**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 18 02:59:57 2010
May 18 07:20:15 <slaine> morning all
May 18 07:20:55 <thiago_home> morning slaine
May 18 07:21:22 <sx0n> morning
May 18 07:21:35 <slaine> now for some coffee to make it official
May 18 07:22:25 * Stskeeps passes slaine the pot of coffee
May 18 07:22:55 <slaine> hmmmm, black and smooth. Just the way I like my.....erm.....coffee
May 18 07:23:00 <slaine> ;)
May 18 07:26:44 <slaine> Stskeeps: pity none of the TSG answered your query about the big reveals
May 18 07:26:52 <thiago_home> dirk did
May 18 07:26:56 <Stskeeps> dirk isn't in TSG
May 18 07:26:56 <Stskeeps> :P
May 18 07:27:05 <thiago_home> right, but he's imad's right hand
May 18 07:27:08 <slaine> and pity not a one meego team lead responded to mine
May 18 07:27:16 <slaine> thiago_home: ah, didn't know that
May 18 07:28:57 <Stskeeps> well, would be good to hear it from them directly as well - i'll be asking on the TSG meeting at least. dirk's opinion was good, but it's difficult to interact with strawmen (bad term, i know) of TSG without knowing they are :)
May 18 08:56:31 <Tuju> http://meego.com/developers/getting-started how one installs a 'meego toolchain' into fedora? or is that just a bundle term for already existing tools?
May 18 08:57:53 <Tuju> if that requires this http://repo.meego.com/tools/repos/fedora/12/ , it should read on that page.
May 18 08:58:44 <Tuju> also, that repo config could be in rpm so that would install automatically.
May 18 08:59:03 <slaine> Tuju: those tools are for making meego images
May 18 08:59:13 <slaine> nothing to do with getting started developing applications
May 18 08:59:19 <Tuju> ack
May 18 08:59:25 <slaine> On the getting started page, they tell you what to install
May 18 08:59:44 <slaine> namely Qt Creator and a compiler tools chain
May 18 09:00:14 <Tuju> it would be more obvious if it would have a list of software packages for example.
May 18 09:00:20 <slaine> There's no MeeGo-SDK at present, so a basic Qt application is the way to go for now
May 18 09:01:00 <slaine> well, each system has it's own packages
May 18 09:01:26 <slaine> there's a certain level of assumption there I guess that you as a developer whould know how to install the developer tools on your host system
May 18 09:01:28 <Tuju> slaine: for example, # yum install 'Qt Creator' --> No package Qt Creator available.
May 18 09:01:50 <Tuju> slaine: i maintain packages in fedora so i do know something about the topic.
May 18 09:02:22 <Tuju> knowing something doesn't mean that instructions could be clear. :)
May 18 09:02:32 <slaine> Tuju: so you're being pedantic to make a point ?
May 18 09:02:41 <Tuju> trying to make a point.
May 18 09:03:32 <slaine> Well, the pages are setup on a wiki for just this reason. Contributions are welcomed to make things easier
May 18 09:03:36 <Tuju> for example, some developing enviroments require some specific versions etc. I started thinking, does this have some kind of chrooted toolchain or are we just using the regular system tools?
May 18 09:04:53 <Tuju> i just logged in, so i guess i'm not in the stage of modifying things/telling others, being wiki or not.
May 18 09:06:18 <stefan99> email the mailinglist about your consern and maybe some people will notice it
May 18 09:06:47 <Tuju> i think 369 people already did.
May 18 09:07:54 <stefan99> well maybe its not so high on the priority list then
May 18 09:13:17 <Tuju> so where do i get that 'virtual machine' ?
May 18 09:14:30 <stefan99> well for example here
May 18 09:14:37 <stefan99> http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/0.9/0.9.80.2.20100512.1/ivi/images/meego-preview-ivi-noemgd-ia32/
May 18 09:14:58 <stefan99> use the iso to install in virtual box
May 18 09:15:09 <Tuju> ack
May 18 09:15:11 <Tuju> thanks
May 18 09:16:21 <stefan99> its "MeeGo 1.0 In-Vehicle" but pretty much standard desktop with xfce
May 18 09:16:39 <Ionakka> <Tuju> slaine: for example, # yum install 'Qt Creator' --> No package Qt Creator available.   <--- which page says that you can install rpm package named 'Qt Creator'? o.O
May 18 09:17:02 <Tuju> ivi stands for something 'in vehicle' ?
May 18 09:17:12 <stefan99> probably
May 18 09:17:41 <jusliukk> ivi = in-vehicle information
May 18 09:17:42 <Tuju> Ionakka: you missed my point but it's okay, nevermind.
May 18 09:17:51 <stefan99> http://www.vimeo.com/11779730
May 18 09:17:59 <stefan99> there is a video of which someone made
May 18 09:18:44 <stefan99> one of my best sentences.. ;)
May 18 09:19:56 <slaine> sorry, was away from keyboard, packing up some gear for a courier
May 18 09:20:33 <slaine> Tuju: well, as suggested, contributions are welcome. Most of us here are like yourself
May 18 09:21:52 <Tuju> how is this meego in license point of view, is there a some kind of diagram of components somewhere and list of their licenses?
May 18 09:23:06 <Stskeeps> core system and UX'es are fully open source, hardware adaptations may occasionally be more usable with closed source drivers
May 18 09:23:10 <Tuju> http://meego.com/about/licensing-policy
May 18 09:23:39 <Corsac> Stskeeps: nice way to say it :)
May 18 09:26:07 <slaine> Is there still the issue with copyright waiver on patches  ?
May 18 09:26:40 <smoku> especially with you're chosing between closed drivers and no drivers :>
May 18 09:27:55 <Stskeeps> slaine: as far as i can tell, it wouldn't be a waiver, but it would be an assertion that you own the code/can push legally and do not push illegal stuff etc..
May 18 09:29:35 <slaine> Stskeeps: ok, thats different to what I'm referring to
May 18 09:29:52 <Stskeeps> slaine: (which fwiw is a fair thing to do :P)
May 18 09:29:56 <slaine> basically, on Moblin, if you submit a patch, you've to give up all rights to it, iirc
May 18 09:29:58 <Stskeeps> copyright waiver is worse
May 18 09:30:14 <slaine> yeah, that's what I'm talking about
May 18 09:30:19 <slaine> Moblin has that
May 18 09:30:59 <Stskeeps> worth starting a thread about?
May 18 09:31:33 <Stskeeps> ah
May 18 09:31:34 <Stskeeps> no
May 18 09:31:41 <Stskeeps> MeeGo project will neither require nor accept copyright assignment for code contributions. The principle behind this is on the one hand to avoid extra bureaucracy or other obstacles discouraging contributions. On the other hand the idea is to emphasize that contributors themselves carry the rights and responsibilities associated with their code. MeeGo is a common concern of its project community and all participants should represent ...
May 18 09:31:47 <Stskeeps> ... themselves and continuously influence the result through their own contribution.
May 18 09:32:25 <Tuju> what i read, the UX will be under proprietary license then.
May 18 09:32:45 <Stskeeps> what makes you say that?
May 18 09:33:30 <Tuju> 'framework tech must allow linking of proprietary components' sounds like it.
May 18 09:33:48 <Stskeeps> no, that just means that there's room for differentiation
May 18 09:34:14 * Stskeeps personally doesn't mind closed plugins if the framework's sole purpose isn't to provide for closed plugins
May 18 09:34:18 <Tuju> which is quite blurry concept.
May 18 09:34:40 <Stskeeps> that's what might come on a vendor device.
May 18 09:34:42 <tmzt> what legal framework is that supposed to fall into?
May 18 09:36:22 <stefan99> closed source etc has a place in linux, better get used to it
May 18 09:36:27 <stefan99> look at ubuntu one
May 18 09:36:53 <stefan99> it will grow more and more
May 18 09:37:44 <Stskeeps> :nod:
May 18 09:37:54 <Stskeeps> you're only as good as your drivers, properitary or otherwise
May 18 11:58:26 <Siva_> hi guys..
May 18 11:58:53 <Siva_> can any body provide a link to source code of the meego webruntime....
May 18 11:59:52 <Siva_> any ideas...?
May 18 12:02:15 <zaheerm> it is not released yet i believe
May 18 12:02:30 <Tumi_> is there any idea about release date?
May 18 12:03:02 <zaheerm> Tumi_, meego 1.0 with netbook ux is due in may
May 18 12:03:14 <fraggeln> zaheerm: and meego for n900? :D
May 18 12:03:27 <Siva_> oh is it
May 18 12:03:47 <Siva_> but does nokia n900 which is a meego phone doesnt support webruntime...?
May 18 12:04:00 <zaheerm> fraggeln, meego 1.0 with handset ux is due shortly after the nertbook ux one
May 18 12:04:21 <zaheerm> Siva_, the n900 runs maemo 5 and does not have web runtime on it yet
May 18 12:04:59 <fraggeln> zaheerm: cool.
May 18 12:05:29 <Siva_> oh thanks zaheer......the memo current release does have wrt...? or still they are implementing...it..?
May 18 12:05:45 <Siva_> i mean meego
May 18 12:06:30 <slaine> Nothing tangible has been released yet. you might be able to install it from the repo's, not sure
May 18 12:06:57 <slaine> I'd give the handset ux release at least a month after the netbook release
May 18 12:07:01 <zaheerm> Siva_, no Web runtime is not available yet
May 18 12:07:35 <Siva_> thanks zaheer..
May 18 12:11:40 <zaheerm> Siva_, however http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-netbook-ux/google-gadgets-meego is available, this tries to make google gadgets (the ones on igoogle) run on meego
May 18 12:12:02 <Siva_> oh..
May 18 13:12:54 <stskeepsie> morning DawnFoster
May 18 13:13:20 <DawnFoster> morning stskeepsie
May 18 13:14:47 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: the meego meetbot seems to be missing from meego-meeting?
May 18 13:15:17 <stskeepsie> yes, hence my special nick. I think it's just a temporary network outage at where i host that and my IRC client
May 18 13:15:24 <stskeepsie> as all the other servers are offline as well
May 18 13:15:44 <stskeepsie> a meeting scheduled for today?
May 18 13:15:47 <DawnFoster> hmmm, we have a meeting in 45 min
May 18 13:15:57 <DawnFoster> community office meeting
May 18 13:16:09 <stskeepsie> i'll set up an emergency one then. hang o
May 18 13:16:09 <stskeepsie> b
May 18 13:16:10 <stskeepsie> n
May 18 13:16:25 <DawnFoster> thanks
May 18 13:16:50 <X-Fade> Last resort is to post the irc log itself though.
May 18 13:17:02 <stskeepsie> yeah, i can always replay it if need be
May 18 13:17:08 <DawnFoster> X-Fade: exactly
May 18 13:18:09 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: in other words, we'd issue the meetbot commands, and you'd run meetbot on the logs later (like we did to fix last week?)
May 18 13:18:27 <stskeepsie> yes, but i'm working on getting a bot up anyway :)
May 18 13:18:37 <DawnFoster> coolio
May 18 13:21:13 <timeless_mbp> hi DawnFoster
May 18 13:21:28 <DawnFoster> hi timeless_mbp
May 18 13:22:27 <timeless_mbp> 17621 timeless  25   0  521m 513m 2016 R  5.4 30.2 109:24.90 genxref
May 18 13:22:30 * timeless_mbp sighs
May 18 13:22:40 <timeless_mbp> 19 97734 of 304234... 209 defs
May 18 13:22:46 <javispedro> mxr?
May 18 13:22:49 <timeless_mbp> yeah
May 18 13:23:01 <javispedro> i'm seeing that the parser seems less accurate as of lately
May 18 13:23:04 <timeless_mbp> it's um.. "not done" with repo.meego.com
May 18 13:23:24 <javispedro> specially the search results page tends to confuse declarations, definitions and uses
May 18 13:23:39 <timeless_mbp> yeah, those bits were never perfect
May 18 13:23:50 <timeless_mbp> heck, its C handling tended to double things :)
May 18 13:23:59 * timeless_mbp should try to fix that
May 18 13:24:03 <javispedro> it's a hard problem either way
May 18 13:24:09 <javispedro> and at least it's usable, so not really a problem
May 18 13:25:25 <timeless_mbp> Mem:   1740944k total,  1726788k used,    14156k free,   101024k buffers
May 18 13:25:56 <timeless_mbp> hrm, i suppose the fact that mxr is using 500mb of ram and there's only 14mb of ram left when it's only 1/3rd through the parsing could be a problem :(
May 18 13:32:30 <slaine> thiago: got Qt using the GTK+ style, thanks for the type (ran qtconfig-qt4 and changed from Default to GTK+)
May 18 13:32:38 <slaine> Where does that setting get saved though ?
May 18 13:32:50 <slaine> I want to include the setting in an /etc/skel
May 18 13:33:09 <thiago> ~/.config/Trolltech.conf
May 18 13:33:14 <thiago> but there's a default file that is read
May 18 13:33:22 <thiago> let me read qsettings sources
May 18 13:33:28 * timeless_mbp chuckles
May 18 13:33:35 <CosmoHill> hey slaine
May 18 13:33:40 <slaine> Hey
May 18 13:35:23 <luist> can anyone here help me with some moblin graphic problem? :)
May 18 13:35:32 <slaine> ask and we'll try
May 18 13:36:44 <thiago> slaine: it also reads /etc/xdg/Trolltech.conf, if I'm reading this right
May 18 13:36:46 <CosmoHill> luist: does it invole nvidia?
May 18 13:36:50 <thiago> and /Trolltech.conf, which makes no sense
May 18 13:37:37 <luist> CosmoHill, hm... i rebuilt a moblin application to run in suse 11.1, but im getting error: ClutterGLX-CRITICAL **: Unable to find suitable GL visual.   and it wont load the graphic interface because of that... in an specific computer i installed a video driver and it worked... but i cant make it work on intel video cards... (it works in suse 11.2 in all computers) what am i missing?
May 18 13:37:45 <slaine> thiago: I assume the /etc/xdg/Trolltech.conf is the same format as the one I just created in ~/.config ?
May 18 13:37:48 * CosmoHill should have stayed quiet
May 18 13:37:59 <thiago> slaine: yes
May 18 13:38:07 <luist> CosmoHill, true :D
May 18 13:38:21 <CosmoHill> if I'm honest, I have no idea
May 18 13:38:29 <CosmoHill> I just came online to find one person who isn't there
May 18 13:38:57 <thiago> slaine: standard .desktop-style cascading configuration file
May 18 13:39:13 <slaine> thiago: cheers
May 18 13:39:21 <sankar> Hi
May 18 13:39:35 <thiago> but it's not a .desktop file, it's a QSettings INI-style file
May 18 13:39:49 <sankar> I would like to know whether the ofono telephony stack provide any apis for the applications?
May 18 13:39:59 <thiago> QSettings can read .desktop files, but it can save things that aren't .desktop
May 18 13:40:05 <thiago> sankar: it does
May 18 13:40:07 <slaine> luist: FunkyPenguin might be able to help out there ???
May 18 13:40:40 <sankar> is it like a direct c api or how is it defined, can you please elaborate more on this
May 18 13:41:34 <sankar> from the code reading it looks like, the ofono stack exposes certain dbus methods to the applications and applications need to call these methods
May 18 13:42:30 <luist> FunkyPenguin, wake up :D
May 18 13:43:14 * CosmoHill hates his assignment
May 18 13:43:48 <CosmoHill> only in project management could you get a difference of £1.2 million between two options
May 18 13:44:32 <FunkyPenguin> luist, sorry, i missed your issue :)
May 18 13:44:48 <luist> FunkyPenguin, hm... i rebuilt a moblin application to run in suse 11.1, but im getting error: ClutterGLX-CRITICAL **: Unable to find suitable GL visual.   and it wont load the graphic interface because of that... in an specific computer i installed a video driver and it worked... but i cant make it work on intel video cards... (it works in suse 11.2 in all computers) what am i missing?
May 18 13:45:31 <FunkyPenguin> luist, what graphics chipset?
May 18 13:45:51 <FunkyPenguin> I didnt have any issues with 2.0 or 2.1 on 11.1
May 18 13:48:14 <luist> FunkyPenguin, i tried with sis671, but i installed the driver and it worked.. but i cant make it work with intel
May 18 13:51:09 <luist> FunkyPenguin, it works on suse 11.2 so i think im missing something that is not the driver
May 18 13:58:41 <sankar> How does the ofono stack communicate with the vendor specific cellular stacks
May 18 14:00:37 <lcuk> sankar, shouldnt most people not care?  ie most will treat ofono as black box to do its job?  or are you tihnking from a specific vendor pov?
May 18 14:01:56 <sankar> my question is it uses the gstreamer to exchange the at commands, for standard at based modem, same is the case with the vendor specif ones?
May 18 14:02:02 <luist> FunkyPenguin, this is how its running on suse 11.2: http://imagebin.org/97327
May 18 14:07:59 <timeless_mbp> sankar: that seems unlikely
May 18 14:08:06 <timeless_mbp> presumably ofono is pluggable
May 18 14:08:17 <FunkyPenguin> luist, i think it might be a case of some funky patches needed to get things running smooth on 11.1 - I forget tbh
May 18 14:08:22 <timeless_mbp> and i don't think that 'at' commands are part of an audio stack...
May 18 14:08:34 <timeless_mbp> so i suspect you're at least confusing your stacks
May 18 14:09:28 <speculatrix> I have a US15W/GMA500-based netbook (fujitsu u820), and I am trying out meego IVI. It boots up fine, but if I choose the install option and try for custom partitioning, it can't start the partitioner and then wants to reboot.
May 18 14:09:42 <FunkyPenguin> luist, im currently trying to make sure the last of the packages are in for Factory/11.3 and things seem to be going well
May 18 14:09:52 <speculatrix> I downloaded the ISO from here and copied it to a flash drive... http://repo.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/0.9/0.9.80.2.20100512.1/ivi/images/meego-preview-ivi-noemgd-ia32/
May 18 14:09:54 <sankar> I agree at commands are not part of audio stack but they are part of cellular stack.
May 18 14:10:23 <sankar> my question is, whether new plugins can be added, which will interact with the cellular stacks
May 18 14:10:29 <speculatrix> meego runs fine "live" booted off usb flash drive
May 18 14:10:55 <speculatrix> is this a known problem? should I report it as a bug?
May 18 14:11:40 <luist> FunkyPenguin, well maybe i can make it uses less (or none) graphic resources ?
May 18 14:11:55 <luist> FunkyPenguin, i just need this application to work asap...
May 18 14:15:29 <luist> FunkyPenguin, this is the configure.ac http://pastie.org/965603
May 18 14:21:03 <slaine> speculatrix: I've not tried it, but that sounds like a bug
May 18 14:31:44 <speculatrix> never mind, I have created bug report: http://bugs.meego.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2261
May 18 14:41:41 * stskeepsie can only hope the karma discussion dies down after a decision has been made and argued
May 18 14:46:53 * slaine thinks karma is a waste of time
May 18 14:47:12 <stskeepsie> i think metrics are more flexible and fits into more real-life situations
May 18 14:47:41 <slaine> nod
May 18 14:47:54 <stskeepsie> like, if we have a meetup for up-and-coming team members, we can measure/establish that with metrics, if we want a certain focus on a conference, we can choose from a wide data set
May 18 14:47:57 <stskeepsie> :P
May 18 14:49:32 <bergie> metrics are definitely needed
May 18 14:50:12 <bergie> that is what a karma system would build on anyway :-)
May 18 14:51:03 <stskeepsie> going full circle, it bends down to a bit of e-penis length competition since all the other uses are possible to measure with metrics :)
May 18 14:51:59 <GAN900> Hey, those comparisons help drive activity.
May 18 14:52:26 <slaine> GAN900: not healthy activity though :
May 18 14:53:36 <javispedro> healthy computing? where
May 18 14:53:37 <javispedro> ?
May 18 14:54:05 <slaine> What's OSU ???
May 18 14:54:11 <stskeepsie> slaine: osuosl
May 18 14:54:21 <stskeepsie> (google it)
May 18 14:55:04 <slaine> Ah, thanks
May 18 14:55:18 <stskeepsie> great place for hosting
May 18 14:56:32 <yaledioma> .
May 18 14:58:54 <Termana> That was assuredly exciting I'm sure
May 18 15:05:50 <GAN900> slaine, depends
May 18 15:06:11 <GAN900> slaine, personally, competing with timeless for top slot on bugs filed keeps me filing.
May 18 15:06:22 <GAN900> Seems healthy enough to me.
May 18 15:06:46 <slaine> I was kidding in reference to stskeepsie comment
May 18 15:07:05 <GAN900> slaine, ah.
May 18 15:07:24 <timeless_mbp> and i don't even try!
May 18 15:07:24 * GAN900 is only vaguely paying attention to things GAN900 isn't saying. :P
May 18 15:07:27 <timeless_mbp> eep
May 18 15:07:32 <timeless_mbp> although i did just crash excel
May 18 15:07:36 <CosmoHill> :o
May 18 15:07:40 <timeless_mbp> .mac
May 18 15:07:44 <CosmoHill> I've crashed word 2010 a few times
May 18 15:07:49 <GAN900> Too bad that's not a Maemo product. :P
May 18 15:07:52 <timeless_mbp> this is 2008
May 18 15:08:01 <CosmoHill> well 2010 comes out next month so...
May 18 15:08:05 <CosmoHill> ^.^
May 18 16:18:43 * CosmoHill stabs MS project
May 18 16:19:45 <robtaylor> CosmoHill: i feel for you..
May 18 16:20:11 <CosmoHill> thanks
May 18 16:21:00 <CosmoHill> for each resource it gives me two team group error messages
May 18 16:21:29 <CosmoHill> it might as well go going "something bad has happened but I can't tell you"
May 18 16:31:39 <Unmensch> hi, will meego be officially supported by nokia on the n900 or just be ported?
May 18 17:16:20 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: meeting bot back up, log put up at http://trac.tspre.org/meetbot/meego-meeting/2010/meego-meeting.2010-05-18-14.00.html
May 18 17:17:07 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: great, thanks. I'm also happy to hear that your servers are back up :)
May 18 17:17:52 <TSCHAKeee> :D
May 18 17:18:11 <Stskeeps> so am i :P
May 18 17:59:14 <Stskeeps> it's an lbt abroad!
May 18 17:59:28 * an_lbt_abroad reclines on his deck chair
May 18 18:01:01 <Stskeeps> how's the weather up there?
May 18 18:04:20 <an_lbt_abroad> really sunny
May 18 18:04:30 <an_lbt_abroad> I bought shades 8)
May 18 18:04:57 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 18 18:05:35 <Stskeeps> floods and rain here - was supposed to go hiking in slovakian mountains this weekend, which seems unlikely, even though we're going with people who think it's a perfectly fine vacation to "go help secure the area with sandbags"
May 18 18:05:41 <Stskeeps> (not my words)
May 18 18:05:59 * an_lbt_abroad gapes
May 18 18:06:08 <an_lbt_abroad> err, no thanks
May 18 18:06:35 <an_lbt_abroad> although hiking appeals... it's been a while
May 18 18:06:36 <DawnFoster> Stskeeps: I can think of better things to do on vacation :)
May 18 18:06:54 <an_lbt_abroad> I'm just drafting up a 'policy' proposal for tomorrow night
May 18 18:06:59 <lcuk> Stskeeps, take bucket and spade and play ontop of the new artificial beach
May 18 18:07:06 <Stskeeps> only time i'm doing that is when at a music festival, rain has been pouring for ages, and we need to protect the tents and beer from water.
May 18 18:07:20 <CosmoHill> before I had a laptop I spent a lot of time reading on hoildays
May 18 18:07:22 <pupnik_> :)
May 18 18:07:48 <an_lbt_abroad> paraphrased: the wiki is authoritative; it's OK to report a bugs if a package != wiki
May 18 18:07:50 <CosmoHill> then i got a laptop and worked out how to teather my phone to it
May 18 18:08:03 <an_lbt_abroad> (wrt packaging)
May 18 18:08:24 <an_lbt_abroad> tether
May 18 18:08:25 <Stskeeps> an_lbt_abroad: i still wonder how packaging/guidelines can sanely exist in a wiki
May 18 18:08:34 <Stskeeps> ie, without being locked somehow
May 18 18:08:37 <an_lbt_abroad> ah, that's part deux
May 18 18:09:05 <an_lbt_abroad> all changes to the wiki should go via the mailing list and be approved by the packaging team
May 18 18:09:28 <an_lbt_abroad> we may have to lock it but I hope not
May 18 18:09:55 <an_lbt_abroad> right now I can (and do) just go in and change packaging policy
May 18 18:10:02 <lcuk> why lock?  its a wiki it has full history if something isnt liked it can be reverted
May 18 18:10:22 <an_lbt_abroad> indeed lcuk... and typos and stuff
May 18 18:10:33 <DawnFoster> having wiki changes go through a mailing list is probably counterintuitive for most people
May 18 18:11:04 <pupnik_> agree with lcuk
May 18 18:11:20 <lcuk> discussing whether to keep the changes is where the ML/discussion helps
May 18 18:11:28 <an_lbt_abroad> http://pastie.org/966103
May 18 18:11:45 <an_lbt_abroad> DawnFoster: I agree - but it isn't a normal wiki page
May 18 18:12:00 <DawnFoster> right, but people assume that it's on a wiki, so editing is ok
May 18 18:12:32 <an_lbt_abroad> Yep... we'll need to fix that. Maybe pages tagged 'policy' should have a header?
May 18 18:12:51 <DawnFoster> not that you can't do it, but I expect that people will forget that certain pages are "special" and can't be edited
May 18 18:12:54 <an_lbt_abroad> Either that or we set up another website to host the content
May 18 18:13:01 <an_lbt_abroad> which sucks
May 18 18:13:12 <an_lbt_abroad> or lock it ... which also sucks
May 18 18:13:45 <DawnFoster> or just deal with people forgetting and be prepared for a few reverts :)
May 18 18:14:02 <lcuk> and if it grows to be a problem reexamine process
May 18 18:14:11 <an_lbt_abroad> yup ... minimal suckage.... and a chance to recruit the writer
May 18 18:14:11 <DawnFoster> agree with lcuk
May 18 18:15:16 <an_lbt_abroad> so I put the draft email in the pastie... thoughts anyone?
May 18 18:15:37 <an_lbt_abroad> I'd like to run it up to the TSG tomorrow
May 18 18:16:27 <DawnFoster> we're already finalizing the TSG agenda & the agenda already might be too long
May 18 18:16:47 <DawnFoster> You might need to wait for the next one.
May 18 18:17:33 <DawnFoster> In general, we start working on finalizing the agenda around 48 hours before the meeting - best shot to get into the TSG is to have your items prepped on the Friday before the TSG.
May 18 18:18:03 <DawnFoster> we might be able to squeeze it in, but just letting you know it may not make it this week
May 18 18:18:11 <an_lbt_abroad> DawnFoster: mmm... OK. This is coming from our product management at nokia. We'd appreciate it
May 18 18:19:09 <DawnFoster> ultimately, Imad and Valtteri make the call on what gets on the agenda, but I think they might have finalized the agenda already
May 18 18:20:34 <an_lbt_abroad> OK. I'll drop it into the wiki anyway. If we have to wait another couple of weeks I'm *sure* they'll understand ;)
May 18 18:21:01 <DawnFoster> cool, thanks
May 18 18:21:31 <DawnFoster> btw, where are you vacationing abroad?
May 18 18:21:57 <an_lbt_abroad> Helsinki
May 18 18:22:06 <an_lbt_abroad> not quite a vacation....
May 18 18:22:14 <an_lbt_abroad> more a long commute
May 18 18:22:25 <DawnFoster> I was picturing something more exotic - like palm trees :)
May 18 18:22:35 <an_lbt_abroad> I picture that too...
May 18 18:22:46 <an_lbt_abroad> and they think I'm just asleep in the meetings...
May 18 18:23:31 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: actually helsinki weather isn't half bad :)
May 18 18:24:23 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: unless there are palm trees, it doesn't count (just kidding)
May 18 18:24:27 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 18 18:24:40 <DawnFoster> Apparently, I must be ready for another beach vacation
May 18 18:24:51 <Stskeeps> i can imagine
May 18 18:26:53 <Stskeeps> my vacation this summer will probably be a week worth of good music, beer and living in a tent at a music festival. usually recharges me with positive energy for the rest of the year :)
May 18 18:33:06 <lcuk> DawnFoster, i concurr with these guys, helsinki is a lovely city
May 18 18:33:28 <Stskeeps> when it's not snowing and you slip at each step due to ice
May 18 18:33:57 <lcuk> lol yeah
May 18 18:34:33 * Stskeeps had his honeymoon in helsinki and still isn't sure that was a good choice
May 18 18:34:57 <lcuk> it wasnt helsinki that was the problem, it was that nokia were your best man
May 18 18:34:59 <DawnFoster> I'll have to find an excuse to visit (during the summer) :)
May 18 18:35:31 <lcuk> DawnFoster, indeed
May 18 18:38:03 <arjan> don't go to helsinki in summer
May 18 18:38:05 <arjan> it never gets dark
May 18 18:38:12 <bzhb> Hi, I tried to execute the "widgetsgallery" demo from MeeGo Touch UI framework core, but I get that error:
May 18 18:38:12 * arjan votes for mid may ;)
May 18 18:38:15 <bzhb> MRemoteThemeDaemon: Failed to connect to theme daemon (IPC)
May 18 18:38:15 <bzhb> MThemeDaemon - base theme directory not found: /usr/local/share/themes/base/meegotouch/libmeegotouchcore/style. Please (re)install meegotouchtheme package.
May 18 18:38:18 <inz> arjan, sure it does
May 18 18:38:30 <arjan> inz: it gets darkER, but not really dark :)
May 18 18:38:33 <lcuk> arjan, better than visiting in winter
May 18 18:38:46 <lcuk> at least you can see the city
May 18 18:40:09 <bzhb> I tried to reinstall duitheme, ut it doesn't solve the problem
May 18 18:40:36 <bzhb> any idea ?
May 18 18:41:28 <an_lbt_abroad> DawnFoster: I've added it here: http://wiki.meego.com/Technical_Steering_Group_meetings#Backlog_of_Proposed_Topics   I really think this is a 'rubber stamp'
May 18 18:42:26 <an_lbt_abroad> arjan: hey :)  take a look at this for me?  :  http://wiki.meego.com/Packaging/Policy
May 18 18:43:39 <an_lbt_abroad> about to send a mail to -dev.... just soliciting comments before I hit send (and putting it on the wiki so DawnFoster can add it to the TSG for tomorrow)
May 18 18:43:46 <DawnFoster> I wonder if that really needs to go to the TSG?
May 18 18:44:01 <DawnFoster> could it be resolved at a lower level in the project?
May 18 18:44:13 <DawnFoster> not everything needs to go to the TSG.
May 18 18:44:38 <VDVsx> an_lbt_abroad, coming to HELL soon ? :D
May 18 18:45:02 <VDVsx> its true almost 22h and still a lot of light :D
May 18 18:45:09 <DawnFoster> let's start with meego-dev and only take it to the TSG if we need some kind of resolution
May 18 18:45:18 <an_lbt_abroad> DawnFoster: I think this does. We want to be clear to packagers that this is our official policy and it's a bug not to comply
May 18 18:45:48 <an_lbt_abroad> we bounced this around this afternoon and agreed that this would be the best approach
May 18 18:45:48 <DawnFoster> but the packaging team can determine their policies?
May 18 18:46:07 <DawnFoster> define "we"
May 18 18:46:25 <an_lbt_abroad> the nokia team doing the internal build policy work
May 18 18:47:03 <an_lbt_abroad> and understanding how product owners could manage/track bugs back into MeeGo
May 18 18:47:32 <an_lbt_abroad> we (same team) are likely to spawn work spitting out bugs to MeeGo packagers
May 18 18:47:50 <an_lbt_abroad> saying "your changelogs are wrong"
May 18 18:47:56 <an_lbt_abroad> and they'll say "so"
May 18 18:48:02 <DawnFoster> like I said, it's up to Imad and Valtteri to determine the agenda, but I think it might have already been finalized
May 18 18:48:07 <luist> hey... i rebuilt a moblin application to run in suse 11.1, but im getting error: ClutterGLX-CRITICAL **: Unable to find suitable GL visual.   and it wont load the graphic interface because of that... in an specific computer i installed a video driver and it worked... but i cant make it work on intel video cards... (it works in suse 11.2 in all computers) what am i missing?
May 18 18:48:07 <an_lbt_abroad> *nod*
May 18 18:48:30 <an_lbt_abroad> it is supposed to be open until 24 hrs before
May 18 18:48:42 <an_lbt_abroad> DawnFoster: this is why you have a policy...
May 18 18:48:53 <an_lbt_abroad> it used to be 48....
May 18 18:49:01 <an_lbt_abroad> then it got revised....
May 18 18:49:10 <DawnFoster> no, it's supposed to be finalized 24 hrs before. Dropping something onto the proposed list 15 minutes before the deadline is unlikely to make it
May 18 18:49:42 <DawnFoster> at some point, Imad and Valtteri need to time to talk about what they want on the agenda with enough lead time to get it finalized
May 18 18:50:10 <an_lbt_abroad> OK
May 18 18:50:23 <DawnFoster> there is no specific deadline for proposals. Maybe there should be.
May 18 18:50:51 <Stskeeps> personally i wouldn't mind a week in discussion for any given proposal and then based on that it is tabled for tsg with a summary
May 18 18:51:10 <DawnFoster> keep in mind that Imad and Valtteri are both very busy. Getting a finalized agenda is difficult
May 18 18:51:23 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: that's about what I was thinking, too
May 18 18:51:34 <an_lbt_abroad> Stskeeps: but now they meet only every 2 weeks
May 18 18:52:25 <Stskeeps> well, a cyclus of tsg meeting - agenda prep meeting - tsg meeting could be interesting too
May 18 18:52:39 <Stskeeps> or something
May 18 18:53:10 <Stskeeps> either way, this is just another example of the fact we don't have project structure with names out, leading proposals to be at too high levels (ie, TSG)
May 18 18:53:17 <Stskeeps> so i hope there's news in that area :)
May 18 18:53:58 <bzhb> Is there an other irc channel where I can find help for MeeGo Touch (aka DirectUI, aka Harmattan UI Framework) ?
May 18 18:54:07 <an_lbt_abroad> well, I proposed a repository working group a while back.... but I'm sure someone said "that's a core function" about the packaging policy partd
May 18 18:54:53 * Stskeeps wonders where packaging policy sorts under, at http://meego.com/sites/all/files/MeeGoDevStructureTSG_May5.pdf
May 18 18:55:22 <Stskeeps> i guess RE enforcing, QA suggesting?
May 18 18:55:30 <Stskeeps> or something
May 18 18:57:07 <an_lbt_abroad> QA probably... depends on their scope
May 18 18:57:53 <an_lbt_abroad> or DD
May 18 18:58:05 <lcuk> bzhb, you might find more luck atm trying in #qt-maemo
May 18 18:58:16 <an_lbt_abroad> if they are self-documenting
May 18 18:58:38 <an_lbt_abroad> ie if the DD pkg maintainers manage their own policy
May 18 18:59:08 * an_lbt_abroad realises this is the first time he's been on irc as part of his job :)
May 18 18:59:19 <bzhb> lcuk: thanks
May 18 18:59:42 <Stskeeps> DawnFoster: btw, frozen and published 24 hours before is normally the goal?
May 18 19:00:24 <DawnFoster> stskeeps: that's what we've said. Getting it finalized is always more difficult that it sounds :)
May 18 19:00:46 <Stskeeps> hehe
May 18 19:00:58 <DawnFoster> Imad is probably getting tired of me bugging him :)
May 18 19:08:40 <Stskeeps> and thank you for doing that for all of us :)
May 18 19:10:06 <CosmoHill> an_lbt_abroad: lol
May 18 19:19:54 <lcuk> which of the meego UX thingies need to be rotatable?
May 18 19:19:58 <lcuk> is it only the phones
May 18 19:20:09 <lcuk> or are there other larger devices needing it
May 18 19:20:16 <Stskeeps> i could mention a netbook scenario where rotation would be useful
May 18 19:20:32 <lcuk> yeah my x41 is a convertable 12" slate
May 18 19:20:57 <lcuk> practically netbook before they were fashionable ;)
May 18 19:20:59 <arjan> for intel graphics... XRANDR works
May 18 19:21:08 <arjan> one of the R's is for "Rotate" :0
May 18 19:21:08 <lcuk> even better running it at 600mhz :D
May 18 19:21:20 <lcuk> arjan, that wasnt why i was asking
May 18 19:21:39 <lcuk> i know technically it would work
May 18 19:21:49 <arjan> oh you mean apps dealing with resizing ?
May 18 19:21:57 <lcuk> i was wondering what use cases and stuff were being considered
May 18 19:22:03 <lcuk> nahhh thats technical
May 18 19:22:13 <lcuk> but will be pushed by the use cases
May 18 19:22:22 <arjan> I suspect that the rule of thumb (no pun) is: Anything touch based also rotates
May 18 19:22:37 <lcuk> its like maemo and the portrait thing, getting too far in with a project that wont wotate that needs to
May 18 19:23:06 <lcuk> arjan, but it doesnt open the discussion with a blanket :P
May 18 19:23:24 <lcuk> which UXes are going to be touchable?
May 18 19:23:35 <arjan> at least handset and slate
May 18 19:23:50 <lcuk> in car?  boat? wall? slate?  kitchen?   bedroom?   alarm clock?
May 18 19:24:32 <lcuk> different manufacturers of cars will have different screen availability if new cars are like older ones
May 18 19:24:33 <Stskeeps> i guess slate is all the stuff that isn't a handset but uses touch exclusively and optionally a keyboad?
May 18 19:24:37 <Stskeeps> :P
May 18 19:24:39 <lcuk> some will have columns with touch
May 18 19:24:43 <lcuk> others will have rows
May 18 19:24:43 <Stskeeps> like, those n8x0 thingies everyone forgot about ;)
May 18 19:25:04 <lcuk> the things i have 4 of on my desk you mean
May 18 19:25:12 <lcuk> that i make notes on everyday
May 18 19:28:16 * Stskeeps ponders idly about all the intel commercials he seems to be getting on comedy central
May 18 19:29:59 <lcuk> how many practical front ends for a media player would be needed/available?  the one you use on your lap may be laid out completely different to the one you have on your photoframe
May 18 19:30:27 <Stskeeps> ideally there'd be multiple views and one model? ;)
May 18 19:30:35 <lcuk> indeed
May 18 19:30:48 <lcuk> but thats down under the netbook ux at the moment
May 18 19:30:54 <lcuk> if im reading stuff right
May 18 19:31:13 <lcuk> but holding arm up to reach photoframe requires different agility to having it rest ing on knee
May 18 19:31:47 <Stskeeps> personally i hope for a huge bunch of meego devices in all shapes and sizes. ideally, hackable too
May 18 19:32:13 <lcuk> is it possible for an open project to not allow hacking?
May 18 19:32:30 <Stskeeps> sure, just watch security framework :P
May 18 19:33:29 <Stskeeps> i wonder if TPM's are standard issue in atom developer boards though
May 18 19:36:21 <lcuk> Stskeeps, so wheres the repo for the security framework stuff?
May 18 19:36:28 <lcuk> and is it being woven through qt yet?
May 18 19:36:51 <Stskeeps> does it need to be?
May 18 19:37:00 <lcuk> would assume so?
May 18 19:37:08 <Stskeeps> if done right, no good reason for that
May 18 19:37:13 <lcuk> if i need to create an instance of call history or something?
May 18 19:37:18 <w00t_> if it's at the framework level then it's broken by design
May 18 19:37:32 <lcuk> "security framework"
May 18 19:37:46 <w00t_> not what I meant and I suspect you know that :p
May 18 19:37:56 * lcuk was grinning as i pasted it
May 18 19:38:11 <w00t_> evil, evil lcuk
May 18 19:38:15 <lcuk> ok so its at the app level?
May 18 19:38:47 <lcuk> i thought its logical place was inside the qobject constructor
May 18 19:38:49 <arjan> Stskeeps: most netbooks don't have tpm... just too much $$
May 18 19:38:53 <lcuk> that way everything can be traced
May 18 19:39:06 <lcuk> or rejected as per whatever
May 18 19:39:08 <arjan> those things are cost cut all the way
May 18 19:39:30 <lcuk> tpm is on practically everything isnt it?
May 18 19:39:33 <arjan> nope
May 18 19:39:38 <lcuk> just not activated after the outlash last time
May 18 19:39:40 <arjan> it's a separate chip
May 18 19:39:50 <arjan> and that means it's an OEM choice to add or not
May 18 19:41:19 <lcuk> will it be required for meego
May 18 19:41:55 <arjan> no
May 18 19:42:07 <arjan> but you need "somethign" if you want to do a locked down syste
May 18 19:42:07 <arjan> m
May 18 19:42:12 <arjan> but many folks don't care
May 18 19:42:21 <arjan> and don't want to spend the $$ on hardware BOM for it
May 18 19:42:40 <Stskeeps> arjan: regarding menlow, the problem with that is graphics right? and not instruction set etc i guess
May 18 19:42:46 <lcuk> especially if it prevents them from doing stuff in future
May 18 19:42:46 <arjan> correct
May 18 19:43:06 <Stskeeps> ah, so it's the powervr fun
May 18 19:45:00 <lcuk> Stskeeps, do you know where the security framework is being developed?
May 18 19:45:05 <lcuk> and is it open
May 18 19:45:16 <X-Fade> Check gitorious
May 18 19:45:20 <Stskeeps> lcuk: physical location or web? ;p
May 18 19:45:34 <Stskeeps> http://meego.gitorious.org/meego-platform-security
May 18 19:50:40 <lcuk> Stskeeps, so the framework is a hasher, credential checker tool(library?), and apt-get replacement ?
May 18 19:50:53 <lcuk> ive added the link to repo on the wiki
May 18 19:50:55 <lcuk> http://wiki.maemo.org/Maemo_security
May 18 19:51:01 <Stskeeps> i don't know anything about their openness
May 18 19:52:02 <lcuk> security should be the most open of all because it is what everyone must place trust in?
May 18 19:52:47 <ml-something> not if it's security to be used against you :)
May 18 19:52:53 <X-Fade> The framework etc should be as open as possible now.
May 18 19:53:01 <X-Fade> It is the policies you must fear ;)
May 18 19:53:29 <X-Fade> The framework itself looks sane.
May 18 19:54:01 <lcuk> then if its sane, it can be used by others.
May 18 19:54:21 <X-Fade> Sure, it is supposed to be that way.
May 18 19:54:36 <X-Fade> From the early documentation I have read.
May 18 19:55:06 <lcuk> yeah ive sat in on 2 presentations now
May 18 19:57:23 <lcuk> anyway, vanishing \o bbl enjoyed convo folks as usual
May 18 20:40:44 <an_lbt_abroad> meego-dev is a moderated list?
May 18 20:41:01 <thiago_home> no
May 18 20:41:05 <an_lbt_abroad> oh
May 18 20:41:10 <an_lbt_abroad> yes it is :)
May 18 20:41:27 <an_lbt_abroad> Your mail to 'MeeGo-dev' with the subject...
May 18 20:41:51 <an_lbt_abroad> Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval....
May 18 20:42:02 <an_lbt_abroad> I posted from my @nokia account
May 18 20:42:19 <an_lbt_abroad> I only subscribe with my @dgreaves account...
May 18 20:43:28 <poutsi> moderated is not really the same as only-members-may-post
May 18 20:44:24 <an_lbt_abroad> depends if the moderator address is ~ dev/null ....
May 18 20:45:08 <poutsi> heh, yes :) thankfully i've no such duties... i don't envy the ones who do
May 18 20:50:59 <slavik> the omap4 dev kit ... can that be used as an actual cellphone? or does it lack the cell connectivity parts?
May 18 20:51:14 <thiago_home> does it have a GSM radio?
May 18 20:51:26 <thiago_home> oh, right, that's what you were asking
May 18 20:51:36 <thiago_home> I doubt that the GSM radio is in...
May 18 20:51:38 <slavik> thiago_home: I would think so, but I don't have one :(
May 18 20:51:49 <slavik> thiago_home: but that can be bolted on though, right?
May 18 20:52:51 <thiago_home> yeah
May 18 20:52:59 <thiago_home> I mean, the N900 is an OMAP3
May 18 20:53:01 <thiago_home> so it must be possible
May 18 20:53:54 <slavik> at some point in my life, I want to learn ARM assembly (or how to write proper C for arm)
May 18 21:42:01 <slaine> Stskeeps: you about ?
May 18 21:56:29 <trem> nite all, sweet dreams
May 18 23:54:40 <CosmoHill> son of a bitch i knew it
May 18 23:55:05 <CosmoHill> my windows laptop which has been asleep for a while just powered itself on and when into hibinate
May 19 00:51:53 <Termana> good morning
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 19 02:59:57 2010