**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon May 24 02:59:56 2010
May 24 05:30:43 <Stskeeps> REMINDER: N900 hardware adaptation team meeting in 30 minutes in #meego-meeting , agenda at http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900#Next_meeting
May 24 05:55:26 <Stskeeps> REMINDER: N900 hardware adaptation team meeting in 5 minutes in #meego-meeting , agenda at http://wiki.meego.com/ARM/N900#Next_meeting
May 24 07:35:12 <Myrtti> crikey.
May 24 07:36:41 <Termana> Myrtti, WHAT WAS THAT?
May 24 07:36:53 <Myrtti> I sneezed
May 24 07:37:07 <Termana> Thats not what I meant :P anyway
May 24 08:47:21 <slaine> That Hildon thread was interesting
May 24 08:47:58 <Stskeeps> maemo gtk is the worst problem of maemo, tbh
May 24 08:48:16 <RST38h> one of indeed
May 24 08:48:32 <RST38h> but don't you hope that qt will be better
May 24 08:49:26 <RST38h> Nokia is doing to qt exactly the same thing it has done to Symbian Eikon and Linux GTK+
May 24 08:49:57 <slaine> So what happened there, Maemo had an incompatible gtk+ branch, due to patches needed for Hildon to operate as per it's design ?
May 24 08:50:03 <Stskeeps> right
May 24 08:50:31 <Stskeeps> there's no real reason why they couldn't have gone straight into gtk, the people making it -was- gtk people
May 24 08:50:40 <RST38h> slaine: Replacing random parts of the toolkit with its own incompatible analogs, breaking the original parts, making remaining parts incompatible too
May 24 08:50:56 <Stskeeps> i didn't know they financed gnome foundation to get the future secured of hildon though
May 24 08:51:00 <RST38h> Sts: Maemo4 GTK was still ok. Maemo5 GTK is broken
May 24 08:51:37 <slaine> So it effectively became a fork and now the pain is to bring it back
May 24 08:51:43 <Stskeeps> right
May 24 08:51:52 <slaine> bummer, that's one of the worst types of pain
May 24 08:52:52 <RST38h> and, mainly, there is no reason to bring it back
May 24 08:52:59 <slaine> (project pain that is)
May 24 08:53:12 <RST38h> Maemo5 GTK has serious UI design problems
May 24 08:53:28 <slaine> So what, go back to Hildon circa Maemo4 ?
May 24 08:53:33 <RST38h> yea
May 24 08:53:41 <RST38h> that is actually a better idea, IMHO
May 24 08:53:46 <slaine> Maemo5 was Diablo release right ?
May 24 08:53:54 <RST38h> Maemo5=Fremantle
May 24 08:54:00 <RST38h> Maemo4=Diablo/Chinook
May 24 08:54:04 <slaine> Ah right
May 24 08:54:48 <RST38h> Important note: Maemo4 GTK will need a few tweaks to make it finger-friendly
May 24 08:55:02 <RST38h> (i.e. you will need to add kinetic scrolling and a couple more things)
May 24 08:58:57 * slaine wonders if there's any chance of porting Hildon atop of Mx rather than Gtk+
May 24 09:00:33 <timeless_mbp> slaine: the solution to bad forks is to kill them or stick a fork in them and bury them :)
May 24 09:00:59 <slaine> indeed, but why not remove the fork and have the Hildon API sit atop Mx ?
May 24 09:01:15 <timeless_mbp> you want to do it? :)
May 24 09:01:37 <slaine> If the gnome foundation want to match my salary then sure :)
May 24 09:02:04 <timeless_mbp> glad to hear someone gets a decent salary
May 24 09:02:06 <RST38h> slaine: so you have got your answer to "why not" right there
May 24 09:02:37 <slaine> Is there a git repo where I can scare myself off
May 24 09:04:02 <timeless_mbp> slaine: of which? maemo5-hildon?
May 24 09:04:46 <timeless_mbp> http://mxr.maemo.org/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/
May 24 09:04:50 <timeless_mbp> was probably hildon
May 24 09:05:06 <timeless_mbp> http://mxr.maemo.org/maemo/source/projects/haf/trunk/.svn/entries
May 24 09:05:13 <timeless_mbp> points to https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk
May 24 09:05:23 <timeless_mbp> looks like they killed that at some point :)
May 24 09:05:38 <Stskeeps> it's on gitorious now
May 24 09:05:44 <slaine> haf == hildon application framework ????
May 24 09:05:47 <timeless_mbp> yep
May 24 09:05:57 <lcuk> yes slaine
May 24 09:05:59 <lcuk> whats Mx?
May 24 09:06:10 <timeless_mbp> Meego experience? :)
May 24 09:06:11 <slaine> GObject toolkit built on Clutter
May 24 09:06:12 <zaheerm> mx is clutter based
May 24 09:06:23 <slaine> Using CSS for styling
May 24 09:06:25 <lcuk> lol cool
May 24 09:06:25 <timeless_mbp> it's a chance to ensure a namespace collision
May 24 09:06:34 <timeless_mbp> with nokia's M prefixed meego ui
May 24 09:06:40 <timeless_mbp> which is supposedly Qt based :)
May 24 09:06:42 <lcuk> timeless_mbp, and why not take that opportunity! :D
May 24 09:06:55 <timeless_mbp> lcuk: a missed opportunity is a terrible thing
May 24 09:07:03 <timeless_mbp> all waste is good waste
May 24 09:07:13 <timeless_mbp> and the more confusion the merrier
May 24 09:07:17 <lcuk> well mx doesnt come up in google ;)
May 24 09:07:31 <lcuk> it tells me about dns records
May 24 09:07:36 <timeless_mbp> does the nokia maemo6 ui come up in google?
May 24 09:07:55 <slaine> lcuk, it reached 1.0 last week, just intime for the meego release :)
May 24 09:08:17 <Terwiz> I've been trying to find some instructions on how to compile MeeGo kernel for N900, but haven't found much info. On gitorious there are couple of n900 kernel related repos, but no instructions there. Any pointers?
May 24 09:08:32 <slaine> Mx is an reworking of nbtk from Moblin2 (nbtk == netbook toolkit).
May 24 09:09:12 <slaine> It would have replaced nbtk in Moblin 2.2
May 24 09:09:22 <lcuk> see, now nbtk comes up
May 24 09:09:29 <Stskeeps> Terwiz: #meego-arm
May 24 09:09:36 <slaine> it's got released code, Mx doesn't really
May 24 09:09:56 <slaine> lcuk, search in conjunction with either clutter or Thomas Wood
May 24 09:09:57 <lcuk> but you said it was released
May 24 09:10:23 <slaine> as much of a release as a git branch for 1.0 being released
May 24 09:10:26 <thiago_home> shameless plug: http://gitorious.org/qt-components/qt-components (it has mx-like support)
May 24 09:11:53 <RST38h> what IS mx?
May 24 09:11:59 <lcuk> o_O thiago_home another prototype :p when does qt expect to hit 1.0 :D
May 24 09:12:40 <Terwiz> Stskeeps: thanks, I'll check that out
May 24 09:12:46 <slaine> RST38h: http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/2009/11/18/a-new-clutter-widget-toolkit/
May 24 09:13:11 <slaine> And then, http://blogs.gnome.org/thos/2010/05/20/mx-toolkit-1-0/
May 24 09:13:27 <lcuk> slaine, sure i found them eventually
May 24 09:13:36 <thiago_home> lcuk: it's QML support for making MX-like widgets for the moment
May 24 09:13:42 <lcuk> perhaps continuing to call it clutter mx would be better
May 24 09:14:11 <slaine> Gnome shell has something very similar in St (Shell Toolkit)
May 24 09:14:49 <RST38h> slaine: Clutter. I will stop there.
May 24 09:14:55 * slaine likes clutter
May 24 09:15:36 <RST38h> slaine: consider cost vs benefit ratio of clutter
May 24 09:15:46 <lcuk> so its a toolkit that sits ontop of a clutter actors
May 24 09:15:53 <thiago_home> yes
May 24 09:16:14 <slaine> RST38h: I don't follow
May 24 09:16:15 <thiago_home> just like the three that exist on top of QGraphicsView
May 24 09:16:24 <RST38h> slaine: Ok, let me explain
May 24 09:16:57 <RST38h> slaine: Costs: 1) more complicated to program with 2) holds GL context 3) requires 3D hardware to work
May 24 09:17:04 <RST38h> slaine: Benefits: ???
May 24 09:17:25 <Stskeeps> wasn't 2) solved?
May 24 09:17:34 <thiago_home> and 3: GL is the future
May 24 09:17:40 <RST38h> Sts: For full screen mode
May 24 09:17:46 <lcuk> thiago_home, w00t_ has done a bit of hacking with qgraphicsscene which if im right wants to use normal qt widgets but with the flexibility of GV
May 24 09:17:47 <thiago_home> non-GL is only for compatibility mode
May 24 09:17:48 <RST38h> fuck the future
May 24 09:18:03 <lcuk> gl is only the future if it can render everything ;)
May 24 09:18:15 <thiago_home> what can't it render?
May 24 09:18:48 <RST38h> Gentlemen, please, do not try pushing your silver unicorn into my appartment
May 24 09:19:05 <Stskeeps> and please don't try to push your mainframe into ours ;)
May 24 09:19:14 <RST38h> It takes space, eats too much, and has a tendency of laying a turd
May 24 09:19:27 <thiago_home> the point is: for limited CPUs, you have to use GPUs
May 24 09:19:35 <th0br0> lcuk: what can it not render? GL has been more powerful than dx for ages
May 24 09:19:36 <thiago_home> they exist, they are there, they consume less power to produce the same result
May 24 09:19:37 <RST38h> limited CPUs have no GPUs
May 24 09:19:52 <RST38h> you should simply design the UI to avoid bloat
May 24 09:20:02 <thiago_home> that's the point
May 24 09:20:12 <thiago_home> it's not bloat, it's what people ask for: animations, fluid
May 24 09:20:28 <lcuk> neither need gl
May 24 09:20:33 <thiago_home> doing that in the CPU would mean poor battery life, if you even can do it
May 24 09:20:38 <lcuk> and gl adds overhead
May 24 09:20:40 <thiago_home> doing it in the GPU helps a lot
May 24 09:20:55 <lcuk> i was doing fluid animations on the n810
May 24 09:21:03 <sx0n> cpu only is so 90's
May 24 09:21:15 <thiago_home> lcuk: how much CPU % consumed to do 60 fps?
May 24 09:21:56 <lcuk> thiago_home, depends whats happening (and max tear free FPS on n900 YUV mode is 57)
May 24 09:22:07 <lcuk> achieved often
May 24 09:22:29 <thiago_home> 90+% CPU?
May 24 09:22:33 <lcuk> nahhh
May 24 09:22:39 <lcuk> liqflow uses 50% for that
May 24 09:22:49 <lcuk> most other things are even less
May 24 09:22:57 <thiago_home> good
May 24 09:22:59 <lcuk> flow only has heavy particle physics
May 24 09:23:29 <thiago_home> anyway, I'm not a graphics developer
May 24 09:23:36 <thiago_home> talk to those who are and they'll explain the issue
May 24 09:23:49 <thiago_home> point being: GL is the future and we're acting accordingly
May 24 09:23:53 <RST38h> thiago: I have not asked for animations
May 24 09:23:58 <thiago_home> RST38h: users have
May 24 09:24:08 <suihkulokki> the issue is that people beliebve gpu is a magic bullet that makes things automatically fast :)
May 24 09:24:09 <RST38h> thiago: provide the list
May 24 09:24:18 <lcuk> thiago_home, on the dui toolkit example does that use gl?
May 24 09:24:26 <lcuk> +1 suihkulokki
May 24 09:24:30 <thiago_home> lcuk: yes
May 24 09:24:35 <lcuk> eep!
May 24 09:24:50 <thiago_home> RST38h: don't be absurd.
May 24 09:25:04 <th0br0> RST38h: go out there, talk to the average non-gui user.
May 24 09:25:11 <RST38h> thiago: The moment you said "GL is the future so we should all use it", you set the tone for absurdity
May 24 09:25:13 <th0br0> eeh non-geek
May 24 09:25:13 <th0br0> :S
May 24 09:25:27 <lcuk> thiago_home, you might have missed this little nugget that w00t_ posted: http://blog.rburchell.com/2010/05/using-platform-rendering-for-widgets-in.html
May 24 09:25:28 <RST38h> non-gui user? you mean command line user? :)
May 24 09:25:31 <lcuk> its a great short read :)
May 24 09:25:32 <thiago_home> RST38h: again, don't be absurd. What I said is not absurdity.
May 24 09:25:36 * slaine still likes Clutter despite this thread
May 24 09:25:44 <th0br0> RST38h: non-geek as i said :D
May 24 09:25:45 <sx0n> gpu can be really used for some other things than just ui toolkit e.g. like games.
May 24 09:26:13 <thiago_home> RST38h: the point was that there's a processor dedicated for doing graphics and vector operations. And it consumes less power to do that compared to the CPU.
May 24 09:26:16 <thiago_home> RST38h: why the hell not use it?
May 24 09:26:45 <Bostik> just my opinion, but using GL (and as much hardware routines for drawing things on screen as possible) makes sense even from a technical point of view; a 2D screen is just a perfectly aligned plane and hence a special case of 3D
May 24 09:26:57 <RST38h> thiago: Because it requires GPU (not found in cheap hardware), binds GPU context (cannot run desktop GL apps), and makes programming more complicated
May 24 09:27:16 <thiago_home> RST38h: do you use threads in your applications?
May 24 09:27:30 <slaine> cpu/gpu is a tick/tock type thing. eventually the gpu will become a math unit on the cpu again. So gpu per se isn't the issue. The issue is how to deliver an experience that attracts customers and satisfies users.
May 24 09:27:36 <lcuk> thiago_home, so all qpainter operations are driven directly on the gpu?
May 24 09:27:39 <RST38h> thiago: So, if you do want to advocate GL use for 2D, you should provide enough real advantages to offset that
May 24 09:27:48 <RST38h> thiago: Sometimes, whenI need them
May 24 09:27:50 <lcuk> ie if i draw a line, its converted directly to GL operations?
May 24 09:27:56 <thiago_home> lcuk: with the opengl paint engine, yes, most of them.
May 24 09:27:57 <lcuk> or its drawn using CPU onto a texture
May 24 09:27:59 <thiago_home> lcuk: check with the graphics devs.
May 24 09:28:34 <th0br0> Isn't it like the whole useflow that is the big advantage? I mean, you make your changes and then push the update to the gpu
May 24 09:28:34 <thiago_home> RST38h: battery life is one advantage. Freeing the CPU to do other tasks (or power down) is another.
May 24 09:28:46 <thiago_home> RST38h: faster/quicker operations is a third.
May 24 09:29:20 <RST38h> thiago: actually UI spends most time blocked, waiting for input. So, these do not count
May 24 09:29:32 <thiago_home> except when you try to do 60 fps animations
May 24 09:29:42 <thiago_home> and *that* is where the GPU comes in
May 24 09:30:53 <RST38h> thiago: I see no place for animations in UI
May 24 09:31:02 <thiago_home> too bad, because we do and users are asking for it
May 24 09:31:17 <sx0n> e.g. in iphone? it makes operations smooth and responsive.
May 24 09:31:19 <RST38h> thiago: most users I have seen are just asking for a speedy ui
May 24 09:31:27 <RST38h> they do not ask for more eyecandy
May 24 09:32:07 <thiago_home> painting a 800x480 screen is also faster with GPU
May 24 09:32:24 <thiago_home> rather than blitting and then transferring to the video card
May 24 09:32:33 <lcuk> only because GL missed out the x11 network transfer
May 24 09:32:42 <th0br0> RST38h: once they've got the speedy ui, they'll want animations
May 24 09:32:49 <lcuk> its similar to xvideo in that regard
May 24 09:33:12 <thiago_home> lcuk: the only way to do something equivalent is to ask the server-side to do some of the operations for you
May 24 09:33:16 <thiago_home> that is known as XRender
May 24 09:33:23 <thiago_home> right?
May 24 09:33:36 <RST38h> th0br0: Most users are actually quite down to earth and would simply like a UI that works fast and requires the minimal amount of hassle
May 24 09:33:48 <RST38h> I see no reason why that would involve animations
May 24 09:33:50 <lcuk> dunno, i just know the pipeline for x11 is its biggest hangup
May 24 09:34:00 <sx0n> my farmville ui is very heavy, it really needs a gpu.
May 24 09:34:03 <thiago_home> lcuk: then you reduce the bandwidth consumed by doing vector operations
May 24 09:34:04 <RST38h> and why you would absolutely need to tie GL hw for that
May 24 09:34:08 <th0br0> sx0n: that's flash though
May 24 09:34:17 <thiago_home> lcuk: you send commands instead of sending huge rasterisations
May 24 09:34:38 <thiago_home> RST38h: go talk to the graphics devs
May 24 09:34:40 <lcuk> sure, but even that isnt enough sometimes
May 24 09:34:44 <thiago_home> RST38h: tomorrow at this time in #qt-labs
May 24 09:34:49 <lcuk> its easy to overuse the cpu gpu etc
May 24 09:34:50 <sx0n> th0br0, yes, so is this just Qt should not use gpu but other programs could?
May 24 09:34:52 <thiago_home> RST38h: I'll point you to who to talk to. They'll explain why.
May 24 09:34:57 <RST38h> graphics devs always love using the latest hw they have got
May 24 09:35:02 <th0br0> huh sx0n?
May 24 09:35:05 <thiago_home> RST38h: yes, of course.
May 24 09:35:06 <lcuk> and whichever toolkit would benefit from trimming down and losing as many layers as possible
May 24 09:35:07 <RST38h> so they are not the right people to tlak to here
May 24 09:35:10 <thiago_home> RST38h: why not?
May 24 09:35:26 <th0br0> RST38h: in the future, a device without eyecandy will clearly be lagging behind
May 24 09:35:29 <th0br0> so why provoke that situation?
May 24 09:35:30 <thiago_home> RST38h: "hey, I've got hardware that can do these cool things. Why shouldn't I use it?"
May 24 09:35:49 <RST38h> thiago: because other people have not got the same hw
May 24 09:35:56 <thiago_home> RST38h: no, they do
May 24 09:36:03 <thiago_home> RST38h: we're starting from the assumption that the hw is there
May 24 09:36:08 <thiago_home> RST38h: tell me why the HW shouldn't be used.
May 24 09:36:17 <RST38h> wrong assumption for a portable open source project
May 24 09:36:27 <thiago_home> RST38h: the raster engine isn't going anywhere
May 24 09:36:39 <thiago_home> RST38h: but there is HW. Tell me why not use it.
May 24 09:36:43 <RST38h> Case in question: Meego
May 24 09:36:47 <thiago_home> yes, MeeGo
May 24 09:36:49 <th0br0> RST38h: tell me a modern *smartphone* that hasn't got a GLES GPU onboard.
May 24 09:36:51 <thiago_home> MeeGo requires OpenGL ES and OpenGL
May 24 09:36:55 <RST38h> Cannot be easily run without PowerVR
May 24 09:37:09 <thiago_home> right, HW support is required.
May 24 09:37:27 <RST38h> So, none of the cheaper chinese made Socs will be able to run it
May 24 09:37:32 <thiago_home> yeah, so?
May 24 09:37:50 <lcuk> i hear meego wont run on the nokia netbook
May 24 09:38:01 <thiago_home> lcuk: don't talk about the booklet...
May 24 09:38:02 <lcuk> because of intel drivers or soemthing
May 24 09:38:14 * thiago_home is sad about that
May 24 09:38:20 <RST38h> hehe
May 24 09:38:29 <RST38h> thiago: why not? let us talk about the booklet...
May 24 09:38:32 <lcuk> just having hardware does not mean its usable
May 24 09:38:38 * Stskeeps is still hoping for a proper iegd 
May 24 09:38:58 * RST38h has solved this in a different way inside his team
May 24 09:39:04 <thiago_home> if MeeGo is to ship on the booklet, then either the driver will be provided, or the HW will be changed.
May 24 09:39:12 <thiago_home> it's pointless for a company to ship HW that is unused.
May 24 09:39:26 <thiago_home> so RST38h hasn't yet explained to me why the GPU shouldn't be used when it's there.
May 24 09:39:35 * RST38h xplained that, twice
May 24 09:39:38 <thiago_home> no, you didn't
May 24 09:39:45 <sx0n> i think that one way would provide software opengl drivers for it.
May 24 09:39:52 <thiago_home> there is a good GPU and the drivers are available. Why shouldn't it be used?
May 24 09:39:52 <sx0n> but that's crap.
May 24 09:40:07 <RST38h> thiago: You mean PowerVR by that?
May 24 09:40:16 <RST38h> "good GPU and drivers"?
May 24 09:40:18 <thiago_home> I'm not saying that one is good or that the drivers are good.
May 24 09:40:26 <RST38h> go talk to arjan ;)
May 24 09:41:03 <thiago_home> take a case where that is true. Why shouldn't the hardware be used?
May 24 09:41:46 <sx0n> n810 had opengl hw, it was not used.
May 24 09:41:57 <sx0n> i still wonder why not.
May 24 09:42:02 <suihkulokki> one worrying aspect of having the ui toolkit use opengl is that most developers are completly incompetent in profiling opengl, and putting a layer in between makes it even more tricky to figure out why one's ui is slow
May 24 09:42:11 <lcuk> agreed it should be used, but certainly for people like RST38h who just want long life and simple effective ui
May 24 09:42:28 <lcuk> suihkulokki, but with opengl its not slow
May 24 09:42:33 <lcuk> just throw more hardware
May 24 09:42:34 <thiago_home> suihkulokki: that's why we believe the UI should be declarative and there should be a good translation layer to OpenGL commands.
May 24 09:43:09 <thiago_home> suihkulokki: so all the GL scheduling and the profiling is done in one place
May 24 09:43:21 * lcuk would be happy with an uber fast qpainter
May 24 09:43:31 <thiago_home> lcuk: the problem is QPainter API
May 24 09:43:33 <thiago_home> it's imperative
May 24 09:44:10 <lcuk> thiago_home, so?
May 24 09:44:27 <lcuk> its what people understand - oh time to paint, woooooooo line line box line cirle
May 24 09:44:34 <thiago_home> right
May 24 09:44:36 <RST38h> Declarative UI has been known at least since Motif
May 24 09:44:43 <RST38h> Didn't help Motif any
May 24 09:44:46 <thiago_home> and what does the backend do? paint them in the order you gave
May 24 09:44:54 <RST38h> Not that it is a bad thing, of course
May 24 09:44:56 <thiago_home> even though there's clearly a better order
May 24 09:45:10 <lcuk> thiago_home, mmm ?
May 24 09:45:24 <thiago_home> go read gunnar's blog.
May 24 09:45:51 <thiago_home> imagine you have two buttons
May 24 09:46:05 <thiago_home> the buttons have backgrounds, a shape and text
May 24 09:46:15 <thiago_home> what's the proper order of painting?
May 24 09:46:56 <sx0n> i think that declarative fits better for opengl retained mode than imperative apis. correct wtg imo.
May 24 09:47:25 <lcuk> recurse into each child performing polyfills followed by caption glyphs for each
May 24 09:47:40 * Stskeeps is worried about no widget toolkit in QML
May 24 09:47:50 <RST38h> Sts: ?
May 24 09:47:50 <Stskeeps> ie, no consistent UI amongst apps
May 24 09:47:56 <RST38h> ah that
May 24 09:48:05 <RST38h> well it depends on how disciplined developers are
May 24 09:48:22 <RST38h> and you can run some kind of QML "lint" utility that checks QML scripts for uniform UI
May 24 09:49:12 <lcuk> thats feedback loop between developer/designer/tester
May 24 09:49:15 <thiago_home> Stskeeps: qt-components
May 24 09:49:32 * RST38h would prohibit use of absolute cooridnates inside QML scripts for example
May 24 09:49:35 * Stskeeps looks
May 24 09:49:36 <lcuk> and the designer should know and understand the cosntraints of the toolkit/ui expectaitons
May 24 09:49:49 <lcuk> expectations
May 24 09:52:36 <thiago_home> lcuk: so paint background, paint border, paint text
May 24 09:52:41 <thiago_home> lcuk: then repeat for the other button?
May 24 09:53:11 <lcuk> nahh if you paint border first you get crap when you do polyfill
May 24 09:53:22 <lcuk> so fill background, draw text, then add border
May 24 09:53:27 <lcuk> but yeah
May 24 09:53:28 <thiago_home> ok
May 24 09:53:35 <thiago_home> but then you draw the other button, repeating the same operations?
May 24 09:53:42 <lcuk> yeah
May 24 09:53:57 <thiago_home> what if I told you it's faster to draw both backgrounds first, then both texts, then the borders?
May 24 09:53:58 <lcuk> exactly the same as if you did them in retained mode and built meshes for each
May 24 09:54:41 <lcuk> then i would ask why your graphics operations are so laggy, these are concepts used in computer rendering for 30 years
May 24 09:55:09 <thiago_home> because you're changing states
May 24 09:55:49 <thiago_home> that's how the HW operates
May 24 09:56:39 <lcuk> sure it does
May 24 09:57:05 <lcuk> but you have to ask why the difference is so great
May 24 09:57:15 <lcuk> that you HAVE to find an alternative path
May 24 09:57:34 <thiago_home> right
May 24 09:57:51 <thiago_home> the alternative path is to know what you're going to draw, so the renderer can reorder the operations to their optimum
May 24 09:58:03 <lcuk> how does it know the optimum?
May 24 10:01:10 <thiago_home> it's optimised per GPU
May 24 10:01:17 <thiago_home> it knows what the GPU likes best
May 24 10:01:23 <thiago_home> you know, like the compiler does
May 24 10:02:48 <lcuk> sure, but if thats happening per frame based on render contents isnt that going to use ~= cpu than the difference in brute force render ops
May 24 10:05:18 <thiago_home> so that's the next step: know what will happen in the next frame
May 24 10:05:19 <thiago_home> right?
May 24 10:06:19 <lcuk> thiago_home, i dunno thiago_home im not a mind reader :P
May 24 10:06:57 <frals> youre not? DOH need to stop assuming that :(
May 24 10:07:35 <lcuk> i knew you were gonna say that frals :p
May 24 10:07:39 <thiago_home> lcuk: the point is: the only way to optimise is to know what the scene contains as a whole
May 24 10:07:48 <thiago_home> and possibly know what the scene is going to do next
May 24 10:07:54 <thiago_home> hence the scene graph research and QML
May 24 10:09:03 <lcuk> sure theres many ways to skin a cat
May 24 10:15:57 <lcuk> thiago_home, start all optimisation by peeling back the layers and asking why at each stage.  discard/refactor anything without a clear purpose.
May 24 12:36:55 <Anil> hi any body have idea which webkit revision meego uses...?
May 24 12:38:50 <thiago_home> Anil: 4fb414b38f7c7c8439ce6a4323f1acb057a3ff20
May 24 12:39:15 <Anil> whats that?
May 24 12:39:46 <thiago_home> Anil: the revision that Qt 4.6.2 uses
May 24 12:44:57 <Anil> thiago_home:i am asking about the webkit  build revision...other wise whats the last upmerged revision of webkit in meego...
May 24 12:45:08 <thiago_home> Anil: this is the revision
May 24 12:45:16 <thiago_home> QtWebKit is tracked on Git, not on Subversion
May 24 12:45:53 <thiago_home> wait, there's a SVN revision for this one: 58257
May 24 12:56:17 <thiago_home> Anil: did that answer your question?
May 24 13:08:15 <achipa> though there are some patches over that... right ? (i.e. it's not the same webkit for all of 4.6.2)
May 24 13:08:29 <thiago_home> no, that's the exact same as far as I can tell
May 24 13:08:52 <thiago_home> it's not organised the same way, but it's the same sources
May 24 13:09:43 <achipa> thiago: hm, but... then how can it be that for exampe 'old' 4.6.2 worked with flash content fine, while 'new' 4.6.2 is FUBAR ?
May 24 13:10:07 <achipa> (where old = maemo edition in extras-devel, new = one that is in PR1.2 SDK)
May 24 13:10:34 <achipa> s/exampe/example/
May 24 13:10:54 <thiago_home> hum
May 24 13:10:59 <thiago_home> you asked MeeGo, not Maemo5
May 24 13:11:31 <achipa> didn't know maemo5 has 'special' treatment with regard to qtwebkit :)
May 24 13:11:49 <thiago_home> lots
May 24 13:11:54 <thiago_home> to all of Qt
May 24 13:12:21 <achipa> (yes, assumed for QtGui and system services, qtwebkit seemed fairly self-contained)
May 24 13:13:15 <thiago_home> 11 patches to webkit
May 24 13:13:19 <thiago_home> including the kinetic scroller
May 24 13:13:32 <achipa> my problem is something keyboard related
May 24 13:13:42 <achipa> the moment you press a key BAM, your flash is dead
May 24 13:14:01 <Anil> hey thiago_home.....thanks for the reply.....yes..
May 24 13:14:32 <achipa> but I'm hijacking the channel :) qt-maemo is just too quiet :)
May 24 15:01:22 <jmk> http://marc.info/?l=linux-security-module&m=127470821201325&w=2
May 24 15:01:49 <jmk> expecting selinux guys to pop up any second
May 24 15:02:16 <jmk> 'no! we have the one true way to nirvana!'
May 24 15:03:10 <timeless_mbp> slaine: hey, do you know anything about bugs.meego.com?
May 24 15:03:18 <timeless_mbp> i'm wondering of there's an SLA for it :)
May 24 15:04:08 <slaine> timeless_mbp: I know there where scheduled moves for some servers to OSU. Not sure when that was supposed to happen though
May 24 15:04:31 <slaine> mshaver would be the person to ask I assume
May 24 15:05:10 <timeless_mbp> i'm thinking more along the lines of "if a random person files a bug, and provides a patch, how long should that person expect to wait before someone says 'oh, thanks'"
May 24 15:05:41 * timeless_mbp already asked about DNS and hasn't gotten a response
May 24 15:06:03 <timeless_mbp> http://bugs.meego.com/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=reporter%3Atimeless
May 24 15:08:37 * GAN900 bets it depends on the product.
May 24 15:10:47 <timeless_mbp> i've used 2 products!
May 24 15:11:10 <timeless_mbp> i'd use more, but i forgot to keep track of all the packages whose sources where NOT READABLE BY ANYONE!
May 24 15:11:20 * timeless_mbp kicks stupid stupid stupid stupid packagers
May 24 15:17:08 * CosmoHill pets timeless_mbp 
May 24 16:29:28 <reshwindblade> so anyone here has an idea when the actual build will be ready for netbooks?
May 24 16:29:59 <reshwindblade> like the one demoed in Intel Dev Forum 2010, Beijing
May 24 16:30:51 <happyblob> end of may I think
May 24 16:31:10 <happyblob> I assume you just mean a public release with the netbook UX (gui) running?
May 24 16:32:10 <reshwindblade> yup, not the shell
May 24 16:32:43 <reshwindblade> just saw on youtube/ChannelIntel they have a demo live on Netbook and other devices
May 24 16:32:46 <happyblob> yeah I seem to remember reading it would by around the end of this month :-)
May 24 16:33:19 <berserker> happyblob, thanks for the good news :)
May 24 16:33:33 <happyblob> if you want to get a flavour of the look and feel, you could always try running a live session of Moblin
May 24 16:33:34 <reshwindblade> the problem is Nokia announce Symbian ^3 and delayed that too , not sure if this going to be delayed
May 24 16:33:47 <reshwindblade> coz today = 25th (for me), only 6 more days till end of may
May 24 16:35:00 <reshwindblade> Moblin 2.1 was on my netbook for sometime, but it is bad, their status update was only for Last.fm and Twitter, no integration to other social services, and their "zones" was abit confusing at first, hopefully this new version will fix it
May 24 16:35:39 <happyblob> yeah I'm thinking much the same!
May 24 16:36:26 <reshwindblade> anyways this is the link :-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub_cwsJnQps IDF2010, can see they already have the GUI for Phone, Netbook, TV and Kiosk
May 24 16:37:41 <happyblob> thanks for sharing, i'd somehow missed that vid!
May 24 16:38:14 <reshwindblade> no problem, dont know why that video wasnt on the official nokia or intel channel, but it does show the UI for MeeGo
May 24 16:42:15 <thiago_home> what does Symbian^3 have to do with anything?
May 24 16:42:33 <reshwindblade> no it doesnt, i said i hope it doesnt get delayed like it only
May 24 16:42:36 <reshwindblade> :)
May 24 16:43:02 <reshwindblade> coz Nokia announced MeeGo end of May, only 6-7 days left
May 24 16:48:37 <reshwindblade> foresee Internet Service Providers and Telcos/Carriers going to hate MeeGo (since using cloud storage)
May 24 16:49:38 <thiago_home> why?
May 24 16:51:14 <reshwindblade> well from the demo at IDF2010, they trying to do put a media in 1 device and will be access by all
May 24 16:51:29 <reshwindblade> like having a whole music folder online (or at a PC at home)
May 24 16:51:35 <reshwindblade> and stream to your phone
May 24 16:51:44 <lcuk> did it say streaming?
May 24 16:51:44 <reshwindblade> i am sure carriers will enjoy that
May 24 16:51:49 <lcuk> it said syncing
May 24 16:51:58 <reshwindblade> same thing need to download
May 24 16:52:02 <reshwindblade> and yea u are right
May 24 16:52:05 <lcuk> and then if both devices have the same media
May 24 16:52:06 <reshwindblade> my bad
May 24 16:52:13 <reshwindblade> yup like a DropBox
May 24 16:52:16 <lcuk> its just a case of playmovie(x.avi,25seconds)
May 24 16:52:28 <reshwindblade> but still this will mean bandwidth usage
May 24 16:52:43 <lcuk> well i do  that sort of stuff at home
May 24 16:52:49 <lcuk> over wifi or usb
May 24 16:52:51 <reshwindblade> maybe not a problem for most people in USA/UK, but I am from Asia, bandwidth here = expensive
May 24 16:52:58 <lcuk> i dont try downloading movies on the go
May 24 16:53:27 <reshwindblade> yea well need to wait the actual release to see the features
May 24 16:53:45 <reshwindblade> but lets say it Syncs between devices
May 24 16:53:50 <reshwindblade> this would be it is stored online
May 24 16:53:59 <reshwindblade> wonder how many GB cloud storage we get
May 24 16:54:03 <reshwindblade> hehe
May 24 16:54:15 <thiago_home> carriers will enjoy if users pay for the traffic
May 24 16:54:28 <thiago_home> or you can use the wifi at home
May 24 16:54:59 <lcuk> please wait, syncing movies (7 hours remaining)
May 24 16:55:00 <reshwindblade> yup true
May 24 16:55:08 <reshwindblade> O.O
May 24 16:55:57 <reshwindblade> one thing is confusing , Maemo 6 also coming out soon
May 24 16:56:05 <reshwindblade> and I taught MeeGo suppose to replace maemo
May 24 16:56:43 <happyblob> yeah Maemo will technically be an 'instance' of meego but not a meego version itself
May 24 16:56:54 <happyblob> it does seem awfully confusing I think
May 24 16:57:04 <happyblob> perhaps not for people in the know, but certainly typical end users
May 24 16:57:13 <reshwindblade> well maybe for developers it is ok
May 24 16:57:24 <reshwindblade> think of what problem Android faces
May 24 16:57:32 <reshwindblade> 1.5, 1.6 , 2.0 , 2.1 etc
May 24 16:57:38 <reshwindblade> to developers = problem
May 24 16:57:46 <reshwindblade> regular users are ignorant to it
May 24 16:58:30 <reshwindblade> Maemo 6, MeeGo 1 , Moblin (not sure if a moblin phone is coming)
May 24 16:58:30 <happyblob> i'm worried about fragmentation in MeeGo as well, given the scope of the project.. but i'm not technically enough to *really* be worrying
May 24 16:58:41 <happyblob> technical*
May 24 16:59:00 <reshwindblade> as long it uses a Rolling upgrade method should be fine
May 24 16:59:16 <reshwindblade> so that way Nokia/Intel can keep all devices the same
May 24 16:59:41 <reshwindblade> this is what i hope, that they threat it as a Full Blow OS, instead of just a Mobile OS.
May 24 17:00:16 <reshwindblade> something like how Windows/Linux is, buy a PC from any OEM but you will get the updates for it regardless of hardware OEM.
May 24 17:00:47 <reshwindblade> but not sure about MeeGo? anyone can clarify how they plan to handle the updates?
May 24 17:02:52 <happyblob> I'm just speculating here but i dont think they'll be able to make it anything like as simple as Windows
May 24 17:03:08 <happyblob> just because they have different UX layers which will be developed using different technologies
May 24 17:03:32 <happyblob> unless they actively synchronize updates over all platforms
May 24 17:03:37 * lbt watches this one...   popcorn anyone?
May 24 17:03:38 <reshwindblade> well I am a web dev, this not my cup of tea, so I am clueless about this.
May 24 17:04:07 * TSCHAKeee just shakes head and goes back to doing productive work. I love it when users talk out of their ass
May 24 17:04:12 <reshwindblade> but that is the only way I can see to reduce fragmentation
May 24 17:04:14 <happyblob> lbt, stop being quiet, you know more about this than both of us combined
May 24 17:04:25 <happyblob> :)
May 24 17:04:34 <happyblob> (not sarcasm!)
May 24 17:04:41 <TSCHAKeee> I swear
May 24 17:04:50 <TSCHAKeee> this project hasn't even reached 1.0 yet
May 24 17:05:01 <TSCHAKeee> and the clueless user masses are already predicting doom and gloom
May 24 17:05:02 <reshwindblade> it is an open-discussion
May 24 17:05:43 <happyblob> I did say i was speculating! :-P
May 24 17:05:46 <TSCHAKeee> if you actually want to know these things
May 24 17:05:53 <reshwindblade> it is not like we are saying "going to kill Iphone" or "it is 1337 phone"
May 24 17:05:53 <TSCHAKeee> why don't you dig into the mailing lists?
May 24 17:05:56 <reshwindblade> lol
May 24 17:06:07 <TSCHAKeee> participate in the meetings
May 24 17:06:14 <happyblob> i'm in the community one but the technical is a bit beyond me
May 24 17:06:37 <reshwindblade> you will have to forgive me I just joined
May 24 17:06:37 * tripzero waves hand "these are not the droids you are looking for"
May 24 17:06:46 <reshwindblade> i was planning to join the next meeting
May 24 17:07:08 <tripzero> each meego platform should probably considered in its own terms
May 24 17:08:04 <happyblob> so if theres some big update on my netbook i shouldn't assume it means there's something coming for my phone?
May 24 17:08:10 <tripzero> right
May 24 17:08:17 <lbt> happyblob, reshwindblade; speculation is rarely constructive at this point. Fun maybe, but not really constructive. Especially comparative speculation. And double especially saying "it won't be as good as windows because...."
May 24 17:08:18 <tripzero> unless it's a core OS package
May 24 17:08:44 <lbt> better would be to try and understand why it is done the way it is...
May 24 17:08:57 <reshwindblade> haha the windows comment not mine :) but thanks for the info about the update
May 24 17:09:44 <lbt> many smart people got it to that point... when you *really* know why they got there feel free to critique; until then assume you're wrong. (I do)
May 24 17:09:47 <reshwindblade> ok but from my understanding it is going to be like how Linux is now
May 24 17:09:48 <happyblob> sorry, didnt phrase it very well, i just mean because windows is one big OS only on PC's its easier to push updates to it then an OS which is used in kiosks, cars, phones etc. Didn't mean it'd be worse
May 24 17:09:53 <reshwindblade> Ubuntu, Fedora, OpenSUSE
May 24 17:10:08 <reshwindblade> if the core (kernel example updates, all might get it , but different timing)
May 24 17:10:35 <lbt> so yes, there was some discussion about fragmentation in android in the news today
May 24 17:10:41 <lbt> and it's relevant
May 24 17:10:52 <lbt> but meego is too new to have answers
May 24 17:11:28 <lbt> OTOH there are deployed solutions from maemo, android, apple, and all the linux distros that we can learn from
May 24 17:12:04 <reshwindblade> i dont know how you included Apple with the word linux distros but go on
May 24 17:12:22 <lbt> they're an OS
May 24 17:12:30 <reshwindblade> ah k :)
May 24 17:12:38 <lbt> they solve the problem in their way... restrict a lot
May 24 17:12:41 <lbt> it works
May 24 17:12:54 <poutsi> the android problem is made worse by e.g. finnish carriers who are still pushing phones with 1.5... it feels like they don't care about the platform enough to bother upgrading the offerings
May 24 17:13:21 <lbt> the android problem is that they're not ready for consumers IMHO
May 24 17:13:48 <reshwindblade> poutsi, finnish still no Android market
May 24 17:13:51 <poutsi> sort of my feeling too, but they're damn well ready enough for me, i just want the new stuff, not the relatively ancient
May 24 17:13:55 <lbt> although in the mobile market the lifetime of a phone is prett short
May 24 17:14:10 <lbt> poutsi: so are you a "consumer"?
May 24 17:14:15 <TSCHAKeee> and it's getting shorter.
May 24 17:14:18 <reshwindblade> the reason i looking towards MeeGo/Maemo, it is because Android (as good as it is) doesnt support many contries like Nokia
May 24 17:14:22 <poutsi> lbt, not really
May 24 17:14:36 <poutsi> not a mass market average consumer anyway
May 24 17:14:39 <reshwindblade> my country till today no Android App store (free one also dont have), but got OVi
May 24 17:14:43 <arjan> android is trying to change the rules
May 24 17:14:51 <arjan> and frankly, meego would like that same change to happen
May 24 17:14:58 <arjan> where it's not an embedded "develop once and then forget"
May 24 17:15:04 <arjan> but get better quickly on a high innovation pace
May 24 17:15:05 <lbt> yes, but as the cost rises TSCHAKeee, then the people who buy will be less bleeding edge (like poutsi) and will expect longer term support
May 24 17:15:12 <CosmoHill> hey arjan and lbt
May 24 17:15:18 <arjan> rather than the embedded "fork and hten spend a year on something and then forget about it"
May 24 17:15:29 <TSCHAKeee> lbt, i agree.
May 24 17:16:05 <reshwindblade> ok what I gather from this is basically, you are saying that it is going to be controlled/restricted to an extent
May 24 17:16:30 <lbt> reshwindblade: not sure where you get that?
May 24 17:16:45 <reshwindblade> earlier u mention how Apple does it an it works
May 24 17:16:45 <lbt> my apple comment?
May 24 17:16:46 <w00t_> by taking "apple restrict stuff" and somehow extrapolating that meego will do the same
May 24 17:16:48 <poutsi> it's just... i don't see how android is a platform for anything but "the cool new thing" atm, and the carriers are (intentionally?) crippling them, perhaps so that iphones and nokias sell better :p
May 24 17:16:53 <reshwindblade> i taught u meant this should be the same
May 24 17:16:55 <poutsi> or maybe that's reading too much into it
May 24 17:16:59 <lbt> nah, it's just "a model"
May 24 17:17:02 <TSCHAKeee> you read too much into it.
May 24 17:17:19 <arjan> if the carrier thinks that restricting its users is a smart business decision, capitalism will make sure that that gets solved ;-)
May 24 17:17:24 <poutsi> anyway, it irks me :)
May 24 17:17:28 <lbt> china has pretty good crime levels.... I don't agree with how they do it though :)
May 24 17:17:45 <reshwindblade> Nokia sells well in my country (malaysia), but problem is Apple's marketing here is aggressive, when people think Nokia it is always low end phones, and Apple = high end
May 24 17:18:27 <TSCHAKeee> the issue here also, is that in the android market, there are a few vendors who are pushing their flavour of android phone to be _the_ phone to have.
May 24 17:18:31 <reshwindblade> local reviews for N900 = 6/10 , stating there is not much apps
May 24 17:18:34 <lbt> how carriers and device vendors manage meego based devices.... I dunno
May 24 17:18:52 <w00t_> lbt: personally, I'd like them to _not_ manage them
May 24 17:18:54 <TSCHAKeee> time will tell whether somebody does this with a MeeGo based phone.
May 24 17:19:13 <w00t_> seriously, every time carriers get directly involved in the software on a phone I've seen, it's complete crap
May 24 17:19:22 <TSCHAKeee> and yes, how the carriers lock things down.
May 24 17:19:26 <lbt> In the UK we have a Sale Of Goods act.... and it says that devices must be fit for purpose.... and I think there's an expectation of reasonable duration support....
May 24 17:19:35 <TSCHAKeee> w00t_, still doesn't change the fact that they do it as a matter of practice, rather than exception.
May 24 17:19:44 <reshwindblade> @w00t_ you mean AT&T's motorola backflip?
May 24 17:19:53 <w00t_> TSCHAKeee: no idea what you're talking about
May 24 17:20:06 <TSCHAKeee> <w00t_> seriously, every time carriers get directly involved in the software on a phone I've seen, it's complete crap
May 24 17:20:16 <lbt> w00t_: the issue is the business models rely on tying consumers into service contracts
May 24 17:20:17 <w00t_> still not getting your point
May 24 17:20:30 <w00t_> if you're saying that it's a matter of practice that they suck at putting together phone firmware, I'd agree
May 24 17:20:51 <lbt> carriers think they can do that via restrictions and "cool software" that has a logo on it
May 24 17:20:54 <reshwindblade> actually lbt, depends on countries, some country like mine hardly anyone buys from carriers, all buy from normal phone shops
May 24 17:20:54 <w00t_> lbt: yeah, well, that's one of the reasons I don't bother with a contract
May 24 17:20:56 <TSCHAKeee> that they feel it's in their best interest to mess with the firmware.
May 24 17:21:16 <lbt> reshwindblade: very true... the I8n aspect is hard to grasp
May 24 17:21:20 <TSCHAKeee> cell carriers are still very much into their "island" mentality
May 24 17:21:43 <lcuk> walled garden
May 24 17:21:45 <TSCHAKeee> in mst of the western world, anyway.
May 24 17:21:51 <TSCHAKeee> yup
May 24 17:22:07 <lcuk> for XYZ phone user i dont blame them
May 24 17:22:27 <lcuk> reduces support costs, prevents going off the rails etc
May 24 17:22:28 <lbt> the problem arises when they deploy meego to XYZ
May 24 17:22:31 <TSCHAKeee> have you SEEN the average phone user? ... yeah...
May 24 17:22:33 <TSCHAKeee> :P
May 24 17:22:52 <reshwindblade> lbt, malaysia carriers started selling phones but only give a USD 40 discount on a USD 500+ phone. Would you buy a phone with 40 USD discount and be tied to a contract? or pay extra 40 USD and no contract. Sadly all phones here like that so smartphones are not a success yet.
May 24 17:22:56 <lcuk> TSCHAKeee, of course, and you should also have some respect for them if you want your software on their device
May 24 17:23:02 <TSCHAKeee> OHEMGEE! WHERE IS TEH FACEBOOK APP?!
May 24 17:23:04 <TSCHAKeee> yes.
May 24 17:23:19 <lbt> lcuk: it's hard
May 24 17:23:22 <lbt> so hard
May 24 17:23:28 <lcuk> i would answer that as, well where IS the facebook app
May 24 17:23:30 <lcuk> and look @ w00t_
May 24 17:23:40 * w00t_ looks shifty
May 24 17:23:54 <lbt> facebook user ^^^
May 24 17:23:57 <TSCHAKeee> Apple did a number on everybody, convincing them that they needed apps
May 24 17:24:11 <lcuk> TSCHAKeee, one thing you should never do is under estimate your customers
May 24 17:24:14 <TSCHAKeee> (which btw, was a complete about face from their ORIGINAL standpoint on the iPhone, anyone remember that?)
May 24 17:24:17 * happyblob realizes users have no place here!
May 24 17:24:21 <reshwindblade> lcuk, remember only UK and US people try to get phones from carriers, rest of the world mostly buys from regular shops
May 24 17:24:25 <lbt> happyblob: not true
May 24 17:24:40 <lbt> happyblob: we encourage learning and participation
May 24 17:24:57 <lbt> ignorance is a great place to start :)
May 24 17:25:02 <TSCHAKeee> don't mind the few of us that are assholes. :)
May 24 17:25:03 <w00t_> some say it's bliss
May 24 17:25:36 <lbt> what we're not keen on is users who think that they have the answers....
May 24 17:25:42 <poutsi> the bliss of a light breeze on a hot day until the whale crashes on your head, yes
May 24 17:26:05 <happyblob> okay, my apologies :)
May 24 17:26:08 <TSCHAKeee> or users who want...eeeeeeeeeeverything...spoon...fed...to...them....without chewing on it even....
May 24 17:26:36 <reshwindblade> TSCHAKeee, so you hate apple fanboys and girls :P
May 24 17:26:40 <w00t_> the key is to work to educate, not scorn
May 24 17:26:40 <TSCHAKeee> or trolls...but....there is a special hell for trolls....
May 24 17:28:21 <TSCHAKeee> reshwindblade, I knew Apple when they were a company making 6502 based computers. Their philosophy was always "We do everything ourselves." .... for many years, they were viewed as overpriced, and arrogant.... While I applaud them for their sensitivity to catering to what consumers want, and their attention to design aesthetics, I have a serious problem with their downright draconian company policies which radiate all the way back to
May 24 17:28:22 <TSCHAKeee> their customers.
May 24 17:29:04 <lcuk> TSCHAKeee, why, they worked hard to get there
May 24 17:29:17 <poutsi> but don't overlook their knack for selling the one thing that people seem to want, whatever it is today
May 24 17:29:18 <TSCHAKeee> as a result, I have always had a love hate relationship with thme
May 24 17:29:23 <reshwindblade> yea i know, they just need to put an Apple logo on a brick and people will say it is easier to user and much more nicer
May 24 17:29:38 <w00t_> lcuk: how hard they work is irrelevant, if you object to something, you object to it
May 24 17:29:38 <TSCHAKeee> eh, i have a few stories in that department. they've lied, stolen, and cheated like every other great company.
May 24 17:30:38 <TSCHAKeee> I try to learn everything I can, from Apple...
May 24 17:30:42 <lcuk> w00t_, sure but you dont have to buy their products
May 24 17:30:43 <reshwindblade> i got a better one, i just graduated, my final year project i decided to try an Iphone app ( get my grades + might sell and make some money ). I made it in Flash CS5 beta, haha got banned straight
May 24 17:31:07 <reshwindblade> i did it before they reworked their SDK of coz
May 24 17:31:09 <TSCHAKeee> what I would likke to see, is more companies striving to reach their sense of UI implementation.
May 24 17:31:24 <w00t_> lcuk: sure, but your comment seemed to indicate that because "they worked hard", nobody was entitled to disagree with them, which is something I'd also disagree with :p
May 24 17:31:34 <reshwindblade> nokia phones (the low end ones) UI is the best
May 24 17:31:39 <reshwindblade> everyone knows how to use it
May 24 17:31:47 <reshwindblade> compare to Sony Ericson, Samsung
May 24 17:31:55 <lcuk> +100000000000
May 24 17:31:56 <poutsi> TSCHAKeee, it's not that there aren't people striving, but politricks is killer
May 24 17:31:57 <reshwindblade> too bad not for their higher end phones
May 24 17:32:02 <poutsi> ...or so i've heard :)
May 24 17:32:59 <TSCHAKeee> poutsi, many people refuse to study what makes a good user interface...much less how it relates to other parts of a whole.... look at the vast number of open source/free software projects.
May 24 17:33:15 <TSCHAKeee> most of them simply don't understand how to do it
May 24 17:33:23 <TSCHAKeee> most of those who don't understand, refuse to learn.
May 24 17:33:36 <TSCHAKeee> most who refuse to learn, already think they know how to do it.
May 24 17:34:09 <reshwindblade> i disagree abit, most open source project sometimes just refuse to listen. They develop to suit the developer needs not the user
May 24 17:34:23 <TSCHAKeee> and i agree with that, as well
May 24 17:34:58 <poutsi> ahtisaari said in an interview that nokia should heap on the ux polish in the future
May 24 17:35:01 <poutsi> i hope it happens
May 24 17:35:25 <reshwindblade> when Ubuntu decided to move the close, maximize and minimize to the right side (instead of the standard left), alot of people were against it yet the developer insisted it was for the best
May 24 17:36:13 <w00t_> put the shoe on the other foot
May 24 17:36:41 <w00t_> it could well be that a change (like that) could - in the longer term (esp. with future plans) end up being for the best
May 24 17:36:57 <w00t_> but, as a general rule, you can't tell people things like that, because there is always a barrier to change
May 24 17:37:21 <reshwindblade> unless you are Steve Jobs, then you can tell people
May 24 17:37:25 <reshwindblade> ;)
May 24 17:37:45 <w00t_> well, no, you can't, I think they likely *would* have issues if they introduced significant change like that
May 24 17:37:51 <w00t_> but as was indicated earlier, that generally doesn't happen
May 24 17:38:47 <reshwindblade> btw i just noticed twitter accounts for Maemo = some japanese person, and MeeGo = some unknown guy
May 24 17:40:01 <poutsi> w00t_, I for one hope that people continue to try and, yes, sometimes to fail in that regard
May 24 17:40:36 <poutsi> and not just do the familiar comfortable thing over and over :)
May 24 17:40:40 <w00t_> poutsi: change things? yeah, it's very healthy that they do
May 24 17:40:48 <w00t_> without change, what are you left with? stagnation ;)
May 24 17:41:04 <TSCHAKeee> point of all of this i guess.. MeeGo isn't out yet.. it's almost out... and yes.. there is going to be growing pains, confusion, etc.. while everybody adjusts to their roles and gets the ball rolling....
May 24 17:41:25 <TSCHAKeee> all we can do right now, is basically...wait...
May 24 17:41:44 <poutsi> my thumbs are sore from all the twiddling
May 24 17:41:47 <TSCHAKeee> (for the users, that's waiting on releases.. for the devs, that's waiting on code drops, and then doing shit with them)
May 24 17:41:50 <w00t_> and in the meantime, talk bullshit on irc like we always do =)
May 24 17:42:27 <TSCHAKeee> but if you want to know what's going on, you have to watch the lists
May 24 17:42:43 <TSCHAKeee> check recent pages on the meego wiki
May 24 18:08:16 <GAN900> w00t_, w00t
May 24 18:08:56 <w00t_> GAN900: GAN900? :)
May 24 18:09:35 <GAN900> w00t_, re talking bullshit on IRC. ;)
May 24 18:09:38 <w00t_> hehe
May 24 18:09:45 <w00t_> hey, I didn't name names! :P
May 24 18:10:17 <GAN900> w00t_, I'm all in favor of it.
May 24 18:10:29 <GAN900> My favorite pasttime, in fact. :P
May 24 18:11:14 <reshwindblade> you know this is all logged right?
May 24 18:11:38 <w00t_> hehe
May 24 18:15:28 <poutsi> http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2010/05/google-feedback-for-android.html upcoming android bug reporting stuff looks pretty cool
May 24 18:18:50 <reshwindblade> u kinda late
May 24 18:19:02 <reshwindblade> anyone who watched Google I/O videos would have been wowed
May 24 18:19:13 <poutsi> ah
May 24 18:19:20 <reshwindblade> it is on youtube you should check in out (not only for Android but other cool stuff)
May 24 18:19:27 <reshwindblade> i recommend part 5 of Day 1
May 24 18:19:33 <reshwindblade> those are some cool stuff
May 24 18:19:50 <reshwindblade> day 2 = all about Android
May 24 18:20:18 <reshwindblade> anyways since we talking about videos
May 24 18:20:28 <poutsi> thanks, gotta maybe skim it tomorrow then
May 24 18:20:31 <reshwindblade> Mashable has one of Richard Stallman's opinion on Androind/Google http://mashable.com/2010/05/23/google-openness-video/
May 24 18:20:34 <reshwindblade> :)
May 24 18:24:47 <poutsi> heh @ second comment
May 24 18:25:03 <poutsi> yeah, what's this stallman guy ever done for us ;)
May 24 18:25:17 <reshwindblade> he created the C compiler?
May 24 18:25:22 <reshwindblade> i think
May 24 18:25:47 <Tm_T> reshwindblade: FUD, but he has given us many good rants!
May 24 18:25:49 * Tm_T hides
May 24 18:26:07 <Tm_T> s/FUD/false/
May 24 18:26:07 <infobot> Tm_T meant: reshwindblade: false, but he has given us many good rants!
May 24 18:26:09 <reshwindblade> hey I hate his opinions too and i USE LINUX daily
May 24 18:26:13 <reshwindblade> lol
May 24 18:26:22 <Tm_T> reshwindblade: I don't hate his opinions (:
May 24 18:26:27 <reshwindblade> but we need people like him, he is a devil we hate but also a devil we need
May 24 18:26:31 <reshwindblade> :)
May 24 18:26:43 <reshwindblade> i believe there must be a mixture between Free + Closed
May 24 18:26:48 <reshwindblade> richard only wants totally free
May 24 18:26:50 <Tm_T> not saying that I like either but ...
May 24 18:27:04 <reshwindblade> RMS if you see his speeches in RL
May 24 18:27:04 <Tm_T> there's no such thing as "totally free"
May 24 18:27:14 <reshwindblade> he gets very defensive easily
May 24 18:27:23 <reshwindblade> i had the pleasure of having coffee with him
May 24 18:27:44 <reshwindblade> he kept nagging on how my Linux (ubuntu) had proprietary junk in it
May 24 18:27:47 <reshwindblade> haha
May 24 18:28:17 <reshwindblade> trust me, if you meet him in real life, give you 10mins with him, you will want to kill him
May 24 18:28:37 <poutsi> that's true of a large portion of the smartest people i know
May 24 18:28:44 <poutsi> smartest software people at least
May 24 18:29:08 <Tm_T> reshwindblade: well, did you have?
May 24 18:29:15 <poutsi> well, not perhaps exactly literally true as in *actually* kill but they certainly can be annoying
May 24 18:29:17 <reshwindblade> but i respect RMS contribution in the past, if not for him we wont have such cool desktop OS and mobile OS now
May 24 18:29:27 <poutsi> unless one can distance oneself from the debate
May 24 18:30:04 <reshwindblade> and yes I had coffee with him sitting accross of me, Tm_T
May 24 18:30:15 <reshwindblade> he kinda likes to debate and force his opinions on you
May 24 18:30:31 <Tm_T> reshwindblade: no, I mean did you have proprietary junk?
May 24 18:30:33 <Stskeeps> like most of his fans..
May 24 18:30:33 <Stskeeps> :P
May 24 18:30:39 <reshwindblade> yes
May 24 18:30:46 <Tm_T> reshwindblade: shame on you!
May 24 18:30:48 <reshwindblade> to him Ubuntu's kernel itself is that junk
May 24 18:31:01 * Tm_T huggles his nvidia binary drivers & stuff
May 24 18:31:06 <reshwindblade> coz he said Linus Torvalds has put some prorietary junk inside the kernel
May 24 18:31:31 <reshwindblade> seriously if u follow him you must only use Free Software Foundation approved Linux
May 24 18:31:46 <reshwindblade> like Maemo, Moblin, MeeGo all cannot exist according to him
May 24 18:31:49 <poutsi> that shouldn't really be surprising :)
May 24 18:32:08 <reshwindblade> Ovi store (or Intel's App Up store) will 100% be closed
May 24 18:32:11 <poutsi> maybe you should've asked him where all the big hurd distros are then :)
May 24 18:32:15 <reshwindblade> according to him this is wrong
May 24 18:33:03 <reshwindblade> FOSS.my 2009, even the KDE and Gnome developers warned me he is an ass, I didnt listen taught it was cool to go have dinner with him
May 24 18:33:07 <reshwindblade> LOL
May 24 18:33:23 <reshwindblade> he says MySQL, Debian = bad stuff
May 24 18:33:58 <reshwindblade> anyways mine wasnt so bad
May 24 18:34:07 <reshwindblade> the guy beside me had windows vista on his laptop
May 24 18:34:18 <reshwindblade> it was a sheer joy to see him got blasted :D
May 24 18:34:43 <Tm_T> reshwindblade: I think he had used to it, using Vista daily is like getting blasted
May 24 18:35:00 <Tm_T> or that's my short experience anyway
May 24 18:35:28 <reshwindblade> after XP, i changed to Ubuntu, so I wouldnt know, I only troubleshoot vista/7 for friends, and it is a pain
May 24 18:36:29 <reshwindblade> actually i think 50% of people here will be on Mac/Linux
May 24 18:36:38 <reshwindblade> thats what I noticed most "pro" dev use
May 24 19:26:00 <JayElOpia> hello everyone
May 24 19:26:10 <pupnik> huhuhuyhy
May 24 19:26:22 <JayElOpia> Newbie here
May 24 19:31:21 <JayElOpia> hello
May 24 19:41:34 <JayElOpia> hello everyone
May 24 19:41:41 <reshwindblade> hi
May 24 19:42:39 <reshwindblade> anything?
May 24 19:44:50 <JayElOpia> yeah whats going on?
May 24 19:45:00 <reshwindblade> what you mean by that
May 24 19:45:31 <JayElOpia> reshwinblade just queried u
May 24 19:45:34 <JayElOpia> check
May 24 19:46:09 <reshwindblade> sorry dont understand what you mean
May 24 19:47:20 <JayElOpia> im currently chatting wiv u in private
May 24 19:47:23 <JayElOpia> check
May 24 19:48:06 <reshwindblade> i dont think you ar in private
May 24 19:48:51 <reshwindblade> my lame IRC clients doesnt allow it
May 24 19:49:00 <JayElOpia> ooo i c
May 24 19:49:01 <reshwindblade> just ask any question here
May 24 19:49:06 <JayElOpia> pardon me then
May 24 19:49:09 <reshwindblade> ill answer if i can
May 24 19:49:11 <reshwindblade> :)
May 24 19:49:15 <JayElOpia> so what u done meego?
May 24 19:49:46 <reshwindblade> i have done nothing, but MeeGo is preparing for a preview release soon, hopefully next few days
May 24 19:50:11 <reshwindblade> might be may 31st hopefully
May 24 19:50:33 <JayElOpia> ok
May 24 19:50:53 <JayElOpia> i thot they already had stuff for folks to download and play with
May 24 19:51:10 <reshwindblade> got but it is the "core"
May 24 19:51:12 <reshwindblade> no UI yet
May 24 19:51:26 <reshwindblade> i would suggest wait few more days for the UI to be added
May 24 19:51:31 <reshwindblade> much better to play with
May 24 19:51:39 <JayElOpia> ok Lol!
May 24 19:51:44 <reshwindblade> there is stuff you can download from the site today
May 24 19:51:48 <JayElOpia> will be patient then
May 24 19:51:51 <reshwindblade> but that one is for "pure geeks"
May 24 19:51:59 <reshwindblade> think of it like a terminal/shell
May 24 19:52:02 <JayElOpia> hmmmn
May 24 19:52:05 <reshwindblade> unless you want play with that
May 24 19:52:13 <JayElOpia> well i dont mind
May 24 19:52:23 <JayElOpia> dnt need to be a geek to try...
May 24 19:52:30 <JayElOpia> wt ya fink?
May 24 19:52:48 <reshwindblade> well I am waiting for 1.0 (which hopefully few days more)
May 24 19:52:58 <reshwindblade> but if you really cannot wait can always youtube
May 24 19:53:19 <reshwindblade> you can see it here :- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub_cwsJnQps
May 24 19:53:27 <reshwindblade> on what meego is all about
May 24 19:53:32 <reshwindblade> you will get the idea
May 24 19:53:58 <JayElOpia> ok
May 24 19:54:08 <reshwindblade> or you can check out the blog http://meego.com/community/blogs/dawnfoster/2010/meego-presentations-linux-foundation-collaboration-summit there is some presentation (slides + video of the keynote)
May 24 19:54:10 <JayElOpia> its loading...
May 24 19:54:12 <reshwindblade> or just wait :)
May 24 19:54:19 <JayElOpia> ok
May 24 19:54:32 <JayElOpia> ima check out what u given me
May 24 19:54:34 <JayElOpia> and prolly wait
May 24 19:54:37 <JayElOpia> thanks man
May 24 19:54:59 <JayElOpia> hey... isnt there a way we can chat
May 24 19:55:01 <JayElOpia> privately?
May 24 19:55:19 <reshwindblade> there is but for now I am not using an IRC client which supports it
May 24 19:55:47 <JayElOpia> being a newbie and stuff... some folks mite be put off by my naievty
May 24 19:55:52 <JayElOpia> yeah u said so b4
May 24 19:56:45 <pupnik> learn linux
May 24 19:58:08 <JayElOpia> hey where'd he go @reshwindblade
May 24 20:19:22 <Stskeeps> evening DawnFoster, bspencer
May 24 20:25:00 <bspencer> Stskeeps, hello
May 24 20:25:44 <JayElOpia> hi
May 24 21:00:20 <JayElOpia> hello
May 24 21:01:02 <CosmoHill> hi
May 24 21:06:30 <JayElOpia> how do i start developing with or on meegoand what do i need
May 24 21:08:02 <CosmoHill> I think you need the SDK creator program
May 24 21:08:48 <happyblob> http://forum.meego.com/showthread.php?t=109
May 24 21:09:18 <JayElOpia> how do i get the program?
May 24 21:10:17 <DawnFoster> Here's some additional documentation on getting started: http://wiki.meego.com/Developing_in_a_Meego_Environment
May 24 21:10:19 <CosmoHill> post 3
May 24 21:10:22 <CosmoHill> *4
May 24 21:10:25 <CosmoHill> hey daw
May 24 21:10:27 <CosmoHill> hey DawnFoster
May 24 21:10:31 <CosmoHill> enjoying the weather?
May 24 21:10:34 <DawnFoster> hey cosmohill
May 24 21:11:17 <CosmoHill> we've had 8 non-stop days of nice weather
May 24 21:11:18 <DawnFoster> we've had crappy weather - cold, rain
May 24 21:11:31 <CosmoHill> I'm predicting the weather will turn crap as soon as school is out for the summer
May 24 21:12:19 <JayElOpia> thanks
May 24 21:12:30 <JayElOpia> if i run into any hiccups
May 24 21:12:32 <CosmoHill> see JayElOpia, we're not evil
May 24 21:12:41 <JayElOpia> i'll be sure to cry
May 24 21:12:47 <JayElOpia> ok
May 24 21:13:57 <JayElOpia> @CosmoHill thabks for the vote of confidence... i was just treading softly
May 24 21:14:08 <JayElOpia> *thanks
May 24 21:20:14 <CosmoHill> ^.^
May 24 21:40:03 <TSCHAKeee> maaan
May 24 21:40:20 <TSCHAKeee> a lot of very pissed off people that flash 10.1 isn't coming to maemo 5.
May 24 21:40:44 <CosmoHill> hmm
May 24 21:40:50 <CosmoHill> I have 10.1 RC and it's goodish
May 24 21:40:53 <Stskeeps> did anyone confirm anything regarding that?
May 24 21:41:16 <CosmoHill> better performance than 10 and doesn't seem to crash as much
May 24 22:20:40 * GAN900 wonders
May 24 22:20:58 <GAN900> Maemo doesn't necessarily mean not N900.
May 24 22:21:27 <TSCHAKeee> *nod*
May 24 22:21:39 <TSCHAKeee> problem is, Nokia has done a bang up job confusing everyone
May 24 22:22:25 <DocScrutinizer> now it's more GAN900 who confuses me with his statement ;-)
May 24 22:22:53 <TSCHAKeee> THE WHITE ZONE
May 24 22:22:56 <TSCHAKeee> IS FOR LOADING AND UNLOADING
May 24 22:23:08 <DocScrutinizer> GO TO THE WHITE ZONE
May 24 22:23:09 <arjan> VIOLATORS WILL BE TOAD
May 24 22:23:26 <DocScrutinizer> IT'S A WAY OF LIFE
May 24 22:23:29 <CosmoHill> WHY IS EVERYONE SHOUTING?
May 24 22:23:46 <DocScrutinizer> TSCHAKeee started it ;-)
May 24 22:23:49 <TSCHAKeee> heheheh
May 24 22:23:50 <TSCHAKeee> :)
May 24 22:24:25 <DocScrutinizer> probably every word of F.Zappa is conceived bold and loud
May 24 22:24:39 <TSCHAKeee> hehehe
May 24 22:24:50 <TSCHAKeee> Joe's Garage FTMFW
May 24 22:24:51 <TSCHAKeee> :)
May 24 22:26:25 <GAN900> TSCHAKeee, yeah, they're good at that.
May 24 22:26:43 <GAN900> They love flashy announcements
May 24 22:26:54 <GAN900> but they hate saying anything negative.
May 24 22:27:09 <DocScrutinizer> GAN900: what is ""Maemo doesn't necessarily mean not N900""?
May 24 22:27:11 <GAN900> and sometimes they hate saying anything at all.
May 24 22:27:25 <GAN900> +Not at the beginning.
May 24 22:27:34 <DocScrutinizer> aah
May 24 22:27:36 <DocScrutinizer> k
May 24 22:28:13 <TSCHAKeee> i look around, and I see
May 24 22:28:16 <TSCHAKeee> hordes
May 24 22:28:18 <TSCHAKeee> of pissed off people
May 24 22:28:31 <DocScrutinizer> ol
May 24 22:28:35 <DocScrutinizer> :-P
May 24 22:29:06 <TSCHAKeee> i mean, pissed off users are a given in any community
May 24 22:29:19 <TSCHAKeee> but nokia isn't doing anything to put out fires.
May 24 22:29:51 <DocScrutinizer> at least they somehow stopped blowing into it
May 24 22:32:38 <GAN900> lol
May 24 22:32:53 <GAN900> Yeah, well, Nokia as a company still isn't behind Maemo
May 24 22:32:58 <GAN900> So it's no surprise.
May 24 22:33:01 <GAN900> Nor MeeGo
May 24 22:33:10 <GAN900> Anssi the dinosaur
May 24 22:33:28 <GAN900> It's like that Trout Fishing in America song
May 24 22:33:37 <GAN900> except he doesn't have to wish.
May 25 00:53:58 <rykario_> does any one know how to get meego running on the always innovating touchbook?
May 25 00:55:04 <TSCHAKeee> rykario_, it hasn't been done yet
May 25 00:55:54 <rykario_> I am aware that the touchbook is based off of the beagle board but I've made several attempts with those instructions and have had no luck
May 25 00:56:48 <TSCHAKeee> interesting, where are you getting stuck?
May 25 00:58:29 <rykario_> so far I was using the wireless and other files from /etc from the touchbook os (wireless and touch specifically) but I have only gotten megoo to show a boot screen after which it either freezes or stays on that boot screen
May 25 00:58:56 <TSCHAKeee> hm
May 25 00:59:59 <rykario_> frankly though I've had little luck with the device on the whole seems that it has very limited support
May 25 01:03:31 <happyblob> have you tried asking in meego-arm?
May 25 01:04:37 <rykario_> no this is the first place I have asked
May 25 01:05:12 <CosmoHill> cyas
May 25 01:06:18 <happyblob> i think they're working hard towards the n900 at the moment but plan to target more arm hardware in the near future, but i couldn't guess if/when touchbook support would come
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue May 25 02:59:57 2010