02 13:42:31 <epictetus> slaine: networking?
Apr 02 13:42:34 <epictetus> hehe
Apr 02 13:42:43 <epictetus> slaine: or telephony?
Apr 02 13:43:19 <slaine> I know that ofono is on there and works at a very basic level
Apr 02 13:43:26 <slaine> but other than that, I don't know
Apr 02 13:43:26 <epictetus> what's ofono
Apr 02 13:43:31 <slaine> the radio stack
Apr 02 13:43:37 <slaine> ofono.org
Apr 02 13:43:39 <epictetus> ahh
Apr 02 13:43:47 <slaine> Nokia and Intel started the project last year
Apr 02 13:44:02 <slaine> So the merger wasn't really that much of a shock as you might say :)
Apr 02 13:44:06 <epictetus> so no wifi or 3g yet though
Apr 02 13:44:29 <slaine> no idea, I'm coming at this from the x86 netbook side
Apr 02 13:44:34 <epictetus> ahh
Apr 02 13:44:39 <slaine> networking works there
Apr 02 13:45:30 <epictetus> i'm completely uninterested in the netbook side :) don't you already have 9812381923 linux distros that run on netbooks
Apr 02 13:45:53 <lcuk> 9812381924
Apr 02 13:45:56 <lcuk> 9812381925
Apr 02 13:45:58 <lcuk> 9812381926
Apr 02 13:46:01 <lcuk> :D
Apr 02 13:46:04 <epictetus> exactly
Apr 02 13:46:11 <robsta> epictetus: the thing is that windows, gnome and kde suck on netbooks
Apr 02 13:46:39 <epictetus> xfce? pwm? fvwm?
Apr 02 13:46:46 <dockside> awesome rocks on netbooks
Apr 02 13:47:08 <dockside> bet it would rock on a n900 too
Apr 02 13:47:11 <epictetus> there must be some windowing system that is good
Apr 02 13:47:37 <slaine> Moblin rocked on netbooks
Apr 02 13:47:42 <epictetus> i also think the netbook fad is gonna die out
Apr 02 13:47:43 <slaine> that's why I'm interested in MeeGo
Apr 02 13:47:51 <johnel> I think a less-bloated Linux distro that is actually consumer friendly is needed and MeeGo seems to fit that (eventually)
Apr 02 13:48:03 <robsta> if you like moblin, you will love meego, slaine
Apr 02 13:48:27 <slaine> epictetus: in fairness, if it's a fad, it's lasting  a long time and changing the way all the pc manufacturers operate
Apr 02 13:48:35 <slaine> robsta: oh I know, tehehe
Apr 02 13:49:05 <lcuk> i want a lightning fast optimized experience on my big pc too - its not just netbooks that have slow running things
Apr 02 13:50:07 <robsta> lcuk: on the desktop the speed (or lack thereof) is more in the apps you use i think
Apr 02 13:50:12 <lcuk> i have an intel dual core 20inch allinone multitouch jobby and i want it to purr whilst not acting as a room heater with juddery graphics
Apr 02 13:50:24 <lcuk> robsta, yes, the apps are not optimized
Apr 02 13:50:37 <lcuk> "buy more hardware, bigger faster hotter"
Apr 02 13:50:50 <robsta> lcuk: but for fast graphics meego/netbook will excel, because it's hardware accelerated
Apr 02 13:50:54 <lcuk> screw that, i used to run a proper desktop happily on my 7mhz amiga
Apr 02 13:51:36 <robsta> lcuk: and you can do things like this in hardware http://chrislord.net/blog/Software/mx-deform-texture.enlighten
Apr 02 13:52:02 <lcuk> robsta, the thing about hardware accelerated - especially for x11 is that the hardware accel just extends the pipeline
Apr 02 13:52:13 <lcuk> thecpu is mostly involved in the original rendering onto pixmaps
Apr 02 13:52:20 <lcuk> then its passed to the hardware for compositing
Apr 02 13:52:28 <lcuk> then its sent to display
Apr 02 13:52:42 <robsta> lcuk: not with clutter, it goes to opengl, not X11
Apr 02 13:53:37 <lcuk> yes, clutter stage and actors are good and nice and bypass it
Apr 02 13:53:48 <lcuk> but thats specifically clutter
Apr 02 13:53:56 <slaine> and the netbook ux will use that
Apr 02 13:54:01 <lcuk> how many apps are pure clutter
Apr 02 13:54:14 <slaine> all the netbook ux ones ;)
Apr 02 13:54:15 <lcuk> or rather, which - ie dont use gtk or qt
Apr 02 13:54:30 <robsta> slaine: well, most
Apr 02 13:55:28 <slaine> robsta: I was eager for moblin2.2 so I'm excited to see what you've all come up with for meego 1.0
Apr 02 14:01:32 <robsta> lcuk: what apps are you using that have the graphics subsystem as bottleneck?
Apr 02 14:02:47 <lcuk> robsta, everything is a bottleneck on mobile device - i have very high standards and expectations of speed :)
Apr 02 14:03:26 <lcuk> overview of how i like things to run: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hGUKICDeok
Apr 02 14:03:33 <robsta> lcuk: you were referring to your desktop before
Apr 02 14:04:09 <lcuk> robsta, yes, likewise
Apr 02 14:04:17 <lcuk> intel hcipsets are suboptimal for desktop resolutions
Apr 02 14:05:00 <robsta> vid looks nice
Apr 02 14:05:44 <robsta> i guess you want full HW accel for that kind of stuff
Apr 02 14:05:52 <robsta> means clutter, not qt
Apr 02 14:05:55 <lcuk> yeah robsta :) tis the fastest pathway i could find on the device, direct single rendering chain
Apr 02 14:06:18 <lcuk> i see no reason why qt cant achieve similar
Apr 02 14:07:20 <robsta> it probably can, but now i hear QGraphicsView with opengl backend is not up to what clutter does
Apr 02 14:08:17 <robsta> lcuk: i've also seen HW accelerated svg rendering on top of clutter
Apr 02 14:08:28 <robsta> maybe it's that kind of stuff you're after?
Apr 02 14:08:46 <lcuk> clutter has its share of problems that qt can solve
Apr 02 14:08:50 <lcuk> ie, is there a windows port?
Apr 02 14:09:03 <robsta> it used to work on windows at one point
Apr 02 14:09:09 <robsta> i.e. there's nothing preventing it
Apr 02 14:09:25 <lcuk> yeah, but being able to build and run qt for * desktops is powerful :)
Apr 02 14:09:36 <lcuk> then likewise for handhelds etc
Apr 02 14:10:22 <robsta> yes qt has an edge over clutter there,. undoubtedly
Apr 02 14:10:51 <robsta> but OTOH you can't achieve what clutter does with qt now
Apr 02 14:10:59 <robsta> (if you look at the link i pasted above)
Apr 02 14:11:16 <lcuk> so as long as its optimized enough and can be continued to work on (painter->* especially) it can be more practically useful
Apr 02 14:11:42 <lcuk> robsta, clutter is good, dont get me wrong
Apr 02 14:12:14 <robsta> clutter also has a11y almost done, you don't have that for QGraphicsView
Apr 02 14:12:51 <robsta> and redhat will sponsor work on clutter/a11y as part of gnome3
Apr 02 14:12:56 <lcuk> most apps are happy in native qt tho
Apr 02 14:13:05 <lcuk> or native gtk
Apr 02 14:13:15 <slaine> lcuk, just looking at your liqbase stuff, really nice
Apr 02 14:13:16 <lcuk> you dont need more, its a case of "meh need configuration dialog"
Apr 02 14:13:19 <lcuk> not fancy pants
Apr 02 14:13:24 <lcuk> slaine, :)
Apr 02 14:13:35 <robsta> lcuk: that's why i was asking where you're having graphics bottlenecks
Apr 02 14:13:41 <lcuk> on a bit of a hold atm whilst i work on something more important
Apr 02 14:13:56 <slaine> gotta pay the bills alright
Apr 02 14:14:00 <lcuk> robsta, transition effects on the winmanager are important
Apr 02 14:14:01 <w00t_> lcuk wants to get all the chicks
Apr 02 14:14:09 <lcuk> wants?
Apr 02 14:14:13 <lcuk> i have all the chick i need
Apr 02 14:14:16 <w00t_> hehe
Apr 02 14:15:35 <lcuk> would the os/qt/meego need a graphics settings thing
Apr 02 14:15:36 <lcuk> like games
Apr 02 14:15:43 <lcuk> graphics level: low/medium/high
Apr 02 14:15:59 <lcuk> antialiasing etc
Apr 02 14:16:40 <robsta> no
Apr 02 14:17:08 <robsta> there's no point in such a thing for the meego product
Apr 02 14:17:11 <alden> that qt logo animation in qtdemo runs quite smoothly on my desktop machine
Apr 02 14:17:18 <robsta> you just want a pleasing default appearance
Apr 02 14:18:17 <robsta> meego is not compiz
Apr 02 14:18:27 <lcuk> robsta, why is there no need?
Apr 02 14:18:43 <lcuk> have you ever run on low powered platform?
Apr 02 14:18:46 <lcuk> i want battery life!
Apr 02 14:19:08 <lcuk> compromise and flexibility are important
Apr 02 14:19:23 <robsta> lcuk: the handset images will take that into account
Apr 02 14:19:33 <b-man17> some people are even complaining about the fact that meego uses bash instead of busybox lol
Apr 02 14:19:40 <lcuk> lol b-man17
Apr 02 14:20:00 <lcuk> robsta, but that same handset image can be docked and have full speed high power available sometimes
Apr 02 14:20:21 <lcuk> and i might want that showing fancy nice animated live uis
Apr 02 14:20:31 <robsta> lcuk: in that cases you don't want to have to change a setting, it should just work
Apr 02 14:20:36 <lcuk> but then i might want to also charge quickly so want to drop to minimal
Apr 02 14:20:52 <lcuk> robsta, people are fussy, they like tweaking things
Apr 02 14:20:59 <lcuk> gives them some purpose
Apr 02 14:21:24 <robsta> lcuk: exactly, such an app / added bling is perfect for a community project
Apr 02 14:21:25 <lcuk> having an app without configuration (microsoft surface globe im looking right at you) is silly
Apr 02 14:21:34 <robsta> i can't see nokia or intel putting $$ on that
Apr 02 14:22:38 <lcuk> on maemo we have clutter based wm with fancy pants transitions
Apr 02 14:22:47 <lcuk> and bling sells devices
Apr 02 14:23:05 <robsta> i'm not saying there should not be bling
Apr 02 14:23:21 <robsta> i'm saying there should be sensible bling by default
Apr 02 14:23:21 <lcuk> you just said they wont, but both companies have
Apr 02 14:23:43 * w00t_ isn't really following where this conversation is going
Apr 02 14:23:48 <robsta> and there should not be an app to tweak how much bling you get for the purpose of extending battery life
Apr 02 14:23:50 * lcuk isnt either
Apr 02 14:23:56 * robsta neither
Apr 02 14:24:00 <w00t_> new topic!
Apr 02 14:24:08 <w00t_> meego: can it be ported to run on your toaster?
Apr 02 14:24:08 <slaine> Happy Friday
Apr 02 14:24:10 <robsta> better i shut up then it guess
Apr 02 14:24:24 <robsta> slaine, same to you, sir
Apr 02 14:24:25 <slaine> w00t_: it runs on new moorsetown toasters
Apr 02 14:24:27 <lcuk> my allinone multitouch device fails when i try to draw boobies on the screen
Apr 02 14:24:32 <w00t_> lcuk: hahah
Apr 02 14:24:39 <b-man17> rolflol
Apr 02 14:24:42 <w00t_> did PB get back to you yet?
Apr 02 14:24:45 <lcuk> infact, lemme just get tracy to hold the camera
Apr 02 14:24:46 * b-man17 dies
Apr 02 14:25:01 <lcuk> the example i gave before wasnt representative of boob drawing
Apr 02 14:26:08 <lcuk> brb with booby drawings
Apr 02 14:26:51 <w00t_> lol
Apr 02 14:27:10 <b-man17> rofl
Apr 02 14:27:52 <slaine> I saw the best ssid the other day, "(.)(.) Boobies Tehehe"
Apr 02 14:28:22 <w00t_> I've seen some really strange ones in my time :P
Apr 02 14:28:44 <w00t_> one of my neighbours is 'THRUSH'
Apr 02 14:28:48 <w00t_> I hope that's not representative of anythinfg
Apr 02 14:28:50 <w00t_> -f
Apr 02 14:28:51 <slaine> haha
Apr 02 14:29:03 * b-man17 attempts to build NetBSD's ash shell on his N900... fails miserably..
Apr 02 14:49:21 <blackduck> Is there anybody here that can answer a question or two regarding the meego git repository structure?
Apr 02 14:50:37 <blackduck> Effectively, I'm trying to find out if there's any sort of master git manifest, or perhaps a simple way of checking out the source for the entire project, as I have noticed that it appears to be set up so only each subcomponent has it's own manifest.
Apr 02 15:05:50 <alden> I've booted into a shell using CosmoHills vdi image
Apr 02 15:06:02 <alden> networking seems to work
Apr 02 15:15:38 <alden> how can i get the list of packages available for install? is there an apt-get equivalent?
Apr 02 15:15:49 <alden> (on meego)
Apr 02 15:16:03 <drizztbsd> alden: is a standard rpm-based system
Apr 02 15:16:04 <drizztbsd> rpm -qa
Apr 02 15:16:10 <drizztbsd> man rpm; man yum
Apr 02 15:17:22 <blackduck> so, is it safe to assume that there's no all-encompassing way to check out all of the currently available source code?  as far as I can tell, it's only able to be checked out on an individual component level.  is this correct?
Apr 02 15:17:41 <blackduck> i'm not interested in compiling or anything of that sort, if that makes a difference.
Apr 02 15:18:24 <alden> im wondering what the quickest way to get a display up is
Apr 02 15:18:34 <blackduck> (the company i work for [see username] is interested in obtaining the source for our database of FOSS)
Apr 02 15:18:48 <alden> a window manager
Apr 02 15:20:25 <alden> window system*
Apr 02 15:20:48 <blackduck> From what I've read, there is no available window manager, only terminal access at this point.  I could be wrong, of course.
Apr 02 15:21:22 <blackduck> looks like that will fall under the "user experience" category when code becomes available for it.
Apr 02 15:22:43 <alden> yeah i know
Apr 02 15:23:00 <alden> ive gotten to a terminal
Apr 02 15:23:05 <blackduck> then, forgive me if i'm mistaken, but isn't that what you're asking about doing?
Apr 02 15:23:16 <alden> cant i build something on top of this if i pull all the dependencies?
Apr 02 15:23:38 <blackduck> ah.  i suppose that makes sense, not that i have an answer for you though.  good luck.
Apr 02 15:27:50 <Stskeeps> there are plenty packages to install
Apr 02 15:27:58 <Stskeeps> just not many installed
Apr 02 15:28:09 <Stskeeps> world is your oyser, etc
Apr 02 15:28:49 <pinchartl> hi
Apr 02 15:29:57 <dreamer> anyone here know if the phone stack on the n900 works with meego currently?
Apr 02 15:30:07 <alden> Stskeeps: any suggestions about getting X running?
Apr 02 15:30:23 <Stskeeps> alden: -fbdev is in repo
Apr 02 15:32:46 <alden> is there a way i can install all of the rpms in http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/repo/ia32/os/i586/ in one shot?
Apr 02 15:37:34 <Stskeeps> dreamer: ofono git might
Apr 02 15:38:22 <milliams> startxr
Apr 02 15:38:31 <milliams> whoops, ignore that :)
Apr 02 15:39:20 <dreamer> stskeeps: thanks
Apr 02 15:39:53 <dreamer> do you know if there's a modified bootloader so it can be tested off sd?
Apr 02 15:41:02 <Stskeeps> dreamer: try out the kexec patches
Apr 02 15:46:07 <alden> does rpm have an option to automatically resolve dependencies?
Apr 02 15:48:31 <Stskeeps> yum or zypper
Apr 02 15:48:41 <Stskeeps> kinda like apt-get
Apr 02 15:49:01 <alden> gives me a 404 error
Apr 02 15:49:37 <Stskeeps> on arm?
Apr 02 15:49:44 <alden> intel
Apr 02 15:49:49 <Stskeeps> hmm
Apr 02 15:50:29 <Stskeeps> shouldnt give 404s
Apr 02 15:50:32 <Stskeeps> pastebin?
Apr 02 15:50:48 <milliams> zypper worked for me
Apr 02 15:51:02 <alden> http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/extra/repo/ia32/os/repodata/3a8a709742a1f931fb,,,,,-primary.sqlite.bz2: [Error 14] HTTP Error 404: <same url>
Apr 02 15:53:02 <milliams> in zypper I did get an error something like that but I just chose 'i' for ignore and it worked for downloading the packages.
Apr 02 15:53:25 <alden> milliams: which packages did u install?
Apr 02 15:53:56 <milliams> I did `zypper in qt-creator` which installed everything that it depends on.
Apr 02 15:54:28 <milliams> However, there wasn't space on the disk to install the actual creator package or one other but the rest installed fine.
Apr 02 15:56:26 <alden> zypper give me Failed to download /repodata/repomd.xml from http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/extra/repo/ia32/os
Apr 02 15:56:40 <ezjd> There is an ia32 image for N900, do you know what is it for?
Apr 02 15:57:06 <milliams> alden: yeah, and if you do 'i' then enter it seems to be able to carry on.
Apr 02 16:09:40 <drizztbsd> ezjd: debug, development
Apr 02 16:11:50 <_Sky_> is there any easy way i can "install" meego, i actually boot from the usb image in virtualbox but all changes are made in the ram
Apr 02 16:16:53 <sykopomp> love you guys.
Apr 02 16:16:53 <milliams> r
Apr 02 16:18:54 <ezjd> drizzbsd: I am downloading it assuming it will run on x86 ...
Apr 02 16:19:36 <sykopomp> question about the release, btw: the blog post says it just boots into a terminal. Does that mean you have to start the graphical session yourself, or that none of the user-side stuff is included yet?
Apr 02 16:20:22 <DawnFoster> sykopomp - the GUI isn't included yet
Apr 02 16:20:56 <ezjd> sykopomp: I saw xserver, Qt lib are available in repo
Apr 02 16:21:17 <sykopomp> DawnFoster: what kind of contributions is the project hoping for right now?
Apr 02 16:21:24 <DawnFoster> this first step was to give the lower level developers a starting point and something to test.
Apr 02 16:21:45 <DawnFoster> sykopomp mostly people who want to contribute to the meego core os.
Apr 02 16:21:56 <_Sky_> yes, x-server is installed , but doesn't start by itself and i guess there is nothing special to see if you get it working
Apr 02 16:22:12 <sykopomp> DawnFoster: great :)
Apr 02 16:22:22 <sykopomp> It's really nice to see the project taking off already.
Apr 02 16:22:40 <DawnFoster> sykopomp thanks! and feel free to submit some bugs :)
Apr 02 16:22:49 <DawnFoster> or better yet, write patches :)
Apr 02 16:23:23 <sykopomp> DawnFoster: I might throw it on my eeepc this weekend and check it out :)
Apr 02 16:23:35 <sykopomp> where's the tracker at?
Apr 02 16:24:20 <_Sky_> maybe here http://bugzilla.meego.com/
Apr 02 16:24:33 <sykopomp> thanks, bookmarked!
Apr 02 16:24:40 <DawnFoster> sykopomp cool. Let us know how it goes. _Sky_ yep - that's the link!
Apr 02 16:36:44 <alden> HOLY MOTHER OF COW
Apr 02 16:36:56 <alden> i got x running! :D
Apr 02 16:41:37 <ezjd> alden: how?
Apr 02 16:41:51 * thiago guesses he typed startx
Apr 02 16:42:20 <ml-mobile> the netbook build does not have X by default
Apr 02 16:42:36 <ezjd> thiago: No I didn't see startx nor did xinit/X
Apr 02 16:43:00 <alden> installed it from extras using zypper like milliams said
Apr 02 16:43:03 <thiago> after you install X, of course
Apr 02 16:43:16 <alden> running in VirtualBox btw
Apr 02 16:43:28 <ezjd> ml_mobile: so I need to install X by myself. btw, I am using N900 image with qemu
Apr 02 16:44:32 <alden> hadnt expected it to be this easy
Apr 02 16:44:56 <ml-mobile> oh, N900
Apr 02 16:45:11 <dgegne> ml-mobile is there a GUI for netbooks?
Apr 02 16:45:18 <cyberkonsult> alden: How did you get it to boot in VB??
Apr 02 16:45:23 <ml-mobile> not that I have seen
Apr 02 16:45:54 <alden> cyberkonsult: i used CosmoHill's vdi image which replaced the default kernel with an ubuntu one
Apr 02 16:46:07 <auke> lbt: no, we won't make meego required to do meego development
Apr 02 16:46:22 <auke> lbt: but, there are obvious issues with supporting other distro's for meego development
Apr 02 16:46:24 <cyberkonsult> alden: ok.. thanks
Apr 02 16:47:06 <microlith> mmm, much faster typing than the N900
Apr 02 16:47:07 <microlith> anyway
Apr 02 16:47:30 <microlith> I had meego up on my AA1 yesterday, but I am loathe to figure out how to connect to a WEP protected AP with only iwconfig
Apr 02 16:47:51 <lbt> auke: yep - but if there's a policy saying that A, B and C will be supported then it helps to ensure that a tool that doesn't work on them is not released until it does
Apr 02 16:47:57 <microlith> so I suppose X could have been pulled down via zypper or yum, but I did not try
Apr 02 16:48:14 <lbt> and what "obvious issues" ?
Apr 02 16:48:23 <alden> worked with zypper, yum gave me 404 errors
Apr 02 16:48:30 <ezjd> alden: btw, what is host CPU you are using? I have AMD PC, always get illegal instruction so I moved to arm image ...
Apr 02 16:48:49 <microlith> as for my N900, I need to get an SD card and figure out how to boot off of it
Apr 02 16:49:12 <alden> ezjd: intel
Apr 02 16:49:14 <alden> c2d
Apr 02 16:49:29 <auke> lbt: the fact that people tend to use various older versions of other distros and expect them all to work and be compatible etc.
Apr 02 16:49:37 <auke> for one
Apr 02 16:50:08 <lbt> well, that's true for older versions of Meego too
Apr 02 16:50:23 <ezjd> auke: btw u r talking about host OS?
Apr 02 16:50:30 <auke> lbt: I think the image-creater will have a clear list of what is supported
Apr 02 16:50:34 <auke> ezjd: yes
Apr 02 16:50:47 <ezjd> auke: what is the recommended one?
Apr 02 16:50:48 <alden> trying to get the mouse to work now
Apr 02 16:50:58 <auke> ezjd: MeeGo
Apr 02 16:50:59 <alden> theres no config file in /etc/X11
Apr 02 16:50:59 * microlith wishes the Zoom-II platforms weren't so expensive
Apr 02 16:51:05 <lbt> I'm pushing to ensure the Meego SDK and tools are clearly encapsulated and to avoid wuestions like ezjd's
Apr 02 16:51:07 <sykopomp> auke: supporting other distros for development is not so much of a problem if you expect them to do final testing on meego itself :)
Apr 02 16:51:20 <auke> sykopomp: exactly
Apr 02 16:51:26 <lbt> there is no way MeeGo itself should be "the recommended one"
Apr 02 16:51:38 <auke> lbt: I disagree, completely
Apr 02 16:51:39 <sykopomp> lbt: for release? Absolutely it should be.
Apr 02 16:51:47 <microlith> is there a beagleboard revision with built-in ethernet?
Apr 02 16:51:51 <auke> self-hosted, for a generic distribution, is a _must_
Apr 02 16:51:56 <lbt> Meego's UI should be totally unsuitable for terminal level developers
Apr 02 16:51:59 <auke> besides that I'm doing all my work on MeeGo
Apr 02 16:52:36 <auke> we have several UI's
Apr 02 16:52:39 <sykopomp> you don't want to test an application on Ubuntu and claim it'll run fine on MeeGo, sorry :\
Apr 02 16:52:40 <auke> not just the handset
Apr 02 16:52:54 <lbt> sykopomp: indeed
Apr 02 16:52:58 <auke> you're all forgetting MeeGo is much more than an embedded phone OS
Apr 02 16:53:11 <auke> we'll have netbook UI's, etc etc
Apr 02 16:53:22 <sykopomp> are all applications expected to work on all platforms, then?
Apr 02 16:53:27 <sykopomp> that would be silly.
Apr 02 16:53:27 <lbt> sykopomp: you do want to ensure you *can* test an app on ubuntu and be damned sure it works though :
Apr 02 16:53:29 <auke> in principle
Apr 02 16:53:39 <sykopomp> lbt: no. You can't.
Apr 02 16:53:48 <sykopomp> lbt: you can do a reasonable amount of development right on ubuntu.
Apr 02 16:53:51 <sykopomp> but you can't test on ubuntu.
Apr 02 16:53:51 <auke> yes we expect all applications to work everywhere (unless hardware constraints, screen sizes etc)
Apr 02 16:54:07 <sykopomp> auke: precisely because of hardware constraints.
Apr 02 16:54:09 <lbt> sykopomp: let's say ARM then...
Apr 02 16:54:17 <auke> let's set one thing straight: we DO NOT test on fedora, ubuntu
Apr 02 16:54:23 <lbt> I can't test w/o flashing to a device?
Apr 02 16:54:25 <auke> all the QA is done on MeeGo
Apr 02 16:54:28 <lbt> paff
Apr 02 16:54:32 <sykopomp> lbt: no, Ubuntu patches its software. You cannot reasonable guarantee that it'll run on MeeGo just because it runs on Ubuntu.
Apr 02 16:54:37 <sykopomp> these are two different systems.
Apr 02 16:54:43 <lbt> indeed - hence the need for encapsulation
Apr 02 16:54:46 <sykopomp> Running QA on Ubuntu is a waste of time.
Apr 02 16:54:59 <lbt> so when I test on ubuntu I'm using the meego libs
Apr 02 16:55:11 <sykopomp> you're still testing on top of the ubuntu stack.
Apr 02 16:55:16 <sykopomp> not the stack you're actually going to deliver on.
Apr 02 16:55:17 <auke> lbt: you don't want to be the person who tells QA that they need to test all their packages on 3 OSs instead of 1
Apr 02 16:55:22 <lbt> and there's a difference between QA and dev-testing
Apr 02 16:55:36 <auke> oh dont get me started on that
Apr 02 16:55:41 <lbt> I was talking about developing
Apr 02 16:55:45 <auke> developer: here's my package, IT WORKS!
Apr 02 16:55:51 <auke> QA: no, it's broken
Apr 02 16:55:58 <auke> developer: nah ah, works for me!
Apr 02 16:55:58 <lbt> heh - auke you're preaching to the converted here
Apr 02 16:56:09 <sykopomp> auke: don't get me started. I do QA for a living. :|
Apr 02 16:56:33 <sykopomp> "reopen..." "this works" "no it doesn't" "yes it does" "make it better"
Apr 02 16:56:38 <auke> here's a free pass to hit a developer on the head once
Apr 02 16:56:47 <alden> how do i stop x?
Apr 02 16:56:51 <auke> pkill Xorg
Apr 02 16:56:52 <lbt> and that is my point
Apr 02 16:57:11 <lbt> if you make it hard for devs to test on their dev-env... it hurts QA
Apr 02 16:57:26 <lbt> they won't use MEeGo because you ask nicely you know
Apr 02 16:57:39 <lbt> they don't pick their desktop for our benefit
Apr 02 16:57:48 <sykopomp> lbt: they're developing for MeeGo. They should use a VM.
Apr 02 16:57:52 <sykopomp> no? :)
Apr 02 16:57:58 <lbt> no
Apr 02 16:58:01 <lbt> seriously no
Apr 02 16:58:06 <lbt> they should test in a VM
Apr 02 16:58:24 <lbt> but emacs/eclipse will run on ubuntu/fedora/gentoo
Apr 02 16:58:33 <sykopomp> sure
Apr 02 16:58:37 <lbt> so we need to think about how to ease that
Apr 02 16:58:55 <thiago> you don't need to run your dev environment on MeeGo
Apr 02 16:59:00 <lbt> and the answer is *NOT* to assume they use Meego as the desktop
Apr 02 16:59:00 <thiago> you just need to deploy the app and run it
Apr 02 16:59:04 <thiago> and remote debug
Apr 02 16:59:17 <thiago> if you can do that to a device running a different processor, you can to a VM
Apr 02 16:59:27 <sykopomp> ^
Apr 02 16:59:54 <sykopomp> both Google and Apple have VMs that they ship with their SDK
Apr 02 16:59:57 * thiago really doesn't think running Qt Creator on the N900 is a solution to anything
Apr 02 16:59:59 <lbt> so... the answer "Meego is our preferred dev env" will minimise efforts and assumptions like ^^^
Apr 02 17:00:03 <sykopomp> is that the way MeeGo is going to go about it?
Apr 02 17:00:45 <thiago> hopefully not
Apr 02 17:01:05 <thiago> Qt Creator + MADDE can already deploy, run and debug remote apps
Apr 02 17:01:08 <lbt> sadly it appears like that was indeed the 1st cut approach
Apr 02 17:01:19 <thiago> that's how Moblin did it
Apr 02 17:01:24 <w00t_> lbt: to be fair, it's really, really early days
Apr 02 17:01:26 <thiago> it doesn't mean it's the proper solution (IMO)
Apr 02 17:01:38 <thiago> there's still work to be done
Apr 02 17:01:46 <Stskeeps> lbt: so, what are you going to help make developer nirvana happen? :)
Apr 02 17:01:50 <Stskeeps> +to
Apr 02 17:02:10 <ezjd> I think whether host OS matters or not depends on whether MeeGO directly uses cross compiling or not, esp.for ARM.
Apr 02 17:02:10 <lbt> make people check some assumptions
Apr 02 17:02:34 <lbt> and you know I favour the managed minimal chroot/VM approach
Apr 02 17:02:55 <Stskeeps> ideally we will have two sdks
Apr 02 17:03:02 <Stskeeps> meego sdk and platform sdk
Apr 02 17:03:12 <lbt> I'm a big fan of some of scratchboxes concepts...
Apr 02 17:03:17 <lbt> *some* of
Apr 02 17:03:22 <Stskeeps> first one is for qt, second is for everything that can't be compiled with a simple cross compile
Apr 02 17:03:26 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 17:03:34 <lbt> and I think the OBS stuff allows that to be improved upon
Apr 02 17:03:43 <Stskeeps> first one needs a developer machine neutral backend
Apr 02 17:03:56 * thiago agrees with Stskeeps 
Apr 02 17:04:03 <thiago> most app developers won't need the Platform SDK
Apr 02 17:04:17 <Stskeeps> and three, the image creation tools.
Apr 02 17:04:52 <Stskeeps> and those are the tools we need to develop.
Apr 02 17:04:57 <thiago> well, the basis of a simple cross-compiling SDK is a cross-compiler and the sysroot
Apr 02 17:05:05 <thiago> the sysroot is the same for all distros, even for Mac and Windows
Apr 02 17:05:23 <thiago> the toolchain is all opensource. We can compile for a suitable set of distros, but you can always rebuild it yourself.
Apr 02 17:05:26 <Stskeeps> image creation tools should ideally be a simple VM so even the non-platform-SDK can generate their own mages
Apr 02 17:05:31 <thiago> or other distros can, if they feel they need to.
Apr 02 17:06:06 <ezjd> My understanding is that with OBS, we don't need to worry about dev env too much, for local dev (I prefer), most likely, sth like qemu with chroot, scratchbox or VM has  to used
Apr 02 17:06:09 <sykopomp> what kind of support is MeeGo getting from Intel and Nokia, anyway?
Apr 02 17:06:10 <pinchartl> newbie question, will the SDK run all dev tools natively, or will it run some of them in qemu like scratchbox ?
Apr 02 17:06:30 <Stskeeps> pinchartl: qt sdk would just run a cross compiler
Apr 02 17:06:32 <thiago> sykopomp: what kind of question is that?
Apr 02 17:06:37 <pinchartl> Stskeeps: thanks god :-)
Apr 02 17:06:39 <Stskeeps> sykopomp: a lot, as far as i can tell
Apr 02 17:06:52 <thiago> pinchartl: what Stskeeps said, we believe
Apr 02 17:06:52 <sykopomp> thiago: financial, full-time developer support, marketing support, etc.
Apr 02 17:06:52 <RST38h> Hmmm, MeeGo makes it to Slashdot. Here goes meego.com infrastructure...
Apr 02 17:07:00 <w00t_> sykopomp: umm.
Apr 02 17:07:03 <thiago> but until the SDK drops, we won't k now
Apr 02 17:07:05 <thiago> sykopomp: yes, all of that
Apr 02 17:07:11 <Stskeeps> sykopomp: they're betting the maemo shop on the brand
Apr 02 17:07:25 <Stskeeps> so you can estimate that however you like
Apr 02 17:07:54 <microlith> RST38h: It's been up there for a couple hours, I don't think the masses quite grasp it
Apr 02 17:07:58 <RST38h> Ahhaha, immediate packaging format war rages in the comments :)))
Apr 02 17:07:59 <lbt> my concern over Qt going off on its own is that when you get things that need a little more complexity, it burns you
Apr 02 17:08:27 <thiago> lbt: true, but you'd be amazed how far you can go with it
Apr 02 17:08:29 <RST38h> lbt: POSIX.
Apr 02 17:08:41 <lbt> and by "off on its own" I mean having a QtCreator cross-compiler vs a platform SDK internal toolchain
Apr 02 17:08:42 <thiago> lbt: for 15 years Qt clients have been using tools like tmake and qmake
Apr 02 17:08:49 <thiago> lbt: they do just fine with it
Apr 02 17:08:51 <RST38h> Tying your projects to Qt is a bad idea anyway
Apr 02 17:08:59 <RST38h> Makes them unportable.
Apr 02 17:09:18 <thiago> RST38h: where else would you port your project to?
Apr 02 17:09:26 <lbt> thiago: he got you :)
Apr 02 17:09:49 <RST38h> thiago: You want Unix or non-Unix platform?
Apr 02 17:09:54 <thiago> RST38h: yes
Apr 02 17:09:55 <dockside> what does not qt run on that you want to run it on? native lisp-machines?
Apr 02 17:10:34 <dockside> sincere question actually
Apr 02 17:10:46 <pinchartl> dockside: are there native lisp machines ?
Apr 02 17:10:51 <thiago> POSIX has no GUI. It's nice, but it won't get you very far.
Apr 02 17:10:53 <sykopomp> pinchartl: Yes.
Apr 02 17:10:57 <dilinger> can OBS be installed locally?
Apr 02 17:10:58 <RST38h> thiago: If you want Linux, let us make it Freescale STMP36xx
Apr 02 17:11:01 <microlith> dockside: Qt doesn't have enough parenthesis for lisp
Apr 02 17:11:03 <sykopomp> pinchartl: Also known as best-operating-systems-ever.
Apr 02 17:11:07 <thiago> RST38h: sorry?
Apr 02 17:11:09 <RST38h> thiago: No Qt. No X11.
Apr 02 17:11:24 <thiago> RST38h: Qt can run on Linux without X11.
Apr 02 17:11:25 <dilinger> or is it just the centralized build system, and there's no option of reproducing builds locally?
Apr 02 17:11:36 <RST38h> thiago: If you want non-Linux, let us say, a generic 386EX board running FreeDOS
Apr 02 17:11:36 <dockside> there are native lisp machines yes.
Apr 02 17:11:44 <lbt> dilinger: nope
Apr 02 17:11:49 <thiago> QtCore and QtXml have been ported to DOS.
Apr 02 17:11:53 <thiago> I know who did it.
Apr 02 17:12:01 <dilinger> that's going to cause pain down the line
Apr 02 17:12:02 <RST38h> thiago: Yes, only compiling it for that particular platform is undoable for a few other reasons
Apr 02 17:12:16 <thiago> and DOS isn't POSIX either.
Apr 02 17:12:27 <thiago> are you going to restrict yourself to ANSI/ISO C?
Apr 02 17:12:27 <lbt> dilinger: what is? the thing I said isn't correct?
Apr 02 17:12:27 <dockside> imo if you want to run freedos you are wrong
Apr 02 17:12:29 <RST38h> thiago: DOS + Watcom is POSIX enough
Apr 02 17:12:47 <thiago> anyway, sure, if you go looking for it, you're going to find cases
Apr 02 17:12:51 <thiago> I'm calling them corner cases
Apr 02 17:12:55 <dilinger> (perhaps less pain that scratchbox, though.  *shudder*)
Apr 02 17:13:00 <thiago> most app developers want GUI.
Apr 02 17:13:01 <dilinger> s/that/than/
Apr 02 17:13:01 <infobot> dilinger meant: (perhaps less pain than scratchbox, though.  *shudder*)
Apr 02 17:13:26 <ezjd> does anyone know if N900 image works with qemu? I can't get it running
Apr 02 17:13:31 <dilinger> lbt: not being able to reproduce builds locally
Apr 02 17:13:32 * lbt wonders if dilinger is optically challenged... :)
Apr 02 17:13:43 <csgeek> meego has qt actually, the VM you can run
Apr 02 17:13:50 <csgeek> at least it's in the repos
Apr 02 17:13:57 <b-man17> ~blow up
Apr 02 17:13:58 * infobot blows up
Apr 02 17:14:24 <thiago> RST38h: btw, Symbian's POSIX layer is buggy and slow.
Apr 02 17:14:26 <RST38h> thiago: My problem is that I am constantly hitting these corner cases
Apr 02 17:14:45 <thiago> RST38h: I don't know what your line of work is.
Apr 02 17:14:50 <RST38h> thiago: Symbian's POSIX is enough for me, I only need it to do a few mallocs at startup and read files.
Apr 02 17:14:59 <lbt> RST38h: then don't pick a generic platform optimised for mainstreams... try K&R C
Apr 02 17:15:01 <csgeek> does meego have some form of feed/twitter or something to follow.  I'm interested to see what they release in the next few days
Apr 02 17:15:05 <sykopomp> RST38h: what would you rather have? Swing? :)
Apr 02 17:15:13 <thiago> csgeek: there's a blog.
Apr 02 17:15:27 <RST38h> lbt: I am ok with K&R C, although most platforms support modern C/C++ now
Apr 02 17:15:36 <sykopomp> RST38h: if you're afraid of Qt, build your app in layers so you don't tie the view to the model ;)
Apr 02 17:15:41 <lbt> ah, but think of the corner cases RST38h :)
Apr 02 17:16:05 <odin_> hi all... is there a Wiki page of _ALL_ working group meetings?  (not in Wiki if the "What links here" is anything to go by.
Apr 02 17:16:14 <csgeek> nice.  the blog has an RSS feed
Apr 02 17:16:15 <csgeek> perfect
Apr 02 17:16:24 <RST38h> sykopomp: I am not *afraid* of Qt. I am simply not considering it a universal solution
Apr 02 17:16:38 <sykopomp> ah
Apr 02 17:16:50 <lbt> RST38h: it's not a universal solution... it's an extremely wide solution
Apr 02 17:16:53 <sykopomp> can you not run anything in MeeGo's GUI unless it's Qt?
Apr 02 17:16:59 <thiago> sykopomp: sure you can
Apr 02 17:17:05 <RST38h> lbt: Actually, there are so few corner cases for K&R C left that I can safely drop them
Apr 02 17:17:05 <sykopomp> then what's the problem?
Apr 02 17:17:09 <thiago> MeeGo is X11, so you can run any other toolkit you want to
Apr 02 17:17:12 <lbt> sykopomp: curses
Apr 02 17:17:18 <thiago> Gtk and Clutter are in the base distro too.
Apr 02 17:17:22 <RST38h> lbt: But Qt-less corner cases are everywhere in embedded world
Apr 02 17:17:31 <csgeek> well.. you could run anything that compiles in Linux in Meego
Apr 02 17:17:45 <lbt> oops
Apr 02 17:17:46 <sykopomp> RST38h: then don't tie your app to Qt? I'm confused as to what the argument is about :\
Apr 02 17:17:47 <csgeek> at this point anyways... that's sort of up in the air ... we have no "GUI" yet
Apr 02 17:17:48 <RST38h> sykopomp: I am not aware of any problems I have. Not sure what you mean
Apr 02 17:17:57 <lbt> RST38h: but MEego isn't 'embedded'
Apr 02 17:18:14 <RST38h> sykopomp: Sorry, I do not think you read the whole discussion.
Apr 02 17:18:28 <sykopomp> yeah, I must've missed something. I'll crawl back into the background now.
Apr 02 17:18:30 <thiago> lbt: well, it kinda is
Apr 02 17:18:35 <RST38h> lbt: Why would I develop something solely for MeeGo?
Apr 02 17:18:40 <sykopomp> lbt: n900 isn't considered an embedded platform?
Apr 02 17:18:45 <lbt> god no
Apr 02 17:19:00 <thiago> RST38h: depends on what you're developing, I guess
Apr 02 17:19:08 <lbt> it has tons of disk/cpu/ram, 800x640 screen, keyboard, touch....
Apr 02 17:19:09 <thiago> but yeah, if you can, you should address more markets
Apr 02 17:19:15 <lbt> that's a damned desktop
Apr 02 17:19:25 <csgeek> n900 is a cell phone.. embedded is a lot more limiting compared to some "embedded" devices
Apr 02 17:19:33 <csgeek> hell.. Meego is targetting tablets too
Apr 02 17:19:34 <RST38h> lbt: There is not even a single commercial case for MeeGo apps yet, so I have no idea why I would develop anything solely for MeeGo, unless Nokia or Intel pay me for it, specifically
Apr 02 17:19:51 <lbt> RST38h: I don't disagree
Apr 02 17:20:00 <csgeek> nextgen of both cell phones and tables will have a lot more resources and horsepower too
Apr 02 17:20:08 <csgeek> *tablets even
Apr 02 17:20:34 <RST38h> lbt: But to cover as many platforms as possible I have to be flexible. Hence, POSIX, plain framebuffer, simple audio buffers, etc
Apr 02 17:20:43 <nidO> depends on what time you have available to put into forward-thinking projects. being first to market with a product for a new (planned-to-be) widespread platform puts you in prime position to make a killing
Apr 02 17:20:54 <nidO> regardless of whether the commercial case is there *this instant*
Apr 02 17:20:54 <csgeek> RST38h: but the point is.. you can run develop apps for Linux and for the part the could just "work" on meego
Apr 02 17:20:58 <RST38h> lbt: Got an SDL-like layer that abstracts most of it with minimal effort
Apr 02 17:21:07 <lbt> thiago: if we claim to target embedded then we're looking at systems with no gui, keyboard etc. minimal RAM, few Mb of disk
Apr 02 17:21:08 <csgeek> technically your only limitation is screen size + resources
Apr 02 17:21:13 <alden> im able to start x without a configuration file, but when i use one it exits with the following error(s): (EE) open /dev/fb0: No such file or directory, (EE) Screen(s) found, but none have usable configuration, Fatal server error: no screens found
Apr 02 17:21:27 <thiago> lbt: I know a lot of embedded systems with GUI
Apr 02 17:21:45 <lbt> a gui is almost the definition of not embedded
Apr 02 17:21:51 <thiago> I disagree
Apr 02 17:22:01 <lbt> unless you mean 2x40char display
Apr 02 17:22:03 <nidO> depends on how far you stretch the definition of gui
Apr 02 17:22:04 <ezjd> alden: you need framebuffer
Apr 02 17:22:06 <thiago> no
Apr 02 17:22:11 <thiago> an LCD is a GUI
Apr 02 17:22:30 <lbt> heh - if it runs X it's not embedded
Apr 02 17:22:33 <alden> ezjd: i installed it.. it works without x.config
Apr 02 17:22:37 <lbt> Qtopi
Apr 02 17:22:38 <lbt> a
Apr 02 17:22:39 <thiago> framebuffer
Apr 02 17:22:40 <lbt> maybe
Apr 02 17:23:04 <ezjd> alden: your xorg.conf points to framebuffer
Apr 02 17:23:21 * thiago points to the HP PhotoSmart printer
Apr 02 17:23:23 <lbt> I think the point is that MeeGo is looking at battery powered and small physical size
Apr 02 17:23:26 <thiago> embedded?
Apr 02 17:23:39 <nidO> its much more simplistic than that. it's perfectly plausible for embedded systems to have lcd gui's, what makes them embedded is their lack of flexibility
Apr 02 17:23:53 <RST38h> Actually, the definition of "embedded" has been shifting lately
Apr 02 17:24:06 <lbt> if it runs Qt Gui it's not embedded
Apr 02 17:24:09 <alden> ezjd: yeah thats what the error says.. tho i cant find a line in x.conf that says /dev/fb0
Apr 02 17:24:11 <RST38h> Things like N900 are still embedded, in the traditional sense of the word
Apr 02 17:24:12 <microlith> wouldn't classifying something as "embedded" necessarily imply a restricted feature set and fixed capabilities?
Apr 02 17:24:15 <RST38h> lbt: Not really
Apr 02 17:24:16 <nidO> my ICE/nav computer has an lcd ui, but the wince computer that runs it is still clearly an embedded system
Apr 02 17:24:22 <RST38h> lbt: Still embedded
Apr 02 17:24:30 <thiago> lbt: we'll have to agree to disagree on the definition of embedded
Apr 02 17:24:39 <ezjd> alden: w/o xorg.conf, xserver used standard vga or sth else, you can check /var/log/X.log.0 to figure out
Apr 02 17:24:40 <lbt> feel free to be wrong ;)
Apr 02 17:24:49 * RST38h has heard the term "deeply embedded" for the low end screen-less, keyboard-less stuff
Apr 02 17:25:02 <lbt> it's not really a physical thing anyway
Apr 02 17:25:05 <microlith> like how my desk phone (cisco IP phone) would be "embedded" but my N900 is "mobile" or "wireless"
Apr 02 17:25:07 <nidO> microlith yes basically. a device with a gui that can still only accomplish a specific limited set of tasks is embedded
Apr 02 17:25:13 <lbt> it's more a usage/mentality thing
Apr 02 17:25:13 <RST38h> N900 is still embedded
Apr 02 17:25:20 <nidO> while devices like the n900 are clearly much more flexible, and not embedded
Apr 02 17:25:21 <RST38h> Just got way more resources
Apr 02 17:25:31 <microlith> nidO: well, even thing without a gui, just fixed-function
Apr 02 17:25:32 <dockside> laptops are embedded
Apr 02 17:25:33 <lbt> N900 isn't embedded because it's a general purpose computer
Apr 02 17:25:37 <RST38h> laptops are not
Apr 02 17:25:46 <RST38h> inside, a laptop is really a traditional PC
Apr 02 17:25:52 <dockside> not all
Apr 02 17:25:55 <RST38h> netbooks *may* bee soncisdered embedded ;)
Apr 02 17:25:57 <RST38h> At least some
Apr 02 17:25:58 <microlith> logically the only thing that -makes- something embedded is how the hardware is set up
Apr 02 17:26:09 <dockside> ok, so all macs are embedded?
Apr 02 17:26:13 <lbt> heh    l8r anyhow
Apr 02 17:26:19 <RST38h> lbt: N900 is not a general purpose computer
Apr 02 17:26:25 <w00t_> RST38h: to you, maybe
Apr 02 17:26:27 * b-man17 uses his N900 like a laptop - heck, i write/compile software on the device
Apr 02 17:26:28 <microlith> RST38h: it isn't?
Apr 02 17:26:32 <w00t_> I'd disagree
Apr 02 17:26:35 <RST38h> lbt: Try some general purpose computations on it and see what your experience is
Apr 02 17:26:37 <nidO> it seems quite obvious to me. if you can significantly expand on / alter the feature set (either hardware or software) from how it came out of the box, it's not embedded
Apr 02 17:26:40 <nidO> if you cant, it is
Apr 02 17:26:43 <RST38h> lbt: Start with Matlab ;)
Apr 02 17:26:44 <nidO> I dont see the complication
Apr 02 17:26:56 <ezjd> alden: sorry I can't get meego running so I am guessing ... you might need to check what x.org driver is available
Apr 02 17:27:00 <microlith> RST38h: scale is something entirely different :)
Apr 02 17:27:03 <RST38h> lbt: Then try LISP and Prolog, for generality
Apr 02 17:27:10 <lbt> RST38h: they all run
Apr 02 17:27:11 <sykopomp> RST38h: Lisp*
Apr 02 17:27:12 <RST38h> lbt: Take notice of performance
Apr 02 17:27:16 <lbt> so
Apr 02 17:27:23 <lbt> big deal ... it's slow
Apr 02 17:27:28 <RST38h> lbt: And the amount of stuff you can put in, before the system folds due to lack of resources
Apr 02 17:27:32 <dockside> why would ru something resource hungry on a lightweight device? you do that on a remote machine
Apr 02 17:27:34 <lbt> compile Qt on a 486
Apr 02 17:27:41 <arjan> lbt:bwahahaha
Apr 02 17:27:44 <RST38h> lbt: So, yes, N900 is not a general purpose computer, it is a pretty nice embedded device though
Apr 02 17:27:51 <microlith> RST38h: by that logic all computers become "embedded" as technology progresses
Apr 02 17:27:54 <w00t_> my 10 year old PC is slow, too, yet that wasn't (and isn't, as far as I'm concerned) considered embedded
Apr 02 17:28:05 <dockside> would take a few months :)
Apr 02 17:28:10 <lbt> RST38h: general purpose is not at all the same as performant
Apr 02 17:28:13 <w00t_> it's a good argument, but it's a very subjective and simplified view
Apr 02 17:28:22 <sykopomp> RST38h: and Lisp is not the same as 'slow'.
Apr 02 17:28:35 <dockside> nope
Apr 02 17:28:49 <nidO> lbt, debatable. if it runs a Qt GUI but is locked down so that it can't do anything beyond what it's shipped as being able to do, I would say it is
Apr 02 17:29:08 <lbt> nidO: nope... that's just licensing
Apr 02 17:29:09 <nidO> (that goes back a while)
Apr 02 17:29:34 <w00t_> I think this raises a much more important issue tbh
Apr 02 17:29:34 <lbt> the vendor *could* write anything nidO
Apr 02 17:29:39 <nidO> licensing or not, if the device can't be altered to do more than it comes out of the box as being able to do, essentially that's embedded
Apr 02 17:29:43 <nidO> thats the definition of the word
Apr 02 17:29:45 <RST38h> lbt: General purpose == "can be used for any purpose other general purpose computers are used for"
Apr 02 17:30:08 <RST38h> lbt: So, your PC is a general purpose computer (let us not argue that). It runs FireFox quite well. Try running Fennec on N900 ;)
Apr 02 17:30:17 <RST38h> lbt: How about OpenOffice? Is it usable?
Apr 02 17:30:18 <lbt> nidO: its *a* use of the word - and applies to a PS3 too
Apr 02 17:30:37 <microlith> RST38h: arbitrary cpu/ram restrictions do not sufficiently define a boundary between embedded and general-purpose
Apr 02 17:30:41 <RST38h> lbt: Most N900 software has to be specifically OPTIMIZED for N900. Hence, it is an embedded system not a gp computer
Apr 02 17:30:44 <lbt> heh - all perfect examples of why the N900 is not embedded
Apr 02 17:30:53 <w00t_> RST38h: so again, is my 10 year old PC embedded?
Apr 02 17:30:59 <lbt> you have to "optimise" for performance
Apr 02 17:31:13 <nidO> RST38h the same goes the other way round. you have to optimise it for performance because it was written for something else
Apr 02 17:31:20 <lbt> but RST38h you're not listening
Apr 02 17:31:25 <RST38h> lbt: To be gp computer, it has to be able to run gp applications. Instead, it runs a set of specifically written apps for a bunch of usage cases that Nokia targeted it for
Apr 02 17:31:26 <nidO> if you write an app from the ground up for the n900 then want to deploy it on a debian system
Apr 02 17:31:33 <nidO> you need to optimise it for that debian system
Apr 02 17:31:41 <nidO> does that make pc's running debian embedded?
Apr 02 17:31:42 <nidO> no.
Apr 02 17:31:52 <RST38h> nid0: If we are talking PC, then in most cases I do not
Apr 02 17:31:52 <microlith> RST38h: by default, I can can make it do above and beyond that
Apr 02 17:31:57 <arjan> guys ;)
Apr 02 17:31:59 <arjan> it's easy
Apr 02 17:32:00 <lbt> nidO: I'm not sure what point you're tryng to make
Apr 02 17:32:03 <arjan> embedded is a way of thinking
Apr 02 17:32:05 <arjan> period.
Apr 02 17:32:07 <lbt> :)
Apr 02 17:32:08 <arjan> nothing more or les
Apr 02 17:32:09 <arjan> s
Apr 02 17:32:13 <lbt> exactly
Apr 02 17:32:19 <arjan> there are dual CPU NHM boxes that are considered embedded
Apr 02 17:32:19 <sykopomp> embedded: "small, crappy computer"
Apr 02 17:32:20 <sykopomp> :D
Apr 02 17:32:21 <RST38h> arjan: this is not really a definition
Apr 02 17:32:21 <arjan> (telco space)
Apr 02 17:32:39 <lbt> RST38h: that's the point
Apr 02 17:32:42 <RST38h> arjan: True, because they lack parts found in gp computers (display, kbd, etc)
Apr 02 17:32:45 <lbt> there is no definition now
Apr 02 17:32:46 * thiago likes arjan's solution
Apr 02 17:32:50 <nidO> lbt: the point is that I disagree with RST38h's argument that the n900 is an embedded system on the basis that software has to be optimized to run on it.
Apr 02 17:32:51 <thiago> "it is if I say so"
Apr 02 17:32:57 <arjan> embedded = thinking, designing and optimizing for a single or very small number of use cases/applications
Apr 02 17:33:01 * w00t_ agrees with arjan
Apr 02 17:33:08 <sykopomp> RST38h: is a wallwart an embedded computer, then?
Apr 02 17:33:23 <arjan> RST38h: actualy those servers may have all of those
Apr 02 17:33:30 <RST38h> sykopomp: Sorry, having trouble following you.
Apr 02 17:33:35 <sykopomp> RST38h: what about a full-sized server with nothing except power and ethernet cables connected to it, with identical specs to the wallwart?
Apr 02 17:33:42 <arjan> n900 is sort of a hybrid, older phones were embedded clearly, but smartphones are moving out of that space
Apr 02 17:33:43 <RST38h> arjan: then they are gp computers used for networking. Happens
Apr 02 17:33:49 <sykopomp> RST38h: I'm talking about something like a sheevaplug :)
Apr 02 17:34:11 <RST38h> sheevaplug is an embedded system, no idea what it has to do to walmart
Apr 02 17:34:13 <lbt> ah... see : [18:25] <lbt> it's more a usage/mentality thing
Apr 02 17:34:20 <sykopomp> RST38h: wall wart.
Apr 02 17:34:21 <microlith> sykopomp: don't use wall-wart to describe a sheevaplug
Apr 02 17:34:25 <microlith> very different
Apr 02 17:34:40 <sykopomp> microlith: that's how I've seen it described.
Apr 02 17:34:40 <RST38h> arjan: Had an ATCC full of such usage cases
Apr 02 17:35:04 <RST38h> arjan: Like "an HP Apollo workstation receiving and displaing weather data from NOAA"
Apr 02 17:35:20 <RST38h> arjan: Still a gp computer though, can run all the gp apps on it
Apr 02 17:35:28 <sykopomp> RST38h: Okay, now how about a full-size computer with hardware that has identical specs, and nothing but an ethernet cable and a power cable connected to it?
Apr 02 17:35:32 <sykopomp> is that embedded? :)
Apr 02 17:35:44 <arjan> hardware is not what makes something embedded
Apr 02 17:36:10 <arjan> the question would be "is the whole end product single purpose (or small number of), or is it designed to be able to do mroe generic work"
Apr 02 17:36:19 <sykopomp> arjan: 'embedded' seems to be strongly tied to 'locked down with proprietary software'
Apr 02 17:36:39 <arjan> if you only want to run one single thing, you optimize towards a small computer sometimes, depending on what that usecase is
Apr 02 17:36:53 <arjan> but if that usecase is "route all the IP traffic in Norway", you don't do that on a 100Mhz ARM
Apr 02 17:37:52 <lbt> embedded == can't hack it to run Doom
Apr 02 17:38:04 <sykopomp> lbt: ipod isn't an embedded device?
Apr 02 17:38:19 <lbt> can you hack it to run Doom?
Apr 02 17:38:22 <arjan> sykopomp: if you ignore the appstore aspect of it, it would be
Apr 02 17:38:22 <sykopomp> yes.
Apr 02 17:38:23 <RST38h> lbt: yes
Apr 02 17:38:23 <lbt> no
Apr 02 17:38:33 <arjan> sykopomp: but with the appstore it's turning general purpose to be honest
Apr 02 17:38:34 * lbt is now religous
Apr 02 17:38:36 <sykopomp> lbt: I ran Doom on my old iPod color :)
Apr 02 17:38:46 <microlith> I don't think hackability removes the embedded tag
Apr 02 17:39:04 <lbt> so it's not embedded. I now bow down to the one true rule of embeddedness.
Apr 02 17:39:08 <sykopomp> arjan: nah, it's turning iApp-purpose.
Apr 02 17:39:49 <w00t_> <groan>
Apr 02 17:42:09 <sykopomp> so MeeGo is planning to have its own sort of app store, no?
Apr 02 17:42:12 <sykopomp> how's that gonna work :)
Apr 02 17:42:23 <arjan> sykopomp: there's multiple of those actually
Apr 02 17:42:32 <arjan> Intel has AppUp; Nokia has OvI
Apr 02 17:42:38 <arjan> I suspect there will be others as well
Apr 02 17:42:52 <arjan> MeeGo will have a "garage" as well (community based thing, sort of like Extras)
Apr 02 17:43:17 <RST38h> arjan: You do know that maemo also has "garage", although it is not the same as extras?
Apr 02 17:43:18 <microlith> and whatever those who adopt the platform set up
Apr 02 17:44:07 <lbt> and there's work afoot to make it more than just 'garage'
Apr 02 17:44:18 <lbt> http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group
Apr 02 17:44:41 * Stskeeps glances at his joggler trying to boot MeeGo
Apr 02 17:44:44 <lbt> which is supported heavily by the maemo.org extras admins/nokians BTW
Apr 02 17:45:02 <lbt> the RWG, not Stskeeps' Joggler
Apr 02 17:45:28 * lbt goes for food whilst his OBS creaks away
Apr 02 17:45:30 <lbt> lr
Apr 02 17:46:35 <RST38h> Will probably end up wrapped in the same amount of red tape as Maemo Extras. Or more, judging from my experience at Intel.
Apr 02 17:46:51 <arjan> RST38h: I realize "garage" and "extras" have various overloaded meanings, and there likely is space for two concepts
Apr 02 17:46:56 <arjan> just need to get defined properly
Apr 02 17:47:21 <arjan> the RWG proposal got sort of sent back by TSG to get more specifics ;)
Apr 02 17:47:23 <sykopomp> well, can you add remote repositories not managed directly by the meego community? :)
Apr 02 17:47:35 <sykopomp> and can you install arbitrary packages?
Apr 02 17:48:06 <RST38h> arjan: garage is a place where you develop your project (has bugzilla, git etc)
Apr 02 17:48:21 <RST38h> arjan: extras is a package repository where users download your software from
Apr 02 17:48:29 <arjan> RST38h: in moblin terms, garage is the appstore-without-a-store, while extras would be "where lots of stuff gets developed"
Apr 02 17:48:39 <arjan> so sort of inside out
Apr 02 17:48:54 <RST38h> arjan: I guess you will have to decide on the single naming
Apr 02 17:49:14 <RST38h> arjan: Probably by looking at OTHER projects to see how words are commonly defined outside MeeGo
Apr 02 17:49:14 <arjan> RST38h: exactly; and I think that's one of the parts RWG proposal needs to fill in before coming back to TSG
Apr 02 17:49:51 <arjan> or pick two entirely new terms ;)
Apr 02 17:50:08 <RST38h> arjan: yea, right, do it the Intel way
Apr 02 17:50:28 <RST38h> arjan: So that in a year, that poor repo is known under 6-8 different names and acronyms
Apr 02 17:51:02 <alden> ezjd: are u running meego in a VM?
Apr 02 17:51:10 <RST38h> and meeting attendees get "the list of commonly used terms" in the invitation emails
Apr 02 17:51:39 <w00t_> RST38h: I don't see how that's relevant to the discussion or helpful
Apr 02 17:52:11 <RST38h> w00t: What is supposed to be relevant?
Apr 02 17:52:37 <w00t_> RST38h: presumably, working on discussing solutions to a problem instead of sniping at people because of their affiliation
Apr 02 17:52:50 <RST38h> w00t: Whom am I sniping at?
Apr 02 17:53:18 <w00t_> I'll leave it there, if you really don't think you could have worded that more constructively, then... :)
Apr 02 17:53:37 * RST38h preemptively facepalms at w00t
Apr 02 17:58:34 <Votan> u should only use the expression "sniping at" in a sentence with usa so u at least get ur own entryon the us terrorist list
Apr 02 17:59:04 <microlith> :w
Apr 02 17:59:07 <microlith> ...
Apr 02 17:59:09 <microlith> wrong window
Apr 02 17:59:16 <w00t_> happens to the best of us :)
Apr 02 17:59:36 <Votan> yeah, bash.org is ful with "oops worng window"s
Apr 02 17:59:39 * lcuk sent multtiple text messages last night to the wrong window
Apr 02 18:00:13 <microlith> at least I was only trying to save a file :)
Apr 02 18:00:44 <lcuk> its ok i was telling tracy jake got up in the middle of the night and thought it was bathtime
Apr 02 18:01:31 <ezjd> alden: not yet
Apr 02 18:02:22 <Stskeeps> arjan: would patches to kernel package to make it more sane to add new devices/configs be welcome?
Apr 02 18:02:36 <Stskeeps> at the moment it seems not very welcoming
Apr 02 18:02:36 <ezjd> alden: I am moving back to netbook image and doing the replace kernel thing
Apr 02 18:02:58 <alden> ezjd: ah k.. you can download CosmoHill's vdi if u like
Apr 02 18:03:11 <alden> ezjd: i think have the url somewhere
Apr 02 18:03:15 <ezjd> alden: where is it?
Apr 02 18:03:33 <alden> ezjd: http://cross-lfs.org/~cosmo/meego/meego-iso.vdi
Apr 02 18:04:09 <lcuk> alden, is cosmohills image based on the closed nokia bundle?
Apr 02 18:04:34 <Stskeeps> it's x86, how can it be
Apr 02 18:04:35 <alden> lcuk: im not sure.. im running it.. how can i tell?
Apr 02 18:04:44 <alden> it is x86
Apr 02 18:04:57 <lcuk> Stskeeps, that was why i asked, question answered
Apr 02 18:04:57 <ezjd> alden: downloading ... Thx!
Apr 02 18:12:53 <TSCHAKeee2> damn, i leave for a bit
Apr 02 18:12:59 <TSCHAKeee2> and there's a massive discussion
Apr 02 18:13:03 <TSCHAKeee2> darn
Apr 02 18:13:05 <TSCHAKeee2> :P
Apr 02 18:13:32 <RST38h> I can always drop in omething inflammatory again =)
Apr 02 18:13:46 <Votan> hey, let's start a discussion about rpm vs deb!
Apr 02 18:13:55 <sykopomp> they're both terrible!
Apr 02 18:13:57 <sykopomp> :D
Apr 02 18:14:00 <RST38h> Like... "Hopefully, MeeGo will NOT use Tracker!"
Apr 02 18:14:11 <thiago> it's using tracker
Apr 02 18:14:16 <TSCHAKeee2> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Apr 02 18:14:20 <TSCHAKeee2> well i really don't care
Apr 02 18:14:24 <TSCHAKeee2> but.. :)
Apr 02 18:15:06 <sykopomp> what's wrong with tracker?! :)
Apr 02 18:16:06 <TSCHAKeee2> it was...written...by programmers...who work...for a company...that supports RPM! HA! EEVOOOLLL!
Apr 02 18:16:10 <TSCHAKeee2> kidding. ;)
Apr 02 18:16:39 <TSCHAKeee2> six degress of EVOL
Apr 02 18:16:43 <TSCHAKeee2> :P
Apr 02 18:16:54 <Stskeeps> it's funny people are arguing about very high level issues while there is plenty of packages and architecture to grab at and complain about..
Apr 02 18:16:57 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 18:17:07 <TSCHAKeee2> no shit
Apr 02 18:17:32 <Votan> oh, talking about high level issue. The wallpaper sucks! :>
Apr 02 18:17:40 <sykopomp> mmm... writing lisp/factor games for MeeGo would be pretty fun :D
Apr 02 18:18:06 <Stskeeps> so, how many of you had to deal with 'my' developer images?
Apr 02 18:18:45 <TSCHAKeee2> what are 'my' developer images? ;)
Apr 02 18:18:46 <Stskeeps> http://wiki.meego.com/Developing_in_a_Meego_Environment tatis
Apr 02 18:18:48 <Stskeeps> that is
Apr 02 18:18:58 <TSCHAKeee2> oh i will shortly
Apr 02 18:19:23 <Stskeeps> OK, will gladly take feedback. This is not how i think SDK will look in future, it is just what we have for this codedrop
Apr 02 18:19:59 <alden> gah. whats the keyboard shortcut to close a x11 window?
Apr 02 18:20:06 <Stskeeps> alt-f4? ;p
Apr 02 18:20:29 <alden> i spawned an app that i cant close
Apr 02 18:20:37 <alden> or switch to another app
Apr 02 18:20:48 <alden> alt-f4 dosent work
Apr 02 18:21:03 <ferringb> ctrl + q, or ctrl + shift + q, depending on the app.
Apr 02 18:21:49 <Stskeeps> install twm
Apr 02 18:21:51 <Stskeeps> yum install twm
Apr 02 18:21:52 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 18:23:02 * lcuk makes a new package manager called omnomnom
Apr 02 18:23:15 <alden> dosent work
Apr 02 18:23:21 <alden> cant even tell if its hung
Apr 02 18:23:29 <alden> oh wait!
Apr 02 18:23:32 <alden> its hung
Apr 02 18:23:54 <alden> the dials on xclock show 11:30PM
Apr 02 18:23:58 <thiago> lcuk: at least choose a name that's a palindrome
Apr 02 18:24:11 <alden> ive been trying to close the window for 15 mins thinking its a keystroke problem :P
Apr 02 18:25:04 <lcuk> omnomnom != monmonmo
Apr 02 18:25:44 <ezjd> what is user name/pwd for VDI?
Apr 02 18:26:26 <lcuk> try meego/meego
Apr 02 18:26:30 <lcuk> or root/meego
Apr 02 18:27:31 <ezjd> got it root/meego
Apr 02 18:27:39 <lcuk> oooh just got a linked in request from someone with 10 years of android experience
Apr 02 18:28:04 <sykopomp> lcuk: very nice.
Apr 02 18:28:09 <thiago> lcuk: good one
Apr 02 18:28:39 <thiago> maybe he had experience with robotics and that's nothing to do with Google's platform
Apr 02 18:28:46 <RST38h> lcuk: from beijing, no doubt?
Apr 02 18:28:58 <_Sky_> is there any easy way i can "install" meego, the grub install option does nothing, i actually boot from the usb image converted to a vdi in virtualbox but all changes are made in the ram
Apr 02 18:29:48 <gambit_> hi all this might seam like a dumb question how does one install meego onto their netbooks?
Apr 02 18:30:10 <lcuk> RST38h, dunno, where do i find location listed on profile?
Apr 02 18:30:18 * lcuk never considers such things
Apr 02 18:30:35 <gambit_> hu?
Apr 02 18:30:59 <lcuk> i just noticed a massive amount of keywords that someone would justifiably need to work for about half their life towards - but photo makes them look about 10
Apr 02 18:35:28 <gambit_> so i'm guessing no one can help me with my install demema
Apr 02 18:36:03 <lcuk> gambit_, meego wiki has install instructions
Apr 02 18:36:09 <lcuk> that plenty of people have managed to walk through?
Apr 02 18:36:18 <lcuk> but its not an end user ready thing yet
Apr 02 18:36:41 <gambit_> I'm on the Wiki I can not locate the install help part of it
Apr 02 18:36:43 <sykopomp> gambit_: http://wiki.meego.com/Developing_in_a_Meego_Environment
Apr 02 18:37:03 <Stskeeps> er, no, that's for building packages
Apr 02 18:37:18 <gambit_> ah that would me the issue i was looking for a the key word install not develop
Apr 02 18:40:48 <_Sky_> thank you for the link sykopomp
Apr 02 18:40:48 <malcolmlewis> Hi, is there a tool to configure the network from the command line on the core image, or do I need to manually create an ifcfg file?
Apr 02 18:41:23 <a-saint> hello I was wondering if meego is out for N900 nokia phone
Apr 02 18:41:51 <Stskeeps> meego.com
Apr 02 18:41:58 <_Sky_> yes there are n900 images on the website
Apr 02 18:42:34 <TSCHAKeee2> a-saint: PLEASE READ THE DISCLAIMERS AND WARNINGS
Apr 02 18:42:57 <TSCHAKeee2> a-saint: THIS IS MERELY A CODE DROP TO TEST THAT THE N900 CAN BOOT INTO THE BASE PARTS OF THE MEEGO STACK!
Apr 02 18:43:18 <tripzero> most people won't find it useful
Apr 02 18:43:20 <tripzero> ...yet
Apr 02 18:43:48 <a-saint> TSCHAKeee2 so it's not a final release yet for n900
Apr 02 18:43:56 <_Sky_> malcolmlewis , do you just need to configure your network for this session only or do you want to set up network so that it is configured at startup ?
Apr 02 18:44:15 * TSCHAKeee2 thwaps a-saint up side the head for being stupid.
Apr 02 18:44:55 <Stskeeps> TSCHAKeee2: a bit rude when he did realize it :)
Apr 02 18:44:58 <a-saint> TSCHAKeee2 stupid is my last name :P
Apr 02 18:45:01 <Stskeeps> a-saint: it's not even a beta release
Apr 02 18:45:17 <TSCHAKeee2> a-saint: what you get is basically a terminal window.
Apr 02 18:45:21 <TSCHAKeee2> a-saint: X... and an xterm
Apr 02 18:45:45 <Stskeeps> and the entire Trunk
Apr 02 18:45:46 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 18:45:49 <a-saint> TSCHAKeee2 ok that's better now i can see the light :D
Apr 02 18:45:51 <Stskeeps> which people seem not to realize
Apr 02 18:45:51 <malcolmlewis> @_Sky_ I'm just booting from a SHDC card, so just the session at present
Apr 02 18:46:26 <_Sky_> simple network would be just with: ifconfig eth0 yourip; route add default gw yourgateway; echo nameserver yournameserver > /etc/resolv.conf
Apr 02 18:48:26 <_Sky_> i use automatic ip/route/dns (also called dhcp) at home, worked out of the box for me, no network configuration needed
Apr 02 18:48:56 <a-saint> TSCHAKeee2 ok one more question! once it's released will it be available from the update manager of N900 and will it erase everything!
Apr 02 18:49:09 <tripzero> a-saint, no, it probably won't
Apr 02 18:49:12 <_Sky_> :D
Apr 02 18:49:56 <cyberkonsult> yum install twm gives: Error 404 : http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/Dev... 3a8a7...-primary.sqlite.bz2
Apr 02 18:50:23 <RST38h> ah, the repos are up
Apr 02 18:50:26 <a-saint> tripzero we (users) will have to download the image and then install it to the phone!
Apr 02 18:50:34 <tripzero> a-saint, probably
Apr 02 18:50:52 <tripzero> a-saint, if you aren't a developer, idk why you'd want meego on the n900 anytime soon
Apr 02 18:51:15 <cyberkonsult> there is a file-447...primary.sqlite.bz2 whats up with the long erronous filename??
Apr 02 18:52:27 <a-saint> tripzero well I've been hearing about it quite a time and then someone said it was released so I was curious (plus it works on rpm) I use fedora so basically I will be more familliar plus I am guessing it would be better
Apr 02 18:53:08 <tripzero> a-saint, it'd undoubtedly be better... once it matures a bit
Apr 02 18:53:59 <cyberkonsult> hot damned! Is it the wrong checksum bq I use another kernel??
Apr 02 18:55:30 <a-saint> tripzero then I will wait and be ready (adding that it's gonna be nokias used software and then provide support for it and n900 is a nokia phone)
Apr 02 18:56:19 <Stskeeps> cyberkonsult: could you paste the whole error please?
Apr 02 18:57:05 <cyberkonsult> Stskeeps.. eh..its in a VirtualBox.. dont know how to copy text ....
Apr 02 18:57:11 <Stskeeps> screenshots work
Apr 02 18:57:11 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 18:57:18 <jeremiah> It will be a long time before MeeGo is ready to run as a production OS on the N900
Apr 02 18:57:25 <Stskeeps> yes, my
Apr 02 18:57:26 <Stskeeps> may
Apr 02 18:57:27 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 18:57:30 <cyberkonsult> hang on then..
Apr 02 18:57:31 <Stskeeps> well, at least first release
Apr 02 18:57:36 <jeremiah> Nope - longer than that
Apr 02 18:57:41 <jeremiah> No matter what they say
Apr 02 18:57:55 <MiXu-> may doesn,t mean production
Apr 02 18:57:57 <Stskeeps> you're assuming that xterm is the only thing accomplished
Apr 02 18:57:58 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 18:58:08 <postmanPechkin> and when will first release be?
Apr 02 18:58:10 <mtnbkr> jeremiah: does the release of MeeGo  imply that there will be no more updates to Maemo5?
Apr 02 18:58:12 <thiago> postmanPechkin: may
Apr 02 18:58:19 <thiago> mtnbkr: no, not at all
Apr 02 18:58:24 <jeremiah> Stskeeps: You're assuming I haven't seen the ARM sources :P
Apr 02 18:58:31 <thiago> mtnbkr: there will be more Maemo5 updates, as well as a Maemo6 release
Apr 02 18:58:43 <thiago> even though Maemo6 is converging on MeeGo
Apr 02 18:59:02 <mtnbkr> thiago: Oh... Awesome. thanks.  Love my N900 and looking forward to some more updates :)
Apr 02 18:59:05 <postmanPechkin> :-)
Apr 02 18:59:10 <thiago> PR1.2 is just out
Apr 02 18:59:17 <Stskeeps> actually, not yet :P
Apr 02 18:59:19 <lcuk> PR1.2 SDK
Apr 02 18:59:20 <MiXu-> it's a bit hazy whats the relation between maemo6 and meego
Apr 02 18:59:24 <thiago> ok, PR1.2 SDK
Apr 02 18:59:25 <jeremiah> Yeah, SDK only
Apr 02 18:59:28 <RST38h> That has been a reckless statement =)
Apr 02 18:59:36 <jeremiah> Indeed.
Apr 02 18:59:41 <tripzero> any idea when pr1.2 is going to land?
Apr 02 18:59:48 * nidO can just feel 150 idlers in this channel reaching for app manager
Apr 02 18:59:49 <jeremiah> tripzero: Ask Nokia.
Apr 02 18:59:52 <leinir> tripzero: Soon(TM) ;)
Apr 02 18:59:55 <tripzero> w00t
Apr 02 19:00:19 <MiXu-> I'm not holding my breath :)
Apr 02 19:00:22 <jeremiah> But, in all fairness, when they drop the SDK, the next version soon follows.
Apr 02 19:00:53 <jeremiah> Drop in the sense of release a new version of the SDK
Apr 02 19:01:02 <leinir> *nods* Yeah
Apr 02 19:01:48 <lcuk> hey jeremiah \o
Apr 02 19:02:01 <jeremiah> lcuk: What's up lcuk!
Apr 02 19:02:01 <cyberkonsult> Stskeeps: http://www.cyberkonsult.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/yum_install.png
Apr 02 19:02:05 <jeremiah> How are you?
Apr 02 19:02:34 <lcuk> im good thanks, busy tho :)
Apr 02 19:02:44 <jeremiah> lcuk: That is good news. :)
Apr 02 19:02:59 <jeremiah> cyberkonsult: What is that repo you are pulling from?
Apr 02 19:03:11 <ezjd> cyberkonsult: try zypper and ignore errors
Apr 02 19:03:14 <jeremiah> mobile-central.org?
Apr 02 19:03:22 * lcuk hopes to have a rest soon
Apr 02 19:03:34 <sykopomp> I thought MeeGo was debian based!
Apr 02 19:03:34 <cyberkonsult> zipper?? as in 'zipper install twm'
Apr 02 19:03:54 <leinir> zypper
Apr 02 19:03:59 <leinir> not zipper :)
Apr 02 19:04:10 <jeremiah> zypper
Apr 02 19:04:15 <ezjd> yes. I tried zypper update and it worked until not space :(
Apr 02 19:04:33 * jeremiah smacks sykopomp with an old copy of the MeeGo mailing list.
Apr 02 19:04:42 <cyberkonsult> zypper works!! :)
Apr 02 19:04:55 <cyberkonsult> nope
Apr 02 19:05:19 <jeremiah> ezjd: You ran out of space on your device?
Apr 02 19:05:24 <cyberkonsult> Failed to download -/repodata/repomd.xml fro repo.meego.com.....
Apr 02 19:05:46 <jeremiah> cyberkonsult: Is that the last line of output from zypper?
Apr 02 19:05:56 <jeremiah> Can you put the whole output in pastebin?
Apr 02 19:06:26 <cyberkonsult> nope, Abort,retry,ignore (a) and it WORKED!
Apr 02 19:06:34 <ezjd> jeremiah: yes, it is weired as df shows only 125MB as root while /dev/sda1 has 400MB from fdisk
Apr 02 19:06:55 <jeremiah> ezjd: That is kinda weird.
Apr 02 19:07:35 <alden> cyberkonsult: you can ignore (i) that
Apr 02 19:08:03 <cyberkonsult> alden: thanks..
Apr 02 19:08:04 <ezjd> anyway even 400MB will be too small for developing, I am looking into cloning a VDI with more space
Apr 02 19:08:29 <cyberkonsult> now, twm: unable to open display.. neet to install X eh?
Apr 02 19:08:50 <alden> cyberkonsult: yeah, i just did zypper install xorg-*
Apr 02 19:08:54 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: that discussion was on basis of debian including a bunch of arm fixes and such over time etc and hence meego can never be as production ready?
Apr 02 19:08:54 <lcuk> ezjd, be lucky you have 400mb!
Apr 02 19:09:03 <ezjd> you need to start X server firtsly (Xorg, for exmaple )
Apr 02 19:10:12 <jeremiah> Stskeeps: My understanding is that 'production' quality is more likely to be Julyish, rather than Mayish.
Apr 02 19:10:18 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: right
Apr 02 19:10:47 <cyberkonsult> good grief: problem xorg-x11-server .. requires .. soluution 1 blabla solution 2 blabla ...(scrambles my head)
Apr 02 19:10:49 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: but do i not remember correctly that someone made that argument?
Apr 02 19:11:08 <Stskeeps> cyberkonsult: dependancy hell is something linux learnt well from linux
Apr 02 19:11:21 <jeremiah> Stskeeps: I thought you said 'may'
Apr 02 19:11:31 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: yeah, sorry, sidetracking a bit
Apr 02 19:11:34 <jeremiah> But perhaps you meant may as in Maybe, not May.
Apr 02 19:11:58 <jeremiah> :)
Apr 02 19:12:04 <Stskeeps> i meant May, which i'm starting to wonder if is too early for a release too
Apr 02 19:12:17 <Stskeeps> judging by the fact it's well, april
Apr 02 19:12:28 <postmanPechkin> at the beginng of the may or at end?
Apr 02 19:12:46 <Stskeeps> true
Apr 02 19:12:50 <postmanPechkin> *beginnnig
Apr 02 19:13:25 <jeremiah> It would be totally awesome if all the peices fell into place for a May release.
Apr 02 19:13:35 <jeremiah> But it took till the last minute for Day one.
Apr 02 19:13:52 <jeremiah> So I imagine MeeGo will need as much time as it can get
Apr 02 19:14:12 <jeremiah> There is a lot to do, while a lot has actually been done.
Apr 02 19:14:17 <Stskeeps> :nod:
Apr 02 19:15:00 <Stskeeps> anyway, my point about debian arm stability vs fedora arm stability.. if debian arm is more stable than fedora arm for instance, doesn't this mean that debian hasn't been doing their duty and upstreaming fixes?
Apr 02 19:15:32 <Stskeeps> because technically the arm support should be similar if using upstream :P
Apr 02 19:15:54 <jeremiah> The logic doesn't follow.
Apr 02 19:15:58 <Stskeeps> sorry :P
Apr 02 19:16:01 * Stskeeps is tired
Apr 02 19:16:16 <jeremiah> If the distros _pull_ from upstream, then it is up to them to pull and make sure their support is complete.
Apr 02 19:16:32 <jeremiah> If debian is more complete, then perhaps fedora hasn't been keeping up?
Apr 02 19:16:40 <jeremiah> Plus, I suspect debian had more to start with
Apr 02 19:16:53 <lcuk> it depends where the patches are - you are both right
Apr 02 19:16:53 <Stskeeps> mm
Apr 02 19:16:57 <jeremiah> They are the 'universal' operating system that has been running on many arches for a while
Apr 02 19:17:07 <jeremiah> I mean MeeGo won't run MIPS
Apr 02 19:17:10 <jeremiah> But debian does
Apr 02 19:17:12 <lcuk> kernel changes for arm should obviously be upstreamed
Apr 02 19:17:20 <lcuk> then both get best
Apr 02 19:17:27 <jeremiah> lcuk: Yeah, but debian doesn't make all those changes
Apr 02 19:17:36 <lcuk> of course
Apr 02 19:17:37 <jeremiah> Those changes come from places like, oh, TI
Apr 02 19:17:41 <lcuk> then its down to individual apps
Apr 02 19:18:00 <lcuk> and each has its own patch inclusion policies and trusted maintainers and stuff
Apr 02 19:18:01 <jeremiah> No, it is more down to who maintains the kernel source in the distro
Apr 02 19:18:12 <lcuk> so actually getting upstream for every patch from every os is difficult
Apr 02 19:18:16 <jeremiah> And there is a reason why Linus uses debian! :p
Apr 02 19:18:56 <lcuk> cos hes like the rest of us and lazy :p
Apr 02 19:19:04 <jeremiah> heh.
Apr 02 19:19:06 <jeremiah> Inded.
Apr 02 19:19:10 <jeremiah> or indeed even
Apr 02 19:19:11 <ali1234> you know, sending patches upstream isn't just a matter of sending an email and it's done
Apr 02 19:19:23 <lcuk> yeah ali1234 thats my point
Apr 02 19:19:29 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: [citation needed] on debian being his choice of distro :P
Apr 02 19:19:47 <ali1234> sometimes you have to really fight for it
Apr 02 19:19:58 <ali1234> sometimes you send it and hear nothing for months
Apr 02 19:20:09 <ali1234> sometimes it is easy
Apr 02 19:21:04 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: in 2001 it was RH and suse, in 2009 it was fedora..
Apr 02 19:21:18 <ali1234> with git it should be easy to see who's kernel is closest to mainline, and who has not been sending their patches upstream
Apr 02 19:21:40 <Stskeeps> jeremiah: http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20090202 :P
Apr 02 19:22:46 <kunguz> Hey guys, what is the localhost login and password for the MeeGo 1.0?
Apr 02 19:23:42 <Stskeeps> kunguz: root/meego
Apr 02 19:23:57 <kunguz> thanks
Apr 02 19:24:13 <kunguz> How do I open the Gui?
Apr 02 19:24:21 <Stskeeps> what gui?
Apr 02 19:24:21 <jeremiah> Can't find the quote, and my googling seems to indicate I'm mistaken
Apr 02 19:24:21 <Stskeeps> :P
Apr 02 19:24:27 <jeremiah> kunguz: There is no GUI
Apr 02 19:24:28 <Stskeeps> fair enough
Apr 02 19:24:33 <kunguz> Stskeeps: ok :)
Apr 02 19:25:04 <kunguz> Stskeeps: there will be a gui, right?
Apr 02 19:25:10 <postmanPechkin> no, no
Apr 02 19:25:16 <sykopomp> kunguz: nah, CLI is hardcore.
Apr 02 19:25:18 <jeremiah> kunguz: Eventually.
Apr 02 19:25:19 <sykopomp> no need for GUI
Apr 02 19:25:34 <postmanPechkin> no need at all
Apr 02 19:25:45 <kunguz> I guess you are no serious with your sayings?
Apr 02 19:25:51 <sykopomp> no. I'm joking.
Apr 02 19:25:55 <sykopomp> :P
Apr 02 19:25:57 <Stskeeps> a bit of sarcasm was detected, yes
Apr 02 19:26:00 <kunguz> :P Nice one :D
Apr 02 19:26:40 <alden> lol @ no ui
Apr 02 19:26:40 <kunguz> So here comes one last question: will there be a support for INTEL GMA 500 graphics accelerator?
Apr 02 19:26:57 <jeremiah> ?
Apr 02 19:27:22 <Stskeeps> kunguz: i kinda hope they push out IEGD with meego 1.0 support / xserver 1.8
Apr 02 19:27:40 <Stskeeps> kunguz: however, i managed to earlier boot xserver 1.6 on meego :P
Apr 02 19:27:46 <Stskeeps> with a iegd driver
Apr 02 19:28:02 <kunguz> Even with IEGD on my sony vai what I got is a white screen fade in and fade out.
Apr 02 19:28:20 <kunguz> Before I tried it with moblin
Apr 02 19:28:22 <lcuk> kunguz, cool
Apr 02 19:28:42 <lcuk> you installed a torch application
Apr 02 19:28:51 <postmanPechkin> )
Apr 02 19:28:52 <lcuk> with fancy graphics by the sounds of it
Apr 02 19:29:31 <kunguz> lcuk: unconciously yes a torch app :D
Apr 02 19:30:07 <kunguz> I really wish Intel will release a more stable driver for this one
Apr 02 19:30:16 <ali1234> GMA500 actually has a SGX GPU just like the N900... and that is why there is no open driver for it
Apr 02 19:30:29 <Stskeeps> i don't care about no open driver, i care about being able to get one :P
Apr 02 19:30:50 <ali1234> well there is a crappy closed driver for GMA500 that doesn't work very well...
Apr 02 19:30:52 <kunguz> Stskeeps: me, too. I can even accept a closed source one
Apr 02 19:31:14 <kunguz> ali1234: how to download? and which distro supports it?
Apr 02 19:35:56 <ali1234> kunguz: well some version of ubuntu supports it, because dell sells mini 12 with ubuntu on
Apr 02 19:38:00 <jwhite> are there any mirrors for the repos?
Apr 02 19:39:55 <Maarak> are there any instructions for creating a bootable usb stick for an atom based netbook?
Apr 02 19:40:06 <Maarak> didn't see any on the wiki or website
Apr 02 19:41:44 <tripzero> Maarak, use dd
Apr 02 19:42:11 <Maarak> not sure what you mean by dd, direct download?
Apr 02 19:42:25 <tripzero> Maarak, are you using linux?
Apr 02 19:42:30 <tripzero> dd is a command
Apr 02 19:42:40 <Maarak> not right now, on my win7 box
Apr 02 19:42:54 <tripzero> try UNetBootin
Apr 02 19:43:01 <tripzero> i think it runs on the windows
Apr 02 19:43:28 <Maarak> I've used that before with other distros
Apr 02 19:43:30 <Maarak> should work fine
Apr 02 19:44:47 <Maarak> just to make sure I'm downloading the right thing, from here http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/devel/trunk/images/ it's the meego-preview-netbook-core-20100330-001.usbimg
Apr 02 19:44:56 <tripzero> sire
Apr 02 19:44:58 <Maarak> and just rename the file to .img?
Apr 02 19:45:03 <tripzero> yep
Apr 02 19:45:10 <Maarak> cool, thanks alot
Apr 02 19:45:36 <Maarak> I ran moblin for a while on my netbook, how different is meego?
Apr 02 19:47:10 <lcuk> why did you stop running it?
Apr 02 19:47:58 <tripzero> Maarak, iirc, the img doesn't have a UI
Apr 02 19:48:05 <Maarak> wanted something a little more robust
Apr 02 19:48:07 <tripzero> so it'll be really different right now
Apr 02 19:48:35 <Maarak> lol, well I think I'll try it out, but think I'll wait for a UI to install
Apr 02 19:48:55 <Maarak> running crunchpad linux on it currently
Apr 02 19:59:08 <alden> im struggling with some xorg.conf related issues
Apr 02 19:59:16 <alden> i think it has to do with framebuffer but not sure
Apr 02 19:59:28 <alden> http://dpaste.com/178910/ and http://dpaste.com/178911/
Apr 02 19:59:38 <alden> are xorg log and xorg.conf respectively
Apr 02 20:00:10 <alden> x starts up fine when xorg.conf is absent, ie. with built-in configuration
Apr 02 20:00:24 <alden> but i need to configure it to get the mouse to work
Apr 02 20:14:32 <qgil_> Loking at http://wiki.meego.com/Who%27s_who ...
Apr 02 20:14:50 <qgil_> is it only me seing a bit weird this "Maemo stakeholders" and "Nokia stakeholders"?
Apr 02 20:14:58 <qgil_> I mean "Moblin stakeholders"
Apr 02 20:15:19 <qgil_> "Official representatives of the Maemo community"
Apr 02 20:15:31 <qgil_> sounds like the Davos Summit
Apr 02 20:17:16 <postmanPechkin> )
Apr 02 20:18:19 <postmanPechkin> so, who are those Officials?
Apr 02 20:18:40 <qgil_> I'm for keeping the MeeGo structure on top (based on announcements) = official roles
Apr 02 20:18:59 <qgil_> and then the rest of MeeGo community members by alphabetical sorting
Apr 02 20:19:25 <qgil_> currently there is many people with a factual role, still not announced officially...
Apr 02 20:19:45 <qgil_> ... but still I think it's good to keep the difference since official announcements need to come
Apr 02 20:20:11 <qgil_> otherwise any Nokia or Intel guy can be a suspect of having a MeeGo role, and this creates confusion
Apr 02 20:20:18 <postmanPechkin> so, i will take nickname like 000000001, so i'll be the first))
Apr 02 20:21:54 <qgil_> postmanPechkin: if that makes you happy
Apr 02 20:22:26 <postmanPechkin> of course)
Apr 02 20:22:59 <DawnFoster> qgil_: absolutely agree. It's a weird distinction.
Apr 02 20:23:14 <DawnFoster> also, does that page scale as we grow?
Apr 02 20:23:27 <DawnFoster> right now we have over 5000 members of meego.com
Apr 02 20:23:47 <qgil_> DawnFoster: surely not but there is nothing better by now - I have already linked at http://meego.com/community/members
Apr 02 20:23:56 <DawnFoster> I think we keep it for now
Apr 02 20:23:59 <DawnFoster> agreed.
Apr 02 20:24:01 <qgil_> DawnFoster: working on the page as we speak...
Apr 02 20:24:32 <DawnFoster> I'm just thinking that we encourage people to update profiles or user pages on the wiki with more information as another way to learn about each other
Apr 02 20:25:39 <postmanPechkin> are you from FBI?
Apr 02 20:28:53 * mtnbkr hears crickets
Apr 02 20:28:59 <_Sky_> No , they are 'just' the community coordinators :)
Apr 02 20:30:12 <postmanPechkin> cool, i want to be coordinated)
Apr 02 20:32:04 <DawnFoster> how do you know that we aren't also from the FBI (double agents) :)
Apr 02 20:32:50 <zeos> has anyone gone from moblin to this new release yet?
Apr 02 20:32:59 <postmanPechkin> i am from ÃÐÓ
Apr 02 20:33:13 <lcuk> DawnFoster, why would people from FaceBook Investigations care about meego :p
Apr 02 20:33:50 <w00t_> speaking of facebook..
Apr 02 20:34:01 <w00t_> does anyone have any idea where libsocialweb's source went?
Apr 02 20:34:10 <postmanPechkin> it's much ruthless thing)
Apr 02 20:34:27 <w00t_> DawnFoster: ^^? since it was a moblin component, perhaps you know someone who might know
Apr 02 20:35:55 <DawnFoster> w00t_ hmmm, not sure. I wasn't really involved in Moblin.
Apr 02 20:36:16 <w00t_> sigh
Apr 02 20:36:27 <DawnFoster> and it's Friday afternoon here in the US, so not sure how many people are still around to find out.
Apr 02 20:36:35 <w00t_> it appears to have vanished off git.moblin.org, and I really want a copy to toy with :(
Apr 02 20:36:42 <w00t_> but thanks anyway
Apr 02 20:36:57 <lcuk> :(  bitrot
Apr 02 20:38:17 <th0br0> good evening everyone.
Apr 02 20:38:31 <DawnFoster> evening th0br0
Apr 02 20:38:32 <_Sky_> it might be a little bit to early but i ask myself how you solve the problem with different screen resolutions, because meebo is a netbook AND a handheld os. What do i have to do as developer to make my qt gui application fit and look nice on both of them ?
Apr 02 20:38:39 <postmanPechkin> good evening
Apr 02 20:38:46 <_Sky_> *meego
Apr 02 20:40:11 <_Sky_> do i have to make 2 gui's or should i better work with sizers and scale everything ?
Apr 02 20:40:33 <lcuk> as a designer the resolution can vary wildly on the same device:  1024 * 758 or 768 * 1024 is a simple example
Apr 02 20:40:47 <lcuk> 768 *
Apr 02 20:41:55 <th0br0> uh, where is that qemu image i saw mentioned on the ml?
Apr 02 20:42:06 <_Sky_> if you turn the device , you mean ?
Apr 02 20:42:14 <lcuk> _Sky_, different apps have different requirements, some like simple scaling, others are more complex and require different ui totally
Apr 02 20:42:17 <lcuk> yes
Apr 02 20:43:02 <_Sky_> ok thats a good answer :) i'll keep that in mind
Apr 02 20:44:01 <odin_> are we a happy community ?
Apr 02 20:44:16 * _Sky_ is very happy
Apr 02 20:44:22 <postmanPechkin> yes)
Apr 02 20:49:10 <qgil_> DawnFoster: http://wiki.meego.com/Who's_who
Apr 02 20:50:44 <DawnFoster> looks much better!
Apr 02 20:50:58 <DawnFoster> it's easier to find people
Apr 02 20:51:22 <lbt> be nice if the people links/profiles had more info or links to the wiki Users: pages
Apr 02 20:52:12 <_Sky_> what do i need to do to get into the other community members list :D
Apr 02 20:52:23 <DawnFoster> I wonder if we should break out maintainers / people with commit access as soon as we actually have that info.
Apr 02 20:52:47 <lbt> why?
Apr 02 20:52:56 <th0br0> DawnFoster: without any order or structure?
Apr 02 20:52:56 <DawnFoster> it will help people know who is in charge of which project elements.
Apr 02 20:52:58 <lbt> are they more important than wiki editors?
Apr 02 20:53:15 <lbt> or bugzilla reporters... :)
Apr 02 20:53:30 <lbt> if you need that info you can look in the package details
Apr 02 20:53:30 <postmanPechkin> more
Apr 02 20:53:57 <lbt> wb jebba ;)
Apr 02 20:54:04 <jebba> can you charge the battery on N900 and meego?    hey lbt
Apr 02 20:54:08 <DawnFoster> lbt: true, but I was thinking that it would give a little more transparency into the people responsible for the code
Apr 02 20:54:21 <qgil_> lbt: I will star putting avatar and more infor in my profile  :)
Apr 02 20:54:29 <lcuk> qgil_, shouldnt all the lists be alphabetic?
Apr 02 20:54:39 <lbt> qgil_: http://wiki.meego.com/User:Lbt
Apr 02 20:54:57 <qgil_> lcuk: go ahead, I got a bit tired copying moving pasting  :)
Apr 02 20:55:10 <lcuk> i never got beyond having to resign in the  stuff
Apr 02 20:55:12 <DawnFoster> I agree with lcuk about all lists being alphabetical
Apr 02 20:55:14 <lcuk> page does look cleaner tho
Apr 02 20:55:36 <_Sky_> lbt: nice linux devices list :D
Apr 02 20:55:52 <lbt> jebba: there's a fully OSS image and that has no power mgmt
Apr 02 20:55:59 <jebba> ok thx
Apr 02 20:56:05 <qgil_> lbt: at least you should link that from http://meego.com/users/lbt  :)
Apr 02 20:56:09 <lbt> there's one with BME and that does iirc
Apr 02 20:56:38 <lbt> qgil_: ah, I wasn't logged in - that's why it was so blank - d'oh
Apr 02 20:56:51 <qgil_> The MeeGo part is sorted alphabetically by surname... then I realized it was by name in the long list
Apr 02 20:58:18 <th0br0> (soo, again: where is that qemu image to be found that is mentioned on the mailing list?)
Apr 02 20:58:30 <th0br0> "meego_qemu_nand.img" apparently
Apr 02 20:58:54 <th0br0> oh nvm.
Apr 02 20:59:04 <th0br0> forget that silly question
Apr 02 20:59:11 <lbt> th0br0 found google :)
Apr 02 20:59:36 <th0br0> well, it's actually no longer on the page; but given that it's required for actually building meego, it's not really what i was looking for
Apr 02 21:00:16 <lbt> qgil_: gravatar is used by a few other resources around meego iirc
Apr 02 21:01:07 <qgil_> wow 129 users have done something in the iki in the last 7 days: http://wiki.meego.com/Special:Statistics
Apr 02 21:01:10 <lbt> _Sky_: *nod* ... not that I like messing with linux boxes or anything...
Apr 02 21:10:06 <Hah> I also like the stats for N900/ARM pages ;)
Apr 02 21:10:13 <qgil_> lbt linked to wiki editors in the whoswho page http://wiki.meego.com/Special:ListUsers
Apr 02 21:10:32 <alden> ive been unable to get my mouse to work in x.. im starting to wonder if its x's fault
Apr 02 21:10:46 <alden> any ideas?
Apr 02 21:11:13 <th0br0> http://wiki.meego.com/User:Dlmiles huh?
Apr 02 21:11:55 <DawnFoster> interesting use of the user page
Apr 02 21:12:34 <lbt> people do use them as scratch areas
Apr 02 21:12:40 <lbt> obviously :)
Apr 02 21:22:24 <lcuk> DawnFoster, seems reasonable to me
Apr 02 21:22:35 <lcuk> saves giving a page a title for drafts - its often a problem
Apr 02 21:22:54 <lcuk> you give something a temp name whilst you write proposal and it ends up not suiting the final document
Apr 02 21:23:16 <DawnFoster> I just said it was an interesting use :)
Apr 02 21:23:21 <lcuk> heh
Apr 02 21:23:47 <DawnFoster> I love seeing how people use things in ways that are different from what most people do.
Apr 02 21:35:15 <_Sky_> i'm just trying to compile mic2, i think i will make and maintain a package for archlinux after i get i working, the only problem is that the user package of yum is outdated and unmaintained, maybe i have to maintain it too. I hope not :)
Apr 02 21:38:31 * alden cant get mouse to work on meego :(
Apr 02 22:00:18 <postmanPechkin> *c
Apr 02 22:15:38 <sykopomp> _Sky_: an arch package?! <3
Apr 02 22:55:27 <trem> nite all, sweet dreams
Apr 02 23:08:48 <alden> you go
Apr 02 23:08:52 <alden> mee go
Apr 02 23:08:54 <alden> bye all
Apr 03 00:12:51 <chid> wow, so may people, will meego support GMA50
Apr 03 01:22:12 <_Sky_> yeah chid, so many people and nothing happens :D
Apr 03 01:22:22 <chid> yeah
Apr 03 01:22:24 <chid> useless people ;P
Apr 03 01:22:31 <chid> so many idlers
Apr 03 01:23:15 <_Sky_> maybe all bouncers ;)
Apr 03 01:24:33 <_Sky_> or maybe all european like me who should sleep now ^^
Apr 03 01:24:36 <chid> shells
Apr 03 02:14:19 <_Sky_> oh great, MIC2 doesnt work in archlinux because someone wrote a masterpiece of python code which uses /usr/bin/du (linux disk usage utility) to get a size of a file ^^ , but in archlinux and i guess also in other distributions  du is in /bin/du , python also has also funktions to get filesizes, i wonder why they didn't use them instead. For now i will write an archlinux patch
Apr 03 02:21:40 <_Sky_> hm, now i'm in the chroot env and i get this if i try to use yum: CRITICAL:yum.cli:Config Error: Error accessing file for config file:///etc/yum.conf
Apr 03 02:22:00 <_Sky_> but the file exists and is accessible, yum also works outside of the chroot env
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Apr 03 02:59:57 2010